Shooting the Model 1894 Winchester in 38-55
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มี.ค. 2023
- Working on a tighter group for the Model 1894 Winchester Crazy Horse Commemorative in .38-55. The factory copper jacketed soft point ammunition does not group well in this rifle, so a new hard cast lead bullet is put through four trials with smokeless powder. The right powder load will increase confidence when hunting wild pigs in Texas in a couple of weeks. I personally like the .38-55. It's big enough to provide the power needed down range, but not so big that recoil can't be tolerated.
Join us on the range for a cold day of shooting in Montana - at least it wasn't below zero.
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I once had a Marlin 1893 in .38-55 and Ioaded it up to about 1,700 fps and really enjoyed it.
Hi from Alberta. I have a 38-55 on the way now that the weather is starting to get more bearable !
I got two 1894's A 25.35. Made 1905. And a 30.30. Made 1907.26" octagon barrels. Great guns.😊😊
A buddy of mine who was a long time reloader and a long time hunter and used all sorts of old and oddball calibers and got me into it some 20 years ago taught me that usually the hotter you make a cartridge, the quicker the accuracy goes away, and I have found that to be true. I would rather give up some speed to make sure the load is accurate. I would back that load of 3031 off, start at just above the minimum and if it's really accurate, stay there and then keep track of the load and add a half grain or so until it starts to spread out in group sizes. I've encountered the same thing when it comes to muzzleloaders. I've seen so many guys who complain about the accuracy of their .50 rifles because they can use 3 pellets and then when they do, the groups are huge. I tell them to back off to 2 pellets and are shocked at how accurate the gun turns out to be. The deer isn't going to be any deader with 100 or 200 fps difference. A friend of mine, same one who got me into reloading, killed a nice black bear with his .38-55 once, using nothing but the factory Winchester rounds. It didn't take more than one well-placed shot. If you want a gun that's a suped up .38-55, go get a .375 Winchester, same gun and based off the .38-55. I killed a whitetail locally with the .38-55's smaller brother, a .32-40 Ballard and in a Model 1894 Winchester. It went 200 yards but bleeding worse than any deer I've ever tracked. He walked until he ran out of blood.
I've got an 1894 Winchester in .38-55, made in 1895 that's got the octagon barrel, full mag. I've had a few of them over the years, first one I had before was another octagon barrel, full mag and then a full round barrel with a button mag from around 1910. The one I have now is a true survivor, the owner who sold it was well into his late 70's, possibly early 80's and he hunted with it his whole life. The barrel, well, on the outside, has a some faint pitting, the receiver the same, even on the lever. The buttstock was off another Winchester that had a pistol grip, no holes even for a buttstock or one added to that, who knows how that got there, same with the forearm. But, the bore and rifling was excellent as is the inside of the receiver. So I cleaned it up, got an older forearm and buttstock, put a Lyman tang sight on it since the rear sight on it was wrong, and took it shooting. It shoots darn near 1 1/2 groups at 50 yards. Right now I am running 265 grain lead bullets with a mild load of 9 grains of Unique powder so the gun isn't pushed too much. It's on the list to go deer hunting. Here in the northeast, the .38-55 was a popular bear cartridge and still is, factory ammo won't stay on a shelf long here, and one of the early desirable calibers in the Savage 1899 rifles was in .38-55, as well as the Marlin 1893's, which were more common here in the northeast than you would see them out west. Eventually I am going to run some mild black powder loads in this gun as God and Winchester intended.
I also have one, serial number in the 24xxx. original patina, not fired much
I just recently purchased a cape gun in 12 gauge and 38-55. I have to say I really like the 38-55. Too bad it's not more popular it's a very pleasant round to shoot.
Hey it got lost after its little sister (.30-30 WCF) went on a deer killing rampage for over 50 years!!!
Parent cartridges are rarely treated right (save .375 H&H and.30-06)!!!
I think the issue is it made more sense as a black powder cartridge where bullet mass is absolute to terminal ballistics. With smokeless velocity was the key to lethality and the .38-55 just came up short in providing something that you couldn’t already do with black powder.
@@danielcurtis1434 I still like the 38-55 better than the 30-30 or the 32 special
Yes Sir, I admire your grit out there shooting in those conditions.
Mine was built in 1900. LOVE it with handloads! Hard cast bullets. Thanks for the video!
Great video showing the challenges of cold weather shooting. Good luck on your hunt!
Thanks Jim. Footage to follow. Todd
25-35 was created from the 30-30, not before. Plus, the first smokeless cartridge in the US was the 30-40 Krag in the 1892 model Krag -Jorgensen
Hi there, don’t want to be disrespectful but I have been shooting .38/55 with cast booklist for many years and the groups that you are getting are no where near the potential for this cartridge. It was originally designed as a target cartridge for Marlin rifles and later adopted by Winchester. A few secrets I will share with you, commonly people make the mistake of loading a bullet that is undersized, you need a bullet with a diameter of .380 “ or even .381 if they will chamber and the bullets must be gas checked for sure. Plain base I have never found to shoot accurately in Winchesters.“ if it will chamber go as larger diameter as possible. Also use exclusively Starline brass it’s thinner than Winchester and use the longer brass again if it will chamber in your gun. I use 21 grains of IMR 4198 as the charge which approximates the original cartridge ballistics.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't impressed either, so I slugged the bore and two things jumped out at me. First, the grove diameter is .380 - like you noted above. Secondly, after slugging the first 8 inches of the bore, the ball dropped about a foot. It took very little force to knock it out into the chamber. That made me sick. I have a choked rifle without a lot of options. I have since purchased .380 copper jacketed bullets. We will see how that goes. Any suggestions? Todd
I Shoot gas check lead bullets sized to .380, .381 if they will chamber in your gun. Never use Winchester brass with these bigger bullets they will not chamber. What you want is exclusively the Starline long not short brass which is thinner and will chamber O K. Also and this applies to all of the more powerful rifle style bullets in lever guns like .45/70, 90, .40/82, .32/40, .30/30 etc, always use gas check bullets with larger lube grooves sized at least .001 “ above bore diameter. Example .45/70 I use a 300 grain cast and gas checked bullet sized to . 459 “ with SPG lube exclusively. I get all of my molds from Accurate molds they can be had in aluminum at reasonable cost and up to 5 cavities so you can cast lots quickly.
Purdy rifle!😃
Thanks Santee. My kid is spoiled. I had an ugly bolt action 410 with slugs back in the day. Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 HA!
Great video Todd I understand your frustration with the load development. We have all been through it. I do like the 38-55 i dont have one but I think it does have some advantage over the 30-30. I myself don't share load data on my channel. The politics of TH-cam scares me a little bit. Keep the great videos coming !!!
I had a origainal 1894 in 38-55 and did the lever action really rattle...loved it.
@@ZREXER1250, I have one made in 1923. 1925 was the last year in 38-55.
I've got a Marlin 1895 in .375 WIN. That's probably pretty close, perhaps that Marlin can even shoot 38-55. I just love the old lever guns. I don't hunt much these days but that round did put down deer fantastic, better than my 30-30. Big and slow works great here in Wisconsin. Nice vids, I really enjoy the channel.
It's great in the U.P. too. My mom was born in Bergland, MI. Todd
First cal 94 Winchester came out with was a 3240 and the 3855
I had both the Crazy Horse and the Legendary Frontiersman , and sold both to get a Marlin 336 CB . The Winchesters were 377 bore, the Marlin around 379. The Marlin is the more accurate with 378 to 379 cast bullets. For target can shoot around 1200 fps but can load to 1700-1800 with 260 cast. I foolishly bought a new Winchester only to realize it was bored to around 375, so sold it . Still have an old 94 with a 18 inch 38-55 with a 38-55 commemorative barrel at 377. Still a work in progress. The 38-55 is just a great cartridge . More pleasant than a 45/70
Nothing wrong with a .375 bore 38-55 or .377. I've read that Winchester factory loads are .375 bore but I've never measured them. I have a 1980 Saskatchewan Jubilee Model 94 in 38-55 which is a joy to shoot. I've been reloading the 38-55 since the mid 80's and get great results with Sierra .375 200 grain bullets. I have also used Speer .375 235 grain bullets and while they are accurate they don't expand as well as the Sierra's. My rifles bore measures .377 and it shoots .375 bullets without any problems.
I have an original 1894- 38-55 black powder only using lead cast bullets it was super leaded up when I got it that's probably what protected the rifling which after I cleaned it was great for it's age also have an original 1895 30-30 and a modern 1895 30-30 . Made in the 1940s
From experience oh, it's hard to chew when you're cold and shivering
As a much younger man I had a friend that collected all of the commemorative Winchesters. For some reason I thought they were all in 30/30? I also thought they came out long before the 80s.They were all fired and not saved as collector items. I was surprised when I looked them up in gun trader and they never became priced as something rare!
You know what is cooler than this? Not much! Thumbs way up.
It is a good cartridge. I don`t think I`ve ever done a shooting video with my Marlin 38-55. Ought to do that sometime this summer.
Thanks Shep. I look forward it. Todd
Great video guys! Someone made a comment about holding the rifle in a consistent manner, I believe that is true but as anyone that has hunted in freezing weather knows it's far more difficult even squeezing the trigger can mess up a shot.
I would try somewhere around 35 Grains of 748 Winchester powder. Another alternative is 4350. They both seem to perform BestThey both seem to perform best in the old 30-30 and a 38-55 I want to try it in a 25-35 also
Good morning DR.. Kesner . Great video my friend, I am watching from Billings, with all your period videos do you ever go to the QUIGLEY SHOOT in Forsyth ? I have been going since 2002 Love it THANK you Frank Marullo.
Thanks Frank. I get humbled enough every day. You guys at the Quigley would put me to shame. I'll work up the courage one of these years! Todd
Try 5744 powder , it works well in these rifles with Heavy bullets
They came out in .32-40 as well that first year if I’m not mistaken.
I'll look it up and confirm. You might to right. Todd
No 32-40 in the Crazy Horse
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 first two calibers were 32-40 and 38-55 followed the next year with the 30 WCF 30-30 followed by the 25-35 and the last one they added was the 32 special
.32-40 is far more scarce these days than the .38-55 on the ammo market.
My Dad had a Steven's model 47 in 38-55. I'm not sure what he was using for powder then that was in the early 1960's. It shot pretty good I killed woodchuck with it some. I still have his loading books I'll have to see what his loads were.
Please let me know! Thanks, Todd
It's cold out, plus you can see him not pulling the trigger slowly. Which is understandable when it's freezing out,still not bad shooting.
Laughed at the bloopers.
Wow, commemorative firearms are usually gawdy and dumb looking but that one is absolutely beautiful. And it being 38-55 makes it so much better.
I agree. Not many get me excited. My son saw the Crazy Horse Commemorative online and loved the look. The surprise gift brought him to tears. Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 hopefully not anytime soon, but when you are gone he’ll cherish it and the memories you 2 had with it for life. I have a 20 and 12 gauge browning auto 5 set my grandpop bought new in the 60’s. My dad learned and grew up on the 20 gauge and an old remington 1100 20 gauge he sold. Then I learned on the same 20 gauge auto 5. The 12 gauge my grandpop hunted with I hunt with now. My dad likes other stuff. But those 2 I’ll keep forever and hopefully pass on. Recently changed all the springs in them so they’re ready for another lifetime.
Absolutely.
I am looking for a 38-55 Winchester, even the Italians are expensive. Next time you hit the range with V-sights or the buck horn sights, try burying the sight, that is where you only see the bottom of the front site in the V notch of the rear site. You groupings will be much tighter.
Howdy guys. Grew up in Deer Lodge so I have done some cold weather shooting myself. I have a couple 38-55’s and have experienced the joy/frustration of them. Did you slug the bore? I have 38-55 with a .376, another that is .379 and a .381. Hmmm maybe get try slugging and go from there. Unique has always been a favorite powder for that caliber.
Thanks Tom, I did slug the bore recently and it's an even .380. I have appropriate bullets on the way and will be excited to see the difference in performance. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 when I saw the groups I was pretty confident that the bullets weren’t big enough. Good luck. I am taking a suppressed Marlin 45-70 takedown to SC for pigs in December. I also have the old levergun disease.
Both of my Commemorative Winchesters grouped poorly with 377-378 bullets. Put a tang sight on one , still nothing great so I switched to the Marlin which is a tackdriver. Better sights , deeper Ballard rifling helps
That 30 grain load of IMR 3031 gave you a decent group. Have you ever used jacketed bullets that gave as good as or better results compared to cast bullets?
Copper jacketed bullet tests are coming up. I've learned quite a bit more about this rifle and look forward to more tests. Thanks for watching, Todd
I had good results with the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.
Thanks Bob, I just got the Lyman book and will take a look. Todd
I am also the caretaker of my Grandfather's 1894 in 25-35 that he carried with him on duty during his time in the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. It was made in 1906.
I have the Crazy Horse also, had it D&Ted for a Skinner peep sight. Shoots high now., got to get a taller front sight.
Steve, I just slugged the barrel at .380. No wonder the .377 factory loads didn't impress me. You might want to slug yours before doing a lot of reloading. I was surprised. Thanks for watching, Todd
I've been shooting .379s, got a new mold but haven't tried any yet, it's a gas check design from lyman
@Steve Julius The bullet I used the trial from Cast Performance can be ordered in .380 and is gas checked. I'm trying that next. Todd
Are you using short or long brass? Up to now I've been using starline short brass, but have on backorder the long brass
You could quickly loose your confidence with groups like that, but sometimes they happen, have you tried it at 50 yds? The cold weather does not help either, I wonder if that 3031 is affected by the temperature, just keep trying, there is a sweet spot there somewhere. Chris B.
We've done some work at 50 yards and thought we were ready for 100. Thanks for watching Chris. Todd
The third target - the last shot that hit 6 O'clock on the bottom of the paper was caused by a change in grip - he removed his hand from the fore-end and changed the dynamics of the resonance of the rifle. Keep the same hold and pressure for each shot!
Good catch. I wasn't consistent with my hold. Thanks for commenting, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 You're welcome.
Hi Todd
Just something worth looking at watching that last group. Obviously both of you guys were cold and tired so its hard to concentrate. Watch how some shots he holds the forend down into the rest and the rounds land low. Then others he takes his hand off the forend and the rifle recouls without downwards pressure on the forend and shots go high.
Its hard to do but every shot is a learning excersize. Im sure you know that to shoot the tightest groups you must duplicate the hold shot to shot.
Mabe on another day reshoot the 30gr load fresh on a warmer day and have your son concentrate on holding exactly the same for every shot im sure he will halve the group size
Happy shooting from Australia
Excellent point. And you are correct. There will be a new test soon. Thanks for watching, Todd
In my experience using cast u must use a bullet sized to match bore, better yet a couple of thousandths larger. BUT the chamber has to be cut large enough to accommodate the cartridge with THAT size bullet. Some rifles, using some brass have smaller chambers that will not allow a proper diameter lead bullet!
I'd love to have a levergun in .38-55.
I noticed that the rear sight was on the top step...
Realistic test in very rough conditions. I have one and I'll try the 30 brains of 3031 and see how it performs.
Would getting a better slug to shoot help. Perhaps something with a little bit of a boat tail, or better ogive?
You're right. I'll continue to try. Todd
I love my old 96 it was made in 1897
Enjoyed the video fellas 30 grain looks like a winner sorry your son had to freeze to do this
He needs to toughen up anyway! Thanks for watching, Todd
Nice reply. Reminded me of something my Dad would have said. RIP Dad. Miss you.
Until you have a consistent method, you’ll not get it settled in. Either hold the forearm with consistent pressure or allow it to be free.
Yep, you're right. Todd
What bullet were you shooting? What is your groove diameter on that Winchester?
Well, I have since slugged the barrel at .380. The bullet in this test was .378. I don't know why I didn't slug it right anyway and avoid the poor performance. Sometimes you just get ahead of yourself. Grove diameter bullets coming. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Be sure to use Starline brass so the .380 bullets will chamber. They won’t work with Winchester brass and their thicker necks. The newer Winchester rifles (Miroku) have .375 barrels to use jacketed bullets. With .380 bullets and Starline brass (try the shorter brass first) you will get that puppy dialed in real sweet.
Great channel too!
@@RidgeRunner86 Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, all I have is Winchester brass. I'll track down some Starline. Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356, You can try soft alloy bullets like 30-1 lead-tin. They should obturate better to fill in the grooves.
You need to get your facts straight, in 1894 it came out in 32-40 and 38-55, in 1895 the smokeless 25-35 and 30-30 came out.
get yourself some varget . keep your velocity between 15 and 1700 ft per second . no more .. youll tighten those groups right up !!
The buckshot nature of those impacts is not the rifle's capability.
Put a scope on that, operate in comfortable temperatures, practice that trigger, and watch the group tighten.
Alternately you could run a tang peep sight with a very fine hole (if you have good vision).
Yes to all except the scope. I just can't do that. The day will come as I age however. Thanks for watching, Todd
Geez not sure how to even be a fair judge on this particular set of results. If its me shooting I'd be back to the drawing board. However there is something with my bad eyes I think I noticed. Review for me or I guess for you actually. It appears that as the barrel warms up the impacts are walking down. Not sure. With editing not sure if this is the actual wait time between shots??. I'm not a big 3031 fan yet I think we can do better. Now I'm new to creating content so I'm not sure the utube answer but I thought load data is frowned on. I would not be afraid though to work the load .5 grains at a time and watch for pressure signs. Also I know first hand rocky mountain cold breeze and weaping eyes.
Good luck
Mountain man
Thanks Steve, I wasn't overly pleased either. I did edit out a lot of wait time between shots, so I don't think a hot barrel is the problem. I like half grain idea and will try that next time. Also remember that we were at 100 yards in the wind with a freezing 19 year old. He's a whale of a cowboy action shooter, but never a precision or long range shooter. Still, I think he did okay considering the conditions. There is no doubt we need to keep working at it.
TH-cam doesn't like reloading videos, but providing data on what we're shooting is okay. Thanks for watching, Todd
@Frontier Western Heritage cool I have a lot to learn on this video utube thingy. So far my my videos been more rants a talk and no range work if you look you'll see why. I have some odd range stuff coming soon. Like a friend ask me to investigate cartridge I never heard of. So I'm going to try and replicate it. 70-150 Winchester.
Mountain man
I'm pretty sure those have a .379 bore and your. 378 bullets are too small
Lever Fever, People kept telling me to slug the bore and I didn't feel it was necessary - stubborn I guess. But I finally gave in and the bore slugged at .380. Yes, I'm an idiot. Back to the drawing board with the proper bullets. It's one thing to learn a lesson. It's another to learn it on video. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 no worries every one who shoots the 38-55 learns the hard way
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not holding the rifle correctly in the rest, groups are all over the place. to hold the rifle correctly you must rest the rifle on your hand not the front rest. this is because the rifle consists of two parts, not one part. front handguard and rear butt stock.
Why in the world would anyone just buy a gun like that, just put it in a safe and never shoot or even hardly see it?:
Not this cowboy. My son shot the mule deer of his life with it last November. Thanks for watching, Todd
for your imfro, Chief Crazy Horse was a Lakota, leaser of the Oglala band. Why would anyone make up a Indian, do not become a history teacher, hang on to your day job name
not exactly a confidence builder
We will do better. I'm going to try a new bullet on a better day. Thanks for watching, Todd