1886 Winchester Black Powder Trial with Larger Bullet
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2023
- The first trial a year ago with the 1886 Browning in 45-70 with black powder loads resulted in unstable bullets puncturing the target sideways or "keyholing" at a mere 50 yards. Two factors might have played a role. Bullet size may have been too small and velocity too high. With another Texas pig hunt coming up, it was time to re-evaluate and try a larger bullet along with reduced velocity in an attempt to stop the bullets from tumbling. Several loads are tested with a 405 grain bullet in .459 backed by Fg to FFFg black powder. Keyholing stopped and accuracy was best with the slower powders at 100 yards. Check out the video and see what worked and what did not.
Hey Doc, I’m actually surprised you are getting 70 grains of any powder in those cases. I shoot a lot of 45-70 in black powder, either 1.5, 2, or 3F & with anywhere from a 405 grain to a 465 grain bullet, myself and other Black Powder club members can typically only use about 58-60 grains without having to compress the powder too much! My 1886 at 50-100 yards with about 58-60 grains does well. Love your videos!!
I have had great results with the Olde E 2F and 3F power as compared to regular Goex. Better velocity and much cleaner burning in both .44-40 and my .54 flintlock. I haven’t used black in the .45-70 but like your idea of annealing the case necks to get a better chamber seal and less blowback into the action of an ‘86. Perhaps will have to make smoke with my Browning ‘86 SRC. The RCBS FNGC @315 grains is very dependable sized @.459 in both .45-60 and .45-70 although the .45-60 usually uses an Accurate Molds 300 grain bullet, sized @.459 with SPG. Thanks for your informative posts.
I looked but didn't find any videos of how you're loading your rounds. I shoot 45-70 out to a thousand yds at full size Buffalo targets, my 1886 mfd in 1887 in 45-70 and several 44-40 rifle and pistols.
1- I use thin brass like Winchester for my 1886 and aneal the necks as this modern brass is thicker than original and will not easily hold a full 70 grns buy volume or seal the chamber with black powder loads. The bullet will exit with less damage to it the case will seal the chamber and your brass will last longer. I also de bur the flash hole. Mostly as I place a sheet of newspaper cut with about 9mm casing size to keep powder out of the primer.
2- I use a .030 poly wad over the powder charge to protect the base. Different thickness and materials may work for you but I was looking for more powder room and it works for me.
3-try bullets cast 20-1, some use 30-1 or even pure lead. I cast my own so a little tin helps fill out the moulds better. Make sure you use a black powder lube on the bullets. The hard wax smokeless lubes will not keep your fouling soft. Spg is a easily found one and many recipes to make your own online. I'm lazy so I just buy it.
4-most of my fellow shooters as well as I find magnum primers help tighten up groups but try it for yourself.
5-goex works but I find it fouls much worse than old Eynsford. I shoot this brand mostly 2f in my rounds unless I really want to splurge and use Swiss 1.5. That I save for long range matches mostly. I also find the compression needed is different for all these brands. Goex needing the most were Swiss seems to like almost none.
6-use a drop tube when filling your case.
Thanks Howard, you should be able to find my Loading Black Powder 45-70 from February 2022. The only thing I haven't tried is the newspaper over the primer. This is the second mention of that and I might try it. Thanks for commenting, Todd
Great video Doc keep ‘‘em coming.
I had an 1876 by Chapperel that wouldn't group or even hit the paper. I tried a bunch if different things but it wouldn't shoot right and I sold it. Those guns are a hot mess to start with. I had many hrs of polishing the external parts to get it as smooth as my Uberti rifles. I did tell the fellow who bought it the issue I had but he thought he could get it to shoot right.
Those Browning 86s are nothing but fantastic. Better then most originals because of steel and fit. You can run them hot or mild without worry.
Great video, very informal.
Thanks Robert, I've enjoyed this rifle for nearly 30 years. I understand the limitations over a scoped, bolt action hunting rifle. And I've done fine with it. You just need to know how to stalk game and get close enough for an ethical shot. I've done alright. Thanks for watching, Todd
Gotta toss my 2 cents worth in here....
Couldn't agree with you more on the stalk and ethical kill of the animal!
That IMO is true how to hunting.
I have had an issue with Hornady leverevolution 325 tumbling at 50 yards in my cimarron 1886. I figured their bullets are smaller then others. Didnt think about velocity. Mine also shoots low
It could be bullet diameter. High velocity doesn't effect copper jacketed bullets as much. Thanks for watching, Todd
With the sled you really have to maintain consistent cheek weld and a tight seat on the artificial shoulder, I wonder how homemade 2F BP would do with this? This may sound crazy, but this video relaxed me. Please make and post more!
Thanks Chacote, There was enough recoil to move the sled around, so your point about a consistent cheek weld is well taken. I haven't stepped into the world of making my own powder. But the way things are going, it might be our only alternative. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 If you decide to do it, check out the tutorial at Hoffman's Reproductions, he taught me to do it and I am not that bright. Much easier and less expensive than I would have ever imagined.
So, this question is for the experts. I have taken up black powder loading for my cartridges in 45 Colt (rifle and pistol), my 45-70 lever gun and my 38-55 lever gun. Now, I understand that different black powders are different and I fully understand the difference between granulations. My question pertains to compressing the powder. When doing so, don't you destroy the granulations and just have one big hunk of black powder packed down in the case? I am hard pressed to get 70 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 into my 45-70 case. When I compress it as far as I must to be able to seat the bullet without misshaping it, the black powder seems really packed in there, which is why I posed this question on compression!
Hey Doc, for the record, my Cimarron 45-70 prefers smokeless powder, factory type loads. As a matter of fact it is a tack driver when I load smokeless for it, probably the twist rate. I have been working on bullet/powder combination for best accuracy with black powder. I have settled on a Lyman, self-cast, hollow point bullet and the case is loaded with 55 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss or Schuetzen and I get about 5 inch groups at 100 yards. But then again I am getting old, my eyes ain't what they used to be and I have "war nerves". The bullet mold from Lyman is number 457122 with a cast weight of about 330 grains. Is it a magnum round? Certainly not, but I sure wouldn't want to be down range on the receiving end of that I can tell ya!
Now, for all you hard core 3 F'ers, who seem to give the Ole Doc a hard time, I only load FFFg in my 45 Colt pistol cartridges. I am currently working on loads for my 66' Uberti in 45 Colt. You want to hear something funny, it wasn't until I loaded a few period correct loads for the 45 Colt, and shot it out of my Remington Outlaw, that I realized what the old adage "hand cannon" really meant!
Thanks for all that you do on here Doc., all this stuff is so much fun!
Thanks Anthony, I'll take a stab at the compression question. Others may add things I'm forgetting or may have overlooked. I have taken apart original cartridges and found some to be one solid pellet and not resembling the loose powder that was poured in during the loading process. I wouldn't suggest that's the way to go with all calibers, but there is still some space between the powder granules even if it doesn't look like it. The reason for compressing black powder is too force a more uniform burn by keeping the granules in close contact. A very loose cartridge, even though not allowing any gap between the bullet and the charge, often results in more powder being blown out of the barrel before burning. You get a more uniform burn with some compression. How much compression is the question and that depends on the brand of powder. Goex generally performs best when compressed and handles a lot of compression. Swiss generally performs well when slightly compressed and declines in performance passed that point (thus the 55 grains in your load and good performance). The trial and error process to arrive at a great load can drive you nuts, but, on the good side, you get to shoot a lot. If you compress the powder too much, the performance will tell you.
Thank you for your service. I don't know the circumstances of your "war nerves" but I admire and appreciate your sacrifice. Keep shooting.
Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I kinda figured as much. The bigger the granulation, the less likely you are to be able to fully compact it. You know, 55 grains was a historical 45-70 load used in the carbines. I am having fun learning what was once common knowledge. Amazing how we humans forget things even only as far back as 140 years. No wonder we don't know how the Pyramids were built!
I digress. I served with the 6th and the 1st of the 17th U.S. Cavalry Regiments, Army Aviation Units with 2 government sponsored vacations, one to Mosul Iraq and the other to the lovely Jalalabad Afghanistan, no, that is not a tongue-in-cheek statement. It was lush and green there.
I appreciate your channel and your information. For example, the use of powder compression dies. I didn't even know such a thing existed. Even grumpy old dogs like me can still learn something new, if even under duress!
I'm learning as I go sometimes as well. I've actually learned a lot from viewers. Thanks for jumping onboard. Todd
Did you drill the flash hole larger ?, personally I use 4198 and speer 350 jacketed in both of my miroku 1886s, dead on hold at 100yds on the 2nd elevator on the rear sight.
Looks good!
keep up the good shows and the info.
Thanks Peter. I appreciate you watching, Todd
I'd be interested to know what your smokeless hunting round is for this rifle, I have one myself that I plan to hunt more with this year. Sounds like you've had good success with whatever your using.
Really like your vids. I have been asking vid guys why they have tiny chambers (cylinders) sizing down the bullets to way under bore size. Yes I realize that they are cap and ball but they still use black powder and lead slugs just like that or any other rifle. Most of these guns are shooting a .366 bullet in a .374 bore. the reasoning being that with a round ball the small chamber size makes the bullet 'oval' for more surface area but that is not right since we also shoot conicals. My thinking is that if you have 15 thou to play with (difference between land dia and groove dia.) then why only use 4-6 thou? when I ream a cylinder I am getting 10-12 thou engagement into the rifling.
And btw I like the way you test. you seem to look at it in an analytical way and try to eliminate variables for fairness.
What range, distance not location, were you shooting at? Are the bullets hallow base? I like the new intro.👍🏻
All the tests were at 100 yards. With some load tweaking and practice, I think I could much better. The bullets were solid based, but I have a couple of hollow based bullets to try soon. Thanks for watching, Todd
Well that was a whole lot better than last year's shots, that was a good comparison thanks
Thanks for watching Terry. It's good to know you're out there. Todd
Wonder how the Eynsford with a over powder wad would work? Interesting…
Thanks D, I do have a fiber wad under the bullet. Good question though. Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Have never worked with black powder in the 86 but just bought the saddle ring and will try it. Have some Old Enysford so I’ll give it a try it.
I’ve noticed a .459 or even a .460 diameter has been my best size. The .459” better a large improvement over the .458. Great videos
I slugged the barrel at .459. I might try hollow base bullets next. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 that sounds like a good option also.
My barrels slugged .458 which they do work for hunting ranges ( 100 yards ) but just were not as accurate. Look forward to the next video
Great video Doc It that a miroku manufactured 1886? It is a beauty
Chris, It is a Miroku. They do very good work, but it does bug me that Made in Japan is on the barrel of the Brownings and Winchesters. At least they're not made in China. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I agree with you on both accounts. We both remember when "made in Japan" meant sup par quality. It is crazy that so many companies sub out their manufacturing out of the country. My mom worked at La-Z-Boy chairs for 28 years when they shut down and moved to Mexico for a bigger profit. Corporate greed is going to be the death of our country. Keep the great videos coming. If you ever make down to central Utah I would love to buy you lunch. I live right on the road the goes to Moab and Lake Powell. We could have some great conversion about our love of the old west guns and life style.
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the previous bullet being too small in diameter. I'm curious as to why you didn't load up 5 with 1.5f? To my mind, that would have been a true test of the new bullet.
Interestingly, my '73 in .44WCF strongly dislikes 3f, tolerates 2f, but absolutely loves Goex Cartridge. Of course, Cartridge hasn't been in production for many years, I just happened to pick up a small amount from an estate sale.
Thanks Tom, I tested 1 1/2 F Swiss last year and it was the only test that showed any promise. I didn't run it again this year due to testing other loads. Thanks for watching, Todd
I am all about this kind of stuff. I have several original Winchesters. 92 and 94 and 73 and a couple 86. By the way I just subscribed...
Thanks Johnny, You're Winchester collection makes me jealous. Thanks for watching, Todd
I recently put a marbles tang sight on my 1873 Wincheste (44-40) and it made a huge difference in the groups I was getting at 100yrds It seems to facilitate getting a better sight picture and consistent point of aim. It might be worth a try and see if you get any improvement in groups. Just a thought.
I love a tang sight. But look toward the end of the video where there's a couple of pictures where the heavy recoil caused the tang sight to tear into my face bad enough that I took it off the 1886. I might try to fit it on my 44-40.
Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 LOL, I should have watched the video to the end. My bad. I have a MVA Soule style sight on my 45-100 and it gets me now and then, but not as bad as what happened to you. I probably have about 20 years on you so a few cuts and scrapes just add to the "character" of an old face.
I'm curios to know if you're using an over powder wad? I used to use vegetable fiber wads & they worked well. I tried poly wads which I believe are a lot tougher & my group size shrunk considerably. My load for years Has been 67.5 grains Swiss 3F, poly wad, 535 gr. Lyman Postell through a 1 in 18 twist Pedersoli sharps. I get similar possibly better results in my Browning B.C.P. R. in 40-65 caliber Paul Jones 400 gr. bullet , poly wad, 62.5 grs. Swiss 3f. I hope this is useful to you. I always enjoy your content Best regards, Coe.
Thanks Coe, I am using fiber wads and have never tried poly wads. I thought they would melt a little and stick. Thanks for the tip. Todd
Did you ever try for your smokeless load AA 5744 powder they claim it is milder I want to find a pleasant load for the 45-70 and I got a couple Lee molds one is 340 grain the other is a 405 grain and I am hoping to get a good load that is not punishing too shoot
My smokeless load is punishing. I might try your suggestion, Todd
In a modern 86 load 50gr 3031 behnd a hard cast....it will wake you up compared to bp
Yes, I shoot 50 grains of 3031 with a copper jacketed bullet. It hits you hard. Thanks for watching, Todd
I know you don’t want to hear this question Todd, so you don’t have to go into detail, but are you metering the 70 grains by weight or volume. Tom KC3QAC
Thomas, I measuring by weight and then pouring the charge into the case through a 2 foot drop tube. Surprisingly, the volume in the case from powder to powder wasn't all that different. Good to hear from you, Todd
As a matter of interest have you tried powder coating your lead bullets? Chris B.
I have not. I actually don't know much about it. Thanks for another thing to study up on. Todd
Are you measured buy weight or volume? What is barrel length? Would love to see similar test in 1885 Highwall. Thanks for the video
I'm measuring by weight and then running the charge through a 2 foot drop tube into the cartridge case. The barrel is 26 inches, so I bet it's close to your Highwall. Todd
Interesting about the tang sight! I was just about to fit one on my 1886 in 50/110, I may think about that a bit more now, surprising just how much difference you are getting with a grain size change, and upping the bullet diameter has cured the keyholing, what size are you shooting with smokeless? Chris B.
Chris, The smokeless bullet used is a 400 grain Speer at bore diameter of .457. But it's copper jacketed and I suspect this modern version of the 1886 was designed for copper jacketed bullets. I group very well with those smokeless rounds. Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I rather suspected that would be the case, most "modern" versions are made to S.A.M.M.I. spec, and shooting a lead projectile through them does not usually bring instant success, I think that is why we enjoy loading for these guns as they are not an easy result, chamber throating is another thing that often causes complications. Stay warm! Chris B.
Kinda rough on those casings letting them bouncy bounce off of the concrete singing a little tune....?? Just kiddin'....!!
Cases...!
It's a joyful sound. Todd
How bad does the BP foul the action? Do you have to totally break it down to get it clean?
Dogbone, I replied a while ago and now my computer says I did not reply. So maybe this is a repeat. I annealed the brass to soften the case neck. That allows the case to seal to the chamber walls when fired. The fouling goes down the barrel and doesn't land much in the action except for a little from cycling the action. I don't have to disassemble the gun. I've done that before and found nothing to clean. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Thanks Todd. First or second response, I appreciate your reply.
Using a sandbag rest under the fore end, my Chiappa 1886 groups 10 shots into a one inch hole at 30 yards with either Pyrodex P (fffg) or Pyrodex RS (ffg), Lee .459 HB bullets cast from range scrap, pan lubed in beeswax, lamb tallow and candlewax. The rifle slugs at .457. I'm using a Lyman tang sight and a Pedersoli tunnel front sight fitted with a ring within a crosshair insert. It still groups within a 2 inch group with the stock buckhorn and blade front. I'd love to shoot it over longer distances, unfortunately 30 yards is all we have at our range. I'm in a county in the UK where real black powder isn't readily available and can only be purchased with an explosives licence. Pyrodex is classed as a propellant, not an explosive and therefore doesn't require one.
Good shooting, Wasp. I am happy to hear you can still put rounds downrange in the UK regardless of the powder. My rifle slugged at .457 as well and I look forward to trying some hollow base bullets soon. Thanks for watching, Todd
You might have jinxed yourself with the mention of poor availability of the Olde Eynsford.
Thanks Riley. I think you're right. Would you mind testing the Henry with some black powder .44-40? Let me know, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 that'd be fun. I need to get out and do some shooting! I might try to get out with the trade gun tomorrow or Tuesday to check my turkey pattern
How hard are the bullets?
Steve, Good question. I didn't cast them, but, from what I know, they're 20-1 tin. I need to get a hardness tester. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I use my thumb nail. If I can mark it easy it is soft, if it takes effort to mark it it is solid. I I can not mark it it is hard.
Raise the ramp one notch....
Yep. But I didn't want to mess with the sights when testing five different loads. I will when I settle on one. Thanks for watching, Todd
If you shoot at a deer, it'll be the flyer.
Never liked Goex. 1.5 Swiss is my go to.
lee hollow base bullet,your bullet is still too small,needs to carry more lube also
Ed, I'm going to check that out. I have a sampling of hollow base bullets, but not sure if there's enough for a full test. If so, I'll post it. Todd