@@tomyunker3368 I think he probably just said that backwards, considering the Colt SAA was around 87 years before the song, or he could just have meant the term "Big Iron".
@@batman88ironman Not a Dragoon? The old wives tale I heard was that Marty was inspired to write that song after seeing a Colt SAA at a gun shop in North Hollywood. But it makes more sense that a "Big Iron" would be a Walker or Dragoon. Even a 1861 Navy would feel like a "big iron" compared to the 1873 Army.
If I was just a normal guy I would carry my SAA if 45 Colt and my rifle would’ve been in 44-40. If I was a gun fighter or a law man or outlaw then hell yeah I’d have my pistol and rifle in the same caliber! In fact, as a civilian, I would probably carry some kind of trapdoor or single shot rifle with some more power over a lever gun.
@@robertwoodroffe123 Anyone who does that deserves the results of an idiotic move like that. Where did you get carbine from me writing rifle? Maybe you mistook the 2 words???
You just answered my question I have asked many black powder folks for years. All of the 'experts' have told me the .45 Colt is clearly more powerful. Now I am confident that my choice of 44-40 does not make me a wimp. I don't know how this video hit my feed, but I'm now subscribed.
My mother still has her grandmother's 44-40 Colt from when she worked with a Wild West Show in the '20s. Solid lockup clean hand gun. To get a matching carbine would be very fun. That old revolver sparked a fondness for single action in me as a kid that is still alive and well at 61 years old.
Knowing the provenance of your vintage SAA is special; knowing the provenance pertains to your very own family is sweet, priceless. We learned some of the trick shooters in the 'wild west shows,' 'medicine shows' at times used shot in a smooth bore to equate a more amazing achievement in marksmanship and trick shooting. We'll assume your 44-40 is not one of those as surely you would have mentioned that.
Love the 45 but probably would have gone for the 4440 for the interchangeability back then, probably wouldn't have been doing much reloading back then either, today 45 Colt all the way, better rims, no weak shoulder to collapse sometimes when seating bullets, more energy,bigger hole the 4440 isn't even 43 caliber is it.
Great video and information about the comparison of both rounds.👍 As a kid of eight, in 1958, my great uncle began to teach me firearms. His pistol of choice was an 1884 Colt SAA in 45Colt. He loaded with black powder, as he said smokeless powder was just a passing phase.😉 We'd reload with an Ideal 310 tool, and cast the old Ideal 454190 255gr bullet. Lubed with a blend of beeswax and mutton tallow. Sized also with a 310 die. And we loaded 40gr of DuPont ff powder. Imagine an eight year old shooting that.😲 Well, 65 years later, I'm still shooting that load now and then in my 45s. Reckon if it ain't broke don't fix it.
I happened to have chosen neither. 38-40 is what my Marlin 94, Winchester '73 & 92, and Colt Lightning & 4-3/4" SAA are all chambered in. (all of them are over 100 years old, and are all great shooters) 🙂👍
My original Winchester 1892 is in 38 WCF as well... Just a lovely rifle and beautifully performing cartridge. I had difficulty reloading (resizing) the paper - thin cartridge cases. Mine was made in 1892, so I don't shoot her much!
@@kbjerke No reason to be shy of shooting it. Just use black powder or cowboy loads only. As far as protecting it from harm, just don't leave the action open or hammer cocked for storage. I found out the hard way that the hammer spring didn't appreciate that on the Lightning rifle. Fortunately, I was able to track down an original replacement spring.
Great video, Doc. I love the 45 Colt cartridge but if it was 1880 and I had the money for both a pistol and a Winchester I suppose I would lean towards the 44/40
Yep, that would be my choice as well, but I'm no expert on late 19th century firearms. I just like tradition. I believe I read somewhere that during the late 19th century, the 44/40 was responsible for killin' more critters than any other chambering. 😁
Back in the day I’d have gone with the .44-40, for sure. The original .45 Colt wasn’t an option for lever guns back then because of its puny rim, but that issue has long since been rectified. The .45 Colt being a straight wall case, it’s less fussy to reload, and we’ve got good bullet selection, too. So, .45 Colt is just more practical in today’s world, for both wheel guns and lever guns.
I have both in Hand gun And Lever gun . I have a Navy Arms in 44-40 as Well as a Japanese 44-40 Lever gun and A 45 Colt Ruger Vaquero and A 45 Colt Lever Gun that all shoot quite well
It wasn't about the rim - Winchester wasn't about to chamber the 45 Colt in its rifles because of patent issues. The Colt cartridge wasn't available for other makers to chamber in their firearms until the patent expired. Look up "Winchester/Colt feud".
What I particularly appreciate about Doc Kesner is that he does not simply reproduce the "shooting" in sober evaluations, but also somehow makes it imaginable through his comments.
This is a very apples to apples comparison, well done sir! Both 5.5” barrels, both 40 grains, both 2F powder. Much more even comparison than more TH-cam videos.
Finally! I've red a bunch of comments and not a single one of you used that none existent 45 Long Colt moniker! I really appreciate that. Knowledge is power. Keep it up.
Sir, I am happy for a chance to subscribe. Your stuff is educational, very much so. At 76, I thought I knew my single action revolvers, but you showed me I do not. Particularly, I knew nothing of what is meant by the "black powder frame." Although I have several Ruger single actions for hunting, this video convinces me to get a Uberti clone and use it exclusively with black powder. Thank you.
Thanks for the video Todd. Very interesting. I think back in the day I would have went with the 44/40. Definitely advantageous to have 1 cartridge for both firearms.
Navy seal buddy said to me once his choice of cartridge would be .44 magnum because he could carry a pistol and rifle in the same caliber. Said he used BAR in country
I will stick with .45 , it is a proven killer and after shooting everything under the sun , the bigger bullet usually does more damage. Anyway my lever action Henry carbine is 45 long colt also so I'm good on both good points. Good video and information.
An interesting discussion. Thanks. I will add that I had a talk once, many years ago, with my late father about the 45 Colt, 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges. My late father who was born in 1924 in south Texas knew men who fought during the Mexican revolution, 1900-1910, and the subsequent Cristero War from 1910 until 1920. Those men informed him of their preference for the "Carabina Treinta" or winchester 30-30 (rather than the 30-40 Krag) and the 38-40 Colt revolver. Not commonly known is that the 38-40 has a 40 caliber rather than a 36 caliber bullet like other 38 cartridges yet was loaded with 40 grains of black powder originally. It bears mention, at this point, that 44 caliber cartridges, even today, are actually 43 caliber while 45 calibers are true to that description. The 40 caliber bullet loaded into 38-40 cartridges at the turn of the 20th century generally were between 165 and 180 grain bullets. Thus, with only 165 grains of lead pushed by the same 40 grains of powder as the other two loads, the 38-40 demonstrated superior velocity with a similar diameter bullet and velocity means explosive power. On the other hand, the famous gun writer of the 60s, 70s and 80s, Skeeter Skelton, wrote often of Colt SAA revolvers and their heritage cartridges including these three discussed. He wrote, as I recall, that these three cartridges all bear the same base diameter and dimensions. Thus, one could fire the other two cartridges inside the chambers of a 45 Colt revolver. He remarked, again as I recall, about firing a 38-40 in a 45 Colt would split the case and send the bullet "bouncing" down the barrel with little accuracy but with a warning loud report. Thus, there was yet another advantage to having the 45 compared to the others in a time and place of limited ammunition supply.
44 caliber bullets most commonly measure .429 thousandths. The energy on target is a product of the mass of the bullet (weight) and the speed at impact.
Got to say .45 Colt been a favorite for a lot of years. Mostly used a mild smokeless load in my 1st model Dakota it might not have quite as much thump as the 40 grain BP load. In my unofficial survey so far no one wants to get hit with a 750 fps 250 grain lead bullet at all😅
While I agree about the .45 Colt I think your comment about “no one wants to get hit…” is a tad silly as no one except a liar or a complete fool wants to get shot with a round of ANY caliber! From folks who know from experience that getting shot HURTS I’ve been told to avoid the experience regardless of the caliber used.
The rim of the original .45 Colt was far too small to work in the Winchester. So if you wanted to use one kind of ammo in both weapons, the 44-40 was the only option. It was called the "Frontier Model" The .45 was the "Peacemaker."
Thanks Joseph, You're correct. I didn't go through that info this time, but a Winchester in .45 Colt did not exist historically for the reason you describe above. Thanks for bringing it up. Todd
that is a common myth ... but ... since the 45 colt with the same rim works in modern winchesters with the same chambers just fine, that is not the reason. the reason winchester did not market the 45 colt (and no one else did either) is because it was a proprietary cartridge for the u.s. military at the time. that is also why s&w did the schoefeld cartridge. mike venturino does a good write up on that subject, so does john taffin.
@@grayman7208 Was there any legal reason Winchester couldn't adopt the proprietary .45 Long Colt army round? Companies certainly adopted the .50-70 and .45-70 army rounds.
I was a young man back in the ‘50s with a paper route, still it took me 8 months to save up enough to buy Ol’ man Ronstadt’s Merwin & Hulbert Pocket Army for $55 (I had to help my Mom out with our rent which was $25 a month back then.) I thought it was the .44 S&W, but turned out to be the .44 WCF DA version. The Ronstadts would break open a box of Black Powder .44-40’s and sell the individual cartridges for 18 cents a piece, which was pretty expensive! I carried it in a Hand Tooled holster made in Nogales Mexico for many years, it went off like a bomb and made a huge cloud of rolling smoke! I wasn’t able to pair it up with a .44 WCF rifle, but had many adventures with it and a Winchester model of 1903 ,22 RF rifle. Later in the Marines I bought a 6 ½” Ruger Flat Top in .44 Magnum from a Marine in need of money and eventually paired it up with a Winchester Model 94 in .44 Magnum and finally had my matching Carbine and similarly chambered pistol. To my surprise the rifle was a bit of a disappointment and was replaced with a scoped Husqvarna rifle in .35 Whelen. When I go to sleep at night I still find myself reaching to touch the old familiar grip of the Merwin by my bedside and often wake up having relived an adventure with it and the old self loading rim fire in my dreams….
Todd this is a great video. As much reading as I have done, it seems the .45 Colt in a 7.5" barrel had a velocity of 1000fps. Elmer Kieth wrote about a cowboy in Idaho who pulled his colt .45 and shot a Grizzly in the face at about 30 yds. It was a one shot kill with a lead bullet. It still is quite the handgun and cartridge. Love your costume by the way.
My 1873 Cattleman and 1875 Outlaw are both in 45 Colt with 7.5" barrels. My friend bought a beautiful Henry Yellowboy also in 45 Colt. The 45 Colt is the only way to go for us but our problem is finding 45 Colt ammo in our area and we don't reload.
@@robertonavarro7713you should start reloading. Components are reasonably available online now. The .45 Colt is a very simple round to handload for and you get a lot of value by doing so since you can make ammo for much less than you can buy it.
You don't realise how lucky you are in America ,here in the UK we lost our pistols. I was a Smith advocate having a mod 14 ,19 and 29 but one of my favourites was my friends Webly in 0.455 ,superb accuracy but no idea of the ft/lb .Great video
I loved your comparison video, thanks for that. The results are what I expected. I've owned a Uberti 1873 deluxe rifle in 44WCF with a thirty inch barrel for decades now. It's fitted with a marbles long range tang sight adjustable for windage & elevation. The accuracy is outstanding which makes it a joy to shoot. I also have a Uberti black powder frame 1873 colt replica with a 7.5" barrel, in the same caliber, it's also very accurate. They make a great combination. Colt & Winchester made them first & you can't argue with their collectible value but Uberti makes some very fine clones.
Thanks for the nice video. I have a 1st Gen Colt SAA in 32-20, 5 1/2”. It was my grandfathers who was a cowboy out in Colorado at that time. My father was also born in Colorado and they eventually moved to Michigan where I was born and still live, 77 years later. I sent a request to Colt and paid for the history letter. I understand the cut off for black to smokeless powder was in the 117,000 range. My Colt is in the 122,000 range, made in 1901. It is in beautiful condition, missing some blue and case hardening finish, no rust, all original. I still shoot it occasionally with cowboy loads and light reloads.
Velocities: .44 WCF seems fairly consistent with the black powder load. One notes all the chambers of a revolver have a higher or lower average than others. Usually within a range that shows which is the 'fastest'. The .45 Colt was also respectably consistent. I used to shoot 'Cowboy' at that time I had a .44 WCF (made by Jager, now defunct) and a Rossi reproduction of a Winchester 92 (they don't make .44 WCF rifles anymore to my knowledge). Simplified the ammo supply problem. Now I have a 'Cimmaron" (made by Uberti) version of a Model P in .45 Colt. None get much use anymore. I think I prefer the .45 Colt in honor of Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and William - Hopalong Cassidy - Boyd. Obviously a matter of preference. Good solid video. I liked it.
Back when I was shooting cowboy action (full loads not mouse farts) I found that the 44-40 was much cleaner, especially in the Win 73's. The bottle neck sealed much better than the straight walled 45 Colt.
I see you still have your incredible teaching abilities. I used to own a 44-40 Marlin rifle. It was the Sweetest shooting rifle I've ever fired. It even sounded great. So yes I would go with the 44-40 Rifle and revolver. I dearly miss the program. The time we spent there was some of the most Fulfilling time in my life. I pray you and yours are doing well! Best Wishes! M.H.
The first Colt SAA's were chambered in .44 American and tested by US Army Ordinance in that caliber. It was the same chambering used in the S&W American revolver previously purchased by them. The Colt out performed all competitors but Army Ordinance requested chambering in .45 to match the bore of the Springfield Rifle. That was the birth of the .45 Colt Cartridge.
Great video! Another difference in the BP frame, is sight picture. The BP frame has a 'pinched' rear sight, and a thin blade front sight. At least the diffeence is there in my Uberti replicas. More precise aiming IMHO with the BP fame. I wouldn't want to be hit with either load. Thank you so much for the comaprison testing!
Great video, thank you. As far as the muzzleloader aspect with crossover ammo. In the military sector it was called an officers musket. The average officer and often noncommissioned officers would be issued a handgun that was smaller caliber then the standard issue musket. They would then go to a government certified smith and have a musket made to match the handgun.
Thank you for the awesome video. I enjoy watching your channel. You definitely need to make more hunting videos with the firearms you use on your channel. It is nice to see antique firearms used or clones. Keep up the good work. Learn a lot watching your channel.
Good video, I guess it turns out as Paul Harrell might say, the difference isn't enough of a difference to make a difference. I guess it would come down to personal preference and or availability of the other.
Of the two calibers, the only one I’ve fired was the .45 Colt - a black powder load from an 1880s manufacture 7 1/2 inch SAA. No idea how it chronographed ,but it certainly felt powerful - to me somewhere between a .357 and .41 mag. And not helped by the blackstrap sticking out about an eighth of an inch because the wood grips were so worn and shrunken. My dad has an old no- name Spanish copy of a S&W top break double action in 44-40. It doesn’t work as the main spring is likely broken, but the latch mechanism seems solid suggesting that the S&W versions would have been sufficiently strong enough to handle 44-40. I couldn’t say how much the gun was shot. It had a fair amount of wear to its nickel finish as it was owned and purportedly carried by one of his uncle’ father, who early one actually worked punching cattle. Anyway, I’m guessing it was shot at least enough to break the main spring. My dad’s uncle gave it to him when he was five or six. It wasn’t operable then. Dont know if it had even worked when his uncle was young. As for what I’d carry if I’d been around back then? I wouldn’t be surprised if I owned at least one of each depending on what I was doing - just because I like firearms.
The straight case 45 colt is easier to resize than the tapered case of the 44-40 for reloading . But the tapered 44-40 case chambers smoother in a rifle than the 45 colt . The rim design of the cases is different and sometimes the 45 colt doesn't extract as well in the rifle .
I would love to see a chronographed head-to-head-to-head comparison in cartridges loaded with a common smokeless, actual BP, and a BP substitute like Pyrodex.
Great video Sir. I myself would have to go with the 44wcf for my rifle and revolver, since Winchester didn’t produce a lever gun chambered for 45 Colt until 1985. But I do have a mid 90’s Model 94ae trapper chambered in 45 Colt which I do intend on doing a video here very soon. I have two original model 73’s chambered in 44wcf and I have a Cimarron MP523 in 44wcf as well. I really love the 44wcf cartridge.
I'm a huge 45 Colt fan. Carried a S&W 25-5 for a number of years when I was LE. I cowboy shoot with the 45, both pistols and rifle. My favorite caliber along with the 22.
My First Generation (1884 built) 44-40 came to me in pretty sad shape - broken hammer notches, no ejector housing, 98% of the nickel finish gone. It was a gift, so getting the rather expensive replacement parts for it wasn't too painful. Fortunately, it wasn't shot much and the cylinder, bore and frame are in very good condition. I've restored it mechanically, and it shoots very well with a load of 36 grs. of Pyrodex P and a 200 grain bullet. 44-40 is a complete pain to handload - the cases collapse at the slightest hint of misalignment with the dies. That aspect alone would probably make me chose the 45 over it.
Both of those are good stoppers. I grew up using Cooper’s Short Form (so named because it was a simplification of Hatcher’s formula for stopping power). He used bullet weight times velocity (not squared) times bore area in square inches, then knocked off the extra zeroes. 20 was “passing.” All due respect to Roy Weatherby, but velocity isn’t everything, and FPE isn’t the whole story. Great comparison!👍
I just discovered your channel and *had* to subscribe. I have been a fan (and shooter) of 45 Colt for many, *many* decades. While I admire the interchangeability of 44-40 ammunition between rifle and pistol in the 1880s, (and had I been there, I would have made that choice) all of my Single Action pistols are in God's Caliber, 45 Colt. (God's *other* caliber is 45 ACP) . Back in the 1990s I had a Winchester 1894 carbine chambered in 45 Colt, and I enjoyed shooting it. Stupidly, I let it get away to a "friend." Recently I found a New Old Stock Marlin 1894 Cowboy Edition in 45 Colt and I've never been so thrilled to have a complete and complementary set of firearms now. It has been my dream to compete in CAS, and now I'm ready! LOL Thank you for your video, I will be checking out all your other ones! Best wishes to you!
A very interesting and fun video with good info and I Thank you Kindly! Lovely pistols they are! You have a great channel! Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Nicely done comparison! From my experience, when used in a rifle or carbine, the .44 WCF really shines! I’ve been shooting and loading for both .44 Winchester and .45 Colt since the late ‘60s. Although I really like both of them, having fired thousands of rounds of them, I’ve found the .44 to be more accurate in both pistol and rifle, especially at ranges of 100 and 200 yards. I’m more of a rifle guy anyway, so today I’m shooting more .44 WCF, than any of the other cartridges I shoot.
When I was looking at buying a few SAA clones I read some of the differences between the two frames and descriptions of them. They were called the Old Model (OM) and the Pre War. The old models had the screw to release the cylinder, the round ejector and also a thinner front sight blade. Don't know if that's the same for every mfgs. gun. I've ended up with all mine being the Pre War design so I never did any comparisons of them. Those are some nice guns you have and a great video presentation on them.
Since folks back then often lived a ways from towns and cities having the same cartridges for both handgun and rifle allowed them to carry a bunch of ammo on their person as witnessed by some of the photos of folks wearing 3.5" - 4" cartridge belts worn above their gun belts. El Paso Saddlery currently manufactures such belts.
If you are shooting Cowboy Action with black powder, the .44-40 tapered case seems to seal better so has less fouling in the cylinder. If you are shooting smokeless powder, the .45 Colt is much easier to reload because you can use carbide dies which do not require lube on the cases. I shoot smokeless .45 Colt loads in my Peacemakers and in my 1892 rifle. BTW, 12 gauge paper cartridges loaded with black powder are fun to shoot!
it would be intresting to see a second video to this not only showing the latter 1880's loading of a 217gr bullet in the 44-40 but also the lighter 45 colt loadings that were offered up, as i understand at one point there was anywhere from 255gr with 40gr of powder down to 230gr with 30gr of powder, and perhaps to see what one would get out of loading 3f powder in them as people could of back then, i personally think at that time the 44-40 would of been the way to go especially if you could of gotten a mix of ammunition loaded for you by a gun smith, giving you loads that worked best for both but also having the ability to use either round in pistol or rifle. now days though i think the 45 colt is the way to go evan loading black powder simply because of the wide arrange of bullet molds and bullets still made for 45 pistol caliber
Thanks for a great video, two of my favorite cartridges. I load both 44 WCF and 45 Colt, both with black powder, and agree that armed with either, you would not be at any disadvantage, other than the mixed ammo issue. I am curious as to how you got 40 grains in the cases. I generally use 30-35 grains (by volume) of 2f Swiss, and that seems to be enough once you throw in a wad and allow for some compression.
44-40 all the way is my choice I feel it's all about being first being on target, if I haven't been misled the 44-40 can also be used in the rifle it makes good sense to me one pistol, one long rifle, one round ,I may be wrong but it sure feels.good in the soul thinking that way! This was an awesome learning video thank you!
Today, I use the 45 LC and +P loads in both my Ruger handguns and 1894 lever, but also love the modern 44mag/special in handguns and lever and the 38/357 in both. If I lived back then, I may have chosen the 44-40 for the same reasons, and especially, if on the trail and back country with no resupply other than my handload tools.
Everyone talking about running same ammo in a rifle and pistol yet they running a 9mm pistol and 556 rifle today. Its ok to have a rifle in a dedicated Rifle cartridge. I'd take a Colt SAA 45 Colt or a SW No3 44 Russian and a Winchester 1876 in either 45-60 or 45-75.
I'll keep my Colt SA .45 long colt firearms, thank you. I also like my .41 magnum, and .44 magnum revolvers. I never cared for the .357, or the 44-40 WCF
Just found your channel, very interesting stuff. After looking at some of your other videos I subscribed. As a. Side note I think it's interesting to look at the older 44.40 and 38.40 loads and see how close they come to the (new) 40S&W loads ! Everything old is new again as they say !! Looking forward to seeing the next installment.
Enjoyed the video. I find the history very interesting. Personally, while I have shot black powder in revolvers, I like most load smokeless when roaming the boonies- or most other places. My SA is a Ruger Bisley (sacrilege some might say, but it has served me well) I enjoy the nostalgia of the old, but the function of the newer. The .45 Colt wins it for me today. I have no use for many of the magnums and have no need for abusing myself. Plus the straighter walls make reloading a bit easier. That said, both of those are undeniably great cartridges.
I really enjoyed your caliber comparison video. I have owned and fired several .45 Colt caliber revolvers, but have never had the opportunity to fire a .44/40. I enjoy reloading, but right now it is very difficult to find brass cases available for purchase in the .44/40 caliber. I can see why the Army dropped the.44 Colt caliber, and went with the .45 Colt. I own a replica of the Colt Richards, type II Conversion in Caliber .44 Colt. Not a very powerful round for sure. Thanks again for your video. I enjoyed it very much.
Great video, very informative. Lucky for us, we have options in the modern world. For me, it's a price point issue. .44-40 is not as inexpensive as it was years ago so .45 it is.
To throw my 2cents in....... I personally will stick with my uberti clone of the 73 44wcf carbine and the uberti colt clone of the peace maker chambered in 44wcf. One ammo works great for up close and personal out to (as of for now) 360-400yrds. Both are shooting 217 gr soft leas bullet being pushed with 35gr homemade powder and homemade H42 primers. Judging from never having a deer run more than 100yrd from where hit at 300 yards tells me I'm close to being right on spot.
Nice comparison with historical cartridges and firearms. I love the .45 Colt, however after I complete my move to Montana from Nevada, I may need to look into acquiring a .44-40 caliber revolver. Thanks sir,
I personally would just stick to 45 colt in modern age and not 44-40 The main reason for the 44-40 having the popularity is because unlike today with standard gun cartridges cartridges where not standardized but made so many cartridges that are now obsolete so finding ammo for your gun wasn't as easy back then as today
1st gen Colt sights were also different than the later generation in that they had a narrow, tapered front blade and a V notch rear sight as opposed to the square post front and a square notch rear of the later models. Also, my Uberti 1st. Gen had a knurled take down screw in stead of the slotted screw. That, I believe, would have been preferable since the six gun would need to be cleaned each time it was fired with black powder to prevent corrosion.
Kent, The black powder frame reproduction I was firing has the pinched sights that you described. I just didn't mention it. Also, while I'm all about historical accuracy, having the cylinder pin retention screw fall out when you're in the middle of the mountains is a real pain. You're more adapt to check the knurled one more often. The cross latch was a big improvement. Thanks for watching, Todd
I went with the 44 WCF starting with a Rossi 92 carbine and repro frontier six shooter and repo Remington 1875 and progressing to original 73 Winchesters and original Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers. One thing I've noticed about the so called "black powder frame". I have a pearl handled Colt Frontier Six Shooter(44WCF) manufactured in 1894 that has the black powder frame. But I also have a Colt 1878 double action Frontier Six Shooter(44 WCF) manufactured in the 1880's that has the traverse cylinder pin lock. The Colt model 1877 41 caliber Thunderer, 38 caliber Lightning, and 32 caliber (?) also used the traverse cylinder pin lock so that system was in use before the smokeless era.
This is a great video and answered a lot of questions for me, many thanks! And now I'm going to blow it no matter how much I don't want to taken as disrespectful because I'm not. This is positive, constructive criticism only ok. Your conversion factor of 450,240 is based on the weight to mass conversion of 32.16 ft/sec², or as you said, accounting for gravity. And I used to know of at least two ballistic websites that use that same conversion factor. However, the number in question is specified in the US Customary standard units as 32.17404 lb (weight to mass, or the same numerical value for our surface standard gravity). That results in a conversion factor of just a bit over 450,436 - and that's why you'll see other ballistic websites using that value (or 450,437 depending on rounding). Anyway, I hope this helps and you don't take it as disrespectful. Personally I enjoy being corrected, it helps me improve but if that's not you, I understand and you can delete this comment with no hard feelings as far as I'm concerned. Anyway thanks again! PS, energy is ½mv², and the conversion is for 1 pound /7000 grains times ½, that's where the 14,000 comes from.
Thanks Ni, No disrespect taken - at all. I have run across other numbers for the denominator, but like your documented number as a credible factor. I'll dig into this a little more. Thank you for commenting, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I managed to track down where the number you used probably came from. Some time back our government Weights and Measures Division (NIST) stopped calibrating for two measuring systems and went strictly metric, with US Customary System units defined by calculating conversions. (As you can imagine, the books absolutely have to balance for international trade and a single international calibration standard makes perfect sense.) The SI value for Earth's standard gravity is 9.80665 m/s². The conversion factor for feet to meters is a nice number, you multiply feet times 0.3048 - but going from meters to feet, not so easy because (1/0.3048) ends up as long string of numbers. Here's the first twelve significant digits - 3.28083989501 - and it goes on pointlessly from there. If you use the first three digits for the conversion, 3.28, you'll get g ~ 32.166 and if you use seven digits you get g ~ 32.17404. I think that's how we got to different g values on different sites. Finally lmao. Anyway, it's not going to be noticeable and few will probably care but there it is if you want to consider it. 🤷🏻♂️ Thanks a lot for being a regular bud about the feedback! 👍😀
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 BTW here's roughly what I used to use for SI conversions - 1 lb / 7000 gr 1 kg / 2.20462262185 lbs ==> 1 m² / (1/0.3048)² ft 1 m² / 10.7639104167 ft² 1 ft-lbf / 1.35581794833 J ½ (mv²) Denominator = 450,436.67979
you need to do the test with smokeless powder and introduce a scholfield with a three and half inch barrel these days they have lever actions in 45 colt great video
The formula I've always used, because it's easyish to remember and accurate enough, is FPS squared * (Grains/100) /4500 = Ft Lbs Energy. For guestimating probable penetration you divide that number by the cross section area of the round to give Sectional Energy.
I load a 270gr with 40gr of fffg Swiss and 240gr and 40gr ffg Swiss, I was really surprised as to the power of them. If you can get ahold of some Swiss, give it a try, a lot more powerful then goex. Nice video btw.
The Colt single-action Army revolver was known as the "Big Iron" made famous by Marty Robins' song, "Big Iron."
I'm 100% sure it was famous long before Marty Robbins was born.
@@tomyunker3368
I think he probably just said that backwards, considering the Colt SAA was around 87 years before the song, or he could just have meant the term "Big Iron".
Colt Walker is big iron on his hip.
@@batman88ironman Not a Dragoon? The old wives tale I heard was that Marty was inspired to write that song after seeing a Colt SAA at a gun shop in North Hollywood. But it makes more sense that a "Big Iron" would be a Walker or Dragoon. Even a 1861 Navy would feel like a "big iron" compared to the 1873 Army.
@@batman88ironman Yes, the Walker was known as "big iron" not the SAA.
I love the 45 colt. But if i lived in the 1870s -1890s 44-40 would be my choice just to go with my rifle.
If I was just a normal guy I would carry my SAA if 45 Colt and my rifle would’ve been in 44-40. If I was a gun fighter or a law man or outlaw then hell yeah I’d have my pistol and rifle in the same caliber! In fact, as a civilian, I would probably carry some kind of trapdoor or single shot rifle with some more power over a lever gun.
@@christophermead9800qrrqqqwwwwwqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqràrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrffffffffffffffffaq
@@johnholder9782 Not sure what language that is, but we’re conversing in American English here. 🇺🇸
That’s so u could blowup ur pistol with carbine load ammo?
@@robertwoodroffe123 Anyone who does that deserves the results of an idiotic move like that. Where did you get carbine from me writing rifle? Maybe you mistook the 2 words???
You just answered my question I have asked many black powder folks for years. All of the 'experts' have told me the .45 Colt is clearly more powerful. Now I am confident that my choice of 44-40 does not make me a wimp. I don't know how this video hit my feed, but I'm now subscribed.
My mother still has her grandmother's 44-40 Colt from when she worked with a Wild West Show in the '20s. Solid lockup clean hand gun. To get a matching carbine would be very fun. That old revolver sparked a fondness for single action in me as a kid that is still alive and well at 61 years old.
Knowing the provenance of your vintage SAA is special; knowing the provenance pertains to your very own family is sweet, priceless.
We learned some of the trick shooters in the 'wild west shows,' 'medicine shows' at times used shot in a smooth bore to equate a more amazing achievement in marksmanship and trick shooting. We'll assume your 44-40 is not one of those as surely you would have mentioned that.
Love the 45 but probably would have gone for the 4440 for the interchangeability back then, probably wouldn't have been doing much reloading back then either, today 45 Colt all the way, better rims, no weak shoulder to collapse sometimes when seating bullets, more energy,bigger hole the 4440 isn't even 43 caliber is it.
Great video and information about the comparison of both rounds.👍
As a kid of eight, in 1958, my great uncle began to teach me firearms. His pistol of choice was an 1884 Colt SAA in 45Colt. He loaded with black powder, as he said smokeless powder was just a passing phase.😉
We'd reload with an Ideal 310 tool, and cast the old Ideal 454190 255gr bullet. Lubed with a blend of beeswax and mutton tallow. Sized also with a 310 die. And we loaded 40gr of DuPont ff powder. Imagine an eight year old shooting that.😲
Well, 65 years later, I'm still shooting that load now and then in my 45s. Reckon if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Outstanding. Thanks for sharing that.
classic old timer - this sissy smokeless, it's just a fad. That's a cool story. Now we got 'men' terrified to touch a gun.
@@khaccanhle1930
Ain't that the truth........ lmao
...any day now smokeless powder will be a thing of the past......
I happened to have chosen neither. 38-40 is what my Marlin 94, Winchester '73 & 92, and Colt Lightning & 4-3/4" SAA are all chambered in. (all of them are over 100 years old, and are all great shooters) 🙂👍
I’ve heard that’s a really cool round.
My original Winchester 1892 is in 38 WCF as well... Just a lovely rifle and beautifully performing cartridge. I had difficulty reloading (resizing) the paper - thin cartridge cases. Mine was made in 1892, so I don't shoot her much!
@@kbjerke No reason to be shy of shooting it. Just use black powder or cowboy loads only. As far as protecting it from harm, just don't leave the action open or hammer cocked for storage. I found out the hard way that the hammer spring didn't appreciate that on the Lightning rifle. Fortunately, I was able to track down an original replacement spring.
@@ElementofKindness Good advice for any firearm. (About the springs.) I do enjoy shooting black powder, just not the cleanup! LOL Best wishes to you!
Why the hell would you be worried about pointing an empty gun at the camera?
Great video, Doc. I love the 45 Colt cartridge but if it was 1880 and I had the money for both a pistol and a Winchester I suppose I would lean towards the 44/40
Yep, that would be my choice as well, but I'm no expert on late 19th century firearms. I just like tradition. I believe I read somewhere that during the late 19th century, the 44/40 was responsible for killin' more critters than any other chambering. 😁
@@fredmullison4246 2 and 4 legged
Love it
Jake, you're everywhere, aren't you!!
LOL
Back in the day I’d have gone with the .44-40, for sure. The original .45 Colt wasn’t an option for lever guns back then because of its puny rim, but that issue has long since been rectified. The .45 Colt being a straight wall case, it’s less fussy to reload, and we’ve got good bullet selection, too. So, .45 Colt is just more practical in today’s world, for both wheel guns and lever guns.
Ammo, brass and bullets are much easier to come by in .45. Sadly.
You stated my exact response. Thanks for saving me the time!
I have both in Hand gun And Lever gun . I have a Navy Arms in 44-40 as Well as a Japanese 44-40 Lever gun and A 45 Colt Ruger Vaquero and A 45 Colt Lever Gun that all shoot quite well
And of the two cartridges, which do you like better . . . and why.?
It wasn't about the rim - Winchester wasn't about to chamber the 45 Colt in its rifles because of patent issues. The Colt cartridge wasn't available for other makers to chamber in their firearms until the patent expired. Look up "Winchester/Colt feud".
What I particularly appreciate about Doc Kesner is that he does not simply reproduce the "shooting" in sober evaluations, but also somehow makes it imaginable through his comments.
This is a very apples to apples comparison, well done sir! Both 5.5” barrels, both 40 grains, both 2F powder. Much more even comparison than more TH-cam videos.
Finally!
I've red a bunch of comments and not a single one of you used that none existent 45 Long Colt moniker! I really appreciate that. Knowledge is power. Keep it up.
Sir, I am happy for a chance to subscribe. Your stuff is educational, very much so. At 76, I thought I knew my single action revolvers, but you showed me I do not. Particularly, I knew nothing of what is meant by the "black powder frame." Although I have several Ruger single actions for hunting, this video convinces me to get a Uberti clone and use it exclusively with black powder. Thank you.
Thanks for the video Todd. Very interesting. I think back in the day I would have went with the 44/40. Definitely advantageous to have 1 cartridge for both firearms.
Navy seal buddy said to me once his choice of cartridge would be .44 magnum because he could carry a pistol and rifle in the same caliber.
Said he used BAR in country
I will stick with .45 , it is a proven killer and after shooting everything under the sun , the bigger bullet usually does more damage. Anyway my lever action Henry carbine is 45 long colt also so I'm good on both good points. Good video and information.
An interesting discussion. Thanks. I will add that I had a talk once, many years ago, with my late father about the 45 Colt, 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges. My late father who was born in 1924 in south Texas knew men who fought during the Mexican revolution, 1900-1910, and the subsequent Cristero War from 1910 until 1920. Those men informed him of their preference for the "Carabina Treinta" or winchester 30-30 (rather than the 30-40 Krag) and the 38-40 Colt revolver. Not commonly known is that the 38-40 has a 40 caliber rather than a 36 caliber bullet like other 38 cartridges yet was loaded with 40 grains of black powder originally. It bears mention, at this point, that 44 caliber cartridges, even today, are actually 43 caliber while 45 calibers are true to that description. The 40 caliber bullet loaded into 38-40 cartridges at the turn of the 20th century generally were between 165 and 180 grain bullets. Thus, with only 165 grains of lead pushed by the same 40 grains of powder as the other two loads, the 38-40 demonstrated superior velocity with a similar diameter bullet and velocity means explosive power.
On the other hand, the famous gun writer of the 60s, 70s and 80s, Skeeter Skelton, wrote often of Colt SAA revolvers and their heritage cartridges including these three discussed. He wrote, as I recall, that these three cartridges all bear the same base diameter and dimensions. Thus, one could fire the other two cartridges inside the chambers of a 45 Colt revolver. He remarked, again as I recall, about firing a 38-40 in a 45 Colt would split the case and send the bullet "bouncing" down the barrel with little accuracy but with a warning loud report. Thus, there was yet another advantage to having the 45 compared to the others in a time and place of limited ammunition supply.
44 caliber bullets most commonly measure .429 thousandths. The energy on target is a product of the mass of the bullet (weight) and the speed at impact.
Got to say .45 Colt been a favorite for a lot of years. Mostly used a mild smokeless load in my 1st model Dakota it might not have quite as much thump as the 40 grain BP load. In my unofficial survey so far no one wants to get hit with a 750 fps 250 grain lead bullet at all😅
While I agree about the .45 Colt I think your comment about “no one wants to get hit…” is a tad silly as no one except a liar or a complete fool wants to get shot with a round of ANY caliber! From folks who know from experience that getting shot HURTS I’ve been told to avoid the experience regardless of the caliber used.
It's just an expression.
@@Jack-xy2pz
A rather stupid one, actually.
Great discussion regarding history and fair and honest evaluation of the two rounds. especially like BP loading
The rim of the original .45 Colt was far too small to work in the Winchester. So if you wanted to use one kind of ammo in both weapons, the 44-40 was the only option. It was called the "Frontier Model" The .45 was the "Peacemaker."
Thanks Joseph, You're correct. I didn't go through that info this time, but a Winchester in .45 Colt did not exist historically for the reason you describe above. Thanks for bringing it up. Todd
Totally agree.
that is a common myth ...
but ... since the 45 colt with the same rim works in modern winchesters with the same chambers just fine, that is not the reason.
the reason winchester did not market the 45 colt (and no one else did either) is because it was a proprietary cartridge for the u.s. military at the time.
that is also why s&w did the schoefeld cartridge.
mike venturino does a good write up on that subject, so does john taffin.
@@grayman7208
Was there any legal reason Winchester couldn't adopt the proprietary .45 Long Colt army round? Companies certainly adopted the .50-70 and .45-70 army rounds.
@@browngreen933
Excellent question! Hope someone knows the answer and will post.
I was a young man back in the ‘50s with a paper route, still it took me 8 months to save up enough to buy Ol’ man Ronstadt’s Merwin & Hulbert Pocket Army for $55 (I had to help my Mom out with our rent which was $25 a month back then.) I thought it was the .44 S&W, but turned out to be the .44 WCF DA version. The Ronstadts would break open a box of Black Powder .44-40’s and sell the individual cartridges for 18 cents a piece, which was pretty expensive! I carried it in a Hand Tooled holster made in Nogales Mexico for many years, it went off like a bomb and made a huge cloud of rolling smoke! I wasn’t able to pair it up with a .44 WCF rifle, but had many adventures with it and a Winchester model of 1903 ,22 RF rifle. Later in the Marines I bought a 6 ½” Ruger Flat Top in .44 Magnum from a Marine in need of money and eventually paired it up with a Winchester Model 94 in .44 Magnum and finally had my matching Carbine and similarly chambered pistol. To my surprise the rifle was a bit of a disappointment and was replaced with a scoped Husqvarna rifle in .35 Whelen. When I go to sleep at night I still find myself reaching to touch the old familiar grip of the Merwin by my bedside and often wake up having relived an adventure with it and the old self loading rim fire in my dreams….
Todd this is a great video. As much reading as I have done, it seems the .45 Colt in a 7.5" barrel had a velocity of 1000fps. Elmer Kieth wrote about a cowboy in Idaho who pulled his colt .45 and shot a Grizzly in the face at about 30 yds. It was a one shot kill with a lead bullet. It still is quite the handgun and cartridge. Love your costume by the way.
My 1873 Cattleman and 1875 Outlaw are both in 45 Colt with 7.5" barrels. My friend bought a beautiful Henry Yellowboy also in 45 Colt. The 45 Colt is the only way to go for us but our problem is finding 45 Colt ammo in our area and we don't reload.
@@robertonavarro7713you should start reloading. Components are reasonably available online now. The .45 Colt is a very simple round to handload for and you get a lot of value by doing so since you can make ammo for much less than you can buy it.
You don't realise how lucky you are in America ,here in the UK we lost our pistols. I was a Smith advocate having a mod 14 ,19 and 29 but one of my favourites was my friends Webly in 0.455 ,superb accuracy but no idea of the ft/lb .Great video
I loved your comparison video, thanks for that. The results are what I expected. I've owned a Uberti 1873 deluxe rifle in 44WCF with a thirty inch barrel for decades now. It's fitted with a marbles long range tang sight adjustable for windage & elevation. The accuracy is outstanding which makes it a joy to shoot. I also have a Uberti black powder frame 1873 colt replica with a 7.5" barrel, in the same caliber, it's also very accurate. They make a great combination. Colt & Winchester made them first & you can't argue with their collectible value but Uberti makes some very fine clones.
Great Video, Finally a good comparison between 44 WCF and 45 Colt, best video I've seen on the subject.
Thanks for the nice video.
I have a 1st Gen Colt SAA in 32-20, 5 1/2”. It was my grandfathers who was a cowboy out in Colorado at that time. My father was also born in Colorado and they eventually moved to Michigan where I was born and still live, 77 years later. I sent a request to Colt and paid for the history letter. I understand the cut off for black to smokeless powder was in the 117,000 range. My Colt is in the 122,000 range, made in 1901. It is in beautiful condition, missing some blue and case hardening finish, no rust, all original. I still shoot it occasionally with cowboy loads and light reloads.
Awesome video!
So basically the moral of the story is, don't play catch with either round.
Velocities: .44 WCF seems fairly consistent with the black powder load. One notes all the chambers of a revolver have a higher or lower average than others. Usually within a range that shows which is the 'fastest'. The .45 Colt was also respectably consistent.
I used to shoot 'Cowboy' at that time I had a .44 WCF (made by Jager, now defunct) and a Rossi reproduction of a Winchester 92 (they don't make .44 WCF rifles anymore to my knowledge). Simplified the ammo supply problem.
Now I have a 'Cimmaron" (made by Uberti) version of a Model P in .45 Colt. None get much use anymore. I think I prefer the .45 Colt in honor of Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and William - Hopalong Cassidy - Boyd. Obviously a matter of preference.
Good solid video. I liked it.
Back when I was shooting cowboy action (full loads not mouse farts) I found that the 44-40 was much cleaner, especially in the Win 73's. The bottle neck sealed much better than the straight walled 45 Colt.
Thanks for the informative and entertaining video. I am a fan of the .45 Long Colt and I have always wondered about the 44-40. Now I know. ≈
I see you still have your incredible teaching abilities.
I used to own a 44-40 Marlin rifle. It was the Sweetest shooting rifle I've ever fired. It even sounded great. So yes I would go with the 44-40 Rifle and revolver.
I dearly miss the program. The time we spent there was some of the most Fulfilling time in my life.
I pray you and yours are doing well!
Best Wishes! M.H.
Thanks Mike, Good to hear from you. Todd
The first Colt SAA's were chambered in .44 American and tested by US Army Ordinance in that caliber. It was the same chambering used in the S&W American revolver previously purchased by them. The Colt out performed all competitors but Army Ordinance requested chambering in .45 to match the bore of the Springfield Rifle. That was the birth of the .45 Colt Cartridge.
Another interesting 🤔 and educational 😃😃 video!! Thanks Todd.
I have been facinated with the Old West since childhood! So glad I found these videos, Thanks for the history.💕🤠
I've questioned this aspect for close to fifty years, thanks for closing it up. I never had a chronograph handy to try it myself.
Great video! Another difference in the BP frame, is sight picture. The BP frame has a 'pinched' rear sight, and a thin blade front sight. At least the diffeence is there in my Uberti replicas. More precise aiming IMHO with the BP fame. I wouldn't want to be hit with either load. Thank you so much for the comaprison testing!
Thanks Rick, You're right. I didn't didn't go through the pinched sight. But that is another differentiation. Todd
Great video, thank you. As far as the muzzleloader aspect with crossover ammo. In the military sector it was called an officers musket. The average officer and often noncommissioned officers would be issued a handgun that was smaller caliber then the standard issue musket. They would then go to a government certified smith and have a musket made to match the handgun.
Thanks Doc.I really enjoy these .
Thanks for the clarity. I lived in Montana as a child and the mountains are in my blood; the Big Sky has always called me.
Ditto.
Thank you for the awesome video. I enjoy watching your channel. You definitely need to make more hunting videos with the firearms you use on your channel. It is nice to see antique firearms used or clones. Keep up the good work. Learn a lot watching your channel.
Good video, I guess it turns out as Paul Harrell might say, the difference isn't enough of a difference to make a difference. I guess it would come down to personal preference and or availability of the other.
Of the two calibers, the only one I’ve fired was the .45 Colt - a black powder load from an 1880s manufacture 7 1/2 inch SAA. No idea how it chronographed ,but it certainly felt powerful - to me somewhere between a .357 and .41 mag. And not helped by the blackstrap sticking out about an eighth of an inch because the wood grips were so worn and shrunken. My dad has an old no- name Spanish copy of a S&W top break double action in 44-40. It doesn’t work as the main spring is likely broken, but the latch mechanism seems solid suggesting that the S&W versions would have been sufficiently strong enough to handle 44-40. I couldn’t say how much the gun was shot. It had a fair amount of wear to its nickel finish as it was owned and purportedly carried by one of his uncle’ father, who early one actually worked punching cattle. Anyway, I’m guessing it was shot at least enough to break the main spring. My dad’s uncle gave it to him when he was five or six. It wasn’t operable then. Dont know if it had even worked when his uncle was young. As for what I’d carry if I’d been around back then? I wouldn’t be surprised if I owned at least one of each depending on what I was doing - just because I like firearms.
The straight case 45 colt is easier to resize than the tapered case of the 44-40 for reloading . But the tapered 44-40 case chambers smoother in a rifle than the 45 colt .
The rim design of the cases is different and sometimes the 45 colt doesn't extract as well in the rifle .
Reloading those thin 44-40 cases can be tricky as they often get wrinkled.
@@chapiit08 Same with 38-40. Or else I'd be shooting my original Win 92 a *LOT* more!
Good info. I'm having a hard time picking between the 2 right now. Good to see that either one is just fine in this demo.
Very well done and informative video. Thanks for making it.
I would love to see a chronographed head-to-head-to-head comparison in cartridges loaded with a common smokeless, actual BP, and a BP substitute like Pyrodex.
I prefer historical comparisons. But you have me curious. Todd
Can understand how gunfighers in the old West could easily miss , the recoil was hugh. Great video ,thanks
Great video Sir. I myself would have to go with the 44wcf for my rifle and revolver, since Winchester didn’t produce a lever gun chambered for 45 Colt until 1985. But I do have a mid 90’s Model 94ae trapper chambered in 45 Colt which I do intend on doing a video here very soon. I have two original model 73’s chambered in 44wcf and I have a Cimarron MP523 in 44wcf as well. I really love the 44wcf cartridge.
What a fun video! Great information too. Not surprised at the outcome though.
Another great video. Love your content.👍🏻
I had a S&W break top in 44-40, with a henry rifle in 44-40. The break top just made my day..top show Doc
I'm a huge 45 Colt fan. Carried a S&W 25-5 for a number of years when I was LE. I cowboy shoot with the 45, both pistols and rifle. My favorite caliber along with the 22.
My First Generation (1884 built) 44-40 came to me in pretty sad shape - broken hammer notches, no ejector housing, 98% of the nickel finish gone. It was a gift, so getting the rather expensive replacement parts for it wasn't too painful. Fortunately, it wasn't shot much and the cylinder, bore and frame are in very good condition. I've restored it mechanically, and it shoots very well with a load of 36 grs. of Pyrodex P and a 200 grain bullet. 44-40 is a complete pain to handload - the cases collapse at the slightest hint of misalignment with the dies. That aspect alone would probably make me chose the 45 over it.
Different brass cases if I remember correctly, A DeLorean, g-20 and a .338 Norma Full auto for those pesky redskins and commancheros
I was reading many years ago that the 45 Colt was normally loaded with 35 grains of black powder. It didn't say whether it was FF or FFF.
Watching carefully, the .45 Colt had a slightly greater recoil arc. Thanks much for the comparison!
Slightly heavier bullet. Action reaction.
Both of those are good stoppers. I grew up using Cooper’s Short Form (so named because it was a simplification of Hatcher’s formula for stopping power). He used bullet weight times velocity (not squared) times bore area in square inches, then knocked off the extra zeroes. 20 was “passing.” All due respect to Roy Weatherby, but velocity isn’t everything, and FPE isn’t the whole story. Great comparison!👍
I had a Ruger Blackhawk and a Henry repeating rifle ... both in 357Magnum , shooting both in 38Special were nice to fire !
Great video Doc For me the 44-40 would be the choice Good luck with your new adventure in AZ
Great video, sir...I own lots of firearms, but now I guess I'll have to add a couple of those beauties. Thank you for covering this issue!
Great audio! Each time I watch this I am impressed by the audio and your voice. Thanks...
I would like to learn the volsitys from a rifle. Great video thanks
I just discovered your channel and *had* to subscribe. I have been a fan (and shooter) of 45 Colt for many, *many* decades. While I admire the interchangeability of 44-40 ammunition between rifle and pistol in the 1880s, (and had I been there, I would have made that choice) all of my Single Action pistols are in God's Caliber, 45 Colt. (God's *other* caliber is 45 ACP) . Back in the 1990s I had a Winchester 1894 carbine chambered in 45 Colt, and I enjoyed shooting it. Stupidly, I let it get away to a "friend." Recently I found a New Old Stock Marlin 1894 Cowboy Edition in 45 Colt and I've never been so thrilled to have a complete and complementary set of firearms now. It has been my dream to compete in CAS, and now I'm ready! LOL
Thank you for your video, I will be checking out all your other ones! Best wishes to you!
Good info. I've always wondered about 44 vs45 I own both in the western 6 shooters. I love both 44 and 45 but prefer the 44
I love to read Western novels and learning about the different weapons of the period is a fun thing to do.
In 1880 44-40 (44WCF). Today 45 Colt because I am a reloader. The 45 Colt is a straight wall case and easy to reload.
A very interesting and fun video with good info and I Thank you Kindly! Lovely pistols they are! You have a great channel! Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Nicely done comparison!
From my experience, when used in a rifle or carbine, the .44 WCF really shines! I’ve been shooting and loading for both .44 Winchester and .45 Colt since the late ‘60s. Although I really like both of them, having fired thousands of rounds of them, I’ve found the .44 to be more accurate in both pistol and rifle, especially at ranges of 100 and 200 yards. I’m more of a rifle guy anyway, so today I’m shooting more .44 WCF, than any of the other cartridges I shoot.
Great video. I have a Ruger .45 Colt Sheriffs model , and a Italian copy in .45 Colt ! I love the cartridge 🦅🇺🇸
That was great information. Thanks
Good comparison of equally good weapons. I have shot both and prefer a cartridge over having to reload
When I was looking at buying a few SAA clones I read some of the differences between the two frames and descriptions of them. They were called the Old Model (OM) and the Pre War. The old models had the screw to release the cylinder, the round ejector and also a thinner front sight blade. Don't know if that's the same for every mfgs. gun. I've ended up with all mine being the Pre War design so I never did any comparisons of them. Those are some nice guns you have and a great video presentation on them.
Since folks back then often lived a ways from towns and cities having the same cartridges for both handgun and rifle allowed them to carry a bunch of ammo on their person as witnessed by some of the photos of folks wearing 3.5" - 4" cartridge belts worn above their gun belts. El Paso Saddlery currently manufactures such belts.
If you are shooting Cowboy Action with black powder, the .44-40 tapered case seems to seal better so has less fouling in the cylinder. If you are shooting smokeless powder, the .45 Colt is much easier to reload because you can use carbide dies which do not require lube on the cases. I shoot smokeless .45 Colt loads in my Peacemakers and in my 1892 rifle. BTW, 12 gauge paper cartridges loaded with black powder are fun to shoot!
it would be intresting to see a second video to this not only showing the latter 1880's loading of a 217gr bullet in the 44-40 but also the lighter 45 colt loadings that were offered up, as i understand at one point there was anywhere from 255gr with 40gr of powder down to 230gr with 30gr of powder, and perhaps to see what one would get out of loading 3f powder in them as people could of back then,
i personally think at that time the 44-40 would of been the way to go especially if you could of gotten a mix of ammunition loaded for you by a gun smith, giving you loads that worked best for both but also having the ability to use either round in pistol or rifle.
now days though i think the 45 colt is the way to go evan loading black powder simply because of the wide arrange of bullet molds and bullets still made for 45 pistol caliber
Thanks for a great video, two of my favorite cartridges. I load both 44 WCF and 45 Colt, both with black powder, and agree that armed with either, you would not be at any disadvantage, other than the mixed ammo issue. I am curious as to how you got 40 grains in the cases. I generally use 30-35 grains (by volume) of 2f Swiss, and that seems to be enough once you throw in a wad and allow for some compression.
44-40 all the way is my choice I feel it's all about being first being on target, if I haven't been misled the 44-40 can also be used in the rifle it makes good sense to me one pistol, one long rifle, one round ,I may be wrong but it sure feels.good in the soul thinking that way! This was an awesome learning video thank you!
Today, I use the 45 LC and +P loads in both my Ruger handguns and 1894 lever, but also love the modern 44mag/special in handguns and lever and the 38/357 in both. If I lived back then, I may have chosen the 44-40 for the same reasons, and especially, if on the trail and back country with no resupply other than my handload tools.
Everyone talking about running same ammo in a rifle and pistol yet they running a 9mm pistol and 556 rifle today. Its ok to have a rifle in a dedicated Rifle cartridge.
I'd take a Colt SAA 45 Colt or a SW No3 44 Russian and a Winchester 1876 in either 45-60 or 45-75.
I'm good with that. Todd
I'll keep my Colt SA .45 long colt firearms, thank you. I also like my .41 magnum, and .44 magnum revolvers. I never cared for the .357, or the 44-40 WCF
Being a traditionalist I would of course chose 44/40. That way it works in rifle and revolver just like it did in the old west.
Just found your channel, very interesting stuff. After looking at some of your other videos I subscribed. As a. Side note I think it's interesting to look at the older 44.40 and 38.40 loads and see how close they come to the (new) 40S&W loads ! Everything old is new again as they say !! Looking forward to seeing the next installment.
And at MUCH lower pressures!
Enjoyed the video. I find the history very interesting. Personally, while I have shot black powder in revolvers, I like most load smokeless when roaming the boonies- or most other places. My SA is a Ruger Bisley (sacrilege some might say, but it has served me well) I enjoy the nostalgia of the old, but the function of the newer. The .45 Colt wins it for me today. I have no use for many of the magnums and have no need for abusing myself. Plus the straighter walls make reloading a bit easier. That said, both of those are undeniably great cartridges.
I really enjoyed your caliber comparison video. I have owned and fired several .45 Colt caliber revolvers, but have never had the opportunity to fire a .44/40. I enjoy reloading, but right now it is very difficult to find brass cases available for purchase in the .44/40 caliber. I can see why the Army dropped the.44 Colt caliber, and went with the .45 Colt. I own a replica of the Colt Richards, type II Conversion in Caliber .44 Colt. Not a very powerful round for sure. Thanks again for your video. I enjoyed it very much.
Great info!
Excellent video and information, I own three SAA colts and love shooting them.
Congrats; we'd love to hear what caliber they are and bbl lengths -- you know, just because that's what we're into.
@@scvandy3129 All 45 long colt,two are 7.5 and one 5.5 one of the 7.5 is nickel plated.
I have both, and the 44-40 is my go-to revolver. Both are Uberti models, and both have held up to many years and roubds.
Nice video. looking forward to seeing other guns and cartridges.
You handle the firearm very well, thank you for the video.
By the way, the .44-40 is the most popular round made in the 1800's up to WW II,,,
Great video, very informative. Lucky for us, we have options in the modern world. For me, it's a price point issue. .44-40 is not as inexpensive as it was years ago so .45 it is.
To throw my 2cents in.......
I personally will stick with my uberti clone of the 73 44wcf carbine and the uberti colt clone of the peace maker chambered in 44wcf.
One ammo works great for up close and personal out to (as of for now) 360-400yrds. Both are shooting 217 gr soft leas bullet being pushed with 35gr homemade powder and homemade H42 primers.
Judging from never having a deer run more than 100yrd from where hit at 300 yards tells me I'm close to being right on spot.
Nice comparison with historical cartridges and firearms. I love the .45 Colt, however after I complete my move to Montana from Nevada, I may need to look into acquiring a .44-40 caliber revolver. Thanks sir,
I personally would just stick to 45 colt in modern age and not 44-40
The main reason for the 44-40 having the popularity is because unlike today with standard gun cartridges cartridges where not standardized but made so many cartridges that are now obsolete so finding ammo for your gun wasn't as easy back then as today
@@MultiDryder Yes sir you got to love the .45 Colt especially for those that hand load. And even standard pressure can be pretty effective.
1st gen Colt sights were also different than the later generation in that they had a narrow, tapered front blade and a V notch rear sight as opposed to the square post front and a square notch rear of the later models. Also, my Uberti 1st. Gen had a knurled take down screw in stead of the slotted screw. That, I believe, would have been preferable since the six gun would need to be cleaned each time it was fired with black powder to prevent corrosion.
Kent, The black powder frame reproduction I was firing has the pinched sights that you described. I just didn't mention it. Also, while I'm all about historical accuracy, having the cylinder pin retention screw fall out when you're in the middle of the mountains is a real pain. You're more adapt to check the knurled one more often. The cross latch was a big improvement. Thanks for watching, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Hey, thanks for responding. 😀
I went with the 44 WCF starting with a Rossi 92 carbine and repro frontier six shooter and repo Remington 1875 and progressing to original 73 Winchesters and original Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers. One thing I've noticed about the so called "black powder frame". I have a pearl handled Colt Frontier Six Shooter(44WCF) manufactured in 1894 that has the black powder frame. But I also have a Colt 1878 double action Frontier Six Shooter(44 WCF) manufactured in the 1880's that has the traverse cylinder pin lock. The Colt model 1877 41 caliber Thunderer, 38 caliber Lightning, and 32 caliber (?) also used the traverse cylinder pin lock so that system was in use before the smokeless era.
acquired a ruger new vaquroe .45 colt stainless steel with the full leather rig and 20 rounds of ammo for 500.00 . It made my day
This is a great video and answered a lot of questions for me, many thanks!
And now I'm going to blow it no matter how much I don't want to taken as disrespectful because I'm not. This is positive, constructive criticism only ok.
Your conversion factor of 450,240 is based on the weight to mass conversion of 32.16 ft/sec², or as you said, accounting for gravity. And I used to know of at least two ballistic websites that use that same conversion factor.
However, the number in question is specified in the US Customary standard units as 32.17404 lb (weight to mass, or the same numerical value for our surface standard gravity). That results in a conversion factor of just a bit over 450,436 - and that's why you'll see other ballistic websites using that value (or 450,437 depending on rounding).
Anyway, I hope this helps and you don't take it as disrespectful. Personally I enjoy being corrected, it helps me improve but if that's not you, I understand and you can delete this comment with no hard feelings as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway thanks again!
PS, energy is ½mv², and the conversion is for 1 pound /7000 grains times ½, that's where the 14,000 comes from.
Thanks Ni, No disrespect taken - at all. I have run across other numbers for the denominator, but like your documented number as a credible factor. I'll dig into this a little more. Thank you for commenting, Todd
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I managed to track down where the number you used probably came from. Some time back our government Weights and Measures Division (NIST) stopped calibrating for two measuring systems and went strictly metric, with US Customary System units defined by calculating conversions. (As you can imagine, the books absolutely have to balance for international trade and a single international calibration standard makes perfect sense.) The SI value for Earth's standard gravity is 9.80665 m/s². The conversion factor for feet to meters is a nice number, you multiply feet times 0.3048 - but going from meters to feet, not so easy because (1/0.3048) ends up as long string of numbers. Here's the first twelve significant digits - 3.28083989501 - and it goes on pointlessly from there. If you use the first three digits for the conversion, 3.28, you'll get g ~ 32.166 and if you use seven digits you get g ~ 32.17404. I think that's how we got to different g values on different sites. Finally lmao.
Anyway, it's not going to be noticeable and few will probably care but there it is if you want to consider it. 🤷🏻♂️
Thanks a lot for being a regular bud about the feedback! 👍😀
@@frontierwesternheritage1356 BTW here's roughly what I used to use for SI conversions -
1 lb / 7000 gr
1 kg / 2.20462262185 lbs
==> 1 m² / (1/0.3048)² ft
1 m² / 10.7639104167 ft²
1 ft-lbf / 1.35581794833 J
½ (mv²)
Denominator = 450,436.67979
Have a Ruger Vaquero in .45 LC.
Very accurate and fun to shoot.
Have even fired 300gr. +P in it.
you need to do the test with smokeless powder and introduce a scholfield with a three and half inch barrel these days they have lever actions in 45 colt great video
The formula I've always used, because it's easyish to remember and accurate enough, is
FPS squared * (Grains/100) /4500 = Ft Lbs Energy.
For guestimating probable penetration you divide that number by the cross section area of the round to give Sectional Energy.
Another great video Doc. I would be interested in a ballistic gel test on the two loads. Happy 4th of july from eastern Utah
thanks Doc, very nice video. If I were shooting, I would have destroyed the chrono after the first shot.
Great video. Very informative. Keep up the great work.
I load a 270gr with 40gr of fffg Swiss and 240gr and 40gr ffg Swiss, I was really surprised as to the power of them. If you can get ahold of some Swiss, give it a try, a lot more powerful then goex. Nice video btw.