True rust removal by a chemist - boosting the performance of white vinegar by electrolysis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ม.ค. 2018
- The main rust removal component active in white vinegar is acetic acid, which makes up 3-7 % of the white vinegar. This low concentration is very inefficient for the rust removal as an acid content but it's performance can be dramatically boosted and improved with electrolysis. in this video it is demonstrated how to increase the performance of white vinegar and the fundamental requirements for having an effective rust removal process in only one hour. The relevance of having two conductors in the electrolyte is explained and demonstrated, and the conductivity of the conductors is compared when thick heavy rust is sealing one of the electrodes. Rust is an inorganic oxide that poorly conducts electricity. The inorganic oxide called rust is also named iron oxide, which can includes many different compositions including FE2O3, FeOH3, FeOOH2 etc. The insulating capacity of these sub phases is determined by the state of the rust and the presence of water inside the rust. For better rust dissolving properties of the acid, a stronger acid with lower pKa values than acetic acid, the acid in white vinegar, is required, see further: video ‘True rust removal by a chemist - acids compared’.
Ättika innehåller ättiksyra, vilket är en miljövänlig syra som kan användas för att sänka pH värdet på en vattenlösning för rostborttagning med elektrolys. Rosten isolerar metallen under och i videon beskrivs hur viktigt det är att man kopplar strömkällan till den rena metallen. Gasen som avges under elektrolysen är vätgas, vilket betyder att reaktionen måste ske under väl ventilerade förhållanden. Om man önskar snabbare rostborttagning så kan man använda starkare syror som lättare löser ut järnet i rosten i lösning.
GREAT video. I'm gonna do this. What stuck me as most importance is realising the difference in conductivity between the rust and the iron.
Great informative video. Thanks for posting this!
Brilliant. Just bought the stuff, and will attempt this tomorrow.
Brilliant vídeo, well done :D
My dad would very much appreciate this video
Brilliant! That's whats my old Öberg files will be put thru tomorrow!
How did the electrolysis work on your files? Have wondered, but have not tested.
Thank you Ken. Im experimenting with rust removal. My idea was to use white vinegar and citric acid (lemon jiuce) but had not thought to combine with electrolysis.
nice experiment
This is the best video by far. Tried this with the "normal" method without vinegar and it didn't work nearly as well as when I added vinegar. Thank you!!!
How much household vinegar did you add per gallon of water
@@ryanwilkinson571 I don't remember to tell you the truth maybe 1cup per gallon?
I had never thought about using vinegar and electrolysis together. Great idea, thanks! I’ve gotten substantial results after simply soaking in vinegar for a few days. This is definitely a step up!
So are we saying just vinegar, or vinegar in water, it's a bit confusing.
I have done m/c tanks in water and washing soda
@@llewvirtue861 If I understand his notes, I believe you can use up to a 5:1 water to vinegar mixture.
Vinegar is never 100% concentration. 3.5% is common, 5% and 9% can be found at the grocery
@@ChuckD595 liters of water 1 liter of vinegar ?! 5:1
Interesting stuff! I like some smart chemical education. Well done! Few more needed after me.
Thanks Thane!
this is a fantastic video and your work is amazing , i subbed to your channel my friend :)
I have had great success with citric acid. It works much better than acetic acid and is more pleasant to handle, I leave the rust item to soak overnight, scrub it off with a brush then leave it for another eight hours or so. I few add a few drops of detergents at the beginning, this improves the process further. I have never tried combining this with electrolysis. It would be interesting to try.
Thank you very much for making such an in depth video on how to do this. I have seen this process done on a lot of other TH-cam channels, but not once have I seen a video explaining how and why it is an effective rust removal method. It's very interesting to me how little acidity is needed to achieve these results. I am going to try this now that I know how. Again, thank you man!
+Richie breit thanks for sharing your thoughts. I tried to get to the bottom of it. Write me here if needing assistance.
@@Ken_Sweden I might have missed it, but how does it compare to just plain electrolysis with soda in terms of speed and efficacy? And just removing the rust not the metal...
Electrolysis simply removes rust just by generating lots and lots hydrogen gas for use as a quick debriding agent (i.e., merely just to loosen up and mechanically dislodge the rust!). So, you'll want to run it at high currents then and also only for a short time too so as to not leave the workpiece in a conductive solution exposed to the air for too long (which will only encourage further rusting)...
I was hoping you would explain the chemistry of what is happening and why it removes rust.
Nice thanks
Bonding of ground best by solder or mechanical clamp to clean surface. In marine world it is critical.
I'm restoring a Ford series 101 Single Bottom Moldboard Plow. It is mega, mega rusty. I've used rust removers, vinegar, salt and pretty much everything else under the sun. I'm impressed with just plain vinegar. It does a decent job. But using electrolysis puts the icing on the cake. I have removed massive amounts of rust from some very big and heavy parts with amazing results. Remember, it's surface area that counts, not mass.
Phosphoric acid works much faster and is still safe. I'm not sure if there is a benefit to acetic acid vs phosphoric
Next, try electrolysis-boosted phosphoric acid, the active ingredient in Naval Jelly.
Nice video)
Hi. I want to try this on a large water tank. I have two questions.
1. I'm considering using some scrap copper as the anode. Should I worry about copper plating occurring on the tank? Some suggest this will happen, promoting fresh corrosion on the finished job?
2. Citric acid seems to be cheaper than acetic. Is it any good for this? It has multiple pka values apparently, hence its use as a buffer. The implications are beyond my grasp of chemistry.
I'm curious. Why would you use a base and an acid for this? Why not just one or the other?
I dont know how to ask this. How could you do this with sheet steel that wont fit in the bucket or is not removable? I bought a school bus and when removing the ply wood floor i found large areas of surface rust, given mostly contained to about 1 foot spots I was wondering if I could rig an electrolysis tank over the rust and watch it go away. I know there are other methods sanding and chemicals but for larger areas I thought of electrolysis.
2 questions. what happens if you use tap water and sodium bicarbonate. 2 what happens if you use 50/50 water vinegar with an electrolyte
Thanks.
But what will happen if you use just vinegar and salt instead of water and salt?
Nice.❤❤❤
Nice 👍 watched and subscribed your channel
how to add vinegar? on liquid with salt
Interesting,
does anyone know if adding Baking Soda with Salt to White Vinegar with possibly add Lemon or Lime Juice in a heated soultion is overkill or effective?
Subscribed! Awesome video but with some remaining questions:
Would weak citric acid work too?
Is the electricity in general fastening every acidic reaction by taking electrons from the iron oxide?
Will chloride gas be produced in higher amounts when using other acids?
Do you have to be careful when using stainless steel as anode combined with acetic acid?
not a chemist, i have had the best results with concentrated lemon juice and salt.
I read never use stainless steel as it turns into a very toxic carcinogenic substance. Hexachloride or something that sounds a bit similar. But it’s bad shit. I got really panicked as I read rebar was best for using as the scrap and had been successfully using that taking them in and out then cleaning up with wire brush sometimes touching the wet rebar without gloves. However as the rebar I was given was well rusty to start I very much doubt it was stainless steel and the fact it rusts up in electrolysis. Apparently some rebar is stainless and most is not
Very interesting video and channel. Enjoyed, liked and joined your community. Have a great day :)
What will be the air byproduct of vinegar and electrolysis? AFAIK water and rock/table salt will result in chlorine gas, which is toxic.
To remove rust inside a motorcycle fuel tank would you use this method or the hydrochloric acid in your previous video?
Also, how would you prevent flash rusting or further corrosion
No I wouldn’t go hydrochloric acid just because of what you mention. Although it shouldn’t be any water in the fuel tank you may encounter humidity and flash rust would become a major problem. Phosphoric acid as in a diluted rust converters would here be the way to go. In case of lots of rust, I would mechanically remove with shaking steel balls before the phosphorus acid treatment, and if it didn’t work. I would go for new tank. Sealers exist but one should remember that petrol is one of the best solvents out there and you do not want dissolved sealer or paint in your carburetor. Thx and good luck
So basically electrolysis just removes rust simply by generating lots and lots hydrogen gas for use as a quick debriding agent (to simply mechanically dislodge the rust away). So, you'll want to run this at high currents then and also only for a short time too so as to not leave the workpiece in a conductive solution exposed to the air for too long (which will only encourage further rusting)...
I use sulfuric acid to lower the ph in my hydroponic nutrient solution. Would that work in electrolysis rust removal solution also?
Yes. You dont need much, you are down on pH 3 by a table spoon in 1 quart (ca 1 liter). Sulfuric is a much stronger acid by its nature.
If you use sulfuric acid in too high concentration it will start eating up the actual metal part as well as the rust. IMO electrolysis is better suited to keep as much as possible what's left of the original metal. Acidic environment will always consume the metal.
Oxalic acid also works pretty well at de-rusting, as is relatively cheap. Add a little hydrogen peroxide to encourage the rust to convert into Iron Oxalate III instead of Iron Oxalate II.... III is more soluble than II, which seems to result in it taking more off... also III a cool green color whereas II is boring brown. I'm considering combining electrolysis with an oxalic acid bath.
any updates on how that went? very interesting idea
@@mattbush315 Very well actually. I've got a few buckets of oxalic acid and phosphoric acid sitting around the shop that I'll throw anything rusty into. Oxalic tends to leave a bit of a residue that needs to get wire brushed off whereas phosphoric will leave a black sludge (ferric phosphorous or somesuch) when it gets used a lot. Both sludge and residue can be cleaned off fairly easily.
@@PeterB12345 did the electrolysis seem to add any benefit? Sounds like the acid works pretty well on its own?
@@mattbush315 Honestly I prefer the acid vats. It's just simple. Throw the part in and clean up when it comes out. The main advantage of electrolysis is that there is no cleanup required. However, if you use fresh phosphoric acid there is no clean up either. I think if you had a whole bunch of parts then the electrolysis would be beneficial. Also if you have big parts you can do a large electrolysis setup that might end up being less cumbersome than huge vat of acid. I mix both oxalic and phosphoric acids to a ratio of 10% acid and 90% water. This seems to work fine without being too aggressive.
Forgive me if I’m wrong Ken but wouldn’t the alkaline neutralise the acid? Thanks for the video. Colin
I’m a bit confused. You are perfectly correct. Alkaline neutralize acid and mixing for example acid, battery acid with diluted caustic soda will make it neutral, ph 7 if in correct proportions. The trick here in the video is that I want to have it acidic because then I don’t clog my electrodes, the iron stays in solution which it only can do it acidic. That’s also why I never use any washing powder as you may find in others videos. Thanks f comment. Write me back again if I didn’t get it. I answer to all comments. Have a good day!
Would an alkaline such as sodium hydroxide instead of an acid work better?
All dissolved rust will just clog the system since it will come out as precipitate and froth. Electrolysis for rust removal will always be easier when acidic. Only acidic solutions can hold your metal ions in the system as suspended for longer times. Thanks for commenting!
Is the Vinegar boosting appliceable if I use washing soda as an electrolite as well, or it only goes with table salt? Thanks!
No it doesn’t work because the washing soda is alkaline and the vinegar is used because it is acidic, mix the 2 and it will be neutral pH - not working
That was my uneducated guess. I've just did my first elecrolysis rust removal - a WWII track link. The method was not beyond expectations, lives up to it's fame (read: takes forever, gives perfect results) - next time I'll try out tabla salt on it's own and than your recipie. Thank You for the answer! @@Ken_Sweden
Hei, ett spørsmål.. her har du kun brukt eddik og salt? +12v ?
+TheMrKalleklev yes. Billigaste ren ättika från Perstorp och salt från Coop.
I haven't tested anything I'm about to say, but I'm curious as to why in all these videos, the leads aren't simply switched to allow the rusted material to act as an anode and slowly dissolve the oxide layer with lower current density with something like, oh let's say, a small stainless or graphite sheet to act as a cathode. I want to believe that doing so would reduce the energy input, time and, if done properly, any addition to lost material should be immeasurable.
Thank you for the video. I wonder if the little vinegar in the solution is contributing significantly to the result at all, because in most other electrolysis rust removal videos, they do not add any acid to the liquid. What do you think?
+Futschikatores It does, no question on that but as you say, the question is how much. If I put it this way, thin surface rust on another piece of car panel goes by just dipping and I can wipe off without the electrolysis going. However for this really thick rust I cannot really say to which extent it compares w the electric rust remove action. Have to do one without, parallel to find out. Good point!
@Schwalbe262 you can go high on the voltage but always stay away from the Amps because they are the dangerous ones. google it and find the limits for your own safety
@Schwalbe262 more power will make the derusting faster, but the result isn't as good. I've done a lot of electrolytic derusting and it seems best to give the parts about 2-4 amps max. These parts are approximately the size of two hands together. I've never used acid, but just sodium carbonate. It works very well, but does seem to leave a black residue that need a scrubbed off.
It also helps to heat the solution. I think this aids the grease cutting action so that the solution can get to the rust.
I will also add that the power that should be applied is proportional to the surface area. 2x more surface area equals 2x more current. Also, the electrolytic action if done right will never take away actual metal. You can leave it in for a week and still have a good looking part come out. Not all acids will do the same.
Is your katode there copper? Does that work just as well as a ferrous material? Does the copper just end up oxidizing green then?
Also, does that mean you can use the same method to remove oxide layers on other metals (like copper)?
It would be nice to have clarification on this.
Yes you are correct on the oxidation of the culler but as more noble it occurs much slower. In the video it was brass.
@@Ken_Sweden Thanks. I think I was initially under the misconception that this process worked by "moving" the rust and that you necessarily had to sacrifice the kathode. As I have learned more I think the kathode oxidation is simply a consequence of ideal conditions for rusting (acidity,oxygen,water,agitation ect.). Correct? So ideally you just want to use a kathode that is as non-reactive as possible - like titanium (or even platinum if you can affford it) to achieve the same result with less mess. I think you had a video on a titanium setup iirc.
Do you happen to hang out on a discord server or similar? I would love to have a contact who knows chemistry to skill-share with (computer engineer, networking, cloud, sysops ect.)
definitely has advantages but you have to dump a lot of watts into it, how does that 30x stronger acid fare if left in the bath for 3 days or a week? I still think the rust laser is the best
+TheDaikashido rust laser s amazing. Acid and electrolysis at the same time is good for rust removal in threads and cavities, however with too strong acid the counter electrode will dissolves..
Thank you for doing these videos. I'm building a setup just like yours. The only "pure" salt I was able to get contains Sodium Silicoaluminate. Will this salt work or do I need to get salt that has no additives at all? Thanks.
+L Larkin thanks for feedback. It wont matter what salt you use. Sensitivity to exactly what’s in the bath is mostly a big concern when plating and attaching metals to your surfaces. It’s soon coming up a simple guide to this as well. So no worries go ahead. Just don’t close the system so hydrogen has gets trapped. Good luck 👍
Built setup just like yours and works great. Have couple questions/issues. (1) The anode is a 1" strip made out of the titanium sheet you recommended. I attached it to the anode plate at the bottom of the rectangular container using steel rivets. Will the steel rivets affect anything? (2) I put the anode at one corner of the container and saw the effect you talked about in your video of the electrolysis occurring faster and with greater intensity in the items nearer the anode strip. If I put another anode diagonally across from the first anode (could do the same with the cathode), will that equalize the field so I get consistent electrolysis throughout the container? (3) I noticed that the anode plate on the bottom, which is very thin, is raised about 1" from the bottom in one area of the container. It's as if something was pushing up the plate from the bottom. My concern is that the raised plate is almost touching some of the items being treated and could cause a short circuit. Do you know what could be causing that lifting effect and how I can eliminate it? Thanks for your help.
And lastly, how can you tell when the process is done? Visual inspection?
Great! 1. Regarding the steel rivets, if they are acid resistant it will take long time before you see any deterioration so you will have plenty of time to replace them if necessary. Im not sure how you got them sitting there without a leak but I have seen plastics rivets on Ebay in HDPE. In terms of affecting the bath, they are unlikely to make any difference. 2. It will compensate a bit, but you will then have a bit less done in the center of the bath. 3. Yes if the titanium in the bottom lifts you should be careful with shortcut, very careful, depending on the current you run. I have drilled holes in mine to avoid stacking of gas there. I hope it helps and visual inspection is what I use, and when the most complicated corner cavities are done, then the rest is perfect. Thanks for your encouraging comments!
Thanks so much.
Can I use a 12 volt car battery with jumper cables instead of a charger? The charger I have will charge a battery but not work with electrolysis.
chevybob Yes but with time your current will drop. A small object, no problem. More acidic better action. Got to be careful though, if I shortcut then I run a fuse, if you shortcut w the battery then you won’t have that fuse. Good luck.
You need to find a manual battery charger then it will work
@@Ken_Sweden Just a little friendly language advice: Native speakers wouldn't use 'shortcut' in that way. The way you've written it makes it difficult to understand. An accidental connection between + and - of a power source is called a short circuit, or just 'short' for brevity.
So I would write your sentence "if I shortcut then I run a fuse, if you shortcut w the battery then you won’t have that fuse." as "There is a fuse if I have a short, if you short with the battery then you won't have that fuse."
I only bring it up because your English is otherwise nearly perfect.
rylpace I see your point. This way I will remember. Many thanks! You never stop learning!
So TH-cam is littered with videos on rust-removal by electrolysis and other methods on iron and I've heard enough of the warnings against attempting this on stainless steel to know not to attempt, but no-one has yet talked about the best way to remove rust from stainless steel!!
All the chemicals will either possibly eat through the metal or cause it to rust soon after application. After that I'd have to figure out how to dispose of the chemical legally. Are any of these chemicals even safe on cooking equipment like a rusty grill?
Your response would be much appreciated. Thanks
+stJek I see your point and even though you won’t end up with hexavalent chromate ions as some folks seem to believe on YT, the chromium oxides will need special disposal. Regarding the acetic acid you find in white vinegar, that you can dump in the drain as long as it doesn’t clog. Is done in every restaurant as well. Acetic acid in white vinegar is completely safe on a grill. Thx for raising good points!
@@Ken_Sweden I've been very interested in trying electrolysis rust removal but have held off because of concern about chromium and nickel. I know that stainless has much higher percentages but all sorts of steel contains them in smaller amounts. Any thoughts on that? And how would the byproducts differ from grinding dust, something that's done all the time.
What's the difference in the end result (the reactions at both electrodes, assuming plain carbon steel) between this process (sodium chloride + acetic acid) vs a sodium bicarbonate electrolyte?
In the carbonate case, you will have you high pH. Then the dissolved material fall out from the solution and clog on your electrodes. When the electrode get covered with lots of dirt, electricity goes down, and the process doesn’t function evenly. With acid, everything stays as a solution because acid prevents that the dissolved material fall out as solid material on the electrode
@@BenNorway Ah thank you so much! That's great. I often have to scrape the anodes clean, it's a pain. Does that mean it also reduces the black oxide formation on the cathode?
I am going to switch to the acid process. I might move to graphite anodes too.
PS Thank you for this video I had no idea it could be done this way. I've been using bicarbonate forever.
What would happen if you reversed the polarity? Thanks. Take care. Doug
If you reverse the polarity, then the piece you're trying to de-rust will become the sacrificial anode and some of it will be eaten away. Always + to the sacrificial parts, - to the part you want to clean. I use short pieces of rebar. Don't use stainless for anodes, unless you want to turn your solution into a toxic stew of chromium. Non-stainless sheet metal works very well. No galvanized metal, either.
Hur gör du för att undvika att rosten kommer tillbaka efter du tagit upp den från badet?
Jag tänker att så snart den kommer ut i syre så kommer rosten tillbaka om den inte blir neutraliserad?
Eller tänker jag helt fel?
Du tänker rätt. Mest flash rost får man från saltsyra i jmf med andra syror. Ättiksyra ger relativt lite men för att vara säker så sprayar du lämpligen med WD40, allt torkar snabbt å sen grundar å målar.
So i’m planning to use electrolysis to remove rust inside my motorcycle gas tank, its only 4.5liters so about 1.25 tbl spoon of sodium carbonate should do, but do you recommend to but white vinegar as well? And by how much?
+ripmax333 the electrolysis works both ways. You can use sodium carbonate or white vinegar. I use white vinegar because it is better in dissolving rusted fragments into liquid. The sodium carbonate is not dissolving anything, it just makes a big froth as gas is formed on the metal surface when you run the electricity. Good luck!
I see, yes I recommend sodium chloride + acid: that is table salt with white vinegar. You are right if this is what you meant. Sodium carbonate is baking powder, it’s makes things the opposite to acid, but it works as well. I have not shown that. I know you will be happy with the acid way, don’t bother with the other sodium carbonate stuff.
Ken Sweden so i can use white vinegar alone or a mix of sodium carbonate and vinegar? I used sodium carbonate and it kinda worked but there were still like tiny black dot deposits. Now i’m using white vinegar alone and see what it does.
ripmax333 white vinegar and sodium carbonate will cancel out their effect. Acid + alkaline = neutral
What is the total solution makeup? Thanks
nofences2 coming up , electrolyte is 7 litres of water w only 5 table spoons of table salt. 1 tea cup of acetic acid ( equivalent 5 cups of white vinegar)
Great Vids man! Learning so much. I have a question, if i wish to apply this method to de-rusting a motorcycle fuel tank...would it matter if the Black(negative) wire is submerged in the solution as well and perhaps the fuel tank is resting on the positive plate in a similar tub/ bucket? So basically can all wires be submerged and can the fuel tank rest on the positive metal plate?
BTW i'm an absolute noob regarding this stuff, apologies if it's a silly question.
Edit: lol, did a search of the Tube regarding this method on a fuel tank and there are plenty of vids...just hope they are informative and correct!
Thanks for your encouraging comment.
If the black wire is submerged doesn't really matter, its just that there will be a lot of hydrogen bubbles appearing on the wire. However, the place where it is attached to the tank is preferably polished off a bit to better electrify your tank.
Regarding the metal plate, the answer is no. You can not rest it on the metal plate, you will have a shortcut and the fuse will go in your battery charger. However, if you throw in a sponge or a pieces of plastic on top of the plate, then it will work and you can rest it on that.
Good luck with the tank, you will be amazed how simple and good results you get.
All the best!
Thank you for the fast reply and it makes sense now regarding not touching the positive plate, been searching youtube vids where guys have been de-rusting their fuel tanks using electrolysis.
Seems not necessary to submerge the tank unless you have outside surface rust and using washing soda (sodium Carbonate not baking soda - Bicarbonate) instead of the table salt solution (sodium Chloride) inside the fuel tank
Both appear to work and not matter but the ratio is important otherwise the fluid could ramp up the current drawn and cause a short? That was interesting to hear!
Appears your 1/5th ratio is similarly used as well but they do not add any form of acid, i guess it just helps a bit more. With very good ventilation as always...not sure when I am going to try it but will report back. Cheers!
Hi Ken, as a chemist can you perhaps shed some light on how to tell when such a solution is depleted, or how must rust removal it's likely to last for?
Difficult questions because it will depend on your counter electrode and how the electricity is affecting the possible clogging oxidation on it with time. However, but as far as I have heard from the feedback of viewers, and form my own experience, as you dissolve more iron your solution will stay acidic and work fine. In the end, the solution in this video should not generate too much oxides on your electrode as it is acidic.
@@Ken_Sweden interesting, good to know. Actually, in my experience so far with a ferrous anode, it corrodes, material is removed from it, but at the same time the process does a rather good job of cleaning it, at first I used galvanised and the zinc was stripped off very quickly, but overall the electrode remains clean. I do however get quite the accumulation of blue-green and brown sludge collecting in the solution, which is messy but easy enough to remove from the item being de rusted. Thanks for the informative video btw :)
It seems to me that having the anode be a sheet of copper in the bottom of the bucket, that means that as the ferric oxide sloughs off of the piece, it will coat the anode, decreasing its efficiency. So wouldn't it make more sense to have the anode be vertical, on the side of the bucket?
+bricology well it depends on how you hang your pieces to be cleaned. The uniform field strength is the most important, so 4 of them (one on each side) would be an option. However, the little gas generated on the anode lifted all my froth to the surface anyway so I had no problem. The field strength is also unaffected by some small larger lumps if there. I guess it could be more of a problem if you don’t add any acid that assist in dissolving the rust.
So 5:1 water:white vinegar? Any harm/benefit in using stronger acid? Like 4:1 or even 2:1?
No problem at all. The rust in itself most often not exactly the same, depends on how it was formed
Hi
I did this with my exhaust manifold and it worked amazing , the rust washed straight off with a pressure washer, back to new grey cast iron . Then i put it in a tub with water and 500grams of bicarb soda to stop the rust coming back , left it for an hour or something.
Pulled it out , put it in the sun and as soon as the water dried off the nice grey cast iron changed to brown surface rust right before my eyes .
How can i stop that happening , remembering its an exhaust manifold for a very nice classic car .
Could be that your iron is prone to flash rusting that instantaneously happens as it is wet. The nails I made are still clean and grey on the table in front of me. I would try on a small area and spray on some ammonia before it rusts, or dry it fast with a heat gun although non of these will be permanent. However, now with an extremely thin surface rust it will convert all of it with a rust converter. The rust converters only works for very thin rust (for thicker rust only converts the surface) but then you end up with a blackish surface, and maybe that's not what you wanted. For a shiny surface, possibly the best is to zinc plate it. I have to check this myself, I will run a nail to test the zinc plating. Someone will probably say spray WD40, but that's not a long term working solution.
Thankyou very much for your reply . The exhaust manifold is a great test subject , im sure you will enjoy the results you get . I will try the ammonia next time. I subbed so I can follow along and learn as much as i can. I personally am not using the electrolysis method as im not in a rush . Its just 4L of white vinegar and about 30L of water . Its full of nuts and bolts and some brake rotors at the moment
Zinc plate after you use electrolysis :-) :-)
Hiyya. You're a chemist. Can you supply the half-equations for what's going on at the cathode and the anode?
+Seymour Sunshine U have at the positive cl- being reduced to cl2 gas but the acetate ions should add w ethane and CO2 being produced. The little cl making gas is very little but if u do electrolysis on diluted muriatic acid - it makes holes in your titanium electrode. It’s very corrosive. At the negative you have a myriad of reactions: with iron in the rust switching from 2 to 3 plus, a mixture of oxide states and hydroxides adds on top due to different oxidation states, while also hydrogen reduced direct on the iron to gas, that is under the rust. So, the simple answer to your question: No I cannot. If you could find one chemist that could balance these equations then you, not the chemist, is up for Nobel prize. The vise is dirty on top of it. Of course there is always someone that says they can do it, but if that person would add the equations here 50 folks would tell how many wrongs there would be in there. Basically without a proper analysis on what’s in the bath, it’s impossible. Thx for comment. Good input.
If iron is left in acid the iron will eventually dissolve entirely.will the same happen with electrolysis? Also, I've used products like metal rescue, but the iron turns black. How can that be removed by chemistry? Great video!
+Don Newbold Thanks for commenting. The iron itself is so much more stable than the rust so you don’t need to worry about this and it won’t dissolve in a traditional way as one could envision. So leaving it in this weak acid won’t do anything for weeks. However, if you leave it for 2 weeks in 50 % muriatic acid as i use in my other bolt video, then it turns completely black and the reaction seams to have stopped, no more bubbles show. This is because a compound called ferrihydrate has formed, looking as it is partially protecting the surface. In reality, at this point hydrogen from the acid is all the time migrating into the iron. A very slow process, which with time will make your iron just disintegrate like a cracked eggshell. Folks refer to this as hydrogen embrittlement and one should be careful on this with all acids. Now, in the case of electrolysis you are safer because you push out electrons through your part, which can react with that hydrogen so it leaves your part as bubbles instead. In fact all the metal in the black cable side, immersed cables themselves, are always intact when you wash them. Two more cases are there to consider when doing this stuff, phosphoric acid and rust converters, both making your part black, but this is without electrolysis. Here the phosphorus part of the acid bonds to the iron or the tannate part of the acid in the rust converter. They make kind of a protective layer that is good to paint on. As you let it dry as ‘coatings’ the hydrogen embrittlement problem is not a problem, no more hydrogen is supplied. However leaving it in there for ages will crack the iron also here. This is all that there is into it for us normal hobby folks, I hope it helps.
The black is carbon from the steel.
So the bigger the container and the more vinegar and bigger object the more power you need?
Yes
How do you know when it's done? When to stop? Does it stop bubbling?
I just bring it up, rinse it off and check on regular basis.
You didn't state in this video what material your anode plate was made from. After reading some comments, I was made to understand that your anode was a piece of titanium. I seriously doubt that the average man has scrap pieces of titanium lying around and the cost of purchasing titanium is crazy expensive. Would an anode made of a piece of clean steel not work? Secondly - does the size of the anode in relation to the size of the rusted work piece matter?
You can get titanium pretty cheaply if you know where to look, I got old titanium turbine blades that were out of spec and unuseable, for pretty cheap on eBay. Can't remember the exact price as it was years ago, I'd imagine it'd be a bit pricier now.
For a 5% concentration (typical white vinegar here in the US), how many mL vinegar per L water is ideal?
I think the bottle white vinegar is about 5 % acetic acid, roughly. That would be to take the entire bottle, no dilution at all. However, I would look around a bit, it’s probably possible to get the pure acetic acid somewhere. It’s a weak acid and not very harmful, especially compared to Muriatic acid sold in the hardware store. That way you can use only pure water, the salt and the acid so you know what you have in your bath. The bottle of white vinegar possibly contains some other things as well.
@@Ken_Sweden I appreciate your input. I've been doing some research and trials. May I get your opinion on the following solution:
3 tablespoons washing soda + 3 cups white vinegar (5%) per gallon of water.
I'm chasing my kids around so if my conversions are off I apologize. I round numbers off a bit
12mL washing soda + 190mL white vinegar per L water
What do you think? I've used this to great affect with no adverse effects, but there's always a chance I'm missing something.
@@Ken_Sweden when the sodium carbonate reacts with the vinegar and produces gaseous CO2, does the remaining product do anything to hinder the process, or is there likely enough of each reactant remaining that the electrolysis is not hindered? It's been so long since I've had Chem I hesitate to feel my conclusion is a sound one
Today I have learned "Fairy liquid" is called "Yes" in Sweden.
What’s metal plate is attached to the positive electrod?
+Tyy Daymon just scrap metal. I am making a video on a professional setup and explain what are the important things to know about when you build this stuff. Right now, most the YT videos ate full of rumors with no solid science behind it. In principle what you want is electrodes that doesn’t dissolve. Hang on, it will be here soon!
Ken Sweden thanks
Now I wonder about could you use a chelating type chemical in the electrolis tank? I have seen other videos now using TETRASODIUM EDTA ? anybody ever try that?
Amino functional to avoid hydrogen diffusion into the cleaned part?
Good teaching though example.
Glad you think so!
Thanks for posting this. However please help me with the amounts of vinegar and salt I need to add to a 2.5 gallon gas tank I am trying to clean. I did this but didn't work. I had no action at all. I did check my connections and was getting power to my anodes. Also are you using straight vinegar and no water? I wasn't sure. Thanks
+MyLexG The electrolyte is 7 litres of water w only 5 table spoons of table salt. 1 tea cup of acetic acid ( equivalent 5 cups of white vinegar).
If you don’t see much action in the beginning it could be 2 things:
1. no current to the pure iron, check connections or
2. that your object is evenly rusted so it takes some time to get the process going and penetrate through to the clean iron. The more rust you remove, the faster it goes, and the more obvious the entire process becomes. The last section of the video is where I am almost at the end. Hope this helps.
Is vinegar more effective than washing soda?
Yes!
I love your channel, liking and subscribing, thank you for visiting mine I hope you keep making more!!!!!
citric acid for a day in 45C temp, then coat with the Dinitrol 11253 RC800, then remove the coating with wire brush or sand blower. The result is non rusting metal without any coating for days !
If you do not remove the Dinitrol 11253 RC800 coating then it's like painted primer, but I do not like it, and some parts needs proper base coating like zinc, etc. Some parts need not to be painted.
I would love to learn to do same result but without expensive Dinitrol 11253 RC800. However if I do not use it the part rusts again after some time, rather quick I might add.
+juliusvalentinas I have found the papers on most of what is in the Dinitrol that you are using. One question: is the color of the liquid beige and does it turn into something like purple?
+juliusvalentinas If you see a small sign of purple, then I possibly could can suggest something cheaper that works the same.
@@Ken_Sweden The color of the liquid is like milk, it dries quick and turns into lacquer. The rusted parts turns black, good metal is unchanged. That is the main plus of this converter that you can see parts that reacted and can sand them once more. Until There is no more reaction.
how much of a concern is embrittlement?
Very much if you expose the iron to the acid over long periods. The embrittlement happens because of hydrogen finding it’s way into the material viangrain boundaries
I have my electrolysis tank bubbling up a storm.
So basically adding a small amount of white vinegar to water enhances the speed of the electrolysis?
Yes and keeps everything from the rust dissolved in the solution.
Heat helps if you're only doing vinegar.
Wow
Himalayas salt for electrolysis. You must be rich :-).
Don't use stainless steel for an anode as it could create hexavalent chromium if you don't know what you're doing.
I'm about to experiment with this as a small business strategy to fund my car projects. I have an engine block I want to rebuild and I feel electrolysis engine cleaning could be a good niche service to offer. What would you suggest as an anode for an entire 300+lb engine block? I plan on using a 55 gallon drum and aquarium bubblers
Or could the drum itself be a fine anode?
Absen....
Vinegar works because it is acidic. Electrolysis works with electrolytes which are alkaline which is kind of the opposite of acidic, isn't it? So you are either limiting your electrolysis by making the solution less conductive or you are limiting the acidic ability by neutralizing the acid with the alkaline substance. Don't the 2 contradict each other?
You add so much acid that you always keep the electrolyte acidic. The motivation for always keeping it acidic is that all your dissolved rust will stay as rust ions metal ions and be readily dissolved, then they will never clog any electrodes and your reactions will also go faster. Thx for comment!
@@Ken_Sweden thanks for the reply
What happened with using Super Washing Soda? 👌
Works great
Arm and hammer all you need
I think very little rust is being removed; almost all of the rust is being removed by electrolysis. You have so little acid in there that is just acting as an electrolyte along with the salt.
Try doing this demonstration w/o the battery charger; you'll get old and gray waiting for the rust to be removed.
+X the Unknown you are right in that it doesn’t do much without electrolysis and one has to expect gray hair if only using that acid. However, it makes a difference w electrolysis and even more if you would heat it. It keeps all that precipitate and nasty stuff limited. The solution is pH 2-3 so it’s a bit more acidic than Coca Cola, and even leaving it in Coke would remove rust with time. For high speed acid rust removal, here’s what there is to know
+X the Unknown th-cam.com/video/5Bkdej_z1HI/w-d-xo.html
+X the Unknown Thanks for watching, much appreciated comment!
Just leave it in vinegear for 1 week, and then wash out the rust with pressure washer. Then immidiately add oil to the item to prevent rust again. You will see after this, will no rust left at all!
are you talking fluoride or chloride/chlorine gas?
Chlorine. Thx for highlight.
5:07
Hydrogen gas is flammable. Just FYI for those who forgot.
Do this outside or in a well ventilated area.
I did electrolysis at home while in middle school. The chemistry teacher taught us how to collect hydrogen from it. I collected it in a pen case and detonated it with a piezo igniter. It was similar to a gunshot :)
Aparently oxyclean is another good product to use
This is why you have to keep your battery terminals corrosion free.
Ken it kooks like you have the positive lead in the water with the negative lead. I have watched lots of electrolysis videos on You tube and none of these video's have their positive lead in the water with the negative lead. Several videos mentioned not to put the Positive lead in the water. I have done many electrolysis projects and I never have the positive lead in the water.
titearsedmurican , I would think it much more dangerous
Still think washing soda works better I use sodium carbonate
Every video I've seen using Sodium Carbonate left black scale on the part, does that happen for you? What intrigued me about this method is that I can see nice shiny metal on the end result.
@@rylpace you can see shiny "white" metal because the vinegar is removing more than just the oxide scale...its eating into the sub straight rapidly, whereas the soda carbonate electrolysis bath is only affecting the oxide scale...kinda like a laser scale remover. Save the part...don't dissolve the darn thing.
Haha typiskt Svengelskt uttal, I övrigt bra video.
For god sakes use cheaper table salt. Hymalian salt are expensive.
Way over explained!
I use 100g of washing soda (sodium carbonate) in a half gallon, submerge the item AND the croc clip holding it.
Action right away on switch-on - the rusty connection soon cleans itself, 20 minutes tops, and the reaction is then going like the clappers, just 4.5V or so and a couple of amps from an old charger I got off the local tip for free.
All done in an hour.
Car battery charger same way as you but a 55 gallon plastic drum. Once out of tank put it on fine wire wheel on bench grinder. Bingo
you didn't even tell how much vinegar you put in there. and you are a ''chemist''? LoL
apple cider vinegar works better I find
9 amps is too much ,you only need 2 amps at the most.
@Schwalbe262 It can slow the process down, not sure how but a guy who has been doing it for year's said either way can slow it down 2.1 amps is the sweet spot.
Why bother with the vinegar? Electrolysis does the job on its own.
It doesn't do anything to the part that you're derusting, sure. But it does keep the anode clean and unclogged, and it dissolves the rust that was scaled off the kathode ao that you wouldn't have that much foam and dirt floating at the surface. At least that's how I understood it.
Just to keep it acidic, keeps the rust and chunks dissolved
hydrocloric acid is faster and way better
12V 9Amp...... not the full truth.... when the +pole were at the "rust" - you had NO current flow (or at least very little) 9Amp is WHAT the chager CAN deliver... not what it really delivers... It would have been much more fair if you told how much current did flow at diffent times in the film... BUT still very GOOD film!!!
If you to electrolysis on salt water. You get hydrogen chloride. Which is completely different to chlorinated pools
T u I