True rust removal by a chemist - a titanium electrolysis setup
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ค. 2018
- Electrolysis is a useful method to clean up your old tools only using your old car battery charger. Very simple and safe as long as you don't shortcut your electricity and keep the container open to ventilation. In this video, some basics on the electrolysis setup is explained, and why you are better of using titanium as anode material compared to stainless steel, aluminum or iron bars from a construction site. An environmental friendly electrolyte is shown that can be discarded in any outlet without causing damage to the drain system. The vise goes from completely rusty to 99.9% free from rust.
Beskrivning av hur man tar bort rost med hjälp av elektrolys på enkelt vis ha en batteriladdare. Enkelt och säkert så länge man inte kortsluter systemet. Titan beskrivs som exemplariskt material i anoden för det är motståndskraftigt mot nedbrytning, vilket är anledningen till att titan ofta används i professionella elektrolysanläggningar. Ättika som består av ättiksyra blandas enkelt med vatten för att sänka pH värdet i vattnet, vilket bidrar till att lättare lösa upp metalloxiden (rosten) och hålla metalljonerna i lösning som joner. Metoden är effektiv och miljövänlig, samtidigt som resultatet visar en tving som renats från 99.9 % av ursprungsrosten. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Hi Ken! First, I just wanted to thank you for putting up this video. It is amazingly helpful! I do have a question for you. I have a powder coating shop and recently received 5 steel wheels from a 1949 GMC pickup. As your can imagine, they were covered in rust. I used your formula, only on a much bigger scale. But the proportions all matched what you used in your experiment. Now, what I've noticed is that the electrolyte solution has become more effective the more I use it. When I submerged the first wheel into the tank, the process to nearly 5 hours. The second wheel was significantly less, just about 2.5 hours. Now that I nearing the end of cleaning all of them, it's taking just about 1 hour per wheel. I'm using an old professional style battery charger. Each time the charger is turned on, it's output has been just about 15 amps. Also, I'm using rebar as my anodes. None of them are covered in rust, yet the bath is running fabulously. I'm hoping that you can provide some insight as to why the process is speeding up and why the anodes are almost completely clean. Thanks again for your great videos!
Many thanks for highlighting that it works on larger scale as well. What you tell is sometimes difficult to observe when working on small scale without good comparisons. The explanation to what you see is the following:
With the addition of the acid (in the vinegar), the pH went down and the solution became acidic. An acidic solution of water has the capability of releasing the iron ions from their solid and bonded form in the rust itself. The more acidic, the faster this will happen. Now, at the pH where you are with the addition of the acetic acid in the vinegar, which is about 3-4, the charged iron ions are still not completely dissolved, meaning free moving as Fe3+ or Fe2+. They are moving around in the solution as combinations of hydroxides and to some extent oxides, although they are so small that they are invisible to the bare eye. These oxides and hydroxides would remain on the bottom of your tank and become visible if you allowed all the water to evaporate. However, since they are so small and readily soluble (dispersed) in the water, a bonus is that nothing is clogging your rebar. To some small extent, these iron ions may lower your pH even more, making your electrolyte more effective, but I would (without knowing how much rust you have dissolved) say their main contribution is to allow for better charge transfer, meaning a more conductive electrolyte. So, they essentially enhance the conductivity of the electrolyte you made by adding the table salt. To have a completely transparent and only green brown colored electrolyte, you have to go even lower in pH, and more acidic. When more acidic (pH lower than 1), all the hydroxides/oxides will dissolve and go into solution if no oxygen is present, which requires you to seal the system with inert gas on top. Here is no use of it anymore since the hazel with getting rid of the electrolyte will be extra work, and the faster rate of the electrolysis just makes it difficult to know when to stop. It is also beneficial that the electrolyte you have now is just to flush out in the drain, unless lots of solid stuff in it, since it is only iron hydroxides and vinegar. I hope this was relatively clear. All the best and again many thanks for sharing your results!
@@Ken_Sweden thank you so much for such a clear explanation. What you just explained now makes all the sense in the world. If I remember correctly, with 35 gallons of water, I used just under 2 gallons of vinegar and 2 1/2 cups of salt. So by starting with a good base solution, as the rust dissolves the iron content goes up, thereby making the solution more efficient. Believe me, when I was finished, I didn't want to get rid of that mixture! But because of limited storage space in my shop, it had to go. I will make it again when I need it. It was very inexpensive and very effective. I'm not sure if I can post pictures here. If I cant, I will be posting them to my Instagram page for you and anyone reading this to actually see my results. @viperpowdercoating Again Ken, thank you for posting your videos and for such a clear explanation. I truly appreciate it. Best wishes to you and yours..
Jack
I would love a response also from you Sir Chemist. Could you also tell me if the larger the titanium sheet the faster the removal ?? Does the grade of titanium make a difference too ??? Why does the process go faster every time a fresh and rusty piece is put in the tank as expressed by the truck wheels ??? Thanks you Sir.
@@victoryfirst2878 Hi! Because I just saw you're question, and its basically the same question I asked about the effectiveness of the solution. The good Sir Chemist replied to me with this referring to the Iron content of the used solution...
"To some small extent, these iron ions may lower your pH even more, making your electrolyte more effective, but I would (without knowing how much rust you have dissolved) say their main contribution is to allow for better charge transfer, meaning a more conductive electrolyte. So, they essentially enhance the conductivity of the electrolyte you made by adding the table salt."
Basically, I'm using rebar as my anodes, they dissolve as the process goes on and that adds Iron Ions into the mixture making it more conductive. Thus making the process go faster. And it did! I can't post pictures here but I did upload them to my instagram @viperpowdercoating if you'd like to take a look at the last wheel I did. It was amazing! I probably could have take it out after 60 minutes. But left it for 90. I've also read that the larger the anode used, the more surface area is covered and theoretically a faster process. I'm going to try that one out for myself. But I'm quite sure that the good Sir Chemist can be much more useful. I just thought I would share my findings with you. Best to you, Victory First!
Jack Ha
What a cool video. And that clamp is a beautyful oldschool tool, I've never seen one like that. You're doing a good thing by restoring and saving it.
Excellent video and really interesting explanations of the process, thank you for creating this.
Great video! I plan on doing rust removal in the near future and I like your method more than any others I have seen. That's a fantastic tool and I hope you finish restoring it.
Bob Ferranti Thanks for comment! It works good and better do these things safe and just wait the good results out. No need for more current or chemicals, it will be the same end result anyway. I have tried. Good luck!
Thanks for these videos. Very interesting and informative.
Nice and clean Video. The electrolysis also works with washing soda as well. Best regards from Germany 😎
Man, that's a great new vice you've got there! I hope you will still use it after plating, it would be a pitty to let such a great piece of engineering go to waste.
A tick from me I’ll be watching more of your videos thanks for showing
Excellent video👍👏👏👏👏👏👏
You can improve performance by adding a magnetic coupled re-circulation pump to continuously agitate the solution and remove the hydrogen layer and scale from the surface of the part. I also recommend adding a coarse ( 20 micron) water filter to the circulation pump to collect debris.
Excellent input. Thanks.
I would like more details on how to make the best filtration system for a tank? Thank you
I had also thought of adding a magnetic stirrer. I have magnets salvaged that were used for just that purpose and will give it a try.
Your method would be yet a further improvement. Noted for further development!
Great video, thanks for sharing!
Out of interest I measured the resistance of my home made bath before I put bicarbonate of soda in and got about 200 ohms, I was interested to see how much current would flow and also to make sure I wasn't overloading the power supply, which was rated at 3.5A @ 20v.
I used two old sheets of steel I use for car repairs as plates each end of tub with car bit hanging in the middle.
I then put a few spoons of Bicarbonate in and got a funny negative ohmic reading, so I then realised I'm actually getting a small voltage from the solution, like a battery if I'm thinking correctly. It was about 0.2v
I couldn't exactly remember from my college days how to measure resistances of circuit when battery was effectively inline, so tried connecting it up and away it went. Left for about 9 hours and the amount of brown clumps and dust that ended up in water was astonishing, the car part was really clean too. This electrolysis is great, wish I'd done it years ago, save me all that rubbing down and rust treatments, only issue though, can't get full car in it :).
I never used vinegar or salt as heard it was creating lots of gas but I am outside anyway, I wonder if that is better than bicarbonate.
I had made some alterations to the circuit arrangements used in the video, by using a metal tin, rather than a plastic tank. The entire tin serves as the anode, thus surrounding the work piece and this increases the overall current density, leading to much greater efficiency.
I tried this system on an antique 'Primus' stove spanner, that was extremely rusty and pitted - the maker's name and 'Sweden' were illegible. But after just 30 minutes, and then a couple on the wire wheel, the part looked like new. Also, the flame wind shield, that I had given up on because a wire brush would have destroyed this delicate part, was also restored.
To limit current from the 12V supply I inserted a 21W, 12V car light bulb in series. Any shorts or overloads between the job and the anode are thus rendered harmless and will not damage the charger which has a maximum rating of 4 Amps in my case.
Would work better / faster if you hadn't connected to the rust ie clean the rust off just where the electrical connections are... rust is actually an insulator.
how do you seal the metal AFTER rust removal ?
You can also equalize the field strength by adding additional anodes. Also, if you wanted to use a digital type charger you could hook it up to a battery in parallel. The old transformer type battery chargers are kind of hard to find.
It's good to know that I was alright in using this solution, I just assembled a tub yesterday and because I didn't have an old battery charger I just hooked up a deep cycle battery and the charger to the battery. The charger provided power and the splitting wedge is now much less rusty.
I'm very grateful to have an expert's advice on this rather than "YT Truth" you described so well, the echo chamber of recirculated sloppy research that I've been seeing up until now!
+Jozsef Izsak thanks for encouraging words. There’s much more related to electrochemistry to come. I just have to cut it down to the very essentials in the right order. Have a good day!
Recently, I saw perhaps one reference to hydrogen embrittlement, maybe two, arising from this process and the recommendation was to use only 1 volt in order to avoid it. A chemist or metallurgist told me many years ago that simply heating the item to some temperature in a home oven for 20 minutes would drive out the hydrogen and the deleterious effect on strength would be eliminated. If this is correct then accurate information about it would be helpful for many people removing rust from parts that will be stressed. Perhaps you could provide that for us.
Jozsef Izsak the hydrogen embrittlement is an explaination to premature fracture occurring on eg exposure to acidic conditions. However, researching the scientific literature will tell you that the definitions on when it occurs and at what concentrations of hydrogen that is required is vaguely defined. I have not found one single article describing concentration of acid and time of exposure, as related to a specific iron grade that tells me how much iron embrittlement you will have for predetermined conditions. The phenomenon is however related to the diffusion of hydrogen in the grain boundaries of the iron/steel, so in any case this doesn’t happen in seconds/minutes. I’ve tested and exposure of strongly acidic solutions will allow the hydrogen embrittlement to occur But then i had to expose the iron over 2 weeks in concentrated hydrochloric acid. The heat pretreatment of the iron/steel here also play an important role since it affects the grain nature in the steel, and you can naturally then assume that the specific composition of the steel will also have an effect. Overall, however, I did find an old science book from the 80s that stated, as your friend suggested, that it is reversible and that heat drives out any hydrogen diffused into the iron. It was a general statement and in case of high strength fasteners, I would not play around, and just get new ones. In all other cases, I wouldn’t worry about hydrogen embrittlement.
Thanks for the detailed reply, Ken. I originally heard of this as a 20% reduction in strength in the context of electroplating many years ago. I assume it's a definite non-issue for a week or ten days in vinegar.
Hi Ken Do toy think that I can use your mixture of 1000ml water , 40ml white vinegar and 1 Tea spoon salt as a electrolyte when using a Walter SurFox , TIG weld cleaning machine on Stainless Steel welded parts ?
How long will the titanium last and how come its not anodizing and going passive?
Thank you for this content- looking forward to building a tank to recover tools and machine parts for rebuilds- wanted to ask what grade of titanium plate you use for your tank. Thanks again mate- cheers!
This one was the most inexpensive I could find, for homework project - said RX on it, came as a rolled up sheet.
Can this be done indoors?
What was the voltage and at how many amperes?
Two guestions:
Did you splice the negative lead and connect it to two positions?
What amperage was the charger delivering?
No I didn’t splice it and the charger delivered 1 Amp. Thx f comment!
Hi Ken. These tools are called F clamps.
Thanks for the great video! I was under the impression that the wires from the charger were not to supposed to contact the water. You seem to suggest doing without the titanium vertical strip on the left, and just have one horizontal only titanium sheet on the bottom. I'm game to try that, as long as it's ok for the positive wire from the charger to be underwater. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
+Peace Love For electroplating it is necessary to only have the correct metal down in the electrolyte. If not, your plating will be contaminated. In the case of rust removal it doesn’t matter. Now, I used titanium because it can withstand acidic solutions so I can use it over and over again, but it doesn’t matter if a short segment of copper from a wire is there. It is also relatively resistant towards dissolution. It will be coated with a bit of copper oxide with time. I would just put some epoxy on that connection once I see its properly working. Thx for the input!
@@Ken_Sweden can I ask if using standard washing soda and rebar as your scrap. If the copper wire was in the water does it create any harmful toxic byproduct etc aka like stainless steel producing the carcinogenic byproduct if anyone used it as the scrap
I’ve watched your videos and I’m confident now to try and clean my petrol tank (mk2 cortina) any tips on please
George
I'm making a video on this at this moment. For the petrol mc tank job, I am using citric acid diluted 9 times and heated to 80. This way you avoid flash rust. The electrolysis on petrol tank is of course better and smarter but if you run it on a tank only rusted inside, the painting on the outside may get damaged. Good luck!
Hi, nice and informative video!
Is citric acid a good replacement for the vinegar? What mixture concentration would you suggest in such case? (vinegar smells so bad, my personal preference).
Yes I would think so, it is about as acidic as acetic acid 👍
I"m impressed. I've finally met a 'chemist', on YT, who doesn't understand electrolysis..? Fortunately Ken, there's a few hundred vids out there that could help. Sorry, the irony here is just incredible. Vinegar does NOT promote electrolysis and sodium bicarbonate shouldn't be used; rather sodium carbonate A.K.A. = Washing soda.
Luckily we have you to bring the ultimate truth and we are all very grateful for your divine knowledge in this matter. Please post your video!
Mystery for the chemist! I totally recreated and upgraded my electrolysis tank based on this video (kind of) but now have a strange observation. New setup: 5’ x 3’ x 2’ plastic tub with three 12”x24” CP3 4902K titanium .02” electrodes and sodium carbonate! The power supply is a Longwei 30v/10A DC power supply. When I first put the power supply on it will run at 10.2A and 30V, but over a few minutes reduce itself down to about 1A and 4V. Bubbling pretty much stops. In the spirit of experimentation, I moved the power supply to the old electrolysis tank in a trash can, citric acid and a single piece of rusty rebar. I set the power supply at 30V and 10A and the bubbling went insane! The amps stayed constant. Second experiment-I moved a 12”x18” titanium sheet over to the citric acid tank and the amps dropped to almost nothing. So it’s the titanium. Why would a single 18” piece of rusty rebar and citric acid keep 10A but my super duper titanium-based tank do so poorly?
Where are you measuring voltag at the power supply posts? If BOTH your current and voltage is dropping you have a power supply issue or a separate high amperage current path developing not thru the current shunt dragging the voltage down. Given the power supply name and the fact that you are trying to draw its full capacity or a little higher it could just be a poorly designed / damaged protection circuit in the power supply. If you reduce the voltage or the titanium surface area to get under 10 amps it might behave.
@@anullhandle Thank you for the reply. I am just relying on the LED display, no measurements. When I use rebar as an anode, I get 32V and 10.1A. When I move to titanium I get 31V and 1.4A. I then tried a random steel pet bowl, and I got 30V and 7.5A. The metal seems to be the variable. What's interesting is that as the rebar wasted away I started getting iron shavings that looked like little trees deposited on the metal I was trying to derust. Magnetite? Not sure what citric acid plus electrolysis plus rebar turns into...
Hey, that's not a vise. That's a bar clamp. it's a different kind than most, but still a bar clamp.
Yep, that thar is a bar clamp.
I just started working with electrolysis for rust removal and I've watched a lot of videos and read a lot of articles but I like this one the best. Based on this video I bought some titanium wire for suspending my cathode objects in the electrolyte solution, but I'm stuck on the titanium plating. When I used a sheet of steel with a bit of steel bar welded to it for the connection point, my solution filled with rust particles after just one use. So I'd love to start using a better anode. But titanium is available in a lot of thicknesses and I haven't found any reference to indicate how thick it needs to be. How thick is your anode foil? From where did you source it?
0.7 to 1 mm, thin enouh that it was sold as rolled up but I cannot remember from where, sorry
@@Ken_Sweden That's enough information for me to go looking, thank you! My sacrificial anode is a sheet of scrap I found and it is clouding the tank with a ton of rust so I'm definitely keen on getting a better anode.
Ken! Thank you, could you replace the vinegar with meriatic acid and salt with sodium bicarbonate? So meriatic acid and sodium bicarbonate electrolysis?
This would essentially be running a NaCl electrolyte depending on your ratio. Might end up with either acid or bicarbonate in excess. But main concern I would have is evolution of chlorine gas.
My attempts at electrolysis always create a heavy, black coating which can only be removed by as much wire brushing as would have derusted the part in the first place! I'm using a car battery, iron wires and sodium carbonate in solution. I'd be grateful for any advice about where I'm going wrong.
The general answer I can give is to go acidic, you have to go down in the pH more to dissolve everything. Typically any black precipitate at more acidic conditions would be something called ferrihydrate, which is black but just flush off under the tap. A bit dull surface is all you should have under it, which goes off with a steel brush so it starts to shine. Sodium carbonate with your specific iron grade is something I cannot figure straight off the bat. Try to pour in some vinegar as first step is what I would do.
Thanks, I appreciate your expertise.
Great video, thank you.
Is there anything wrong with using white vinegar, in place of water? Simply fill the tank with it, add your salt, then apply the current? I should clarify, using plain steel as your sacrificial piece, as well as steel wire
You’re right. There is nothing complicated about this. Use an acidic medium and run the electricity. It is easy. You can even start the process without the salt added and then add it while the process has been going for a while. If you add the table salt gradually and you will see when there is not need for more, that is when a more conducting electrolyte won’t improve the process more and other things are limiting how fast it goes.
@@Ken_Sweden Thank you for your input. I appreciate your help.
@@Ken_Sweden Hi Ken, can I get your opinion? I ran a solution of white vinegar, about 1.5gal, and a lot of table salt, no water added. After letting it run for 2 full days, it appeared that my sacrifice piece had been reduced in volume, (width and thickness) substantially. There was no rust present on it. My workpiece was covered in a crusty black substance. I specifically recall seeing bubbles pouring off the workpiece, not my anode. I am running this test again to verify I didnt simply just reverse my leads, but I really don't think I did.
The mixture continued to produce bubbles even after removing power and both pieces. I believe it was chlorine gas but didn't feel inclined to get a good smell obviously.
Any thoughts on what was going on here and why I got the results I mentioned?
I really liked the way this is explained here. I'm planning to use electrolysis to remove rust from items with threads so I would like to be able to somehow control how much material is lost in the process if possible. Is it actually the case that rust is converted back to iron using electrolysis - as it is quite often claimed? I'm planning to use a lye solution with a low DC current. Is lye suitable and even preferable for this?
Thanks for your positive feedback. Rust is never converted back to iron, it is impossible. For that you need 2000 degrees and a melt furnace. The only thing you can get at it’s maximum is magnetic magnetite, which would require you to first dissolve the rust with acid and then pour everything in to an extreme excess lye. The iron ions in the green brown solution would then precipitate into magnetite if conditions are ok. You can use all alkaline lye but you will have better result with acidic condition because the acidic conditions clean deeper into your iron.
@@Ken_Sweden Thank you for clearing this misconception for me. Now I have to go and go and undo my contribution to the spreading of this item of fiction. I have seen lots of experiments on youtube where a heavily corroded mechanism whose constituent parts are solidly stuck together in a somewhat deformed tangle emerge back as a functional item after being subjected to the electrolytic treatment. Perhaps he success of the treatment in that respect somehow got mixed up with recovering the iron. Perhaps the magnetic magnetite has some of the mechanical strength of the original iron which might be excused for assuming that original material recovery has taken place but I have never seen any item emerge partially coated with magnetite to a significant degree. Usually the item emerges covered in blackish slurry which is then scrubbed off.
Is it true if you use 24v @ 5 amps works better than 12v @ 10 amps, also since Sodium chloride is basically neutral & white Vinegar is acidic with a Ph of 3 or so increasing the amount of Vinegar would speed up the rust removal or would it etch the metal to much?
The remaining rust was because the area was "shaded" from the anode.
What is the environmental sensitivity of the remaining solution? Is it as simply add slightly salty acidic water that can go down the drain?
Yes. No problem.
Hi Ken, I tried reproducing this setup for a very rusty exhaust pipe using a titanium mesh electrode (I thought the greater surface area from a mesh would speed up the process), but my anode is being consumed! Is this an expected part of the process? I have been running the electrolysis at around 30V and 1A for a few days and it almost looks like the pipe is acquiring a titanium plating.
You may have switched the anode and cathode. That's how you plate. Also i heard that lower voltage is good
@@pancakedragon1840 thanks for the response! I checked the polarity so it could be the voltage. Perhaps the mesh electrodes get consumed faster than the plate electrodes. At the end of the process there was a lot of white powder precipitate which I assume is titanium dioxide.
So, using vinegar will speed up the electrolysis process if I understand correctly. Will it go even faster the more vinegar you put into the mix? Will using muriatic acid speed it up even further?
There is room for more vinegar if you would like. The entire system is comparable with a stereo. If you add on the treble you loose on the base, and a good balance is what you want. This means that you could also add on the current for the electrolysis, and you would get the same effect as increasing the acid concentration. However, everything comes with a drawback - which in the case of increased current is reduced electrical safety. So here I would pick increased concentration of vinegar. Changing to muriatic acid would make everything go much faster. Muriatic acid has 2 major drawbacks in electrolysis ; 1. It will start smelling chlorine gas from your positive electrode. If you sense chlorine gas you should always watch out. It’s a lethal gas at its worst even if it will be very difficult to expose yourself to such concentrations with an open system. This is because chlorine gas is generated very slowly as bubbles and mixed with air continuously. 2. The formation of chlorine gas on the positive electrode is destroying your electrode even if it is made of titanium. It is very corrosive. My conclusion to this is to stay away from it and use the soft conditions in the video. Better do it completely safe, and just wait a bit longer. It also gives you better control over the progression in your work. Thanks for thoughtful comment.
@@Ken_Sweden Well, I think I should be thanking you for being very informative on the subject!
Thanks for watching. I try to identify topics that are on TH-cam where there are a lot of 'magics' and inaccurate strange statements. There is more to come on electroplating!
Any issue if I used citric acid in water and a couple of titanium spoons as an anode? That's what I just put together in a 45 gallon trash can and a 6A battery charger to take the rust off of some large items. I have it running now and see bubbles, but I wonder gas the bubbles are. Basically, am I going to blow something up, breathe in something caustic, or somehow make myself ill out of the soup it makes when I put my hands in the solution?
I previously used water, sodium carbonate, and a couple of graphite rods but after a couple of weeks the rods disintegrated.
Good input. Nothing dangerous there apart from your high current values. Be safe and don’t electrocute yourself.
@@Ken_Sweden Bubbling stopped so I tried a couple of steel rods. They worked for a bit then stopped as well. I suspect the citric acid isn't a great electrolyte? I poured in some sodium carbonate and got a lot of fizzing, so I think that is carbon dioxide being released and the forming of sodium citrate. I'm not sure that this will get the electrolysis working again.
We've got bubbles again. It looks like citric acid needs more electrolytes added. I suspect that adding the sodium carbonate will dilute the citric acid, though, so perhaps this is a choice between citric acid taking off rust, electrolysis, or find another electrolyte for citric acid that doesn't convert it to something else.
Hmm. That didn't last long. I got about an hour of electrolysis and it died out again. I put in about 4 cups of sodium carbonate into about 35 gallons of citric acid. Looks like the anode is the issue. The titanium spoons are coated with something so I put in my old depleted graphite (3" nubs now) and electrolysis started again. Maybe I didn't need the sodium carbonate anyway. I'll order some .020" titanium foil.
Why is the titanium a better sacrificial electrode ?
The best combination chemical resistance to price in electro chemistry. Used in commercial plants, and avoids to greatest extent having the electrode disintegrate due to strong local chemical condition on the electrode.
Thanks very much for this video! I've been using the typical washing soda method with steel anodes for a while now and am excited about trying this out on my next de-rusting effort. Do you think that using this acidic solution will damage the finish (e.g. bluing) off gun barrels, which is something I'm trying to avoid? Using washing soda does not in my experience. Thank you! I'll be sure to link this video in my next youtube video where I'll be doing electrolysis using your method on an excavated WW1 relic.
An electrolysis reaction of of this kind should not be more harmful to the remains of the metal in the barrel than any other reaction, and is definitely softer than any grinding mechanical sanding method. However, I’ve never put a perfectly good piece of metal in there to evaluate what happens with time if no rust was present. Regardless, I think you can safely say that as long as you have rust going off, which goes off much before the true metal under neath is affected, these conditions are very soft but also effective. The more you run the reaction and the more iron ions that go in solution, the more conducive electrolyte you get so it goes faster for piece no 5 as compared to piece no 1. Good luck!
It's interesting to see an actual chemist do this. Every other video says to use sodium carbonate, I've even seen someone say using table salt will release chlorine gas. I'm guessing that is nonsense if you have used it here?
+Old Uncle Silas yes You are right, it’s practically impossible to gas oneself w table top salt. One person makes a video another copies and then it became a YT truth. Thnx!
@@Ken_Sweden In principle chlorine can be released but only if the sodium chloride solution is highly concentrated. Dilute sodium chloride solution (like the one used here) releases oxygen preferentially. I also appreciate your use of NaCl instead of making another copy cat video.
Can you tell me more about the titanium you are using? What are the grade and thickness? Can you recommend a good source?
+Steve Broyles , will check when I get back to the lab on Monday. it’s about 1 mm thick. It was cheaper than I thought It would be. Thanks for highlighting this! I should have included it in the video.
Ken Sweden Today I'm hoping to try your solution, but with steel anode and copper wires. I am restoring a saw vice. I let you know how it goes. Thanks for the inspiration.
Titanium anode/wire and stainless rods to follow.
Sorry for late reply. I hope everything works out smooth. The stainless rods are just bars from a lab hood, and you can basically use any bars conducting, but if you wish to lift and check the progress with time, then secure them together so you don't risk a shortcut. The are 10 mm in thickness. The titanium I use is from www.liteoutdoors.com/product/titanium-foil/. It works excellent and I have no business with them, apart from that I ordered and paid for a roll. Good luck!
Hi Ken.
Is it okay to paint or nickel-plate the item on the black or do i have to brush that off before painting ?
+martin nielsen if you mean that you have some black paint then that has to go away, the other black I can imagine is that you have used phosphorus acid and some of your rust is now iron phosphate. This is a good ground for repainting, but in plating it is poorly conducting and won’t give a good result. In principle, if you are picky with your results, then one should not even get the fat from our fingers on the part that should be plated, so maximum clean is the way to go. Rinse in ethanol or acetone before is a good strategy. I hope this helps
Is graphite resistant to mild acid solutions. I've never seen people use acid and electrolysis together before.
+phantomcreamer yes it is. However, at higher concentrations of acid you will start peeling of thin sheets of graphene oxide on your negative electrode. It’s called the Hummers process and it is the commercial way to make graphene, that is by conversion of the graphene oxide. Thx f comment!
@@Ken_SwedenGreat info, but I'm still confused. Doesn't the washing soda and vinegar just react to form sodium acetate, h20, and CO2, thereby neutralizing the acid? Also, since the graphite is the positive electrode for rust treatment, I suppose I need not worry about the Hummer process?
Dont know what’s in washing soda and that’s why I don’t use it, depends on which powder you pick I guess. Sodium chloride is completely soluble and so is the acetic acid, which are at so low concentration that you would never precipitate a very soluble sodium acetate salt. The graphite would work well, no problem since it’s as you say used as anode. As the iron start dissolving from the rust, then the pH will go down a bit but hard to read on a pH indicator stick. You will note however that the electrolytic process of dissolving iron will speed up with time. Check the results by viperpowdercoating on Instagram, whom made this bath composition to large-scale. Sorry I missed your point first first time.
@Ken Sweden would you say your solution is better than using washing soda ?
I’ve tried both. This way is definitely better than washing soda. No clogged electrodes, known chemistry makes it safer (what’s in washing soda is to some extent unknown) and faster. Thx f comment
Jag tror det blev en översättningsmiss här : Washing soda = målarsoda = Natriumkarbonat. Bra video annars!
@@StrPtrn Washing Soda=Sodium Carbonate
Baking Soda=Sodium Bicarbonate
Hi Ken thanks for the vid,
I have a question about the water after you have finished. I noticed you said it is an environmentally friendly and can be discarded down the drain. Just want to clarify if we follow your instructions it is safe to throw out.
Also you use table salt, I noticed others recommend sodium carbonate, can you tell me the difference between the two please
Thanks
+Rei do Japão thanks for watching. What will go out in the drain is iron as a dissolved and iron oxide with some table salt ions and the diluted food acid so that’s fine as long as no big iron chunks. Old buildings in Europe still have iron sewage pipes. Now with sodium carbonate, you are likely to have more chunks since it is not dissolving any iron oxide to iron ions so be carful if you need into the drain. It’s pH more than ca 10 depending on concentration. It’s therefore also slower in dissolving the rust. I hope this helps.
Thanks Ken, very helpful!
One more question, I noticed you use distilled water. Is this a must? Or can I use tap water? (I’m in Sydney Australia)
Thanks
@@reitak18 tap water will do just fine. All the best with your experiment and keep in mind the most important - do not short cut your system in the water (keep black and red separated). Notice the fuse in the battery charger and be careful. I have rubber soles on my shoes and work on rubber floor. Never start rearranging stuff without pulling the electricity cord, especially if you have one electrode on the bottom of your container as in the video.
Hej! Räcker det med en 12v 8A batteriladdare för elektrolysen?
+k9tjabo japp!
Tack! Villen lösning skulle du rekomendera?
Så surt som möjligt. Då går det fortare.
For clarity can you please restate the solution mixture.
+Indy Vin It was 27 liters of regular water, about 150 grams of salt NaCL, and 1 liter of white vinegar, which contained about 10% acetic acid. 👍 thanks !
Ken Sweden is this acetate and better quality and faster solution than the washing powder solution?
Indy Vin yes - and You know what you are doing. Washing powder, God knows whats in it. If You eat 100 grams of washing powder, I’m sure you end up in the hospital.
Går det att använda ättiksprit istället för vit vinäger?
+Stefan Johansson , javisst!
Cleaning vinegar has just a bit more acidity to it. However it’s all user preference
Use some of that WD40 on that door hinge!
Stainless Steel contains chromium ... Which is toxic. Better not use any stainless steels in the electrolysis bath 🤷🏻♀️😅
I’m.looking into carbon and titanium but it gets expensive
Wd40 will make it rust.
WaxOyl
Hydrogen Embrittlement could make the parts brittle and liable to fail under stress or load. Do not use this method fir safety critical parts, brake callipers,steering racks etc. The hydrogen can only be removed by high temperature baking above 200 degrees depending on the immersion times and solution strength.
Google Hydrogen absorption and Embrittlement.
I have just retired from 48 years in the metal finishing ( paint, powder coat, EP paint and electroplating) of high spec automotive and aerospace parts.
I hate these home cleaning videos.
The vice in this video could fail under load!!!