no way that hager afdd tripped off thats got to be some camera trickery. me and my associates spent days trying to get that to trip off with no sucess. would i ever buy one no. as science goes for anything to be valid successful experiement it has to be repeatable and peer reviewed i have tried with no sucess on a real faulty appliance where other afdds trip off. prehaps hager have followed the standards a little bit too closely and made something that is tuned to unrealistic lab conditions and not the real world. as you say what gives me confidence is that other manufactuers have bought in a devices with similarlaties. i suspect there testing is closer to the real world situations they are used in. hence why you and i could get them to trip off relativly easy. so moral of the story hager new flashy afdd are they as great as they make out. probally not. are they worth buying probally not. do i think they will be around for the long haul. no i think market forces will put to an end this affd and hager will pull the plug on this design and concept.
No camera trickery Ryan. In my Hager vs. Hager video, the device log is on event 66 or something, so the fact it's now showing event 88 illustrates the success I had getting that unit to operate off-camera while I was messing about with different electrode materials and sizes. My model might have eventually worked if I pratted about with it enough, but Libby's going straight off the bat after pressing record was damn lucky. Why that attempt worked when 99 others before and after it didn't I don't know. If you want to retry, my best success with the Hager was on the bench using a 20mm carbon graphite rod and a plumbers 15mm copper pipe with nothing on the end! Even then, it would only operate a couple of times before becoming unresponsive. I had to shrink the electrodes down to 6mm for the carbon graphite and a pointed copper rod end to make it more 62606-ish, after which it didn't want to know with the exception of that one event I caught on camera.
That fact that Hager's offering only seems to work under very specific test parameters and not when an arc is melting the chamber is still deeply concerning.
That is primarily the fault of the standard though. It makes little sense to allow choice of test procedure, which give different results. The minimising of nuisance tripping seems to have been given priority over sensitivity, understandable from some perspectives, but rendering the AFDD ineffective.
It seems to me, as a non sparky, that if the 30A junction box laying loose under a cupboard fitted by a kitchen fitter started sparking like that when i switched the air fryer on then id want any afdd to trip. That it takes you so much effort to trip some of them seems worrying to me.
Love your honesty on the DSES channel. You're getting better and better, a bit like a fine wine, gets better with age. Thinking that the party poopers should grow a pair because if their product was any good, they would stand by it and allow you to conduct your tests, which is more real world out in the field than the lab conditions the manufacturers have.
Scolmore's rejection said "as a business we cannot knowingly endorse for our products to be tested/evaluated in a way that is currently outside of the BS standard." As the Garo worked just fine, and Elucian appears to be a re-skin of that, I'm sure it would have worked just fine.
What an absolutely fantastic detailed video. Thank you. This had been invaluable, as it showed that only the Wylex brand retained the historic fault and didn't disappear after a while. For this, this is the brand I've gone for. Wylex for the win! I'm so disappointed that there is no standardisation of the colours for fault conditions.. You've excelled yourself on this one, in my opinion. However, I think you needed a break and do some LED lamp failures, crap wiring fixes, consumer unit bodge fixes 😂
Looks like you put alot of effort into that rig Davo, i think you should be proud of the efforts you go to.. farting around or not its still more than others have done so keep it up Sir.
I'm not a sparky but understand what your doing. At the end of the day you have created an arc fault, I would use even a tool station special over an hagar
The simple fact of there being so much variation in what is and isn't a fault in the standard test models says, to me at least, that the whole AFDD thing has a long long way to go before it becomes something you can put in and walk away from knowing that the installation has useful protection.
Hi David. I've had a nuisance trip with a 16 amp Fuse Box AFDD installed on a new 3kw radial circuit, not installed by us. Two identical circuits installed, swapped the circuits over and the issue travelled so there's some issue with the install. All wiring tested and checked out fine so in my opinion it's pointing to the thermostat arching when switching on and off under the 3Kw load. Current status is the thermostats have been swapped over and awaiting a call to see if it trips. A bit of an odd one.
I'd like to see an AFD fault in the wild - I've not had one to look at yet. It's the kind of thing that could be really interesting to hunt down.... or a right pain in the arse.
I wonder if there is a difference in trip behavior depending on whether the circuit is energised or not at the start of the test? ie: test starts with spark gap closed verses open. Not sure if you started each test in the same state. Either way, you're a legend mate. Thanks for dealing with all this crap.
Great content as always, David. I had an interesting incident. I fitted a Verso AFDD on a rewired oven circuit, the oven kept tripping, I thought it may have been a dodgy AFDD and so I replaced it with another Verso AFDD and it continued tripping. In the meantime, the customer decided to replace their 1980's oven and so I returned and replaced the RCBO for a Verso AFDD, the oven circuit no longer trips. I tried locating the fault in the 1980's oven but sadly was unable to. This is a worry for rewiring so we will have to add it to our T&C's.
Only just started the journey on hopefully becoming an electrician and couldn't think of anything better to do with my 26 year old self on a Saturday night than that watch an hour plus video comparing AFDD's, our new house was just renovated and rewired, we went with all Wylex AFDD's. Thanks for the great video Mr Savery.
I've had my Wylex in since 2020 without much issue so far. Two AFD trips in that time, both one-offs on different circuits seemingly with no rhyme or reason.
@@dsesuk We’ve had a few residual current trips but we managed to narrow it down to how my grandad wired his old garage via some 2.5mm in a plug then clipped along the side of the house and painted with weather resistant paint, been out there for 30 years, tripped every time it rained so we just removed all the cable. 🤣
David you are a legend, thanks for a great insight to all the various AFDD and most of all your time and a very lovely mention. I look forward to catching up to the near future.
Next time we're passing, I'll bring my bass guitar, how about that..? I can belt out a passable version of the F1 theme (Fleetwood Mac's The Chain), although I must admit it'll be a while before John McVie needs to worry 🎸 😋
01:09:08 nuisance trips, the Yanks have the exact same sorts of problems you are demonstrating here with their AFCIs. Not surprising really since the names behind the brands on both sides of the pond are often the same, and no doubt there will be generic chips to be found in several brands of AFCIs too.
I think its all very well having a set BS standard for testing these but it seems very precise compared to to the real world, whats to say that kettle or fridge or even ring circuit can produce the exact arc profile as in testing.
I might install the hagers at home and keep my fingers crossed I get the right kind of fault… or Hager, novel idea maybe build something that works without updates 🍻
ey up. 19:10 mechanical flag? There's standard for shower isolators that requires a mechanical indicator, as well as the illuminated one. Going th guess there's a similar requirement in the standards for 60898 or any of the other ones? 59:30 i'd be all for supporting wholesalers if they could match the in and out time of places like Screwfix. Most of them need to have a padded wall for sparks to bang their head off after they've been waiting for 20 fkn minutes for someone to get off a phone and come to a counter, just to charge over the odds for something and then print off a receipt on a dot matrix from the eighties! Honestly, I can't wait for them to go out of business and they'll no one to blame but themselves. . . imho carry on
That is a bugbar about the wholesalers: I hate waiting at the counter for ages while the lads are all clearly having a laugh out back, and I hate anywhere that prioritises phone calls over me standing in person at the counter. I had a dig at one of the CEF chaps recently for doing that to me. As for the rest, I find the materials at the wholesaler tend to be better branded and better quality. Last time I bought trunking from Screwfix, it shattered as I popped the lid on, and I've another video where I bemoan their conduit for not bending properly. My wholesalers tend to reward my regular custom, so while CEF might look expensive on the face of it, by the time my account manager has passed the invoice it's usually well below the public price. Add to that I get a 2.5% discount for paying my account off every month. I'd hate to be left with only the likes of Screwfix and Toolstation with the tat they punt.
So the takeaway for folks with Hager AFDDs installed at home (like me) is once a month go around and sand all the connections of the circuit and you can sleep easy. Would be interesting to know if your results now correlate with the tests that brands did to comply with 62606 - we know Hager used the cable method… maybe chint too? Great video, and thanks for the name check Funds incoming for you to help cover the cost of this impressive public service you do. ⭐️
That was weird....used West Base for the first time this week.....ordered some external lights, very good and fast delivery, will Def use again .......Oh God just seen end of vid with the Hager boys, priceless
jeez.. thanks for putting all this shyte together David. Got back late and thought, 'fook me, that looks interesting'... Quality viewing as usual (even during & after Trivento Malbec). Genuinely impressed- thanks.
I didn't know Protek and Danson were still going! I considered mentioning ABB, but they're just not on the domestic radar which is also the case with the others. Anything that's two or three module these days isn't going to be cheap and isn't going in domestically so I steered clear. In-house brands are often reskins like how Denman's stuff is rebadged Lewden, so not much merit in delving too deeply into those.
Just to be sure, some of these devices will save your property from BSEN62606 arc faults, but if your arc doesn't comply with said standard, then your house can burn down because they just don't care about those.
what a biggern this one is. going to have to split it over 2 days. jamie blantant has made some good videos about cutting holes into boxes for panel mounting
I've had quiet a few nuisance trip with Contactum with brand new appliances as well as it seems if you turn then on fully loaded +10-20 amp after start up flash it fault trips, spoke to rep and they mentioned something about they have to be cold started... what ever the fuck that is. Opted to give wylex a go on new boards as CEF was shifting them and not looked back!
difficult thing is now i have to produce an estimate for multiple circuits in student accommodation which now require AFDDs. all the boards are hager so im stuck with quoting their ridiculous prices plus ridiculous functionality
One thing I think all the manufacturers should do is to have 3 physically separate LEDs to show which aspect of the device (AFDD, RCD, MCB) has tripped the device. As an end user I'd want to know at a glance which aspect of the device has tripped without having to fuck around looking up any colour or flash code.
Regarding the Chint @34 mins - is it perhaps tripping on the first fault after power is applied to it? It doesn't trip a second time, but then you kill the power to the entire setup @35 mins to file the contacts, and then it trips again on first fault after power is restored to it. Maybe it would repeatedly trip if you killed main power after each successful trip?
There may be something in that as the best way to catch the Chint out was from cold - i.e., room temperature and just after power on. The more you play with it, the less likely it seems to want to work, so there may be some analysis it's doing over time to work out if what it's seeing is a fault or a characteristic of the circuit (or something)??
@@dsesuk Right, a kind of "fool me once" scenario, where it won't be fooled twice by the same fault signature. It's probably designed like that to avoid persistent nuisance tripping. Too bad for the scenario where a real fault occurs, it trips, the home owner resets it and then it refuses to trip again despite a real fault actually being present.
Very interesting content, it does appear though that I very easily able to hear your poor CRT screaming in any of the "later testing" shots where you're not using the wireless mic!
Ah, not the CRT at fault here, merely my ineptitude. This was my first time recording directly to the laptop instead of via a separate camera. Unfortunately, my laptop has an in-built mic called Realtek Audio and a mic port also called Realtek Audio. I thought I had it set for the mic input, but realised afterwards it was all on the internal mic, hence all the background noise even after I ran it through a filter. Just another instance where programmers don't give any thought into their user interface.
Hi Dave. Fantastic video yet again. May I recommend a modification to your arc chamber, ditch it and replace with a barn or cellar populated by Russian Hamsters (see Fawlty Towes) and everything in 6242Y clipped to surface from the 1970's (faults become more real world and randomly generated). The Russian Hamsters have a similar effect to an AFD by bridging the fault and causing a sufficient fault current to pop even an old Wylex MCB retrofitted to a rewireable fuse board. Get the manufacturers to ditch the electronics and go for a more RSPCA unfriendly approach. Please make sure viewers are aware that if the original fault is not located within a few days then the 'fault flag' will of course be more olfactory than visual. Regards Nick
In lieu of my lack of comment with the" Buy me a coffee" David, here is War and Peace......I love the Director John Hughes intro (Wierd Science)..... a great start. I presume Fat Sam has invited you on for tomorrow evening, as he loves every opportunity to push Hagar's PR spiel. 😂 I giggled at the bottle of whiskey with the security tag, though I won't ask how that came to be! Back to the testing... The fact that Libbi's Hagar worked straight off, to me, will lead Hagar to diss you . They won't admit that they have duds out in the market place, more, that you have done something to the device, after all you got it to trip first time tonight. Wylex keeping the fault code on until we get there should really be the standard for everyone to follow, otherwise, what's the point of having the LEDs? As you have said in the past, it is of no use to us turning up to an issue with no indication left to see. It was interesting to note the MK and Fusebox similarities, and not in a good way as I rate Fusebox but not the current incarnation of MK, which makes me suspect they, and 10-16 do come from the same Chinese factory......I believe a Chinese factory invites companies to buy their PCB internals and they go off to various assembly plants (in China) to have proprietory firmware installed, boxed up, and shipped out. BTW, NOBODY was thinking "David, you handsome well hung stallion". You need to change your bathroom mirror matey! 🍆😜 Become "Too lurgy-like" FFS David!!!!!, you have been like this from the start, and not in a bad way, but Scolmore have gone down in my estimation for denying you an AFDD, but still using your ugly pic (a face only a mother could love kind of face) in the same breath, it is beyond reproach. Aplause to Lewden for their openess aqnd way hay Europa think you are an influencer? 😂😂😂😂😂😂. BG should also be in the naughty corner. Thanks for entertaining me ( but not in a Robbie Williams sort of way) this evening, me Old China and I look forward to the next (non-AFDD) instalment from DSES. Chin-chin, hic! 🥴
Nah, I'm not on tonight's pod Olly - I'm not sure who is. I'vce got people around anyway so may miss the chat myself. Libby's device tripping when mine wouldn't is a shame. In my Hager vs. Hager video, the device log is on event 66 or something, so the fact it's now showing event 88 illustrates the success I had getting that unit to operate off-camera while I was messing about with different electrode materials and sizes. My model might have eventually worked if I pratted about with it enough, but Libby's going straight off the bat after pressing record was a godsend. As for Europa - yeah, they were overthinking things. Influencer?? Come on kids, you're a small player and I'm offering to show your goods to a relevant audience of a couple o' thousand sparks - don't jerk around and just do it FFS!
The Hager attitude stinks of Dieselgate... I suspect that they've designed something to pass a particular test rather than something which works and is validated by a test. Regardless of the test method chosen for validation, the product should still be capable of satisfying the other test and conditions outside of the perfect lab. The very clear and obvious repeatable series arcs presented that do not reliably trip the Hager devices are a significant concern and in my mind justifies the scepticism I hold towards AFDDs being mandated in regs - if manufacturers can get away with selling devices that don't provide adequate protection then there's no point in them being fitted & this is made worse given that Hager are a brand that most would consider more reliable than the likes of BG etc.
So, the hager can detect lab condition arcs, rather than real world arcs ... brilliant! Presumably this video was also an experiment for AI upscaling from 360p potato-vision to FullHD?
I didn't try. Their Acti-9's are 2-module and cost over 200 beer tokens with VAT. I concentrated more on the domestic end as most people being tasked with fitting AFDDs, be it in tall buildings, care homes, HMOs etc., are more likely to throw in something a lot more cost effective than what Schneider are offering. There's no point paying twice the price and getting something twice the size than the likes of Lewden are punting.
At the end of the day an arc is an arc the devices should trip not matter how the arc is generated. I don't understand the reason for using a graphite electrode surely they should be using two copper electrodes as that would represent a real world installation.
I believe the carbon graphite is an ingredient to simulate the burning of insulating materials which influences the arc signature these devices are monitoring for.
IMO - if these AFDDs don't trip when something is glowing bright white then the standard and testing needs to be re-written. These manufactures have clearly designed a product that they can prove passes the 62606 test but in reality wouldn't trip in a real-world event unless everything is pristine and sanded.
Very interesting, it would appear that Hager is not of the hock as it looks like they may well have a QC problem that potentially affects the reliability of their products. Certainly, a brand I have lost faith in and won't be fitting in the future. Their video was hilarious, so badly produced, it was truly awful. When they were talking to their product designer it reminded me of episode Episode 5 from series 4 of the IT Crowd when they contacted the support line. I am guessing they must have worked for Citreon before Hager as they too have a history of the weird and wacky when it comes to the approach to designing products - I jest of course!
I still don't buy the bs answer that their AFDD wasn't fooled by your test rig because it didn't comply with BSwhatever. You had an arc and it didn't trip! Does every arc in the real world conform to BS standards?
To my thinking this is recall situation. What's the point of something that only works once, and only then on a carbon connector that doesn't exist in the real world - except in motor brushes.
Well Hagar the Horrible can't complain about then can they......yeah they probably will, bloody Vikings. On your boat Hagar. 😁 As a retired IT professional I can see a potential issue/problem with upgradable firmware in Hagar the Horrible. If the _code monkeys_ far cup the firmware then it can/could change how the device works and you knowing how electrons work and I don't will be able to see/imagine how far king bad that could be. A wrong bit of code in a Microsoft update knocked out a popular accounting package that affected *tens of millions* of computers around the world. 😲 An inadvertent router update in Australia in 2023 resulted in 12+ million people losing mobile phone and Internet access for 6+ hours. A protection device in your CU (fusebox for some of us downunder) is not a good thing to get screwed up. 💥
It's a great movie. Now we know about the existence of 16 devices. Poor electricians, how to deal with all this when false shutdowns begin, or the house burns down, and the device does not work! Old people should buy medicines together with AFDD! AFDD can cause stroke and heart attack. *** The IEC 62606 standard suggests using arc generators that do not provide real-world operating conditions. The first generator contains a graphite electrode, but the connection of metal conductors or parts is actually heated. The second generator contains insulation pierced by current at a voltage of 7 kV and 2 kV, but a voltage of 0.4 kV actually operates. There is no evidence that these generators adequately reproduce defective connections.
@@dsesuk Oh you poor bugger. I'm surprised the bug had any chance with the alcohol competition already in your system. I'm glad you are back on form now.
@@dsesukOh you poor bugger. I didn't think the bug would have a chance with the whiskey in your system. Glad you are feeling better by the looks of it.
lets break out the side cutters and sand down the twin and earth in the wall and then the hager might trip, what a load of crap, still a big avoid for the hager and chint
"Oh Contrair Rodney"...sorry, Paul....... this is a work of genius. I bet it took ages, what with complying with EN62606/20132 A1 and getting all of those manufacters involved... kicking and screaming, if they wanted to be invloved or not.
Brilliant video, respect for all the effort, I love how manufacturers cut you off block you etc rather than engaging and working out what needs to be better for the likes of us to consider using them. Bad mouth our products and we will block you on Twitter 😭
no way that hager afdd tripped off thats got to be some camera trickery. me and my associates spent days trying to get that to trip off with no sucess. would i ever buy one no. as science goes for anything to be valid successful experiement it has to be repeatable and peer reviewed i have tried with no sucess on a real faulty appliance where other afdds trip off. prehaps hager have followed the standards a little bit too closely and made something that is tuned to unrealistic lab conditions and not the real world. as you say what gives me confidence is that other manufactuers have bought in a devices with similarlaties. i suspect there testing is closer to the real world situations they are used in. hence why you and i could get them to trip off relativly easy. so moral of the story hager new flashy afdd are they as great as they make out. probally not. are they worth buying probally not. do i think they will be around for the long haul. no i think market forces will put to an end this affd and hager will pull the plug on this design and concept.
No camera trickery Ryan. In my Hager vs. Hager video, the device log is on event 66 or something, so the fact it's now showing event 88 illustrates the success I had getting that unit to operate off-camera while I was messing about with different electrode materials and sizes. My model might have eventually worked if I pratted about with it enough, but Libby's going straight off the bat after pressing record was damn lucky. Why that attempt worked when 99 others before and after it didn't I don't know. If you want to retry, my best success with the Hager was on the bench using a 20mm carbon graphite rod and a plumbers 15mm copper pipe with nothing on the end! Even then, it would only operate a couple of times before becoming unresponsive. I had to shrink the electrodes down to 6mm for the carbon graphite and a pointed copper rod end to make it more 62606-ish, after which it didn't want to know with the exception of that one event I caught on camera.
If you want a Hager AFDD to trip just invest in a Andersen EV charger and a Porsche Taycan it will trip every time you plug it in😜
@@liberatodelgreco4430 not sure if my youtube budget can stretch that far. it would take years for the ads to pay that back.
@@liberatodelgreco4430 Bit of an expensive way to do a test, though.
By far the best electrical channel on youtube, without actually trying to be
That fact that Hager's offering only seems to work under very specific test parameters and not when an arc is melting the chamber is still deeply concerning.
That is primarily the fault of the standard though. It makes little sense to allow choice of test procedure, which give different results.
The minimising of nuisance tripping seems to have been given priority over sensitivity, understandable from some perspectives, but rendering the AFDD ineffective.
What a time to be alive, when I can watch this on a Saturday evening, thanks David !!
You must be married and crushed like me 😂
I love watching all these informative videos on you tube… and when I’ve done with those, your videos are pretty good too!
Thanks again. Can't believe you're tearing yourself away from those blue skies down there for this grey drabness up here!
Thanks David - where you find the time to build and test all this stuff is beyond me, but I'm very happy you do.
Generous as always old chap. I'll blow it (perhaps unwisely) on a slap up filthy KFC!
It seems to me, as a non sparky, that if the 30A junction box laying loose under a cupboard fitted by a kitchen fitter started sparking like that when i switched the air fryer on then id want any afdd to trip. That it takes you so much effort to trip some of them seems worrying to me.
There's a line between perfect lab conditions and grotty real world conditions and I do wonder if some brands are too close to 'the ideal'.
Love your honesty on the DSES channel. You're getting better and better, a bit like a fine wine, gets better with age.
Thinking that the party poopers should grow a pair because if their product was any good, they would stand by it and allow you to conduct your tests, which is more real world out in the field than the lab conditions the manufacturers have.
Scolmore's rejection said "as a business we cannot knowingly endorse for our products to be tested/evaluated in a way that is currently outside of the BS standard." As the Garo worked just fine, and Elucian appears to be a re-skin of that, I'm sure it would have worked just fine.
AFDD Roundup? YES PLEASE!
* Gets comfortable *
This one works better if you're uncomfortable.
What an absolutely fantastic detailed video. Thank you.
This had been invaluable, as it showed that only the Wylex brand retained the historic fault and didn't disappear after a while. For this, this is the brand I've gone for. Wylex for the win!
I'm so disappointed that there is no standardisation of the colours for fault conditions..
You've excelled yourself on this one, in my opinion. However, I think you needed a break and do some LED lamp failures, crap wiring fixes, consumer unit bodge fixes 😂
I'm confused, are the electrics in my home only allowed EN62606 compliant faults to comply with these AFDD things?
Exactly this 🫡
Seems that way with Hager, certainly
Looks like you put alot of effort into that rig Davo, i think you should be proud of the efforts you go to.. farting around or not its still more than others have done so keep it up Sir.
Too much effort went into this one and it wasn't much fun. Give me a nice fault finding video any day!
@@dsesuk Yer but the quality was pretty good.. might have been over kill but it looks swanky 😎 and goes well with the rest of ya man-cave.
I'm not a sparky but understand what your doing. At the end of the day you have created an arc fault, I would use even a tool station special over an hagar
Thanks
Too kind, thanks for the funds!
@@dsesuk that much effort deserves a pint!
Literally just got back in from work and now I get to watch this and have a pint, result.
Fantastic amount of Work went into this presentation 🙂🇮🇪☘️
The simple fact of there being so much variation in what is and isn't a fault in the standard test models says, to me at least, that the whole AFDD thing has a long long way to go before it becomes something you can put in and walk away from knowing that the installation has useful protection.
Great! a colleague does the same thing as me on his channel!) I also experienced 4 AFDD
Hi David. I've had a nuisance trip with a 16 amp Fuse Box AFDD installed on a new 3kw radial circuit, not installed by us. Two identical circuits installed, swapped the circuits over and the issue travelled so there's some issue with the install. All wiring tested and checked out fine so in my opinion it's pointing to the thermostat arching when switching on and off under the 3Kw load. Current status is the thermostats have been swapped over and awaiting a call to see if it trips. A bit of an odd one.
I'd like to see an AFD fault in the wild - I've not had one to look at yet. It's the kind of thing that could be really interesting to hunt down.... or a right pain in the arse.
Thanks - truly informative stuff! A whole bottle of red’s worth too!
Very kind, thank you old sport!
I picked 8 as the first one to test too... scary😂 Great presentation as usual. Thanks David
Thanks
Very kind of you, ta! I shall spend it unwisely!
Great Video Dave, thanks for all your time and hard work - gives an electrician on the ground something to go on - you are a hero!
As an enjoyer of functional protection devices, I am going to miss this amazing series!
Amazing video as always.
I wonder if there is a difference in trip behavior depending on whether the circuit is energised or not at the start of the test? ie: test starts with spark gap closed verses open. Not sure if you started each test in the same state. Either way, you're a legend mate. Thanks for dealing with all this crap.
Great content as always, David.
I had an interesting incident. I fitted a Verso AFDD on a rewired oven circuit, the oven kept tripping, I thought it may have been a dodgy AFDD and so I replaced it with another Verso AFDD and it continued tripping.
In the meantime, the customer decided to replace their 1980's oven and so I returned and replaced the RCBO for a Verso AFDD, the oven circuit no longer trips.
I tried locating the fault in the 1980's oven but sadly was unable to. This is a worry for rewiring so we will have to add it to our T&C's.
Zippy and bungle show. 10/10 again big boy
Very interesting and well done David Savery for demonstrating all of them brands 👍
Only just started the journey on hopefully becoming an electrician and couldn't think of anything better to do with my 26 year old self on a Saturday night than that watch an hour plus video comparing AFDD's, our new house was just renovated and rewired, we went with all Wylex AFDD's.
Thanks for the great video Mr Savery.
I've had my Wylex in since 2020 without much issue so far. Two AFD trips in that time, both one-offs on different circuits seemingly with no rhyme or reason.
@@dsesuk We’ve had a few residual current trips but we managed to narrow it down to how my grandad wired his old garage via some 2.5mm in a plug then clipped along the side of the house and painted with weather resistant paint, been out there for 30 years, tripped every time it rained so we just removed all the cable. 🤣
David you are a legend, thanks for a great insight to all the various AFDD and most of all your time and a very lovely mention. I look forward to catching up to the near future.
Cheers Andy. But seriously, leave the friggin' guitar at home next time.
I’ve got to learn to play it somewhere. Lol
Next time we're passing, I'll bring my bass guitar, how about that..? I can belt out a passable version of the F1 theme (Fleetwood Mac's The Chain), although I must admit it'll be a while before John McVie needs to worry 🎸 😋
01:09:08 nuisance trips, the Yanks have the exact same sorts of problems you are demonstrating here with their AFCIs. Not surprising really since the names behind the brands on both sides of the pond are often the same, and no doubt there will be generic chips to be found in several brands of AFCIs too.
I think its all very well having a set BS standard for testing these but it seems very precise compared to to the real world, whats to say that kettle or fridge or even ring circuit can produce the exact arc profile as in testing.
I might install the hagers at home and keep my fingers crossed I get the right kind of fault… or Hager, novel idea maybe build something that works without updates 🍻
Pissing myself laughing at the very end!! Brilliant !!!
ey up.
19:10 mechanical flag? There's standard for shower isolators that requires a mechanical indicator, as well as the illuminated one. Going th guess there's a similar requirement in the standards for 60898 or any of the other ones?
59:30 i'd be all for supporting wholesalers if they could match the in and out time of places like Screwfix. Most of them need to have a padded wall for sparks to bang their head off after they've been waiting for 20 fkn minutes for someone to get off a phone and come to a counter, just to charge over the odds for something and then print off a receipt on a dot matrix from the eighties!
Honestly, I can't wait for them to go out of business and they'll no one to blame but themselves. . . imho
carry on
That is a bugbar about the wholesalers: I hate waiting at the counter for ages while the lads are all clearly having a laugh out back, and I hate anywhere that prioritises phone calls over me standing in person at the counter. I had a dig at one of the CEF chaps recently for doing that to me. As for the rest, I find the materials at the wholesaler tend to be better branded and better quality. Last time I bought trunking from Screwfix, it shattered as I popped the lid on, and I've another video where I bemoan their conduit for not bending properly. My wholesalers tend to reward my regular custom, so while CEF might look expensive on the face of it, by the time my account manager has passed the invoice it's usually well below the public price. Add to that I get a 2.5% discount for paying my account off every month. I'd hate to be left with only the likes of Screwfix and Toolstation with the tat they punt.
Great work again David. Dedication!
Starting with no. 8 caused my OCD to trip!
So the takeaway for folks with Hager AFDDs installed at home (like me) is once a month go around and sand all the connections of the circuit and you can sleep easy.
Would be interesting to know if your results now correlate with the tests that brands did to comply with 62606 - we know Hager used the cable method… maybe chint too?
Great video, and thanks for the name check Funds incoming for you to help cover the cost of this impressive public service you do. ⭐️
52:35 looks like Lisa stopped by the party.😆😆
That was weird....used West Base for the first time this week.....ordered some external lights, very good and fast delivery, will Def use again
.......Oh God just seen end of vid with the Hager boys, priceless
Good on you Marky - I'll have to put some business their way myself.
jeez.. thanks for putting all this shyte together David. Got back late and thought, 'fook me, that looks interesting'...
Quality viewing as usual (even during & after Trivento Malbec). Genuinely impressed- thanks.
Hi the only brands I think left out from the Party Were Honeywell metal clad CP Abb protek legrand and Doepeke most very large devices.
The Doepke ones look remarkably similar to Eaton.
Danson, Protek and YESSS' Eris Pro look similar to the MK/Fusebox/Live offerings
I didn't know Protek and Danson were still going! I considered mentioning ABB, but they're just not on the domestic radar which is also the case with the others. Anything that's two or three module these days isn't going to be cheap and isn't going in domestically so I steered clear. In-house brands are often reskins like how Denman's stuff is rebadged Lewden, so not much merit in delving too deeply into those.
Just to be sure, some of these devices will save your property from BSEN62606 arc faults, but if your arc doesn't comply with said standard, then your house can burn down because they just don't care about those.
I think logic dictates we stay clear of the 'H' word.
I see you've modified it a bit since we were there. Thanks for the call the other day, always good to waffle ☎
I really enjoy your Videos.
what a biggern this one is. going to have to split it over 2 days. jamie blantant has made some good videos about cutting holes into boxes for panel mounting
There was another edit where it was split into two parts Ryan, but I thought sod it - I'll just do a big dump all in one go.
I've had quiet a few nuisance trip with Contactum with brand new appliances as well as it seems if you turn then on fully loaded +10-20 amp after start up flash it fault trips, spoke to rep and they mentioned something about they have to be cold started... what ever the fuck that is. Opted to give wylex a go on new boards as CEF was shifting them and not looked back!
difficult thing is now i have to produce an estimate for multiple circuits in student accommodation which now require AFDDs. all the boards are hager so im stuck with quoting their ridiculous prices plus ridiculous functionality
One thing I think all the manufacturers should do is to have 3 physically separate LEDs to show which aspect of the device (AFDD, RCD, MCB) has tripped the device. As an end user I'd want to know at a glance which aspect of the device has tripped without having to fuck around looking up any colour or flash code.
It's a shame 62606 didn't offer any kind of model guidance on fault code reporting to standardise it more across brands.
Regarding the Chint @34 mins - is it perhaps tripping on the first fault after power is applied to it? It doesn't trip a second time, but then you kill the power to the entire setup @35 mins to file the contacts, and then it trips again on first fault after power is restored to it. Maybe it would repeatedly trip if you killed main power after each successful trip?
There may be something in that as the best way to catch the Chint out was from cold - i.e., room temperature and just after power on. The more you play with it, the less likely it seems to want to work, so there may be some analysis it's doing over time to work out if what it's seeing is a fault or a characteristic of the circuit (or something)??
@@dsesuk Right, a kind of "fool me once" scenario, where it won't be fooled twice by the same fault signature. It's probably designed like that to avoid persistent nuisance tripping. Too bad for the scenario where a real fault occurs, it trips, the home owner resets it and then it refuses to trip again despite a real fault actually being present.
Fair play David, quality video!
Out on the piss and this crops up in the bog. Time to head home!!
Very interesting content, it does appear though that I very easily able to hear your poor CRT screaming in any of the "later testing" shots where you're not using the wireless mic!
Ah, not the CRT at fault here, merely my ineptitude. This was my first time recording directly to the laptop instead of via a separate camera. Unfortunately, my laptop has an in-built mic called Realtek Audio and a mic port also called Realtek Audio. I thought I had it set for the mic input, but realised afterwards it was all on the internal mic, hence all the background noise even after I ran it through a filter. Just another instance where programmers don't give any thought into their user interface.
Hi Dave. Fantastic video yet again. May I recommend a modification to your arc chamber, ditch it and replace with a barn or cellar populated by Russian Hamsters (see Fawlty Towes) and everything in 6242Y clipped to surface from the 1970's (faults become more real world and randomly generated). The Russian Hamsters have a similar effect to an AFD by bridging the fault and causing a sufficient fault current to pop even an old Wylex MCB retrofitted to a rewireable fuse board. Get the manufacturers to ditch the electronics and go for a more RSPCA unfriendly approach. Please make sure viewers are aware that if the original fault is not located within a few days then the 'fault flag' will of course be more olfactory than visual. Regards Nick
In lieu of my lack of comment with the" Buy me a coffee" David, here is War and Peace......I love the Director John Hughes intro (Wierd Science)..... a great start. I presume Fat Sam has invited you on for tomorrow evening, as he loves every opportunity to push Hagar's PR spiel. 😂
I giggled at the bottle of whiskey with the security tag, though I won't ask how that came to be!
Back to the testing... The fact that Libbi's Hagar worked straight off, to me, will lead Hagar to diss you . They won't admit that they have duds out in the market place, more, that you have done something to the device, after all you got it to trip first time tonight.
Wylex keeping the fault code on until we get there should really be the standard for everyone to follow, otherwise, what's the point of having the LEDs? As you have said in the past, it is of no use to us turning up to an issue with no indication left to see.
It was interesting to note the MK and Fusebox similarities, and not in a good way as I rate Fusebox but not the current incarnation of MK, which makes me suspect they, and 10-16 do come from the same Chinese factory......I believe a Chinese factory invites companies to buy their PCB internals and they go off to various assembly plants (in China) to have proprietory firmware installed, boxed up, and shipped out. BTW, NOBODY was thinking "David, you handsome well hung stallion". You need to change your bathroom mirror matey! 🍆😜
Become "Too lurgy-like" FFS David!!!!!, you have been like this from the start, and not in a bad way, but Scolmore have gone down in my estimation for denying you an AFDD, but still using your ugly pic (a face only a mother could love kind of face) in the same breath, it is beyond reproach. Aplause to Lewden for their openess aqnd way hay Europa think you are an influencer? 😂😂😂😂😂😂. BG should also be in the naughty corner. Thanks for entertaining me ( but not in a Robbie Williams sort of way) this evening, me Old China and I look forward to the next (non-AFDD) instalment from DSES. Chin-chin, hic! 🥴
Nah, I'm not on tonight's pod Olly - I'm not sure who is. I'vce got people around anyway so may miss the chat myself. Libby's device tripping when mine wouldn't is a shame. In my Hager vs. Hager video, the device log is on event 66 or something, so the fact it's now showing event 88 illustrates the success I had getting that unit to operate off-camera while I was messing about with different electrode materials and sizes. My model might have eventually worked if I pratted about with it enough, but Libby's going straight off the bat after pressing record was a godsend. As for Europa - yeah, they were overthinking things. Influencer?? Come on kids, you're a small player and I'm offering to show your goods to a relevant audience of a couple o' thousand sparks - don't jerk around and just do it FFS!
The Hager attitude stinks of Dieselgate... I suspect that they've designed something to pass a particular test rather than something which works and is validated by a test. Regardless of the test method chosen for validation, the product should still be capable of satisfying the other test and conditions outside of the perfect lab. The very clear and obvious repeatable series arcs presented that do not reliably trip the Hager devices are a significant concern and in my mind justifies the scepticism I hold towards AFDDs being mandated in regs - if manufacturers can get away with selling devices that don't provide adequate protection then there's no point in them being fitted & this is made worse given that Hager are a brand that most would consider more reliable than the likes of BG etc.
What remains to be seen is the sales ranking of each device...
So, the hager can detect lab condition arcs, rather than real world arcs ... brilliant!
Presumably this video was also an experiment for AI upscaling from 360p potato-vision to FullHD?
Yes yes yes...Granville fetch a cloth
Were you not able to get a Schneider Electric AFDD?
I didn't try. Their Acti-9's are 2-module and cost over 200 beer tokens with VAT. I concentrated more on the domestic end as most people being tasked with fitting AFDDs, be it in tall buildings, care homes, HMOs etc., are more likely to throw in something a lot more cost effective than what Schneider are offering. There's no point paying twice the price and getting something twice the size than the likes of Lewden are punting.
Excellent Dave. I am, however, massively disappointed that you said "MK" multiple times and there was no subsequent "mmmkay" 😅
I feared the gag was getting old, but I'm sure I'll fall back to it again in the future!
@@dsesuk never gets old, I had to say it out loud to myself to fill the void
@dsesuk the gag was getting old?
Pot meet kettle 😂
@@joesouthgatesame I had to say it myself as well
How come we missed this until now..? Oh I know, better things to do, strange that 😋
At the end of the day an arc is an arc the devices should trip not matter how the arc is generated. I don't understand the reason for using a graphite electrode surely they should be using two copper electrodes as that would represent a real world installation.
I believe the carbon graphite is an ingredient to simulate the burning of insulating materials which influences the arc signature these devices are monitoring for.
Are they updating individual devices to avoid nuisance trips on that particular installation? Doesn't that sound absolutely bonkers?
It does to me. Seems like a very odd model to wait and see who complains, then blind just their unit to their complaint!
@@dsesuk It's probably cheaper than replacing the whole model across the board.
Arh. The long awaited video😊. Looking a bit tired there David
I'm just relieved Noah didn't encounter an ark fault. Just imagine.
IMO - if these AFDDs don't trip when something is glowing bright white then the standard and testing needs to be re-written. These manufactures have clearly designed a product that they can prove passes the 62606 test but in reality wouldn't trip in a real-world event unless everything is pristine and sanded.
When you play with it like this, there does seem to be a fuss-factor to device operation and it's hard to know what's more reflective of real-world.
Fun fact,I’m watching from Nashville Tennessee
Looks like you made the adjustable chamber out of an old mitre saw clamp. 🤣🤣🤣
Excellent spot. That's exactly what it was!
Very interesting, it would appear that Hager is not of the hock as it looks like they may well have a QC problem that potentially affects the reliability of their products. Certainly, a brand I have lost faith in and won't be fitting in the future. Their video was hilarious, so badly produced, it was truly awful. When they were talking to their product designer it reminded me of episode Episode 5 from series 4 of the IT Crowd when they contacted the support line. I am guessing they must have worked for Citreon before Hager as they too have a history of the weird and wacky when it comes to the approach to designing products - I jest of course!
I still don't buy the bs answer that their AFDD wasn't fooled by your test rig because it didn't comply with BSwhatever. You had an arc and it didn't trip! Does every arc in the real world conform to BS standards?
To my thinking this is recall situation. What's the point of something that only works once, and only then on a carbon connector that doesn't exist in the real world - except in motor brushes.
Well Hagar the Horrible can't complain about then can they......yeah they probably will, bloody Vikings. On your boat Hagar. 😁
As a retired IT professional I can see a potential issue/problem with upgradable firmware in Hagar the Horrible. If the _code monkeys_ far cup the firmware then it can/could change how the device works and you knowing how electrons work and I don't will be able to see/imagine how far king bad that could be. A wrong bit of code in a Microsoft update knocked out a popular accounting package that affected *tens of millions* of computers around the world. 😲
An inadvertent router update in Australia in 2023 resulted in 12+ million people losing mobile phone and Internet access for 6+ hours. A protection device in your CU (fusebox for some of us downunder) is not a good thing to get screwed up. 💥
It's a great movie.
Now we know about the existence of 16 devices.
Poor electricians, how to deal with all this when false shutdowns begin, or the house burns down, and the device does not work!
Old people should buy medicines together with AFDD! AFDD can cause stroke and heart attack.
***
The IEC 62606 standard suggests using arc generators that do not provide real-world operating conditions.
The first generator contains a graphite electrode, but the connection of metal conductors or parts is actually heated.
The second generator contains insulation pierced by current at a voltage of 7 kV and 2 kV, but a voltage of 0.4 kV actually operates.
There is no evidence that these generators adequately reproduce defective connections.
10 thumbs up ❤️❤️❤️
This is some crack.
🍺🍻🍺🥃🥳
You really should be a teacher.
Have you been of for some off reason
This has taken a long time to put together... however amateur it all looks. Also, I've been down with COVID again.
@@dsesuk Oh you poor bugger. I'm surprised the bug had any chance with the alcohol competition already in your system. I'm glad you are back on form now.
@@dsesukOh you poor bugger. I didn't think the bug would have a chance with the whiskey in your system. Glad you are feeling better by the looks of it.
lets break out the side cutters and sand down the twin and earth in the wall and then the hager might trip, what a load of crap, still a big avoid for the hager and chint
:wanck
It is an' all.
my god what monstrosity have you made
Seventh gate of hell right here.
"Oh Contrair Rodney"...sorry, Paul....... this is a work of genius. I bet it took ages, what with complying with EN62606/20132 A1 and getting all of those manufacters involved... kicking and screaming, if they wanted to be invloved or not.
Brilliant video, respect for all the effort, I love how manufacturers cut you off block you etc rather than engaging and working out what needs to be better for the likes of us to consider using them.
Bad mouth our products and we will block you on Twitter 😭
Thanks
Most kind as always, I shall piss it up the wall accordingly!
Thanks
Most kind old sport!