In case you wish to check out my courses, here are some links: "King of the Road" 2-month online course: moto-control.shop/subscription/ BEGINNER rider video course: moto-control.shop/product/moto-control-beginner-rider-video-course/ ADVANCED rider video course ("Training Routine"): moto-control.shop/product/training-routine-video-course-ebook/
Been riding for 60 years. Raced speedway and roadracing. Military dispatch rider. Uses different styles. Think it's important to change riding style depending on situation.
THIS. Low traction like dirt, Counter Lean. City streets where I'll never use all lean angle anyways, Counter Lean or stay neutral. But go fast eat ass? then yeah lean lean.
Normal, speed limit level street riding, lean with the bike. Super high speed cornering, lean more than the bike to keep from scraping hard parts an lifting a tire. Slow speed maneuvering, tight cornering, slaloms, or low traction situations, counter lean to have faster change in direction, tighten up your corners or keep weight over the tires so they dont wash out in gravel. Its a matter of how, what, an where you are riding.
Exactly that. Long sweeping corners which are good visible i ride with a nice hang off. Tight twisties n such with counterlean for better reaction time of road hazards appear
I think that F9 made their point quite understandable: Counterbalancing just as hanging-off are perfectly fine given the appropriate situations. Long and fast corners benefit from hanging into the corner, giving you better shift of mass into the inner side while allowing the bike to stay low without exceeding max. lean angle. Counterbalcing is generally better for fast paced shift of lateral momentum, in tight corners that force you to slow down considerably, plus in any situation where you need an elevated leveled viewpoint. Just as a MotoGP rider would certainly have issues in city traffic with „hanging-off-only“, a police motorcyclist performing „counterbalancing-only“ wouldn’t get the best experience and performance out of a twisty hill pass. Both techniques are valid with respect to their intended purpose - and you should try to master BOTH as good as possible. In contrast: Greg Widmar (MotoJitsu) has simply turned into a pretentious, thin-skinned, preachy media personality, explaining only little of his rationale and simply marking his point by, well, marking a point. Additionally, his expensive Amazon-printed exercise ‚books‘ are mere 30 page abstracts of general concepts you can get everywhere on the internet for free. I have grown quite disillusioned by the guy as time went on. Only little insight to be gained from his videos recently.
I think you’re overweighting the form and personality over MJ (Greg) message. Sometimes he’s somewhat too blunt and direct on some controversial topics but I think his message can’t be more clear! I’m learning a lot from him and care more about the message and can’t care less about style. About the books, it’s just a way to have some income for him and they’re useful. That argument that you can find anything on the internet is true, but for almost everything, but that’s doesn’t make any less useful. And, anyway, he’s everything on his videos for free! I bought his app to have his exercises that I find useful to practice AND a way to say thank you for his effort to pass on his knowledge to others (yes, I know, he makes money from TH-cam views, but this “thank you “ is more personalized). I follow him and some others who I find to be useful and seem to have plenty of knowledge, being one of them Moto Control - Andrey. He has a completely different style, and each of them have different styles! Sometimes the style helps, sometimes not! F9 is a great content creator, i consider that he has substantial knowledge, but sometimes his style gets much in my way, maybe because English is not my natural language or something and because of that style i reach the end of some video and find myself confused “what a hell was the message/ conclusion about”? Solution: try to view again the video, see the transcription, research elsewhere the subject to gain more traction about it to be able to understand better. So, my point is, if I find that some person has knowledge that can benefit me I try to concentrate more on the message and less or nothing what is around it. This channel has the message and a very accommodating, friendly and even funny style. Very good.
@@carlostomas3698 TLDR… you surely invested a lot of time into defending a man who after all is a complete stranger to both of us. I criticized his character, yes. That’s what besides knowledge makes a good tutor. He might have been a great (yet narrow-minded) drill instructor in the USMC, fair enough, but that attitude doesn’t traverse well into civilian life.
@@TheUnsungVil No, not at all! It was just to make a point. I think he doesn’t need anyone to defend him, just that I really appreciate his teaching in my recent initiation on motorcycles. The long text is just my style ☺️ and a problem. I suspect that my brain is incapable of transmitting a message in a short form…I don’t know, but I’m already old to become better at this, I guess 😂 Something I missed and to maintain my style: I find interesting that you didn’t read my post but, however, you felt the need to “reply”. What’s wrong with us? Trying to defend someone I do t know, you replying to someone you also don’t know and reply to something you didn’t read. Yeah, the world is really crazy, indeed!
@@TheUnsungVil And you invested an equal amount of time in slandering him. I recommend that you avoid being a condescending cretin in comments. As a matter of fact MJ recommends counter leaning in slow turns and criticizes riders for focusing too much on body position and leaning. One might disagree with his presentation style but he is ten times the rider F9 is. He makes virtually no mistakes on twisty roads on all kinds of motorcycles.
As a new rider this video is brilliant - thank you. Confirms what I was starting to suspect - that there’s a spectrum from extreme counter-leaning to extreme hanging off the bike through a turn and most road riding is probably best done in a relatively neutral position with counter-balancing and leaning into turns being tools available to use appropriately depending on the bike, speed, road conditions etc and NOT techniques to be used indiscriminately just because a bunch of other people told you to do them because they’re always best or look cool 👍
I've watched a lot of this guy's content. I'm yet to fault anything that he says. There is plenty of other content out there that you are probably best off avoiding. And welcome to the world of riding! Start slowly (literally) and work your way up. A neutral position and getting used to leaning the bike is a very good starting point. That said, don't be afraid to swivel the bike under your hips at low speed. As for hanging off? I'm not there and I'm not going! Enjoy!
Counter leaning is really handy when riding around town at lower speeds - it's much quicker to lean the bike over while counter leaning in order to make a quick turn - up to about 40 mph. But, I don't counter lean when the road is wet and slick, instead I stay neutral. I really only lean to the inside for fun, or when doing canyon rides when the pace picks up. Even then, I never go fast enough to lean over so much at high speeds that the pegs scrape - AFAIK, peg scrapping is only for the track.
I go with what he calls "Mirror kissing" (10:25 min) where you just move your top half over so your head is in line with the inside mirror. Works good on the road (plus you don't look like a tool trying to get your knee down on the road).
I also use more the movement of the upper body, specially if the road is wet and it’s more pronounced if it’s cold and just started doing my ride. Normally I use just neutral body position as it’s more than enough for my usual pace. In slow speed stuff I may counter-lean, depending.
What is the world coming to when we discover TH-camrs might exaggerate a point, take an extreme view, or even deliberately disagree with each other - and for what? Oh that's right... money. I'm shocked. Like all information, whether you pay for it or get it free off the internet, you have to use your own brain and assess it for your own situation. That's why I like this video - explanation and reasoning is presented, and then you are left to make your own judgement on how it might apply to your riding. That's why I keep coming back to this channel, though I do enjoy a laugh with fortnine too occasionally.
Gotta agree with F9, couter-lean is probably best on the street most of the time because it offers the easiest path to change direction in the event of unexpected obstacles or road conditions such as sand, gravel, bad drivers, or deer. Neutral body position can be better when you can see all the way through the turn with no cars or animals present. Hanging off the low-side of the bike has no place on the street - you're too committed to a single course and have very limited ability to react to changing circumstances.
Agree, IMHO in long turns at higher speed, netural is preferably, in all other situations, I prefere counter leaning, hanging off is only to "look good" and make the turn 0,02 sec. faster and I don`t care about either, I like to make the turn as safe as possible.
@@Uriel-Septim. Hanging off is something that has no place on street tires, unpredictable road surfaces, and no pucks. Street tires do not have the lean angle of track tires anyway. Hanging off in an unknown turn is a good way to get a leg or arm torn off if any surprise objects are encountered.
@@Davesworld7 I think that you can just move a cheek off to the inside so that you don't drag hard parts on the ground, hanging off to me does not mean that you have to have a knee on the ground. You are doing it to keep more rubber on the road and have more ground clearance. Lots of the 70s bikes benefited from this because some of them would drag hard parts on aggressive cornering. Hanging off (just hanging a cheek off-and putting a knee into the tank nothing radical) really helps on my 1946 Indian Chief with hand shift. If you don't it will start dragging parts.
@@Davesworld7explain how hanging off and reducing your lean angle is somehow more dangerous rather than beneficial on street tires with less grip. Hanging off doesn't mean dragging a knee or being at absurd angles. If you are hanging off you should still have enough control to avoid obstacles. I feel like you have a lot of funny ideas about hanging off because you dont actually do it.
He didn’t need to, he talks about lean angle, and he clearly shows on the picture how little you gain by hanging off, it’s almost nothing, it won’t affect you that much on the street.
This is a good point, especially with cross terrain or off road tires on slippery surfaces. It is frightening how quickly you can lose traction on rear tire using trail type tires on wet roads. We ride off road in winter here in Canada, ice or hard packed glazed snow will put you on the ground very quickly with too much bike lean. But if you can make it to the medium packed snow, its just spectacular riding ;) Stay gold.
I do the opposite. It's not lean that makes you lose traction, it's too much sideways force on the rubber contact patch (also known as going too fast). Look at people who ride off pavement where they expect to lose traction. They all counterlean.
I’ve tried ripping down the canyons both ways, on a variety of bikes. I concluded…ride how you want. We are not riding to shave off fractions of seconds, but to arrive alive.
Well no. One of these techniques is great for shaving off fractions of seconds, the other is great for stability and visibility. If you want to arrive alive, counterbalance.
one thing I constantly do whenever I am on a fairly calm road is to try and dodge the pot-holes and or sewer covers... less upset of the wheels plus I am also training my counter-balancing and for anyone who happens to be watching, having them ponder my sanity. It's actually fun and because of it, I think I am slightly more comfortable with it.
As with many things in life…it depends. As an owner of several bikes I find the cornering style is largely dependent on which bike I’m riding. In general my Honda Magna cruiser works best when the bike is ridden with a good serving of counter balancing pushing the bike down, my Goldwing in neutral position regardless of load except for really low speed riding, and my lightweight sports machines with neutral to leaning into the turn. Forward or aft positioning is also bike dependent. It’s a great topic for exploration and your vid is fantastic.
If you ride on the road, commuting, touring, and day rides, it is surprising how little of your time is spent going round corners at any significant speed. There is almost always a speed limit, or a vehicle ahead of you, or a poor line of sight, or the risk of debris or potholes, or a vehicle coming the other way, etc. Copying track techniques when you're probably doing 30 to 50 mph on a country lane is just pointless. However, the basic thing to remember is, the bike doesn't lean because of the corner; the bike corners because it is leaning. At any given speed, it will turn tighter and more easily if it is leaning more. On public roads, and at junctions, mini roundabouts and so on, counterbalancing is the way to go. For general flowing along at real world speeds on the open road, a fairly neutral position. The bike is usually better than the rider.
You are the MASTER of Moto Lesson Videos. I have learned so much from you and you’re making a huge difference in my experience. Keep up the GREAT work and easy to learn content.
What a time to be alive, from primitive suspension to active electronic suspension systems. To imagine that Isle of Man was even more dangerous way back then 🤯 Great info Andrey! 🤙
I was in middle school when I learned to ride a bike in the late 90's. I never knew such techniques existed till very recently. Watching these videos I realize that I use counterbalancing a lot in city traffic, bending the bike between knees while staying upright and leaning the bike in very long corners and twisties knowing I don't have to break in the middle. I think if you ride enough you will figure out the right technique that works for you. We don't have to be robots and learn the same techniques, we should rely on our brains and instincts and maybe we will come up with new ingenious ways to approach these.
same here bro. Got my first VFR400 when I was a freshman in 99 and never had to learn. Keep riding and your body does everything. It was interesting to find out the handlebars turn opposite when turning high speed corners. PPL who never rode bikes would never understand lol
@@BOT-xt8puhows that for luck. I'm actually thinking about getting same bike as it's the best power to weight in Australia for a LAMS bike (3years of Lams before the big bikes)
You really are the greatest teacher, A! I'm proud to have been with ya since you were around 10K subscribers and, whenever I hear conflicting info, always come back to you for my educational "center." I'm a daily rider/commuter and own a '21 H-D and '23 H-D, have been licensed for 3yrs, took the full YCRS a year ago, and, when I first started, had 1:1 with a moto-officer whom I credit with giving me the ultimate foundation. But of ALL the TH-camrs, sole credit goes to you for teaching me U-Turns. Everyone else preaches the same (head turn, friction zone, and rear brake), but you did a video a couple of years ago on a H-D and discussed how the initial move is really just a counter-steer and you need to get the bike to full-lock to make the tightest U-Turns. That was my "lightbulb moment" where everything fell into place. This video is demonstrative of your innate ability as a teacher, because you're not negating either technique; instead, you're advocating for the benefits of both, while simultaneously advising when they SHOULDN'T be used, and in the end advising a safe, sound strategy for road-riding. Thank you for all the knowledge you share!
Leaning out is also useful on loose or wet surface. If you are leaning in and you loose traction, you are done. You just flip, face into the road. If you are leaning out, you can actually keep some control, pull the bike up and save it (sometimes). Although it depends on bike type and weight. If the bike is much more heavier than you, you are not pulling the bike up, you are pulling yourself down.
To me it was always a question of how far over you can lean the bike without hitting the pegs or exhaust. Counter leaning for example does not work very well on a cruiser as you cannot lean the bike over very far without hitting pegs or footboards, so it actually makes some sense to try to lean over the bike and keep the bike more vertical. Counter leaning does have one huge advantage on the road. You can see better and further along a corner because your head is higher and not as shifted over towards the apex.
Wait, are you suggesting this answer is not as simple as black or white? That perhaps somehow the truth lies somewhere in the middle? The grey even? That in some instances one side is right and in others, the other side is right? Are you suggesting compromise??? Whoa, revolutionary!!! I wonder what else we could apply this incredible philosophy of taking the best parts from each side and meeting in the middle to. 🤔 imagine the possibilities….
A fine presentation that overcomes the rigid thinking of either/or dogmatists. Rather, use the technique appropriate for the task at hand. Once again, every rider has to ride his own ride, not blindly follow TH-cam gurus.
As an old rider, thank you for your video(s). Indeed you need to actually know all the techniques and use them appropriately, depending on bike, situation etc. Also love that you keep your native language colour while speaking very correct English.
body position, hanging of, neutral or counter.. only depends on the bike you ride and how fast you ride it.. as someone who started on a moped, rode hard enduro with a CR250.. being holingan on MT09 to carving mountain twisties with CBR1000rr.. body position changes with your bike type, your speed and surface you ride on(AND weather)... my advice is to take as many riding schools as you can afford and practice practice practice.. not to only get better and faster but SAFER rider
Fantastic! I really appreciate your “balanced” approach to explaining how these different techniques all have their place when riding - an excellent clip 10/10!
Excellent video! Audio 10/10. Videography 9/10. Script/messaging 10/10. Entertainment value 10/10. You have come a long way in the last 24 months and are continuing to improve. So glad that you have kept with it! Putting on my engineer’s hat, body position is all about available tire grip versus CG elevation (z-axis strategy). This is made abundantly clear at a moto-cross where lateral tire grip is very low; the riders’ CG is almost always directly over the bikes longitudinal CG plane (except when aerial where the tire grip is zero and all forces are inertial and ballistic).
Hello from Rhode Island! I had little experience riding when 20 years ago I used too much rear break while trying to stop. No helmet, severe concussion, and I had a verbal stutter for about a year. I love your channel because it is definitely helping people stay safe. I have much appreciation for your time and effort. Thank you.
The subject is well taken apart. Super material. It's like debating which party is better.... Christmas or Easter? Depending on the situation, motorcycle, speed, etc. Add Moto Gymkhana and staying in line with the motorcycle and without putting your knees out.
Sometimes (if not always) safety is more important than efficiency (faster driving). When driving in a city vision of the road and mirrors, the ability to change directions easily and the protection of your body are very important subjects. Therefore the lean is quite more risky when some car or pedestrian or pet comes in your way, especially in a corner. A more neutral approach is the best bet and can be changed depending the situation. Police officers prioritize safety not the fastest technique. Every person has it's priorities.
One of the best approaches I ever seen about this subject and with an history context. Great! Really great! Just one problem: I’m always very jealous about the spaces you can get to practice.
You are sensible and balanced as always, Andrei - bravo. I've already sent in a protest against F9 - how the fuck can leaning in be altogether wrong for road riding, or at least head inwards for us grassroots? I appreciate - and use both techniques - there are two alternatives for different situations; speed is generally the difference, as Andrei points out. But this is sooo typical F9, and he seems always to be able to leave the scene w/o critisism.
Thanks for making this video. After having completed advanced courses years ago that taught minimizing lean by leaning off, I had a system that worked. I subsequently took quite a large break from riding and, upon my return, saw Fortnine's video. The result was going with some good riders who highlighted that I'd built a bad habit with counter leaning at speed. I've since completed more advanced courses and now use counter leaning when I'm going slow or off-road, and I lean in at higher speeds at the track to avoid scraping parts of the bike in corners.
My point being that Fortnine made it sound like it was perfectly fine to do at speed and it resulted in me getting a habit that made me more dangerous a rider.
I went around a curve a little too hot on my 2007 V-Star 1300 (with a passenger no less) and I got the opportunity to learn the easy way lean limits of a cruiser. I scraped my floorboard. Now I'm gun-shy and I'm trying to learn techniques of better cornering with less lean angle. NOT BEING DRAMATIC, I've seen plenty of videos of people crashing because they scraped hard parts and the metal became a fulcrum lifting the tire off the pavement. At slow speed I can really see the benefits of counterbalancing, BUT at higher speeds you better lean in to avoid scraping especially on bikes with lower ground clearances.
Thank you so much for your excellent video! Please do not stop doing what you are doing. You have excellent tutorials and always inject great, light-hearted humour into it, making it more engaging. You are a fantastic rider!
Motorcycling advice is usually dispensed on the basis of techniques built on experience. Your videos bring some fresh air with a rarely seen understanding of the physics of the bike.
I always lean in when traction is a concern, I just don't go full knee-down because it's not necessary. Both methods can provide benefits depending on the situation! Love doing both because they're both very much a blast to do :)
Interestingly enough, modern tires are harder in the middle and softer toward the edges. So by leaning you're moving towards a harder, more tractionless part of the tire.
@@lpls Yes but you also have MORE tire making contact with the ground when your motorcycle is completely upright. The difference in compound isn't drastic enough to make leaning it in more beneficial. A bigger contact patch will mean better traction, even if the rubber compound on the edges is softer.
@@lpls It has to do with the design and shape of the tires. "At extreme lean angles, the patch becomes smaller and crescent shaped as the very edge of the tread is used." How much the contact patch is reduced depends on the tire profile, but regardless you will see reduced contact on almost all motorcycle tires. This is why I lean more than the bike when it rains.
Thankyou so much for teaching me how to ride motorcycle. I lean in when I feel comfortable and I counter lean when I am unsure. the counter lean is the go to. trail braking and braking slightly in the corners works for me.
Moto C: Thanks for sanity in explaining this.. Road bikes on the street: For me: Whatever keeps my upper body in Neutral Balance. At normal speed, in plane with the bike, or at low speed tight or swerving turns perpendicular to gravity for visibility. No drama, Simple..
When I was getting my license I would have appreciated this video. To pass a license I had to pass a handling test which had a tight radius turns in it. I struggled to do them and my driving teacher gave me no pointers how to do it. I was just supposed to figure it out myself. I did practice it a lot and I did pass the test. I just think this would have helped me a great deal. Same goes for counter steering. I learned that years later from a youtube video.
One of the best and most complete videos about ridding techniques I have ever seen. You called I points I could think of, including the alerts about street riding (real world dangers). Thanks a lot!
Thanks for the great video! I am pretty much neutral on commuting and slower touring. If I up the pace a bit, mostly when touring, then I lean my upper body and my head slightly forward into the turn. I use counterbalancing only on U-turns or other slower maneuvers like lane splitting in traffic.
So... Everyone is right and wrong... Imagine that! And then there's also personal preference to cloud the waters. Thank you for your analysis Andrey. Cheers from the Netherlands!
I use a mix of leaning and counter-leaning when I ride. It helps that my first bike is a dual sport, which lends itself to learning and implementing both cornering methods when riding. Highly recommend as the best style of beginner bike ❤️👍💪
This video should be a required part of getting a bike license. It took me from 55yrs of riding and trying to copy who was the fastest to learn the hard way. A more upright position gives you the most control and allows room for error - ride a dirt bike or just watch the video
Last year, after almost 20 years of riding, without ever hanging of, I bought my first sportsbike ever. And I found another benefit of leaning: It just feels safer, when you are going fast and at the same time makes you feel much more at one with your motorcycle. And it is so much fun, why did I not try it earlier?
To perforce it even better, different styles used by different eras fine-tuned to today's version for the best of both rider and ride efficiency. I think irrespective of one's body position, the key is to ride with more energy, less fatigue and less pain in the joints at the end of day. Brilliant one Andrei..
Glad you explained where & why each method works. A good rider should be able to do both--visibility & nimbleness critical for city/traffic, but open road turns, leaning may be better--pending your bike & tires! 😅 And skill!
really great content mate, intelligent and well balanced, love the history perspective - interesting. I'm only 5 mins into your video and realise that your joining the ranks of my favorite motorcycle you tubers - I've been riding 36 years still doing courses / track days and learning and enjoying the craft more and more with the years 🙂. i watched your cornering video too - brilliant.
Good vid. Long story short: Both leaning and counter-leaning are for relatively 'extreme' situational riding. Leaning for racing. Counter-leaning for moto-gymkhana. Road riders should ride at speeds where they can get around in the neutral position so they can more easily and safely react to surprises.
If you are hanging off the motorcycle on a public road, you are going too fast or just showing off. Counter-balancing has uses in slow manoeuvres, especially with heavier motorcycles, and emergency manoeuvres. Otherwise, at sane speeds, you really don't need anything special - just keep a neutral body position.
Depends on the ergonomics of the bike... If you drive a naked bike maybe... But I ride an R bike... The ergonomics of it don't allow for much counter balance.... Hanging on the other hand, is natural.... Also by hanging you keep the bike more upright so suspension works better.... Also a factor is type of corner... Slow corners call for counter balance... While sweeping long turns... Call for leaning...
I hang off to stay more upright with my bike, because it makes riding more active/engaging, and so I can hopefully have abs someday. There's no one static position to sit in that's optimal for all situations. Hanging off a blind curve at 53 in a 45 gives you the ability to brake in a straight line when you see it, let off, reshape the turn, and ride straight over the gravel. I'm certain I look like a poser, especially when I'm commuting in my riding jeans or worse, my overpants, but I'm not doing it because I'm trying to break the sound barrier.
Kevin Cameron did a really good article on big bang 500 two strokes to help stop high sides as the new radial tires would immediately let go when the limit was reached. This video did a great job of explaining leaning. Counterbalancing helps hide chicken strips too.. 😊
I got the same conclusion from Ryan's video as this one. "Use what is relevant for the type of riding you're doing." Ryan started out with the shocking "leaning isn't right," because that's what he does. He takes the popular position, and says it's not the end-all. He talks about counter-balancing being likely more useful for the average person's riding and why you should learn it. But also talks about leaning for racing and fast cornering. He never claims to only counter-balance.
A huge point that hasn't been discussed enough is being able to recover from a loss of traction. You can only really do this when counter leaning. So road surface, and the unpredictability of road surface when riding unfamiliar roads, dictate counter leaning in most conditions. I only lean in on fast sweeping curves where I can see far enough that the pavement is clear. Note that my riding is urban plus a decade of adventure riding on several continents.
Bikes want to stand themselves up when moving, and due to centrifugal force going into fast corners, leaning off the bike helps pull the bike into that corner and carry more speed. Your body weight pulling the bike into the corner also helps the bike to drift the rear wheel during acceleration on exit if needed, counter-leaning on a race bike just isn't possible due to these forces acting to stand the bike up and leaning off the bike is trying to control that.
I learned the "lean-in" technique when I was young, along with rear brake only. I don't and I don't think anyone hangs outside like you demonstrated. I go low, body on the side of the curve and slide my butt half off of the seat. the bike goes from bucking to smooth.
1A! And a further reason to make counterbalancing is the small silhouette you have. I often experienced it when I drove in Italy or France in the countryside on very small roads. Sometimes you came around a corner or a curve and than there is a Fiat Ducato coming, driven from a local driver in the middle of the road. Counterbalanced you swing through the little gap on his left side, but without fear because you are so slim,
One of the best, more neutral discussions on this subject that divides people. I guess it depends on the type of bike and road. I have a Ducati 916, I feel totally safe following her in the turns. She goes down, I go down, we are happy. I have a 1985 Moto Guzzi, I COULD do the same, but I would feel less safe, turning is easier and smoother by counter steering. I have a BMW GS, I can do both, leaning or counter steering. Actually what I do most is what is called here mirror kissing: I move my shoulders towards the indie of a turn, to the amount depending no how sharp the turn is and my speed. If the pavement is not very nice and tricky, counter steering is safer. This is my experience, I have been riding for 50 years....
Very nice video!! My mentors who trained in Japan emphasizes to do lean with first before doing lean in and out as an intermediate rider because once you got the correct body position for leaning with the bike its easier to adjust inwards or outwards depending on the situation as you so clearly describe in you video. Very nicely explained!
Just doing basic training i noticed lean or counter lean depended on the situation and speed more than anything, slalom / figure 8's had a more upright position and going round a long bend at road speeds naturally led to more lean...
For fast cornering, leaning in is the way to go. The more you lean, the less the bike has to, keeping the contact patch nearer the centre of the tyre. It also keeps the centre of gravity low, keeping the mass of the bike along the line of COG, leading to the contact patch. Plus. If it goes oily side up, you are only inches from the ground, making jettisoning the bike a lot easier. For slow speed maneuvering, staying as vertical as possible wins, allowing faster changes of direction. All in my opinion of course
Only concern i have on aggressive counter leaning is its fine to show people on dry days in car parks but realty on the street is very different. Wet, slippy, stock tires , dusty roads, road markings , uneven Road surface, all reduce traction and tilting the bike over edge of tyres can lead to some squirming of tires or total slippage.
I use both: I counterlean on dry normal roads because I prefer the response, but put my body into the turn on wet roads or motorways because I don’t want my bike slipping out from underneath me
Great video, it confused me seeing people obsessed with getting knee down on the streets, while isle of man TT riders never seemed to get close. Subscribed
Good stuff to know. I noticed that I instinctively lean to keep my center of gravity above the wheels. It's often wet and slick around here, it makes me feel like I'm less likely to slide. I'm not going very fast though. I imagine at a certain speed, it's more important to keep your weight in plane with the bike.
I always remember Lorenzo and Stoner riding styles on Moto GP, they were completely different and still would do basically the same times. What that means? Just ride the way you feel more comfortable.
Offroad, counter leaning provides more grip and balance. It is the only safe way to do it. On bigger bikes, ones that would scrape or touch the ground, sometimes leaning with the bike can keep the bike more upright, allowing for tighter/faster turns where counter leaning would bottom out the pegs (similar to older bikes). Counter is safer in the wet, like when riding road. Prevents low siding.
I'd rather be using less lean angle for a given speed and corner by hanging off any day of the week. Counter leaning is fine for traffic and slow manoeuvring. Out on the country roads it's not the right technique and limits grip/causes you to use edge grip sooner.
Everything in this video is clear, concise and accurate. Generally high speed corners with wider radius means inside lean and sharp corners and slow speed maneuvers favor counter lean. Another way I like to measure it is by G force. Higher the G force, more inside lean you should have and the lower the G force, the less inside lean you should have and at slow speed where you pull no Gs, you should counter lean. For example a 90 degree slow speed turn is a counter lean but if you were to take the same turn and much greater speed, you should lean inside instead and the G force will counteract the gravity, forcing your body to be upright. Now let's talk about how it affects tire. This is an explanation I haven't seen anyone mention is how the physics affect tire during counter leaning vs inside leaning. At high speed, high G force corners, leaning inside will force more of the lateral force towards the middle of the tire's contact patch maximizing it's traction as opposed to the edge of the tire which is what leaning outside or sitting straight will do which compromises traction. You may ask, how does leaning in put more of the tire's middle section of the contact patch with the ground despite you being closer to the edge of the tire? Because the G force fights the gravity and transfer the force more towards the middle.
One the street leaning in is important for rain and situations when you need more turn but want to limit lean for traction. Neutral is good when you don’t need make quick changes. Counterbalance is great for slow turns and slow tight turns.
There´s no ultimate right or wrong. It all depends on the bike you´re riding and where you´re riding it. You can´t ride a cruiser like a track bike and vice versa. Is it an ADV or sportbike, naked or touring, even the manufacturer is a key to the right answer. Just like the riding style. The first question to find an answer to body position should allways be: what bike are you riding. Every answer without taking this (and more) into consideration is just BS. Dragging knees or elbows is strictly for track use only. Imagine dragging your knee through a pothole in a bend of a public street. It will rip your leg out of your hips, most likely anding your riding career forever. Best advice for everyday riding: don´t go seeking for the boudaries of your OR your bikes capabilities. Allways leave a margin for errors. Your life will depend on it. Other than that, it was a very infomative clip. Thanks for that.
I can think of one BIG advantage of leaning over (hanging off?) in high speeds that I haven't seen mentioned. If you fall off due to a low slide (very common in racing and high speed cornering) you have less distance to fall and less impact. Therefore less injury potential.
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"King of the Road" 2-month online course: moto-control.shop/subscription/
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*I thought this was a Ryan F9 video and thought he was doing to worst Italian accent ever.* That's so KGB of you, tovarishch.
@@hulkhatepunybanner Hey Hulk, Why do you hate puny banners? What did they ever do to you?
"As free love was going out of fashion and demand for good quality rubber was increasing..." -- taking a leaf out of Fortnine's playbook 😂
Checkmate!
That's where he hooked us. Always in every video puts in a constructive joke or intentionally use awkward words. That's his greatness.
@flippy5118It means pull out of every girl, raw doggin', no rubber needed.....if you are lucky.
@flippy5118before AIDS
@flippy5118it’s one of those “if you know, you know” kind of jokes.
Been riding for 60 years. Raced speedway and roadracing. Military dispatch rider. Uses different styles. Think it's important to change riding style depending on situation.
you're right
THIS. Low traction like dirt, Counter Lean. City streets where I'll never use all lean angle anyways, Counter Lean or stay neutral. But go fast eat ass? then yeah lean lean.
Normal, speed limit level street riding, lean with the bike. Super high speed cornering, lean more than the bike to keep from scraping hard parts an lifting a tire. Slow speed maneuvering, tight cornering, slaloms, or low traction situations, counter lean to have faster change in direction, tighten up your corners or keep weight over the tires so they dont wash out in gravel. Its a matter of how, what, an where you are riding.
Yes, this. I'm not sure why this is a controversy.
Bravo dude!!!...excellent explaination..
Exactly that. Long sweeping corners which are good visible i ride with a nice hang off. Tight twisties n such with counterlean for better reaction time of road hazards appear
This is sort of like when you are facing a wall dont use full throttle but apply brakes, and when you do not see the wall just go.
💯💯💯
I think that F9 made their point quite understandable: Counterbalancing just as hanging-off are perfectly fine given the appropriate situations.
Long and fast corners benefit from hanging into the corner, giving you better shift of mass into the inner side while allowing the bike to stay low without exceeding max. lean angle.
Counterbalcing is generally better for fast paced shift of lateral momentum, in tight corners that force you to slow down considerably, plus in any situation where you need an elevated leveled viewpoint.
Just as a MotoGP rider would certainly have issues in city traffic with „hanging-off-only“, a police motorcyclist performing „counterbalancing-only“ wouldn’t get the best experience and performance out of a twisty hill pass. Both techniques are valid with respect to their intended purpose - and you should try to master BOTH as good as possible.
In contrast: Greg Widmar (MotoJitsu) has simply turned into a pretentious, thin-skinned, preachy media personality, explaining only little of his rationale and simply marking his point by, well, marking a point. Additionally, his expensive Amazon-printed exercise ‚books‘ are mere 30 page abstracts of general concepts you can get everywhere on the internet for free. I have grown quite disillusioned by the guy as time went on. Only little insight to be gained from his videos recently.
Yeah his narcissistic attitude is awful
I think you’re overweighting the form and personality over MJ (Greg) message. Sometimes he’s somewhat too blunt and direct on some controversial topics but I think his message can’t be more clear!
I’m learning a lot from him and care more about the message and can’t care less about style.
About the books, it’s just a way to have some income for him and they’re useful. That argument that you can find anything on the internet is true, but for almost everything, but that’s doesn’t make any less useful. And, anyway, he’s everything on his videos for free!
I bought his app to have his exercises that I find useful to practice AND a way to say thank you for his effort to pass on his knowledge to others (yes, I know, he makes money from TH-cam views, but this “thank you “ is more personalized).
I follow him and some others who I find to be useful and seem to have plenty of knowledge, being one of them Moto Control - Andrey. He has a completely different style, and each of them have different styles! Sometimes the style helps, sometimes not! F9 is a great content creator, i consider that he has substantial knowledge, but sometimes his style gets much in my way, maybe because English is not my natural language or something and because of that style i reach the end of some video and find myself confused “what a hell was the message/ conclusion about”? Solution: try to view again the video, see the transcription, research elsewhere the subject to gain more traction about it to be able to understand better.
So, my point is, if I find that some person has knowledge that can benefit me I try to concentrate more on the message and less or nothing what is around it.
This channel has the message and a very accommodating, friendly and even funny style. Very good.
@@carlostomas3698 TLDR… you surely invested a lot of time into defending a man who after all is a complete stranger to both of us.
I criticized his character, yes. That’s what besides knowledge makes a good tutor. He might have been a great (yet narrow-minded) drill instructor in the USMC, fair enough, but that attitude doesn’t traverse well into civilian life.
@@TheUnsungVil No, not at all! It was just to make a point. I think he doesn’t need anyone to defend him, just that I really appreciate his teaching in my recent initiation on motorcycles.
The long text is just my style ☺️ and a problem. I suspect that my brain is incapable of transmitting a message in a short form…I don’t know, but I’m already old to become better at this, I guess 😂
Something I missed and to maintain my style: I find interesting that you didn’t read my post but, however, you felt the need to “reply”. What’s wrong with us? Trying to defend someone I do t know, you replying to someone you also don’t know and reply to something you didn’t read.
Yeah, the world is really crazy, indeed!
@@TheUnsungVil And you invested an equal amount of time in slandering him. I recommend that you avoid being a condescending cretin in comments.
As a matter of fact MJ recommends counter leaning in slow turns and criticizes riders for focusing too much on body position and leaning. One might disagree with his presentation style but he is ten times the rider F9 is. He makes virtually no mistakes on twisty roads on all kinds of motorcycles.
As a new rider this video is brilliant - thank you. Confirms what I was starting to suspect - that there’s a spectrum from extreme counter-leaning to extreme hanging off the bike through a turn and most road riding is probably best done in a relatively neutral position with counter-balancing and leaning into turns being tools available to use appropriately depending on the bike, speed, road conditions etc and NOT techniques to be used indiscriminately just because a bunch of other people told you to do them because they’re always best or look cool 👍
I've watched a lot of this guy's content. I'm yet to fault anything that he says. There is plenty of other content out there that you are probably best off avoiding.
And welcome to the world of riding! Start slowly (literally) and work your way up. A neutral position and getting used to leaning the bike is a very good starting point. That said, don't be afraid to swivel the bike under your hips at low speed. As for hanging off? I'm not there and I'm not going! Enjoy!
Counter leaning is really handy when riding around town at lower speeds - it's much quicker to lean the bike over while counter leaning in order to make a quick turn - up to about 40 mph. But, I don't counter lean when the road is wet and slick, instead I stay neutral.
I really only lean to the inside for fun, or when doing canyon rides when the pace picks up. Even then, I never go fast enough to lean over so much at high speeds that the pegs scrape - AFAIK, peg scrapping is only for the track.
I go with what he calls "Mirror kissing" (10:25 min) where you just move your top half over so your head is in line with the inside mirror. Works good on the road (plus you don't look like a tool trying to get your knee down on the road).
I also use more the movement of the upper body, specially if the road is wet and it’s more pronounced if it’s cold and just started doing my ride.
Normally I use just neutral body position as it’s more than enough for my usual pace. In slow speed stuff I may counter-lean, depending.
Good luck!
Practice.
A lot.
Not in traffic.
Keep the dirty side down.
What is the world coming to when we discover TH-camrs might exaggerate a point, take an extreme view, or even deliberately disagree with each other - and for what? Oh that's right... money. I'm shocked. Like all information, whether you pay for it or get it free off the internet, you have to use your own brain and assess it for your own situation.
That's why I like this video - explanation and reasoning is presented, and then you are left to make your own judgement on how it might apply to your riding. That's why I keep coming back to this channel, though I do enjoy a laugh with fortnine too occasionally.
The homage to Tasting History was appreciated.
Gotta agree with F9, couter-lean is probably best on the street most of the time because it offers the easiest path to change direction in the event of unexpected obstacles or road conditions such as sand, gravel, bad drivers, or deer. Neutral body position can be better when you can see all the way through the turn with no cars or animals present. Hanging off the low-side of the bike has no place on the street - you're too committed to a single course and have very limited ability to react to changing circumstances.
Agree, IMHO in long turns at higher speed, netural is preferably, in all other situations, I prefere counter leaning, hanging off is only to "look good" and make the turn 0,02 sec. faster and I don`t care about either, I like to make the turn as safe as possible.
Middle position best for street riding= lean less=less risk. counter balancing = avoid shit on the road. hang off= race track or parking lot.
@@Uriel-Septim. Hanging off is something that has no place on street tires, unpredictable road surfaces, and no pucks. Street tires do not have the lean angle of track tires anyway. Hanging off in an unknown turn is a good way to get a leg or arm torn off if any surprise objects are encountered.
@@Davesworld7 I think that you can just move a cheek off to the inside so that you don't drag hard parts on the ground, hanging off to me does not mean that you have to have a knee on the ground. You are doing it to keep more rubber on the road and have more ground clearance. Lots of the 70s bikes benefited from this because some of them would drag hard parts on aggressive cornering. Hanging off (just hanging a cheek off-and putting a knee into the tank nothing radical) really helps on my 1946 Indian Chief with hand shift. If you don't it will start dragging parts.
@@Davesworld7explain how hanging off and reducing your lean angle is somehow more dangerous rather than beneficial on street tires with less grip. Hanging off doesn't mean dragging a knee or being at absurd angles. If you are hanging off you should still have enough control to avoid obstacles. I feel like you have a lot of funny ideas about hanging off because you dont actually do it.
I generally lean my body in and keep the bike more upright when roads are wet. Stay pretty much neutral when it's dry. He didn't mention wet pavement.
He didn’t need to,
he talks about lean angle, and he clearly shows on the picture how little you gain by hanging off, it’s almost nothing, it won’t affect you that much on the street.
This is a good point, especially with cross terrain or off road tires on slippery surfaces. It is frightening how quickly you can lose traction on rear tire using trail type tires on wet roads. We ride off road in winter here in Canada, ice or hard packed glazed snow will put you on the ground very quickly with too much bike lean. But if you can make it to the medium packed snow, its just spectacular riding ;)
Stay gold.
I do the opposite. It's not lean that makes you lose traction, it's too much sideways force on the rubber contact patch (also known as going too fast). Look at people who ride off pavement where they expect to lose traction. They all counterlean.
@@mcamir1 I agree, leaning in when traction is already questionable will only exacerbate the situation
I’ve tried ripping down the canyons both ways, on a variety of bikes. I concluded…ride how you want. We are not riding to shave off fractions of seconds, but to arrive alive.
Well no. One of these techniques is great for shaving off fractions of seconds, the other is great for stability and visibility. If you want to arrive alive, counterbalance.
one thing I constantly do whenever I am on a fairly calm road is to try and dodge the pot-holes and or sewer covers... less upset of the wheels plus I am also training my counter-balancing and for anyone who happens to be watching, having them ponder my sanity. It's actually fun and because of it, I think I am slightly more comfortable with it.
I dodge potholes for no reason EVERY day, lol!
Nice mini game
As with many things in life…it depends. As an owner of several bikes I find the cornering style is largely dependent on which bike I’m riding. In general my Honda Magna cruiser works best when the bike is ridden with a good serving of counter balancing pushing the bike down, my Goldwing in neutral position regardless of load except for really low speed riding, and my lightweight sports machines with neutral to leaning into the turn. Forward or aft positioning is also bike dependent.
It’s a great topic for exploration and your vid is fantastic.
One of the best motorcycle riding advice in youtube
If you ride on the road, commuting, touring, and day rides, it is surprising how little of your time is spent going round corners at any significant speed. There is almost always a speed limit, or a vehicle ahead of you, or a poor line of sight, or the risk of debris or potholes, or a vehicle coming the other way, etc. Copying track techniques when you're probably doing 30 to 50 mph on a country lane is just pointless. However, the basic thing to remember is, the bike doesn't lean because of the corner; the bike corners because it is leaning. At any given speed, it will turn tighter and more easily if it is leaning more. On public roads, and at junctions, mini roundabouts and so on, counterbalancing is the way to go. For general flowing along at real world speeds on the open road, a fairly neutral position. The bike is usually better than the rider.
You are the MASTER of Moto Lesson Videos. I have learned so much from you and you’re making a huge difference in my experience. Keep up the GREAT work and easy to learn content.
What a time to be alive, from primitive suspension to active electronic suspension systems. To imagine that Isle of Man was even more dangerous way back then 🤯
Great info Andrey! 🤙
Rofl the thought of the Isla Of Mann being even MORE DANGEROUS than it is these days….its amazing how it’s still going still! And I love it
I was in middle school when I learned to ride a bike in the late 90's. I never knew such techniques existed till very recently. Watching these videos I realize that I use counterbalancing a lot in city traffic, bending the bike between knees while staying upright and leaning the bike in very long corners and twisties knowing I don't have to break in the middle. I think if you ride enough you will figure out the right technique that works for you. We don't have to be robots and learn the same techniques, we should rely on our brains and instincts and maybe we will come up with new ingenious ways to approach these.
You've been red pilled...
same here bro.
Got my first VFR400 when I was a freshman in 99 and never had to learn.
Keep riding and your body does everything.
It was interesting to find out the handlebars turn opposite when turning high speed corners.
PPL who never rode bikes would never understand lol
@@BOT-xt8puhows that for luck. I'm actually thinking about getting same bike as it's the best power to weight in Australia for a LAMS bike (3years of Lams before the big bikes)
You really are the greatest teacher, A! I'm proud to have been with ya since you were around 10K subscribers and, whenever I hear conflicting info, always come back to you for my educational "center." I'm a daily rider/commuter and own a '21 H-D and '23 H-D, have been licensed for 3yrs, took the full YCRS a year ago, and, when I first started, had 1:1 with a moto-officer whom I credit with giving me the ultimate foundation. But of ALL the TH-camrs, sole credit goes to you for teaching me U-Turns. Everyone else preaches the same (head turn, friction zone, and rear brake), but you did a video a couple of years ago on a H-D and discussed how the initial move is really just a counter-steer and you need to get the bike to full-lock to make the tightest U-Turns. That was my "lightbulb moment" where everything fell into place.
This video is demonstrative of your innate ability as a teacher, because you're not negating either technique; instead, you're advocating for the benefits of both, while simultaneously advising when they SHOULDN'T be used, and in the end advising a safe, sound strategy for road-riding. Thank you for all the knowledge you share!
Leaning out is also useful on loose or wet surface. If you are leaning in and you loose traction, you are done. You just flip, face into the road. If you are leaning out, you can actually keep some control, pull the bike up and save it (sometimes). Although it depends on bike type and weight. If the bike is much more heavier than you, you are not pulling the bike up, you are pulling yourself down.
To me it was always a question of how far over you can lean the bike without hitting the pegs or exhaust. Counter leaning for example does not work very well on a cruiser as you cannot lean the bike over very far without hitting pegs or footboards, so it actually makes some sense to try to lean over the bike and keep the bike more vertical.
Counter leaning does have one huge advantage on the road. You can see better and further along a corner because your head is higher and not as shifted over towards the apex.
But your head is shifted into the direction you need to see. If you're tucked inside on the left, you're taking a left turn.
Wait, are you suggesting this answer is not as simple as black or white? That perhaps somehow the truth lies somewhere in the middle? The grey even? That in some instances one side is right and in others, the other side is right? Are you suggesting compromise??? Whoa, revolutionary!!! I wonder what else we could apply this incredible philosophy of taking the best parts from each side and meeting in the middle to. 🤔 imagine the possibilities….
Completely depends on the speed and the road/track!🤘🏼
A fine presentation that overcomes the rigid thinking of either/or dogmatists. Rather, use the technique appropriate for the task at hand. Once again, every rider has to ride his own ride, not blindly follow TH-cam gurus.
Best motorcycle channel right now👏👏👏
As an old rider, thank you for your video(s). Indeed you need to actually know all the techniques and use them appropriately, depending on bike, situation etc.
Also love that you keep your native language colour while speaking very correct English.
body position, hanging of, neutral or counter.. only depends on the bike you ride and how fast you ride it.. as someone who started on a moped, rode hard enduro with a CR250.. being holingan on MT09 to carving mountain twisties with CBR1000rr.. body position changes with your bike type, your speed and surface you ride on(AND weather)... my advice is to take as many riding schools as you can afford and practice practice practice.. not to only get better and faster but SAFER rider
Fantastic! I really appreciate your “balanced” approach to explaining how these different techniques all have their place when riding - an excellent clip 10/10!
Excellent video! Audio 10/10. Videography 9/10. Script/messaging 10/10. Entertainment value 10/10. You have come a long way in the last 24 months and are continuing to improve. So glad that you have kept with it! Putting on my engineer’s hat, body position is all about available tire grip versus CG elevation (z-axis strategy). This is made abundantly clear at a moto-cross where lateral tire grip is very low; the riders’ CG is almost always directly over the bikes longitudinal CG plane (except when aerial where the tire grip is zero and all forces are inertial and ballistic).
Ryan F9 is a legend; MotoJijitsu is awesome; but this guy is a Master. His control on any bike is world class.
Hello from Rhode Island! I had little experience riding when 20 years ago I used too much rear break while trying to stop. No helmet, severe concussion, and I had a verbal stutter for about a year. I love your channel because it is definitely helping people stay safe.
I have much appreciation for your time and effort. Thank you.
The subject is well taken apart. Super material. It's like debating which party is better.... Christmas or Easter? Depending on the situation, motorcycle, speed, etc. Add Moto Gymkhana and staying in line with the motorcycle and without putting your knees out.
Conclusion neutral is more than enough for everyday riding :)
Production quality of your videos is very good!
Sometimes (if not always) safety is more important than efficiency (faster driving).
When driving in a city vision of the road and mirrors, the ability to change directions easily and the protection of your body are very important subjects.
Therefore the lean is quite more risky when some car or pedestrian or pet comes in your way, especially in a corner.
A more neutral approach is the best bet and can be changed depending the situation.
Police officers prioritize safety not the fastest technique. Every person has it's priorities.
One of the best approaches I ever seen about this subject and with an history context.
Great! Really great!
Just one problem: I’m always very jealous about the spaces you can get to practice.
Move to Argentina and ride with him.
@@usernamemykel Really?! You’re truly a smart guy! Never thought about that. Genius…
...and you won't have to learn a new language, Carlos
@@usernamemykel I don’t speak Spanish!
Never said that you did. @@carlostomas3698
You are sensible and balanced as always, Andrei - bravo. I've already sent in a protest against F9 - how the fuck can leaning in be altogether wrong for road riding, or at least head inwards for us grassroots? I appreciate - and use both techniques - there are two alternatives for different situations; speed is generally the difference, as Andrei points out. But this is sooo typical F9, and he seems always to be able to leave the scene w/o critisism.
Thanks for making this video. After having completed advanced courses years ago that taught minimizing lean by leaning off, I had a system that worked. I subsequently took quite a large break from riding and, upon my return, saw Fortnine's video. The result was going with some good riders who highlighted that I'd built a bad habit with counter leaning at speed. I've since completed more advanced courses and now use counter leaning when I'm going slow or off-road, and I lean in at higher speeds at the track to avoid scraping parts of the bike in corners.
My point being that Fortnine made it sound like it was perfectly fine to do at speed and it resulted in me getting a habit that made me more dangerous a rider.
I went around a curve a little too hot on my 2007 V-Star 1300 (with a passenger no less) and I got the opportunity to learn the easy way lean limits of a cruiser.
I scraped my floorboard. Now I'm gun-shy and I'm trying to learn techniques of better cornering with less lean angle.
NOT BEING DRAMATIC, I've seen plenty of videos of people crashing because they scraped hard parts and the metal became a fulcrum lifting the tire off the pavement.
At slow speed I can really see the benefits of counterbalancing, BUT at higher speeds you better lean in to avoid scraping especially on bikes with lower ground clearances.
Thank you so much for your excellent video! Please do not stop doing what you are doing. You have excellent tutorials and always inject great, light-hearted humour into it, making it more engaging. You are a fantastic rider!
Motorcycling advice is usually dispensed on the basis of techniques built on experience. Your videos bring some fresh air with a rarely seen understanding of the physics of the bike.
I always lean in when traction is a concern, I just don't go full knee-down because it's not necessary. Both methods can provide benefits depending on the situation! Love doing both because they're both very much a blast to do :)
I usually counter lean cause drz lol
Interestingly enough, modern tires are harder in the middle and softer toward the edges. So by leaning you're moving towards a harder, more tractionless part of the tire.
@@lpls Yes but you also have MORE tire making contact with the ground when your motorcycle is completely upright. The difference in compound isn't drastic enough to make leaning it in more beneficial. A bigger contact patch will mean better traction, even if the rubber compound on the edges is softer.
@@tudm91 that's an interesting point. Why do you? I can't see why the contact patch would be greater when upright.
@@lpls It has to do with the design and shape of the tires. "At extreme lean angles, the patch becomes smaller and crescent shaped as the very edge of the tread is used."
How much the contact patch is reduced depends on the tire profile, but regardless you will see reduced contact on almost all motorcycle tires. This is why I lean more than the bike when it rains.
As with most things, the answer is "it depends". This video is very well done, thanks!
Thankyou so much for teaching me how to ride motorcycle. I lean in when I feel comfortable and I counter lean when I am unsure. the counter lean is the go to. trail braking and braking slightly in the corners works for me.
Awesome channel keep rockin bro 🔥🔥
Moto C: Thanks for sanity in explaining this.. Road bikes on the street:
For me: Whatever keeps my upper body in Neutral Balance. At normal speed, in plane with the bike, or at low speed tight or swerving turns perpendicular to gravity for visibility. No drama, Simple..
I just watched this video. Wish I had seen it 55yrs ago. I learned the hard way
Everly is a well-balanced view, showing the importance of both styles of riding counter balance and getting a knee down.
When I was getting my license I would have appreciated this video. To pass a license I had to pass a handling test which had a tight radius turns in it. I struggled to do them and my driving teacher gave me no pointers how to do it. I was just supposed to figure it out myself. I did practice it a lot and I did pass the test. I just think this would have helped me a great deal. Same goes for counter steering. I learned that years later from a youtube video.
One of the best and most complete videos about ridding techniques I have ever seen. You called I points I could think of, including the alerts about street riding (real world dangers). Thanks a lot!
Thanks for the great video!
I am pretty much neutral on commuting and slower touring. If I up the pace a bit, mostly when touring, then I lean my upper body and my head slightly forward into the turn.
I use counterbalancing only on U-turns or other slower maneuvers like lane splitting in traffic.
I really love your ironic sense of humor, Andrey. 😂
All the best from Brazil. ✌
So... Everyone is right and wrong... Imagine that! And then there's also personal preference to cloud the waters.
Thank you for your analysis Andrey.
Cheers from the Netherlands!
I use a mix of leaning and counter-leaning when I ride. It helps that my first bike is a dual sport, which lends itself to learning and implementing both cornering methods when riding. Highly recommend as the best style of beginner bike ❤️👍💪
That is the best analysis of the various steering techniques I have ever seen, awesome…. I have learned something today…
This video should be a required part of getting a bike license. It took me from 55yrs of riding and trying to copy who was the fastest to learn the hard way. A more upright position gives you the most control and allows room for error - ride a dirt bike or just watch the video
Last year, after almost 20 years of riding, without ever hanging of, I bought my first sportsbike ever. And I found another benefit of leaning: It just feels safer, when you are going fast and at the same time makes you feel much more at one with your motorcycle. And it is so much fun, why did I not try it earlier?
To perforce it even better, different styles used by different eras fine-tuned to today's version for the best of both rider and ride efficiency. I think irrespective of one's body position, the key is to ride with more energy, less fatigue and less pain in the joints at the end of day. Brilliant one Andrei..
Glad you explained where & why each method works. A good rider should be able to do both--visibility & nimbleness critical for city/traffic, but open road turns, leaning may be better--pending your bike & tires! 😅 And skill!
really great content mate, intelligent and well balanced, love the history perspective - interesting. I'm only 5 mins into your video and realise that your joining the ranks of my favorite motorcycle you tubers - I've been riding 36 years still doing courses / track days and learning and enjoying the craft more and more with the years 🙂. i watched your cornering video too - brilliant.
Good vid.
Long story short: Both leaning and counter-leaning are for relatively 'extreme' situational riding.
Leaning for racing. Counter-leaning for moto-gymkhana.
Road riders should ride at speeds where they can get around in the neutral position so they can more easily and safely react to surprises.
If you are hanging off the motorcycle on a public road, you are going too fast or just showing off. Counter-balancing has uses in slow manoeuvres, especially with heavier motorcycles, and emergency manoeuvres. Otherwise, at sane speeds, you really don't need anything special - just keep a neutral body position.
Depends on the ergonomics of the bike... If you drive a naked bike maybe... But I ride an R bike... The ergonomics of it don't allow for much counter balance.... Hanging on the other hand, is natural.... Also by hanging you keep the bike more upright so suspension works better.... Also a factor is type of corner... Slow corners call for counter balance... While sweeping long turns... Call for leaning...
I hang off to stay more upright with my bike, because it makes riding more active/engaging, and so I can hopefully have abs someday. There's no one static position to sit in that's optimal for all situations. Hanging off a blind curve at 53 in a 45 gives you the ability to brake in a straight line when you see it, let off, reshape the turn, and ride straight over the gravel. I'm certain I look like a poser, especially when I'm commuting in my riding jeans or worse, my overpants, but I'm not doing it because I'm trying to break the sound barrier.
@@campbecdI suspect that the increased amplitude also plays a huge part in feeling of control.
What works for me is:
faster speeds(+60km/h): in
lower speeds(-40km/h): out
u give the most practical advice. thank you.
I alternate all the techniques I know to get and stay comfortable and flexible with them and have fun.
Kevin Cameron did a really good article on big bang 500 two strokes to help stop high sides as the new radial tires would immediately let go when the limit was reached. This video did a great job of explaining leaning. Counterbalancing helps hide chicken strips too.. 😊
I got the same conclusion from Ryan's video as this one. "Use what is relevant for the type of riding you're doing." Ryan started out with the shocking "leaning isn't right," because that's what he does. He takes the popular position, and says it's not the end-all. He talks about counter-balancing being likely more useful for the average person's riding and why you should learn it. But also talks about leaning for racing and fast cornering. He never claims to only counter-balance.
This was a very informative watch. I've had similar ideas about this stuff but the way you presented the information was good confirmation. Thanks!
Very good video my friend! Finally someone who makes sense.
A huge point that hasn't been discussed enough is being able to recover from a loss of traction. You can only really do this when counter leaning. So road surface, and the unpredictability of road surface when riding unfamiliar roads, dictate counter leaning in most conditions. I only lean in on fast sweeping curves where I can see far enough that the pavement is clear. Note that my riding is urban plus a decade of adventure riding on several continents.
Bikes want to stand themselves up when moving, and due to centrifugal force going into fast corners, leaning off the bike helps pull the bike into that corner and carry more speed. Your body weight pulling the bike into the corner also helps the bike to drift the rear wheel during acceleration on exit if needed, counter-leaning on a race bike just isn't possible due to these forces acting to stand the bike up and leaning off the bike is trying to control that.
00:32 this collision shocked the heck out of me!
Finally a full explanation
I learned the "lean-in" technique when I was young, along with rear brake only. I don't and I don't think anyone hangs outside like you demonstrated. I go low, body on the side of the curve and slide my butt half off of the seat. the bike goes from bucking to smooth.
Awesome coverage of proper leaning in different situations. Thank you.
Great explanation, I watched fortnine, and a few responses, this is very clear and sensible explanation . 😊
1A! And a further reason to make counterbalancing is the small silhouette you have. I often experienced it when I drove in Italy or France in the countryside on very small roads. Sometimes you came around a corner or a curve and than there is a Fiat Ducato coming, driven from a local driver in the middle of the road. Counterbalanced you swing through the little gap on his left side, but without fear because you are so slim,
One of the best, more neutral discussions on this subject that divides people. I guess it depends on the type of bike and road. I have a Ducati 916, I feel totally safe following her in the turns. She goes down, I go down, we are happy. I have a 1985 Moto Guzzi, I COULD do the same, but I would feel less safe, turning is easier and smoother by counter steering. I have a BMW GS, I can do both, leaning or counter steering. Actually what I do most is what is called here mirror kissing: I move my shoulders towards the indie of a turn, to the amount depending no how sharp the turn is and my speed. If the pavement is not very nice and tricky, counter steering is safer. This is my experience, I have been riding for 50 years....
Very nice video!! My mentors who trained in Japan emphasizes to do lean with first before doing lean in and out as an intermediate rider because once you got the correct body position for leaning with the bike its easier to adjust inwards or outwards depending on the situation as you so clearly describe in you video. Very nicely explained!
Just doing basic training i noticed lean or counter lean depended on the situation and speed more than anything, slalom / figure 8's had a more upright position and going round a long bend at road speeds naturally led to more lean...
For fast cornering, leaning in is the way to go. The more you lean, the less the bike has to, keeping the contact patch nearer the centre of the tyre. It also keeps the centre of gravity low, keeping the mass of the bike along the line of COG, leading to the contact patch. Plus. If it goes oily side up, you are only inches from the ground, making jettisoning the bike a lot easier.
For slow speed maneuvering, staying as vertical as possible wins, allowing faster changes of direction.
All in my opinion of course
Super, super well done video. Clear and simple I believe it is a good milestone on the way on ending the useless debate on “which is best”😊
I love maneuvering in tight corners, hence my favourite style is probably counter leaning
Only concern i have on aggressive counter leaning is its fine to show people on dry days in car parks but realty on the street is very different. Wet, slippy, stock tires , dusty roads, road markings , uneven Road surface,
all reduce traction and tilting the bike over edge of tyres can lead to some squirming of tires or total slippage.
depending on conditions i use all of above except the knee out - i Like my knees not damaged in a crash
I use both: I counterlean on dry normal roads because I prefer the response, but put my body into the turn on wet roads or motorways because I don’t want my bike slipping out from underneath me
Thanks so much for making this video. I watched the Fortnine video and was so confused.
Great video, it confused me seeing people obsessed with getting knee down on the streets, while isle of man TT riders never seemed to get close.
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Good stuff to know. I noticed that I instinctively lean to keep my center of gravity above the wheels. It's often wet and slick around here, it makes me feel like I'm less likely to slide. I'm not going very fast though. I imagine at a certain speed, it's more important to keep your weight in plane with the bike.
Beautifully made and communicated. This is exactly how I feel about the whole deal. Fantastic video! Thank you for making it.
I always remember Lorenzo and Stoner riding styles on Moto GP, they were completely different and still would do basically the same times. What that means? Just ride the way you feel more comfortable.
As a pre-teen, mes amis, on my 10 spd., I learned that I could attack corners quicker by leaning outward...and it felt safer, and looked neater too !
Offroad, counter leaning provides more grip and balance. It is the only safe way to do it.
On bigger bikes, ones that would scrape or touch the ground, sometimes leaning with the bike can keep the bike more upright, allowing for tighter/faster turns where counter leaning would bottom out the pegs (similar to older bikes).
Counter is safer in the wet, like when riding road. Prevents low siding.
I'd rather be using less lean angle for a given speed and corner by hanging off any day of the week. Counter leaning is fine for traffic and slow manoeuvring. Out on the country roads it's not the right technique and limits grip/causes you to use edge grip sooner.
Hey Bro, you are by far the best instructor. Thanks for the videos, they are very useful, indeed. 😎
Everything in this video is clear, concise and accurate. Generally high speed corners with wider radius means inside lean and sharp corners and slow speed maneuvers favor counter lean. Another way I like to measure it is by G force. Higher the G force, more inside lean you should have and the lower the G force, the less inside lean you should have and at slow speed where you pull no Gs, you should counter lean. For example a 90 degree slow speed turn is a counter lean but if you were to take the same turn and much greater speed, you should lean inside instead and the G force will counteract the gravity, forcing your body to be upright.
Now let's talk about how it affects tire. This is an explanation I haven't seen anyone mention is how the physics affect tire during counter leaning vs inside leaning. At high speed, high G force corners, leaning inside will force more of the lateral force towards the middle of the tire's contact patch maximizing it's traction as opposed to the edge of the tire which is what leaning outside or sitting straight will do which compromises traction. You may ask, how does leaning in put more of the tire's middle section of the contact patch with the ground despite you being closer to the edge of the tire? Because the G force fights the gravity and transfer the force more towards the middle.
One the street leaning in is important for rain and situations when you need more turn but want to limit lean for traction. Neutral is good when you don’t need make quick changes. Counterbalance is great for slow turns and slow tight turns.
There´s no ultimate right or wrong. It all depends on the bike you´re riding and where you´re riding it.
You can´t ride a cruiser like a track bike and vice versa. Is it an ADV or sportbike, naked or touring, even the manufacturer is a key to the right answer. Just like the riding style.
The first question to find an answer to body position should allways be: what bike are you riding.
Every answer without taking this (and more) into consideration is just BS.
Dragging knees or elbows is strictly for track use only. Imagine dragging your knee through a pothole in a bend of a public street. It will rip your leg out of your hips, most likely anding your riding career forever.
Best advice for everyday riding: don´t go seeking for the boudaries of your OR your bikes capabilities. Allways leave a margin for errors.
Your life will depend on it.
Other than that, it was a very infomative clip. Thanks for that.
great serie. production and quality became much better!
I can think of one BIG advantage of leaning over (hanging off?) in high speeds that I haven't seen mentioned. If you fall off due to a low slide (very common in racing and high speed cornering) you have less distance to fall and less impact. Therefore less injury potential.