Britain's Gift To The Soviets | When Rolls Royce Gave The Jet Engine To Russia, And They Copied It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2024
- In 1951, a Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 was shot down over Korea's west coast and plummeted into the Yellow Sea.
The jet was pulled from the shallow water by US and South Korean forces and transported by a British frigate for study.
At a US Air Force base in Dayton, Ohio, the plane is poured over. One of the first discoveries of this incredible aircraft comes when the engine is inspected. Expecting to find a hybrid of Russian and
German jet technology, the teams studying the captured prize receive a shock. The plane
is powered by what appears to be a Rolls-Royce Neen II, designed in England.
The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 (Russian: Микоян-Гуревич МиГ-15; USAF/DoD designation: Type 14; NATO reporting name: Fagot) is a jet fighter aircraft developed by Mikoyan-Gurevich for the Soviet Union. The MiG-15 was one of the first successful jet fighters to incorporate swept wings to achieve high transonic speeds. In aerial combat during the Korean War, it outclassed straight-winged jet day fighters, which were largely relegated to ground-attack roles. In response to the MiG-15's appearance and in order to counter it, the United States Air Force rushed the North American F-86 Sabre to Korea.
When refined into the more advanced MiG-17, the basic design would again surprise the West when it proved effective against supersonic fighters such as the Republic F-105 Thunderchief and McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II in the Vietnam War of the 1960s.
The MiG-15 is believed to be one of the most produced jet aircraft, with more than 13,000 manufactured. The MiG-15 remains in service with the Korean People's Army Air Force as an advanced trainer.
The first turbojet fighter developed by Mikoyan-Gurevich OKB was the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-9, which appeared in the years immediately after World War II. It used a pair of reverse-engineered German BMW 003 engines. The MiG-9 was a troublesome design that suffered from weak, unreliable engines and control problems. Categorized as a first-generation jet fighter, it was designed with the straight-style wings common to piston-engined fighters.
In 1946 Soviet engine technology was far behind the West's. The Germans had been unable to develop airworthy turbojets with thrust over 1,130 kilograms-force (11,100 N; 2,500 lbf) capable of running for more than a few hours at the time of the surrender in May 1945, which limited the performance of immediate Soviet postwar jet aircraft designs. The Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer A. S. Yakovlev suggested to Premier Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy the reliable, fully developed Rolls-Royce Nene (having been alerted to the fact that the U.K. Labour government wanted to improve post-war UK-Russia foreign relations) for the purpose of copying them in a minimum of time. Stalin is said to have replied, "What fool will sell us his secrets?"
MiG-15 General characteristics:
Crew: 1
Length: 10.102 m (33 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 10.085 m (33 ft 1 in)
Height: 3.7 m (12 ft 2 in)
Wing area: 20.6 m2 (222 sq ft)
Airfoil: root: TsAGI S-10; tip: TsAGI SR-3
Empty weight: 3,681 kg (8,115 lb)
Gross weight: 5,044 kg (11,120 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 6,106 kg (13,461 lb) with 2x600 L (160 US gal; 130 imp gal) drop-tanks
Fuel capacity: 1,420 L (380 US gal; 310 imp gal) internal
Powerplant: 1 × Klimov VK-1 centrifugal-flow turbojet, 26.5 kN (5,950 lbf) thrust
Performance
Maximum speed: 1,076 km/h (669 mph, 581 kn) at sea level
1,107 km/h (688 mph; 598 kn) / M0.9 at 3,000 m (9,800 ft)
Maximum speed: Mach 0.87 at sea level
Cruise speed: 850 km/h (530 mph, 460 kn) Mach 0.69
Ferry range: 2,520 km (1,570 mi, 1,360 nmi) at 12,000 m (39,000 ft) with 2x600 L (160 US gal; 130 imp gal) drop-tanks
Service ceiling: 15,500 m (50,900 ft)
Rate of climb: 51.2 m/s (10,080 ft/min)
Wing loading: 296.4 kg/m2 (60.7 lb/sq ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.54
Armament
Guns:
2 × 23 mm Nudelman-Rikhter NR-23 autocannon in the lower left fuselage (80 rounds per gun, 160 rounds total)
1 × 37 mm Nudelman N-37 autocannon in the lower right fuselage (40 rounds total)
Hardpoints: 2 , with provisions to carry combinations of:
Bombs: 100 kg (220 lb) bombs
Other: drop tanks or unguided rockets
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30:00 Britain had several national atomic spies in their own ranks, who spied earlier than Fuchs, why downplaying this part and blaming a foreign person? Feels blindsided and arrogant to me, just to please the public.
Apopogies Accepted & Your Comments Noted
Thanks for video! imho, because of speaking after WW2 Brittanie, it's a good time to mention book by talented ex GRU officer, Captain Evgeniy Ivanov. It been published at english by name "Naked Spy" and being banned in UK. Couse it mentions the famous Profumo Affair at starting of 1963. I hope, you read it!
Had read this at enlarged ebook edition from 2012-13yy, in native russian .
There had mentioned western sloppiness with secret documents, useful (for com bloc intel ) stupidity and naivety of western officials& militaries, etc..
Also, there is picante rumor from '50s, about Elizabeth caught Phillip messing with Margaret, assuming she seduced horny husband -sailor to revenge elder sister-queen)) OK, all characters in the book for now already being late and may RIP😪 . Elizabeth was very smart and decided to take care of her family happiness- punished hard sister and and began to tight control still loved husband..
Engines: with help some agents of influence were bought Neens and more advanced Derwents. also, soviet and after that chinese delegations to western defense industries walked with soft and sticky insoles to catch metal sawdust for analyzing alloys and try somehow replicate them. Klimov was plant chief director.
Korea: To fight for ex red army korean company commander, captain Kim Il Sung, Stalin sent to China , AF division with many WW2 veterans in it, which commanded by soviet super ace & triple star hero, Kozhedub. From this came know soviet joke rhyme about pilot Li Si Tsin (Lisitsin, translates as Foxy or Foxman😁)
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was not an alliance between the Germans and the Soviets, but an agreement on non-aggression... An alliance is a completely different matter... don't spread lies!
It wasn't Rolls Royce - it was the Labour Government.
Yes, I am sure they threw themselves to the floor and cried out "You'll never get me to try and make money with the second largest country on earth!"
Chinese jet engines are based on a licenced copy of wait for it. Rolls Royce engines too. Another Labour party policy for good relations?
@@MM22966 they were strapped for cash because none of the "aid" was free, unlike Ukraine (maybe we forgot to give 10% to the big guy?).
Yes, it was the government because they had to approve it and they needed the money but also Rolls Royce wanted to remain viable so they didn't go the way of the Miles Aircraft Company ( designers of the X-15) or if Canadian Avro (who solved supersonic wing design). There were others.
The USA is exploitative and it's imagined technical superiority was built on stolen ideas and solutions. This guilt leads them to accuse others of what they do themselves.
@@JLSMaytham Marshalll Aid didn't need to be repaid. How's the weather in Moscow?
@@jameswoollard84 But Lend Lease had to. In 47 it looked like they had to repay/return all
It is ironic that an earlier foreign air force used a Rolls-Royce engine as well. The first German Ju87 (Stuka) flew in the mid 1930s with a Rolls-Royce Kestrel V engine.
Why not? Sovjets had even british and us citizens as ministers after revolution. It was so called "color revolution" as usual.
That Mig 15 is still on display in Dayton, Ohio. I've seen it several times; fantastic museum. Takes at least 2 days to visit. ME-262, V1, V2, Bockscar, Valkyrie, etc. Overwhelming history in one place.
My favorite air museum.
I can't believe my eyes!!!
"Soviet delegation tours the R-R plant and is shown latest engine developments"
Amazingly ...stupid!
One of the problems the Soviet Jet engine designers had the hindered development was the turbine blades tended to break apart or shatter at high speed while the Rolls Royce engine had solved the problem because of the metal used had different alloys which gave it the ability to withstand heat and pressure , Some members of the Soviet delegation that were taken on a tour of the Rolls Royce plant wore shoes that had soft rubber soles and walked around the areas where the turbine blades were being machined to pick up the metal particles as they were embedded into the soft rubber soles of their shoes to take back to Russia for their scientists to figure out the composition of the metal, they did that in case the British did not go thru with the sale of the jet engine
Lies and complete rubbish
The turbine blades were air cooled and this prevented them from disintegration.
@@bluemouse5039 These RR Turbines had centrifugal compressors, worse than German Axial flow Turbines
You must come from Bond 007 family. 😂😂😂
@@bluemouse5039
Do you honestly think that rolls Royce would allow the factory floor to be so cluttered with rubbish and swarf that government diplomats would be able to collect such stuff on their shoes. ?
no one to say that Jet technology was stolen from Germany 😂
The Nene was a technological dead end and the world required these engines not as cutting edge technology but as stable machines for powering their new jet aircraft designs. The one thing you never want to try is sorting out the quirks of a new engine and the quirks of a new aircraft design on the same machine. So Stalin offered
gold to a broke Britain and the deal went through. As an added bonus, the Soviets later reverse engineered and somewhat improved the Nene as a stopgap while
getting their own jet engine designs sorted out. As to the origins of the Korean War, many members of the new North Korean army were tough verterans of the WW2 Red Army.
A very good explanation
@@Dronescapes You forgot about a soviet officer ( _I can't remember his position_ ) paying a visit to Rolls-Royce factory, and collecting mineral filing with a rubber sponge under attaches under his shoes, to later on they were able to analysis the alloys Rolls-Royce uses on their engines.
You can say whatever you want about the soviet that time, but their scientist was very clever and develop their theoretical scantest theories to it max potentials , but the western arrogant can't accept that.
@@arduinoguru7233 Western arrogance can’t accept what? I give credit where credits due, their rocket science and space program was far more independent and cutting edge than the USAs who relied more on German scientists than the USSR. However Soviet education systems and quality in production lagged behind constantly. It’s not like the USSR had a broad educated middle class, backed by prestigious universities like those of Germany the UK and the USA. So they did rely a lot on copying, reverse engineering and stealing secret to learn and develop from, more so than any other nation bar China which mooched off them. Literally inventing new and innovative ways was something that occurred in the USSR also but the other half of that is that the USSR was straight up copying which is pragmatic but isn’t all that impressive.
The closest they got to priority was probably 1950 after gain all the German scientists in combination with the infiltration of the Manhattan project and their industrial espionage here (jet engines), with the TU-4 and a number of other secrets. After this flurry of infiltration, defection and German brains the USSR began to slip increasingly behind, the occasional reverse engineering on Heat seeking missiles (the Aim-9 into the K-13) and the TU-144 being the rushed crude copying of the Concorde. The west never tried to imitate the USSR bar in space or being scared by what were in fact inferior machines such as MiG-25 Foxbat/Foxhound. But their own response the F-15 showed just how technology backwards the USSR really was. By the late 1970s-1990s the USSR was noticeably technologically behind just like it had been in the 1900 up until the mid to late 1940s.
The picture of the B-29 and B-36 side by side had my jaw hitting the floor.
The difference in scale and ambition realised in such a short time is truly amazing.
That was an excellent video. My Grandad was WW2 pilot though he got his wings just as the war in Europe was ending so he was never commissioned.
He talked fondly about learning to fly in Canada and crossing the Atlantic on the Queen Mary to go to flight school. He was manager of a Jute mill which was a reserved occupation however when the call went out for pilots and having previously flown gliders he volunteered.
He was a great man and I knew him until passed age 94. He gave me my love of planes taking me to air shows and talking all about his experiences.
For that I'm truly grateful.
Luv and Peace.
The B-29 was build to wage war against civilians, so typical American, go for the weak.
He believed in: "The brotherhood of men" oh what heresy! Men cannot be brothers anymore, sad.
Burgess , Philby, Maclean, Blunt and Cripps!
Criminals
And Ramsey McDonald
Yeah they stole and copied it, but their inadequate knowledge of metallurgy rewarded
their efforts with engines that broke at very inconvenient times. Like... on takeoff.
I visited Beirut 5 years ago and stumbled upon the apartment building Kim Philby lived in. It would have been lovely 60 years ago )
Telling that Brits were trying to persuade Stalin not to trust Hitler with no avail is a funny twist indeed, considering British delegation sabotaged the alliance agreement between USSR, France and UK to stir up a fight between USSR and Germany; and considering Stalin signed the pact with Germany to win time preparing for the unavoidable war
I am sure Royce refused payments in gold and diamonts, just to make the country proud.
BTW - technically the Korean War isn’t over - no peace treaty was signed, only a ceasefire. So even though there isn’t any fighting currently - there is no real peace.
You you want to say that any country which is not at war with another country has a peace treaty with that country?
But yet, the Soviet aerospace industry still did not fully take advantage of what the Nene engine offered in the long term, probably because it was a centrifugal flow engine, not the axial flow engine commonly used today. Soviet jet engines up until the 1980's were in many ways technologically inferior to their Western counterparts until when the Soviets were finally able to develop on their own full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) to develop engines like high-bypass turbofans for the Antonov An-72 transport and the Antonov An-124 large transport, and the engines for the MiG-29 and Su-27 jet fighter.
The lesson is simple , if fighting a war you leave the operations to the experts, polititions should keep out unless they have held a significant position in the armed forces and have had combat experiance
8:29... Referencing the P-39 Aircobra when you claim it "aggravates the Soviets to be given older technology but they make do with what they're given." Never have I heard a more preposterous statement based on ZERO facts.
Firstly, the P-39 was a an almost radical cutting-edge brand-spanking new fighter designed with an engine behind the pilot, a car-door like cockpit entry, and cannon shooting through the propeller hub, just recently put into service, not some "old" castoff. The Soviets actually LOVED their P-39s. You correctly stated it was unpopular in the West because it did not fit the combat characteristics encountered most often there, i.e. high altitude interceptions. However the P-39 EXCELLED and was easily the equal or superior to any other fighter in the kind of low level combat and ground harassment that almost exclusively predominated in the war in the East. Don't even get me started on how they adored their American M4 Sherman tanks they received even over their own vaunted T-34s.
I'll give you slight leeway that perhaps you might have jumped to such an ignorant conclusion because the Spitfires first given to the Soviets were not the latest models. Didn't matter because the Soviets rejected the type as a whole as unsuitable for those very same conditions the P-39 and later aircraft of their own design excelled at. Too fragile, too narrow an undercarriage for their rough runways, wouldn't run well on Soviet low-octane fuel, and their pilots weren't familiar with wing-mounted armament. Using your example to broadly suggest the West of basically dumping "old" hardware on the Soviets is just plain WRONG. At a precise moment in history when ANYTHING was better than nothing, they actually received the best from the West - that was available to give at the time. I don't think there is a more beloved "Soviet" "fighting" vehicle than the American Studebaker 2.5 ton 6x6 truck, which many a soldier never knew wasn't home grown.
Absolutely right
THE RUSSIANS ALSO PUT THE MERLIN ENGIN IN THE AIRCOBRA
The Soviets also received the P-47, a aircraft with even more advanced technologies than the P-39.
It might have been a "radical cutting-edge brand-spanking new fighter design," but the US Airforce didn't fancy it at all.
Thank you! I was about to make a similar comment but decided it unnecessary after reading yours. You are 100% correct.
The US got the Radar Magnetron - we were all on the same side back then
@@trevortrevortsr2 we pawned our secrets to save ourselves and Europe.
Now they look to Germany in Europe.
Let's not bother next time. Let them enjoy European unity marching across the globe.
I'm glad you made a video about this, as I've known we gave them Jet technology, but didn't know all about it. Great video, nice narration, thank you.
In July 1940 during a conversation with the British ambassador to Moscow Stafford Cripps the Soviet leader said that before the outbreak of the Second World War no Soviet-British rapprochement was possible as his country focused on the demolition of the 'old' balance of powers built after the First World War without the Soviet Union, while Great Britain fought for its retention. Cripps cabled London and reported Stalin's comments: 'The Soviet Union wanted to change the old equilibrium, while England and France wished preserve it. Also Germany wanted to make a change in the equilibrium and this common desire to do away with the old equilibrium became the basis for the rapprochement with the Germans.'
And what was USSR bringing to the world? Bolshevism. Russians can't be trusted. Also Brits have a weird slippery way of thinking. Surely enough this equilibrium can be broken by individuals whom reasonable can be called traitors.
Labour prime minister Clem Atlee in 1946 gave 6 jet engines to Stalin with plans and permission to build free of any cost.
How was it not treason by Labour?
That charge gets sticky when it is the ruling government making the decision as policy. If it could be made true, what would happen to any government replaced by its rival after an election?
Socialist solidarity
So full of shit why wasn't OSS CIA founder Allen and John Foster Dulles's great love of Nazis and willingness to befriend 3rd Reich Industrialists and their interests before and after WWll Treason?? Not to mention all the other UK and American fat cat Nazi Sympathizers. All you conservatives are closeted NAZIS. That's the real problem.
What about the advanced aero technology that was given to the Americans, was that not also treason?
@@vumba1331 Well, I'd say there's a difference between your allied cousins who you sometimes have disagreements with, and a bloody-handed police state that points nuclear weapons at you and regularly threatens your destruction. Oh, wait, you were talking about 1946, weren't you?
It was the labour government that give the jet to Russia . Russia said it would only use the jet for civil aviation. The USA went mad with Britain and rightly so.
land lease and the benefit of location made the usa the ultimate wiinner of ww 1 and ww 2
The he ultimate winner was not the US. It was the Jews.
This is a very interesting video, I did want to know more about this, so this is a perfect video!
Glad you liked it!
These engines were given as a quid pro quo. Stalin threatened to release Subhash Chandra Bose in India and get rid of British puppy in India (you know who). This would have derailed the geopolitical equations of British. Hence Britain gave these engines and tech absolutely free.
Source?
Rolls-Royce gave the turbojet in good faith however learning the whole story was interesting
We were not the only country believing the Russians were friendly's
As to tupolev was able to copy the B29 into its own Squadron markings on the vertical stabilizer to aid identification
And how about the Aim 9
Type Sidewinder IR
They are made to fly up the exhaust pipe of the turbojet but one did not go off
I imagine the pilot immediately shut down his engine as it would Cook Off and explode because of the heat if we shut off the fuel the starter would just blow cold air out of the jet pipe
What's a prize to take home though and a very lucky pilot
Don't play the blame game
It is just all our history
I am an Englishman who lives in Britain and I am proud
I wish every human being on this planet right now a good life. Mikey d
Thanks for this video. I have always wondered how it came about.
Looking back with hindsight it was a genius move and a response to being locked out of the nuclear 'Special Relationship' which had begun with Los Alamos. Britain didn't want to see the US dominate the world, especially as we had already gifted the US with a properly working Jet Engine mid-World War Two. It was about balance.
Brits gave as the russians as the americans the same gift, both don't have at this time a developed jet engine yet...
Some people from some nations are playing god.
Considering the death toll that Soviet Union payed fighting the Germans, it was well worthwile to "offer" them a Rolls Royce motor.
It was not Rolls Royce it was Harold Wilson's Labour Government
Wrong - the Attlee Labour Government. Wilson was the Minister responsible.
Undocumented allegations by senior British Intelligence officers that Wilson was a Soviet Spy.
The Chinese army was not volunteer. That is some significant misinformation.
thanks random internet stranger, i will take this statement lacking any citation at face value to heart!
The early US jet airliners were said to be copied from British airliners,which led to the downfall of the British civilian airline industry😮
The Comet had the well know catastrophic issues (later fixed), but they were still the first turbojet powered airlines, and you have to recognize that Britain gave the U.S. a pretty decent headstart when it comes to turbojets. Not only Whittle and his engine were shipped in great secrecy to the United States in 1941, but the British engine became the first one to fly on U.S. soil, in the Bell XP-59 in 1942.
It was also the engine that powered the first U.S. jet powered fighter, Kelly Johnson/Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star.
That engine became both General Electric and Pratt & Whitney's first turbojet, kickstarting an entire industry, which is why G.E. still worships Whittle to this day, and even felt compelled to make a film in the 50s. Centrifugal turbojet aside, do not forget that Metrovick/Griffith, etc. had been working on axial turbojets as well, and their knowledge was shared as well, just like Whittle's.
Without turbojet propulsion you do not have jet airliners either...
You can easily see why Britain would share all their knowledge with their precious allies, it was only fair after what the U.S. did for Britain, but the same, in a way, can be said for the Soviet Union, as they had sacrificed a lot as well, and perhaps, in return, they also got the same engine as a gift, just like the U.S. had received in 1941.
You can argue that the MiG-15 was superior to the Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star because of Swept Wings (copied from the Germans), but it is ironic that these opposing aircraft had the same engine donated by Britain.
Positive Reinforcement works but continuous Positive Reinforcement is needed
Korea was testing grounds, and a whole lot more. All engineered. MacArthur had his suspicions for the real reasons but opted for the retirement plan and parade 😂
Time 9:00, footage of a MK-1/ANT-22 flying boat is such useful fill-in, not at all stodgy filler.
Rolls Royce did not give Russians the engine, it was a gift from Atlee, the PM at the time.
I never understood how people really thought that the soviet union actually had anything to do with marxism or communism. They labelled themselves like that but it wasn't any different than the continuation of the class system, only with changed heads.
παντα γενναιόδωρος ανοιχτοχερης και στοργικός ο θειος ροτι, λιγα του γραφουμε πολλά περιμενουμε και εαν δεν μας στειλη τσιμεντο να γινει
And Whittle’s engine had already been sent to the US so GE engineers could “do something” with it. As I recall , in 1941
I'm still not clear if the then Labour government cabinet had to approve this sale of the engine to the Soviets ?
they sure had to approve the sale - and they did approve it
Thats capitalism for ya. Your country is severely crippled after the war, and your ally sends you a bill.
Yeah this was an utterly stupid decision of Atlee's all in all he was far far too trusting.
Like so many the Union flag is being flown Upside Down, an international recognised sign of Distress !
How did this thoughtful man view the multiplely horrendous massacres and purges?
An act of madness, stupidity or high treason?
Well, if the Labour party was involved then it's quite possibly a combination of all three.
@@dogbadger😄😄😄
@@dogbadger All three.
All of the above
Just for the record, the U.S. had the same engine, including Frank Whittle, the inventor, since 1941.
Both were sent, in great secrecy to the U.S. back then.
Whittle's turbojet powered the first U.S. jet aircraft (Bell XP-59), but also Kelly Johnson/Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star, which proved inferior to the MiG, despited having the same British derived turbojet. Lack of swept wings for the F-80 is a good explanation of the basic inferiority of the U.S. aircraft.
The U.S., in Korea, rushed an axial turbojet powered aircraft, the F-86 Sabre. Britain also shared their work on axial turbojets (Metrovick)...
Here is a G.E. documentary, made in the 50s, about the events:
th-cam.com/video/cOzE5GYhaoU/w-d-xo.html
Russia will give UK food and fuel so they won’t starve.
Cannot remember who / which company it was .., but as i understand it .., one of the ship building companys on the Clyde or Tyne sold ships to Japan in the early 20th centuary .., which included the engineering drawings ... They never came back ...
The Japanese navy , between 1890 and 1930 , was basically the Royal Navy of the East .
Amazing that by the US beggaring the UK who through there strength saved the lives of all in the US and the world which can never be denied would cause all the issues which followed. We even leased our bases in the Empire to them and still that terrible hunger or Greed was too great.
Says one of the little tyrants who ruled large parts of the world and lost everything because it had to start the second world war. Had to start the second world war because of unstoppable greed! Please be aware, after the third world war the UK will not exist any more, nor will there be a British King and London will be underwater. Scotland will be washed clean by a mega Tsunami and Wales will be free to search for their own destiny again, from an about seventy five year old Christian prophecy.
Can you explain what you mean by "saved the lives of all in the US" if you don't mind? I don't really understand what you are saying both there and the rest of your comment.
German-Polish declaration of non-aggression 26 January 1934. The German-French declaration
dated December 6, 1938. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement (AGNA) of 18 June 1935.
Thanks tea sippers.
You also can thank us for the jet engine, septic, and a whole host of other inventions that came your way.
@@johnhudghton3535 We appreciate your work Tea Sipper.
A classic US foreign policy own goal. Rolls Royce was allowed to sell those engines because the British Government were so strapped for cash by US actions. We simply needed the money to pay for all the lend-lease.
Sorry for saving your Country.
@@briangray5921 Don't be arrogant. Britain paid us back every dime for lend-lease about ten years ago. And our ally paid us back in blood when we committed a war crime and invaded Iraq the second time.
Ah Yes. He was a traitor because of America. Spoken like a true Marxist.
@ryanreedgibson … exactly so. The post war Lockheed Shooting Star similarly benefitted from the British Goblin engine. The present day F35 (vtol version) also uses the Rolls Royce Liftsystem and F135 engine. Another ungrateful act was to prevent the US invading Canada in 1812. 😊
@@briangray5921 Yeah, like you saved South America, Chile, Nicaragua, Honduras, The Philipines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Serbia etc.? Or "saved" Germany by destroying the civilian infrastructure of a NATO Ally?
Kissinger summed you up well "to be the friend of the USA is fatal".
An occupying, exploitative colonial power is not welcome so establishes 800+ bases in fewer than 200 countries that are members of the UN!
Yankee go home.
Besides, if you look at any historical data the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany, D-Day was a side show numerically and the USA adopted the nazi regime and ideology after hanging the ringleaders for public consumption.
You have nothing to be proud of
USA provided Stalin with an Air Cooled radial engine, changed from imperial to metric units, brought to 1'000 HP, that fought in the Spanish Revolution War on Polikarpov I-16.
No surprise the britons gave RR Jet Turbines to soviets, and not much later, the hebrew Rosenbergs passend USSR the A bomb technology; for sure everyone knew how soviet system was.
Churchill went to power after Chamberlain resigned, Winston Churchill had no legitimacy during war.
When war was over, his program for elections included attacking the Soviet Union, even with Nuclear Weapons.
Insane at any age, at any time!
What crap . Churchill was not going to attack the Soviet Union . He did order a study ,
" Operation Unthinkable" to be taken into consideration. He would have been remiss if he had not . And the study , was
for a conventional war .
Does any body know, how much gold did Britain get from russia for the jet technology? Ive been trying hard to find the answer, but cannot.
Feeling a bit deflated, should be able to easily find this information but I cannot
with other words: to reverse-ingeneer the most sophisticated jet engine and deploy it better than your enemies, you need to know what you're doing
And Canada lost the attempt to build our own turbine airplane " the " Avro "
We prefer to buy used submarines 10 billions $ from UK and they never served If I recall
Siegfried Günter designed the MIG-15
Lavochkin were a better choice, the LA-15 was a better design than the mig-15
The engine was an out of date model.
The technology of that jet had been proven to be a dead end.
Rolls Royce had moved on to modern to modern turbo jets.
Also this dead end technology was sold not given
All true, but the dead end centrifugal turbojet proved quite efficient and lethal when used in the MiG 15, mostly because of its swept wings. Ironically the U.S. initially deployed the F-80 Shooting Star against the MiG, and it had a variant of the same engine. Despite having been designed by the great Kelly Johnson, it crucially lacked swept wings, and proved to be inferior, which is why eventually the F-86 was rushed into action, opening the operational door for axial turbojets.
Given how many units were also (probably) sold to China by the Soviet Union, those few units sold by Britain proved to be quite a gift in practical terms
@@Dronescapes you could also point out the uk gave the info to the USA of the Miles M.52.
This gift gave them the supersonic crown.
Pity they did not sell it to them
Quite honestly when it comes to the M.52 things get a lot more complicated, and the lack of documentation does not help.
If you rely on Eric Brown, Miles assisted Bell with aerodynamic issues, but that’s about it.
It is safe to assume that the M.52 was abruptly shut down to favor Bell’s race to break the sound barrier.
To the ones that think the shut down happened because of lack of funding, that is not correct, as they still had a good amount of funds at their disposal.
To the ones that say that Whittle’s engine did not exist, there is evidence it did, and it was also successfully tested.
The M.52 was already scheduled for the test with Brown as test pilot.
Perhaps we will never know the truth.
On the other hand Britain did not only share the centrifugal turbojet (and sent Whittle to the U.S. in great secrecy), but they also shared everything they knew about the axial turbojet (Metrovick, etc.). Britain had been working on both since the late 20s, but unlike Germany they did not deploy operationally an immature, and quite frankly strategically not that important at the time, technology. You can argue that if Griffith had not stopped Whittle for at least 6 years, then Britain could have had a proper turbojet before the beginning of WW2, but perhaps Griffith’s stance is another mystery, or in my opinion a blatant conflict of interests, or more simply jealousy.
Letting Whittle’s patent lapse because of lack of funding, and not making his invention a national secret, allowed Nazi Germany to take his work, copy it, and distribute it across German Universities, landing on the desk of a young Hans Von Ohain. In 1938, the first jet powered aircraft to take to the skies (for a very, very short time), the He 178, was mixed powered, centrifugal and axial combined, opening the doors for further development.
I believe Griffith, despite his important contributions to the axial turbojet, should be forever remembered as the person that delayed the British turbojet by many, many years, making a dreadful mistake.
Without the American economic support, most of all for the communist Soviet industries, the war in the Soviet Union would have been over in 1942. (The American Industrialist build the biggest truck factory until today, in the Soviet Union before the war, one reason to see so many American trucks in old Soviet era war documentaries, the American & Soviet trucks feature the same star of the devil on its doors) The many years long revolution war in Russia had destroyed most industries completely and killed most intellectuals from which the engineers came. The communist Soviet Union would not have been able to build up the military forces to attack all of Europe, what was Stalin's and his party plan & goal. Make the whole world communist. Nobody has supported this goal as the American and British did. By the way, did you the reader know that the Jew Karl Marx wrote his main work while living in Britain? That he was financially supported by the Scottish-British Free Masons? Communism was developed as a weapon to be deployed against “enemies” nations. Russia and China would not have become communist without support of the USA. The same goes for many communist African nations. Ask yourself, why did the US army pushed about ten European nations into the chains and terror of the communist Soviet Union. Go, and ask them if they felt liberated? Their communist ordeal only ended beginning 1989 for Hungary & Poland and others, but took until 1991 for countries like Albania. The so-called "Cold War" only happened in the media, not in real life. The communist could always buy anything of western technology, as long as they could pay with cash!
That the early German jet engines did not live that long, was because the manufacturers could not get the needed materials like high quality steel and titanium, as they needed to be imported. That is why their power potential could not be realised.
The U.S. Marine Corp stated that if Inchon had been defended by a Crack Japanese Division. The Inchon landing may have been defeated.
Churchills secretary when asked how did the allies win the war, replied, "our german scientists were better than their german scientists."😂😂😂😂
Well, Frank Whittle, the inventor of the turbojet, was as British as it gets, and he was left alone as it gets, unsupported, unfunded, ridiculed, you name it!
It was only when he was spotted by the Americans that he finally saw some recognition.
His engine became the first U.S. turbojet, powering the first jet aircraft to fly on U.S. soil, but also the first jet powered U.S. jet fighter (F-80 Shooting Star).
He was shipped in great secrecy to the United States, and his engine became the blueprint for General Electric's first engine, but also Pratt & Whitney's.
As we know, his engine, taken over by Rolls Royce, became the MiG15 engine as well (copied of course).
It is a shame that Whittle was ignored for so many years (at least 6 to be on the safe side), otherwise Britain would have had a proper turbojet (and not a disastrous engine like the Germans had) before the beginning of the war. In 1945 his engine powering an aerodynamically outdated Gloster Meteor, matched the Me 262's speed, and contrary to the German engine, his actually worked properly, and was truly reliable, needing only overhauls, whereas the German engine had to be literally scrapped after a handful of hours. (10 to 25 hours at best). It was basically useless, other than pathetic propaganda.
Imagine if they had Whittle's engine in 1939!
On the other hand, Germans were extremely advanced in aerodynamics, having supersonic wind tunnels that the Brits could only dream of.
@@Dronescapes The supersonic wind tunnels were von Braun's for his ballistic missile program. A program that very much helped the allies win the war. It cost Germany at least as much as the atomic bomb cost the United States, and at the end of it they had a very expensive, very inaccurate way to throw a few tonnes of explosives into English turnip fields. Whereas the USA possessed the single most powerful weapon ever seen in all history. Germany wasted enormous sums of money and resources on ineffective follies. Thank goodness.
Here's the odd part in the Korean war VK-1 Russian reversed engineer RR Nene has to go up against the PW J42 the US licensed produced RR Nene. Between the Two which was better US or Russian version
No. Germany and the USSR were never in an alliance. A non-aggression pact with a time limit, for good measure, is not an alliance.
Another indication is that, when Great Britain declared war on Germany, Great Britain and the USSR did not declare war on each other.
Yes, there was trade and some cooperation between the two countries, but that happened between neutral nations as well, and to greater extents in many cases.
Correction: There was a big alliance, post-war, between the GDR and the USSR. So, Germany (half of it) was very much allied to the USSR. It perhaps went further than an alliance. The GDR could very well be argued to be a puppet state.
The Poles don't quite see it that way. The massacre in the forest has never been forgiven. Russia carried out ethnic cleansing to destroy the intellectuals to allow an occupation of their part of Poland. The Germans did similar. Russia committed war crimes and got away with it.
You're an another apologist for Russia? the Katyn forest massacre they tried to blame on the Germans. But the Germans exposed it.
Stalin committed war crimes and the British left found it hard to believe. Like their Chinese allies today.
Definitely Hypocrisy if supply Ukraine with Weapons were infuriating Russia
We are a country who made the modern world .
Again - “ England, England England “ obviously written by ‘ the English’ . I wish everyone would appreciate that it wasn’t ’England’ under threat - wasn’t the English fighting and perishing, it was the British empire and allies . BTW the uk isn’t England - would be nice to remember .
Womp womp
This is barely comprehensible. Are you somehow blaming Scotland?
HOW Come AT The END THERE IS [NO] BRITISH PLANES ?
We don't want to threaten anyone, Labour party policy, Unilateralism
If we declare peace so will everyone else. peace in our time, I have the signature of their leader. Next week war starts. 😂 Labour party shocked.
AT The END [IF you BOTHERED To LOOK ]They GO THROUGH The HISTORY Of AVIATION From The Wright Brothers & Pioneers /visionaries Of ALL AIRCRAFT Muppet. @@alganhar1
Britain is nowaday a big leader in wars and break apart countries nowaday yet
And Russia try to reunify them? What a joke.
Name 1 thing Russia hasnt copied lol
Vostok. Soyuz. There, I named two.
The turret tossing tank.
Borsch?
@@peterfable you forgot sputnik, but my comment is about Russia copying without shame, they copy more then they have done themself, and usually they fuck it up aswell
WHAT ABOUT [ALL] The THINGS the u.s.a. HAS COPIED LOL
From everything I've read over the years the soviet's loved the p-39s. They made more kills with the P39 than any other US aircraft used by other allies. They really liked the 37 mm canon that protruded through the propeller hub and it was a great ground attack/tank buster.
@jameswoollard84
1 month ago
Rolls Royce also Gave The Jet Engine To the US.
Back then it was still Whittle’s engine. They also shipped the brilliant British inventor together with the engine.
That was 1941, and in 1942 it powered the first turbojet aircraft to fly on U.S. soil, the Bell XP-59
Bombing Raids. It's the victimless war. At least you don't see them here or hear much about them
During the period of 2nd World War, Politicians of Britain was not so much crude or cruel as of today. Ethics, morality or conscience of Political Leaders or of common citizens was not so much degraded like drainwater. Rather cordial and heartfelt relationship among people of one country with another.
Only during and after WW ll, we see only US Govt. along with their Military Industrial Complex exterminating and decimating anything and everything including all types of civil infrastructures ; butchering hundreds of, thousands of innocent civilians in a planned strategical manner. Some psychopath and maniac people enjoy this horrible incidents with love, joy and unstinted support ! For them, the whole World today is being turned into moribund stinking hell ; not livable for gentlemen and people with conscience and humanity !
Blame the UK Labor party.
There is no UK Labor party. Learn to spell.
@@samuelgarrod8327 UK Labour party. US English auto correct.
@@samuelgarrod8327
Latin: Labor
Old French: Labour
Middle English: Labour
US English: Labor
The Old French's Labour was reverted back to Latin's Labor.
You don't even recognize the French imperialism.
@@samuelgarrod8327learn not to be pedantic.
^ These people above me are all lame
[Insert funny apolitical grill man here]
France did not "give in quickly to the Nazis". France was defeated when the British treacherously run away leaving the French to fend for themselves. In fact the British spent the rest of the war being chased by the Germans from Greece, Crete, Tunisia, Libya, and most of Egypt and the Japanese from Burma and Singapore.
And?
The USSR gave america the prototype to the f35 because they couldn't figure out VTOL for themselves
I think you need to be more coherent when you express yourself. you probably want to make a list of things that the Soviets copied (B-29, Concorde, Shuttle, etc.)
@@DronescapesI dont think the copied type shuttle it was their own shuttle design not like the copied the b29
@@Dronescapes copying b-29 - yes, but 'copying' shuttle reveals some bugs mating in your mind... ussr has partially copied a shape of the shuttle, but that's mostly it. They didn't have a shuttle to reverse engineer it.
Very bad idea given that they were never your friends, even if temporary allies during ww2
Britain's passionate gift to the Soviets.
british lost snooker to Mikoyan in exchange for RR engine
dam eveyone blames capitalism when the fed makes a mess..
Hongkong don't forget.
I think the British copied the Soviet engine not the Soviet copy British.
I think you seriously have to correct your basic knowledge of well documented history.
no way - you are just so wrong
@@dalek3086 what do you mean that's I'm so wrong. First let me enlighten you about British, they claim everything just because they translate it to English. Loot at the hovercraft harrier, the British claimed they're the ones that made hoverjet first which is a lie. Soviet Russia made it first. The same goes with sweat back wins geometry like F111 which they claim. Soviet Russia made it first.
likewise, you can give the best running shoes to any of your "enemies" -- if they cannot run, it's no use
The Rolls Royce Neen was already outdated, and everybody knew. (German-) Axial jet engines were in performance better than radial jet engines like the Neen. So the russians got old technology, with no future development opportunities.
RR Nene…But here is the interesting bit: Britain had been working on axial turbojets since the late 1920s. As a matter of facts Griffith, one of the pioneers of turbojets, wrote a seminal paper on axial turbines in 1926, when Von Ohain did not have the slightest thought about turbojets.
It also happens that Griffith was appointed, in 1929, as the sole judge of the project of a young brilliant engineer who purposely ditched an axial solution because he realized (that is how smart he was) it would take a long time to make it work properly. Of course Griffith, most likely feeling challenged, boycotted the project, and effectively delayed it for at least 6 years. His name was Frank Whittle, and he fully understood that an axial turbojet would eventually dominate (25 years later).
His goal and mission was to create the perfect transitional turbojet, and effectively invent and create the first turbojet. He managed to do that in April 1937, despite Griffith, and with limited private funding received only in mid 1935, and after not being able to renew his patent for lack of money.
His work, not protected by secrecy, was diligently copied by Germany and distributed across their universities, landing in the desk of Hans Von Ohain as well (what a surprise)
People often confuse the useless and flawed German turbojet with their desperate effort to deploy an engine that was absolutely not ready to be operational.
The best and obvious proof is in what happened after the war: the German turbojets were completely ignored, or discarded, with the exceptexception of the French government. They assembled a platoon of Nazi engineers that worked on those disastrous engines, and put them to work. It took them 8 long years, and radical,modifications to make them work, but they also required external work to do so.
By then the British turbojets worked quite well, both axial and centrifugal.
You have to realize that Britain was so concentrated on more strategic things, that they even issued a moratorium on turbojet R&D in the 30s.
This said, if Griffith did not stop Whittle for so many years, Britain would have had the perfect turbojet for that era before the beginning of the war.
By the way, Von Ohain/Heinkel’s first jet powered aircraft had a mixed solution, which included Whittle’s invention, and it is also interesting to note that during the war they both tried to revert back to a centrifugal,turbojet, given the poor results that all those German companies working on the axial turbojet, including Heinkel, produced. That is why, despite the German engine not even being close to be operationally viable, was deployed out of desperation in late 1944.
If Britain acted as stupidly (or desperately) as Germany did, they could have operationally deployed their Metrovick F.2, or the very reliable Whittle’s engine, but at that stage of the war there was no reason on earth to do so, as they were about to win the war, and the scope of a limited production jet aircraft would have been operationally pointless.
If you listen to the new Von Ohain’s interviews on the channel, you can hear directly from him how clueless he was about the benefits of a turbojet, and at the same time you can read in Whittle’s thesis as a student (many years before) how sharp his vision of the future was.
The difference in brilliance between the two engineers is quite evident.
@@Dronescapes Metalurgy was not up the task in axial turbojets. It was easier to make it work in radial/centrifugal turbojets, so that is what Whittle did…
That is the usual “Wikipedia” style explanation. The Germans engines had far more problems beside the prototype stage, which is why it took the French eight endless years + government funding + 120 Nazi engineers + help from a U.S. company + radical modifications, to make them finally work properly, and you can add to that all the years 4/5 other German companies had been working on it (Junkers+Heinkel+BMW), and pouring enormous resources into it.
Britain developed both axial and centrifugal turbojets with smaller resources, moratoriums, and when it comes to Whittle, even all the boycott, total lack of support for many years, utter frustration that made his sleepless, and much more. He did not have the few £ (4 I believe) necessary to renew his patent, that’s how bad it was for him before receiving limited support from private investors and achieve his goal in record time while Von Ohain was pampered by Heinkel, and had all the money he ever needed. You can hear many of this from both the Whittle and Von Ohain interviews.
Aside from Whittle, which is a story in itself, Britain made intelligent strategic choices despite having axial turbojets before the end of the war.
When compared to Whittle’s the were indeed more powerful, but still needed more time to be developed into proper ones.
I am sure you are aware that his engine powered the first U.S. turbojet powered flight in 1942, after he had been sent there in great secrecy with his engine, and that it powered the first U.S. operational jet fighter, the F-80, which proved to be inferior to the MiG 15 in Korea, powered by the same engine, mostly because of swept wings. That prompted the U.S. to deploy the axial turbojet, which was definitively not derived from the German one.
Metrovick shared their knowledge just as much as Whittle did…
If you want to get a tiny bit more granular, even the Czech Air Force tried to make some use of the German turbojet, and the Me 262, but it was another waste of time, and they ended up using the British engine clone.
One thing is certain, if Whittle had been supported even a fraction of Von Ohain, Britain would have had a many years advantage, and a reliable turbojet, compared to the Germans, that would have kept that advantage for at least 15 years.
After all in 1945 a Meteor powered by Whittle’s turbojet was matching the performance of a Me 262, despite having gone through the infinite hurdles he had to endure. Whittle, and Griffith were both aware of the future of axial compressors in the last 1920s, years ahead of Von Ohain, and as I mentioned, Whittle had a sharp understanding of the future of aviation and a keep strategic vision, while Von Ohain was, at least initially, clueless.
Attributing the turbojet to Germany is wide overstatement, when in reality it was dictated by desperation and their usual propaganda.
Their engine, at the end of the war, was an operational joke (also because of materials).
If you think about it, even in today’s Formula1, the pinnacle of automotive engineering, Germans teams in order to win have to be virtual British teams.
They still have some brilliant minds when it comes to engineering, as they did 100 years ago.
Von Ohain at the end of the day, was also a bit of a smart cheater, and it took him years to finally admit he had access to Whittle’s work, and probably Griffith’s axial papers from 1926.
An unfortunate outcome of WWII was only half civilizations enemies lost the war, while aiding the Communist half was deemed necessary to save Europe in the short term.
The Left naturally greeted Russia legs akimbo and there was no mechanism to take the fight to the Leftist enemy in the relentlessly harsh manner used to resist Hitler.
The Western Left are to blame for Russian survival (Curtis LeMay had the wise idea of a nuclear decapitation strike) including the current tyranny.
The funny part? The Soviet Engineers had soft soled shoes that would stick the (Chips/Shavings) from the machining line from the "Tour" for analysis later at Mother Russia. Axial or Radial at the time would be Frank Whittle's Radial which is what went to the Russians. Ergo MIG-15 and Korea. To this day the Russians can't get this right.
this is simply false. a nonagression pact is very different from an alliance. the germans had already decided they would invade the USSR. and the USSR was simply waiting for the germans to do their schliefenplan 2.0
Britain milked its Anglo Saxon settled Commonwealth Daughter countries thru war and peace.When the UK signed up with the EEC ,Westminister coldly moved away from Commonwealth Preference and accepted Brussels dictates,which set drastic reductions in foodstuffs et al previously imported from the loyal family over the seas.I would claim the damage done to these immature trading partners far exceeded the release to enemies of a turbo jet engine design that had limited potential in the long run. In fact ,a whole generation in these previously dependent economies found themselves with a falling standard of living and even current social disintegration ,and a low GDP and economic ratings that might be slated back to a grossly ungrateful decision to leave Australia ,Canada S.Africa and tiny economy NZ adrift in the trading world.Strangely,post Brekit,the UK is making earnest overtures to old Commonwealth acquaintances to enter into new trading alliances.But is Blood actually Thicker than Water?
Bureaucrats
As usual making a mess of whatever they do. Till this day
800 MIG-s destroyed . Inpressive . All you have to do is to give us information on how many planes the opposite side have lost and the picture will be complete .
Theory: Others stole every thing from us😂
Us who? Can you elaborate?
But both the US and USSR took many German scientists but the Sovjets let them go in 1954.
Russians always copied from west but have more advanced ones..😂😂😂
my information says sir Staford Crips gave the jet to ussr there for is a trator = to the other trators lokated in the fiftys ttfn&ty
Sure, Russia didn't need to copy it because first they had themselves developed the turbo compressed jet motor, so they didn't start from scratch, they had them in the Korean war already, and then they certainly get blueprints in Germany in WW2...
They tried to reverse engineer the German Jumo engines, but they run into the same impairing issues that Germans had.
The only other country that was interested in those engines was France, but despite gathering 120 (ex) Nazi engineers, it took them forever to make those engines work, and to do so they had to radically modify them with the very same people that made them. They also needed external help to do so (a U.S. company).
The Soviets simply discarded all German variants (I believe at least two), and simply copied the British turbojet, the famous Nene, which was given to them in a few units with the stipulation they would not copy it.
The Soviets had previously cloned the legendary B-29, so it was not something they were not already doing, and they also kept doing it by later stealing, just as a reminder, over 90,000 documents pertaining the Concorde.
The British engine served them well, as they also sold those engines (without license of course), to several other countries, including China.
The formidable MiG15 was powered by a stolen British engine, not by a Russian one, like it or not. You can easily verify that information, as it is very well documented.
Everyone has copied , stolen something or the other from someone else .
no one to say that Jet technology was stolen from Germany 😂
Because it was not. Not only the turbojet is a British invention (Whittle, April 1937j, but Britain had been working on both axial and centrifugal turbojets since the late 1920s.
The German turbojet was universally ignored with the exception of the French.
After the war they assembled 120 Nazi engineers (ex of course), but it took them 8 years and radical modifications to make them work properly. They also required help from a U.S. company…
Do not mistake late 1944 desperate German propaganda with proper engineering.
You might want to start with Griffith in 1926 and his seminal paper on axial compressors. He was also,the same person that delayed Whittle by over 6 years (conflict of interests?).
If you are not convinced yet, I urge you to watch Von Ohain’s never seen before interviews that we published on the channel.
Your description of the aircraft that Russia received is nonsense
You mean the turbojet?
@@Dronescapes no under lend lease.
What dit Germany gave the world? The first !!!! jet engine.😂😂😂
Not at all, Germany gave us the first test aircraft that flew with a turbojet in 1939, and even by 1944 they could still not make a properly operational one. The Jumo turbojet was a disaster.
As for who made the first turbojet, that was Sir Frank Whittle in April 1937, and that is the engine that the Soviets copied after discarding all variants of the German turbojets, as did everyone else, except the French, who spent 8 years radically modifying them to make them operationally OK, and the people doing the work were 120 ex Nazi engineers. Britain had started working on both axial and centrifugal turbojets since the late 1920s, but they were smart enough not to deploy such a novel technology during WW2.
By the way, the first 1939 flight (Heinkel He 178) was mixed powered, also incorporating Whittle’s invention, and the German engineer, Von Ohain, had access to Whittle work which had been copied and distributed across German universities.
Von Ohain recognized Whittle as the true inventor of the turbojet in his own book…
There is plenty documentation on the subject, you just need to learn it, or listen to their words.
Sorry, the turbojet was very much a British invention.