Revisiting a Christian rock star’s deconversion
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2022
- In this episode Trent catches up with Jon Steingard, the former front man for the Christian band Hawk Nelson who has since left the Christian faith and discusses his continuing investigation of Christianity.
To support this channel: / counseloftrent
Very cool to hear this as a former Evangelical worship leader (raised Catholic, ran after relationship not religion because it felt much easier and modern) and have since returned to Rome. There's a lot of bad theology in evangelical music. It's a very specific kind of hypnotic type of music that basically works on emotions rather than expressing any theology.
Do you attend the traditional Mass or the "modern" Mass now? A lot of us feel there is too much Protestant influence in the Novus Ordo rite.
@@anng.4542 That may happen in some US or European parishes. But in Asia and Africa, the NO is mostly reverent. There are many conversions to Catholicism else they would have fallen to Protestant heresies.
My parish has monthly Holy Hour, parish level rosary and Flame of Love rosary, Padre Pio devotion, Oct month rosary procession, weekly divine mercy, praying the St Michael's prayer in every Mass. We had 45 baptised from RCIA last year. When the assistant parish priest met with a serious accident, 1000 parishioners turned up to pray the rosary for him over a month. The parish is made up of 5000 parishioners and 100% NO.
@@tony1685 of course he did. But just that he doesn't subscribe to your heretical interpretation of scriptures.
@@tony1685 any interpretation inconsistent with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles is heretical. Your version doesn't. So you are a heretic.
@Ann I grew up in the Novus Ordo and often wondered about singing songs with lyrics like “Now, we recreate your love, we bring the bread and wine to share a meal, sign of grace and mercy…” affect belief in the Real Presence. How
Could it not?
"10,000 difficulties do not make one doubt."
--Saint John Henry Newman
@Counsel of Trent, please see if you can do more of these roundtables. I'm not positive, but this could be your best episode yet. . .although your rebuttals are darn good.
“Complex ideas don’t sing well”
Meanwhile…
Thomas Aquinas composing Oh Salutaris Hostia…
I think the answer is to sing in Latin.
“I feel God should be”
The root of every lack of belief
Along with ideas like, "But the Church needs to change with the times," and "Well, if THAT'S what the people want..."
Reading over these three ideas, they sound like slyly modernized versions of "Did God REALLY say...?"
Exactly. This is what I explain to people. I came back not because I thought God should be a certain way, but because he IS a certain way.
@@anng.4542 exactly. God never changes. I’m trying to explain that to a new coming Catholic, she’s in RCIA, and I’m going to be her sponsor. I really want to get that in her head. There’s a reason she’s coming here, and she doesn’t understand it yet, but it is because she realizes underneath it all that God doesn’t change, and it just seems intuitively wrong for a church to change when it claims to follow the one true God.
Burden of proof is on you 🤷🏻♂️. The believers are the ones who state properties of God that both contradict each other and make no sense when juxtaposed with reality. And then retreat to Divine Skepticism when faced with difficult questions.
@@FaptainCalcon750 I've never encountered a difficult question from a nonbeliever related to Christianity.
First time I went to mass (a few weeks ago) referring to Christ as King just seemed to click. It's hard to explain. It's the history, liturgy, tradition, alter, Christ crucified front and center, the eucharist, the ritual, etc. It may sound silly but I felt transported in time and I realized it couldn't just be a story, but if you are to really believe, then Jesus is your King, he died and resurrected and will lead his people to his eternal kingdom
Amen glory to God, the Eucharist is truly Jesus’s flesh and blood. It’s in scripture! God makes this plain to us through his Eucharistic miracles as well.
Prayer and fasting my friends. Mark a day on your calendar to pray and fast for the conversion of Jon Steingard and for the Lord's will to be done.
You gon be hungry for no reason 🤦🏼♂️😂
Excellent point Trent! Protestants and Roman Catholics in far too many cases have been very poorly catechized.
A lot of times it’s not the catechism, they just fully reject what they’ve learned, even though they’ve been taught well. And that is even worse, tho.
@Nt Mt I went to Catholic school second grade to college, and there is A LOT I leaned in the last five years I never knew. And as little as I knew, my Catholic friends who went to public school know even less.
@@tony1685 wow you have the uneducated view of Catholicism
Ten Commandments are taught.
Catholics do not worship idols or saints. Catholics do ask saints to intercede for them with God, ie we ask them to pray for us.
Protestants ask lay people to pray for them all the time … so it’s hypocritical to tell Catholics not to ask saints to pray to them given those saints were the best Christian’s who earned sainthood by exemplifying a life that honoured God
Jews worshipped on Saturday their sabbath day. But the first Christian’s worshipped on Sunday. In fact Jesus was admonished for working on the Jewish sabbath to which he responded he was the lord of the sabbath.
[Mt. 12:1-8; Mk. 2:24-26; Lk. 6:1-5] “Now that day was a Sabbath. So the Jews said to the man who had been cured, ‘It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your mat.’ But he answered them, ‘The man who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your matt and walk.’” [John 5:10-11]
“Then He (Jesus) said to them, ‘The Son of Man (Jesus) is lord of the Sabbath.” [Lk. 6:5] Therefore, it is up to Jesus to determine what can and what cannot be done on the Sabbath.
Paul informed the Colossians that they should not be disturbed by those who condemn them for observing the Sabbath. “Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink, or of observing festivals, new moons, or Sabbaths.” [Colossians 2:16-17]
Christ rose on the 3rd day, Sunday. Catholic worship on Sunday is based on traditions of the first Christian’s as well as recognizing it as the day Christ rose from the dead.
@@tony1685 If you continue in Seventh Day Adventism, then you are not a Christian and are a heretic.
@@tony1685 Your heretical "church" goes against Scripture and is full of heresy.
More broadly speaking, I think it’s really sad that we aren’t taught philosophy (and by extension theology) in our public education. It should be required as much as math, science, history, etc.
Nope. In France, I had 7 hours of philosophy / week my last year of high school. Hardly any theology and it was belittled (the description of Pascal's wager..... oh my...) Heavily slanted towards Camus and Sartre. And what was taught just had to be learned by heart, nothing intellectual. Very disappointing.
@@nerdanalog1707 That just seems like a problem with the curriculum, though. Sort of like our curriculum here in the US in general. Look, I get it. But it was reading Plato and Aristotle, Augustine and Boethius and Aquinas that opened up my eyes to Christianity (and Catholicism in particular).
@@bookishbrendan8875 It can be a problem of the curriculum and / or the teacher. Frankly, I have found Sartre & Camus to be quite damaging in my life.
I understand that philosophy can also elevate.
I would be very careful though if wanting to promote this subject in high schools...
@@derek4412 lol yes I agree with you, but it would be difficult to justify a course entitled Philosophy and not teach the full spectrum of it.
Philosophy courses, when taught, especially to young people, ought to be carefully thought out. Otherwise, it can indeed lead to or worsen depression.
I think it is funny when people say that God would make his public revelation more public if he were real, then on the matter of the resurrection they say people don’t come back from the dead. Yeah, that’s the point.
God would have to do something impossible for them to believe, but they do not believe the impossible can happen so if he does it they do not believe.
@Juice
Spot on. We can look at the passage of Abraham speaking to the rich man, akin to: "If they do not believe Moses, then neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."
@@tony1685
His Word, The Word, built His Church.
Ask the Word of God to help your unbelief, for you do believe in Him, I know you do.
@@AJKPenguin Actually, If I saw someone get crushed under a tank, and they magically come back together and rose from the dead, then at least that's some evidence that a God may be real.
We currently have no evidence, so there's no reason to believe.
@@CalebScott1991 “We currently have no evidence” while you define what evidence for God is. Your issue is circular and stubborn to the reality that is around you. You have consciousness and yet you have 0 way of proving that in any verifiable way. It is a brute fact.
Without God, you are bound to doubting even your own consciousness. If there is no consciousness behind what is outside, you have no reference point of certainty to know anything, including your own consciousness.
But this view refutes your own position: because you need to have some form of foundation to believe even doubting your own consciousness.
The root of all of this is unbelief.
@@brianbachinger6357 nah I'm still correct. If you have evidence, please provide it, but let's face it, you have none.
I love the honesty of this conversation. It's important to be open-minded and really listen to people's stories, and not make quick judgments + assumptions. Thanks for this dialogue!!!
I'm so impressed by how Trent showed so much kindness to someone who no longer believes in God. Trent, you're awesome!
He is used to talking to people who dont understand theology but try to make a statement about their belief and the faith.
Why is that something impressive?
@@LandonMetochoi You're right, in a way it shouldn't be impressive, but these days it seems fairly rare.
How could Paul have had a bereavement hallucination? Paul did not know Jesus personally when he was alive.
Whoever said that the longest journey one can go on is from head to heart is absolutely right. We can definitely over think our way out of faith and a sense of peace. I am wondering if deconversion is more a product of burnout with the music industry.
Please have a continuation of this brilliant conversation.
Loved this conversation! Hope a longer one takes place soon
This was a good chat. You should be glad you squeeze the time for this, Trent. Surely benefitted many of us.
I’m praying for him and I hope he gives Catholicism a look. His song Drops In The Ocean is reminiscent of St Faustina who wrote of God’s Divine Mercy.
@@tony1685 funny, the Catholic Church gave you the whole New Testament and wrote the Index of the Bible. John Henry Cardinal Newman once said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."
@@tony1685 thanks Tony. Why would you assume I don’t read the Word of God? Catholicism is completely rooted in Scripture. The Holy Bible was assembled by the early Church which was the universal Church and had existed for several hundred years before the Bible was compiled. Catholic means universal. It sounds to me that you have issues with Catholicism, perhaps misunderstanding, perhaps upbringing, i don’t really know. but i hope you can sincerely and openly ask questions if you really want to know. God Bless you, Brother.
@@gk7754 thanks GK. i figured as much as he’s commenting on various other threads. It must be Christ-like to pick fights with Catholics on a Catholic youtube channel. lol
@@tony1685 Who closed the Bible canon? Which came first, the Church or the Bible?
@@tony1685 The Word =/= The Bible; the Word is the Logos/Jesus, who existed before the creation of time, and became the Word made flesh.
This was such a good conversation
I love how you engage in conversation
There is no such thing as deconversion. You always convert to an ideology. From Christianity, you convert to modern secular liberalism. You always have a system of beliefs because you are human.
Transversion?
I became a fascist when I was 6 years old in order to replace my belief in Santa Claus.
@@onionbelly_ Good point, paralleling belief in God like belief in Santa Claus; just a superfluous addition to a meaningless cosmos.
Reversion?
Yeah I don’t understand when atheists say that either. No where in the church do they talk about deconversion it’s is always you lost faith and you work on your relationship with God or you don’t but there is no deconvert option. Once you’re baptized you’re baptized.
I like that you bright up the Byzantine hymns, because I was thinking about how at our Melkite parish their is no struggle singing about the Theotokos and the undivided trinity etc. It’s very effective!
Wish I could thumbs this up X 1000.
Great conversation thank you
Hawk Nelson came up in my Spotfy shuffle yesterday, and I thought about this guy and your discussion with him. Weird!
Odd ways of Providence : )
One thing I like about this conversation is that you didn't come to a complete resolution. I think it's good to show that you're probably not going to convince people 100% the first time you talk with them (or even the second or third &c.).
You will eventually get stuck, as you'd require some sort of good reason or evidence to give if you want anyone to truly believe in the supernatural when they don't.
nice talk. tnx.
Hey Trent, Can you comment about brother Diamonds rebuttal to your rebuttal. I am having a difficult time discerning who I should listen to as his argument seems to make sense. But I'm not sure.
So he thinks the informality of Evangelical Christianity was off? I think Trent might be able to help there! Great plug for the Byzantine Catholic Church. That guy will see the most formal of churches in action!
16:58 to your point about bad equating to lack, I noticed this in my own journey to theism and eventually Christianity. Lies are just a lack of Truth, not an equally powerful opposite force and same with all other examples I could see. Also, one thing I had learned in counselling children is that children "act out" in bad ways due to the lack of a need being met, be that love, attention, resources, socialisation, or discipline etc. Now I'm not sure if that ties in perfectly with original sin or not but it is a strong observation in psychology.
3:07 Relationship without Religion equals Relativism, Christianity made to order or in my own image and likeness apart from the Apostolic Church.
@@tony1685 you’re trying so hard but with each comment you make you continue to expose your ignorance
Without an Apostolic church you wouldn't be able to quote The Gospel of John
@@tony1685 What is Christianity then? Who is a Christian?
@@tony1685 John 14:15 This is a commandment given by Christ to each individual. How does this prove that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is wrong?
@@tony1685 That’s a broad definition that would literally include Protestants, Catholics, Mormans, and Jehovah Witnesses. Under that definition certain certain Jewish people would be considered Christians. Try again!
Great vid
I appreciate the discussion. I kept on thinking John was channelling Valley Girl vibes.
I agree. seemed very odd. it seems he might be gay and has left the faith because of it
Same
Will you be debating Peter Dimond?
I love Trent Horn and I feel so blessed with him and his knowledge. I don’t think I’ve ever missed anything of his, whether it’s a debate, answering questions, or the Counsel of Trent. But this particular interview, I just had to turn it off. The amount of “likes”coming out of that mature man was just too annoying. He talks like a young teenager. I’m not trying to be mean, I just think something like this needs to be addressed because I know I’m not alone. Language, speech, grammar are important in public discourse, especially if you want more listeners. Prayers for his reversion.
This says infinitely more about you than him
@@chezjowy8596 I hope so.
@@chezjowy8596 yeah lol this person is way too anal
Trent, could you respond the the recent Cross Examined video where Turek criticizes Catholic prayers?
he has some nerve, sheesh
I think this is a 'want to break free' type of event for church boyz who realise how monitored and controoled they are, but see how they can get out of it having tasted more freedom
Philosopher Mortimer Adler wrote that belief in God’s existence is a separate question from who God is (His nature). God’s existence is reasonable; His goodness is a leap of faith. We could not know about God without revelation.
I wonder what jons family and friends say and feel about his deconversion and further study
Best "proof" that Jesus is God. 11 of the 12 Apostles died brutal deaths directly related to their arduous lifelong pursuit to spread the Gospel and give up everything else. That doesn't happen with false religions.
Also, if this was some sort of "bereavement hallucination" it obviously would not have affected all the Apostles, nor would they have been all willing to preach the Gospel in far off lands, in dangerous situations, giving up all they had in terms of property, relationships, and comfort if that had been the case.
The problem with this guy is his basis for truth is how 'he feels' about the idea. Reason leads to truth, not feelings.
@@tony1685 interesting. You are using the Scripture proclaimed as Scripture by the RCC as proof that the RCC is wrong. You should start a TH-cam channel to further elaborate on your circular logic.
False. We do not know how many, if any, were martyred.
@@davidpinheiro9650 no we do. Historical evidence for most of their deaths.
The nature of God can be seen in his creation…this is infinitely profound once you understand “things are signs”…Peter Kreeft does an awesome job with this concept. His work with this concept in the priesthood is infused with this understanding and utterly convincing….Romans 1
Most religions use "Things are signs" and they use it to confirm that their specific religion is therefore clearly the correct one. In reality, it is a complete lack of evidence for all of them.
@@CalebScott1991 not in the way you are thinking…the essence of “things” not the nature of things…
-God created the universe from the “outside”…He is not “of” His creation…(monotheism)
- a man creates life from outside of the women…
God is male and we are female (Christ is the groom the church is the bride)
Nature is Gods book about himself…why else would he create it this way?
@@CalebScott1991 th-cam.com/video/kgou9QDR4KM/w-d-xo.html
@@ajfiest There's no reason to think a god even exists, let alone that it created everything.
@@CalebScott1991 I’m pretty sure that you have to define “reason” before you make that statement…and I think that you mean “scientific reason”…which is like trying to find an author in his book.
Interesting comment about simple ideas singing better. What a Beautiful Name by Hillsong actually takes some of that richer language from Colossians 1 and makes it singable. But I get what Jonathan was saying in general, doesn’t me we shouldn’t try to put deep truth into contemporary worship music. It can and has been done well, just not as frequently
I have a little hangup on the idea of "Media is the message" - or "the format controls the content". Translated to our current situation that means that contemporary worship music is supposed to be easy to sing along, rather repetetive and rather contemplative. All of this goes against compex content. Hymns of the past, we just have to go 50-60 years back, was of course much more complex in content.
20:00 This is why argument only gives permission to experiment with engaging God and experiencing God and seeing what source affirms this the most. The Bible was the last source I wanted to be true but I experienced God emphatically guide me to it in a way only I should be convinced of because it happened in my subjective experience deeper than words can communicate. So keep praying, or try talk to Truth/Love - the words we use to refer to what holds all reality together beyond our capacity to grasp.
Trent in case you were not aware, AA is not something that you hope to eventually get out of. The AA program is designed so that you are supposed to keep going ideally for the rest of your life
Thats sad
For some
I would say that is the power of addiction, for some addiction will need to be battled for a lifetime because they are more easily susceptible to falling right back in then others.
@@danielpascoe4287 not sure if you were replying to my comment or the one above but actually no it’s supposed to be for everyone who goes not just some. If they actually are an alcoholic/addict the program assumes it will be a lifelong thing. If you go to an AA meeting a lot of the leaders will have been in the program for 40, 50, etc. years. I think it’s a great program though. It gives a community to people and is really a good thing that works. I’ve had a lot of experience with it through some family members
Just tuned in and heard Trent, say dork I've heard that word a lot is it the American version of our English word pillock
Pillock sounds classy. ; )
If you're asking the meaning, a dork is someone who's goofy and not hip/cool. It has an affectionate connotation and not a cruel or mean one. For example, a girl might tell her best friend who just said something silly, "You're such a dork!" (It's more of a female word than a male word.)
Such an interesting conversation! In India, most young people have rejected God, but that would be the Hindu "god" they've rejected. Many are theists, like Jon, who are looking for good enough reasons to believe Jesus.
why were the bugs only bothering Trent?
The thumbnail doesn't represent the interview.🤔
Remember the Apostles were done after the Crucifixion, they thought they were next so they were contemplating leaving town or going back to there old lives. It was only after the appearance of Jesus they believed, so then after Pentecost they preached the resurrection in the streets, which lead to there own martyrdom. My point is this, you don't die for something you know isn't true. People do die for something they BELIEVE to be true, but you don't die for something you KNOW isn't true.
A good book to read on the subject is
Who Moved the Stone by Frank Morrison written back in the 1930s, he wanted to disprove the resurrection, the evidence proved to the contrary
"There's a lizard essence over there."
There are far more ancient manuscripts of the eyewitness to the Gospel than any other historical text. With less than 2% discrepancy between the texts and zero on any matters related to the faith. So it seems a bit hypocritical to call the reliability of the Gospels into question, and not question the reliability of everything else. Did Plato really say the things we attribute to him? Aristotle? Shakespeare? How many original documents do we have from those authors?? Zero. If you weren’t around to see it, everything, and I mean literally everything, comes down to what someone wrote.
The point made at 18:29 is exactly the argument that @jaydyer made in their debate. Natural theology doesn’t point you to the Trinitarian God. Trent seems to concede that here.
So either you aren’t real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I’ll never know
Either way my heart is broken
As I say, goodbye for now
This was really interesting and seems like a good guy. I think my perspective as a Catholic and his differ mostly in his view of scripture and it being the word of god. (Talks about it at 19:30 to about 21:15) He doesn’t trust the bible because i think that his understanding of it has been formed poorly by the protestant thinking of it. When he mentions that “Christians might have put it together and claimed it is the word of God so they can have something concrete” i think he is disagreeing with himself at one point. Because he seems to also believe that the bible is a collection of books written by humans over the course of time. (Which is true, and it is inspired by God) And this is the key i think, because if he believes that the books of the bible were written in the time periods we believe that each of them was written in, then what we have in the books of the bible is something that was undeniably written by groups of people throughout time.
Since this is the case, we can know that the bible is divinely inspired because of its contents. The Old Testament ACCURATELY prophesied what was to come in the New Testament, and it did it in a way that was hidden to man. As far back as Genesis 2 we hear of “the tree of life” and little did we know this was a true foreshadowing of Jesus becoming the tree of life in hanging on the cross. The Old Testament has to be the word of God because Adam, Moses, Aaron, the judges, King David, the passover lamb, psalm 53, psalm 22, and essentially the entire Old Testament are prefigurements of who Jesus is. How could books inspired by humans prophesy correctly what was to come? God proves the bible to be divinely inspired and His work the brilliance of the Old Testament being revealed in Jesus Christ. The depth of scripture is not something that humans across thousands of years could ever accomplish.
Just think of how the tree of life in Genesis 2, Noah’s Ark, the Passover lamb, the bread of the face, bread of the presence, Mana, story of Abraham offering up his only begotten son Isaac, Moses and the bronze serpent, The rock at Mariba, and so many more stories of the Old Testament foretold the story of Jesus’s passion and death. I think it is only by God that we have a bible which prophesied correctly and revealed itself so amazingly.
Not only that but the book of Daniel accurately foretold the conquer of Alexander the great(look it up, atheist historians think the book was written afterward because it was so accurate) and with the books that have been handed down to us people have a hard time even arguing that Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, they think it’s easier to argue he just wasn’t God.
Overall, hope that makes sense. It was hard to convey my thoughts but if you know the scriptures you will know the unbelievable book it is that God gave us
@@EPH-re2xj here is what i think:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself.
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
@@EPH-re2xj i am not following. So all you think you have to do to be saved is believe in the gospel?
What was the Old Testament prophecy that came to pass as prophesied?
@@davidpinheiro9650 there are alot of them, the ones i mentioned were Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 which were both written prior to Jesus’s passion and death. The psalm was written by King David and is quoted by Jesus on the cross when He says “My god my god, why have you forsaken me?” So if you read both of those they describe Jesus’s passion. There are alot more, such as Abraham and Isaac. Also the story of Joseph and his 12 brothers. Joseph is sold and betrayed at the price of 20 silver pieces, with The brother Judah leading the way (Jesus later is betrayed for 20 silver pieces, and it is done by Judas). If you read the whole story there is many many things like this that point to it being a foreshadowing of Jesus
@@luke9747 Just because Matthew mentions Psalm 22 does not mean that it is a prophetic psalm. Anyone can write such a psalm when faced with a situation of suffering. That's what King David did. He doesn't find any fulfilled prophecy, other than reverse engineering, which doesn't count.
As for Isaiah 53, who are the strong ones with whom the servant will divide the spoil?
Matthew has already accustomed us to taking Old Testament passages out of context and giving them a meaning they never had ("out of Egypt have I called my son").
You see prophecies everywhere.
I see a lots of reverse engineering and lots of unfulfilled prophecies:
A king who would bring peace to Israel. A world full of the knowledge of God in which it is not even necessary to evangelize.
And why not deal with Fatima miracles, or other with many witnesses ? or Padre Pio ? They're closer and to the point it seems to me, as they are even tangible. Great conversation !
There is always the Shroud of Turin to unpack as physical evidence of Jesus’ resurrection.
Sitting in a beautiful setting in the California sunshine, enjoying the company and uttering "the universe feels indifferent".....wow. It's almost nonsensical...you don't really *feel* this.
Ironic how that same sunshine can give you skin cancer. Do you know what indifference is? In what way is the universe not indifferent? As far as the natural world is concerned, it continues with or without human flourishing. That is true regardless of theism or atheism. Only God could step in and prevent the eventual extinction of humanity. Sounds like the universe is quite indifferent to me.
John is a wildly open minded guy.
@@tony1685 give me proof that Christians have kept the sabbath for the last 2000 years
@@tony1685 God bless you. And good luck!
He really doesn’t seem that open minded here, he seems like he moreso wants to advance his arguments against Christianity in this conversation rather than really understand anything Trent says
What does "open minded" mean? Is it even possible to be "open minded"?
@@tony1685 why haven't you replied to me, I see you replied to other people
What's with the lisp?
Is there a correlation?
Lol, that's not a lisp. But even if it was, yes, there's a correlation between that and a thing called 'The Fall', wherein humans are no longer physically perfect.
@@Mic1904 just so happens the lisp is related to a specific fall.
@@mike-cc3dd Can't wait to hear the scholarly robust theology behind this one...
I don't know much about the debates surrounding God's existence, in terms of the arguments and relevant personalities. When it comes to these debates, what is the role of mere theism? Surely it's not a goal in and of itself. Steingard seems to feel like mere theism is plausible but, to me, the question is what to do with it. If you can prove that a god exists, but this god is utterly unknowable, then so what? Seems like winning the most pointless battle ever.
Looks like someone's been watching Paulogia. Also, I simply dont get what is controversial about consciousness and physicalism. The mind is to the brain as software is to computers.
Trent: Could you watch Infographics video of St. Mother Theresa, and come with a rebuttal on this? The way they portray her is disgusting and dishonest.
God bless!
plot twist: the mosquito was Jay Dyer
26:54 “when your mind is open to more then material, then it makes it more plausible that there is something supremely immaterial that is the foundation of everything” ok you lost me… what does that even mean and how would we tell material from immaterial? If we can’t define immaterial then what would supreme immaterial be vs non supreme immaterial? This is the problem once you let your mind open then the brain just falls out anything goes.
Interesting discussion. I think a logical way of believing in Christianity is to start with the Old Testament and the chosen people. Study about that and it brings one to the New Testament and the fulfillment of the savior. Jesus. If one understands that the early Jews (apostles) got this connection from the their 1000 years of tradition it’s easier to think it’s not a fantasy. Way to many prophecies fulfilled over many years. My two cents.
I'm gonna be really blunt but try not to be accusatory, just voicing a curiosity.
This guy has that way of speaking that I've only ever seen homosexual or closeted homosexual men have. The 'gay' accent.
Has anyone ever asked him if on a conscious or semi-unconscious level he's leaving his faith because he can't reconcile his sexuality with Christian teaching? It just seems like an obvious thing to me, and I can't help but wonder.
This sounds like a way to dismiss his reasons for leaving the faith. Why not just take him at his word? He left because he doesn’t think the answers to the problems within Christianity are satisfactory. You can disagree, but at least accept that he simply doesn’t agree with you. Too often I see people try to explain why someone left. Usually along the lines of “you just wanted to sin”. Just be charitable and take them at their word for why they left.
You are such a goober, Trent.
Doesn’t sing well? I ardently disagree!
I’m a Catholic looking for contemporary Christian music that is well written, grounded in Catholic theology with thought provoking lyrics, but all too often left hanging dry.
There are secular bands out there like Nightwish (as one example) who orchestrate Darwinian thought into beautiful music with thought provoking lyrics. If Christian song writers, particularly Catholic ones, don’t break away from the vanilla tripe found playing on the contemporary gospel stations and do the same for Christian faith as Nightwish does for Darwinism, it seems to me that it is due to a lack of talent, or a lack of will.
What was the point of this interview…?
I think it's going to be the first of a series... basically to help Catholics get into the mind of someone who literally has no assumptions about the supernatural, and seeing how far simple logical persuasion can go towards the Catholic faith when you're starting from scratch. I think it'll be an interesting philosophical discussion. This guy strikes me as open-minded, so it looks like this one could go anywhere.
@@jamesleman3339 I believe Trent can better to enlighten minds by interviewing interesting people; An effeminate, ex-protestant turned agnostic does not appear to be a “philosophical” discussion worth noting.
like...like...like
Ora Pro Nobis...
In a recent video, the traditionalist Catholic, brother Dimond, challenged Trent Horn to a one-on-one debate. Will Mr Horn accept his challenge? Stay tuned.
Akathist hymn>pop music
First!!!
Congratulation! You Made it! 🎉🎉🎉
Btw: first to congratulate you for being the first!!
Nice!!! You did it
No Waaaayyyyyyyyyyy!
@@nicolasramirez3944 indeed! He's the one!
Who is the interviewer and who is the interviewee?
Almost the same speech times. Few questions. Attempt to proselytize. A lot of bullshit philosophy. Make recommendations to the "interviewee". Etc...