Dropped Frames, Special Edition (Part 2) - Streaming as a Female
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ส.ค. 2024
- Part 2 can be found at • Dropped Frames, Specia...
Dropped Frames is a show featuring hosts itmeJP, Ezekiel_III and CohhCarnage where they discuss the ongoings of being a full-time streamer.
This is a special episode with @ShannonZKiller @lolrenaynay @kaceytron and @dexteritybonus
@lolrenaynay at / lolrenaynay
@dexbonus at / dexteritybonus
@kaceytron at / kaceytron
Feel free to drop feedback in the comments or jump into the discussion every Wednesday at 3:00 PM Eastern!
Good watch. The gaming community would be in a much better place right now if more people just sat down and talked about these issues rather than trying to place the blame on someone.
***** Thing is that when money is involved all of that goes flying out the window, such is life though sadly. :/
IGankNP but what you don't understand is that Money is given freely by those viewers. Its the community the we should be discussing, not the streamers themselves. Even if all the Females streamers start wearing only bikinis on stream, its the viewers decisions to go to those streams, not the streamers.
I don't think you read the comment I was commenting on i'm saying that twitch won't change the rules if they're making money...
IGankNP I now understand what you are saying. But still Twitch doesn't have to change the rules right, who are they hurting really by wearing provocative clothing.
***** I mean i'm not saying wear what others say to wear i'm saying the face cam should be on your face. Couldn't careless what they wear, be naked if you were allowed as long as the face cam is on the face. That's my big issue.
I can't help but feel like all four of these girls missed a point in Sky's video that pretty much made the video. He talked about earning respect or losing respect. He didn't say anyone was ruining Twitch, you're quoting someone else on that. He said that tit cam streamers ruin Twitch for female gamers/streamers just the same as the media does to young girls/boys when it comes to promoting sexuality.
It all should come down to the fact that Twitch is a business wether people want to admit it or not. You grow through networking, you are there to entertain, you are there to earn money and you are there to socialize. When we try to grow and earn more respect for women amongst the workplace we do look down upon (both men and women) ANYONE who dresses in revealing clothing. Its inappropriate and unless that's the place of business.
And you guys are lying to yourselves if you think cleavage doesn't bring in traffic or help you keep viewers. They do...it does happen. I'm all for supporting your own kind. Females do attack each other for a bunch of reasons and jealousy is one of the most common sins, but we should also support each other when it comes to fighting for respect.
What video are you referring to?
shadecrawler Sky's like I said
People always have a choice, and if a streamer's going to make more money by promoting sexuality - then respect for said streamer should take a hit because of it.
Also wearing revealing clothing and embracing the "dumb blonde" stereotype is not satire, if there is a female Twitch streamer out there that does ACTUAL satire then it would be much easier to tell the difference.
MoonLiteWolfPro could you link it?
MoonLiteWolfPro "He didn't say anyone was ruining Twitch" - "He said that tit cam streamers ruin Twitch". Not trying to argue what Sky did mean, he'll likely clarify that for himself anyways. I just wanted to point out the semantic issue you accidentally made which impedes the communication of your point.
These comments are going to be so nice and totally productive
*Fingers crossed*
I see what you did there ;)
i loled
How ironic yours is also like that.
Cassandra Campbell This is one of the only ones that isn't :)
Am I the only person that gets mentally exhausted just thinking about this problem? I just end find myself saying something like, "Fuck it. Just stream the way you want and if you can't put up with/stop the backlash then it isn't for you.".
+Cameron McCullough THIS.
Dodger isn't burping and isn't saying fuck and shit repeatedly.
0/10 would not watch again.
she also wasn't eating anything throughout the stream... What robot did they swap her out for???
darkJman77 Yea who are they trying to fool!
As a guy trying to understand women's issues, such calm and thoughtful discussion from a female perspective is a breath of fresh air. A lot of feminist messages are either emotionally-laden or terse, and it's hard to pick apart the points being made. Hearing you all talk about your experiences, how you felt about things and what you'd like to see, really cleared things up. Maybe some of it should've been obvious to me, but I understand better by hearing about your actual experiences instead of just being told to "treat people like people", as much as I agree with that. And understanding feels really good.
I facepalmed really hard when i heard dodger talking about how she was saying how she hated the other girls and thought they were stupid to get accepted, and then suddenly everyone agreeing that it was internalized misogyny.
I won't try to act like i know more about your experience, but in my opinion... I don't think they asked you to hate other women in general. I'll assume they were nerds, and were rejected and outcasted by girls with regular interests, so they put you on a pedestal for accepting them for what they liked and joining in, and you took advantage of that to gain social points.
And that's something we all do, regardless of gender. Nerdy guys will shit on sports jocks and vice versa. Do they have internalized misandry? Or is it just distancing yourself from a type of people to gain favour in another group?
Please stop acting like men who have the same ammount of agency as you, or probably less since they respected you as someone special, can somehow brainwash you into doing things. I think it's insulting to both men and women.
That's Feminism in action. You'd have as much luck shaking a born-again christian from their religion as any of these four from their ideology.
I never considered dodger to buy into the whole victimhood aspect of gender rights, though, since she's the antithesis of the disenfranchizement that women supposedly get systematically. A huge ammount of people follow her because she's charismatic and produces great content, and while i'm sure there are some trolls who go tits or gtfo, they are an unnoticeable minority.
Alexander Vladimir You can only really have conversations with the languages you know. If you hear that "people who eat chocolate are way more whiny than people who don't" for 15 years out of 20 years of your life, when you have a conversation about growing beyond being a whiner, you're probably going to say that you gave up eating as much chocolate and pulled your pants up to get on with it, not realizing that it wasn't reducing chocolate intake that helped you get over the bad habit, but rather deciding to take initiative to change the trait/habit. I'm really not surprised that she attributes her feelings to internalized misogyny, because those are the tools of thought made most commonly available. I shunned a lot of social groups growing up. Hell, I put myself in different social categories because I didn't want to "be like that". If the only way for me to think of certain types of girls that I despised was, "Oh, it must have been internalized misogyny.", that's probably what I would say instead of, "Dude, those girls were some cold ass bitches who wore femininity like armor and made me feel very uncomfortable with displaying my own femininity so I wouldn't be perceived as being like them. It's not internalized misogyny, it's just *those* women in particular I don't like."Your points made would be so much easier to agree with if you kept in mind things like that. And even before attempting to understand other people, maybe phrasing things in a less acidic, accusatory way would help more. You know the phrase - honey vs vinegar - but you don't even have to be sweet. You use some loaded phrases there that even someone like me who was like, "Is that really internalized misogyny or were you just around some horrible girls you couldn't relate with?" made me go, "Wow. This person is an ass and I don't even want to finish reading the post." It's posts like this that make it difficult for people who want to agree with you to say so. *I* certainly don't want people to think I'm "like that".
Alexander Vladimir I agree with you, on just about everything, but it is it only to gain favour in another group? Maybe you just want to distance yourself from (a group of) people you can't stand. Also, what was their bullshit about women shouldn't be against each other? The hell they shouldn't. Men are in competition with each other, they can even be friends while being in competition with each other. Women though, are in a far more heated competition with each other for the same limited, dwindling resource: cock. Us men are the minority, yet more of us are born, more women are alive. Cannon fodder, used up as slave labor, less spending on men's health care, divorce court (during which male suicide rises from 4 out of 5 to 11 out of 12), etc. etc. has our numbers dwindling. And then there's the men who because of the previous facts, and the laws surrounding them, have decided that women aren't worth the risk and are avoiding them; a demographic that is growing constantly. Women are in competition with each other from birth; and the bullshit about "we shouldn't" is just another way of women doing their competition games; women rarely go directly head to head in fights or matches; they are masters of the social death by stabbing in the back, or getting other people to stab their competition for them. Appearing to be "all chummy" and getting to shame girls into social death who don't appear "all chummy" is one of the biggest weapons in their arsenal. All the women, hell feminists, because it is their rhetoric, who managed to convince you that' the way it's supposed to be girls; they played you; you're now in the crab basked for them to keep buried.
+Alexander Vladimir Agree.
Satire doesn't work if you don't make the distinction from your real persona. You can understand the character of Francis because the real Boogie is also present but the first impression is always the satirical persona. Avilo mentioned his character is a satire too yet how could you tell. It’s like sensing tone from text.
I remember the first time I watched her stream, and I understood pretty quickly what's it's about. People are just morons if they think she's being totally serious, not her problem.
But I don't like her stream because I prefer more chill streams with less chat spam.
Sensing tone from text... Tone in writing is a pretty basic concept, some do it better than others but if you just cant ever get a sense of tone in writing then that's a personal problem.
I'm pretty sure in the entire run of The Colbert Report he never once explicitly said it was satire, that is not how satire works, you don't ruin the immersion. Also, if you don't figure it out in the first couple minutes you're oblivious as fuck
yeah....that is not how satire works at all. I mean people can do what you said but it is not a requirement. It would be like watching a film with satire and it pausing every few minutes to tell its audience that "don't worry this isn't real" would ruin it. If you watch The Colbert Report and don't realize the satire.....I mean I've heard of people actually agreeing with his character's philosophy but it blows my mind.
joshsny143 that's because the colbert report was witty and creative, kaceytron is just completely unsubtle and crass, it's not even good satire.
Watched this live last night but I needed to come and like this because this was an INCREDIBLE discussion, I hope we get to see these ladies talk like this again in the future.
So, basically, kaceytron is the Colbert Report of female Twitch gamers. And people are totally buying into it.
Love it. I may have to start watching now.
I still think you ladies should have put on some fake beards. You know, to keep with the dress code of the show and all that jazz
Cue Shannon holding up bloody corpse of JP's beard
It's weird that that dodger doesn't have one. On co-optional podcast where she has been on of the three hosts for years, TB and Jesse always had beards. More of the guests had beards than didn't. And she never wore one. =(
***** This is a thing? I NEED TO SEE IT.
EternalDiarrhea It's on dexbonus channel I think it's called Coffeh with Crendor and it's pretty hilarious
Oh glob I keep forgetting to sub to that one... Thanks!
If feminism is about being who you are as a guy or a woman, then what is this crap about "male toxicity" all about!? The alienation of men is why I did a 180 on feminism.
It's just a difference in original meaning versus groups who have claimed the phrase for themselves over time. Originally all feminism stood for was equality between sexes and was labeled as that because of the tremendous inherent misogyny prevalent in society at that time. I mean don't get me wrong I consider myself a feminist in the OG context but women for the most part in the western world have access to the same rights and are protected by the same laws as men. The issue now is more a matter of the ingrained cultural biases they face. In a lot of ways it's the same as racism
Hans Power because feminism has become a religion and if you do not blindly agree to everything they say you are a heathen and misogynist or you are dumb and should inform yourself first (meaning shut up and go away till you think i am right). They are not open to logic, arguments or reasoning. Feminism has become what it once fought, or even worse.
First wave feminists are not even considered feminists anymore because they dont agree with the bullshit Anita Sarkeesian and co come up.
Also the word you are searching for is egalitarian.
www.google.at/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=egalitarian%20definition
Ashton Ramjee You put it very well I think but since Anita S and friends became such popular names in feminism the meaning changed into something way more extreme with very obscure propagandistic justifications. That absolutely kills it for me and goes way beyond the original feminism and it's why I can't identify with the term, anymore. If anything I'd say I'm an equalist.
It's Sturgeon's law - 90% of everything is shit. Even feminism.
But that being said, I actually think that Anita Sarkeesian is very much on the more sensible side of the feminism spectrum (I have a sociology degree, I've seen the bad kind - believe me, it isn't pretty). I personally just don't like her action plan, it doesn't look like something that would work.
Johann Ludwig Edel Egalitarian it is, then. I was indeed struggling for the correct term.
Shannon is an awesome host! And I love how this was an extremely wellspoken discussion through and through.
im so happy that you did this. This is something many gamers should watch.
Absolutely great. Had a good time, a laugh and learnt something. Thank you very much.
Hopefully one day we learn to blame assholes for being assholes, not blame the people they are being assholes to. Never understood why we try to correct the people who are being wrongly attacked and not the people who are attacking.
Because the internet is full of unsupervised children with no moral compass. That's why.
Ian Roper Many of them being legally adults makes it even sadder.
Aulis Vaara There are plenty of us gamers out there who don't act like complete shit. The behaviour caused the stereotype not the other way around.
***** Interested to hear who you think that is. Because it's none of these women.
cindellednic I'm pretty sure he meant it as contrargument to Aulis Vaara "Why are we branded misogynists?!" "Well, maybe cause women are branded all the time".
Btw. they didn't brand anybody. And my comment was about the fact that we as a community often don't think before writing/speaking.
Favorite Dropped Frames so far. They should totally do more of this guest take-over dealio.
Gonna repeat it here (not indulging myself into topics themselves and who is right) - Shannon was and is a great host and discussion with cast/crew was very smooth :) Good stuff
This was really fantastic. The participants are great and Shannon moderated and fact checked like a boss. I wasn't expecting a discussion like this to leave me with warm feelings of sisterhood and hopefulness. Would love to see more discussions from this group!
Kaceytron is my favorite troll
OK personally I do a lot of feminist whining on the internet because of my distaste of how certain elements of the movement are trying to take it. I am all for the equality of the sexes that's why I identify as an egalitarian, but I think (wrongly or justified) that we should have equality of opportunity and not always equality of outcome. I hate it when people complain about x demographic having poor representation of x demographic when they either aren't apart of the demographic they are trying to change or aren't actively supporting those who are.
I am 95% onboard with what Renee said (except for the definition of feminism vs what it has become argument) and am happy that she actually is a female streamer and is actively trying to support other women who are trying to get big in the industry.
"Isn't her exclusively supporting female streamers changing the balance of equality of opportunity?" I hear someone make a stupid comment about. YES it's changing the opportunity of becoming successful, but in the same light everyone has equal access (except for economic factors) to twitch and steaming technology so it isn't a problem. Should there be more popular female streamers? YES. Should we have some quota system for supporting streamers of any demographic for being popular? NO (I don't have a clue how that could be done in the context of twitch or youtube but you get my idea hopefully).
I personally want to see fully where Renee differs ideologically from someone like Anita Sarkeesian (of whom I personally despise because of various reason one of which is that her head writer actually believes that violent videogames cause real life violence) mostly because she follows her on twitter (I only know this because she is the ONLY person I follow on twitter who actually follows Feminist Frequency)
I get the feeling that basicly Sky and this group are trying to solve the same problem with 2 different directions. Sky is trying to have women taken seriously in the gaming community (Women can stream and play just as well as any guy). This group is trying to get people to not take everything so seriously and just say "We are people. Whats the big deal? Make money and run your stream how you want."
Both sides have their merits and flaws. As my boss once told me. "People are going to argue and bitch, but when its arguing on the better way to solve a problem then its 'all good in the neighborhood'." Im just glad people are trying to make the world a better place for others. Even if you get mad at one side or the other, you are still wanting the same thing.
Phobos2085 hey hey guys, look at this nerd (no but seriously, good job being a decent, rational, well reasoning individual)
I think the discussion you ladies had here was very clean and constructive. I've been taking time to watch some of you on Twitch before I started throwing around opinions. And I'm not going to lean one way or the other, because I don't want to make a foolish, uneducated comment when I don't have my facts straight.
The only thing that I would like to point out is that after watching this show, i came to the conclusion that that 3 out of 4 are genuine about this subject. It took my an hour to finally realize it. But look at the camera angles. One of them is not like the other. To me, that just goes to show the motives of a certain individual. I watched lolrenaynay last night for about two hours straight, and it was a FANTASTIC SHOW. Hanging out with viewers in the beginning, trying your hardest to read new donations and subscribers even with 2,000 viewers, engaging with chat, AND PLAYING GAMES. Kudos to you...what a great time.
Being a dude, I'd just like to say great job with this episode and keep the constructive conversations up. It's really awesome to see ladies rising up in this industry. We need less testosterone on twitch. Lastly, I just want to say if we all stopped pointing fingers and just looked forward, we could all be happy.
+Nackers What?
This was really cool to watch! Would definitely be interested in watching regular twitch programming like this in the future.
Shannon is a pretty darn good host. Great show as usual!
Awesome episode! It was really interesting and a lot of good points were made, which changed my way to look at the subject. Would be incredible if something like this were to happen again, really good dynamic between everyone and I think a lot more interesting discussion can be had.
I'm not saying that women sticking together is wrong, but the way they said it made it seem that way. At first they said that one girl doesn't define all women, but then they said that when a girl doesn't support a girl streamer, they get frustrated. So are they saying that girls should support other girls regardless of opinions? That women should just mindlessly follow other women? That's what it sounded like to me (longest comment I've ever written :D)
If twitch had a larger female demographic then male appearance would matter almost as much as female appearance.
Кирилл Никитин nursing used to have/still has a female bias. people would/will mock a male nurse, stereotyping a hobby or profession for anything being gender, body-type, race or any thing that's uncontrollable by the person is just a way of isolating people from what they want to do.
Sam Johnson I don't think that's about looks specifically. But people love to pigeon-hole each other for all sorts of reasons, sure.
Well the fact that all women are expected to wear make-up no matter where they go would have me heavily disagree with you there.
Sam Johnson That's because nursing is viewed as a 'weak job' and for females. Think like wars in the past. Males were the ones with the guns and the swords, fighting with valor and vigor against foes, while the women were the nurses helping the injured. It was thought as less important, so the jobs were given to women because women were and, for the most part, still are expected to be 'gentle', 'nurturing', and 'caring'. Qualities that, for men, quite a large group of men would think as weak. It's not weak at all, nor should men be mocked for having those qualities.
Nursing is hard as fuck and anyone, female or male, who does it deserve to be respected, not mocked for their gender.
BAMFeria Who views nursing as a weak job? Nurses are heroes, working their asses off to keep the business of saving lives running smoothly and in comfort for the patients. Maybe that's just my perspective though, I haven't exactly asked around lol
i'd have a much easier time recognizing her satire if at least once i saw her being normal on stream. maybe it's just timing, maybe it's just chance, but every single time i drop by her stream, she's doing the same bloody thing.
and i thought that twitch was more about streaming games rather than satire. she stays in base, for like 5 mins, not doing a single thing, reading donations and chat, and doing her "satire". she goes to lane, dives an impossible fight, dies, and then rinse and repeat. this might all be just fun for her to do things like that, but there are 4 other people in that game on her team who have to put up with a "griefer".
having a youtube channel and doing satire is one ting, but afaik 90% of the people on twitch use twitch to watch game play. and it's fine if it's on twitch, if she wasn't in game, but making her team lose because she doesn't have her priorities straight while streaming is what gets my undies in a bunch lol.
xyr3s yea, does satire really matter if you never drop the satire?
xyr3s She does it in lol or dota? I say we find her account and bring the fucking gaben-hammer...
Stupid girls ruining a perfect session...
+xyr3s You're not in a position to describe her streams, clearly. But I'm pretty sure Twitch is an entertainment site... with games.
+TheShinyDunsparce It's a powerful move to actually not be too revealing, as it becomes more interesting and allows others to speculate themselves, though there's been a few times where she pretty much dropped it (minus the botched terms she uses). But satire doesn't come with the requirement of showing the audience who you really are, nor does acting or anything else. For years pro-wrestlers would never let down their gimmicks publicly. Someone like Andy Kaufman was never too revealing either.
PlutøTracks.
so your saying you are completely fine when you play league or dota or hots and some one on your team grieves just to entertain their viewers and causing you to lose games.well then sir i applaud you for you are a better person than i am. i think what she is doing is wrong, entertaining people at the cost of ruining a game for the 4 other team mates on her team.
Feminism is strange to me, people say its about people being treated equally regardless of gender, which I believe is something the majority of people can agree is how we should treat people, but why do you have to say youre a feminist? Its like people going around calling themselves "not a racist".
I think it's pretty complicated but for example if a bill is trying to get get passed in congress (for example) that has some sexist themes to it then there needs to be a voice/name to challenge it. It's essentially like a better tag - the word "feminism" better describes the context rather than the word "humanism", even though "humanism" is what it actually is. Language eh?
Feminism is a female supremacist movement, full stop. I'd actually have some kind of respect for them if they'd actually admit to what their actions brand them as rather than pointing at one of the two dictionary definitions and screeching, "It's about equality fuckface! D:
Ku Dala Simple, the feminism that is mostly displayed is 3rd wave, however they are extremist and do not represent feminism as a whole, they are simply the ones that scream the most/loudest while also having controversial opinons = attention, it is basically like how terrorist groups make religious groups seem bad in some peoples' eyes.
As a prime example of first point, 2nd wave feminism made a big point about eliminating labels, everyone is simply a human. 3rd wave goes and puts labels on everything while saying no labels, ya dirty white cis male :p
+Nico Del Pellegrino So you are implying that "sexism" only happens to women, therefore FEMinism? If a sexist "bill" is passed, be assured that it will be targeting men... because women always benefit when it comes to the legal system.
It's really nice to hear your points of view on these matters! The more we all understand each other, the better we treat one another.
Well, all four of you just gained a follower. Fantastic discussion!
Dang, I'm so happy you guys did this.
I was totally confused what all the talk today was about. Thanks! I'll leave a comment at the end.
Ive seen all the dropped frames episodes and (yes i know i commented early, fucking sue me) this has been my favorite episode so far . I watch and respect all of these ladies, (besides Kacytron but i dont play leauge, she seems dope though). ive been watching renee and dodger for yearrrs and they are fucking hilarious and great content creators. JP your a really smart dude for doing this episode and i think you should do another with the same cast! i like hearing their point of view because alot of female streamers aren't taken seriously and almost viewed as objects and its bullshit because everyone is equal and deserves the same respect as any other human. JP continues to be a fucking hell of a dude and make some of the best content on twitch and youtube out there in my opinion. TLDR; THIS SHIT WAS DOPE, THESE LADIES IS DOPE, JP IS DOPE, AND DO THIS AGAIN.
+OBrien419plus1 They are objects. People are objects.
Thank you amazing ladies for this! I've been thinking about starting my own gaming channel for a while now, but I'm suuuper scared because of things I know are happening to women who are involved in gaming. Yet you are all so cool and inspiring so I might do it anyway. n___n
That was a great podcast, girls, thank you!
My big problem with arguments around Twitch, or TH-cam, is that they tend to happen without a dialogue between both sides. And I mean a real debate, not the shitstorm that was Skys stream, or hashtag debates. It tends to come down to who can shout louder. It'd be nice for an actual debate to happen somewhere, with opening arguments, rebuttals, audience questions, actual moderation etc.
345tom Especially the Hashtag-"Culture" that seems to be growing more and more makes proper discussions almost impossible. People tend to have a go at each other via twitter and create these massive shitstorms, mostly to gather followers. If it ever ends up being a proper discussion via Skype or such, it tends to be so much more civilised.
DerLoladin yeh the worst thing about a hashtag "movement" is that ANYONE can use the tag and paint the entirety of the people using the tag in some kind of altered light. Hell just add the fact that any random no picture guy could have been made 5 minutes ago for the expressed intent of trolling the hell out of some internet group
Love Kaceytron. There I said it. Her troll skillz > all of you. lol.
I barely even noticed that it wasn't JP hosting!
This was fun to listen to with great host and good guests, great stuff
Wow. Shannon was a great host. I was surprised on how well she did it considering I have never seen her host anything. Good Job Shannon!
I only know dodger from the cooptional podcast. Never seen the other 3 ladies before. All 3 seem pretty awesome and seeing ladies so confident and firm in their beliefs are awesome. Kudos to JP for giving the ladies a chance to speak out on an important topic for all gamers on an established platform.
"I get tweeted screencaps of people that said they broke the rules"
WELL THAT'S WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU HAVE INTENTIONALLY VAGUE RULES, HOW THE FUCK DID YOU NOT SEE THAT COMING?
"can't make the rules even more restrictive on clothing otherwise it becomes a full on school dress code"
Agreed, simply regulate the facecams instead, regulate their dimensions and add GUIDELINES (not rules) something in the lines of: When video games are being streamed they are the priority and thus the facecam can only take up xx% of the screen, need help cropping? Follow the guidelines below or a step to step guide
This would solve the issue in 1 swoop. Female gamers won't need to worry about what to wear, everything looks a lot more professional and neat, and since you get most of your viewers from the video games you stream and you and your personality while playing the games you shouldn't lose any viewers unless they were only there for the tits to begin with
Seriously Twitch, shape up your shit, vague rules helps no one except allow you to claim you made a stance on something while allowing a handful of admins to freely interpret the rules as they see fit which is always ripe grounds for abuse (through allowing whoever the admins like to get away with it while not allowing anyone else) and only serves to make the admins job harder (if they still intend to do a good job and not abuse the shit out of these vague rules) unless they decide to ignore the rules due to their vagueness in which case you kind of defeated the point of a Code of Conduct to begin with.
Video games want to be taken seriously? Then it's time to show some god damned professionalism
Very interesting podcast. I hope to see you in some next Dropped Frames.
I'd watch a regular show with the four of them. This episode was very interesting and funny.
female gamers that stream on twitch are awesome. Lots of female games have serious game.
80% of your fans like you because you are hot chicks. Not for being an awesome human.
Don't feel bad just look at athletes and singers. If they didn't have a specific trait your think people would give a crap about them?
Most people are superficial...deal with it and make your money.
Keaggan Citation needed.
Otherwise I will go out and say...bullshit.
DerLoladin Why do you watch them stream? And what is the chat mostly filled up with?
**Mic Drop**
***** Did I say 100%? I'll give you a sec to reread what I wrote.
***** "Why not both?" - *Why not Zoidberg? -\(*u*)\_*
lets be honest most "celebrities" get aatention for one specific trait TBs accent JPs wonderfull sexy beard zekes ragen and the lists goes on and on
8 females out of the top 100 isn't really that bad. I mean, to look at how much total twitch streamers there are, females would probably would account for like less than 10%? So it makes sense that there is only around 10 females in the top 100? For women to be represented more in the community I feel like Twitch would need to encourage more female viewers to start streaming so the website was seen as more female friendly and more girls would more likely visit.
Shanon said that there are 8 female streamers in top 100 most followed streams on twitch and that's less than 10%. That's, probably, not entirely true. A lot of those channels are company channels. There are actually around 10% of female streamers in top 10, which seems reasonable with demographic breakdown of "hardcore gamers".
Since we don't know how many % of overall streamers are female, the 8/100 doesn't mean much. For instance if only 1% of overall streamers are female, having 8% in top 100 is pretty huge.
TheBassemandrh This is probably the most valid critique of the episode. More research was needed here.
Ivan Borisenko if anything it's probably abnormally high since the amount of female streams could be less than 8%
Loved the show. Thanks for sharing your views, ladies.
i'm sorry, but this video is vary VARY one sided. you should have had sky here. AND another male streamer. they completely missed the point of sky's video, their opinions are kind of limited, and there was really no REAL discussion. just the same female perspective recycled over and over again. i like all the people in the video, but it was vary poorly planed and thought out. sorry.
-HOWEVER, I am in fact vary VARY stupid, and misinterpreted that this video is not a super try hard moral conversation, or supreme-court case, and is simply opinions shared for entertainment and fun. I guess I've been watching to much SVU again.. XD. My apologizes to the creator(s), the host, and the guests. :) -MFP
There is a video out there with sky and kacey talking about it. TB, Siv HD, Destiny have convinced Sky that he is wrong, and you would know that Sky is legitimately wrong. These girls have literally said that even if boobcams are successful, they only last in the short run. Any good stream needs more than just boobs.
Whether or not Sky's video is correct does not change the fact that THIS video was poorly planned. the main topic of the video was about skys video therefore sky should have been on here to defend it. for any real type of discussion there should have been a male person, that's it. I've seen the VODs of their discussion with kaceytron TB and everything, and personally I think that the debate was not finished, and was slightly one sided. I think that sky's message was correct its just that the video he made was to broad. he should have narrowed it down and included other ways that PEOPLE (not just women) manipulate their viewers / audience, because that's what the message was really about. it's about people manipulating their viewers to get money. And that is wrong. So fuck off thinking i didn't look in to this topic, and fuck off telling me i'm wrong.
Magicfire productions "You should have males on this all-female episode".
Well that's incredible advice, I can't imagine why they didnt take that.
They don't need our fucking perspective, they don't need help to form an opinion.
Good points TB. I guess i missed that this show was just opinions shared for the sake of entertainment. Still it would have been fun if after the opinions had been shared they had called sky to talk. Though i see the reasoning as to why they did in fact not do that. Good day sir.
Ps. I have a question for you TB. When reading my comment did you use a curse word/name to describe me? Personally i hope you said/used "what an ass hat" haha :)
very* x1000
about ~35:00 : you have to realize that you're not being attacked BECAUSE you're a woman, it's just the theme of the insult. a troll will say whatever they think upsets you most.
I don't get all the anger about kaceytron. The satire is obvious. And for her making money off stupid people... uhm.. guys?
In a world where Scientology exists a gorgeous girl showing a bit of cleavage is not the worst problem...
+Talon3000 I would assume most of the "stupid people" refund the donations. But she has genuine fans and subs which she makes money off, sooo...
I didn't know Kacey before, but damn, her Patreon is brilliant :D
"Can't be successful if you just have skin out you need something else"
Ohhhh you underestimate how sad the internet can be.
+MrLechop Long success though? Usually it's more than just that.
Dodger is awesome and very genuine. I'm not familiar with the other girls. I watch Dodger's streams and I love them. I have heard some very bad things about Kacey's streams, but I have never watched them live. I have seen the recaps on youtube and they are not my thing. I do love women in gaming would love to see more content.
I love the fact that Dodger is the only girl who isn't wearing makeup!
Kaceytron and Dodger in my heart
Great discussion.
Also I wanna mention I heavily disliked Kacytron, until I found out it's an act a few days ago. Now I actually find it funny, so props to you Kacy.
Please make this a regular thing
This was interesting, and I'd watch another episode with these people. However I think people need to stop giving themselves massive pats-on-the-back for "dealing" with "difficult topics" and "having a conversation" with things like this. It's pretty meaningless when you consider the lack of opposition and the fact that opposing arguments are never represented at their strongest in these comfy environments.
To be fair, it's just fans I see doing this, so no problem with the streamers. From their point of view it's probably just another quietly entertaining/funny podcast, which it is
The starcraft incident is when a male pro said he was gonna rape his opponent of course he meant it in the same way every other gamer does when he or she says he's gonna rape his opponent but since it was towards a female he was held to a double standard.
+Sniperyeti The word police in full force.
That patreon was too good.
im a little freaked shannon there went to the effort of appearing in an empty void as residence
Trinkets and Boobles
In all seriousness though, this was a lovely and informative podcast.
Yes.. Yes!!! Let the Hate flow through you, It will make you strong!
I think they missed a big part of the discussion, they talked about how sky said that female streamers are ruining twitch, and that was defienetely not the case, he was talking alot about that how some girls were ruining it for others, also judging guys.
Also, with the 8 out of top 100 streamers on a certain site being female.. 8 out of how many streamers in total on that site and how many male streamers in total?
I dont believe for a second these are real gamers.
I don't know, I think this topic is mostly a concern due to the target audience.
I'd really be interested in the age distribution streamers get on twitch. I would think that median is below 18 years. And that's the kind of the age where boys and girls tend to test their borders.
This of course is not meant as an excuse, it's imho just a byproduct a world without/with low moderation brings with it. Teens do stupid shit in school even though there should be moderation from the parents and teachers, on the internet it's the same but worse. Sadly I don't think that this will change a lot without killing the idea of a free internet.
Just to add to the above point - gender equality itself is a time consuming process imho. I do think that a few generations from now people will adapt as conservative gender roles falter. This process is annoyingly slow and kind of getting set back in many countries around the world, but in the long run I do think that this is the only way our society can progress.
+gruftschreck Nor should it change. If you don't want public criticism then remain private. Block people if you're sensitive about it. This isn't rocket science, and people have been bitching about one another way before the internet was popping.
On the last paragraph, what are you referring to exactly?
i think that kaitlyn has actually suffered alot of probs for being a female streamer abd playing such a complex game like SC2 and jp sohulda totes invited her
missed a great change to call this Fropped Dames
This show might do better with an even number of female and male guests, though I understand the hesitation since with misogynists it seems to always be a loss-loss situation.
Maybe having a host that has nothing to lose (viewers/important friends) would be better to host the show, with important issues like gender equality you can't hold back. It's one of my greatest respects for TB that when I've seen him on shows to do with games journalism/ethics/consumer rights he doesn't hold back because it's very important to him.
And by holding back I mean being blunt and saying things no matter how controversial they are - purely on the merit of the logic behind them.
"We're all nerds with pepperonis"
perfect
10 out of 10 would watch again
"YOUR PEPPERONIS ARE VERY OFFENSIVE!"
I'm quoting this at some point, just FYI.
This was great. I saw Sky's second video without having seen his first. Based on what he said I think ya'll did great being reasonable and rational about what was clearly poorly said by him.
Generally calm self reflective conversations are good.
lo the link is for this video, instead of part 1
Hmm, I don't exactly know what I think about Kaceytron now, but I will say that there is a fine line between satire and mimicry, but I don't watch her stream so I can't say for certain whether the line is crossed.
I've just recently started streaming and I've already had a person say they want to sleep with me....I don't even use a webcam. Like duuuude...
My only criticism, if you can call it such, is this: If you don't want to have face cam while streaming, don't. One person I love to watch and watch regularly is Northernlion on the NLSS. While he does show "eggcam", (because of his perfectly round bald dome), he usually doesn't, and has been streaming now for a while. Yes, he is a guy, but what makes his streams fun and popular is him, how and what he says, his interactions with the viewers, and what makes NL, NL. Females could do the exact same thing and only show cam if and when they are comfortable and even then, not all the time. Face cam is not a prerequisite nor necessary to stream.
Something I want to point out:
I happened to watch sky's video and actually agree with what he was saying. Before I'm called out for being sexist or whatever people call it, this was because I don't stream and don't watch streams all that much either so I don't know what the culture's like on Twitch and that made sense to me. Having watched this video however I'm happy to take your word for it that this isn't the case but what I want to call out and that I seriously don't appreciate is being called an asshole for holding an uninformed opinion and having an uninformed view. I watch and like Dodger (sorry to the other three, haven't herd of you before) so I have no reason to think she or any of you four are bad people but I thought you should know.
Thanks in advance for not dog piling on me and thank you for (again in advance) for having a mature discussion about an issue and letting me voice a problem because of a controversial opinion/view.
Oh my gawd such secksist! Burn this mysogyknist MRA at the steak sistirs! D:
52:40 - The statements of previously holding what's considered the "wrong" opinion makes me think the toxicity is largely an issue of youths on the internet. *It feels many of these "trolls" and jerks are children or teens don't fully understand the politics being discussed and just want to feel important or wants attention.*
It echoes the discussion I heard on Co-Optional with Alanah Pearce. A lot of the troubles on the internet (when it's not a 4chan raid) seem rooted down to subpar parenting.
That may be why the same people who insult Kaceytron would turn around and say they love her. It's a nasty cycle of kids tapping into media they don't understand and doing anything to grab attention.
"Why haven't I been banned yet?" = "Why isn't anyone paying any attention to me?"
mega17 Exactly, it's for attention. That's all that "trolling" is about, attention and the price of making someone feel bad. They did something in life, they achieved something. They influenced another human being in some way through what they said.
it's really rather sad.
+mega17 Or it's not that deep, and it's instead just some people talking shit... as people have always done. Yea, most people play along and insult her in the same way people in the crowd of a wrestling event might boo the bad guy even if knowing that it's all scripted. She doesn't try to make herself come across as completely innocent, nice and friendly. It's a back and forth thing, and the type of reaction she gets helps out her streams a lot.
spped2fast There's nothing deep about what I described, you're just being thoughtless. Talking shit is a very normal cry for attention.
And when people are being whiny babies it's usually cause mommy or daddy neglected them emotionally, ethically, or so on.
mega17 No, you're just trying to act like this is something more than what it is. Agree to disagree.
Surprise, someone on the internet is a psychology major. You didn't really respond to anything I said.
spped2fast Yes, I agree to disagree with your attempt to strawman my words.
It's cute that you think just being a psychology major lets you debunk everything someone else said. Get over yourself.
A proper scholar recognizes they will never be able to follow everything in their field. They are open to an evolving conversation.
Awesome cast guys.
Really interesting and insightful.
I feel like the only streamers being mocked here are Kacey and the redhead. Dodger and Shannon come across as professional content creators the other two who I had not really seen within only an hour come across as childish, attention seeking and playing victim (however much they "don't care").
There is two classes of streamers the ones that are professional and the ones that are mocked and talked shit on. The professional ones rise to the top and the others just bicker and argue.
+Ze Germanz Everyone who streams is "attention seeking", so pointing it out is pointless. Kaceytron seems to be doing pretty fine though, has a loyal fanbase and has the skin to deal with "mean comments".
Kaceytron on Rollplay, make it happen!
Out of the 4 girls in this video, Shannon is the cutest and I usually don't even find red heads attractive :P
Why does Shannon not Stream. Damn it. She has a beautiful face and really good voice for it. WHY !!!!!! PLEASE Stream !!!!!!!
Intriguing podcast. I would love to see more female streamers creating awesome content on Twitch. I'm a viewer/consumer and a guy, not a streamer, and I am extremely disapproving of "tit cam" streamers. Not only is the gameplay close to nonexistent in these streams, but it's patently obvious the only intent of these streams is to monetize sexuality. That's not to say there is anything wrong with using sex to sell a product (every industry does it right?), I just feel this type of content has no place on Twitch.
That said, I think it's appalling that Dropped Frames chose Kaceytron as a featured guest for the female streamers on Twitch topic. Her stream / chat is nothing but a festering, stinking pit of negativity and ignorance. The "community" she has created does nothing but spam toxic filth for the entire duration of her stream. She wholly embraces and perpetuates this garbage by engaging, religiously reading and responding to the most vile comments/donations she receives. The 'content' she creates intentionally panders to and feeds the most ignorant and vile elements of human nature. I entirely understand this is all done under the guise of "satire" and "comedy" and is supposedly then 'brilliant', but it is in reality extremely sad and depressing that something like this is promoted and celebrated.
I would have hoped for a Dropped Frames to exercise a bit more discretion and class as it applies to decisions on who to feature. There is no way one can objectively look at a streamer like Kaceytron and come to the conclusion her contribution to the Twitch community is anything but negative and detrimental.
Dislcaimer: This is my personal opinion, I do not speak for all men. I also don't view Dropped Frames as speaking for women as a gender.
most female streamer i watch or know i found from being the girlfriend of a popular male streamer. and they are more of the type i like to watch. but the others are mostly boobcammers
cody thompson like who?
***** shannon, verns girlfriend, gldgloves girl ali. To name a few
So much BS, "there's not legit guy streamers and not legit". Yes there is!
There are people that fall into the childish Pewdiepie style streamers who dick about and then there's your Lirik, ManVSGame and TB style streamers that take it relatively seriously and come across as professional and that's why they are on top.
Personally, i wouldn't say it matters what someone looks like in a stream or podcast.
I mostly click on a podcast or stream and do something else like play a game myself and just listen to the conversation or commentary. So i'd say it's a lot more to do with the personality of the streamer than the looks.
oh my god, stop playing the victim. I think you girls missed the point on sky's video.. "we are awful people" Nobody said that, then you bring kacy tron into your video?! Seriously?? How do people take anything you women say seriously?
+moorecooler24 Because people follow these women and have actually watched enough of their content to know that they are legit streamers. That's how (despite Kacy)
+MegaTobins696 Why "despite Kacy"?
PlutøTracks. I personally cant take Kacy seriously thus i excluded her from the other trio. But again, thats just my opinion and i have no problem with Kacy personally i just dont like the way she does things
***** I don't think she wants people to take her seriously though. I just wasn't really sure what you meant by "legit" is all. If you mean a serious and honest game stream, well then I would side with you lol.
+moorecooler24 He said that people should be forced to represent everybody else. That's the bullshit part. I don't really think someone like Kaceytron has a problem with him looking negatively on "booby streamers" (she does it for parody reasons to begin with), but is more so bothered about having to carry every other female just because they share the same gender. What she does is what she does. I assume it can be annoying to be expected to represent everybody else, especially even if you don't typically like everybody else or share anything in common with them to begin with (other than sex).
i agree with most stuff the ladies talk about. interesting stuff. however the points i dont agree with are when they talked about numbers. women are under-represented on twitch? but the vast vast majority of gamers in general are male so it would stand to reason that the vast majority of streamers are male. same goes for the 8 out of 100 streamers being women. that might well be about right considering the number of male to female streamers. they even said it was fair about the featured streamer thing, that 5 were male and 4 female, its not really balanced when the majority of streamers are men. i am all for getting more people to stream both male and female. but most gamers are men and therefore most streamers will be men
In my opinion, growing your channel as a small streamer is difficult no mater the sex, age, etc. Everyone has something holding them back in someway. Growing a stream takes time and effort. You need to learn how to manage your time, network, figure out the technical back-end, plan, practice conversations, etc. Being a male specifically has proven to be frustrating on Twitch as well (another stupid bearded white guy) because I've been judged, called out, threatened, and all that jazz.
Now I think one of the reasons why this whole "they watch me for my boobs" thing is coming up a lot is because there are definitely streamers that play off that. Guys don't have a way to be sexually appealing on stream, where as woman do, and I think that's why a lot of guys get up in arms about females having an easier time. I know there are a few guys that get legitimately angry about this just in the community I'm in. To be honest though, it's just their way of finding something to blame their slow growth on other then themselves.
Ultimately this is just a hot button topic that would be hard to find a reasonable answer to because there are so many people looking at it from so many angles.
It was really good to see Kaceytron out of her character, she seemed like a really nice and intelligent person, her character is kind of a waste of a good streamer =)
JP just a heads up Dexbonus's link is spelled wrong and goes to a taken down page.
Omg dodger's face was so white XD