Amen. GM thought the buying public would purchase whatever they threw together because they were #1. They prepared the way for Japan to begin taking market share they're not giving back
I was gifted a 1987 model by a elderly neighbor that could no longer drive. I had been doing household chores for years such as mowing her lawn shoveling her sidewalk and driveway and cleaning her gutters. It was in my parents driveway when we got home from my birthday dinner. The keys and title were with the card. It had just had a full service and detail as well as new tires. It had been meticulously maintained and garaged it's whole life and only had 10,485 miles. I drove it all through the remainder of high school college and veterinary school. Never failed to start or left me stranded. With the V6 engine it was fairly quick. Not the greatest car I have ever owned but hardly the POS urban legend suggests. It was rear ended by a Ram pickup truck with 245k miles and everything but the cassette player still worked.
Hello Adam. I arrived in Detroit the summer of 1985 as a newly graduated engineer at Chrysler. I was a car crazed young man to say the least. With that in mind, I can't get enough of the American car industry from that time and my formative years growing up in the 1970s. Keep these car chats coming and I will watch, enjoy and "like" them. I also greatly appreciate your collection of low mileage American cars from the 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. It is all interesting and very nostalgic to me. Thank you.
@ Anthony Barr So you're one of the ones who designed and built all that garbage that came out of Detroit in the 80s huh? And you consider yourself to be a engineer? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So you came onboard during Iacocca’s K-Car expansion. That was an interesting time for Chrysler, and some of the cars were interesting. I bought a LeBaron (J-body), and loved it. It was a very stable platform, drove exceptionally well for an FWD vehicle of that era, and was economical. The only regret I have is not opting for the V-6 over the turbo engine; the turbo-4 was a bit unrefined (NVH - noise, vibration, harshness was typical of an in-line-4 without balance shafts), though with port injection, the car ran flawlessly for over 100k miles. I find those years to be a renaissance after the malaise-era, most of improvements owing to the adoption and refinement of fuel injection and engine control systems that we all take for granted these days.
Adam, you should do a video about the 6000STE. We had an early 1983 model which had rear drums, carbureted 2.8, no digital dash and 14” SE wheels. All things that were changed later. It was worthy of the C&D 10 best list because it handled great. I haven’t seen one in 20+ years.
The greatest gift the Cimmaron gave the world is all the videos and analysis almost 40 years later trying to figure out how it could have ever been released!
I remember my dad taking in a brown Cadillac Cimarron 5-speed in on trade at our car lot. I couldn't have been more than 6 or 7 years old. He pulled it into the back (where our 1960 Eldorado Seville was sitting). Even as a child, I knew something had gone very, very wrong over at Cadillac.
GM went downhill when they combined everything. Pontiacs, Buicks and Oldsmobiles became essentially the exact same cars with different names. Some of the Chevys also were just the same. That 1980's G body was the worst piece of crap ever. Think Regal, Monte Carlo, Cutlass, Grand Prix etc.
Adam, Really like the “on the porch” chat style. Definitely would hope there are more to come. In discussing the Cimarron, in addition to the great information you provided, there are a couple of other factors that greatly influenced, and ultimately doomed that car. Roger Smith was chairman of GM at the time of the Cimarron. I understand he was hawkish about expenses. You mentioned the 1.8 being a “parts bin” engine. I’m betting those engineers were told something like, “make us an all new engine, but it has to be from stuff we already make. No budget for engineering new components.” I’d be willing to bet Cadillac would have done a lot different to the J body if it could have. They had to know, in fact how they badged the car indicated they did, that Cimarron would always be “the red-headed step child” of Cadillac (No disrespect to red-heads or step children). I think the second factor was CAFE. As the standards rose in the ‘80’s, how do you get Cadillac in compliance without alienating its customer base? Maybe they were hoping Cimarron would bring some buyers into the fold that would move enough to help offset those that wanted the big “gas guzzling” traditional Cadillac. That would certainly make getting to the CAFE number easier.
People actually bought these cars and had to drive them. Did they fell better about their vehicle because they were happy to help out so someone could drive a gas guzzler?
I think this format compliments the other content quite nicely. This is by far my favorite car channel, not only because of the cars featured, but also because of the information and history provided. Exceptional job you’ve done here!
My Dad's friend had a 1987 Cadillac Cimarron...V6 with a 5 speed manual....silver with a gray interior. Dad also purchased a Pontiac 6000 LE about the same time and thought it was better value. I recall him joking about his friend's Cimarron being a fancy Cavalier. I think later in the production run, they engineered enough differentiation into the Cimarron but it was too late. My Dad's friend lived close to the Minneapolis St. Paul Airport and I used to stay at their house anytime I would fly out of town., He took me to the airport in the Cimarron and I thought it was a nice car...and being 21 years old at that time, I thought it was a classy way to get to the airport. Of course, my car at the time was a 79 Olds Cutlass with the fastback....I remember Dad's friend taking the keys to the car and saying, "I'll keep that buggy in the garage." Another family friend joked that he thought it was so ugly he wanted to hide it from the neighbors. In hindsight, I think Cadillac should have based the Cimarron on the A Body front drive platform...which was tuned for decent performance with the 6000 STE. It would have had more space and immediately been available with a larger V6 and size wise would have been better matched for the BMWs and Audis of the day.
The A platform wasn't quite a thing yet when Cimmerons went into production... But I agree that would have been a good "budget Caddy" body. They even touched on AWD with that one.
Cadillac should stop trying to compete with the Germans, it’s hopeless. Just do what they’re good at and make beautiful, massive, luxurious, powerful and COMFORTABLE cars. They’ve permanently lost their way. I have a 76 Fleetwood Brougham and a 2006 Escalade ESV Platinum. The 76 is much more comfortable and smoother riding, has a 3” longer wheelbase and is longer overall as well. The Escalade is a truck.
Interesting line of discussion, Adam. The Cimarron epitomizes all of what went wrong at GM in that era. It seems hard to believe when one realizes that Pete Estes was the CEO, being a highly-regarded engineer with a good track record. But he apparently wasn't willing or able to stand up to the Chairman, Roger Smith, and the rest of Smith's fellow 14th floor execs when it came to bean-counting taken to the extreme as Smith wanted, in order to allow him to engage in flights of fancy like Saturn and the purchase of EDS from Ross Perot. GM's cars in that era suffered greatly as a result of that cost-cutting. It seemed that any modicum of sense disappeared when someone undoubtedly stood up in a meeting and said the Cimarron would sticker for over $12K, and that got approval. What were they thinking? The customer research, if any was even done on that point, must have been something to see. Of course it wasn't just the Cimarron, although that is the likely poster child for this era. You mentioned some other examples, like the 1.8 engine itself, the Olds diesel that was rushed into production, and the pair of Cadillac mysteries, the V8-6-4 and the HT4100. There were also various forgettable rush jobs like the shrunken Chevy small-block, the sawed-off V8s that became V6s and no doubt others. All of those engine programs were done to try to accommodate the CAFE regulations that were coming up and getting more stringent with time. GM's answer wasn't to develop more advanced, more efficient engines, but instead to reduce output and achieve fuel economy targets using existing pushrod engine technologies, presumably to save money. The result was a product line across the company that was saddled with underpowered, undersized engines. The early '80s were a bad time to be buying almost any GM car, although the other domestics weren't much better off. It seemed like all of the engineers they used to have who knew how to develop engines were no longer there. I would love to hear the discussions around the executive table that led to the HT4100 program at Cadillac back then. It astounds me that anyone would green-light a new pushrod engine program in that era. There were lots of reasons for the decline of GM that go beyond just that, but you can see the lack of vision and how poorly they understood their customers as an overriding factor.
A lot of the HT4100 Cadillacs had second life with 307 olds power under the hood, not sure if a lot of dealerships did that to appease pissed off customers or if they opted for it out of pocket but once put those in there you can't kill them... but at least with further development what culminated in the 4.9 at least measured up in terms of quality and durability compared to the original HT4100...
Hello Adam. Greetings from Prague (CZE). I just got into US cars this year and I am learning loads of stuff from your car videos. This format is exactly what I was looking for to fully understand how it all worked with the big three and all the brands they had. The more inside information the better:-) If you ever managed to make an interview with anyone from the car manufacturing, that would be just perfect. Thank you for this high quality content and all the best!
I have owned my fair share of American, German and Japanese vehicles (28 and counting). Some of my fondest memories was when I was a GM technician in the 1980's at a Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC Dealer. The first car that I bought after graduating high school in 1980 was a 1974 White Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. I felt like a Senator driving the car to work. The ride, comfort and smooth power was unbeatable. Yes, times have changed, I am a Lexus fan now, but those GM days I will not soon forget. Thank you for triggering my memory with your excellent website!
I was just going to comment yesterday that it had been weeks since we had seen your face in a video, and voila! Here you are. So thank you. For those of us who like the charming delivery along with the awesome automotive knowledge. This chat format is amazing as is your level of detail. As Tina Turner would say.."You're simply the best"
@@bobdepaola7828 Very little of the Nova, closely based on the second generation Camaro, actually was used in Seville. The suspension, considered well sorted at the time, was about it. The only sheet metal shared was the floor of the trunk. I personally consider the Oldsmobile engine used in Seville to be superior to Cadillac engines.
Ironically I owned a 1988 Cadillac Cimarron 5 speed model. Mine was 1 of 111 made for the final 1988 model year. Car was fully loaded except for the digital dash and astroroof options. It was medium blue over silver, tu tone paint scheme, and looked absolutely stunning. With the 5 speed manual transmission and the 2.8 V6, this car would move. I bought it used from a local Cadillac Dealer in Mount Kisco, N.Y. as it was a trade in from its original owner. It had 50,000 original miles in 1994 when I bought it. I drove it to 284,000 miles on the original engine and one replacement clutch. Best car I ever owned. Never left me stranded and got lots of compliments(yes compliments) everywhere I went. The only reason I junked the car in 2003 was because my wife told me it needed to be replaced due to its age/mileage. Should have never junked that car. Mine was one of the rarest of the 1981-1988 run because of the driveline combination. Luckily I took digital pictures of the 5 speed in its console because nobody believes me that they made a 5 speed Cadillac.
Adam, what a great video. Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately, I didn't work on the Bonneville, but did work on a number of Pontiacs in the '80's-'00's. I thought the '11 CTS Coupe, Wagon & '08 Sedans redeemed my performance after the Cimarron! debacle. Hopefully you might agree. The Cimarron project was doomed from the very start. I was Wayne Kady's Asst. Chief and was assigned the Cimarron being the 'new guy' in the studio. What a disaster from the beginning. No time. No money. Panic in Detroit as it were. As you correctly pointed out, the J Body was the wrong choice to begin with. We tried to tell management that it would never work if we only added a fascia and some trim, but no one wanted to hear that. The 8-6-4, the Cadillac Diesel & the Cimarron were the beginnings of Cadillac's problems. 0-60 in 16 seconds! Seriously! Plenty of stories, but we'll stop there. Thanks again for your insightful comments. History.
Thanks, John, for the kind comments. I’ll make a note in the video description about the Bonneville. I think any reasonable person, understanding the constraints imposed upon the designers, would be able to discern why the product came out as it did. My goal was to let the avg person understand that a bit more. I say this being a former GM finance executive and having empathy for the design folks. I do love a number of the Pontiacs in the era you mention, and as mentioned, love the second gen CTS in all forms. My wife had one for some time. Drop me a line sometime. Would be fun to have a finance vs design chat w some former GM folks. I lived and worked in the US, Canada and Brazil for GM. Thanks again, take care, and awesome work. Adam Rareclassiccars@yahoo.com
John, it is good to hear from someone who was at GM Design in the midst of this program and was able to attest to the red flags being ignored by the higher-ups. I believe this happened in the Rybicki era of GM Design and I gather he was not one to assert himself or confront the higher-ups the way Mitchell would have done. A different era for sure. Shortly thereafter we had the cookie-cutter FWD A-car program which, while better cars, did damage to the GM brands by looking so much alike at the behest of management to save money on tooling. Things continued out of balance as time went on unfortunately. I drove '77-'85 B and C-body RWD cars as long as I could until Design finally started to recover and I bought an Intrigue, a Regal, and most recently a pair of Cadillac ATS sedans, which I think is one of the best-looking cars GM has produced so far in this century.
@@ab348 Yes, those were troubled/interesting times. Mostly bad for GM the corporation. cant blame Rybicki however for all that ensued. Post Mitchell, it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge, things were headed south as it were.
Great format, I like hearing and reliving the history of GM. I remember those days quite vividly. Word on the street back then, the Cimarron was a joke! On the other hand, the Chevy Caprice was highly regarded as a very reliable, comfortable family car that was also a good value for the money.
Yes, you couldn't go wrong with a Caprice! Classy styling, well built and comfortable car. Still see the occasional one around. Can't say the same for the Cimarron!
Yes indeed the most fanciest cavalier you could buy 😂😂 Right down to the anemic engine other than a leather wrap steering wheel leather seats and a Cadillac badge oh my God. It was almost as embarrassing as the first time they brought back the Dodge charger name in the Dodge Omni charger
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@@truckerkevthepaidtourist I have a friend who worked in sales at the Cadillac dealersship in those days. He and many of sales people constantly heard from former Cadillac owners from as far back as the 1940's that how "Cheap" GM had gone! Many would go to Mercedes Benz and other luxury brands.
I enjoyed your over view of the Cimmarron story. I owned two Cavaliers and a partner had a Cimmarron, so I lived with these cars. I also was fortunate enough to get a summer job at the GM Tech Center in Warren. I worked in the J car production engineer group and was tasked with closing out all the reported problems from the pilot build. I literally went and found all the product engineers who's part had some sort of difficulty in assembly or from the reliability validation of the pilot vehicles. I was there in 84 and stuffing a V-6 into the Cimmarron was something that presented several challenges.
Hey Adam. I started my career in automotive as a service advisor at a Cadillac store in 1984. A big Cadillac guy… loved them. But I remember the general feeling in us (service staff) at the time, and the Cimmaron wasn’t well regarded. I feel it missed the mark for the power issue and the fro t wheel drive. May have done better with a rear drive platform. As a drivers car standpoint. Anyway love the history and styling discussions. Keep it up.
I discovered your channel by chance and subscribed immediately. I am thrilled with the cars you present, these are exactly the years of construction that impress me the most. I live in Germany and have so far driven exclusively American cars, starting with a 1979 Camaro Berlinetta and then a 1972 Chrysler Newport, which I bought in NC and took with me to Germany. I have the greatest respect for the designer of the second generation Cadillac Seville. I myself owned a 1984 Seville Elegante, bought used in Florida and took it with me to Germany and drove there for several years until another driver drove into my side. After that, I still had a 1989 Fleetwood Sixty Special that felt technical progress, but my heart still hangs on Seville. By the way, both were very economical, I was able to drive them on the highway at 37 Mpg. Today I drive a used Tesla Model S and don't want to miss it anymore. But I think that the old Cadillacs and Tesla have a lot in common. Only that the Cadillacs were more comfortable to spring. Please keep up the good work and maybe you'll bring something about the second generation Seville.
I was in high school and my friend's mom came home with a new Cimarron. I remember thinking, wow - it's a Cavalier with power seats!! Never did understand this car. Great background here! Love your commentaries. More please!
All sorts of "new to the J car" electronics and dash that caused a LOT of warranty Headaches.. I know, I had to fix them... The engine ( first 2 years anyway) was same as the mail trucks, run forever, and not much power.
But you could get a Cavalier with power seats. Once a dog, always a dog. My wife worked with a woman who bought a new Cimarron. After all the paint peeled off and she couldn’t keep a steering rack in it that worked she gave up and bought a decent car, a new Camry. She drove the Camry for 10 trouble free years. Need I say more?
I was 9 years old, about to turn 10, when the Citation was introduced and I loved that platform. When the Cimarron came out I hated it. Cadillacs were NOT supposed to be tiny. Of course, my understanding of the sticker price and cost of vehicles was minimal in those days, but I never took that car seriously.
The first car my grandfather drove or tried to drive was a 1912 (?) Cadillac. He was around eight years old and got a good licking from the family's chauffer. He graduated from college in 1926 and was gifted a new Cadillac. During the Depression and WWII he kept a lower profile. Post War back to Cadillacs and a Muntz Jet for fun. In 1963 a beautiful Rivera but he deemed it too low to the ground and went to an all white Deville with white leather interior and black cloth inserts.. The 1968 Eldorado was beautiful but was hit by an ambulance that ran a red light without a siren or flashing lights on. He took a cab to the Cadillac dealer and got a 1970 Deville. That was the only car of his that I drove but it was a solid, well put together automobile. They have not kept up. Different times. I rambled but I like this video. I remember when the Cimarron came out and it just showed how off the mark GM was. Thanks keep them coming.
Great Video. People who hate these small Cadillac cars just simply have not driven one and researched them and looked at the actual competition of the time for an apples to apples comparison and considered what the new younger Cadillac customers were seeking. Smaller, more sporty, better handling, better performance, better mpg, etc. In the last run of these Cimmarrons they were actually very good cars and with the V6 and stick shift, they were actually fast cars. They had very comfortable seats in top trim and lots of neat gadgetry including fog lights, digital dash, and a neat overhead console . I wish GM had optioned the Cimarron with a European turbo diesel... Remember how sensitive the buying public was to gasoline prices at this time and a small 35 real world combined mpg diesel would have been the icing on the cake.
Adam -This is what makes this one of my favorite channels, your approach is always unique and interesting. Keep up the great work, and definitely continue this format.
I enjoyed your recounting/history of the Cimarron. I began driving in 1971 and always had an eye for Cadillacs. I remember when the Seville was introduced in 1975 and didn't become a fan of it until they gave it a decent grille and then introduced the Elegante edition in black and silver with genuine wire wheels. That car still turns heads. I've read that the only part of the Seville that was attributable to the Nova platform was the front subframe, all else was specific to the Seville. Everyone was concerned about fuel mileage in those days and a few mpg was a big marketing thing. Lincoln copied Cadillac's formula and turned the Granada into the Versailles. They did their best to make it look fancy, but it didn't fool many people. I'd still take a Seville, but not a Versailles. When the Cimarron was introduced, it was in the malaise era - there just wasn't anything exciting to be had. Your remark about the Caprice being a better car and bargain was exactly right. The Cimarron fooled nobody. It was obviously a rush job and I never could understand how they could get it so wrong. While the Seville was loved, the Cimarron was reviled. I'm afraid I must concur with your assessment of Cadillac. They lost it somewhere about 1972/1973 in my opinion. Their cars were well built and reliable to that point. The v8/6/4 was a disaster, so was the HT4100, and the Northstar. It's too bad for certain, because Cadillac once knew and ruled their market.
For a long time I wondered why GM did not use the front-wheel drive X body or the A body that was derived from it and introduced in the 1982 model year for the Cadillac Cimarron. Thanks for making this
The first problem with the Cimarron was in 1982 when it came out it had a 88hp 1.8 4 cylinder. On paper in 82 that was ok. The problem was in the first year it had only a 2.6 axle ratio making it terribly slow. They somewhat correct it in 83 by adding the 2.0 and they upped the axle ratio to 3.42. No gain in power but the taller ratio helped. It wouldn't have been a better car on the X platform it took GM about 4 years to straighten out the quality issues they had. Like you stated the 84 85 X cars were decent they canceled them. In a way the N cars shared alot of the X cars. Great conservation!
Thanks Adam. These videos are a great idea to share your knowledge. You come across as a really pleasant person. When I had my 1967 'Frankenstein' Canadian Pontiac running today, you came to mind!!
I still kind of want one - but the 87-88 V6 and 5 speed - they were beginning to get it right. But in 82, against an Audi 4000 - real German experience, but a little Spartan - or the newly revamped and much more powerful & loaded Maxima, hah. Fun fact - first Caddy since 67 with crank windows standard. Interesting that the J cars were actually more expensive than the X cars - they were trying to be a Honda Accord. Unfortunately, GM was just hopeless in the early 80s, but then so was Detroit, generally. They really sowed the seeds of their own destruction and in a larger sociological context it's a great shame for America. We had (still have?) no ability to think long term', labor exacerbated it, shareholders drove it and upper management featherbedded. But I'm way off topic now.
Very interesting discussion and behind the scenes information and retrospectives. Worked at Cadillac from 88-91…we called the Cimmaron our Cavalier with chrome. The final car was literally put in a crate (really) and housed at the old Clark Street facility where I worked at the time along with last ‘76 Eldorado convertible produced that got the same storage treatment. I’ve been told that both cars are still in GM’s heritage collection.
Well Adam I love your new twist to your videos - looking forward to the next one - as always . My memories are all stirred up by the complete mess GM made of the early entries with this size of vehicle - in 1983 - fresh off the boat as they say at the age of 26 from the UK, we purchased two models, the Oldsmobile Frienza and a Chevy Cavalier - what a complete waste of money - the Olds and Chevy were a mishmash of Isuzu and Opel parts. Both spent many many days of their warranty period in the custody of the dealerships . I did have fun with the local GM senior management driving both vehicles back to back, the Olds was the worst for shifting and starting. I was told formally by GM - “ my expectations was too high, because I was comparing them against my previous Triumph Dolimite and Ford Escort “ - Wow ! The reason for the Wow, the Triumph was a 1500cc and the Escort a 1300cc, and obviously, nowhere near the size of the GM offerings at 2000cc. So, I moved both vehicles over to - wait for the face slap 🤦🏼♂️ - a pair of the new Ford Tempo’s at 2300cc sizing - and so, my North American vehicle dream is shattered - just till I purchased an older 1976 Chevy Malibu with a 350 in powder blue - loved it - now I just drive VW for the last 20 years , and I’m just fine with this.
Compared to the UK/European Escorts, the early US versions (supposedly "Tailored for American buyers) were watered-down dogs - sloppy handling and gutless. I got a chance to test drive quite a few when they came out. At the time, I had a '68 Ford Cortina GT, and it drove like a small BMW compared to those Escorts!
I think that the popular criticism that “GM gets the car right, and then cancels it” is somewhat true in a lot of cases: Cimarron, Fiero, Allanté, etc. The problem is that, by the time they were “right,” they were also quite old and had, despite major improvements, fallen even further behind in the market. The Cimarron launched against the E21 3-Series and Mercedes-Benz W123. By 1988, the car was up against the legendary E30 and W201. There was nothing Cadillac could do to the already aging J-body (aging enough that the Opel/Vauxhall, Holden, and Isuzu versions would get all-new replacements in 1989) to make it a serious competitor to those two legends. And by the time GM got around to thoroughly reworking the J for 1995, the outgoing Cimarron would have been up against the E36 and W202. Oof. The irony of GM denying Cadillac an X variant because of capacity issues is that, by 1982, X-car sales had basically collapsed due to both poor reputation and internal competition from the new J and FWD A-bodies. So by 1982, capacity was abundant for a Cadillac variant. But by then it was far too late to change back to the old program. Also, what would have powered it? The HO 2.8L V6? That engine had issues with overheating and blown head gaskets at this point in its life, as well. Do you think an X-based Cimarron would have been more competitive? Or would it have been good enough to establish its own following apart from the segment BMW and Benz were creating?
If you could get your automotive contacts to give you an interview that would really be special. Insights into design at these levels are non-existent.
YES! If you know retired designers like Wayne Kady why not interview them? You could announce guests in advance so viewers can submit questions. Like your format. More pictures would be good IMO.
The BMW E30 was a small car that was perceived as more than the sum of its parts. Its technology is very similar to that of the Datsun 280Z or Maxima, but many of the four and six cylinder BMW 3 series were relatively underpowered. The 325-E motor was oriented to fuel economy, the later 325-I motor produced a decent amount of power, but by then the Japanese were building more powerful six cylinders. BMW sold more than 3 million E30s worldwide. The 3 series could be ordered with leather upholstery, but its interior wasn't all that great - its front suspension was the now common strut system, but it sure hit a target with car buyers that Cadillac seemed to be clueless at producing. A good part of that success was simply the styling was better. After Bill Mitchell retired at GM the cars didn't seem to look at nice. The Fox body Ford Mustang came closer to the E30 than anything else that a U.S. manufacturer produced, perhaps if Ford had build a smaller version of its Fox body Lincoln it might have succeeded where the Cimarron failed. Some of Chrysler's K car based cars are nicer than the Cimarron.
In 1983, the parents of my best friend in high school bought a left-over '82 Cimmarron. It had the 1.8 and a 4-speed manual. I remember not only was the engine slow and noisy, but the driveability was horrible, with frequent hesitation, sagging and stalling. The 4-speed manual-shift didn't help much, as the economy gearing made it like driving a 5-speed with no first gear. With so little torque, taking off from a stop, without cooking the clutch or killing the engine, was very difficult. Otherwise, to me it seemed like a pretty nice, comfortable car with an attractive interior, aside from the Cavalier-inspired instrument panel. But then I didn't have to pay $12K for the car. My friend's parents didn't either. The Maryland Eastern-Shore Caddy dealer couldn't sell the things, and discounted the price to well below $10K. I think they mostly liked the car, and Maryland's Eastern-Shore has few hills, but the dealer treated them shabbily when they needed repairs. So they traded it in on a new Subaru wagon and never looked back!
I started noticing Cadillac's in 1968. I was 4, my maternal grandfather passed in October, and the funeral home used a fleet of 67's. Next I remember an Olympic Bronze '67 Eldorado, parked in our neighborhood. I walked circles around that car and was hooked. Love '74-'78 Eldos, '75-'76 Coupe de Ville's and '75-'76 Electra's. My mothers new Pottery Gold Firemist '79 Seville sat proudly and elegantly in our driveway. Cadillac's were distinctive then. They had presence and pretense. When I saw the Cimarron, I didn't need to read any automotive reviews to know it was a mistake. Ditto the Cadillac Catera. Design draws customers. Engineering endures them. Enjoyed the discussion. Loved the Jay Leno and Ed Welborn story. 👍🏾🚘
Still have a 1967 Cadillac sales brochure I ordered from the factory at 11 years old and it had that year's Eldo pictured in Olympic Bronze. A real beauty. Our town wasn't big enough for a Cadillac dealership. Still can't remember how I got the mailing address for Caddy Headquarters, but I sent them a typed letter 🙂 Also ordered one from Citroen that same year.
There is a guy in my town who drives a citation. When I first saw it a few months ago I took a photo of it because I know how rare they are now. He probably thought I was a weirdo taking a picture of him driving by lol
I rarely comment on TH-cam, but I have to say, I found this very interesting, informative and enjoyable. No clickbait, no nonsense, just spot on friendly presentation. This will be over one million subscribers channel. Just wait and see.
What your channel always offers in spades are context and nuance, which is exactly what the story of the Cimarron needs. I was actually wondering earlier today what your thoughts were on the Cimarron- and now I have my answer! Personally, I do like the Cimarron. While it has its shortcomings, many of those can be found in almost all 1980s vehicles. I think the styling was quite good, given the era and the fact that they were forced to work with the J platform. The base price was far too high, and I think trying to market it against BMW and Audi was a big mistake. Cadillac should have sold the car on its own merits, and I suspect it would’ve attracted a fair number of customers looking for a comfortable ride in a smaller, more economical package. As they introduced more powerful power plants, I suspect the Cimarron may have become a more natural competitor to the import sports luxury makes, rather than being launched undercooked and already being compared to established models from very prestigious marques. In the long run, I understand why GM decided to kill the car, but I can’t help but feel that the car (or a successor on the same platform) could’ve become quite popular later in the 80s and into the 90s. A j-Platform Cadillac could’ve become a favorite to little old ladies in Florida who found the ‘full size’ DeVilles too large and overstuffed for their needs. I can’t imagine it going worse than the Catera incident later in the 90s. I’d be very interested to see what a X-Car Cimarron could've been. While I suspect it may have made for a ‘better’ product on the market, I suspect the recalls associated with that platofrm would’ve ended up hurting Cadillac’s reputation as much as, maybe even more than the J-based Cimarron. Being limited to low-powered engines would’ve again meant that Cadillac had no performance credentials for them to market against the Europeans with, and I feel like ultimately it would’ve flopped about the same. And even if a theoretical X-car Cimarron had come to market and been a successful, reliable car… the diesel engines, V8-6-4, and HT 4100 engines likely would’ve still put Cadillac in a rough spot. Their reputation seemed doomed to collapse even in the 70s, as their cars struggled to maintain the quality they’d had in the 60s and earlier. Thanks for taking the time to talk about the Cimarron, Adam! I’m definitely interested in seeing more car chats like this in the future! You bring a fantastic point of view to the discussion of these vehicles, and some interesting side information. The sales price differences between GM divisions over the years is really eye opening… no wonder every brand wanted their version of each platform, when they were so closely fighting for sales against one another, often with prices in the same ballpark. I’d also just like to say that Wayne Kady is an extremely talented designer and, aside from doing admirable work on the Cimarron, brought to life some of my favorite automotive designs out there (the ’71 Eldorado, while perhaps not as classically beautiful as the prior generation, is an extremely handsome and muscular looking luxury coupe). There is still plenty of appreciation out there for designs that are otherwise forgotten or ignored.
Yes, count me as one who appreciated this format. I have been amazed at how you find classic cars in such prestine, original condition, with all the hype of muscle cars (not that I don't enjoy them) your channel brings back fond memories of cars for us regular folk. I hope you will consider a segment dedicated to another luxury car failure, the Lincoln Versailles. As a once owner of a 1975 Mercury Monarch Ghia, the Versailles was an ambitious attempt downsizing the car, but failed miserably. Cheers!!
I've been seeing more content on Cimarrons lately. Big Al's auto just bought one at auction the other day. It's interesting to see how they've held up.
I love these history talks. Oddly enough, I'd like the history of the station wagon. You have your Mercury wagon which I'm waiting for a video on it. I grew up briefly with a station wagon, and I remember always liking it. It was a 1974 Plymouth. I'm sure that it has long succumbed to a demo derby now. From what I remembered, it was in great shape when my parents sold it in the mid eighties. In fact, my mom traded in her 67' Mustang for it because they decided to have us five kids. Being around six at the time they sold it, I still remember how smelled, how it rode, how the heavy doors closed, and even how my mom folded up and down the harassment seat in the back. The fact that a six year old cared to remember these details most mean something?
I grew up (at least in later childhood) riding in a '73 Gran Torino wagon. Literally five or six of the buddies and I piled into the back cargo area (no seats) and had a grand time. That car had the 428 V8, which I think was a Mustang or Thunderbird engine. That big thing MOVED like a Mustang, too.
The Cimarron - the car that REALLY killed Cadillac, I truly believe that Cadillac was never the same after this car. It takes courage to start a discussion on it! LOL But the fact is that GM at the time had faith in the car which is why they brought it out so it deserves a serious discussion Ultimately it shows how stupid and out of touch the management was at GM at the time, and the 80s were, I think we can all agree, the absolute lowest point at GM and in fact ALL American cars. But really this Cimarron was the worst, so clearly a lousy Cavalier which was ugly in itself so to build off that cheap crap was unforgivable for a Cadillac. Even the Lincoln Versailles was better and that's not saying much!
Totally agreed, the Cimarron didn't last mucn production to overcome the early Chevrolet Cavaliers. It required many mechanical improvements to stay alive.
Actually the Lincoln Versailles was a decent car...used car that is. Back in the early 90s, I knew a guy when I was in college who had a nice silver 302 car and never had any trouble with it. They were cheap and easy to find and most were well taken care of. If you were a college student and didn't mind a 4 door sedan, they were a decent buy.
People like to point the blame to the little Cimarron. One car did damage to a entire make? Sold 140k of them. No it was more attributed to all the awful engines post 1980, poor quality control, the 1986 Seville/eldo redesign, the allante, I can go on. A little car that nobody took seriously that lasted 7 model years is not what killed Cadillac
Thoroughly enjoyable discussion Adam! The Cimarron, I do be believe, was assembled in Lordstown, Ohio, where the Cavalier was assembled, with the motors built at Tonawanda Engine plant near Buffalo, and trucked down to Lordstown, a 190 mile or so trip. I drove trucks during the late 90's/early 2000's, drove quite a few loads of motors for new Cavaliers into Lordstown. Also owned a 2001 Cavalier Z24 until 2018, had the 2.4 liter four. This motor had 4 valves per cylinder, was a strong runner, nice mix of power/fuel economy☺
Adam, Awesome video. This took me back to the golden years, when my dad worked at GM and had a new company car every 3 months. I had the chance to experience so many GM cars from the late 70's to the late 80's. The Cimarron was a turd. Total embarrassment for GM and Cadillac. It was the joke of the town and brought Cadillac to a new low. We did have a Cavalier with a 2.0L manual transmission. It was actually a pretty good car, but rusted out. I used to drive that car back and fourth to MTU in the UP and had many hard core snowy drives. It never let me down. The X car wasn't bad. We had a Citation for a few months. It was ugly as sin, but very functional and roomy.
Interesting discussion, Mr. Adam. The eighties and nineties for GM was a time when it would introduce a new vehicle and then after a couple of years of worthy improvements the vehicle would be discontinued; the Pontiac Fiero (I got to singe the back of my had a little on an exhaust manifold of the V-6 in the Fiero when I did an oil change service at the Chevrolet dealership I worked at), 6000 STE, Cadillac Cimarron, Buick GNX, GMC Typhoon/Cyclone to just name a few. I never understood that kind of thinking. Back then as well I used to attend the “Snowbird Nationals” down in South Florida. There was a racer there one year with a Cadillac Cimarron and Seville he was running in the “Stock” class. The Cimarron had the 2.8 V-6 and with just the engine blueprinted, a little tune and small slicks on the front he had that Cimarron turning high 14’s in the 1/4 mile. The Seville had the 4.1 V-8 and with a similar set up to the Cimarron the Seville was turning low 14’s.
Hi Adam, I really enjoy your channel and I liked this chat format. I agree that Cadillac was a different car maker in the 50's and 60's. I think they kind of lost their way and vision in the late 80's and 90's but have done a pretty remarkable job at reinventing themselves to the current lineup. They seem quite successful but I agree that it is more of an ultimate driving performance machine vs. pure luxury but I think that is what the younger generation wants. Personally, my favorites are Cadillacs of the early to mid 70's. They scream excess and luxury. Thanks for sharing!
I can't imagine anyone cross-shopping a BMW/Mercedes with a J-car and driving home with the latter. I would wager that the majority of buyers were repeat Cadillac customers who weren't paying a lot of attention.
Glad you will be continuing your videos even though us Michiganders are hunkering down for the winter and your nice cars are tucked away from the snow and salt! Good topic! The Cimarron has always been a curiosity of mine, never liked it but gave Cadillac credit for trying something that small!
This is what I find interesting: The same year GM slapped a Cadillac badge on a Cavalier, there was a K car with a Chrysler Labaron badge on it and everyone was ok with it. I guess it goes back to your point in the New Yorker video that Chrysler had lost its way by then. I enjoyed this video!
I never took those Chrysler LeBaron K cars seriously. When I was 11, we went to a Dodge dealer to look at the K cars. I was shocked when I touched the bumper and it had plastic parts. After the 60s and 70s cars I was used to seeing which were strong and beefy, the K cars seemed almost like toys to me. And we ended up getting a used '73 Gran Torino wagon.
A Chrysler is not a Cadillac. If Chrysler took a Plymouth Reliant and turned it into an Imperial then that would be Chryslers version of the cinnamon problem.
Yes, do more videos of this format. You have such a depth of knowledge about my favourite automaker (GM). This type of video is easy to listen to while I am working and so much to learn!
From this former GM mechanics point of view the main difference between the Cimarron and any other J Plat was the abundance amount of sound deadening material which only made it much harder to work on when doing anything under the dash which the added electronics that it had made it more likely you would be doing under dash repairs.
The later 1987-1988 Cimarron was actually a really decent car with the 3.0 liter, digital dash, and updated front end that resembled the Deville of the time. I wouldn't mind owning one of those at all. But just like you said, it was too late by the time they finally got it right and the Cimarron was axed early in the 1988 model year, which is why they sold very few of them among other reasons as well. By the way, this was a great video of you discussing the history of this car, and will look forward to any future discussion related videos.
I have always found the Cimarron fascinating. I really don't know why but the car has always kind of spoken to me. I test drove an 85 with the V-6 once when I was a college student, and although it had some front-end issues, I found it rather pleasant. All those exposed screw-heads in the interior tho! Jeez. But, I dunno. It's just a compelling period for the US automotive industry for people who enjoy studying malaise and entropy. 😂
As a teenager, I wanted a Cimarron with the driving lights like in the ads. At that age, it was the right size to appeal to me. Although 15 year olds with no driver's license was likely not their target market. Disclaimer: I love unloved cars. At 17, I lusted after a Rover Sterling 827sli and I still want a Jag X6 Series III.
Where Cadillac went wrong was moving to front wheel drive which is considered an econobox drivetrain. Luxury and performance high end cars have rear wheel drive.
It failed because American auto executives have no idea how to design and build compact cars. No US car maker can compete with BMW, VW or Japanese car manufacturers in the small/medium car sector.
I enjoy your videos very much. As I watch them I wonder where you obtained your “insider” information, facts that very few other sources include. Yours is the best automobile source of all.
This theme is a great re-tool of your channel. This theme can go very far. Not only does it cover a history of marketing, but it also covers the economy, purchasing trends, engineering, and even geo-political discussion. I love your classic cars, but these discussions go much deeper, and your show is now more of a documentary. So now you have my attention, and I will be tuning-in.
Great background on the Cimarron! Would love to hear more about the Seville, 1st gen and bustle-back, which were also mentioned. The Cimarron was certainly not GM's finest hour but it's still fun to hear about how these cars came about. Thank you also for giving mention to the GM designers (stylists) involved, being in the business I've heard much about them.
Awesome videos I'll always love to listen to your expertise and also your personal comments on certain items or vehicles Thank you for sharing your knowledge
People still whine about this one. Yeah maybe not best decision by GM but not the end of the world. In fact I'd like to have one! I bet it's a decent little runner. Any Jaguar from same era is a steaming pile of you know what So there, detractors : P
The Cadillac string of failures: The Cimarron, the 4100Ht engine, the 4 6 8 engine, and the early Northstar engines. Good to see them making a comeback.
Hi Adam! Great historical overview of the Cadillac Cimarron. You know your stuff!!! :-) As a long-time Cadillac owner (my Dad also had Cadillacs from 1958 thru 2019) I have owned everything from the 472, to the HT4100, the 4.9 (which was an incredible engine and vehicle) to a Northstar. I had a 1985 Cimarron back then and I enjoyed the car for exactly what it was. Cadillac's version of the J-body. I'm SO glad you made mention that every single division had their version. (armchair critics of the Cimarron seem to forget that fact!) The Cimarron was the perfect urban Cadillac for the times back then. Living in the city then it worked out great. It was the best handling car in the snow! We had experienced a huge snow storm during the day - large drifts and heavy. I came home from work to find cars buried and stuck in the driveway of the condo building I was living in at the time. I thought to myself "no way will I make it to my carport in the back", but I decided to try anyway. I felt guilty as I slowly drove around the cars that were stuck...and right into my carport space! Also I never had any issues with any of the Cadillacs - even the HT4100. Style-wise the 1985 Cimarron looked more like a Cadillac than previous years and could easily tell the "family" resemblance. Again, great info on the Cimarron. Enjoy your channel very much!
Nice “fireside” chat! I always thought the Cimarron was not really a Cadillac! Your thorough and persuasive information confirms that belief! Keep the fireside chats coming!
I really enjoyed the Cimarron Snow Side chat Adam! Your knowledge and casual delivery are so enjoyable. Having driven the '82 Cavalier as a 20 something, I hated that 1.8. I can't imagine it in the Cimarron. Did drive the '88 v6 and there was much improvement - then - as you said, cancelled. Love the 60's caddy's as well and even early 70's depending on smog - just not the same today. Thank you as always - keep up the amazing work. - Mark Edward Sanderson
You are an irreplaceable automotive resource. I can't believe you have that gold Cimmaron plaque. Please make more of these videos. Please thank Wayne for his work. I love the bustle back Seville.
Excellent content! This is extremely interesting for car aficionados, especially those interested in classic American autos. Also appreciate the relaxed and unpretentious presentation. A robust thanks to you is my inducement for you to continue this informative and entertaining program.
A high school friend’s father owned a Cadillac dealership. One day instead of the Corvette (!) his 18 year old self usually drove, he come over to my house in a fresh off the truck 1985 Cimarron D’Oro with the 2.8 MPI and a $15K sticker “just cuz”. I thought the industrial-strength gold was a bit much but at least it drove halfway decently. The engine was well-suited to the J platform.
I never ever knew that the X-car platform was first considered for the Cimarron. What a knee slapper! I remember all too well when this car came out I was so excited to read the car magazine reviews. I thought Cadillac had hit another home run... and then I read the reviews. My excitement crashed and burned faster than the Hindenburg. I could not believe Cadillac was seriously trying to compete against Audi, BMW, and Mercedes with this rolling joke. Imagine the reactions of the engineers of German and Japanese car makers must have had when saw this vehicle! No wonder the big three got their buts serious kicked to the side of the road. Adams's comment on GM finally getting a car right in its last model year and then canceling it is/was so typical of GM. Glad those days are over. Another great video by Adam!
Once upon a time I worked at a tire shop, didn't know these even existed, one came in and I immediately recognized it as a cavalier with leather... It caused some kind of schism, was in disbelief that they would/could even produce this. That said your vid gives it some context, thanks.
Yes, Adam these new video series are for sure exciting and a must. Please consider future videos on Cadillac commercial chassis and the history and how these were HD cars with better warranties and such. Limo, hearses, diplomatic cars, etc. Cadillac and the quest for better mpg after the fuel crisis- smaller engines, Diesel options, 4.3 V6 and the 5.7 Diesel, Displacement on demand V-4-6-8, digital fuel injection in the mid 70s, smaller "less heavy" direction starting the in mid 70s, etc. Also do autopsy or analysis videos on what killed certain lines like the Eldorado, the big RWD Fleetwood, the struggles with the 4100 and Northstar quality issues, and the switch over to SUV/Trucks and how the brand had to reidentify with the new customer bases and what does an "all electric offerings" really means for Cadillac and if they will kill off the remaining cars and maybe keep one car, an exotic low volume Cadillac based off the Corvette as the flagship? production limited to say 500 and msrp at $500,000 0-60 mph in 1.6 sec all electric at all 4 wheels. Also remember the Cadillac Catera. The role the Seville tried to fulfill in 1975, and the life and mission of the Seville and if you think it was successful in the mission? I think your channel base is most hungry for mid 1960s to mid 90s content. Consider the mission of the big RWD Cadillac cars like the Fleetwood Brougham and the demise in 1996 and why? Consider mentioning the special trims like the Talisman packages and even rare options like the ACRS " the crash air bags found in the 70s"... Also do you feel that say Buick Park Avenue customers would have cross shopped to a Sedan Deville and vice versa? say we are looking at a 1978 model year, customer confusion? Olds 98, park Avenue, Sedan Deville, Fleetwood? I personally feel the mid to late 60s was Cadillacs best years and that is when they made the most "highest quality" cars and were truly the global leader in luxury, craftsmanship, and ambition. Definitely consider an ACRS video as most people do not even know that ACRS was and or that GM sold 10,000 cars back in the time period 1974-76 with crash air bags. If I don't say "crash", everyone assumes suspension air bags for air ride, not crash air bags. Great idea of you Adam to do these new conversation series videos. Consider say going over an old sales brochure and reading out of it with photos put on on the screen, say reading a 1968 Cadillac dealer sales brochure and an in-depth look at the options and colors and who was the target customers?
Adam, I like everything you do... I hope your subscribership continues to grow by leaps and bounds. It's an intelligent, relaxing guilty pleasure to experience your videos. God Bless!
GM did more self inflicted damage than any competitor ever could have dreamed of doing to it. It's worst enemies were within the organization.
In those days, GM management was unrivaled at taking great designs and nickel and diming them into unrecognizable piles of $hit.
@@bobdepaola7828 At GM even the robots went on strike.
@@CamaroSS-sy2ei BEAN COUNTERS and EPA are to thank.., OH, and being slaves to the unions... Gasp, I said it@!
GM: engineered by accountants.
Amen. GM thought the buying public would purchase whatever they threw together because they were #1. They prepared the way for Japan to begin taking market share they're not giving back
I was gifted a 1987 model by a elderly neighbor that could no longer drive.
I had been doing household chores for years such as mowing her lawn shoveling her sidewalk and driveway and cleaning her gutters.
It was in my parents driveway when we got home from my birthday dinner.
The keys and title were with the card.
It had just had a full service and detail as well as new tires.
It had been meticulously maintained and garaged it's whole life and only had 10,485 miles.
I drove it all through the remainder of high school college and veterinary school.
Never failed to start or left me stranded.
With the V6 engine it was fairly quick.
Not the greatest car I have ever owned but hardly the POS urban legend suggests.
It was rear ended by a Ram pickup truck with 245k miles and everything but the cassette player still worked.
They Were Babies. If One Would Take Good Care Of Them, They We’re The Coolest Cars.
People Though I Had More Money, Than Sense. Preppy.🦊
Hello Adam. I arrived in Detroit the summer of 1985 as a newly graduated engineer at Chrysler. I was a car crazed young man to say the least. With that in mind, I can't get enough of the American car industry from that time and my formative years growing up in the 1970s. Keep these car chats coming and I will watch, enjoy and "like" them. I also greatly appreciate your collection of low mileage American cars from the 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. It is all interesting and very nostalgic to me. Thank you.
@ Anthony Barr
So you're one of the ones who designed and built all that garbage that came out of Detroit in the 80s huh? And you consider yourself to be a engineer? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So you came onboard during Iacocca’s K-Car expansion. That was an interesting time for Chrysler, and some of the cars were interesting.
I bought a LeBaron (J-body), and loved it. It was a very stable platform, drove exceptionally well for an FWD vehicle of that era, and was economical.
The only regret I have is not opting for the V-6 over the turbo engine; the turbo-4 was a bit unrefined (NVH - noise, vibration, harshness was typical of an in-line-4 without balance shafts), though with port injection, the car ran flawlessly for over 100k miles.
I find those years to be a renaissance after the malaise-era, most of improvements owing to the adoption and refinement of fuel injection and engine control systems that we all take for granted these days.
Adam, you should do a video about the 6000STE. We had an early 1983 model which had rear drums, carbureted 2.8, no digital dash and 14” SE wheels. All things that were changed later. It was worthy of the C&D 10 best list because it handled great. I haven’t seen one in 20+ years.
@@geoben1810 nice....
You should email this channel and collaborate with Adam on an interview....?
The encyclopedic knowledge of the subject matter is always impressive to say the least. Extremely interesting
agreed
The greatest gift the Cimmaron gave the world is all the videos and analysis almost 40 years later trying to figure out how it could have ever been released!
I remember my dad taking in a brown Cadillac Cimarron 5-speed in on trade at our car lot. I couldn't have been more than 6 or 7 years old. He pulled it into the back (where our 1960 Eldorado Seville was sitting). Even as a child, I knew something had gone very, very wrong over at Cadillac.
And GM as a whole...
A stick shift Cimarron was a rare car then almost non-existent now.
GM went downhill when they combined everything. Pontiacs, Buicks and Oldsmobiles became essentially the exact same cars with different names. Some of the Chevys also were just the same. That 1980's G body was the worst piece of crap ever. Think Regal, Monte Carlo, Cutlass, Grand Prix etc.
I wondered why GM was calling a Chevy Cavalier a Cadillac. And I was also just a kid, like yourself. It made no sense to me at the time.
@@perryegolson833 Yes. Chrysler did it too. The came out with an Imperial around 1985 which was just a dressed up Lebaron piece of crap!
Adam, Really like the “on the porch” chat style. Definitely would hope there are more to come.
In discussing the Cimarron, in addition to the great information you provided, there are a couple of other factors that greatly influenced, and ultimately doomed that car.
Roger Smith was chairman of GM at the time of the Cimarron. I understand he was hawkish about expenses. You mentioned the 1.8 being a “parts bin” engine. I’m betting those engineers were told something like, “make us an all new engine, but it has to be from stuff we already make. No budget for engineering new components.” I’d be willing to bet Cadillac would have done a lot different to the J body if it could have. They had to know, in fact how they badged the car indicated they did, that Cimarron would always be “the red-headed step child” of Cadillac (No disrespect to red-heads or step children).
I think the second factor was CAFE. As the standards rose in the ‘80’s, how do you get Cadillac in compliance without alienating its customer base? Maybe they were hoping Cimarron would bring some buyers into the fold that would move enough to help offset those that wanted the big “gas guzzling” traditional Cadillac. That would certainly make getting to the CAFE number easier.
People actually bought these cars and had to drive them. Did they fell better about their vehicle because they were happy to help out so someone could drive a gas guzzler?
I think this format compliments the other content quite nicely. This is by far my favorite car channel, not only because of the cars featured, but also because of the information and history provided. Exceptional job you’ve done here!
I've always thought Cimarron sounded more like the name of a breakfast item at Taco Bell than a car.
I always like Cimarron on my french toast.
On many warranty Ro's at the Dealership under model it would have a big handwritten "CC"
Agreed , and it had the sheetz !
Mel Blanc played a guy who called cinnamon rolls "cimmaron" rolls as a running gag on the "Jack Benny Show".
Hmmm, so what you're saying is that BMW & Mercedes were like Breakfast At Tiffany's and the Cimarron was like Breakfast At Taco Bell.
My Dad's friend had a 1987 Cadillac Cimarron...V6 with a 5 speed manual....silver with a gray interior. Dad also purchased a Pontiac 6000 LE about the same time and thought it was better value. I recall him joking about his friend's Cimarron being a fancy Cavalier. I think later in the production run, they engineered enough differentiation into the Cimarron but it was too late.
My Dad's friend lived close to the Minneapolis St. Paul Airport and I used to stay at their house anytime I would fly out of town., He took me to the airport in the Cimarron and I thought it was a nice car...and being 21 years old at that time, I thought it was a classy way to get to the airport. Of course, my car at the time was a 79 Olds Cutlass with the fastback....I remember Dad's friend taking the keys to the car and saying, "I'll keep that buggy in the garage." Another family friend joked that he thought it was so ugly he wanted to hide it from the neighbors.
In hindsight, I think Cadillac should have based the Cimarron on the A Body front drive platform...which was tuned for decent performance with the 6000 STE. It would have had more space and immediately been available with a larger V6 and size wise would have been better matched for the BMWs and Audis of the day.
The A platform wasn't quite a thing yet when Cimmerons went into production... But I agree that would have been a good "budget Caddy" body. They even touched on AWD with that one.
Cadillac should stop trying to compete with the Germans, it’s hopeless. Just do what they’re good at and make beautiful, massive, luxurious, powerful and COMFORTABLE cars. They’ve permanently lost their way. I have a 76 Fleetwood Brougham and a 2006 Escalade ESV Platinum. The 76 is much more comfortable and smoother riding, has a 3” longer wheelbase and is longer overall as well. The Escalade is a truck.
@@MrSpartanPaul an escalade is just a dolled up suburban
I like these chat sessions as your detailed account of historical and technical information is wonderful. The longer the better also. Thank you sir!
Interesting line of discussion, Adam. The Cimarron epitomizes all of what went wrong at GM in that era. It seems hard to believe when one realizes that Pete Estes was the CEO, being a highly-regarded engineer with a good track record. But he apparently wasn't willing or able to stand up to the Chairman, Roger Smith, and the rest of Smith's fellow 14th floor execs when it came to bean-counting taken to the extreme as Smith wanted, in order to allow him to engage in flights of fancy like Saturn and the purchase of EDS from Ross Perot. GM's cars in that era suffered greatly as a result of that cost-cutting. It seemed that any modicum of sense disappeared when someone undoubtedly stood up in a meeting and said the Cimarron would sticker for over $12K, and that got approval. What were they thinking? The customer research, if any was even done on that point, must have been something to see.
Of course it wasn't just the Cimarron, although that is the likely poster child for this era. You mentioned some other examples, like the 1.8 engine itself, the Olds diesel that was rushed into production, and the pair of Cadillac mysteries, the V8-6-4 and the HT4100. There were also various forgettable rush jobs like the shrunken Chevy small-block, the sawed-off V8s that became V6s and no doubt others. All of those engine programs were done to try to accommodate the CAFE regulations that were coming up and getting more stringent with time. GM's answer wasn't to develop more advanced, more efficient engines, but instead to reduce output and achieve fuel economy targets using existing pushrod engine technologies, presumably to save money. The result was a product line across the company that was saddled with underpowered, undersized engines. The early '80s were a bad time to be buying almost any GM car, although the other domestics weren't much better off. It seemed like all of the engineers they used to have who knew how to develop engines were no longer there. I would love to hear the discussions around the executive table that led to the HT4100 program at Cadillac back then. It astounds me that anyone would green-light a new pushrod engine program in that era. There were lots of reasons for the decline of GM that go beyond just that, but you can see the lack of vision and how poorly they understood their customers as an overriding factor.
A lot of the HT4100 Cadillacs had second life with 307 olds power under the hood, not sure if a lot of dealerships did that to appease pissed off customers or if they opted for it out of pocket but once put those in there you can't kill them... but at least with further development what culminated in the 4.9 at least measured up in terms of quality and durability compared to the original HT4100...
The GM board room was definitely a fool's paradise for many years
Hello Adam. Greetings from Prague (CZE). I just got into US cars this year and I am learning loads of stuff from your car videos. This format is exactly what I was looking for to fully understand how it all worked with the big three and all the brands they had. The more inside information the better:-) If you ever managed to make an interview with anyone from the car manufacturing, that would be just perfect. Thank you for this high quality content and all the best!
I have owned my fair share of American, German and Japanese vehicles (28 and counting). Some of my fondest memories was when I was a GM technician in the 1980's at a Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC Dealer. The first car that I bought after graduating high school in 1980 was a 1974 White Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. I felt like a Senator driving the car to work. The ride, comfort and smooth power was unbeatable. Yes, times have changed, I am a Lexus fan now, but those GM days I will not soon forget. Thank you for triggering my memory with your excellent website!
I was just going to comment yesterday that it had been weeks since we had seen your face in a video, and voila! Here you are. So thank you. For those of us who like the charming delivery along with the awesome automotive knowledge. This chat format is amazing as is your level of detail. As Tina Turner would say.."You're simply the best"
I couldn't agree more. He's "simply the best"!
Adam does a great job indeed...Works hard on historical research, and presents in an unbiased/fair manner.
Do a first generation Seville. THAT would be interesting.
@@bobdepaola7828 Very little of the Nova, closely based on the second generation Camaro, actually was used in Seville. The suspension, considered well sorted at the time, was about it. The only sheet metal shared was the floor of the trunk.
I personally consider the Oldsmobile engine used in Seville to be superior to Cadillac engines.
One of my favorite cars, still looks amazing today. Perfect size, elegant and stylish.
@@thomasalexander9393 I agree! Classic styling and proportions.
I owned a 77. Still my most fav car.
@@bobdepaola7828 only the trunk pan was from Nova LOL
I think if Cadillac could have released the Cimarron as it looked in '88 as an '82 or '83 model it would have sold much better.
Ironically I owned a 1988 Cadillac Cimarron 5 speed model. Mine was 1 of 111 made for the final 1988 model year. Car was fully loaded except for the digital dash and astroroof options. It was medium blue over silver, tu tone paint scheme, and looked absolutely stunning. With the 5 speed manual transmission and the 2.8 V6, this car would move. I bought it used from a local Cadillac Dealer in Mount Kisco, N.Y. as it was a trade in from its original owner. It had 50,000 original miles in 1994 when I bought it. I drove it to 284,000 miles on the original engine and one replacement clutch. Best car I ever owned. Never left me stranded and got lots of compliments(yes compliments) everywhere I went. The only reason I junked the car in 2003 was because my wife told me it needed to be replaced due to its age/mileage. Should have never junked that car. Mine was one of the rarest of the 1981-1988 run because of the driveline combination. Luckily I took digital pictures of the 5 speed in its console because nobody believes me that they made a 5 speed Cadillac.
That’s awesome.
Adam, what a great video. Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately, I didn't work on the Bonneville, but did work on a number of Pontiacs in the '80's-'00's. I thought the '11 CTS Coupe, Wagon & '08 Sedans redeemed my performance after the Cimarron! debacle. Hopefully you might agree. The Cimarron project was doomed from the very start. I was Wayne Kady's Asst. Chief and was assigned the Cimarron being the 'new guy' in the studio. What a disaster from the beginning. No time. No money. Panic in Detroit as it were. As you correctly pointed out, the J Body was the wrong choice to begin with. We tried to tell management that it would never work if we only added a fascia and some trim, but no one wanted to hear that. The 8-6-4, the Cadillac Diesel & the Cimarron were the beginnings of Cadillac's problems. 0-60 in 16 seconds! Seriously! Plenty of stories, but we'll stop there. Thanks again for your insightful comments. History.
Thanks, John, for the kind comments. I’ll make a note in the video description about the Bonneville.
I think any reasonable person, understanding the constraints imposed upon the designers, would be able to discern why the product came out as it did. My goal was to let the avg person understand that a bit more. I say this being a former GM finance executive and having empathy for the design folks. I do love a number of the Pontiacs in the era you mention, and as mentioned, love the second gen CTS in all forms. My wife had one for some time.
Drop me a line sometime. Would be fun to have a finance vs design chat w some former GM folks. I lived and worked in the US, Canada and Brazil for GM.
Thanks again, take care, and awesome work.
Adam
Rareclassiccars@yahoo.com
The 08 CTS is the best looking sedan of this century. Alas, the seats don't fit me (few do).
@@ralphl7643 Thank you! Sorry the seats wouldn't fit.
John, it is good to hear from someone who was at GM Design in the midst of this program and was able to attest to the red flags being ignored by the higher-ups. I believe this happened in the Rybicki era of GM Design and I gather he was not one to assert himself or confront the higher-ups the way Mitchell would have done. A different era for sure. Shortly thereafter we had the cookie-cutter FWD A-car program which, while better cars, did damage to the GM brands by looking so much alike at the behest of management to save money on tooling. Things continued out of balance as time went on unfortunately. I drove '77-'85 B and C-body RWD cars as long as I could until Design finally started to recover and I bought an Intrigue, a Regal, and most recently a pair of Cadillac ATS sedans, which I think is one of the best-looking cars GM has produced so far in this century.
@@ab348 Yes, those were troubled/interesting times. Mostly bad for GM the corporation. cant blame Rybicki however for all that ensued. Post Mitchell, it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge, things were headed south as it were.
Great format, I like hearing and reliving the history of GM. I remember those days quite vividly. Word on the street back then, the Cimarron was a joke! On the other hand, the Chevy Caprice was highly regarded as a very reliable, comfortable family car that was also a good value for the money.
Yes, you couldn't go wrong with a Caprice! Classy styling, well built and comfortable car. Still see the occasional one around. Can't say the same for the Cimarron!
@@bobjohnson205 There is actually a Cimarron around the next street from me. It hasn't moved in at least 20 years, but it exists.
The Caprice was a durable and comfortable car that would do anything you asked of it. Rock solid inside and out. Shame GM stopped making them.
The GM Ripoff! It was basic Cavalier, Firenze etc...just added some plush options and Caddilac name plate! I remember that car!!
Yes indeed the most fanciest cavalier you could buy 😂😂
Right down to the anemic engine other than a leather wrap steering wheel leather seats and a Cadillac badge oh my God.
It was almost as embarrassing as the first time they brought back the Dodge charger name in the Dodge Omni charger
@@truckerkevthepaidtourist I have a friend who worked in sales at the Cadillac dealersship in those days. He and many of sales people constantly heard from former Cadillac owners from as far back as the 1940's that how "Cheap" GM had gone! Many would go to Mercedes Benz and other luxury brands.
I remember my parents friends had a new at the time 1985 Cimmaron. Any new car was pretty sweet for a 5th grader. 🤷♂️
You can call these winter-weather episodes "Adam's Fireside Car Chats" 👌
I enjoyed your over view of the Cimmarron story. I owned two Cavaliers and a partner had a Cimmarron, so I lived with these cars. I also was fortunate enough to get a summer job at the GM Tech Center in Warren. I worked in the J car production engineer group and was tasked with closing out all the reported problems from the pilot build. I literally went and found all the product engineers who's part had some sort of difficulty in assembly or from the reliability validation of the pilot vehicles. I was there in 84 and stuffing a V-6 into the Cimmarron was something that presented several challenges.
Hey Adam. I started my career in automotive as a service advisor at a Cadillac store in 1984. A big Cadillac guy… loved them. But I remember the general feeling in us (service staff) at the time, and the Cimmaron wasn’t well regarded. I feel it missed the mark for the power issue and the fro t wheel drive. May have done better with a rear drive platform. As a drivers car standpoint. Anyway love the history and styling discussions. Keep it up.
The GM board of directors had outlawed thinking that went beyond the monthly sales charts at the time.
I discovered your channel by chance and subscribed immediately. I am thrilled with the cars you present, these are exactly the years of construction that impress me the most. I live in Germany and have so far driven exclusively American cars, starting with a 1979 Camaro Berlinetta and then a 1972 Chrysler Newport, which I bought in NC and took with me to Germany.
I have the greatest respect for the designer of the second generation Cadillac Seville. I myself owned a 1984 Seville Elegante, bought used in Florida and took it with me to Germany and drove there for several years until another driver drove into my side. After that, I still had a 1989 Fleetwood Sixty Special that felt technical progress, but my heart still hangs on Seville. By the way, both were very economical, I was able to drive them on the highway at 37 Mpg. Today I drive a used Tesla Model S and don't want to miss it anymore. But I think that the old Cadillacs and Tesla have a lot in common. Only that the Cadillacs were more comfortable to spring. Please keep up the good work and maybe you'll bring something about the second generation Seville.
I was in high school and my friend's mom came home with a new Cimarron. I remember thinking, wow - it's a Cavalier with power seats!! Never did understand this car. Great background here! Love your commentaries. More please!
I knew a guy who had one in about 1986. Even he said it was a Chevy with leather seats.
All sorts of "new to the J car" electronics and dash that caused a LOT of warranty Headaches.. I know, I had to fix them... The engine ( first 2 years anyway) was same as the mail trucks, run forever, and not much power.
But you could get a Cavalier with power seats. Once a dog, always a dog. My wife worked with a woman who bought a new Cimarron. After all the paint peeled off and she couldn’t keep a steering rack in it that worked she gave up and bought a decent car, a new Camry. She drove the Camry for 10 trouble free years. Need I say more?
I was 9 years old, about to turn 10, when the Citation was introduced and I loved that platform. When the Cimarron came out I hated it. Cadillacs were NOT supposed to be tiny. Of course, my understanding of the sticker price and cost of vehicles was minimal in those days, but I never took that car seriously.
The first car my grandfather drove or tried to drive was a 1912 (?) Cadillac. He was around eight years old and got a good licking from the family's chauffer. He graduated from college in 1926 and was gifted a new Cadillac. During the Depression and WWII he kept a lower profile. Post War back to Cadillacs and a Muntz Jet for fun. In 1963 a beautiful Rivera but he deemed it too low to the ground and went to an all white Deville with white leather interior and black cloth inserts.. The 1968 Eldorado was beautiful but was hit by an ambulance that ran a red light without a siren or flashing lights on. He took a cab to the Cadillac dealer and got a 1970 Deville. That was the only car of his that I drove but it was a solid, well put together automobile. They have not kept up. Different times. I rambled but I like this video. I remember when the Cimarron came out and it just showed how off the mark GM was. Thanks keep them coming.
Great Video.
People who hate these small Cadillac cars just simply have not driven one and researched them and looked at the actual competition of the time for an apples to apples comparison and considered what the new younger Cadillac customers were seeking. Smaller, more sporty, better handling, better performance, better mpg, etc.
In the last run of these Cimmarrons they were actually very good cars and with the V6 and stick shift, they were actually fast cars. They had very comfortable seats in top trim and lots of neat gadgetry including fog lights, digital dash, and a neat overhead console . I wish GM had optioned the Cimarron with a European turbo diesel... Remember how sensitive the buying public was to gasoline prices at this time and a small 35 real world combined mpg diesel would have been the icing on the cake.
Adam -This is what makes this one of my favorite channels, your approach is always unique and interesting. Keep up the great work, and definitely continue this format.
i really like this format! these intersperced with your regular format will get us through the winter. Your knowledge is amazing.
I enjoyed your recounting/history of the Cimarron. I began driving in 1971 and always had an eye for Cadillacs. I remember when the Seville was introduced in 1975 and didn't become a fan of it until they gave it a decent grille and then introduced the Elegante edition in black and silver with genuine wire wheels. That car still turns heads. I've read that the only part of the Seville that was attributable to the Nova platform was the front subframe, all else was specific to the Seville. Everyone was concerned about fuel mileage in those days and a few mpg was a big marketing thing. Lincoln copied Cadillac's formula and turned the Granada into the Versailles. They did their best to make it look fancy, but it didn't fool many people. I'd still take a Seville, but not a Versailles. When the Cimarron was introduced, it was in the malaise era - there just wasn't anything exciting to be had. Your remark about the Caprice being a better car and bargain was exactly right. The Cimarron fooled nobody. It was obviously a rush job and I never could understand how they could get it so wrong. While the Seville was loved, the Cimarron was reviled. I'm afraid I must concur with your assessment of Cadillac. They lost it somewhere about 1972/1973 in my opinion. Their cars were well built and reliable to that point. The v8/6/4 was a disaster, so was the HT4100, and the Northstar. It's too bad for certain, because Cadillac once knew and ruled their market.
For a long time I wondered why GM did not use the front-wheel drive X body or the A body that was derived from it and introduced in the 1982 model year for the Cadillac Cimarron. Thanks for making this
great chat - thanks for sharing! I'm looking forward to the next one
I can hear these interesting stories for hours and hours, effortlessly…
Absolutely love this format! (Please add lighting!)
The first problem with the Cimarron was in 1982 when it came out it had a 88hp 1.8 4 cylinder. On paper in 82 that was ok. The problem was in the first year it had only a 2.6 axle ratio making it terribly slow. They somewhat correct it in 83 by adding the 2.0 and they upped the axle ratio to 3.42. No gain in power but the taller ratio helped. It wouldn't have been a better car on the X platform it took GM about 4 years to straighten out the quality issues they had. Like you stated the 84 85 X cars were decent they canceled them. In a way the N cars shared alot of the X cars. Great conservation!
Keep in mind Chevy was dictating driveline in '82 and 3 and CAFE AVG was important.
Actually, I believe the N/L's were more J-Car than X car.
Thanks Adam.
These videos are a great idea to share your knowledge.
You come across as a really pleasant person.
When I had my 1967 'Frankenstein' Canadian Pontiac running today, you came to mind!!
Great video covering a car that in the 80’s, I never would of thought somebody would want to remember. But it’s a good historical business story.
I still kind of want one - but the 87-88 V6 and 5 speed - they were beginning to get it right. But in 82, against an Audi 4000 - real German experience, but a little Spartan - or the newly revamped and much more powerful & loaded Maxima, hah. Fun fact - first Caddy since 67 with crank windows standard. Interesting that the J cars were actually more expensive than the X cars - they were trying to be a Honda Accord. Unfortunately, GM was just hopeless in the early 80s, but then so was Detroit, generally. They really sowed the seeds of their own destruction and in a larger sociological context it's a great shame for America. We had (still have?) no ability to think long term', labor exacerbated it, shareholders drove it and upper management featherbedded. But I'm way off topic now.
Given there were not that many sold in those years and that 98% of them have long hit the wrecking yard, it will probably be a hard find.
Very interesting discussion and behind the scenes information and retrospectives. Worked at Cadillac from 88-91…we called the Cimmaron our Cavalier with chrome. The final car was literally put in a crate (really) and housed at the old Clark Street facility where I worked at the time along with last ‘76 Eldorado convertible produced that got the same storage treatment. I’ve been told that both cars are still in GM’s heritage collection.
Well Adam I love your new twist to your videos - looking forward to the next one - as always . My memories are all stirred up by the complete mess GM made of the early entries with this size of vehicle - in 1983 - fresh off the boat as they say at the age of 26 from the UK, we purchased two models, the Oldsmobile Frienza and a Chevy Cavalier - what a complete waste of money - the Olds and Chevy were a mishmash of Isuzu and Opel parts. Both spent many many days of their warranty period in the custody of the dealerships . I did have fun with the local GM senior management driving both vehicles back to back, the Olds was the worst for shifting and starting. I was told formally by GM - “ my expectations was too high, because I was comparing them against my previous Triumph Dolimite and Ford Escort “ - Wow ! The reason for the Wow, the Triumph was a 1500cc and the Escort a 1300cc, and obviously, nowhere near the size of the GM offerings at 2000cc. So, I moved both vehicles over to - wait for the face slap 🤦🏼♂️ - a pair of the new Ford Tempo’s at 2300cc sizing - and so, my North American vehicle dream is shattered - just till I purchased an older 1976 Chevy Malibu with a 350 in powder blue - loved it - now I just drive VW for the last 20 years , and I’m just fine with this.
Compared to the UK/European Escorts, the early US versions (supposedly "Tailored for American buyers) were watered-down dogs - sloppy handling and gutless. I got a chance to test drive quite a few when they came out. At the time, I had a '68 Ford Cortina GT, and it drove like a small BMW compared to those Escorts!
The array of what looks like car care products(?) on the shelf in your garage is amazing!
Buyer: Whats the difference between a Cavalier and a Cimarron?
GM Engineer: About $4,000!
By "GM Engineer," you mean "GM Accountant," right? 😉
I think that the popular criticism that “GM gets the car right, and then cancels it” is somewhat true in a lot of cases: Cimarron, Fiero, Allanté, etc. The problem is that, by the time they were “right,” they were also quite old and had, despite major improvements, fallen even further behind in the market. The Cimarron launched against the E21 3-Series and Mercedes-Benz W123. By 1988, the car was up against the legendary E30 and W201. There was nothing Cadillac could do to the already aging J-body (aging enough that the Opel/Vauxhall, Holden, and Isuzu versions would get all-new replacements in 1989) to make it a serious competitor to those two legends. And by the time GM got around to thoroughly reworking the J for 1995, the outgoing Cimarron would have been up against the E36 and W202. Oof.
The irony of GM denying Cadillac an X variant because of capacity issues is that, by 1982, X-car sales had basically collapsed due to both poor reputation and internal competition from the new J and FWD A-bodies. So by 1982, capacity was abundant for a Cadillac variant. But by then it was far too late to change back to the old program. Also, what would have powered it? The HO 2.8L V6? That engine had issues with overheating and blown head gaskets at this point in its life, as well.
Do you think an X-based Cimarron would have been more competitive? Or would it have been good enough to establish its own following apart from the segment BMW and Benz were creating?
If you could get your automotive contacts to give you an interview that would really be special. Insights into design at these levels are non-existent.
I agree
YES! If you know retired designers like Wayne Kady why not interview them? You could announce guests in advance so viewers can submit questions. Like your format. More pictures would be good IMO.
The word Cimarron is not spoken at General Motors "Company" ( was General Motors Corporation)
The BMW E30 was a small car that was perceived as more than the sum of its parts. Its technology is very similar to that of the Datsun 280Z or Maxima, but many of the four and six cylinder BMW 3 series were relatively underpowered. The 325-E motor was oriented to fuel economy, the later 325-I motor produced a decent amount of power, but by then the Japanese were building more powerful six cylinders. BMW sold more than 3 million E30s worldwide. The 3 series could be ordered with leather upholstery, but its interior wasn't all that great - its front suspension was the now common strut system, but it sure hit a target with car buyers that Cadillac seemed to be clueless at producing. A good part of that success was simply the styling was better. After Bill Mitchell retired at GM the cars didn't seem to look at nice.
The Fox body Ford Mustang came closer to the E30 than anything else that a U.S. manufacturer produced, perhaps if Ford had build a smaller version of its Fox body Lincoln it might have succeeded where the Cimarron failed. Some of Chrysler's K car based cars are nicer than the Cimarron.
Those K-Bodied aero-looking LeBarons of the late 80s were sleek and reliable.
Thank you yet again! I love this format. Keep 'em coming
In 1983, the parents of my best friend in high school bought a left-over '82 Cimmarron. It had the 1.8 and a 4-speed manual. I remember not only was the engine slow and noisy, but the driveability was horrible, with frequent hesitation, sagging and stalling. The 4-speed manual-shift didn't help much, as the economy gearing made it like driving a 5-speed with no first gear. With so little torque, taking off from a stop, without cooking the clutch or killing the engine, was very difficult.
Otherwise, to me it seemed like a pretty nice, comfortable car with an attractive interior, aside from the Cavalier-inspired instrument panel. But then I didn't have to pay $12K for the car. My friend's parents didn't either. The Maryland Eastern-Shore Caddy dealer couldn't sell the things, and discounted the price to well below $10K. I think they mostly liked the car, and Maryland's Eastern-Shore has few hills, but the dealer treated them shabbily when they needed repairs. So they traded it in on a new Subaru wagon and never looked back!
GM seems to have a habit of killing cars just when they finally get it right. The Fiero is a top example.
I think I have read your comment before. You sure do speak the truth with 1980’s GM.
I started noticing Cadillac's in 1968. I was 4, my maternal grandfather passed in October, and the funeral home used a fleet of 67's.
Next I remember an Olympic Bronze '67 Eldorado, parked in our neighborhood. I walked circles around that car and was hooked. Love '74-'78 Eldos, '75-'76 Coupe de Ville's and '75-'76 Electra's.
My mothers new Pottery Gold Firemist '79 Seville sat proudly and elegantly in our driveway. Cadillac's were distinctive then. They had presence and pretense.
When I saw the Cimarron, I didn't need to read any
automotive reviews to know it was a mistake. Ditto the Cadillac Catera.
Design draws customers. Engineering endures them.
Enjoyed the discussion. Loved the Jay Leno and Ed Welborn story. 👍🏾🚘
Still have a 1967 Cadillac sales brochure I ordered from the factory at 11 years old and it had that year's Eldo pictured in Olympic Bronze. A real beauty. Our town wasn't big enough for a Cadillac dealership. Still can't remember how I got the mailing address for Caddy Headquarters, but I sent them a typed letter 🙂 Also ordered one from Citroen that same year.
Wow, 800,000 X bodies built in 1980 alone. I do not see hardly any around anymore.
I see a citation every once in a while still.
Haven’t seen any x-car in years, but someone in Austin has a well kept Cimarron that I see occasionally. Never fails to make my head turn.
There is a guy in my town who drives a citation. When I first saw it a few months ago I took a photo of it because I know how rare they are now. He probably thought I was a weirdo taking a picture of him driving by lol
Here in Dallas I've yet to see an X-car or a Cimarron.
@@seiph80 wow. I'm in Michigan and I've seen quite a few despite salt on the roads for 6 months out of the year
I rarely comment on TH-cam, but I have to say, I found this very interesting, informative and enjoyable.
No clickbait, no nonsense, just spot on friendly presentation.
This will be over one million subscribers channel. Just wait and see.
Ha! I wish, but I’m not holding my breath. Thx for the kind words.
You should do a skyhawk or a sunbird so you can touch on the Brazilian motor.
I like this format. Great job Adam.
What your channel always offers in spades are context and nuance, which is exactly what the story of the Cimarron needs. I was actually wondering earlier today what your thoughts were on the Cimarron- and now I have my answer! Personally, I do like the Cimarron. While it has its shortcomings, many of those can be found in almost all 1980s vehicles. I think the styling was quite good, given the era and the fact that they were forced to work with the J platform. The base price was far too high, and I think trying to market it against BMW and Audi was a big mistake. Cadillac should have sold the car on its own merits, and I suspect it would’ve attracted a fair number of customers looking for a comfortable ride in a smaller, more economical package. As they introduced more powerful power plants, I suspect the Cimarron may have become a more natural competitor to the import sports luxury makes, rather than being launched undercooked and already being compared to established models from very prestigious marques.
In the long run, I understand why GM decided to kill the car, but I can’t help but feel that the car (or a successor on the same platform) could’ve become quite popular later in the 80s and into the 90s. A j-Platform Cadillac could’ve become a favorite to little old ladies in Florida who found the ‘full size’ DeVilles too large and overstuffed for their needs. I can’t imagine it going worse than the Catera incident later in the 90s.
I’d be very interested to see what a X-Car Cimarron could've been. While I suspect it may have made for a ‘better’ product on the market, I suspect the recalls associated with that platofrm would’ve ended up hurting Cadillac’s reputation as much as, maybe even more than the J-based Cimarron. Being limited to low-powered engines would’ve again meant that Cadillac had no performance credentials for them to market against the Europeans with, and I feel like ultimately it would’ve flopped about the same. And even if a theoretical X-car Cimarron had come to market and been a successful, reliable car… the diesel engines, V8-6-4, and HT 4100 engines likely would’ve still put Cadillac in a rough spot. Their reputation seemed doomed to collapse even in the 70s, as their cars struggled to maintain the quality they’d had in the 60s and earlier.
Thanks for taking the time to talk about the Cimarron, Adam! I’m definitely interested in seeing more car chats like this in the future! You bring a fantastic point of view to the discussion of these vehicles, and some interesting side information. The sales price differences between GM divisions over the years is really eye opening… no wonder every brand wanted their version of each platform, when they were so closely fighting for sales against one another, often with prices in the same ballpark. I’d also just like to say that Wayne Kady is an extremely talented designer and, aside from doing admirable work on the Cimarron, brought to life some of my favorite automotive designs out there (the ’71 Eldorado, while perhaps not as classically beautiful as the prior generation, is an extremely handsome and muscular looking luxury coupe). There is still plenty of appreciation out there for designs that are otherwise forgotten or ignored.
Yes, count me as one who appreciated this format. I have been amazed at how you find classic cars in such prestine, original condition, with all the hype of muscle cars (not that I don't enjoy them) your channel brings back fond memories of cars for us regular folk. I hope you will consider a segment dedicated to another luxury car failure, the Lincoln Versailles. As a once owner of a 1975 Mercury Monarch Ghia, the Versailles was an ambitious attempt downsizing the car, but failed miserably. Cheers!!
I've been seeing more content on Cimarrons lately. Big Al's auto just bought one at auction the other day. It's interesting to see how they've held up.
I love these history talks. Oddly enough, I'd like the history of the station wagon. You have your Mercury wagon which I'm waiting for a video on it. I grew up briefly with a station wagon, and I remember always liking it. It was a 1974 Plymouth. I'm sure that it has long succumbed to a demo derby now. From what I remembered, it was in great shape when my parents sold it in the mid eighties. In fact, my mom traded in her 67' Mustang for it because they decided to have us five kids. Being around six at the time they sold it, I still remember how smelled, how it rode, how the heavy doors closed, and even how my mom folded up and down the harassment seat in the back. The fact that a six year old cared to remember these details most mean something?
I grew up (at least in later childhood) riding in a '73 Gran Torino wagon. Literally five or six of the buddies and I piled into the back cargo area (no seats) and had a grand time. That car had the 428 V8, which I think was a Mustang or Thunderbird engine. That big thing MOVED like a Mustang, too.
The Cimarron - the car that REALLY killed Cadillac, I truly believe that Cadillac was never the same after this car. It takes courage to start a discussion on it! LOL But the fact is that GM at the time had faith in the car which is why they brought it out so it deserves a serious discussion Ultimately it shows how stupid and out of touch the management was at GM at the time, and the 80s were, I think we can all agree, the absolute lowest point at GM and in fact ALL American cars. But really this Cimarron was the worst, so clearly a lousy Cavalier which was ugly in itself so to build off that cheap crap was unforgivable for a Cadillac. Even the Lincoln Versailles was better and that's not saying much!
Totally agreed, the Cimarron didn't last mucn production to overcome the early Chevrolet Cavaliers. It required many mechanical improvements to stay alive.
Actually the Lincoln Versailles was a decent car...used car that is. Back in the early 90s, I knew a guy when I was in college who had a nice silver 302 car and never had any trouble with it. They were cheap and easy to find and most were well taken care of. If you were a college student and didn't mind a 4 door sedan, they were a decent buy.
Yeah it utterly failed at attracting new customers, and put off many old ones. It was a disater.
People like to point the blame to the little Cimarron. One car did damage to a entire make? Sold 140k of them. No it was more attributed to all the awful engines post 1980, poor quality control, the 1986 Seville/eldo redesign, the allante, I can go on. A little car that nobody took seriously that lasted 7 model years is not what killed Cadillac
That's like blaming someone's heart attack death on the first cheeseburger they ever ate.
Thoroughly enjoyable discussion Adam! The Cimarron, I do be believe, was assembled in Lordstown, Ohio, where the Cavalier was assembled, with the motors built at Tonawanda Engine plant near Buffalo, and trucked down to Lordstown, a 190 mile or so trip. I drove trucks during the late 90's/early 2000's, drove quite a few loads of motors for new Cavaliers into Lordstown. Also owned a 2001 Cavalier Z24 until 2018, had the 2.4 liter four. This motor had 4 valves per cylinder, was a strong runner, nice mix of power/fuel economy☺
Adam, Awesome video. This took me back to the golden years, when my dad worked at GM and had a new company car every 3 months. I had the chance to experience so many GM cars from the late 70's to the late 80's. The Cimarron was a turd. Total embarrassment for GM and Cadillac. It was the joke of the town and brought Cadillac to a new low. We did have a Cavalier with a 2.0L manual transmission. It was actually a pretty good car, but rusted out. I used to drive that car back and fourth to MTU in the UP and had many hard core snowy drives. It never let me down. The X car wasn't bad. We had a Citation for a few months. It was ugly as sin, but very functional and roomy.
Interesting discussion, Mr. Adam. The eighties and nineties for GM was a time when it would introduce a new vehicle and then after a couple of years of worthy improvements the vehicle would be discontinued; the Pontiac Fiero (I got to singe the back of my had a little on an exhaust manifold of the V-6 in the Fiero when I did an oil change service at the Chevrolet dealership I worked at), 6000 STE, Cadillac Cimarron, Buick GNX, GMC Typhoon/Cyclone to just name a few. I never understood that kind of thinking.
Back then as well I used to attend the “Snowbird Nationals” down in South Florida. There was a racer there one year with a Cadillac Cimarron and Seville he was running in the “Stock” class. The Cimarron had the 2.8 V-6 and with just the engine blueprinted, a little tune and small slicks on the front he had that Cimarron turning high 14’s in the 1/4 mile. The Seville had the 4.1 V-8 and with a similar set up to the Cimarron the Seville was turning low 14’s.
I had no idea it was originally intended for the X plaform. That would have been vastly superior.
Neither did I, after all these years I learned something new about its history.
Hi Adam, I really enjoy your channel and I liked this chat format. I agree that Cadillac was a different car maker in the 50's and 60's. I think they kind of lost their way and vision in the late 80's and 90's but have done a pretty remarkable job at reinventing themselves to the current lineup. They seem quite successful but I agree that it is more of an ultimate driving performance machine vs. pure luxury but I think that is what the younger generation wants. Personally, my favorites are Cadillacs of the early to mid 70's. They scream excess and luxury. Thanks for sharing!
I can't imagine anyone cross-shopping a BMW/Mercedes with a J-car and driving home with the latter. I would wager that the majority of buyers were repeat Cadillac customers who weren't paying a lot of attention.
According to another channel, it sold mostly to people over 50 as a second car or a car for the wife, so I'd agree they were repeat Cadillac owners.
Glad you will be continuing your videos even though us Michiganders are hunkering down for the winter and your nice cars are tucked away from the snow and salt! Good topic! The Cimarron has always been a curiosity of mine, never liked it but gave Cadillac credit for trying something that small!
This is what I find interesting: The same year GM slapped a Cadillac badge on a Cavalier, there was a K car with a Chrysler Labaron badge on it and everyone was ok with it. I guess it goes back to your point in the New Yorker video that Chrysler had lost its way by then. I enjoyed this video!
I never took those Chrysler LeBaron K cars seriously. When I was 11, we went to a Dodge dealer to look at the K cars. I was shocked when I touched the bumper and it had plastic parts. After the 60s and 70s cars I was used to seeing which were strong and beefy, the K cars seemed almost like toys to me. And we ended up getting a used '73 Gran Torino wagon.
The biggest farce was when nypd decided to use K cars for patrol. A new low point for nyc at the time.
A Chrysler is not a Cadillac. If Chrysler took a Plymouth Reliant and turned it into an Imperial then that would be Chryslers version of the cinnamon problem.
@@gm12551 It was turned into an Imperial, or at any rate the basic platform was.
Yes, do more videos of this format. You have such a depth of knowledge about my favourite automaker (GM).
This type of video is easy to listen to while I am working and so much to learn!
From this former GM mechanics point of view the main difference between the Cimarron and any other J Plat was the abundance amount of sound deadening material which only made it much harder to work on when doing anything under the dash which the added electronics that it had made it more likely you would be doing under dash repairs.
Ha! Funny
Under dash repairs are the absolute worst. Should be illegal in my book. Dash should come out as a unit for repairs.
The later 1987-1988 Cimarron was actually a really decent car with the 3.0 liter, digital dash, and updated front end that resembled the Deville of the time. I wouldn't mind owning one of those at all. But just like you said, it was too late by the time they finally got it right and the Cimarron was axed early in the 1988 model year, which is why they sold very few of them among other reasons as well.
By the way, this was a great video of you discussing the history of this car, and will look forward to any future discussion related videos.
Usually the last year of anything made by GM is the best one. Refine them and dump them.
I have always found the Cimarron fascinating. I really don't know why but the car has always kind of spoken to me. I test drove an 85 with the V-6 once when I was a college student, and although it had some front-end issues, I found it rather pleasant. All those exposed screw-heads in the interior tho! Jeez. But, I dunno. It's just a compelling period for the US automotive industry for people who enjoy studying malaise and entropy. 😂
As a teenager, I wanted a Cimarron with the driving lights like in the ads. At that age, it was the right size to appeal to me. Although 15 year olds with no driver's license was likely not their target market. Disclaimer: I love unloved cars. At 17, I lusted after a Rover Sterling 827sli and I still want a Jag X6 Series III.
@@stevevarholy2011 Haha, nice to know I'm not alone. "I love unloved cars," well put!
Where Cadillac went wrong was moving to front wheel drive which is considered an econobox drivetrain. Luxury and performance high end cars have rear wheel drive.
It failed because American auto executives have no idea how to design and build compact cars.
No US car maker can compete with BMW, VW or Japanese car manufacturers in the small/medium car sector.
I enjoy your videos very much. As I watch them I wonder where you obtained your “insider” information, facts that very few other sources include. Yours is the best automobile source of all.
The Cimmaron was the fruit of everything that was wrong with GM at this juncture.
This theme is a great re-tool of your channel. This theme can go very far. Not only does it cover a history of marketing, but it also covers the economy, purchasing trends, engineering, and even geo-political discussion. I love your classic cars, but these discussions go much deeper, and your show is now more of a documentary. So now you have my attention, and I will be tuning-in.
Thx!
Great background on the Cimarron! Would love to hear more about the Seville, 1st gen and bustle-back, which were also mentioned. The Cimarron was certainly not GM's finest hour but it's still fun to hear about how these cars came about. Thank you also for giving mention to the GM designers (stylists) involved, being in the business I've heard much about them.
The first two generations of Seville would make for excellent discussion topics! I hope Adam considers them.
Awesome videos I'll always love to listen to your expertise and also your personal comments on certain items or vehicles Thank you for sharing your knowledge
People still whine about this one. Yeah maybe not best decision by GM but not the end of the world. In fact I'd like to have one! I bet it's a decent little runner. Any Jaguar from same era is a steaming pile of you know what So there, detractors : P
Your videos are fun to watch, memories and insight. Thank you.
I'd like an '88 Cimmaron but can't find one. 😠
Cool .... you should do one about the slant back Seville!!!
Highly Underrated!!
The Cadillac string of failures: The Cimarron, the 4100Ht engine, the 4 6 8 engine, and the early Northstar engines. Good to see them making a comeback.
Hi Adam! Great historical overview of the Cadillac Cimarron. You know your stuff!!! :-) As a long-time Cadillac owner (my Dad also had Cadillacs from 1958 thru 2019) I have owned everything from the 472, to the HT4100, the 4.9 (which was an incredible engine and vehicle) to a Northstar.
I had a 1985 Cimarron back then and I enjoyed the car for exactly what it was. Cadillac's version of the J-body. I'm SO glad you made mention that every single division had their version. (armchair critics of the Cimarron seem to forget that fact!) The Cimarron was the perfect urban Cadillac for the times back then. Living in the city then it worked out great. It was the best handling car in the snow! We had experienced a huge snow storm during the day - large drifts and heavy. I came home from work to find cars buried and stuck in the driveway of the condo building I was living in at the time. I thought to myself "no way will I make it to my carport in the back", but I decided to try anyway. I felt guilty as I slowly drove around the cars that were stuck...and right into my carport space! Also I never had any issues with any of the Cadillacs - even the HT4100. Style-wise the 1985 Cimarron looked more like a Cadillac than previous years and could easily tell the "family" resemblance. Again, great info on the Cimarron. Enjoy your channel very much!
Back in 1985 we bought a 81 Citation X11. It was a cool car and gave us no trouble in the 3 years we owned it.
I like the chat format to discuss automotive history, good stuff!
I enjoy watching your channel, as I grew up with these cars. I remember the Cimarron, and it is rare when you see one today.
Nice “fireside” chat! I always thought the Cimarron was not really a Cadillac! Your thorough and persuasive information confirms that belief! Keep the fireside chats coming!
I really enjoyed the Cimarron Snow Side chat Adam! Your knowledge and casual delivery are so enjoyable. Having driven the '82 Cavalier as a 20 something, I hated that 1.8. I can't imagine it in the Cimarron. Did drive the '88 v6 and there was much improvement - then - as you said, cancelled. Love the 60's caddy's as well and even early 70's depending on smog - just not the same today.
Thank you as always - keep up the amazing work. - Mark Edward Sanderson
You are an irreplaceable automotive resource. I can't believe you have that gold Cimmaron plaque. Please make more of these videos. Please thank Wayne for his work. I love the bustle back Seville.
Excellent content! This is extremely interesting for car aficionados, especially those interested in classic American autos. Also appreciate the relaxed and unpretentious presentation. A robust thanks to you is my inducement for you to continue this informative and entertaining program.
This is extremely interesting, I love this history lesson on this car. Great video Adam.
A high school friend’s father owned a Cadillac dealership. One day instead of the Corvette (!) his 18 year old self usually drove, he come over to my house in a fresh off the truck 1985 Cimarron D’Oro with the 2.8 MPI and a $15K sticker “just cuz”. I thought the industrial-strength gold was a bit much but at least it drove halfway decently. The engine was well-suited to the J platform.
I never ever knew that the X-car platform was first considered for the Cimarron. What a knee slapper! I remember all too well when this car came out I was so excited to read the car magazine reviews. I thought Cadillac had hit another home run... and then I read the reviews. My excitement crashed and burned faster than the Hindenburg. I could not believe Cadillac was seriously trying to compete against Audi, BMW, and Mercedes with this rolling joke. Imagine the reactions of the engineers of German and Japanese car makers must have had when saw this vehicle! No wonder the big three got their buts serious kicked to the side of the road. Adams's comment on GM finally getting a car right in its last model year and then canceling it is/was so typical of GM. Glad those days are over. Another great video by Adam!
The tragic mistake was destroying all Seville brand equity with the 1980 redesign.
Once upon a time I worked at a tire shop, didn't know these even existed, one came in and I immediately recognized it as a cavalier with leather... It caused some kind of schism, was in disbelief that they would/could even produce this. That said your vid gives it some context, thanks.
Yes, Adam these new video series are for sure exciting and a must.
Please consider future videos on
Cadillac commercial chassis and the history and how these were HD cars with better warranties and such. Limo, hearses, diplomatic cars, etc.
Cadillac and the quest for better mpg after the fuel crisis- smaller engines, Diesel options, 4.3 V6 and the 5.7 Diesel, Displacement on demand V-4-6-8, digital fuel injection in the mid 70s, smaller "less heavy" direction starting the in mid 70s, etc.
Also do autopsy or analysis videos on what killed certain lines like the Eldorado, the big RWD Fleetwood, the struggles with the 4100 and Northstar quality issues, and the switch over to SUV/Trucks and how the brand had to reidentify with the new customer bases and what does an "all electric offerings" really means for Cadillac and if they will kill off the remaining cars and maybe keep one car, an exotic low volume Cadillac based off the Corvette as the flagship? production limited to say 500 and msrp at $500,000 0-60 mph in 1.6 sec all electric at all 4 wheels.
Also remember the Cadillac Catera.
The role the Seville tried to fulfill in 1975, and the life and mission of the Seville and if you think it was successful in the mission?
I think your channel base is most hungry for mid 1960s to mid 90s content.
Consider the mission of the big RWD Cadillac cars like the Fleetwood Brougham and the demise in 1996 and why? Consider mentioning the special trims like the Talisman packages and even rare options like the ACRS " the crash air bags found in the 70s"...
Also do you feel that say Buick Park Avenue customers would have cross shopped to a Sedan Deville and vice versa? say we are looking at a 1978 model year, customer confusion? Olds 98, park Avenue, Sedan Deville, Fleetwood?
I personally feel the mid to late 60s was Cadillacs best years and that is when they made the most "highest quality" cars and were truly the global leader in luxury, craftsmanship, and ambition.
Definitely consider an ACRS video as most people do not even know that ACRS was and or that GM sold 10,000 cars back in the time period 1974-76 with crash air bags. If I don't say "crash", everyone assumes suspension air bags for air ride, not crash air bags.
Great idea of you Adam to do these new conversation series videos. Consider say going over an old sales brochure and reading out of it with photos put on on the screen, say reading a 1968 Cadillac dealer sales brochure and an in-depth look at the options and colors and who was the target customers?
Adam, I like everything you do... I hope your subscribership continues to grow by leaps and bounds. It's an intelligent, relaxing guilty pleasure to experience your videos. God Bless!
Informative video about another sad chapter in GM & Cadillac history.