Just the other day I was driving down the street and one of those Eldorados was going the other way and the padded top flipped up at the front and the guy reached out the driver window to try and hold it down. Caught it on my dash cam. I thought of your channel right away.
@@RareClassicCars out here in the southwest we've seen vinyl tops on almost everything. And those fake convertible tops were very popular. Especially on the bustle back cars.
Heeeey don't laugh dude! I had a 1988 Lincoln Town Car with the faux rag top. The same thing happened to ME going down the highway! I think they're pretty elegant looking until they give you problems! I had to have the thing re-glued! I also knew a guy who had an '89 Town Car with the same roof. His blew completely off on the highway and flew into the woods! LOL He drove it with the metal top exposed!
@@joefischetti2383 Wouldn't surprise me one bit! You'd laugh even harder if you KNEW they guy who had that Lincoln. He was a piece of work and had actually been a mechanic for Ford. He used to drive around in that Lincoln like a big shot.......unpainted metal roof and all! LOL
Thanks for this video. My Mom bought a new 1988 STS Seville. They only built about 1500 STS cars that 1st year. I read some years back that they were considered prototype vehicles. It had pearl white paint, with a beautiful saddle interior, and a really great burled walnut trim. It was a perfect car for her petite frame, and I always thought it was a handsome design...especially with the Blackwell tires, and road wheels vs wire hubcaps. It sat in her garage the last ten years of her life, and my brother had Goodwill haul it away after her passing.
In my early 20’s, I had a ten year old one-owner 90 Eldorado. That was my first Cadillac. Looking back, I LOVED that car. Might not be the best Cadillac, but it gave you the real Cadillac experience. Thanks John, good work.
@@troysanchez776Yes this should have been the 1980…..or at minimum a 4-door version of the Eldo instead of the design vomit bustle back old persons car that they should have stopped as soon as they saw the sales flops in Buick Century and Olds Cutlass Salon 4-door aero-backs launched in 1978. One of the times design “won” and customers and franchise lost. Destroyed 1975-79 Seville brand equity arguable forever or at minimum until the 1992 / 1998 relaunches.
Yes I was very disappointed when they released this year. I had a 1981 Cadillac Eldorado biarritz which was a masterpiece. They struggled for awhile. Thanks for all of your you tube presentations. I love your collection.
I really enjoyed seeing John's sketches and renderings from the '80s. Today, these are really valuable, historic artifacts. Sadly, these usually get tossed and destroyed.
Fantastic segment with this amiable and very talented man. Some of the earliest sketches in particular were strikingly handsome designs. I remember many people considering the downsizing this time around to be a step too far, to a scale no longer worthy of a proper Cadillac.
We owned a used 86 Seville in the early 90's. My wife loved the car as it fit her frame and we both liked the lines of the car. Sadly the main bearing crapped out at 90,000 which I learned was par for this engine.
I can't get enough of these sit-downs with John Manoogian -- I think Adam's infectious enthusiasm and appreciation for the details is the perfect foil for Manoogian's utter talent.
As a college student who couldn’t afford it. These looked far better than the earlier models. The late 80s eldorado is what I wanted. Of course that was from afar through the eyes of a poor college student who drove a broken 77 Malibu. FWIW.
Very cool to see these sketches resembling Caddies I drove 25 years ago that were more or less expendable cars of the used market back then. Had an 87' Seville too -one thing that struck me about that car was the full size body on frame Olds 307 powered Brougham's they were still making (also owned an 88' Brougham) were much better Cadillacs over-all that stickered for significantly less than Eldorados/Sevilles of that period. The Seville drove and felt to me like the "economy" Cadillac -not the most expensive top of the totem pole car they marketed it as.
For this generation of the Eldo and Seville Adam, I have always had a guilty pleasure for them. On top of that I really liked the Eldorado Touring Coupe and the Seville Touring Sedan packages. The best ones of this generation were the 91s with the 4.9 v8 especially the ETC and STS variants.
I personally was glad to see the Eldorado and Seville downsized. Cadillac still had their Brougham rear wheel drive model for those who wanted a very large car. I owned both an Eldorado and Seville from this generation and loved they both. My Eldorado was the slightly redesigned 1988 model as i had to admit that the 1986 & 1987 cars didnt look nearly as nice without the taillight fins in the back and the front fender creases in the front. My Seville was a 1990 model and it ran beautifully. It looked more European since it was silver exterior with a red leather interior.
I own a Cotillion White 88 Eldorado Biarritz here in Arizona. It has the dealer installed custom grille and a continental kit. I have had several people, turn around and chase me down to ask about it. I think it is a great design. Thank you sir for your work on these beauties.
Thank you for superimposing a clear, still pic of the drawings over you holding the drawings! Makes it much easier to see the details. Interesting stuff!!
Thanks Adam & John for another great if unfortunate slice of GM history! I think John hit the nail on the head about what really killed these cars when they debuted - even with the addition width - the packaging of these cars was just too close to the N cars which cost half as much. Also, because of unfortunate program delays, the cheaper N cars were introed first - which resulted in an Eldorado & Seville ( and Toronado & Riviera ) which debuted looking like their MUCH more inexpensive Pontiac, Olds & Buick cousins. This turned the old axiom of making the inexpensive cars resemble the expensive ones upside down and led to disaster in the showrooms for all 3 divisions that handled these E cars. Even the V8 and much more sophisticated engineering of the E cars compared to the N cars made no difference to most when they were parked side-by-side. Love begins with a look.
I bought my second 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado from a couple in Fountain Valley, California. The wife's car was a 1986 Eldorado in light yellow. She loved the smaller size as it fit in their garage better.
It's so interesting to see how forward thinking their early concept sketches were. Some of those sketches look like cars that came out 15-20 years later.
Things were so different in 1980 when the cars were initially planned to 1985 when they debuted. Gas prices, change in tastes of the affluent, the decline of the coupe market, etc.
Adam, I really enjoy listening to you speak. You are so well spoken, and so sharp. I feel like I'm listening to someone that is from a whole other dimension. I really enjoy the channel.
My 1985 Olds 98 was often mistaken for a Seville. How many 1986 Seville owners were asked about their Olds 98? That might have something to do with the sales flop.
The same fate happened to the downsized 1986 Buick Riviera and Oldsmobile Toronado. The biggest criticism with those cars was that the downsized look appeared too similar to the compact N Cars(Buick Somerset/Skylark, Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais, Pontiac Grand Am).
@@donaldwilson2620 Back in the late '80s a customer of mine drove one of these Eldorados, and his wife had the Seville. Good people! Their field managers had Lincoln Town Cars as company vehicles. Not bad for a "Mom and Pop" shop.
Whoa! 13:48. A Cadillac version of the 94 Impala SS! Wow that would’ve been awesome. What could’ve been. That would’ve predated the performance “V” line by a number of years. I love the lines of that sketch!
I remember having one of this generation Sevilles as a rental in the mid-late 80's. The conservative styling (especially compared t the totally bizarre-bustle-back previous gen) was appropriate for the day. The interior, however, was an ergonomic disaster with things like pump-to-set parking brake which, with Cadillac's automatic parking brake release, meant you could never use it as a true emergency brake. The competition was not coming from Ford or Chrysler but from the foreign makes (originally German and now Japanese) who were making much more pleasing vehicles.
I like vinyl roofs but these cars look their best as slick tops. Really a good design, and I've been quite enamored with this gen car for a few decades now.
it's easy to look at the Eldorado and Seville as a letdown as that's a huge gamble when people are used to something more. it's like eating steak every night and then being told you're getting hamburger from now on. the gm team.had a tough challenge. personally I very much like the smaller eldo and seville and actually like them more than the famed late 70s versions of both. if you look at them as individual creations, and dont compare to their predecessors they are fine cars, targeted at the times. the team was essentially in a situation where the battle was steeply uphill with many many odds stacked against them. they should feel proud of their work. if I wanted an Eldorado and was told I could only have 1, a 78 or an 86, I'd instantly take the 86. same for the seville.
Love hearing from these designers Adam thank you for capturing their insight , I personally think they did a good job given the restrictions put on them, I've owned a couple of Buicks Cadillacs, Olds and a 87 bonneville from that period and I found them to be nice driving cars and as a young family man back then I could afford them
Some of the designs are stunning. But the final product - especially without the windshield at low angle - miss the mark. Either it needed a much less sloping front or it needed the windshield angling into a sloping front.
The 86 Eldo and Seville came out when I was in college and began driving my first Cadillac, a 1980 Coupe Deville that my mother had helped me buy used (with very low miles) from a family friend. My problem with the Eldorado and Seville from this era was not only that they were even smaller than their predecessors, but that they looked too much like each other. And of course they did since John M. talked about that the cars shared hoods and front fenders. This kind of parts sharing wasn't new, but the Eldo began as its own high end car different from other Cadillacs in the 1950s, then began to drift toward just being another trim package for the DeVille/Sixty Special in the early 60s before becoming the wonderful design triumph in 1967. The '71 Eldo was again unique as was the '79 and the '80 Seville didn't look like the Eldo even though they now shared the same platform. But the worst thing I can say about the '86 Eldo is that it was just a 2 door Seville and had abandoned any kind of semblance of a personal luxury coupe. The irony is that Lincoln didn't forget what a personal luxury coupe was supposed to be and came out with the Lincoln Mark VII, in 1984 while these Cadillacs were in development. And especially with the sporty LSC version, the car took the automotive press by storm and which followed by better sales. The Mark VII abandoned the formal roof line, keeping enough Lincoln cues in the front clip (Rolls Royce waterfall grill) while making a more dynamic styling statement. Both the Mark VII and the '86 Eldorado shared a similar wheelbase, but the Mark VII was a longer vehicle, especially with the rear overhang. Lincoln had the advantage in that the Mark VII was still a RWD car where most Cadillacs had transitioned to FWD. Ironically the Eldorado had been a FWD car for two decades but hadn't really suffered from a styling identity until this car. The other styling problem I have with the final cars (both of them but especially the Eldorado) is that the Eldo lacked a flamboyance that the nameplate had enjoyed for most of its existence (early 60s cars excepted). Maybe the 1980 Seville was too much for people because Cadillac swung very much the other way being very conservative. When I see John's sketches, I think what if he'd had more freedom and frankly more money to make a proper car. Smaller wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it needed to be a car that really looked like it could go toe to toe with the Mark VII or similar competitors. I could easily could have seen a 4 seater, sportier vehicle that was larger than the upcoming Allante (also on the modified Eldo platform) but with a spirit and sportiness harking back to the 1967 car. In the end, the next generation Eldo and Sevilles diverged in styling in 1992. But by then the damage was done with buyers who continued to abandon Cadillac for German makes, and in the 90s, for Lexus. If I were GM back then, the target competition car was the Mercedes 280CE.
WOW same here dude! I was in college in '86 and had bought MY first Cadillac the year before. It was a 1977 Sedan DeVille D'Elegance. The only difference was that my abusive parents not only did not help me, but were dead set against it even though I used my own money. Mine was triple burgundy with those large tufted pillow seats. My fraternity brothers used to call it 'the pimpmobile.' LOL My neighbor up the street bought one of these 'downsized' Cadillacs. He actually had 2, an Eldorado and a Seville. I think the Eldorado came first then he had the Seville. I thought they were the most ridiculous looking things!
@@retroguy9494 you're the old persons car type then lol, cause that was who bought the Town Car were middle age and old people. the Lincoln Mark always attracted the mainstream buyer and younger people, along with the Continental. but that changed after the final Mark series ended, by 1990 the Continental was no longer the car of the people. the 90's Town Car was exclusively bought by old people.
During my first visit to the United States in 1989 me and my Mum rented a burgundy Seville. While being a life long lover of American cars I deeply hated the downsizing after the late 70:s. That being said, we both loved the Seville, a great ride despite being such a small car. Still a fairly luxurious interior compared to the misery of today. As a true testament to this experience I still drive a 1990 DeVille as my daily.
Ditto - I'm a lover of late 50's early '60's cars, especially the big fin Cadillac's and Chevy Impala's. They were statement pieces of design and engineering, unlike today's inverted jelly moulds on wheels 🙄
After the interview with Bob Lutz, we learn how complex the auto industry is. Mr. Manoogian's designs are fascinating and great! And then you see the final product, and ask "why?!?" If Cadillac had used his front end design, they would have been legendary and sales successes, in my opinion.
Imo time has been kind to these - they look unique now. Though the Seville needs that strike line along the body, it visually impacts the body design well.
A coworker had a 1988 Seville. It was white with red leather interior. I road in this car many times and I'm 6'2" and he was tall too. It was a comfortable car but a bit small because you sat close to the door panel, just like the 90's Catera. The dash was low too. It also sat so close to the ground. What I don't like about all cars is being close to the ground. I prefer a car that sits up. That's why I bought a Challenger instead of a Camaro or Mustang and my truck. These Cadillacs were liked by women but not so much by men. It was obviously small and Americans then were having a difficult time with the value in small luxury cars. They didn't seem like you got value for what they cost. They were nice cars. Of course GM reacted to complaints about the size and enlarged the next generation.
Interesting. John is a great interviewee. Very informative. Unfortunately I can’t deny I unequivocally hated (and still hate) this generation of Seville and Eldorado. I love so many vehicles. These two cars simply aren’t two of them.
My family went from 79 Coupe Deville, to 85 Eldo to 90 Seville on the Cadillac front. When the 90 Seville was parked in the driveway, I was like THAT is a CADILLAC??? It looks terrible. But the ride to me was Cadillac, the tech inside was Cadillac- thought the seats looked to skinny... Once I drove it, I was amazed at the get up and go of that V8 in the baby cadillac. The 90 Seville was bought used and first car which had a CD changer in the trunk. Overall learned to really like it! Looking back, the rear lights grew on me, very interesting seeing the early sketches with the very thin lights. I now own a 91 Cutlass Convertible, interesting to remember that the 90 Seville also had that what I always thought was odd, but my Cutlass has too- seeing the front wheels sticking out so much from the straight on view.
I remember these well, for a special reason: I was a member of the local Cadillac-LaSalle collector's car club, and we had a car show hosted by a Cadillac dealer in 1986. The dealer moved a lot of the new, 1986 Cadillacs to a back lot so that the classic V-16 Touring Sedans, 1939 Series 60 Specials and tail-finned convertibles could be easily spotted by the folks passing by on the freeway. My best friend's skunky brother (zero impulse control) discovered that the Cadillac crest on every new car's C-pillar was attached with cheap double-sided sticky tape. So, while nobody was watching, he went around and turned every one of them upside-down. And no, we never got invited back! On the good side, my friends and I discovered that the tail fins on my 1961 Imperial Crown Coupe and those on a friend's 1959 Eldorado were exactly the same height, measured from the bottom of the fender!
16:54 Massachusetts didn't require a front plate back then, but it does now, so it's a good idea to save the front plate holder even in states that don't currently require one.
You keep creeping up in the years. I am hoping you will eventually cover the 1994-1996 Buick Roadmaster and Cadillac Fleetwood. (And if you HAVE to, the Caprice and Impala of those years).
It is a shame John didn’t get his way with his clay mock up. That was a much better looking car than what they ended up with. I agree with you too Adam. Concealed headlights all the way, especially when part of the grille treatment.
Always thought the only thing interesting about the Seville was how the C pillar met the trunk ahead of the rear wheel centerline. Just bought a ‘90 Seville with the fake convertible top. Gets compliments all the time.
The roofline of very early Eldorado Sketches 7:20 turned into the 1988-1996 Buick Regal Coupe 🚘(which sold over 400k units over 9 years) almost exactly. So not a total loss.🚗
I just absolutely loved this!!.....and I am not an art guy and I generally dislike concept cars. But this was so fun! I actually wish I could own one of these sketches. What is happening to me!?!? Thank you so much for showing your work with us John, I loved it.
My Aunt purchased a new 90 Eldorado and I got it from her @2002 with only 25k miles on it. Always felt the prior generation styling was way better. Wasn’t a bad car as I ran it to over 185k miles and sold it. The fake carriage roof was interesting as one day I hear some wind noise and the damn thing flew off!! Ended up replacing it. This was one of least respected generations of the Eldorado.
I remember walking into a Cadillac dealership when this car was introduced. I thought, wow, what a marked improvement to the Cimarron. This should sell well. Then I saw the price and realized it was a Seville. Kept my bustle-back.
I love my 1990 Cadillac Seville silver with Burgundy interior!! Out of every Cadillac I ever had I miss that 1 the most! Didn't have it long X wife had a accident with it
Ironically, Adam, in the second set of drawings you showed of John's, the shape of the Seville he created in 1980 (bottom car of the three displayed) looks remarkably like the mid-nineties Seville that made it to production! I always thought that was a particularly handsome Seville. 😉😎
While I personally adore this generation, the fact remains that virtually everything GM designed in the early to mid 80s ended up looking, ultimately, as if it was a humble N-body (Calais, Grand Am, Somerset/Skylark). I recognize that budgets were tight but *SOMEONE* had to see this similarity of the raked A-pillar, very standard B-pillar, and upright C-pillar. It's unfortunate because there was some very courageous engineering underneath this seemingly similar skin, but buyers had so many choices - often more reliable ones - that GM became second rate. Too bad, as Mr. Manoogian shows, there was such talent laid to waste by the bean counters.
You can excuse the Cimarron because it was an all new car being rushed into production to meet an all new need and thus was mandated to go to a chassis that was already in production as a cheap econobox. These downsized Eldorados and Sevilles had no excuse. They were staples of the Cadillac lineup, and the Eldorado name had been Cadillac’s luxury personal prestige coupe since 1954. Cutting them down in size was simply sacrilegious. My Grandfather had a 1985 Eldorado that he had ordered from Central Cadillac on Carnegie Ave in Cleveland Ohio. Final assembly at the New Jersey plant was Sept. 26, 1985. He took possession 10/14/85. Right when the ‘86s were starting to be rolled out. When he picked his up he told the dealer the new ones looked like Hondas lol
I'm betting this Man had a hand in the design of my 91coup DeVille. I approve of it, the cladding from the rub strip down and All round the car and the taillights is what sets it up.👍
SOME 35 YEARS AFTER THESE CARS CAME OUT. TO ME THEY ARE GETING VERY HANDSOME. ALMOST BOUGHT 1 OR 2 IN THE PAST FEW YEARS. MY #1 FAVORITE WOULD BE A 91 ELDO #2 WOULD BE 91 SEVILLE, LAST YEAR OF THIS BODY STYLE 1 FIRST YEAR FOR THE 4.9 V8.
My first car was an 86 Barritz when I was 16 with a phone custom grille and fifth wheel kit. It was candy apple red with the silver bottom trim and It's been about 20 years since it was totaled, there was an older man that lived in my neighborhood who had one that was almost identical but navy blue and his grandson who is my age that I went to school with and still has it. I've wanted for years to ask to sell to me. I've been looking for another one ever since. I love that style with the flat tail lights for only that year. But I could only find a 90 with the fin tails but the same style.
Cadillacs stopped being Cadillac years ago... not sure honestly if they were truly any different than a gussied up Chevrolet. Or a copied Oldsmobile... these were and will always be a joke.
It's pretty common for a given model to have great sales in the first couple years and then taper off somewhat, and then the next model to see sales jump back up. For these sales to plummet below half of the last year of the previous model is a sure indication of total disaster.
You know, I really don't mind the exterior styling of these, especially after the facelift. I even kind of wanted one when I was in High School (mid nineties.) To me these were more in line with what the Cimmaron should have been. Just too small to carry the eldo/seville monikers. IMO what really lets this generation of the seville / eldo down is the odd dashboard. I remember being disappointed with it at the time (I was expecting an interior more like the next generation, or just slightly less advanced like the concurrent lincoln mark vii 84-92.)
The designers did the best that they could do given the package they were given. Although I did not like these cars at the time in retrospect I do admire the greenhouse on the Seville (similar to the '86 Deville) which had limo-style doors that went into the roofline as well as the crisp and simple fender lines.
Thank you for another informative and enjoyable video. I wanted to be a car designer before l could write. After my Mom passed l found she kept all my drawings from kindergartner onward. My kindergarten graduation program lists my future profession as "Car Designer" while most boys wanted to be firemen or policemen. I was certainly unique. I stupidly didn't follow my dream. So l really enjoy your conversations with these designers. Thank you again.
I'd bet that the low sales WAS NOT due to the styling of these cars. Though I agree the difference in size had to be a factor, I believe it was their REPUTATION, due mainly to engines. I think now as well as I did at the time these are beautiful.
The biggest problem with the 85 year & forward was that Cadi designers were given size limits fitting that of the foreign luxury brands. This limit meant that Cadillac could no longer design a ridiculous car geared on behemoth flash only. With the given size constraints, Cadillac had to make cars to compete more on substance rather than superficial appearance. This was impossible as the American car industry never was built around strong engineering.
Hello Adam, one thing that came to mind watching this was, (not necessarily design criteria) but what was / is the "requirement" for taillight brightness or square inches to meet standards? As always, thanks for the great content, and to John for sharing an in-depth look at car history.
Have you ever thought about doing a video on the 86 to 92 Oldsmobile Toronado? I would be especially interested in the 1990 to 1992 redesign. I owned one at one period and thought it was an absolutely beautiful car, with styling cues of past Toronados.
I think the down sized post-bustleback Seville was a masterpiece for the same reasons the downsized Olds 98s were. Beautiful proportions and details. In fact, the two are remarkably similar.
Just the other day I was driving down the street and one of those Eldorados was going the other way and the padded top flipped up at the front and the guy reached out the driver window to try and hold it down. Caught it on my dash cam. I thought of your channel right away.
I’m sure that’s nails on a chalkboard to John. Most designers loathe vinyl roofs, particularly on cars like this.
@@RareClassicCars out here in the southwest we've seen vinyl tops on almost everything. And those fake convertible tops were very popular. Especially on the bustle back cars.
Heeeey don't laugh dude! I had a 1988 Lincoln Town Car with the faux rag top. The same thing happened to ME going down the highway! I think they're pretty elegant looking until they give you problems! I had to have the thing re-glued!
I also knew a guy who had an '89 Town Car with the same roof. His blew completely off on the highway and flew into the woods! LOL
He drove it with the metal top exposed!
@@retroguy9494 That cracked me up! Word is that a family of raccoons are now living under it.
@@joefischetti2383 Wouldn't surprise me one bit! You'd laugh even harder if you KNEW they guy who had that Lincoln. He was a piece of work and had actually been a mechanic for Ford. He used to drive around in that Lincoln like a big shot.......unpainted metal roof and all! LOL
...love it! Thanks so much for your participation, Mr. Manoogian...!
Thanks for this video. My Mom bought a new 1988 STS Seville. They only built about 1500 STS cars that 1st year. I read some years back that they were considered prototype vehicles. It had pearl white paint, with a beautiful saddle interior, and a really great burled walnut trim. It was a perfect car for her petite frame, and I always thought it was a handsome design...especially with the Blackwell tires, and road wheels vs wire hubcaps. It sat in her garage the last ten years of her life, and my brother had Goodwill haul it away after her passing.
That saddle interior on certain "special" models was absolutely gorgeous.
In my early 20’s, I had a ten year old one-owner 90 Eldorado. That was my first Cadillac. Looking back, I LOVED that car. Might not be the best Cadillac, but it gave you the real Cadillac experience. Thanks John, good work.
i'm 21 and just bought a 2 owner 90 el dorado yesterday!
That lower opening Eldorado with the hidden headlight is great. Thank. You John! They should have built that one. I am glad you kept the photos.
John’s designs always have a muscular look with the extremely wide tires. Too bad reality was so different. Nice video, Adam. 👍👍👍
I'll bet the Cadillac dealers were irate. 75,000 Edorados down to 20,000 and 40,000 Sevilles to less than 20,000. That's a major hit to take.
YES...and this accounts for the elevation of the Lincoln Town Car to THE luxury car during this period.
Horrible looking cars. Like stubby butt plugs.
In 1980/1 it is what the dealers were begging for.
@@troysanchez776Yes this should have been the 1980…..or at minimum a 4-door version of the Eldo instead of the design vomit bustle back old persons car that they should have stopped as soon as they saw the sales flops in Buick Century and Olds Cutlass Salon 4-door aero-backs launched in 1978. One of the times design “won” and customers and franchise lost. Destroyed 1975-79 Seville brand equity arguable forever or at minimum until the 1992 / 1998 relaunches.
Yes I was very disappointed when they released this year. I had a 1981 Cadillac Eldorado biarritz which was a masterpiece. They struggled for awhile. Thanks for all of your you tube presentations. I love your collection.
I really enjoyed seeing John's sketches and renderings from the '80s. Today, these are really valuable, historic artifacts. Sadly, these usually get tossed and destroyed.
Fantastic segment with this amiable and very talented man. Some of the earliest sketches in particular were strikingly handsome designs. I remember many people considering the downsizing this time around to be a step too far, to a scale no longer worthy of a proper Cadillac.
We owned a used 86 Seville in the early 90's. My wife loved the car as it fit her frame and we both liked the lines of the car. Sadly the main bearing crapped out at 90,000 which I learned was par for this engine.
I can't get enough of these sit-downs with John Manoogian -- I think Adam's infectious enthusiasm and appreciation for the details is the perfect foil for Manoogian's utter talent.
Love Johns history of all the cars he’s worked on, please interview him for years to come!
As a college student who couldn’t afford it. These looked far better than the earlier models. The late 80s eldorado is what I wanted. Of course that was from afar through the eyes of a poor college student who drove a broken 77 Malibu. FWIW.
Very cool to see these sketches resembling Caddies I drove 25 years ago that were more or less expendable cars of the used market back then. Had an 87' Seville too -one thing that struck me about that car was the full size body on frame Olds 307 powered Brougham's they were still making (also owned an 88' Brougham) were much better Cadillacs over-all that stickered for significantly less than Eldorados/Sevilles of that period. The Seville drove and felt to me like the "economy" Cadillac -not the most expensive top of the totem pole car they marketed it as.
ABSOLUTELY could listen to you guys and watch his renderings for hours!!! 😁
For this generation of the Eldo and Seville Adam, I have always had a guilty pleasure for them. On top of that I really liked the Eldorado Touring Coupe and the Seville Touring Sedan packages. The best ones of this generation were the 91s with the 4.9 v8 especially the ETC and STS variants.
Same here
I feel the same way and the nice thing is you can get one of these cheap, the problem is finding one that was beat to death
It was as though the touring version should have been the only way they came. That might have helped the company’s reputation.
I personally was glad to see the Eldorado and Seville downsized. Cadillac still had their Brougham rear wheel drive model for those who wanted a very large car. I owned both an Eldorado and Seville from this generation and loved they both. My Eldorado was the slightly redesigned 1988 model as i had to admit that the 1986 & 1987 cars didnt look nearly as nice without the taillight fins in the back and the front fender creases in the front. My Seville was a 1990 model and it ran beautifully. It looked more European since it was silver exterior with a red leather interior.
The large rear drive Caddys had the crappy HT 4100 and Oldsmobile 307 engines.
I own a Cotillion White 88 Eldorado Biarritz here in Arizona. It has the dealer installed custom grille and a continental kit. I have had several people, turn around and chase me down to ask about it. I think it is a great design. Thank you sir for your work on these beauties.
Thank you for superimposing a clear, still pic of the drawings over you holding the drawings! Makes it much easier to see the details. Interesting stuff!!
Thanks Adam & John for another great if unfortunate slice of GM history! I think John hit the nail on the head about what really killed these cars when they debuted - even with the addition width - the packaging of these cars was just too close to the N cars which cost half as much. Also, because of unfortunate program delays, the cheaper N cars were introed first - which resulted in an Eldorado & Seville ( and Toronado & Riviera ) which debuted looking like their MUCH more inexpensive Pontiac, Olds & Buick cousins. This turned the old axiom of making the inexpensive cars resemble the expensive ones upside down and led to disaster in the showrooms for all 3 divisions that handled these E cars. Even the V8 and much more sophisticated engineering of the E cars compared to the N cars made no difference to most when they were parked side-by-side. Love begins with a look.
I bought my second 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado from a couple in Fountain Valley, California. The wife's car was a 1986 Eldorado in light yellow. She loved the smaller size as it fit in their garage better.
Its weird how they drew big wheels then but now they finally use them
It's so interesting to see how forward thinking their early concept sketches were. Some of those sketches look like cars that came out 15-20 years later.
Things were so different in 1980 when the cars were initially planned to 1985 when they debuted. Gas prices, change in tastes of the affluent, the decline of the coupe market, etc.
This is fascinating. A example of executives who didn't care about customers or failed to listen to people who did!
Adam, I really enjoy listening to you speak. You are so well spoken, and so sharp. I feel like I'm listening to someone that is from a whole other dimension. I really enjoy the channel.
Love those super-low-profile taillights in the concept art. Really clean.
My 1985 Olds 98 was often mistaken for a Seville. How many 1986 Seville owners were asked about their Olds 98? That might have something to do with the sales flop.
The same fate happened to the downsized 1986 Buick Riviera and Oldsmobile Toronado. The biggest criticism with those cars was that the downsized look appeared too similar to the compact N Cars(Buick Somerset/Skylark, Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais, Pontiac Grand Am).
@@donaldwilson2620 Back in the late '80s a customer of mine drove one of these Eldorados, and his wife had the Seville. Good people! Their field managers had Lincoln Town Cars as company vehicles. Not bad for a "Mom and Pop" shop.
Whoa! 13:48. A Cadillac version of the 94 Impala SS! Wow that would’ve been awesome. What could’ve been. That would’ve predated the performance “V” line by a number of years. I love the lines of that sketch!
I remember having one of this generation Sevilles as a rental in the mid-late 80's. The conservative styling (especially compared t the totally bizarre-bustle-back previous gen) was appropriate for the day. The interior, however, was an ergonomic disaster with things like pump-to-set parking brake which, with Cadillac's automatic parking brake release, meant you could never use it as a true emergency brake. The competition was not coming from Ford or Chrysler but from the foreign makes (originally German and now Japanese) who were making much more pleasing vehicles.
I like vinyl roofs but these cars look their best as slick tops. Really a good design, and I've been quite enamored with this gen car for a few decades now.
it's easy to look at the Eldorado and Seville as a letdown as that's a huge gamble when people are used to something more. it's like eating steak every night and then being told you're getting hamburger from now on. the gm team.had a tough challenge.
personally I very much like the smaller eldo and seville and actually like them more than the famed late 70s versions of both.
if you look at them as individual creations, and dont compare to their predecessors they are fine cars, targeted at the times. the team was essentially in a situation where the battle was steeply uphill with many many odds stacked against them.
they should feel proud of their work. if I wanted an Eldorado and was told I could only have 1, a 78 or an 86, I'd instantly take the 86. same for the seville.
Love hearing from these designers Adam thank you for capturing their insight , I personally think they did a good job given the restrictions put on them, I've owned a couple of Buicks Cadillacs, Olds and a 87 bonneville from that period and I found them to be nice driving cars and as a young family man back then I could afford them
Some of the designs are stunning. But the final product - especially without the windshield at low angle - miss the mark. Either it needed a much less sloping front or it needed the windshield angling into a sloping front.
The 86 Eldo and Seville came out when I was in college and began driving my first Cadillac, a 1980 Coupe Deville that my mother had helped me buy used (with very low miles) from a family friend. My problem with the Eldorado and Seville from this era was not only that they were even smaller than their predecessors, but that they looked too much like each other. And of course they did since John M. talked about that the cars shared hoods and front fenders. This kind of parts sharing wasn't new, but the Eldo began as its own high end car different from other Cadillacs in the 1950s, then began to drift toward just being another trim package for the DeVille/Sixty Special in the early 60s before becoming the wonderful design triumph in 1967. The '71 Eldo was again unique as was the '79 and the '80 Seville didn't look like the Eldo even though they now shared the same platform. But the worst thing I can say about the '86 Eldo is that it was just a 2 door Seville and had abandoned any kind of semblance of a personal luxury coupe.
The irony is that Lincoln didn't forget what a personal luxury coupe was supposed to be and came out with the Lincoln Mark VII, in 1984 while these Cadillacs were in development. And especially with the sporty LSC version, the car took the automotive press by storm and which followed by better sales. The Mark VII abandoned the formal roof line, keeping enough Lincoln cues in the front clip (Rolls Royce waterfall grill) while making a more dynamic styling statement. Both the Mark VII and the '86 Eldorado shared a similar wheelbase, but the Mark VII was a longer vehicle, especially with the rear overhang. Lincoln had the advantage in that the Mark VII was still a RWD car where most Cadillacs had transitioned to FWD. Ironically the Eldorado had been a FWD car for two decades but hadn't really suffered from a styling identity until this car.
The other styling problem I have with the final cars (both of them but especially the Eldorado) is that the Eldo lacked a flamboyance that the nameplate had enjoyed for most of its existence (early 60s cars excepted). Maybe the 1980 Seville was too much for people because Cadillac swung very much the other way being very conservative.
When I see John's sketches, I think what if he'd had more freedom and frankly more money to make a proper car. Smaller wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it needed to be a car that really looked like it could go toe to toe with the Mark VII or similar competitors. I could easily could have seen a 4 seater, sportier vehicle that was larger than the upcoming Allante (also on the modified Eldo platform) but with a spirit and sportiness harking back to the 1967 car. In the end, the next generation Eldo and Sevilles diverged in styling in 1992. But by then the damage was done with buyers who continued to abandon Cadillac for German makes, and in the 90s, for Lexus. If I were GM back then, the target competition car was the Mercedes 280CE.
WOW same here dude! I was in college in '86 and had bought MY first Cadillac the year before. It was a 1977 Sedan DeVille D'Elegance. The only difference was that my abusive parents not only did not help me, but were dead set against it even though I used my own money. Mine was triple burgundy with those large tufted pillow seats. My fraternity brothers used to call it 'the pimpmobile.' LOL
My neighbor up the street bought one of these 'downsized' Cadillacs. He actually had 2, an Eldorado and a Seville. I think the Eldorado came first then he had the Seville. I thought they were the most ridiculous looking things!
I love the looks of the mark vii. One of my favorites from the 80s
@@thisguy2720 I never cared for the look. I much preferred the Town Car over the Mark.
@@retroguy9494 you're the old persons car type then lol,
cause that was who bought the Town Car were middle age
and old people. the Lincoln Mark always attracted the mainstream
buyer and younger people, along with the Continental.
but that changed after the final Mark series ended,
by 1990 the Continental was no longer the car of the people.
the 90's Town Car was exclusively bought by old people.
Thanks Adam & John for sharing this interesting video!!! 👍👍🙂
During my first visit to the United States in 1989 me and my Mum rented a burgundy Seville. While being a life long lover of American cars I deeply hated the downsizing after the late 70:s. That being said, we both loved the Seville, a great ride despite being such a small car. Still a fairly luxurious interior compared to the misery of today. As a true testament to this experience I still drive a 1990 DeVille as my daily.
Ditto - I'm a lover of late 50's early '60's cars, especially the big fin Cadillac's and Chevy Impala's. They were statement pieces of design and engineering, unlike today's inverted jelly moulds on wheels 🙄
After the interview with Bob Lutz, we learn how complex the auto industry is. Mr. Manoogian's designs are fascinating and great! And then you see the final product, and ask "why?!?"
If Cadillac had used his front end design, they would have been legendary and sales successes, in my opinion.
Wow...this guy made renders at an INCREDIBLE speed.
And they look so great!
☮
Imo time has been kind to these - they look unique now. Though the Seville needs that strike line along the body, it visually impacts the body design well.
Some of those designs the front end goes from Chevy Corsica to Ferrari.
A coworker had a 1988 Seville. It was white with red leather interior. I road in this car many times and I'm 6'2" and he was tall too. It was a comfortable car but a bit small because you sat close to the door panel, just like the 90's Catera. The dash was low too. It also sat so close to the ground. What I don't like about all cars is being close to the ground. I prefer a car that sits up. That's why I bought a Challenger instead of a Camaro or Mustang and my truck. These Cadillacs were liked by women but not so much by men. It was obviously small and Americans then were having a difficult time with the value in small luxury cars. They didn't seem like you got value for what they cost. They were nice cars. Of course GM reacted to complaints about the size and enlarged the next generation.
Thanks for sharing the artistry!
Wow, wow, wow..... wow. Thank you for a fantastic video. Love Cadillac!
Interesting. John is a great interviewee. Very informative. Unfortunately I can’t deny I unequivocally hated (and still hate) this generation of Seville and Eldorado. I love so many vehicles. These two cars simply aren’t two of them.
My family went from 79 Coupe Deville, to 85 Eldo to 90 Seville on the Cadillac front. When the 90 Seville was parked in the driveway, I was like THAT is a CADILLAC??? It looks terrible. But the ride to me was Cadillac, the tech inside was Cadillac- thought the seats looked to skinny... Once I drove it, I was amazed at the get up and go of that V8 in the baby cadillac. The 90 Seville was bought used and first car which had a CD changer in the trunk. Overall learned to really like it! Looking back, the rear lights grew on me, very interesting seeing the early sketches with the very thin lights.
I now own a 91 Cutlass Convertible, interesting to remember that the 90 Seville also had that what I always thought was odd, but my Cutlass has too- seeing the front wheels sticking out so much from the straight on view.
I remember these well, for a special reason: I was a member of the local Cadillac-LaSalle collector's car club, and we had a car show hosted by a Cadillac dealer in 1986. The dealer moved a lot of the new, 1986 Cadillacs to a back lot so that the classic V-16 Touring Sedans, 1939 Series 60 Specials and tail-finned convertibles could be easily spotted by the folks passing by on the freeway.
My best friend's skunky brother (zero impulse control) discovered that the Cadillac crest on every new car's C-pillar was attached with cheap double-sided sticky tape. So, while nobody was watching, he went around and turned every one of them upside-down.
And no, we never got invited back!
On the good side, my friends and I discovered that the tail fins on my 1961 Imperial Crown Coupe and those on a friend's 1959 Eldorado were exactly the same height, measured from the bottom of the fender!
16:54 Massachusetts didn't require a front plate back then, but it does now, so it's a good idea to save the front plate holder even in states that don't currently require one.
You keep creeping up in the years. I am hoping you will eventually cover the 1994-1996 Buick Roadmaster and Cadillac Fleetwood. (And if you HAVE to, the Caprice and Impala of those years).
Adam, another wonderful video. I too love hidden headlights!
I really like the clay eldo proposal posed in the photo next to the production car!
It’s easy to see why when compared tp the previous model. Many owners kept their cars or bought Lincolns.
It is a shame John didn’t get his way with his clay mock up. That was a much better looking car than what they ended up with. I agree with you too Adam. Concealed headlights all the way, especially when part of the grille treatment.
Super interesting video! I love those concept drawings!
A great look into part of Cadillac history.
Always thought the only thing interesting about the Seville was how the C pillar met the trunk ahead of the rear wheel centerline. Just bought a ‘90 Seville with the fake convertible top. Gets compliments all the time.
Gee, it took until just recently for those wheel and tires to actually become available. John was way ahead of his time!
The roofline of very early Eldorado Sketches 7:20 turned into the 1988-1996 Buick Regal Coupe 🚘(which sold over 400k units over 9 years) almost exactly. So not a total loss.🚗
1989 Eldorado here, I've had a 1979 1999 and now the 1989 Cadillac all of them red. Love the Cadillacs
Some of those sketches are quite unusual. They don't look Cadillac at all
I just absolutely loved this!!.....and I am not an art guy and I generally dislike concept cars. But this was so fun! I actually wish I could own one of these sketches. What is happening to me!?!? Thank you so much for showing your work with us John, I loved it.
I. LOVE. THESE. VIDEOS.
John Manoogian : the best car designer in USA in the last 40 years.
My Aunt purchased a new 90 Eldorado and I got it from her @2002 with only 25k miles on it. Always felt the prior generation styling was way better. Wasn’t a bad car as I ran it to over 185k miles and sold it. The fake carriage roof was interesting as one day I hear some wind noise and the damn thing flew off!! Ended up replacing it. This was one of least respected generations of the Eldorado.
I remember walking into a Cadillac dealership when this car was introduced. I thought, wow, what a marked improvement to the Cimarron. This should sell well. Then I saw the price and realized it was a Seville. Kept my bustle-back.
I love my 1990 Cadillac Seville silver with Burgundy interior!! Out of every Cadillac I ever had I miss that 1 the most! Didn't have it long X wife had a accident with it
Creases in your pants look sharp! But not in jeans 👖
What controversy? Ive always loved the very tailored conservative design of this Seville, the high wheel arch and short deck was a signature look.
Ironically, Adam, in the second set of drawings you showed of John's, the shape of the Seville he created in 1980 (bottom car of the three displayed) looks remarkably like the mid-nineties Seville that made it to production! I always thought that was a particularly handsome Seville. 😉😎
While I personally adore this generation, the fact remains that virtually everything GM designed in the early to mid 80s ended up looking, ultimately, as if it was a humble N-body (Calais, Grand Am, Somerset/Skylark). I recognize that budgets were tight but *SOMEONE* had to see this similarity of the raked A-pillar, very standard B-pillar, and upright C-pillar. It's unfortunate because there was some very courageous engineering underneath this seemingly similar skin, but buyers had so many choices - often more reliable ones - that GM became second rate. Too bad, as Mr. Manoogian shows, there was such talent laid to waste by the bean counters.
More interviews with John please.
I don't suppose that the finance guys had anything to do with those unrealistic packing constraints?!!
Of course not ;)
I always liked the downsized 86-91 Seville, nice size for the time, but the redesign which I think was 92 , was very nice. My Mom had a 94 Seville
These are super duper interesting car models, keep up the good work.
This generation of Seville is my favorite, if it was good enough for Deacon Frye it was good enough for me.
You can excuse the Cimarron because it was an all new car being rushed into production to meet an all new need and thus was mandated to go to a chassis that was already in production as a cheap econobox.
These downsized Eldorados and Sevilles had no excuse. They were staples of the Cadillac lineup, and the Eldorado name had been Cadillac’s luxury personal prestige coupe since 1954. Cutting them down in size was simply sacrilegious.
My Grandfather had a 1985 Eldorado that he had ordered from Central Cadillac on Carnegie Ave in Cleveland Ohio. Final assembly at the New Jersey plant was Sept. 26, 1985. He took possession 10/14/85. Right when the ‘86s were starting to be rolled out.
When he picked his up he told the dealer the new ones looked like Hondas lol
Chevy buyers cared about MPG's, but I think a Cadillac buyer would give up some MPG for a bigger car even at the predicted prices.
The first and the last 1991 were the best of this design.. for my opinion 🇺🇸 and engine development.. to 4,9 l
Interesting episode!
I'm betting this Man had a hand in the design of my 91coup DeVille. I approve of it, the cladding from the rub strip down and All round the car and the taillights is what sets it up.👍
SOME 35 YEARS AFTER THESE CARS CAME OUT. TO ME THEY ARE GETING VERY HANDSOME. ALMOST BOUGHT 1 OR 2 IN THE PAST FEW YEARS. MY #1 FAVORITE WOULD BE A 91 ELDO #2 WOULD BE 91 SEVILLE, LAST YEAR OF THIS BODY STYLE 1 FIRST YEAR FOR THE 4.9 V8.
That design @ 10:20 is brilliant.
This guy's designs were much better than the actual product
13:25 Adam, after that comment on exposed headlights, I now know that a 1970 or 1971 Sport Fury or Fury Gran Coupe is fair game for you. 😃
The low grill with a forehead was on the 79 - 85 olds toro . Looked great .
My first car was an 86 Barritz when I was 16 with a phone custom grille and fifth wheel kit. It was candy apple red with the silver bottom trim and It's been about 20 years since it was totaled, there was an older man that lived in my neighborhood who had one that was almost identical but navy blue and his grandson who is my age that I went to school with and still has it. I've wanted for years to ask to sell to me. I've been looking for another one ever since. I love that style with the flat tail lights for only that year. But I could only find a 90 with the fin tails but the same style.
Cadillacs stopped being Cadillac years ago... not sure honestly if they were truly any different than a gussied up Chevrolet. Or a copied Oldsmobile... these were and will always be a joke.
It's pretty common for a given model to have great sales in the first couple years and then taper off somewhat, and then the next model to see sales jump back up. For these sales to plummet below half of the last year of the previous model is a sure indication of total disaster.
I love the look of both of those but I see why 1986 Cadillac customers wouldn't like them.
The proportion were always odd to me but seeing the sketches I can see more of the beautiful design ...
Love these body styles
You know, I really don't mind the exterior styling of these, especially after the facelift. I even kind of wanted one when I was in High School (mid nineties.) To me these were more in line with what the Cimmaron should have been. Just too small to carry the eldo/seville monikers. IMO what really lets this generation of the seville / eldo down is the odd dashboard. I remember being disappointed with it at the time (I was expecting an interior more like the next generation, or just slightly less advanced like the concurrent lincoln mark vii 84-92.)
The designers did the best that they could do given the package they were given. Although I did not like these cars at the time in retrospect I do admire the greenhouse on the Seville (similar to the '86 Deville) which had limo-style doors that went into the roofline as well as the crisp and simple fender lines.
Thank you for another informative and enjoyable video. I wanted to be a car designer before l could write. After my Mom passed l found she kept all my drawings from kindergartner onward. My kindergarten graduation program lists my future profession as "Car Designer" while most boys wanted to be firemen or policemen. I was certainly unique. I stupidly didn't follow my dream. So l really enjoy your conversations with these designers. Thank you again.
I'd bet that the low sales WAS NOT due to the styling of these cars. Though I agree the difference in size had to be a factor, I believe it was their REPUTATION, due mainly to engines. I think now as well as I did at the time these are beautiful.
The biggest problem with the 85 year & forward was that Cadi designers were given size limits fitting that of the foreign luxury brands. This limit meant that Cadillac could no longer design a ridiculous car geared on behemoth flash only. With the given size constraints, Cadillac had to make cars to compete more on substance rather than superficial appearance. This was impossible as the American car industry never was built around strong engineering.
Hello Adam, one thing that came to mind watching this was, (not necessarily design criteria) but what was / is the "requirement" for taillight brightness or square inches to meet standards? As always, thanks for the great content, and to John for sharing an in-depth look at car history.
14:41 The '82 Cavalier and Celebrity ended up getting similar faces to this one.
Have you ever thought about doing a video on the 86 to 92 Oldsmobile Toronado? I would be especially interested in the 1990 to 1992 redesign. I owned one at one period and thought it was an absolutely beautiful car, with styling cues of past Toronados.
The 1986 El Dorado, Seville, and Cadillacs were responsible for the great success of the Lincoln Town Car. Do not doubt this.
I think the down sized post-bustleback Seville was a masterpiece for the same reasons the downsized Olds 98s were. Beautiful proportions and details. In fact, the two are remarkably similar.
Same designer on the team