Keep Demondred, Ishamael (Increase his role even), Ravin, Lanfear, and Moghedien. Add maybe one or two more, then give the rests BEST character lines to those still in.
Daniel Greene what if you just kept aginor and balthamel dead? You kill be’la quick anyway Boom you’re down to 9 right there I think you could probably give mesaana and graendals role to mogheddien. I think it’d be tough to get rid of sammael
It's funny because I find most of the male forsaken were useless compared to female ones. So in my point of view, I would rather put Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage for example. Demandred and Ishamael/Moridin are the most developed male forsaken and the most threatening. Thirteen main villains seem 'big' for a tv show, even for a long one. However, I think suppress half of them is too much, maybe keeping ten of them is sufficient.
I would be keen to see a lot of the Wonder Girls chilling at the traveling circus, and and Matt's road trip with them thereafter. It's a nice background detail to see the the group help multiple main characters, but it takes so much time, and mostly spins a lot of wheels to allow other characters to get to various places they need to be in.
Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount in Book 12 is the crux of the entire Wheel of Time universe. If that is taken out, they might as well not put the series together in the first place.
Yeah, cutting Morgase kind of goes along with that. Her story arc is mentioned in Daniel's #1 wheel of time moment in another video. I like that this moment at the end features several of the minor plot arcs and highlights how the war against the shadow isn't always fought by legendary figures.
How Lan and Nynaeve's romance started in the books was just so spontaneous that maybe onscreen it can be a bit more fleshed out and less violent braid tugging coz I don't think the actress's hair can last that long.
Romances in the book were just awful in a developmental standpoint. They characters that are involved act like they've known each other for a while and we get thrown in the middle of their relationship when that is not in fact the case
*Spoilers* I could see them cutting the whole Elayne fight for the throne political drama. Maybe she just accepts Rand handing her the throne and we move on. I could also see them cutting or trimming the time Egwene spends learning to use the world of dreams. I could also see them cutting the whole Faile is captured thing down to like 1 episode.
Or half a season. I mean, the Faile episode takes some 3 books. Stuffing all of that in one episode isn't really the best idea. But definitely shorten it
Yeah maybe have two, three if you want to push it, episodes about Faile’s capture, but not back to back, so it seems like it happens for longer but the screen-time isn’t too long
Nope keep the Elayne plot since its important leading up to her taking command at the last battle, however skipp al the negotiating with the seafolk and the kin (actually kill the kin entierly) and skip almost everything after the throne is taken and jump strait to the battle.
@@xplicitmike She's kind of important for Perrin's personal arc so I don't think they should cut her entirely, but we could definitely stand to see a lot less of her.
I just want to know how they will handle the big 3. With Rand, how will they portray the lews therin in his head, with Mat, it's the dice, and Perrin, the wolf dream and mainly communicating with the wolves. These are key aspects to the 3 main character the will make or break the series. And yes, the dice in Mat's head need to be there.
That certainly will be interesting--I can't think of another dramatic show where you see what is going on in someone's head depicted. I think they only need as much of the wolf dreams as is necessary to establish that Perrin could lose himself in them.
The dice could be done through musical score and subtle sound effects with a mumbled comment when the the event is over like, "Dark One's eyes again". Would need to see a dice game in an early episode to familiarize the viewer with the good and bad rolls though
I didn't really care for Perrin or his story that much, and I imagine most people won't. I could see his character being reduced in scope to make room for some of the female characters having more screen time.
im considering if the wolf dream should be skipped entierly with perin, it doesn't really go annywhere untill the last book, better develop his comunication with the wolfs and fear of loosing controll in the real world instead.
@@joelt2002 so I used to not care for Perrin either however upon rereading for the billionth time in conjunction with audio book narration I started to really appreciate him in a way I never had before. I'd go into more detail but I think the fun is for people to figure it out in their own way and time so they appreciate it more xD
Why even consider book divisions in deciding season structure? All plotlines are know, the book series is complete. So just map out the character arcs, and place season markers in organic story places.
Couldn't agree more with what he said. Create seasons according to how plotlines are written and executed in the series, and not necessarily on the books. for example, Crown of Swords, Path of Daggers and Winter's heart probably don't even need one season. Go by the merit of the script and not by the books
While I agree a lot of the Shaido's role could and should be cut, I don't think they should be taken out entirely. To me, the biggest advantage of them staying in is to emphasize that the Aiel are not a monolithic culture. They have many different factions, and the Shaido work well to show that there is resistance to Rand among them.
I didn’t mean to take them out entirely I just believe they should be fully destroyed at Dumais Wells. It would be a fitting end and help the end of the series pick up a LOT.
I'd say after the battle at Cairian (totally misspelled that) down in importance, maybe mention them in passing every now and then until Dumias Wells and Failes kidnapping . But they do need to be around for Faile's capture, i know everyone hates that section of the books but its important because Perrin being away from Rand for so long was important to rands development
@ZodiacShotgun i dont think they should kill her she's kind of important, ie Perrin would literally allow himself to die if she did. And the shadow would just kill her, and bandits would undercut her as a character the only reason she got kidnapped was because she was captured by the Shiado, regular bandits aren't a serious enough threat to Perrin or her. And without that plot line you get rid of one the reasons the Sean Chan team with the forces of Light in the end, that one general voched for the to Toun at one point helping the offer look more appealing
I’d say keep the Shaido through the battle of Cairhien and then either completely destroy them in the battle or have the retreat to the waste so broken and never hear from them again.
i am just hoping that when the time comes, and "Kneel, or be knelt" is said, that it is done well, and that millions of people see it. because everyone should know what badass is.
I think you can combine some of the Forsaken. Mesaana & Semihage, with maybe Semihage characteristics, but with Mesaana's plotline of infiltration of the White Tower. Balthamel & Rahvin could be combined without really losing much, and it would fit Rahvin being Asan'gar. Finally I feel Be'lal could be discarded completely and Sammael have Tear & Illian. I do not really think losing or combining any of the others can be done to any extent without causing major ripples in the story.
@@kylethomas9130 i do think the reincarnation aspect is an important part of the plot tho since it clearly shows the Dark Ones power within the world at that point.
Hadn't thought about those but Masema could definitely be safely cut. Probably some of the Whitecloak politics but they are useful as villains for Perrin.
First off I understand you posted months ago but: I like the Whitecloak stuff but its like maybe just 1 scene or 2 every season. Daniel is right we don't need Morgase so just have like 1 scene killing Pedron Niall, 1 with the Seanchan takeover, then like total 3 for Galads Whitecloaks in exile deal.
I love the aiel, too, and would be glad to see them featured heavily. However, one thing that should be considered is not making them too much on screen like the Fremen from Dune (who were an obvious source of inspiration for the aiel). The same goes for the Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit from Dune. I think the screenwriters should pay attention to not cutting things that show how the Wheel of Time cultures are distinct from their inspirations, but some of those things are the types of things that are easier to cut.
I think to amp up the insanity thing it'd be interesting to have Lews Therin as a disembodied voice in Rand's head at first, but then it actually becomes Rand occasionally having LTT talking behind him/with him, but no one else can see him or hear him (Hormone Monster from Big Mouth, but less comedic). As for romances, I agree some need to be cut down, but I think the Thom/Moiraine one needs to be expanded on or it'll feel like it's out of left field for the viewer. If I would say keep one seemingly little thing it'd be Mat being raped by Tylin. I know his reaction is supposed to be comedic or whatever but it's a decidedly dark moment for his character, and in a world where it's far more egalitarian and even leaning toward women having more power than men, that'd be something that happens often, and I think it'd touch on a subject that is sadly taken far too lightly in the real world Edit: also keep Asmodean until like book 9. I really love his character and his death felt cheap and cut his story short for me
I have zero faith the Mat/Tylin thing can be handled appropriately because it was handled SO badly in the books. Starts out as pure comedy, then the next book we get SOME (but not nearly enough) recognition that this is a rape situation, then we're back to mostly humor but also some "he had real feelings for her", then FINALLY, a complex mixture of guilt, anger, and grudging affection... and then Sanderson goes and implies Mat was really into it and just "playing the fool" the whole time.
I think it would also be really neat to have the void as its own set, so within scenes and discussions when Rand is talking to Lews we can immediately see them interacting inside Rand's mind and also get a better feel for Lews' madness instead of just a mildly creepy disembodied voice. This would also be really great for moments like the end of book 12 when it all comes to a climax, as I for the most part imagined it this way [the void being this different environment in Rand's head] with Rand, when he asks "why?" on his knees before Lews followed by Lews being lucid af. That way we could have easy cut to's between Rand on DM and having epiphanies and so on so forth.
It would be amazing if they really Kubrick the hell out of Rand. If you set the stakes right and show that madness doesn't just mean sitting in a mental institution having some German lady say 'I never promised you a rose garden' but rather KILLING EVERYONE YOU LOVE AND PERHAPS EVERYONE ELSE TOO, then every one of Rand's military victories is also a defeat because it draws him closer to the brink. I think that every so often they should also have a modern male-Aes-Sedai go crazy and destroy his village
Season 1: Eye of the World Season 2: The Great Hunt/Dragon Reborn Season 3: The Shadow Rising Season 4: The Fires of Heaven/New Spring (as flashbacks) Season 5: Lord of Chaos Season 6: Crown of Swords/Path of Daggers/Winter's Heart/Knife of Dreams Season 7: The Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight Season 8: A Memory of Light Preferably ten to thirteen eps a season with an extra long season finale and the last ep being at least two hours long. Yes, there is no Crossroads of Twilight because literally nothing happens in that book.
John Salter I’m not sure about A Memory or Light having it’s own 10-13 episode season. It’s basically one giant battle. I could definitely see The Last Battle being spread out across 3 episodes, but I lean more towards combining ToM and aMoL, and combining Kod and tGs.
CoT is basically that 10 second scene where something happens far off in the distance and you get to see different people's reactions to it while they're shearing sheep or whatever
Definitely agree with the zombie bit. Of all the Wheel of Time plot threads in the entire series, that was the worst one I'd ever read, but luckily it was fairly self-contained. I feel like a lot of the traveling circus drama can be diminished. A lot of trimming will need to be done in the storylines post-Dumai's Wells, leading up to and immediately following Winter's Heart so we can get back to the good stuff in Knife of Dreams. Standing up the Sea Folk and ignoring them could easily become a running gag. Just like Rand shirks them, the showrunners could do the same and not lose much steam. While Loial is super-important, a lot of his side plots are unnecessary. I agree with you that rumors and political intrigue could easily become background dressing, such as briefly overhearing a conversation about what's going on while the camera plans to the main plotline. I'm also not so sure the Elmindretta sideplot is necessary, plus it changed Min's character too much, made her too much like the other females. I can't imagine cutting any of the Forsaken... BUT I think it would be great to be a little more liberal in killing them off as the plot moves along.
Yeah agreed with this. Introduce them so people know they exist, like when Elayne and Nynaeve travel to Tanchico, keep the Sea Folk there so that viewers know this is a culture that exists, but a lot of the Sea Folk stuff can get the axe without them even needing to really redo the story to account for it, they didn't do much.
It should be kept to an extent, but Nynaeve and Elayne’s journey to the Aes Sedai in LoC needs to be drastically scaled back. Second slowest part of the books for me aside from book 10 in general.
I think you could also make an argument for cutting the majority of the Kin storyline. Keep them, but it really only needs to be a scene or two involving them.
Great list! I really agree with just about all you listed here, Daniel. One thing I'm really looking forward to and is a definite must on my list is the Rhuidean chapters. They're so important for so many reasons and one of the best sections in the whole series. I also want to see a healthy dose of aelfinn and eelfinn! One thing that is on my cut list is the Perrin - Faile - Shaido storyline. I mean, it must be included but must be shortened considerably. The battle at Dumai's Wells must be what 'Hardhome' was for GOT. Finally. Considering the forsaken. Asmodean must be included, even though his part in the books is limited he is very important for Rands progress as a character. Other forsaken that must be included is, for me, Ishamael/Moridin (for obvious reasons), Demandred, Lanfear, Moghedien, Graendal and Semirhage.
i always wanted to see more within the black tower. i would have enjoyed an entire book or 2 spent ONLY there. that whole section of time not hearing anything regarding logain drove me nuts.
Shadow rising, lord of chaos and a memory of light definitly need stand alone seasons, the slog ( 7- 10) should be 1 or 2 seasons. The rest i havent really thought of
@@darthvicious9182 8 episodes in season 1. The rest haven't been decided yet , but considering that Amazon usually follows this format , I guess it's gonna be continued till the finale .
Spoilers: While I believe you could cut the Hinderstap stuff, I thought that particular chapter was entertaining. Maybe I’m biased because Mat is my favorite, but I loved that particular scene.
i think that's what he hinted at when he said zombies. i thought it was fun too, but it does seem to miss the main themes of the books and could be cut with little damage to the pattern.
Yeah, I didn't like Hinderstap until the last battle, then I thought it was brilliant. Also, heart breaking as they sent 100 of the band to join them. sheesh, that's sacrifice
So much of the content of the books, is in depth descriptions of people and places, in a visual show you see all that, and as they say, a picture, (or video in this case) is worth a thousand words.
Personally, I think the entire plot line involving Valan Luca's Traveling Show could be dropped without losing much at all. It really didn't seem to go anywhere and was basically just a way stop for several characters when they weren't needed for anything important. Also, Faile's kidnapping shouldn't be eliminated entirely, but cutting it down a LOT would be a good idea.
I really like what you proposed here. And they definitely must cut the petty squabbling, especially the "Romantic tension" squabbling which is so god-awful. LOL
Definitely combine books 7 and 8 as one and 9 and 10. I found that book 10 didn't deserve all its criticism if you view it as a very long epilogue to book 9 or at least an integrated chapter shift as it mostly consists of different perspective's reacting to the c l e a n s i n g. Not to mention the only thing Rand does in book 10 is order Logain to make peace with the collar boys.
The Cleansing HAS to be a season finalé though, it's just perfect for it. And if EoTW and AMoL get their own seasons this fits perfectly as book eight and nine will be combined into one season. Which I'm fine with. Those are my two cents. Book ten can be done in just a couple of episodes since nothing major happens in it, not saying that it's a waste of space but it's ending is not as fitting of a season finalé as either book nine or eleven.
I agree with everything except your most controversial pick: less forsaken. I think some should have their significance diminished and even be eliminated quickly or off screen, but I like sticking with something that Robert Jordan gave a hard number to.
I agree 100% here. If you really think about it, the Forsaken wouldn't take up a lot of screen time. Every one of them is important, and killing each one is a huge victory for the light. The dark one can bring them back if they weren't killed by balefire, but doing that too many times would cheapen it. It Should be a hard 13....That's what she said.
People who think anything can be page for page adapted to a screenplay really annoy me. It’s one of my new biggest pet peeves EDIT: Do you think the Dark One should have his own....idk....form? Body? I mean, do you think he should just be a ball of gas with a voice?
[SPOILERS FOR A MEMORY OF LIGHT] Well, Shaidar Haran sort of provides a form for the Dark One, but I'm assuming you are referring specifically to within the Pit of Doom. I could go either way, but I think I'm a fan of formless, as it gives more of a sense of primeval evil in the final confrontation between Rand and the Dark One. Plus, Moridin already sort of embodies the more human aspects of the Shadow, so having the Dark One contrast that makes the most sense to me.
I am kinda thinking the dark one should at first presented somewhere between the Galactus in Rise of the Silver surfer (a dark cloud of nothing) and the sphere thing in event horizon. Combined with 8 Hz sounds that make us very uncomfortable in all those scences.
Since the Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator and the Wheel of Time--not in a good vs. evil way but in the sense that he wants to break the Wheel which the Creator made--then he should be formless as the Creator and the Wheel are formless.
I think that thinking about the books in relation to seasons won't work with The Wheel of Time, even if you're thinking about combining them to make it more digestable. There are certain plot points that, in my opinion, should happen earlier in the sequence for the TV show, as well as placing certain plot points later. For example, a few of the books that take place after *spoiler alert* Rand cleanses saidin basically take place at the same time. The same thing happens with Perrin's plotline in TOM since it takes place during the events of TGS. There are many more instances of this happening, but these two are the ones that stand out to me most. In my opinion, it would make more sense to place these events logically within the timeline of the show disregarding their original placement in the books. Obviously there are some exceptions to this, but overall I think it would drastically improve the flow of the show.
Honestly, the books got confusing to me at times because the different plotlines weren't lined up chronologically. *SPOILERS* (relatively mild) We had Tam telling Rand that Morgase was with Perrin an entire book before Perrin & co found out Morgase was who she was, making it seem like Tam could somehow just id the Queen of Andor on sight, or that they had just skipped over that reveal after dragging it out for four book.
Honestly, probably less. I mean there's probably at least one whole books worth of descriptions just about what people wear and see when they walk down a hallway.
@@Merecir I mean two die right off of the bat, so 11... Then Rand kills ole boi in Tyr, can't remember his name. So 10 by book three was it? I don't maybe just get rid of them faster, but I think they should keep all 13.
@@cameronyeager7482 Aginor and Balthamel returned as Osan'gar and Aran'gar. Be'lal was permanently killed by balefire. Ishamael returned as Morindin. Rahvin was balefired. Sammael was consumed by Mashadar and assumed permanently dead. Asmodean betrayed the shadow (and possibly balefired). Lanfear returned as Cyndane. Semirhage got balrefired. Mesaana survived with a broken mind. Graendal returned as Hessalam. Moghedien survived. Demandred died shortly before the bore was closed.
** moderate spoilers**The entire Perrin saves Faile story, bleh hated every bit of it. Elaine joins the circus i think they can get away with cutting out much of the telehrand reahl ( sp? Sorry) cut out Matt being kept as a boy toy, Focus on the corruption within all kingdoms including the tower(s) more of our favorite "dark" channeler /Liberian, more Focus on power vs true power channeling. And tons of our favorite lead fade.
I agree so much . Every time I reread the series I just skip every Perrin section once you get to the Perrin/faile section. It drags on forever and just makes me hate Perrin so much.
Then the writer did his job. You are supposed to see the mistake Perrin is making and the potential harm his obsession with Faile could do to the eventual victory of The Forces of the Light. Its supposed to be exasperating. You can hate it if you want but its essential to the plotline and should be kept. It is through this ordeal that Perrin grows as a character the most. Its this episode that helps him come to grips with his need to be a real leader and gives him a real army to lead instead of a small cohort of Two Rivers longbowmen.
@@kharilane1340 very well stated. it can be truncated and spread out between a few episodes as other pieces are being developed. The books are certainly not linear. It is crucial to see Perrin grapple with becoming an adult and assuming responsibility.
They COULD, although I feel that the ending to Winter's Heart needs to be a season finale, it's one of the most epic moments of the entire series, and a HUGE win for the Light. Book 10 is mainly just other people round the world feeling the cleansing happening, Egwene's army marching to the White Tower, and Elayne's succession story arc, which for me is the lowest point of the entire series. 7-9 could definitely be one season though!
[SPOILER ........... possibly] To get the socio-political build up and then the final explosion of not one, but two events would be epic! These events - the conquest at the Stone of Tear and taking of Calendor, but most anticipated to see on screen for me ... The build-up and end results of Dumai Wall "Asha' man .... Kill!"
Wheel of Time has a huge advantage over the other big multi-part adaptations of recent years (Game of Thrones and Harry Potter) in that all the books are finished. The showrunners can sketch out where they need to get to, and then move or cut various pieces of the story to get there in a TV-friendly way. No need to make it up as they go along or hastily re-shoehorn in things that seemed unimportant in the early books but were actually crucial to the finale. Its disadvantage is that this is an extremely difficult story to adapt. Any TV show is going to have to lose a lot of the sheer scale that's a draw of the books - even with modern budgets and special effects, there are limits on how much of the battles and magical effects they'll be able to show off. And a lot of important work happens inside the characters' heads (Rand's madness and the use of the One Power being obvious examples) which will somehow have to be translated into something the viewer can see.
I disagree about the forsaken because they many are very influential in the plots of basically at least the first 5 books then book 7. I haven’t finished the series so I don’t know about the last 4 books but I’m sure many play a big part at the end as well
Only a few of them matter. Moghedien never actually does anything and is mostly a filler tool for Nynaeve to learn something. Aginor and Bel'al are irrelevant. Samael is pretty much just an early-appearance Demandred. Rahvin was big for one book, but any one of them can take that role.
The aspects of good, evil and in between is key to the story in my opinion. You have the protagonists, and you have the shadow, but then you also have other groups that is antagonists from the reader's perspective but hate the shadow... Like the Children of the Light for example. It just creates so much depth. Also, that the reader (or the viewer) cannot trust a character's motives, because you'll never know who is a darkfriend and who isn't. That is also key.
Season 1- Eye of the World Season 2- The Great Hunt Season 3- Dragon Reborn Season 4- Shadow Rising/Fires of Heaven Season 5- Lord of Chaos Season 6- Crown of Swords/Path of Daggers Season 7- Winter Heart/Knife of Dreams Season 8- The Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight Season 9- A Memory of Light That's how I'd break them down. The earlier books were very well paced and would make good self contained series. Jordan really dragged out his middle so those could be condensed. This will also allow earlier seasons time to build their worlds while later books are condensed to solve pacing problems.
While I agree they could mostly do 2 books a season, I also think The Shadow Rising also deserves a full standalone season. It probably covers the most ground aside from A Memory Of Light. That is also where the series becomes more mature and complex, and the audience should have plenty of time to deal with that transition. They could also take parts of New Spring, and use it as flashbacks for Moirane, Suane, and Lan somewhere after the events of The Fires of Heaven.
good call. great opportunity to expand the world for the tv show after the initial content of the first three books is done (maybe 2 seasons for them?) I would love to see each book get its own season, but I realize as a TV show, it may stall. They do build to a wonderful crescendo at the end of the third book. one super long season of like 24 episodes could do the first three books justice.
As far as the foresaken. Let it be known there are 13, but focus on about 1/2 of them. Easy enough to say “we don’t know what the others are up to”. If individual foresaken can’t defeat or turn Rand to the shadow, it still leaves the threat of the possibility that IF they were ever to come together, 13 can turn Rand. Another approach would be (would probably feel rushed) having Rand kill them off and not all of them come back. This could show the dark one only brings back those he chooses too.
Only 2 years to late... but I think they really need to play with the "who is a darkfriend" vibe.. that would make episodes keep their tension.. and as a viewer not being sure who to root for
My thoughts on Books vs Seasons. S1 - EOTW S2 - TGH S3 - TDR S4 - TSR & TFOH (especially works since Perrin's story doesn't continue into TFOH. Imagine a finale that covers The Battle of the Two Rivers, Rand vs Rahvin, and Nynaeve's TAR shenanigans) S5 - LOC (Dumai's Wells needs to be a season finale) S6 - COS, TPOD, WH, COT, KOD (yeah...) S7 - TGS & TOM S8 - AMOL For me, the stories of the first three books just felt too contained to do more than one in a season. I don't know how you organically go from the battle at Falme to Rand running off to Tear without some sort of season break. After those three, plot lines start to span books more, and it's easier to chain them together into single seasons. Looking at it, I'm not sure if the pacing would be totally out of whack or not. S6 seems like the biggest worry there, but honestly, if you significantly shorten the Faile abduction arc, and cut Morgase's scene's and Elayne's succession arc, it gets pretty managable. I'd tentatively say you could do the entirety of COT as B scenes during a finale focused on the cleansing. Maybe have the cleansing be the second to last episode, with the last being wrap up that contains key KOD details, like Lews Therin seizing control and Mat's marraige. End the season with Nynaeve's "The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don" speech and you've got a solid finale despite only using scraps of the book. I'm more concerned with how you fit TGS and TOM into one season, since there's loads of good stuff in there, and I don't really think much of it deserves cutting. Also, Rand on top of Dragonmount seems like perfect finale material. Maybe you could do something clever with the timelines and absorb season 6 into seasons 5 and 7, then give TOM it's own season? I don't know.
I just found your channel and I gotta say, you put so much work into it. I love fantasy, but I haven't read many high fantasy books and it's still so entertaining just to see/hear you talk about it. Love your channel!
10:45 darkfriends are gonna be fun. for folks who haven't read the books they are going to be wondering if every character they see might be a darkfriend after their existence gets revealed and explained. and while i don't really hate fain, i think his character can end up with a long drop on a short rope after tgh
Ffs people are crazy for wanting to cut the save Faile arc! Hugely important It makes Perrins arc so great, it got some Awesome scenes, making the hammer, aram turning on perrin, the trial with the Whitecloaks etc etc
It makes Perrin a boring piece of garbage and has officially made him what I consider to be the worst fictional character of all time. It has 0 good scenes. The hammer was boring. Aram is irrelevant to anything. The Whitecloaks are immensely boring. Just yet another magic group. Cut. It.
I agree with so much of what you said! I'm a little iffy on the romance, but more because i personally don't think they are done that well in the books. the romances often seem to come out of no where, and i definitely dont' want it to be that way in the show. I would like there to be more build up and tension of the romances, but not drawn out at the same time which is what i think you're getting at. I DEFINITELY agree about cutting down the forsaken!! Even as someone familiar with the series and a rereader for at lesat half of it, i STILL get them confused sometimes and have a hard time keeping track of who is who. much easier on the 4th read than the first LOLOL.
I'm sad because it's likely Valan Luca's circus will be cut (or at least severely reduced), which makes sense because it doesn't add much to the plot, but I love those chapters. Also, adding to why the Seanchan should stay, they provide an antagonistic force that's not associated with the Shadow. While at its heart, Wheel of Time is a story of Good vs Evil, but the Seanchan add to the complexity and make the story more interesting because of it.
The Aiel are also full of pop culture influence possibilities. If the show becomes popular like Game of Thrones, I can see everybody saying stuff like I have toh and may you find water and shade for a couple of years, the way everybody used to say Valar morghulis
Spoilers. Warning. Okay, I'm going to take a very controversial stance with Rand and the three girls. Cutting one and reducing it to a love triangle that gets resolved at the end would be so....disappointing. I'm tired of reading love triangles. I'm tired of seeing them on TV. They've become so cliche that it is nearly impossible to execute them efficiently, and it would take away so much from the story. Instead, do it better. As much as we all love WoT and RJ, we know that there were some...problems with most of the female characters. A good portion of this relates to the gender war that's set up from chapter 1 of EOTW, but it also impacts the romances a good deal. (Don't get me wrong, I love RJ and most of the female characters in WoT, but I believe they could have been executed much better than they were. Especially with all of the dress-fixing and braid-tugging. No one really does that.) Having a main character in a poly relationship would be super unique on TV. Controversial, yes, but true to the books and to the characters. Rand's attraction to Elayne can definitely be fleshed out more, but it's also very important to his development that part of that attraction is because of LTT--it helps state the case that yes, these two people are one, born and reborn to fight the Shadow. Keep Rand's relationship the way it is. Please.
I once saw someone point out that Rand's "love quadrangle" could actually be represented as a love progression: Elayne is like the high-school sweetheart, stealing kisses in hallway corners. A few books later, he's grown up a bit, and Aviendha could be seen as the exotic spring-break fling. For the remainder of the series however, it is Min by his side, helping him in any way she can, providing the emotional support of a true wife. There are a few times the other two return to him, and he is constantly making it clear he still loves all three, but this interpretation of love 'progression' resonates with me. It complements his own character progression, so I really hope they stay true to all three of those relationships.
If you want a realistic poly relationship have the following Min Rand Elayne Aviendha. Have Rand end up with Elayne and Min, and Elayne in a seperate relationship with Aviendha.
some of the reasons i believe this will be a success is that Strong Women are at the core of WoT and the conversation about Mens Health brought to bear by the madness
wel, I hope they do Moiraine prolgue from a 'New Spring' as flashbacks. Cut: yeah have no idea, there are a lot of characters that aren't necessary or can be MAYORLY reduce screen time of. There are also a lot of different plots in different city , maybe combine some of those like ebou dar and tanchiko plot
My hope is that the series become super popular. So popular that after Moiraine deals with Lanfear they feel that the market is ready for a prequel MOVIE.
i think books 1-3 need there own seasons. later books can be condensed and scenes from later books can be shuffled about with earlier books 4-10. 11-14 could be done in one or two seasons. I am thinking of 12-20 episode seasons though. Probably won't get that many, unfortunately, but I like to think positively.
***WARNING small spoilers*** I would rather see Rand hooked up with Min and keep the other two as a brief affair with a close friendship bond with the other two. And yes they should definitely focus on the Aiel. Also they can definitely cut down the amount of travel time Perrin spends and the amount of time Faile is with the Shaido. And I really really hope they choose an actress for Tuon that matches her very petite form.
They did really well with the characterization overall, but they definitely did skip out on certain details. Like how LAN is supposed to be at least 6ft 5 but they chose a fairly short actor.
With dune coming out soon as well, and given the cultural similarities between dune and the Aiel, (at least surface level ) will it differentiate WOT enough?
I largely agree with most of your sentiments. So, let me offer up my own sentiments. *******Spoilers contained below********* The series definitely needs to be trimmed significantly. However, I don't believe you were aggressive enough in your assessment. The Eye of the World really doesn't need its own season. Would likely arrange as follows: Season 1: The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt (Creates a solid season Structure where Rand learns of his destiny mid-season and finally chooses to embrace it for the season finale) Season 2: The Dragon Reborn,The Darkness Rising (Can pretty much be the Aiel Season were we are fully introduced to their culture and immersed in it) Season 3: The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos (This would be the season where you finally see the founding of the Black Tower and it coming into its own. You end this season with Dumai's Wells) Season 4: A Crown of Swords, The Path of Daggers, Winters Heart ( Huge turning point season as you build to the cleansing of saidin) Season 5: Crossroads of Twilight, Knife of Dreams, The Gathering Storm (I would make this the huge political season where White Tower and Black Tower conflicts are resolved) Season 6: Towers of Midnight, A Memory of Light. (Clean up the rest of the Political In-fighting, Get the Seanchen on board, rescue Moiraine, and kick off Tarmon Gai'don. ) Regarding your Controversial take on the Forsaken. I don't know if I would consolidate their number quite as much (maybe make Aran'gar and Osan'gar a single character), but I would definitely stop recycling them. When you kill a Forsaken, they are dead and we don't have to deal with their re-incarnations (yes, this means no Halima, or Corlan Dashiva) Also, there were a couple, like Moghedien, who felt like they were defeated multiple times but just kept hanging around. Just kill them and move on. Now, my most controversial cut. I would almost completely remove Ogier from the present day. Instead, there would be constant references to the master builders of the past. But I would treat them as a race largely extinct, with characters like Loial being re-imagined as more of a Big Foot urban legend that the characters encounter who believes himself to be one of the last, if not the last of his kind. I believe you are correct regarding the Romances. I just don't think Rand's Harem will play out that well for a television audience. Instead, Introduce the characters of Aviendha, Elayne, and Min with their own stories, and see which character organically builds chemistry with Rand during the series and go with it. Plus, it will allow you to create competing Rand/Elayne, and Rand/Min shippers. On the Topic of Romances in general, I think I would dial it back a bit for the series. Robert Jordan seemed intent on hooking everyone up with someone and seemed to be drawing out harlequin romance novel plots for each pairing. So, in no particular order, these Romances could be cut: Egwene/Gawyn, Siuan Sanche/Gareth, Thom/Moiraine, Morgase/Her devoted soldier, ect. And now for another controversial cut. I think most of the stuff with Tel'aran'rhiod (the dream world) can be cut. Most of the development can be handled in alternative ways. And I just don't think it could be realized on a TV budget in anything approaching a satisfactory manner. You would need the Inception movie budget to pull it off. As for things I would play up more. Mat's Luck. Anyone who has seen Domino in Deadpool 2 knows just how cinematic it is to have a badass owning enemies while random rube-goldberg mechanisms conspire in the back-ground to help them. This needs to happen for Mat. Play up Perrin's Wolf side. The actor needs to really bring it here. As the series progresses, Perin's posture and attitude should become increasing beastial and feral. He should have a predator like presence that un-nerves even his friends. I mean, he is basically a werewolf, just without the ability to physically transform.
I'd leave Siun and Gareth as a couple, but de-emphasize them and especially all the bickering they did. I'd also cut Berelain/Galad, and cut a lot of the Berelain/Perrin stuff, unless they decided to combine Lanfear and Berelain, which would be an interesting adapation choice
I'm super excited to see a stellar adaptation of the very beginning with The Betrayer of Hope and Lews Therin. If done right, there are going to be some intense chills on my body.
I feel like the Shaido are about as important as the Seanchan. At least, they are early on. They matter about as much early on as the Seanchan do later on.
I would say 2 books a series works for most of it, i would say condense all of the Slog (thats like 3 or 4 books) down into one with maybe some bleed over into the next. And give the last three books their own full seasons
GoT couldnt get the CGI to allow Jon Snow to even pet Ghost when we all thought they were saying goodbye for good. Theyre gonna make a live action dumais wells. Bowl of the winds? Even gateways. This is gonna fail hard. Anime is only way. By the way, if the shaido are cut entirely, than dimais wells is not dumais wells.
i don't think gateways will be a challenge at all. I'm with you on the concern about trollocs and shadowspawn coming out well. CGI will be a must for mass effect, but live model actors will help. I'm more curious about how they will envision channeling and power effects. CGI is in place to do an amazing job. It all comes down to vision and money.
[SPOILER CITY]: I hate to be contrarian, but alas, I must disagree on a couple of things. But first, I have to agree on some other points. I do like several of your ideas, especially dialing back the romance content. The Perrin-Faile romance is SO eyerollingly bad that they have to either streamline it or get rid of it. Faile could be rehabilitated in the series to become a worthwhile character, but I’d give the writers carte blanche to change that storyline as much as they want. Perrin’s adventures were always the least interesting to me. Likewise, the Rand/Elayne romance can be cut, and the Min and Aviendha romances can be a standard love triangle, with Min being the one who ends up with Rand (First Girl trope notwithstanding). The Rand/Elayne connection always seemed forced to me, but they can brush against this by having Elayne remind Rand/Lews Therin of Ilyena, and having it mainly be Lews Therin’s attraction that Rand loses once he realizes that. And the Moiraine/Thom romance even felt like an afterthought in-universe, so that can go as well. Likewise, the Siuan/Gareth Bryne romance was handled poorly, so scrap that and turn it into a conventional power struggle and grudging respect storyline. And I think the character of Gawyn, along with his romance with Egwene, can be scrapped alogether. This can allow for more focus on Galad as well, who is by far a more interesting character. Egwene, like Moiraine, doesn’t really need a romance subplot, Nynaeve has enough of that to satisfy the quota. Mat’s romance with Tuon is kind of important, but I think they need to drain as much of the feeling out of it as possible, and make it a much more pragmatic arrangement between two people who basically resolve to use each other to achieve their shared goals. We don’t see that play out in an amicable way in fiction very often. Disagree with reducing the number of Forsaken. We can, however, dispense with Shaidar Haran altogether. Some of the Forsaken should be the one-scene wonders that they are in the books: Aginor, Balthamel, Be’lal and Rahvin exist so that they can be killed for dramatic effect and the development of the protagonists, and that’s fine. Sammael’s screen time and impact can be reduced quite a bit, since he doesn’t turn into anything. Or give him something more impactful to do, make him a more compelling villain. Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana are already behind the scenes for the most part, so keeping them as figures of dread makes sense. Demandred is the most expendable though, if cuts have to be made. Or just combine him with Mazrim Taim, as originally intended. Moghedien, Lanfear and Asmodean are essential to the development of the protagonists, even though they’re the least effective and strategic of the Forsaken, so I’d hate to lose them. And Graendal has the potential to be a breakout character, and if this show wants to have nudity and sexual content to bring in that audience, Graendal is essential. And of course, Ishamael can’t be cut. But I will say that dead Forsaken should stay dead. I would keep the reincarnation of Ishamael/Moridin, because if it’s the only instance of the Dark One saving a Forsaken from death, it will have more impact. And it’s a key story point in a lot of ways, since it heals Ishamael of his own madness in the process and alters his focus. As for how to resolve Lanfear, when Thom, Mat and Jain Farstrider rescue Moiraine in Sindhol, they can encounter Lanfear first, who is a broken woman, and can either release her, mercy kill her, or leave her to her fate. Cyndane was pointless, and so was Osan’gar. Aran’gar was fun, but we can lose her if we have to. Disagree with focusing on the Aiel at the expense of other cultures. They’re pretty one-note, and once we understand ji’e’toh and Rhuidean and all that, it becomes kind of repetitive. The Shaido should DEFINITELY be destroyed at Dumai’s Wells, and Galina can just die there as well. But Rand’s adventures in Rhuidean (and Moiraine’s, and Egwene’s) needs to have a proper treatment in the series. How the Aiel change should be given due screentime, since their history and possible future are more interesting to me than the snapshot of their present-day culture that we see in the books. Agree that the Seanchan need to stay, and the White Tower/Black Tower stuff needs to stay, but that means we ought to have a little more development of Semirhage and Mesaana as well [and Mazrim Taim, whether or not he is recombined with Demandred]. They’re the ones pulling the strings, and since that fact will be spoiled from the books anyway, might as well not rely on it being a ‘reveal’ and lean into it. And on that note, developing the Shadow’s storyline more is essential, which is why I don’t want to arbitrarily delete any Forsaken. We need to REALLY hate the antagonists, and we need to be able to differentiate from characters like Elaida, who is theoretically on the side of the Light, but utterly insane, and actual Darkfriends and Shadow agents. We will need to see more from Alviarin, Galina, Sheriam, Elza, Katerine, and other Black Ajah sisters who are kind of unfocused in the book. Personally, I think we can lose Padan Fain, Masema, Slayer, and other secondary antagonists and build up the Children Of The Light as a bigger threat, though not always because of the Shadow.
"as originally intended" -- heh heh, Mazrim Dem forever. Agreed that Shaidar Haran should go. I remain convinced that until fairly late in the story development he was supposed to be Mori acting in disguise to keep the other Forses off balance. (I'm an old Compuserve forum super-poster, so I'm used to the old abbreviations.) I'm 100% sure they never even share screentime together until the final couple of books, and about 80% sure they don't even then. Plus the Superfade never worked well as being the Dark One's walking avatar; his personality just seemed too normally villainous. He even had a sense of humor unlike other Fades. (And again, pretending to be the DO's avatar is a clear Ishy trait.) So either he should go, or he can stay with a surprise development that makes more sense to the Ishy character (and to most of SH's own operations.) On dead Forses staying dead, well most of them do, of course. But I know what you mean. Some were selectively brought back because the story was running out of Forses faster than the story was progressing. Killing fewer in the first place would be better. Sammael in particular should have been off running his own plots after ACoS, not killed off-panel in a way absolutely screaming that he escaped and would be back. EVEN SANDERSON TEASES THAT SAM IS STILL ALIVE AND OPERATING! -- and that's in Book 13 if I recall! (Someone 'pretending' to be Sammael sent the Trolloc army against Rand and Company at the farmhouse, but then that turns out to just be Moridin messing with the other Forses by making them wonder if a rebel Chosen is running around. A concept which goes exactly nowhere.)
Liked your point about the forsaken. Definitely feel that they can be superb 'one-scene wonders'. But I do think that Demandred and Padan Fain play an important role in breaking up the possibility that the series be treated as a simplistic 'Good vs Evil' binary. Their characters and motivations can be explored to bring in renewed nuance. This might enable the series to turn up better than the books ( "Wishful thinking" as Daniel said in the video :p)
I see your point about the romances, but one of the things I love about the Rand/Elayne/Min/Aviendha thing is that it ISN'T a standard love triangle where someone gets picked as the "one true love" at the end. That's one of the relatively things about relationships in WoT that isn't a trope that's been rehashed 187 times in fantasy, I think it's worth keeping.
I'd hate to see Demandred combined with Taim, that would remove the one and only forsaken from this current time which seemed an important point. I wouldn't even mind another or two added as the originals are picked off.
yeah i'm sorry but love triangles are so overdone at this point that no. WoT doing a poly relationship would be something that catches viewers and be contraversial.
Interesting idea about cutting some of the Forsaken. Here's what I think: Lanfear, Graendal, Moghidien, Moridin, and Demandred are fantastic villains and HAVE to be in it. I'm pretty sure Asmodean has to be there and his role can't easily be absorbed by another Forsaken, so we'll keep him. Semirhage, Aginor, and Mesaana play important parts but are less interesting as characters. Either keep them with limited screen time, or let another Forsaken take over their role. Be'lal, Balthamel, Sammael, and Rhavin (if we're cutting Morgase plotline) really don't advance the plot in any way beyond just being an obstacle for our protagonist to destroy, and maybe that's enough of a reason to keep them so the interesting Forsaken aren't killed off before the end. IMO I think their roles should be given to Semirhage, Aginor, and Mesanna so we get good Forsaken fights as season finales without drastically changing the plotlines of the major Forsaken that have the most development.
FWLIW: My personal nickname for *_Game of Thrones_* is *_Dragons & Boobies._* Really. And I refer to *_Facebook_* as *_Zuckerberg's Zoo._* ALSO really.
Also a ton of travelling and meaningless skirmishes and battles can be glossed over. The writers are gonna have to be excellent in the way they trim and pace the script to keep the casual viewers engaged. We will see
(Obviously spoilers for a 20 year old series.) 1.) Combine books 6-8, and 9-11 (just leaving out most of Book 10 anyway). Books 6-8 work as a political trilogy of Rand trying to be 'king' and yanking the nations into line (and 6-7 involve him winding up and throwing against Sammael in Illian, which turns into a bit of an anticlimax in the books anyway.) 9-11 focus, among other things, on Rand cleansing Saidin and recovering from that with the shifts this makes in the sides now that men don't have to go insane. 2.) The 2Riv crew mature a lot in three years (or 3-1/2) of the 14 books, so having them played by older actors later isn't bad. Might even be helpful if some actors want to quit and the parts recast. Still, as noted above, I'm okay with trimming books down for seasons. Book 1 introduces so much plot, and covers so much ground (figuratively and on the map) that I understand it being a whole season. Kind of ditto Book 14, although much of that can be action which takes less time to show than tell. Book 2.... eh, I can see that being a season. It's still introducing a lot of things. But yeah, it kind of makes sense for 2-3 to be one season: Rand accepts being the Dragon and tries to do something Dragony to end the war early (killing "Shaitan"). 4-5, Rand goes to the Waste and comes back ready to stake his claim as a political leader. Books 6-8, Rand tries being a king, but the taint driving him crazy causes too many problems and he has to give it up. Books 9-11, he cleans the taint (wonder if something better can be done with that, in the books it really makes little sense), and then recuperates while the world tries to get along without him. 12-13, Rand comes back and the Last Battle starts. (Strategically it starts in Book 12.) Book 14 maybe fr its own season. So 7 seasons, maybe 6. 3.) Queen Morgase (Elayne's mom). She should stay long enough to set up Elayne's political situation, then die off. Agreed that her story is interesting but it doesn't affect the plot, other than giving the Ultrageneral Bryne some motivation not to retire and to fight for a side (which he'd have anyway with Elayne, plus just being generally a good guy). Losing Morgase tragically in Rand's raid on Caemlyn, when he thought he'd be able to save her, would add dramatic punch -- instead of only dramatic irony (since most people think she's dead anyway, but the reader knows better.) 4.) The Shaido might be more workable (after Dumai's Wells) if they got absorbed into the Seanchan's return. I do like having them around to sow chaos, I understand the point to that. Maybe just have them offscreen most of the time causing plot problems. 5.) While having MT be Demandred (after all) makes some sense, I understand the point to him competing with Rand thematically albeit less directly by becoming the anti-Dragon (so to speak) of the Sharans. Bringing them into the Last Battle adds a lot of punch, and makes the world a bigger place, too. But maybe it should be Sammael doing this, after easily escaping from the Mashadar at the end of ACoS. He was being set up as a wild-card threat, and even Sanderson teases the idea that Sam is still out there operating against the Forses in his own alternate-evil plan to impress the Dark One and earn the Nae'blis title. 6.) Most of the Forses only function as temporary hurdles anyway, operating behind the scene or only for a few scenes across a 'season', so I'm against reducing them. If anything, the Shadow should be promoting new Forses! (Which in the books only happens with Taim, if I recall correctly.) Bringing Forses back from the dead was something the Dark One didn't do in the prior War (or at any time since -- bringing back competent Dreadlords for example would have been a great idea). It should be rare if done at all. Maybe just don't kill off the more plot-important ones like Lanfear only to bring them back later in new bodies (apparently borrowed from other people anyway, like the poor Aes Sedai tortured to death by Semi -- seems like Cabriana got turned into Cyndane.) 7.) What should generally be cut (speaking as someone who plays with a project of condensing books 6-11 into two books, "Upon the Heights" and "The Shadow Falling"), are scenes that don't involve the main protagonists, the main antagonists, or plot-important secondary antagonists -- because they're the coloring contrast to the protagonists. Various characters can be cameos, but that's it. 8.) Speaking of secondary antagonists, I kind of agree with some people below that Padan Fain should be cut out fairly quickly. Even RJ didn't seem to know what to do with him. "Mordeth" shouldn't even exist after his power-base gets destroyed and that's in Book 9! After then he makes no unique contribution to the plot, so maybe just have him end there and let his "Shaisam" form contribute to more of an action scene at the end of the Winter's Heart portion. Or maybe sooner even, at Book 7's climax (with a powered-up return for the Book 9 climax). Or maybe even sooner than that. If "Mordeth" is going to stick around, he should be more important. I always enjoyed theorizing that he was Beidomon, one of the two drillers into the Bore which started the previous War of Power, who drops out of sight immediately and never factors into the story again.
Book 6 has to be it's own season or at least be at the end of a book 5 season. Dumai's Wells is too perfect of a season finale to have it take place in the first 3rd of a season.
What is your opinion on the use of the one power. My friend and I agree it would be a difficult medium to display on screen. I think a certain delicate CG threading around the screen in related colors would work. He thinks it should be more like the force in the Star Wars series, where it isn't visually on screen but you see the effects. What do you think. Also, Love your series
I think it could depend on whether the scene is "from the pov" of a channeler or not. Like when various characters are learning to channel or doing new or important weaves, there could be CGI similar to what you said, but in a lot of scenes, it's shown more like the force. I feel like the channeling battles, with the shields, are going to have to have some effects, though, otherwise it's just people glaring at each other and making motions.
Highdruid studios don’t care about the source material, they only care about reaching a wider audience, even at the expense of ostracizing their base core of fans. Who, by the way, are more likely to watch the show, buy the merch and spread the word, but since we are considered a minority then we don’t matter. I’ve seen it happen many times before, I fear wheel of time might end up being no different.
14 books. The sheer volume of cuts that are going to be necessary to adapt this into a television series makes me very nervous. I have loved The Wheel Of Time for over 20 years. All those characters in the series are like old dear friends to me and I worry for them. Changes are inevitable and I fear that my favorite characters like Mat and Thom and Moiraine will be altered to the point that they are unrecognizable to me. I'm so torn inside about the upcoming show to the point that I almost wish that they don't even try to make the attempt to adapt this for the small screen. My fear is that they'll screw everything up....
Asmodean is actually my favorite character in the entire series (I have a soft spot for "reluctant redemption" storylines and dark, handsome, brooding musicians), so seeing him cut would be really sad. But I agree that he doesn't bring a whole lot to the overall story, so I would completely understand if he were to be.
[MAJOR SPOILERS]: I agree about forsaken count in the show, but keep 13 in the seal and the stories around them. I'd suggest just giving more of them a similar treatment as Demandred - keep them out until the last battle. I don't see why a couple wouldn't just be busy doing clerical work in the Blight until the last battle - we don't need to see them until they order the red veils to gather up the Dark banners. They could be making grey men, firing forges, etc off screen. Ishmael, Demandred, Lanfear, and Asmodean can't be changed/combined, and don't need to be. Aginor + Balthamel. tEotW really doesn't need 2 forsaken to show up, and having just one makes the others for the rest of the series way scarier individually. Aran'gar and Osan'gar don't show up until *way* after some other forsaken die, so that pair can show up iirc after Salidar just fine - just make one of them someone else, or have Ishmael kill one of the boring Blight bound types above.. Be'lal + Sammael - just don't balefire him at The Stone. I think there's room for good TV Fantasy politics of the Illian vs Tear rivalry where it turns out Brend and Samon were the same person as well. Moghedian + Rahvin - Since we're dropping the Morgase story, the timeline can make perfect sense. Semirhage + Mesaana - While it may sound insane plotwise, I think it'd give way more weight to the 13 black sister hunt if Egwene found evidence in her TGH captivity that more information transfer was occurring between some darkfriend Seanchan and some Black sisters. Much like the Samon/Brend combination. Additionally, this character and I believe both characters in the books don't do much during the Forerunners retreat to Seanchan. The real Semirhage really would have to take the whole boat ride to Seanchan before traveling back. Graendal - To me, one of the scariest in the Last Battle, but under used during the series. I tend to think she's responsible for a lot of the unexplained dark friend behavior (Anyone who plausibly took orders in dreams).
You know, I think in the later books, there are whole marathon scenes of introspection that can be cut completely, especially since most of them are tediously redundant (and also, those don't translate well to the screen anyway.) That's something that Sanderson actually managed to get a handle on for the most part, but Jordan really went off the rails there. There is also a *lot* of stuff that goes on in the later books that probably doesn't need a huge amount of screen time to cover since it will lend itself well to epic visuals that only take a few minutes or, for much of it, montage. Indeed, I can see an Indiana Jones style travelling montage for many fairly long winded sequences in the books. I mean, sure, the weevils in the grain and other travails of an army on the move are nice set dressing and all, but they didn't add much to the overall story. Also, some of the characters that got promoted to "semi-main" later on can probably be dispensed with entirely or other characters can possibly stand in for them if the specific scenes are required. Much of the time they are simply point of view characters we are familiar with so they give us a window into the events they get mixed up in. That isn't really necessary in a visual medium since we don't need a filter to observe things - we can see them directly. That was actually one of the things that bogged down the books a lot - too many characters got promoted to "semi-main". I do agree that the drama within and between the towers is critical since without it, the overall climax of the story couldn't happen. That said, some of the tedious detail can be skipped. Also, some of the "secular" political machinations are probably important, but there's no need to get bogged down in the details of city administration and the like other than maybe some background action mentioning it or a few lines of dialogue here or there.
The eye of the world is just sooo slow. Could fit that whole book into 4 episodes max. If it's any longer, they will lose too many viewers. I definitely don't want to watch a whole season of them just running.
Yes, there is lots of running and the road to Caemlyn takes forever.....but.....character development is a must. not just world building, but seeing the characters grow and interact with each other....it's essential.
I can relly see book 1-7 having its own season each, there are just so many important and interresting stuff in each one, except if they decide to cut too much material. Book 8-9-10 even 11 if they want to narrow it down can be all combined in one season. 12,13,14 can be combined in 2 seasons. Its honestly very hard for me to see less than 10 seasons without severe cuts to the whole story.
So what are you ok seeing cut for the show?
Daniel Greene so which Forsaken would you cut/who would you combine?
Keep Demondred, Ishamael (Increase his role even), Ravin, Lanfear, and Moghedien. Add maybe one or two more, then give the rests BEST character lines to those still in.
Daniel Greene what if you just kept aginor and balthamel dead? You kill be’la quick anyway
Boom you’re down to 9 right there
I think you could probably give mesaana and graendals role to mogheddien.
I think it’d be tough to get rid of sammael
It's funny because I find most of the male forsaken were useless compared to female ones. So in my point of view, I would rather put Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage for example. Demandred and Ishamael/Moridin are the most developed male forsaken and the most threatening. Thirteen main villains seem 'big' for a tv show, even for a long one. However, I think suppress half of them is too much, maybe keeping ten of them is sufficient.
I would be keen to see a lot of the Wonder Girls chilling at the traveling circus, and and Matt's road trip with them thereafter. It's a nice background detail to see the the group help multiple main characters, but it takes so much time, and mostly spins a lot of wheels to allow other characters to get to various places they need to be in.
Cut most of the braid tugging and skirt smoothing and you've saved about a season and a half ...
If I could, i'd cross my arms underneath my breasts and sniff. Pointedly!
Absolutely, I am female, & want to do a Trunchball, grab her braid & throw her over the fence. Matt is cool, why can’t I find a man like him...
Cut braid tugging? You may as well cut Nynaeve completely! Then who will box the boys ears?
You forgot the sniffing.
😂
Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount in Book 12 is the crux of the entire Wheel of Time universe. If that is taken out, they might as well not put the series together in the first place.
Yeah, cutting Morgase kind of goes along with that. Her story arc is mentioned in Daniel's #1 wheel of time moment in another video. I like that this moment at the end features several of the minor plot arcs and highlights how the war against the shadow isn't always fought by legendary figures.
It's an exaggeration, but I honestly agree. After all that happened across 14 books, that's the moment that really stuck with me.
and the apples resurrected scene)
A sentence that MUST be on the series: "the dress that your are wearing is green."
Awe man I was just rereading this chapter and it got me teary eyed
Agreed!
Verin is the most crucial aes sedai in the hole battle against the shadow and you cant prove me wrong
Definitely keep elayne learning swear words. My favourite running joke
@Robertson Thirdly rand bloody al thor!
what in the name of a bloody goat's left stone!
They should keep the WoT cussing though. I think it would work if spoken with the right intonation.
My favorite is blood and bloody ashes...
@@nekmewxelagrowing6432 Blood and ashes sounds really cheesy when spoken out loud. Same with "Light!" and "Darkness within!"
How Lan and Nynaeve's romance started in the books was just so spontaneous that maybe onscreen it can be a bit more fleshed out and less violent braid tugging coz I don't think the actress's hair can last that long.
Maybe she can have some sort of stunt braid.
glencarlo definitely agree on the romance part
Totally agree. I'd say literally all of the romances just kinda happen. They're gonna have to actually tease that out for the show
Romances in the book were just awful in a developmental standpoint. They characters that are involved act like they've known each other for a while and we get thrown in the middle of their relationship when that is not in fact the case
Yeah I think they're doing that quite well in the show
*Spoilers* I could see them cutting the whole Elayne fight for the throne political drama. Maybe she just accepts Rand handing her the throne and we move on. I could also see them cutting or trimming the time Egwene spends learning to use the world of dreams. I could also see them cutting the whole Faile is captured thing down to like 1 episode.
Or half a season. I mean, the Faile episode takes some 3 books. Stuffing all of that in one episode isn't really the best idea. But definitely shorten it
Yeah maybe have two, three if you want to push it, episodes about Faile’s capture, but not back to back, so it seems like it happens for longer but the screen-time isn’t too long
Nope keep the Elayne plot since its important leading up to her taking command at the last battle, however skipp al the negotiating with the seafolk and the kin (actually kill the kin entierly) and skip almost everything after the throne is taken and jump strait to the battle.
Better yet, cut Faile entirely
@@xplicitmike She's kind of important for Perrin's personal arc so I don't think they should cut her entirely, but we could definitely stand to see a lot less of her.
I just want to know how they will handle the big 3. With Rand, how will they portray the lews therin in his head, with Mat, it's the dice, and Perrin, the wolf dream and mainly communicating with the wolves. These are key aspects to the 3 main character the will make or break the series. And yes, the dice in Mat's head need to be there.
That certainly will be interesting--I can't think of another dramatic show where you see what is going on in someone's head depicted. I think they only need as much of the wolf dreams as is necessary to establish that Perrin could lose himself in them.
The dice could be done through musical score and subtle sound effects with a mumbled comment when the the event is over like, "Dark One's eyes again". Would need to see a dice game in an early episode to familiarize the viewer with the good and bad rolls though
I didn't really care for Perrin or his story that much, and I imagine most people won't. I could see his character being reduced in scope to make room for some of the female characters having more screen time.
im considering if the wolf dream should be skipped entierly with perin, it doesn't really go annywhere untill the last book, better develop his comunication with the wolfs and fear of loosing controll in the real world instead.
@@joelt2002 so I used to not care for Perrin either however upon rereading for the billionth time in conjunction with audio book narration I started to really appreciate him in a way I never had before. I'd go into more detail but I think the fun is for people to figure it out in their own way and time so they appreciate it more xD
Why even consider book divisions in deciding season structure?
All plotlines are know, the book series is complete.
So just map out the character arcs, and place season markers in organic story places.
Yeah, biggest mistake in GoT imo
Yes, so many plots go-on between books that I can't see being rigid with how many books a season covers.
Couldn't agree more with what he said. Create seasons according to how plotlines are written and executed in the series, and not necessarily on the books. for example, Crown of Swords, Path of Daggers and Winter's heart probably don't even need one season. Go by the merit of the script and not by the books
Big faxx .
Instead of Rand just "doing things without knowing" with the one power, he should start hearing whispers of Lews Therin much earlier
While I agree a lot of the Shaido's role could and should be cut, I don't think they should be taken out entirely. To me, the biggest advantage of them staying in is to emphasize that the Aiel are not a monolithic culture. They have many different factions, and the Shaido work well to show that there is resistance to Rand among them.
I didn’t mean to take them out entirely I just believe they should be fully destroyed at Dumais Wells. It would be a fitting end and help the end of the series pick up a LOT.
Ah, well then I would agree with that change.
I'd say after the battle at Cairian (totally misspelled that) down in importance, maybe mention them in passing every now and then until Dumias Wells and Failes kidnapping . But they do need to be around for Faile's capture, i know everyone hates that section of the books but its important because Perrin being away from Rand for so long was important to rands development
@ZodiacShotgun i dont think they should kill her she's kind of important, ie Perrin would literally allow himself to die if she did. And the shadow would just kill her, and bandits would undercut her as a character the only reason she got kidnapped was because she was captured by the Shiado, regular bandits aren't a serious enough threat to Perrin or her. And without that plot line you get rid of one the reasons the Sean Chan team with the forces of Light in the end, that one general voched for the to Toun at one point helping the offer look more appealing
I’d say keep the Shaido through the battle of Cairhien and then either completely destroy them in the battle or have the retreat to the waste so broken and never hear from them again.
i am just hoping that when the time comes, and "Kneel, or be knelt" is said, that it is done well, and that millions of people see it. because everyone should know what badass is.
I just read that part. Was great. Kneel, or you will be knelt
@@soleilclerc832 chuckle, funnily enough it has been years since i read dumais wells, it kinda sticks with ya.
“I told you to make weapons, Taim. Show me just how deadly they are. Disperse the Shaido. Break them.”
Probably the best book in the series
Oh yeah, that battle needs to take up an entire episode and hopefully they are given a big enough budget by then to do it right.
One problem with having less Forsaken I could see is that was a lot of Rand's perceived progress throughout the books, was slowly picking them off.
Just keep them. But simplify. And don't give them as much of screentime.
Rand fights Ishmael more than most, maybe even skip Rahvin.
I think you can combine some of the Forsaken. Mesaana & Semihage, with maybe Semihage characteristics, but with Mesaana's plotline of infiltration of the White Tower. Balthamel & Rahvin could be combined without really losing much, and it would fit Rahvin being Asan'gar. Finally I feel Be'lal could be discarded completely and Sammael have Tear & Illian. I do not really think losing or combining any of the others can be done to any extent without causing major ripples in the story.
It seems redundant , especially the ones that are reincarnated, since they don't accomplish much with their second life.
@@kylethomas9130 i do think the reincarnation aspect is an important part of the plot tho since it clearly shows the Dark Ones power within the world at that point.
I feel like the Prophet of the Dragon could be cut entirely.. Alot of the Whitecloak politics, too.
I don’t understand why but I really like Galad and the Whitecloak scenes.
I confess that now that I'm reading WoT, I speed read all the whitecloak politics...
Hadn't thought about those but Masema could definitely be safely cut. Probably some of the Whitecloak politics but they are useful as villains for Perrin.
First off I understand you posted months ago but:
I like the Whitecloak stuff but its like maybe just 1 scene or 2 every season. Daniel is right we don't need Morgase so just have like 1 scene killing Pedron Niall, 1 with the Seanchan takeover, then like total 3 for Galads Whitecloaks in exile deal.
I think you could swap the shaido and the prophet, so they are responsible for failles kidnapping and the slavery of the land.
Man, you really love the Aiel. You should be called Daiel Greene.
Agh, that was pretty bad. Sorry.
That was brilliant. Haha
I love the aiel, too, and would be glad to see them featured heavily. However, one thing that should be considered is not making them too much on screen like the Fremen from Dune (who were an obvious source of inspiration for the aiel). The same goes for the Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit from Dune. I think the screenwriters should pay attention to not cutting things that show how the Wheel of Time cultures are distinct from their inspirations, but some of those things are the types of things that are easier to cut.
who would not love giant ginger sand ninjas- elevator pitch right there
It's been a while, but aren't they the elite troops of his armies?
I think to amp up the insanity thing it'd be interesting to have Lews Therin as a disembodied voice in Rand's head at first, but then it actually becomes Rand occasionally having LTT talking behind him/with him, but no one else can see him or hear him (Hormone Monster from Big Mouth, but less comedic).
As for romances, I agree some need to be cut down, but I think the Thom/Moiraine one needs to be expanded on or it'll feel like it's out of left field for the viewer.
If I would say keep one seemingly little thing it'd be Mat being raped by Tylin. I know his reaction is supposed to be comedic or whatever but it's a decidedly dark moment for his character, and in a world where it's far more egalitarian and even leaning toward women having more power than men, that'd be something that happens often, and I think it'd touch on a subject that is sadly taken far too lightly in the real world
Edit: also keep Asmodean until like book 9. I really love his character and his death felt cheap and cut his story short for me
cut asmodean entierly (or kill him in rhuidian), better to have Lews therin teach rand about the one power through madness.
@@TheRacoonGhost I could live with that, I know some things will be done by different characters, but this would actually be a very interesting twist.
I think a better example would be Dexter's father in Dexter.
I have zero faith the Mat/Tylin thing can be handled appropriately because it was handled SO badly in the books. Starts out as pure comedy, then the next book we get SOME (but not nearly enough) recognition that this is a rape situation, then we're back to mostly humor but also some "he had real feelings for her", then FINALLY, a complex mixture of guilt, anger, and grudging affection... and then Sanderson goes and implies Mat was really into it and just "playing the fool" the whole time.
wow it actually kind of seems like that’s the route they’re gonna go with it
I think it would also be really neat to have the void as its own set, so within scenes and discussions when Rand is talking to Lews we can immediately see them interacting inside Rand's mind and also get a better feel for Lews' madness instead of just a mildly creepy disembodied voice. This would also be really great for moments like the end of book 12 when it all comes to a climax, as I for the most part imagined it this way [the void being this different environment in Rand's head] with Rand, when he asks "why?" on his knees before Lews followed by Lews being lucid af. That way we could have easy cut to's between Rand on DM and having epiphanies and so on so forth.
It would be amazing if they really Kubrick the hell out of Rand. If you set the stakes right and show that madness doesn't just mean sitting in a mental institution having some German lady say 'I never promised you a rose garden' but rather KILLING EVERYONE YOU LOVE AND PERHAPS EVERYONE ELSE TOO, then every one of Rand's military victories is also a defeat because it draws him closer to the brink. I think that every so often they should also have a modern male-Aes-Sedai go crazy and destroy his village
Season 1: Eye of the World
Season 2: The Great Hunt/Dragon Reborn
Season 3: The Shadow Rising
Season 4: The Fires of Heaven/New Spring (as flashbacks)
Season 5: Lord of Chaos
Season 6: Crown of Swords/Path of Daggers/Winter's Heart/Knife of Dreams
Season 7: The Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight
Season 8: A Memory of Light
Preferably ten to thirteen eps a season with an extra long season finale and the last ep being at least two hours long.
Yes, there is no Crossroads of Twilight because literally nothing happens in that book.
John Salter I’m not sure about A Memory or Light having it’s own 10-13 episode season. It’s basically one giant battle.
I could definitely see The Last Battle being spread out across 3 episodes, but I lean more towards combining ToM and aMoL, and combining Kod and tGs.
“No crossroads of twilight because literally nothing happens in that book” lmfao u right tho
Towers of midnight should be with a memory of light in a season
And knife of dreams with the gathering storm
I mean Crossroads of Twilight could be done and over with in about an episode.
mrgodliak I think it would be better if they integrated CoT episodes with WH episodes. It all basically overlaps
Crossroads of Twilight could be cut period and most people wouldn't give a shit.
Yeah considering the story progression is about zero, and is mostly overlapping with the previous book.
CoT is basically that 10 second scene where something happens far off in the distance and you get to see different people's reactions to it while they're shearing sheep or whatever
Yeah, basically just use it as a character building episode, and move on
Definitely agree with the zombie bit. Of all the Wheel of Time plot threads in the entire series, that was the worst one I'd ever read, but luckily it was fairly self-contained.
I feel like a lot of the traveling circus drama can be diminished.
A lot of trimming will need to be done in the storylines post-Dumai's Wells, leading up to and immediately following Winter's Heart so we can get back to the good stuff in Knife of Dreams.
Standing up the Sea Folk and ignoring them could easily become a running gag. Just like Rand shirks them, the showrunners could do the same and not lose much steam.
While Loial is super-important, a lot of his side plots are unnecessary.
I agree with you that rumors and political intrigue could easily become background dressing, such as briefly overhearing a conversation about what's going on while the camera plans to the main plotline.
I'm also not so sure the Elmindretta sideplot is necessary, plus it changed Min's character too much, made her too much like the other females.
I can't imagine cutting any of the Forsaken... BUT I think it would be great to be a little more liberal in killing them off as the plot moves along.
I kinda like the zombies but it should be cut. It help show the pattern/world was at a breaking point.
You could also axe the Sea Folk bits. Not much added there.
Just down play it majorly, like in passing
its a shame becouse theyve could have been as developed as the aiel in the books but where mostly just glanced over.
They seem like a part that RJ would have fleshed out before the end, or at least tried, but they got lost in the shuffle after he passed.
Yeah agreed with this. Introduce them so people know they exist, like when Elayne and Nynaeve travel to Tanchico, keep the Sea Folk there so that viewers know this is a culture that exists, but a lot of the Sea Folk stuff can get the axe without them even needing to really redo the story to account for it, they didn't do much.
But what about all the mass toplessness we will miss out on? That's how they get the Game Of Thrones fans! ;)
It should be kept to an extent, but Nynaeve and Elayne’s journey to the Aes Sedai in LoC needs to be drastically scaled back. Second slowest part of the books for me aside from book 10 in general.
I hope they keep the Ways, or at least give it some screen time. I loved that part.
Remember that this story follows a story... The Prophecy.
Also... Don’t leave out Jain Farstrider
I think you could also make an argument for cutting the majority of the Kin storyline. Keep them, but it really only needs to be a scene or two involving them.
Yep. All they're really there for is to hand over the Bowl of the Winds and show that the Aes Sedai aren't as high and mighty as they think they are.
Great list! I really agree with just about all you listed here, Daniel.
One thing I'm really looking forward to and is a definite must on my list is the Rhuidean chapters. They're so important for so many reasons and one of the best sections in the whole series. I also want to see a healthy dose of aelfinn and eelfinn!
One thing that is on my cut list is the Perrin - Faile - Shaido storyline. I mean, it must be included but must be shortened considerably.
The battle at Dumai's Wells must be what 'Hardhome' was for GOT.
Finally. Considering the forsaken. Asmodean must be included, even though his part in the books is limited he is very important for Rands progress as a character.
Other forsaken that must be included is, for me, Ishamael/Moridin (for obvious reasons), Demandred, Lanfear, Moghedien, Graendal and Semirhage.
i always wanted to see more within the black tower. i would have enjoyed an entire book or 2 spent ONLY there. that whole section of time not hearing anything regarding logain drove me nuts.
If only Verin had taken a slower acting poison, and we could have lived with her retellings for a book...or three!
Shadow rising, lord of chaos and a memory of light definitly need stand alone seasons, the slog ( 7- 10) should be 1 or 2 seasons. The rest i havent really thought of
How many episodes are there going to be in a season?
@@darthvicious9182 8 episodes in season 1. The rest haven't been decided yet , but considering that Amazon usually follows this format , I guess it's gonna be continued till the finale .
Hours of braid tugging could definitely be cut.
The entire Masema arc can just be ripped out imo.
I strongly disagree
I think there should've been a lot more to it in the books. Maybe the show can give that arc a purpose.
Spoilers:
While I believe you could cut the Hinderstap stuff, I thought that particular chapter was entertaining. Maybe I’m biased because Mat is my favorite, but I loved that particular scene.
Makes a great single episode, then a callback at the Last Battle
i think that's what he hinted at when he said zombies. i thought it was fun too, but it does seem to miss the main themes of the books and could be cut with little damage to the pattern.
I loved hinserstap, especially Matt’s genius in the last battle
Yeah, I didn't like Hinderstap until the last battle, then I thought it was brilliant. Also, heart breaking as they sent 100 of the band to join them. sheesh, that's sacrifice
@@larryhammond5907 i think those 100 were those that died there in the first place
I agree with everything, but DON'T cut the Forsaken.
So much of the content of the books, is in depth descriptions of people and places, in a visual show you see all that, and as they say, a picture, (or video in this case) is worth a thousand words.
Personally, I think the entire plot line involving Valan Luca's Traveling Show could be dropped without losing much at all. It really didn't seem to go anywhere and was basically just a way stop for several characters when they weren't needed for anything important.
Also, Faile's kidnapping shouldn't be eliminated entirely, but cutting it down a LOT would be a good idea.
I really like what you proposed here. And they definitely must cut the petty squabbling, especially the "Romantic tension" squabbling which is so god-awful. LOL
Oh, oh, the ginger guy wants everything about the red haired, blue eyed badass warriors to stay in! What a surprise!
I'm ginger too I feel you bro.
soulless gingers
Definitely combine books 7 and 8 as one and 9 and 10. I found that book 10 didn't deserve all its criticism if you view it as a very long epilogue to book 9 or at least an integrated chapter shift as it mostly consists of different perspective's reacting to the c l e a n s i n g. Not to mention the only thing Rand does in book 10 is order Logain to make peace with the collar boys.
The Cleansing HAS to be a season finalé though, it's just perfect for it. And if EoTW and AMoL get their own seasons this fits perfectly as book eight and nine will be combined into one season. Which I'm fine with. Those are my two cents. Book ten can be done in just a couple of episodes since nothing major happens in it, not saying that it's a waste of space but it's ending is not as fitting of a season finalé as either book nine or eleven.
Definitely keep the spankings of Egwene in😉
best part of the series
Lol naw not with the actress they got. I'm good. No ty
Yaaaas
I agree with everything except your most controversial pick: less forsaken.
I think some should have their significance diminished and even be eliminated quickly or off screen, but I like sticking with something that Robert Jordan gave a hard number to.
I agree 100% here. If you really think about it, the Forsaken wouldn't take up a lot of screen time. Every one of them is important, and killing each one is a huge victory for the light. The dark one can bring them back if they weren't killed by balefire, but doing that too many times would cheapen it. It Should be a hard 13....That's what she said.
I said keep the Shaido in, but let them be whiped out at the battles of Chairien and Dumai Wells.
People who think anything can be page for page adapted to a screenplay really annoy me. It’s one of my new biggest pet peeves
EDIT: Do you think the Dark One should have his own....idk....form? Body? I mean, do you think he should just be a ball of gas with a voice?
[SPOILERS FOR A MEMORY OF LIGHT]
Well, Shaidar Haran sort of provides a form for the Dark One, but I'm assuming you are referring specifically to within the Pit of Doom. I could go either way, but I think I'm a fan of formless, as it gives more of a sense of primeval evil in the final confrontation between Rand and the Dark One. Plus, Moridin already sort of embodies the more human aspects of the Shadow, so having the Dark One contrast that makes the most sense to me.
I am kinda thinking the dark one should at first presented somewhere between the Galactus in Rise of the Silver surfer (a dark cloud of nothing) and the sphere thing in event horizon. Combined with 8 Hz sounds that make us very uncomfortable in all those scences.
Since the Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator and the Wheel of Time--not in a good vs. evil way but in the sense that he wants to break the Wheel which the Creator made--then he should be formless as the Creator and the Wheel are formless.
I think that thinking about the books in relation to seasons won't work with The Wheel of Time, even if you're thinking about combining them to make it more digestable. There are certain plot points that, in my opinion, should happen earlier in the sequence for the TV show, as well as placing certain plot points later. For example, a few of the books that take place after *spoiler alert* Rand cleanses saidin basically take place at the same time. The same thing happens with Perrin's plotline in TOM since it takes place during the events of TGS. There are many more instances of this happening, but these two are the ones that stand out to me most. In my opinion, it would make more sense to place these events logically within the timeline of the show disregarding their original placement in the books. Obviously there are some exceptions to this, but overall I think it would drastically improve the flow of the show.
Honestly, the books got confusing to me at times because the different plotlines weren't lined up chronologically. *SPOILERS* (relatively mild) We had Tam telling Rand that Morgase was with Perrin an entire book before Perrin & co found out Morgase was who she was, making it seem like Tam could somehow just id the Queen of Andor on sight, or that they had just skipped over that reveal after dragging it out for four book.
The book series itself could've been condensed into 10 books anyway. It would've benefited from it, even.
Honestly, probably less. I mean there's probably at least one whole books worth of descriptions just about what people wear and see when they walk down a hallway.
I thought having 13 forsaken was something do with the number 13 being symbolic with the power
The number 7 could serve a similar purpose and actually help keep them all in mind
They could just say that there were 13 from the beginning but that some died in the war or when Lews Therin assaulted Shayol Ghul.
@@Merecir I mean two die right off of the bat, so 11... Then Rand kills ole boi in Tyr, can't remember his name. So 10 by book three was it? I don't maybe just get rid of them faster, but I think they should keep all 13.
@@cameronyeager7482 Aginor and Balthamel returned as Osan'gar and Aran'gar.
Be'lal was permanently killed by balefire.
Ishamael returned as Morindin.
Rahvin was balefired.
Sammael was consumed by Mashadar and assumed permanently dead.
Asmodean betrayed the shadow (and possibly balefired).
Lanfear returned as Cyndane.
Semirhage got balrefired.
Mesaana survived with a broken mind.
Graendal returned as Hessalam.
Moghedien survived.
Demandred died shortly before the bore was closed.
** moderate spoilers**The entire Perrin saves Faile story, bleh hated every bit of it. Elaine joins the circus i think they can get away with cutting out much of the telehrand reahl ( sp? Sorry) cut out Matt being kept as a boy toy, Focus on the corruption within all kingdoms including the tower(s) more of our favorite "dark" channeler /Liberian, more Focus on power vs true power channeling. And tons of our favorite lead fade.
I agree so much . Every time I reread the series I just skip every Perrin section once you get to the Perrin/faile section. It drags on forever and just makes me hate Perrin so much.
Then the writer did his job. You are supposed to see the mistake Perrin is making and the potential harm his obsession with Faile could do to the eventual victory of The Forces of the Light. Its supposed to be exasperating. You can hate it if you want but its essential to the plotline and should be kept. It is through this ordeal that Perrin grows as a character the most. Its this episode that helps him come to grips with his need to be a real leader and gives him a real army to lead instead of a small cohort of Two Rivers longbowmen.
@Jerry C Mat as boy toy is the best! That has to stay.
@@kharilane1340 very well stated. it can be truncated and spread out between a few episodes as other pieces are being developed. The books are certainly not linear. It is crucial to see Perrin grapple with becoming an adult and assuming responsibility.
So we miss Perrin making his hammer, fighting Aram and many other great stuff
Honestly, books 7-10 could be condensed into one season. That part of the story is easily the weakest and wouldn’t transfer well to screen
They COULD, although I feel that the ending to Winter's Heart needs to be a season finale, it's one of the most epic moments of the entire series, and a HUGE win for the Light. Book 10 is mainly just other people round the world feeling the cleansing happening, Egwene's army marching to the White Tower, and Elayne's succession story arc, which for me is the lowest point of the entire series. 7-9 could definitely be one season though!
I'm not sure what I want to have cut, but I do wish that the show gives more for Perrin to do
Yeah exactly. That's definitely something they could improve
Not a fan of Perrin spending 100 books saving his wife?
@@MattGarZero If Faile is in the show, I would be wishing for less scenes with Perrin.
i'm so nervous about the WoT tv show. i've been reading and rereading this series for almost 20 years
[SPOILER ........... possibly]
To get the socio-political build up and then the final explosion of not one, but two events would be epic!
These events - the conquest at the Stone of Tear and taking of Calendor, but most anticipated to see on screen for me ...
The build-up and end results of Dumai Wall
"Asha' man .... Kill!"
Wheel of Time has a huge advantage over the other big multi-part adaptations of recent years (Game of Thrones and Harry Potter) in that all the books are finished. The showrunners can sketch out where they need to get to, and then move or cut various pieces of the story to get there in a TV-friendly way. No need to make it up as they go along or hastily re-shoehorn in things that seemed unimportant in the early books but were actually crucial to the finale.
Its disadvantage is that this is an extremely difficult story to adapt. Any TV show is going to have to lose a lot of the sheer scale that's a draw of the books - even with modern budgets and special effects, there are limits on how much of the battles and magical effects they'll be able to show off. And a lot of important work happens inside the characters' heads (Rand's madness and the use of the One Power being obvious examples) which will somehow have to be translated into something the viewer can see.
I disagree about the forsaken because they many are very influential in the plots of basically at least the first 5 books then book 7. I haven’t finished the series so I don’t know about the last 4 books but I’m sure many play a big part at the end as well
Only a few of them matter. Moghedien never actually does anything and is mostly a filler tool for Nynaeve to learn something. Aginor and Bel'al are irrelevant. Samael is pretty much just an early-appearance Demandred. Rahvin was big for one book, but any one of them can take that role.
The aspects of good, evil and in between is key to the story in my opinion. You have the protagonists, and you have the shadow, but then you also have other groups that is antagonists from the reader's perspective but hate the shadow... Like the Children of the Light for example. It just creates so much depth. Also, that the reader (or the viewer) cannot trust a character's motives, because you'll never know who is a darkfriend and who isn't. That is also key.
Cut the number of Forsaken? Does this mean, #TaimandredLives? LOL
my fault I spose. good joke otherwise. feelsbadman. soz
Season 1- Eye of the World
Season 2- The Great Hunt
Season 3- Dragon Reborn
Season 4- Shadow Rising/Fires of Heaven
Season 5- Lord of Chaos
Season 6- Crown of Swords/Path of Daggers
Season 7- Winter Heart/Knife of Dreams
Season 8- The Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight
Season 9- A Memory of Light
That's how I'd break them down. The earlier books were very well paced and would make good self contained series. Jordan really dragged out his middle so those could be condensed. This will also allow earlier seasons time to build their worlds while later books are condensed to solve pacing problems.
While I agree they could mostly do 2 books a season, I also think The Shadow Rising also deserves a full standalone season. It probably covers the most ground aside from A Memory Of Light. That is also where the series becomes more mature and complex, and the audience should have plenty of time to deal with that transition. They could also take parts of New Spring, and use it as flashbacks for Moirane, Suane, and Lan somewhere after the events of The Fires of Heaven.
good call. great opportunity to expand the world for the tv show after the initial content of the first three books is done (maybe 2 seasons for them?) I would love to see each book get its own season, but I realize as a TV show, it may stall. They do build to a wonderful crescendo at the end of the third book. one super long season of like 24 episodes could do the first three books justice.
As far as the foresaken. Let it be known there are 13, but focus on about 1/2 of them. Easy enough to say “we don’t know what the others are up to”. If individual foresaken can’t defeat or turn Rand to the shadow, it still leaves the threat of the possibility that IF they were ever to come together, 13 can turn Rand.
Another approach would be (would probably feel rushed) having Rand kill them off and not all of them come back. This could show the dark one only brings back those he chooses too.
Only 2 years to late... but I think they really need to play with the "who is a darkfriend" vibe.. that would make episodes keep their tension.. and as a viewer not being sure who to root for
Thanks for making this! I think it's very pragmatic and important for people to get that things will have to be cut.
My thoughts on Books vs Seasons.
S1 - EOTW
S2 - TGH
S3 - TDR
S4 - TSR & TFOH (especially works since Perrin's story doesn't continue into TFOH. Imagine a finale that covers The Battle of the Two Rivers, Rand vs Rahvin, and Nynaeve's TAR shenanigans)
S5 - LOC (Dumai's Wells needs to be a season finale)
S6 - COS, TPOD, WH, COT, KOD (yeah...)
S7 - TGS & TOM
S8 - AMOL
For me, the stories of the first three books just felt too contained to do more than one in a season. I don't know how you organically go from the battle at Falme to Rand running off to Tear without some sort of season break. After those three, plot lines start to span books more, and it's easier to chain them together into single seasons.
Looking at it, I'm not sure if the pacing would be totally out of whack or not. S6 seems like the biggest worry there, but honestly, if you significantly shorten the Faile abduction arc, and cut Morgase's scene's and Elayne's succession arc, it gets pretty managable. I'd tentatively say you could do the entirety of COT as B scenes during a finale focused on the cleansing. Maybe have the cleansing be the second to last episode, with the last being wrap up that contains key KOD details, like Lews Therin seizing control and Mat's marraige. End the season with Nynaeve's "The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don" speech and you've got a solid finale despite only using scraps of the book.
I'm more concerned with how you fit TGS and TOM into one season, since there's loads of good stuff in there, and I don't really think much of it deserves cutting. Also, Rand on top of Dragonmount seems like perfect finale material. Maybe you could do something clever with the timelines and absorb season 6 into seasons 5 and 7, then give TOM it's own season? I don't know.
I just found your channel and I gotta say, you put so much work into it. I love fantasy, but I haven't read many high fantasy books and it's still so entertaining just to see/hear you talk about it. Love your channel!
3 years later.. andthey have cut.. the wheel of time itself. They kept a few characters names and nothing else.
Some of that was probably due to production and shooting problems due to covid and recasting Mat.
10:45 darkfriends are gonna be fun. for folks who haven't read the books they are going to be wondering if every character they see might be a darkfriend after their existence gets revealed and explained. and while i don't really hate fain, i think his character can end up with a long drop on a short rope after tgh
Ffs people are crazy for wanting to cut the save Faile arc!
Hugely important
It makes Perrins arc so great, it got some Awesome scenes, making the hammer, aram turning on perrin, the trial with the Whitecloaks etc etc
It makes Perrin a boring piece of garbage and has officially made him what I consider to be the worst fictional character of all time. It has 0 good scenes. The hammer was boring. Aram is irrelevant to anything. The Whitecloaks are immensely boring. Just yet another magic group. Cut. It.
perrin is BORING! cut most of him cept his interactions with rand, and main plot.
I agree with so much of what you said! I'm a little iffy on the romance, but more because i personally don't think they are done that well in the books. the romances often seem to come out of no where, and i definitely dont' want it to be that way in the show. I would like there to be more build up and tension of the romances, but not drawn out at the same time which is what i think you're getting at. I DEFINITELY agree about cutting down the forsaken!! Even as someone familiar with the series and a rereader for at lesat half of it, i STILL get them confused sometimes and have a hard time keeping track of who is who. much easier on the 4th read than the first LOLOL.
I'm sad because it's likely Valan Luca's circus will be cut (or at least severely reduced), which makes sense because it doesn't add much to the plot, but I love those chapters.
Also, adding to why the Seanchan should stay, they provide an antagonistic force that's not associated with the Shadow. While at its heart, Wheel of Time is a story of Good vs Evil, but the Seanchan add to the complexity and make the story more interesting because of it.
I hated the Seanchan the most. Who cares about the Shadow, the Seanchan were the real threat all along, lol.
The Aiel are also full of pop culture influence possibilities. If the show becomes popular like Game of Thrones, I can see everybody saying stuff like I have toh and may you find water and shade for a couple of years, the way everybody used to say Valar morghulis
Spoilers. Warning.
Okay, I'm going to take a very controversial stance with Rand and the three girls. Cutting one and reducing it to a love triangle that gets resolved at the end would be so....disappointing. I'm tired of reading love triangles. I'm tired of seeing them on TV. They've become so cliche that it is nearly impossible to execute them efficiently, and it would take away so much from the story.
Instead, do it better. As much as we all love WoT and RJ, we know that there were some...problems with most of the female characters. A good portion of this relates to the gender war that's set up from chapter 1 of EOTW, but it also impacts the romances a good deal. (Don't get me wrong, I love RJ and most of the female characters in WoT, but I believe they could have been executed much better than they were. Especially with all of the dress-fixing and braid-tugging. No one really does that.)
Having a main character in a poly relationship would be super unique on TV. Controversial, yes, but true to the books and to the characters. Rand's attraction to Elayne can definitely be fleshed out more, but it's also very important to his development that part of that attraction is because of LTT--it helps state the case that yes, these two people are one, born and reborn to fight the Shadow. Keep Rand's relationship the way it is. Please.
I once saw someone point out that Rand's "love quadrangle" could actually be represented as a love progression:
Elayne is like the high-school sweetheart, stealing kisses in hallway corners. A few books later, he's grown up a bit, and Aviendha could be seen as the exotic spring-break fling. For the remainder of the series however, it is Min by his side, helping him in any way she can, providing the emotional support of a true wife.
There are a few times the other two return to him, and he is constantly making it clear he still loves all three, but this interpretation of love 'progression' resonates with me. It complements his own character progression, so I really hope they stay true to all three of those relationships.
If you want a realistic poly relationship have the following
Min Rand Elayne Aviendha.
Have Rand end up with Elayne and Min, and Elayne in a seperate relationship with Aviendha.
some of the reasons i believe this will be a success is that Strong Women are at the core of WoT and the conversation about Mens Health brought to bear by the madness
wel, I hope they do Moiraine prolgue from a 'New Spring' as flashbacks. Cut: yeah have no idea, there are a lot of characters that aren't necessary or can be MAYORLY reduce screen time of. There are also a lot of different plots in different city , maybe combine some of those like ebou dar and tanchiko plot
My hope is that the series become super popular.
So popular that after Moiraine deals with Lanfear they feel that the market is ready for a prequel MOVIE.
i think books 1-3 need there own seasons. later books can be condensed and scenes from later books can be shuffled about with earlier books 4-10. 11-14 could be done in one or two seasons. I am thinking of 12-20 episode seasons though. Probably won't get that many, unfortunately, but I like to think positively.
***WARNING small spoilers***
I would rather see Rand hooked up with Min and keep the other two as a brief affair with a close friendship bond with the other two. And yes they should definitely focus on the Aiel. Also they can definitely cut down the amount of travel time Perrin spends and the amount of time Faile is with the Shaido. And I really really hope they choose an actress for Tuon that matches her very petite form.
They did really well with the characterization overall, but they definitely did skip out on certain details. Like how LAN is supposed to be at least 6ft 5 but they chose a fairly short actor.
With dune coming out soon as well, and given the cultural similarities between dune and the Aiel, (at least surface level ) will it differentiate WOT enough?
Most of Elaynes story...my least favorite parts in the whole series.
I largely agree with most of your sentiments. So, let me offer up my own sentiments.
*******Spoilers contained below*********
The series definitely needs to be trimmed significantly. However, I don't believe you were aggressive enough in your assessment. The Eye of the World really doesn't need its own season. Would likely arrange as follows:
Season 1: The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt (Creates a solid season Structure where Rand learns of his destiny mid-season and finally chooses to embrace it for the season finale)
Season 2: The Dragon Reborn,The Darkness Rising (Can pretty much be the Aiel Season were we are fully introduced to their culture and immersed in it)
Season 3: The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos (This would be the season where you finally see the founding of the Black Tower and it coming into its own. You end this season with Dumai's Wells)
Season 4: A Crown of Swords, The Path of Daggers, Winters Heart ( Huge turning point season as you build to the cleansing of saidin)
Season 5: Crossroads of Twilight, Knife of Dreams, The Gathering Storm (I would make this the huge political season where White Tower and Black Tower conflicts are resolved)
Season 6: Towers of Midnight, A Memory of Light. (Clean up the rest of the Political In-fighting, Get the Seanchen on board, rescue Moiraine, and kick off Tarmon Gai'don. )
Regarding your Controversial take on the Forsaken. I don't know if I would consolidate their number quite as much (maybe make Aran'gar and Osan'gar a single character), but I would definitely stop recycling them. When you kill a Forsaken, they are dead and we don't have to deal with their re-incarnations (yes, this means no Halima, or Corlan Dashiva) Also, there were a couple, like Moghedien, who felt like they were defeated multiple times but just kept hanging around. Just kill them and move on.
Now, my most controversial cut. I would almost completely remove Ogier from the present day. Instead, there would be constant references to the master builders of the past. But I would treat them as a race largely extinct, with characters like Loial being re-imagined as more of a Big Foot urban legend that the characters encounter who believes himself to be one of the last, if not the last of his kind.
I believe you are correct regarding the Romances. I just don't think Rand's Harem will play out that well for a television audience. Instead, Introduce the characters of Aviendha, Elayne, and Min with their own stories, and see which character organically builds chemistry with Rand during the series and go with it. Plus, it will allow you to create competing Rand/Elayne, and Rand/Min shippers.
On the Topic of Romances in general, I think I would dial it back a bit for the series. Robert Jordan seemed intent on hooking everyone up with someone and seemed to be drawing out harlequin romance novel plots for each pairing. So, in no particular order, these Romances could be cut:
Egwene/Gawyn, Siuan Sanche/Gareth, Thom/Moiraine, Morgase/Her devoted soldier, ect.
And now for another controversial cut. I think most of the stuff with Tel'aran'rhiod (the dream world) can be cut. Most of the development can be handled in alternative ways. And I just don't think it could be realized on a TV budget in anything approaching a satisfactory manner. You would need the Inception movie budget to pull it off.
As for things I would play up more. Mat's Luck. Anyone who has seen Domino in Deadpool 2 knows just how cinematic it is to have a badass owning enemies while random rube-goldberg mechanisms conspire in the back-ground to help them. This needs to happen for Mat.
Play up Perrin's Wolf side. The actor needs to really bring it here. As the series progresses, Perin's posture and attitude should become increasing beastial and feral. He should have a predator like presence that un-nerves even his friends. I mean, he is basically a werewolf, just without the ability to physically transform.
I'd leave Siun and Gareth as a couple, but de-emphasize them and especially all the bickering they did. I'd also cut Berelain/Galad, and cut a lot of the Berelain/Perrin stuff, unless they decided to combine Lanfear and Berelain, which would be an interesting adapation choice
whoa. Glasses. Like em.
Contacts were bothering me this morning 👁
I'm super excited to see a stellar adaptation of the very beginning with The Betrayer of Hope and Lews Therin. If done right, there are going to be some intense chills on my body.
I feel like the Shaido are about as important as the Seanchan. At least, they are early on. They matter about as much early on as the Seanchan do later on.
I like your passion! I'm excited for the show to begin shooting! It's exciting.
Mat should say “blood and bloody ashes” about 20% less....
I would say 2 books a series works for most of it, i would say condense all of the Slog (thats like 3 or 4 books) down into one with maybe some bleed over into the next. And give the last three books their own full seasons
OH BOY! DANIEL'S BROUGHT OUT THE GLASSES! BRACE YOURSELVES!
My idea would make Taim Demondred and give Demondred final scenes to Asemodin to ramp up sense of betrayal
GoT couldnt get the CGI to allow Jon Snow to even pet Ghost when we all thought they were saying goodbye for good. Theyre gonna make a live action dumais wells. Bowl of the winds? Even gateways. This is gonna fail hard. Anime is only way. By the way, if the shaido are cut entirely, than dimais wells is not dumais wells.
i don't think gateways will be a challenge at all. I'm with you on the concern about trollocs and shadowspawn coming out well. CGI will be a must for mass effect, but live model actors will help. I'm more curious about how they will envision channeling and power effects. CGI is in place to do an amazing job. It all comes down to vision and money.
Watching this during season 1 to see what you get right
[SPOILER CITY]:
I hate to be contrarian, but alas, I must disagree on a couple of things. But first, I have to agree on some other points. I do like several of your ideas, especially dialing back the romance content. The Perrin-Faile romance is SO eyerollingly bad that they have to either streamline it or get rid of it. Faile could be rehabilitated in the series to become a worthwhile character, but I’d give the writers carte blanche to change that storyline as much as they want. Perrin’s adventures were always the least interesting to me.
Likewise, the Rand/Elayne romance can be cut, and the Min and Aviendha romances can be a standard love triangle, with Min being the one who ends up with Rand (First Girl trope notwithstanding). The Rand/Elayne connection always seemed forced to me, but they can brush against this by having Elayne remind Rand/Lews Therin of Ilyena, and having it mainly be Lews Therin’s attraction that Rand loses once he realizes that. And the Moiraine/Thom romance even felt like an afterthought in-universe, so that can go as well. Likewise, the Siuan/Gareth Bryne romance was handled poorly, so scrap that and turn it into a conventional power struggle and grudging respect storyline. And I think the character of Gawyn, along with his romance with Egwene, can be scrapped alogether. This can allow for more focus on Galad as well, who is by far a more interesting character. Egwene, like Moiraine, doesn’t really need a romance subplot, Nynaeve has enough of that to satisfy the quota. Mat’s romance with Tuon is kind of important, but I think they need to drain as much of the feeling out of it as possible, and make it a much more pragmatic arrangement between two people who basically resolve to use each other to achieve their shared goals. We don’t see that play out in an amicable way in fiction very often.
Disagree with reducing the number of Forsaken. We can, however, dispense with Shaidar Haran altogether. Some of the Forsaken should be the one-scene wonders that they are in the books: Aginor, Balthamel, Be’lal and Rahvin exist so that they can be killed for dramatic effect and the development of the protagonists, and that’s fine. Sammael’s screen time and impact can be reduced quite a bit, since he doesn’t turn into anything. Or give him something more impactful to do, make him a more compelling villain. Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana are already behind the scenes for the most part, so keeping them as figures of dread makes sense. Demandred is the most expendable though, if cuts have to be made. Or just combine him with Mazrim Taim, as originally intended.
Moghedien, Lanfear and Asmodean are essential to the development of the protagonists, even though they’re the least effective and strategic of the Forsaken, so I’d hate to lose them. And Graendal has the potential to be a breakout character, and if this show wants to have nudity and sexual content to bring in that audience, Graendal is essential. And of course, Ishamael can’t be cut. But I will say that dead Forsaken should stay dead. I would keep the reincarnation of Ishamael/Moridin, because if it’s the only instance of the Dark One saving a Forsaken from death, it will have more impact. And it’s a key story point in a lot of ways, since it heals Ishamael of his own madness in the process and alters his focus. As for how to resolve Lanfear, when Thom, Mat and Jain Farstrider rescue Moiraine in Sindhol, they can encounter Lanfear first, who is a broken woman, and can either release her, mercy kill her, or leave her to her fate. Cyndane was pointless, and so was Osan’gar. Aran’gar was fun, but we can lose her if we have to.
Disagree with focusing on the Aiel at the expense of other cultures. They’re pretty one-note, and once we understand ji’e’toh and Rhuidean and all that, it becomes kind of repetitive. The Shaido should DEFINITELY be destroyed at Dumai’s Wells, and Galina can just die there as well. But Rand’s adventures in Rhuidean (and Moiraine’s, and Egwene’s) needs to have a proper treatment in the series. How the Aiel change should be given due screentime, since their history and possible future are more interesting to me than the snapshot of their present-day culture that we see in the books.
Agree that the Seanchan need to stay, and the White Tower/Black Tower stuff needs to stay, but that means we ought to have a little more development of Semirhage and Mesaana as well [and Mazrim Taim, whether or not he is recombined with Demandred]. They’re the ones pulling the strings, and since that fact will be spoiled from the books anyway, might as well not rely on it being a ‘reveal’ and lean into it.
And on that note, developing the Shadow’s storyline more is essential, which is why I don’t want to arbitrarily delete any Forsaken. We need to REALLY hate the antagonists, and we need to be able to differentiate from characters like Elaida, who is theoretically on the side of the Light, but utterly insane, and actual Darkfriends and Shadow agents. We will need to see more from Alviarin, Galina, Sheriam, Elza, Katerine, and other Black Ajah sisters who are kind of unfocused in the book. Personally, I think we can lose Padan Fain, Masema, Slayer, and other secondary antagonists and build up the Children Of The Light as a bigger threat, though not always because of the Shadow.
"as originally intended" -- heh heh, Mazrim Dem forever.
Agreed that Shaidar Haran should go. I remain convinced that until fairly late in the story development he was supposed to be Mori acting in disguise to keep the other Forses off balance. (I'm an old Compuserve forum super-poster, so I'm used to the old abbreviations.) I'm 100% sure they never even share screentime together until the final couple of books, and about 80% sure they don't even then. Plus the Superfade never worked well as being the Dark One's walking avatar; his personality just seemed too normally villainous. He even had a sense of humor unlike other Fades. (And again, pretending to be the DO's avatar is a clear Ishy trait.)
So either he should go, or he can stay with a surprise development that makes more sense to the Ishy character (and to most of SH's own operations.)
On dead Forses staying dead, well most of them do, of course. But I know what you mean. Some were selectively brought back because the story was running out of Forses faster than the story was progressing. Killing fewer in the first place would be better. Sammael in particular should have been off running his own plots after ACoS, not killed off-panel in a way absolutely screaming that he escaped and would be back. EVEN SANDERSON TEASES THAT SAM IS STILL ALIVE AND OPERATING! -- and that's in Book 13 if I recall! (Someone 'pretending' to be Sammael sent the Trolloc army against Rand and Company at the farmhouse, but then that turns out to just be Moridin messing with the other Forses by making them wonder if a rebel Chosen is running around. A concept which goes exactly nowhere.)
Liked your point about the forsaken. Definitely feel that they can be superb 'one-scene wonders'. But I do think that Demandred and Padan Fain play an important role in breaking up the possibility that the series be treated as a simplistic 'Good vs Evil' binary. Their characters and motivations can be explored to bring in renewed nuance. This might enable the series to turn up better than the books ( "Wishful thinking" as Daniel said in the video :p)
I see your point about the romances, but one of the things I love about the Rand/Elayne/Min/Aviendha thing is that it ISN'T a standard love triangle where someone gets picked as the "one true love" at the end. That's one of the relatively things about relationships in WoT that isn't a trope that's been rehashed 187 times in fantasy, I think it's worth keeping.
I'd hate to see Demandred combined with Taim, that would remove the one and only forsaken from this current time which seemed an important point. I wouldn't even mind another or two added as the originals are picked off.
yeah i'm sorry but love triangles are so overdone at this point that no. WoT doing a poly relationship would be something that catches viewers and be contraversial.
At 5:00, you're talking about zombies, I don't remember something like that in the books, what are you refering to?
look up Hindestap WOT on Google - he could also be referring to the dead spirits that begin popping up but don't do anything or affect anything
I’ve come back from the future to see how your predictions stand up.
Spoiler. The writers are F!!!!!ing things up
Interesting idea about cutting some of the Forsaken. Here's what I think:
Lanfear, Graendal, Moghidien, Moridin, and Demandred are fantastic villains and HAVE to be in it.
I'm pretty sure Asmodean has to be there and his role can't easily be absorbed by another Forsaken, so we'll keep him.
Semirhage, Aginor, and Mesaana play important parts but are less interesting as characters. Either keep them with limited screen time, or let another Forsaken take over their role.
Be'lal, Balthamel, Sammael, and Rhavin (if we're cutting Morgase plotline) really don't advance the plot in any way beyond just being an obstacle for our protagonist to destroy, and maybe that's enough of a reason to keep them so the interesting Forsaken aren't killed off before the end. IMO I think their roles should be given to Semirhage, Aginor, and Mesanna so we get good Forsaken fights as season finales without drastically changing the plotlines of the major Forsaken that have the most development.
FWLIW: My personal nickname for *_Game of Thrones_* is *_Dragons & Boobies._* Really.
And I refer to *_Facebook_* as *_Zuckerberg's Zoo._* ALSO really.
Yeah and... who cares?
@Jagar Tharn I was actually replying to RocKiteman_2001's comment
Also a ton of travelling and meaningless skirmishes and battles can be glossed over. The writers are gonna have to be excellent in the way they trim and pace the script to keep the casual viewers engaged. We will see
(Obviously spoilers for a 20 year old series.)
1.) Combine books 6-8, and 9-11 (just leaving out most of Book 10 anyway). Books 6-8 work as a political trilogy of Rand trying to be 'king' and yanking the nations into line (and 6-7 involve him winding up and throwing against Sammael in Illian, which turns into a bit of an anticlimax in the books anyway.) 9-11 focus, among other things, on Rand cleansing Saidin and recovering from that with the shifts this makes in the sides now that men don't have to go insane.
2.) The 2Riv crew mature a lot in three years (or 3-1/2) of the 14 books, so having them played by older actors later isn't bad. Might even be helpful if some actors want to quit and the parts recast. Still, as noted above, I'm okay with trimming books down for seasons. Book 1 introduces so much plot, and covers so much ground (figuratively and on the map) that I understand it being a whole season. Kind of ditto Book 14, although much of that can be action which takes less time to show than tell. Book 2.... eh, I can see that being a season. It's still introducing a lot of things. But yeah, it kind of makes sense for 2-3 to be one season: Rand accepts being the Dragon and tries to do something Dragony to end the war early (killing "Shaitan"). 4-5, Rand goes to the Waste and comes back ready to stake his claim as a political leader. Books 6-8, Rand tries being a king, but the taint driving him crazy causes too many problems and he has to give it up. Books 9-11, he cleans the taint (wonder if something better can be done with that, in the books it really makes little sense), and then recuperates while the world tries to get along without him. 12-13, Rand comes back and the Last Battle starts. (Strategically it starts in Book 12.) Book 14 maybe fr its own season.
So 7 seasons, maybe 6.
3.) Queen Morgase (Elayne's mom). She should stay long enough to set up Elayne's political situation, then die off. Agreed that her story is interesting but it doesn't affect the plot, other than giving the Ultrageneral Bryne some motivation not to retire and to fight for a side (which he'd have anyway with Elayne, plus just being generally a good guy). Losing Morgase tragically in Rand's raid on Caemlyn, when he thought he'd be able to save her, would add dramatic punch -- instead of only dramatic irony (since most people think she's dead anyway, but the reader knows better.)
4.) The Shaido might be more workable (after Dumai's Wells) if they got absorbed into the Seanchan's return. I do like having them around to sow chaos, I understand the point to that. Maybe just have them offscreen most of the time causing plot problems.
5.) While having MT be Demandred (after all) makes some sense, I understand the point to him competing with Rand thematically albeit less directly by becoming the anti-Dragon (so to speak) of the Sharans. Bringing them into the Last Battle adds a lot of punch, and makes the world a bigger place, too. But maybe it should be Sammael doing this, after easily escaping from the Mashadar at the end of ACoS. He was being set up as a wild-card threat, and even Sanderson teases the idea that Sam is still out there operating against the Forses in his own alternate-evil plan to impress the Dark One and earn the Nae'blis title.
6.) Most of the Forses only function as temporary hurdles anyway, operating behind the scene or only for a few scenes across a 'season', so I'm against reducing them. If anything, the Shadow should be promoting new Forses! (Which in the books only happens with Taim, if I recall correctly.) Bringing Forses back from the dead was something the Dark One didn't do in the prior War (or at any time since -- bringing back competent Dreadlords for example would have been a great idea). It should be rare if done at all. Maybe just don't kill off the more plot-important ones like Lanfear only to bring them back later in new bodies (apparently borrowed from other people anyway, like the poor Aes Sedai tortured to death by Semi -- seems like Cabriana got turned into Cyndane.)
7.) What should generally be cut (speaking as someone who plays with a project of condensing books 6-11 into two books, "Upon the Heights" and "The Shadow Falling"), are scenes that don't involve the main protagonists, the main antagonists, or plot-important secondary antagonists -- because they're the coloring contrast to the protagonists. Various characters can be cameos, but that's it.
8.) Speaking of secondary antagonists, I kind of agree with some people below that Padan Fain should be cut out fairly quickly. Even RJ didn't seem to know what to do with him. "Mordeth" shouldn't even exist after his power-base gets destroyed and that's in Book 9! After then he makes no unique contribution to the plot, so maybe just have him end there and let his "Shaisam" form contribute to more of an action scene at the end of the Winter's Heart portion. Or maybe sooner even, at Book 7's climax (with a powered-up return for the Book 9 climax). Or maybe even sooner than that. If "Mordeth" is going to stick around, he should be more important. I always enjoyed theorizing that he was Beidomon, one of the two drillers into the Bore which started the previous War of Power, who drops out of sight immediately and never factors into the story again.
Book 6 has to be it's own season or at least be at the end of a book 5 season. Dumai's Wells is too perfect of a season finale to have it take place in the first 3rd of a season.
What is your opinion on the use of the one power. My friend and I agree it would be a difficult medium to display on screen. I think a certain delicate CG threading around the screen in related colors would work. He thinks it should be more like the force in the Star Wars series, where it isn't visually on screen but you see the effects. What do you think.
Also,
Love your series
I think it could depend on whether the scene is "from the pov" of a channeler or not. Like when various characters are learning to channel or doing new or important weaves, there could be CGI similar to what you said, but in a lot of scenes, it's shown more like the force.
I feel like the channeling battles, with the shields, are going to have to have some effects, though, otherwise it's just people glaring at each other and making motions.
As a huge fan of Shannara, I’m warning you now. Keep your expectations low
A major disappointment.
Highdruid studios don’t care about the source material, they only care about reaching a wider audience, even at the expense of ostracizing their base core of fans. Who, by the way, are more likely to watch the show, buy the merch and spread the word, but since we are considered a minority then we don’t matter. I’ve seen it happen many times before, I fear wheel of time might end up being no different.
@@dylanhoyt1863 Harriet is one of the producers...
They are. Hopes are high, but expectations are very low.
Lol The Sword of Truth was worse. Legend of the Seeker wasn't a good show at all, let alone a good adaptation.
14 books. The sheer volume of cuts that are going to be necessary to adapt this into a television series makes me very nervous. I have loved The Wheel Of Time for over 20 years. All those characters in the series are like old dear friends to me and I worry for them. Changes are inevitable and I fear that my favorite characters like Mat and Thom and Moiraine will be altered to the point that they are unrecognizable to me. I'm so torn inside about the upcoming show to the point that I almost wish that they don't even try to make the attempt to adapt this for the small screen. My fear is that they'll screw everything up....
Cut all of book 10, the nadir of this series. Literally nothing happens.
Some important things happen, but it could easily be 2 episodes.
Asmodean is actually my favorite character in the entire series (I have a soft spot for "reluctant redemption" storylines and dark, handsome, brooding musicians), so seeing him cut would be really sad. But I agree that he doesn't bring a whole lot to the overall story, so I would completely understand if he were to be.
get Tom Waits to play him.
[MAJOR SPOILERS]:
I agree about forsaken count in the show, but keep 13 in the seal and the stories around them. I'd suggest just giving more of them a similar treatment as Demandred - keep them out until the last battle. I don't see why a couple wouldn't just be busy doing clerical work in the Blight until the last battle - we don't need to see them until they order the red veils to gather up the Dark banners. They could be making grey men, firing forges, etc off screen.
Ishmael, Demandred, Lanfear, and Asmodean can't be changed/combined, and don't need to be.
Aginor + Balthamel. tEotW really doesn't need 2 forsaken to show up, and having just one makes the others for the rest of the series way scarier individually. Aran'gar and Osan'gar don't show up until *way* after some other forsaken die, so that pair can show up iirc after Salidar just fine - just make one of them someone else, or have Ishmael kill one of the boring Blight bound types above..
Be'lal + Sammael - just don't balefire him at The Stone. I think there's room for good TV Fantasy politics of the Illian vs Tear rivalry where it turns out Brend and Samon were the same person as well.
Moghedian + Rahvin - Since we're dropping the Morgase story, the timeline can make perfect sense.
Semirhage + Mesaana - While it may sound insane plotwise, I think it'd give way more weight to the 13 black sister hunt if Egwene found evidence in her TGH captivity that more information transfer was occurring between some darkfriend Seanchan and some Black sisters. Much like the Samon/Brend combination. Additionally, this character and I believe both characters in the books don't do much during the Forerunners retreat to Seanchan. The real Semirhage really would have to take the whole boat ride to Seanchan before traveling back.
Graendal - To me, one of the scariest in the Last Battle, but under used during the series. I tend to think she's responsible for a lot of the unexplained dark friend behavior (Anyone who plausibly took orders in dreams).
You know, I think in the later books, there are whole marathon scenes of introspection that can be cut completely, especially since most of them are tediously redundant (and also, those don't translate well to the screen anyway.) That's something that Sanderson actually managed to get a handle on for the most part, but Jordan really went off the rails there. There is also a *lot* of stuff that goes on in the later books that probably doesn't need a huge amount of screen time to cover since it will lend itself well to epic visuals that only take a few minutes or, for much of it, montage. Indeed, I can see an Indiana Jones style travelling montage for many fairly long winded sequences in the books. I mean, sure, the weevils in the grain and other travails of an army on the move are nice set dressing and all, but they didn't add much to the overall story.
Also, some of the characters that got promoted to "semi-main" later on can probably be dispensed with entirely or other characters can possibly stand in for them if the specific scenes are required. Much of the time they are simply point of view characters we are familiar with so they give us a window into the events they get mixed up in. That isn't really necessary in a visual medium since we don't need a filter to observe things - we can see them directly. That was actually one of the things that bogged down the books a lot - too many characters got promoted to "semi-main".
I do agree that the drama within and between the towers is critical since without it, the overall climax of the story couldn't happen. That said, some of the tedious detail can be skipped. Also, some of the "secular" political machinations are probably important, but there's no need to get bogged down in the details of city administration and the like other than maybe some background action mentioning it or a few lines of dialogue here or there.
The eye of the world is just sooo slow. Could fit that whole book into 4 episodes max. If it's any longer, they will lose too many viewers. I definitely don't want to watch a whole season of them just running.
Yes, there is lots of running and the road to Caemlyn takes forever.....but.....character development is a must. not just world building, but seeing the characters grow and interact with each other....it's essential.
I can relly see book 1-7 having its own season each, there are just so many important and interresting stuff in each one, except if they decide to cut too much material. Book 8-9-10 even 11 if they want to narrow it down can be all combined in one season. 12,13,14 can be combined in 2 seasons. Its honestly very hard for me to see less than 10 seasons without severe cuts to the whole story.