The BAD Of The Wheel Of Time!😞
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มี.ค. 2020
- Am I a biased Wheel Of Time fan? Yes, yes I am. Do I recognize the series flaws? Hesistantly, yes.
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I do plan a spoiler filled follow up to this video in the future!
Im waiting for the comments from fellow WoT fans who are furious I acknowledge that it isn’t perfect 😂
I dont even care this just got spoiled just happy it happens
How dare you!
it is blasphemy, but I get it. Parts of the books can be sloggish. I would argue the Rand chapters are NEEDED, that's about it.
It takes a very special kind of person to see the flaws in something they love, I think you did it justice.
I think I love you more because you aren’t blinded by bias.
Well said Daniel, thorough and concise
I actually hope that they don't write the Aiel to be too invincible as Jordan seems to describe them, at least 5 books in. I think Herbert had that problem with the Sardukar in the Dune series.
When you get mentioned on a Daniel Greene video it feels like you've hit the big time. Thanks for watching the review, my man.
Keep up the good work. Really enjoying your content :)
@@manandhar8064 Thank you! It has been a fun ride so far and the fandom has helped make it that way.
Seriously enjoying watching your reviews! I'm on my 3rd reread now because of the show.
@@christinemusson9101 Thank you so much. I'm so pleased I can help folks relive that first run through the series. I'm quite sad I'm on the last Jordan book now.
@@mikesbookreviews oh to read A Memory of Light for the first time again! Enjoy every word!
MAN1: Oh boy here I go being stoic and braverly! Huzzah! Throwing myself in the face of danger with little care!
WOMAN1: *frowns, smooths skirts, tugs braids, sniffes,* Oh golly, you men and your brashness! If you throw yourself in the face of danger with little care again, I'll box your ears!
WOMAN2: *sighs*, Oh!, but that man sure is handsome! Despite my usual serious demeanour and character type, I will become flustered and behave like a 14 year old asking her crush out. Because of my emotional state, I will act unpredictably and say things that contain meaning that any functioning human can parse, but not the MALE, because he is so wool-headed! Men!
EVERY MAN IN FRAME: ...does eye-contact with every other man, before looking at the reader, raising their arms beside their heads and collectively saying "Women, am I right?". They promptly do something dumb and get hurt.
That's it. That's the entire book series.
@@Fantozz2 He nailed it
This comment is seriously underrated.
I came here to write something like this. I finished the series but it was a struggle mostly because of stuff like this and i'm bugged Daniel didn't mention it. To me the book series was so drowned in this crap that i couldn't see the forest from the trees. I finished WoT about 3 years ago and to me it was a decent series but not a favorite because i couldn't enjoy the more complex aspects or worldbuilding and character development because of all the junk. Watching some of Daniel's videos about why WoT is great opened my eyes, but because of my personal reading experience, I wouldn't read it again because of this writing style.
So accurate.
If I have to read about Nynaeve tugging her braid ONE more time I swear...
He said while tugging at his braid....;)
Maybe it'll get cut off at some point ;)
I'll box my own ears in!
I feel for her actress. Haha
What's the over/ under on number of braid pulls we see in season 1?
"You can skim the slog"
*Listens to audiobooks at 3.50x speed*
*skips elayne chapters*
I was gonna say "...But what about Audiobook listeners?
@@BL4RG4N we fall asleep and miss anything anyway! LOL
*skips Nynaeve chapters*
Honestly, I've started listening to the audio books at 1.45 speed. It takes a while to work up to that until it feels normal, but it makes the entire series flow very well. Even the "slog" feels much more natural.
"The wizard enchanted the Flint lock pistol to shoot the frog into the halflings head..." You know fantasy combat... - Daniel Green, 2020
I did laugh out loud.
Alex D
To be fair the pistol did originally shoot bullets, but due to a odd enchantment of a hag it was only capable of shooting bullet frogs, so all the wizard did was transmute all the lead into tiny bullet frogs.
its like Mr Burns bee-shooting dogs
I always dread when characters enter a room, because it means an entire page of describing every detail in the room with maybe one sentence of dialogue.
LOL I don't know why, but this comment killed me!
Pretty much more only major complaint with the series. So much description that could've instead been plot progression.
Indeed. Different genre but the level of description with environmental details that are irrelevant rivals that of Agatha Christie. And that's saying something ...
Hot tip, if this annoys you, do not read Lord of the Rings. Tolkein has to be one of the most detailed decriptive writers in the genre. That's how Jackson was able to reproduce exactly what we all saw in our mind.
@@coronary00 Sure but that’s a single book, not 14 books of repetitive descriptions.
the sword forms part of WOT is actually one of my favorite forms of writing combat because it lets me imagine it so much more colorfully
Right?! That fight at the end of book 2, that’s like, top 5 moments in the whole series for me.
Exactly! Love the swordplay description in WOT
It´s all fun and games until someone lays out that "Badger on slippery mushroom" move...
‘Moon rises over the lake as the apple blossoms on the breeze as the boar charges down the mountain and the heron wades through rushes and then the cat kicks sand’ is probably the most succinctly apt description of swordplay… ever.
I've been spoiled by Stormlight Archive, I was consistently bored of battles/fights and this was a part of it.
In today's world, the slog isn't so bad. It's three books in the middle of a series where some amazing things do happen.
But back when the books were still being written, it was torture. It took about 10 years of my life to get from from Fires of Heaven to Knife of Dreams. That. Was. Painful. We had no idea if the series would return to form, or if the slog was the new reality.
Yeah, this is the key. Same with the point about repetition. When these books were coming out 1 every couple years, the slog was real, and the repetition was a necessary recap.
@@leave-trace I came here to say exactly that. I can forgive a book series that may have some repetition/recap if much of it was written before social media and Book tube were even around.
Agree! That was my experience and I think reading a completed series or taking a break for long enough for the series to end would have made a world of difference. Having to wait YEARS with so little to chew on other than people moping around in their home was a turn off.
@@leave-trace For the repetition, I have to challenge you a bit. Because even within a single book he will repeat a lot, like explanations of the magic system.
@JustDev WHAT. Season two of 'The Wire' was absolute gold.
My biggest issue I've had with the books so far is how many of the female characters become insufferable.
It doesn't get mentioned enough but it's true. At least twice in the series a female character comments on 'house-breacking' a male character. Like a dog.
This is my issue as well. He wrote it so that many of the female characters are arrogant, hypocritical, and refuse to believe any new information that they did not discover themselves, and it made it frustrating to read through their sections. I'm currently on book 12, and Rand has similar issues with his character, but there are so many big events surrounding him that it's easier to look past. Many of the chapters centering on the female characters seem to have far more politicking than huge events, and that makes it far more aggravating when the character you're following is spending a bunch of time thinking about how foolish other people are, and how they know best, while making stupid mistakes. Elayne, Nyneave, and Egwene all get into trouble at points because they believe that they're smarter, and their strength with the one power means they don't have to be cautious or have anyone to watch their backs.
Even with Cadsuane, I like most of her character, but hate that she believes everyone else's manners to be of utmost importance while behaving with few manners herself.
OMG yes. This was the probably the biggest reason I couldn’t finish the series past halfway through book 4. Besides Moraine and a few others, almost every woman in WOT was a obnoxious, snippy jerkass. Say what you will about Wizard’s First Rule, but at least Kahlan Amnell was an actually sensible and reasonable woman. WOT could have used more female characters like her.
Here's looking at you, Faile Bashere t'Aybara.
And that's how the male character come off for female readers, nine times out of ten. An essentially perfect balance.
Elayne with Rand is friggin Dug from Up. “I have only just met you. And I LOVE you!”
Honestly, I felt Elayne and Avidena would have made a better couple. They had better chemistry with each other than they ever did with rand.
@@theNuclearMagician That is what I predict the show will do, keep Min with Rand since she is far more influential to Rand than the other two, and make Aviendha and Elayne a couple.
No thanks I dont want sister incest in the show
I guess you don't remember your first childhood infatuation......
Well he's Ta'veren and remember "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills"
There are MANY times in WoT when characters who are old friends and trust each other cross paths again and fail to share critical things they have learned.... Things that would have been remarkably helpful to the rest of "the party" in gamer speak. I think nearly every character developed an unhealthy avoidance of asking for help and being team players.
For no reason at all ! From the first book!before they have reasons to avoid each other.
Yup.. ya meet a creepyly beautiful random lady wearing all white and just never tell anyone about her... Cuz wHo wOuLd cArE?
THISSSS!!!!!
I find it funny how the girls and rand both hid a forsaken to interrogate whilst hiding them from the others
@@Ebrahim_17 She probably used light compulsion.
The biggest thing that's bothered me has been the romances. "We've been a room together 1ce and we're in love from a slight glance at each other....years later I can't forget him..."
I'm on book 5 now, but this has been rough. The Rand/Elayne romance is probably my least favorite because they barely know each other. That being said, I like how he broke off Rand/Egwene in a way that feels real when you're developing from a teenager to an adult and those feelings just don't exist anymore--people grow apart but still care about each other. Great video. Thanks for prepping me for the slog!
But at the same time the way Egwene and Elaine planned the "breakup" to manipulate him and make him go to Elaine and how easily he just switched to some one else in that scene. It made my blood boil. Like let the feelings develop..let him get over the other relation first. does Robert Jordan know what a non abusif relationship is ?
Yea, some of the relationships have some major issues. Most are like quirks. But Rand/Elayne is one where it gets weird. Flip, Rand's harem is just weird and makes me want to burn him.
I’m also on book 5 now and I have a bigger problem with Rand/Min (for the same reason - they’ve interacted even less than Rand and Elayne) and Rand/Aviendha (for a different reason). They make no sense to me.
To be fair, a LOT of real life romances ARE like that. They don't tend to last, because the foundations are so weak, but I have personally witnessed more of that type of romance/relationship than ones based on more "meaningful and solid" foundations.
The worst romance of all is Egwene and Galad. I just do not understand an intelligent and capable woman like Egwene falling so hard for... Galad lol.
Daniel is such a die hard fan of the WoT that even when he's talking about its flaws he makes me want to get into the series again.
The problem I had with this video is he spends more time contradicting the bad points, which he said he wasn't going to do, than actually covering the bad points.
I've recently discovered this channel and most of the content is great but I think I'm going to avoid any more of his Wheel of Time videos as he's a bit too in love with the series to turn a proper critical eye on it.
Sorry for my broken english
what a lovely point :)
Very touching. I'm happy you got to share that experience with her.
For me, I just tried to paint his pictures and accept the characters for who they were. I love the series and I'm so glad it was finished. EPIC
What a wonderful point from a wise and lovely woman. That story of your grandmother made my day. Your own wisdom, of sharing this, and the warm soul you have now is a testament of your love for ypur grandmother. Thank you
😭
🖤
Egwene and Gawyn together just baffles me. I feel like I can count on one hand how many times they have even hung out together and I'm halfway thru The Gathering Storm
Anyone remember “the man who calls himself Bors” I mean it’s only mentioned like 15 times in the prologue.
Yes, and the reveal of who he actually was BLEW MY MIND!
I love the way Michael Kramer says Bors lol
To be fair to the man who called himself Bors, he only called himself Bors in that place.
im gonna be honest i dont remember that at all and i JUST finished the series two days ago
@@runningcommentary2125 Until one of the black sisters calls him that...
Terry Goodkind disliked this video for daring to say there is no book, or series, that is perfection exemplified.
I just started playing pandemic and I cant stop laughing every time the news scroll proclaims him as the greatest author.
@@lill1418, while I did enjoy the Sword of Truth series when it was coming out, once I finished the last book, I felt complete on it and have had zero desire to go back and read it again. It's not that I found the ending bad, in fact it fit in quite well with the entire series, it was just that I felt that it had completed that journey with no need for a reread. Now pardon me as I choose whether to complete my 3rd read through of Safehold, my 4th (or is it 5th?) read through of Honor Harrington or my 8th read through of the Belgariad.
Lill
I think you mean Terry Pratchett.
@@Charistoph Amen, I felt the same way. Loved Zedd who was a little mawkish, but a great character.
@@gingerginger999, I will admit, Zeddicus Z'ul Zorander is a character I would have no problem reading more of, or again. It was just Richard enduring pain after pain and pulling the answers almost from nowhere which made it less endearing.
My wife, who made it to Book 6, had this mini-rant about the series: "Travel to a place to fight something evil, tug that braid, drink some tea. Rinse, repeat." While I'm more willing than her to overlook some of the repetition in The Wheel of Time, it did feel like a project in need of an editor willing to curb Jordan's bad habits. Harriet McDougal is a fine editor, I'm sure, but I still think it is a bad idea for a professional writer, especially one working on a multi-volume epic, to be married to their editor, the conflicts of interest are just too hard to avoid...
Honestly i'm not sure what her problem was with that, I found it hilarious. Especially when she was in the travelling circus with Birgitte, was dying of laughter
@@hihosh1 I wasnt impressed with the circus scenes. the first time thru I thought that they were out of place.. in subsequent read throughs I hated the circus scenes.. after reading through this last time , im only slightly annoyed with the circus.. funny how opinions can change as we age
The trouble with the repetition is that all 15 books are out now. A year or two between books, some repetition is good. Yes, he does go overboard, not saying that... but, for those that read quickly, who cares, we can scan for new information and continue on.
I do agree on the conflict of interest point. perhaps some things would have been better polished if a different editor had looked at it... but then again, perhaps Jordan would have stopped writing if someone pushed him in a direction he wasn't willing to go... too hard to say.
I'm very glad for the series. It got me reading and passing english classes in school. And those repetitive areas taught me how to "skim" read (which I hate that term, as its not accurate); read really quickly but still retain/pickup new information.
@@marcusone1 I never re-read without a time-out to read something else. Generally something not even under the umbrella of speculative fiction.
I've had a similar thought. I have a minor headcannon where I picture our boi RJ talking to wifey.
RJ: "Hey, I had an idea for the next book! You know how much everyone *loved* the circus?"
HM: "...Yes, of course dear."
RJ: (excitedly) "I thought that it might be fun to go *back* there!! Give the audience what they want!!"
HM: "................I'm sure they'll love it, dear"
Not sure if anyone will see this since I'm a year late to the party, but one of my biggest pet peeves with Jordan's writing is that there are apparently only two physical characteristics that matter when describing characters: men's height (or how their height compares to that of another character) and how low a woman's neckline is.
So true!
Don't forget noses! Jordan loves pointing out how bird like everyone's noses are!
i can't count the number of times i was listening to the audiobook in my car with my windows down and stopped at a light JUST at the part where they're describing a woman's bosom for two paragraphs LMAO
The books are for adults. Act like an adult and get over it.
So, it balances out for both of them.
‘Cat Crosses the Courtyard’ is the best.
I thought that was a way of walking, not a sword form. Unless that’s what you were talking about, then carry on.
@@fredtrunce5931 yeah I think so too and even then it's the best :)
@@fredtrunce5931 More like a ready stance than an attack form, but definitely not just a way to walk around.
men are X, women are Y, every. single. page.
@Matthew Crossed his arms beneath his breast.
I just think with the hairs on my chest
*tugs braid*
@Wil E lol I was just thinking that this morning after I posted. How ironic.
And yet they are exactly the same.
My biggest issue is how poorly the characters treat each other, and maliciously hide helpful information from each other. It'll probably take a book a year to finish the series because it's very difficult to read about people with very little character growth in several fat books.
Yeah there is a distinct lack of camaraderie from the main characters. The relationships seem socially stunted at times. Another issue is that the majority of the main protagonists are irrationally stubborn. For me personally, I found that many of the characters I was presumably supposed to be rooting for, were very hard to like.
Agreed. I’m on Fires of Heaven and I like it a lot, but I’m really sad with how badly Mat treats Rand. Especially since in both book one and two Rand stuck by Mat so loyally and looked out for him. In the Great Hunt Mat was Rand’s main concern and he was willing to risk his life for him. When I’m in Mat’s point of view though...the complete lack of absolutely any kind of concern for Rand is disconcerting. He literally doesn’t even seem to care that his childhood friend is doomed to go insane. Even if he is scared of Aes Sedai, I expected at least a little grief from him, that he is going to lose his friend. I’m also quite tired of hearing he just wants to get away from Rand, and him blaming Rand for everything even though he’s also Taveren. It gets very repetitive. Also, the bickering between Nynaeve and Elayne was very trying. The interactions between these characters makes me go “are you guys even friends?” Lol. Which is a little disappointing since fictional friendships are some of my favorite things to read.
@@nvwest I see where you´re getting at, to me they felt more like siblings than friends but considering how they grew up together, it kinda made sense to me and considering they overall just avoid talking about personal topics that are in essence taboo, I'd say they are pretty close and trust each other, it's just the huge changes in their lives that eventually make them not seem friends at all
@@janhavi1977 Elaine And nynaeve werent friends ať the begining. They became friends throughout the série when they travel together And when they have to get used to different power structure
This, 100%. Middle to later in the series it seems like none of the main characters are ever on the same page, like it's literally impossible for them to understand each other. So frustrating!
Similar to the criticism regarding romance ("Boom, now they're in love!") I felt a similar way concerning conflict among the characters.
Characters would fight, bicker, and spite one another for essentially no reason; the conflict -- like the romance -- would just appear because Jordan needed it to. In later books I was often disheartened to see previously close characters fight with one another without justification.
Oh, and Nynaeve tugging her braid and boxing male character's ears 238 times a page. That wears thin pretty quickly.
Ah, seems like you were raised in a healthy enviorment. In my experience this is exactly how a lot of people I was raised around are. Like to the point of stabbing.
and I would have to say, "Boom, now they're in love," is actually a pretty common occurrence in the real world as well.
@@erickalfaro8389 my biggest annoyance is nynaeve being angry and rude for no reason shes acting like a karen whose glorified.but i am on ch 7 of the first book does she get better in later books?
@@winxclubflora8446 yeah, honestly they all mature and grow up. It worth to push past the slow books. I promise.
And that's on book like 8-10 imo. The rest are amazing.
"Smoothed her skirts/tugged her braid"
By the time I got to the end I wanted to vomit every time I read either of these lazy attempts at characterization. Every female character does this shit.
One thing that bugs me is all the similar names! Elaine, Egwene, Elaida, Aviendha... I know this is a slight inevitability of epic fantasies with 2200+ characters, but more could have been done to distinguish names.
Also yeh, a lot of the romances seem to just sort of... happen.
The worst for me is when similar named characters are in the same area since I'm listening to the audiobooks.
Perrin = Verin
Mishima = Masema
They dont even sound the same
How do elayne and aviendha are alike?Egwene and elayne are alike because they start by E?You should have used better name for your argument
Black Ajah hunt with Seine or Siene, wtf was that about... also no one has same name as another? Seriously you have a world where no one named an heir or used anothers name but one person and that was because they were actually the historical figure they pretended to be!
@@derickkaz6096 elayne and egwene rhyme. It says so in the glossary
@@jordanb220 Damani Domani
yea i agree 100%
Female character: Men! I’m gonna wash his ears and box them in at the same time!
Exactly, it's really annoying.
Yeah, that's the attitude of all the female characters, but especially Nynaeve more than anyone. She seems utterly incapable of finishing a sentence without generalizing men. I don't hate her as much as some, but I certainly don't love her as much as some either. I actually found her quite amusing and entertaining for a bit. But I'm on book 5 and her temper and constant insulting of men is starting to get a bit old. It was funny at first but now I'm finding the humor to be a bit stale, and it's super irritating.
Yeah this part of the book really takes away from the distinction of some female characters. I am guessing the aes sedai as a majority are supposed to be viewed as arrogant. (On lord of chaos rn). Im listening to the audio book and the majority of female sort of just sound the same character with a different name. Or they just sound angry like nynaeve.
I feel like it may be tough to have so many characters and make them all unique. But it seems that there are only a few personality types swathed across a lot of characters
@@BasilNUmeh Also it's spot on.....
While I do like the series so far (Im about half way through), it definitely has a couple of issues:
- a bunch of characters being condescending assholes to basically everyone
- falling in love just because of, you know... reasons
- characters being like - noooo, lets not try to understand one another, lets just stay in our own little bubble, with our noses high in the air (especially bothersome in romances)
- this isn’t as striking but it is kind of hard to keep up with everything thats going on politically and character wise
Those were just off the top of my head. That being said, there are some GREAT things about this series I cannot get enough of.
I'm on chapter 27 of The Gathering Storm and I found Sanderson to be a breath fresh air. I found myself being very interested in certain POV chapters that I had begun to get a little bored with from around book 7--10ish
I listened The Wheel Of Time in audiobook, the whole thing at once (all fifteen books in single speed) my biggest problem with the serie was the repetitions.
Well don't tug your braid over it
"HER TARABONNER ACCENT WAS ESPECIALLY STRONG AS SHE SAID THIS"
I found that the audiobooks made the slog always go away so that was an added bonus.
I love it on rereads. I can zone out a bit and not miss as much :)
'Tugs braid'
No one:
No one at all:
Robert Jordan: [whispering] Now kiss.
??
!!
%%
I dont Get it
@@lavranstvinnereim7921 Google the now kiss meme.
Minor spoilers alert:
The slog: Perrin looks for Faile and says her name 10,000 times in 400 pages. Faile tries to get a Rod, and the Shaido do the Aiel version of politics. Elayne is a bit of a dumbass, Egwene blames Rand for everything, and Mat is always awesome. The Seanchan are there doing stuff. Rand does somethings awesomely but in the last bit of the slog, gets a little boring. The slog ends in the awesomeness that is Knife of Dreams and the last 4 books (while there are a few problems here and there) are amazing.
The "perrin looking for faile" section is the worst part by far, imo. It just feels like progress isnt being made. I cared a lot more about what was happening to faile than about perrin's attempts to find her. I feel like the could've sidelined perrin for a few books, kinda like they do with one character in the third book (you know who i'm talking about)
@@Danmeilover69 Are you talking about when Mat was trying to be nice to Berelain by bowing to her? He was explaining that if he had pinched her or somehow insulted her then her rudeness would be warranted. But he bowed to her and she was downright rude about it.
@@cdubbau135 Oh! Okay that makes way more sense! I must have been really out of it when I read that scene. I went back and looked at it again. What was I thinking? I am really sorry for being a moron.
@@Danmeilover69 You weren't being a moron. There are always times, especially in books like these where the author's words tend to bleed together if you read them long enough. And I understand. It took me a bit to warm up to Mat, but give it time. He really is awesome.
@@cdubbau135 I know. But I still feel really dumb for doing that and I could have hurt someone's feelings by insulting their favorite character without having took the time to think first.
I only made it part way through book two before I stopped, a coworker I found out had also been reading it told me he lost interest after book 3 and that he had some friend who told him they thought it only got worse with book 4 which is when their friend stopped. I keep planning to get back into it, but right now I'm discovering the storm light archives and the quality of the characters feels like night and day between the two series (again based on not even quite a book and a half of WoT). Like, people actually seem to build real human relationships and bond, rather then everyone being weird lone wolf type characters who endure the existence of the other characters only because they must. And don't even get me started on how unpleasant the female characters have been in the WoT so far.
It's a little concerning to hear that these first few books are part of the "good" stuff, and there are multiple books still ahead of me in the series that even super fans acknowledge as "the slog". I actually own the entire book series (I believe i bought them years ago after watching one of Mr. Greene's videos where he indicated it was a must read series and the best of all time) so I may give this series another chance simply because I've already invested a decent chunk of money into it, but I don't know, I feel like having enjoyable characters is too important to me, and so far the characters just haven't been enjoyable.
Sunk cost fallacy: practical definition
I first started reading the books in high school (introduced by my dad), so I think the "weird lone wolf type characters" were really what I related to. In fact, I might go so far as to say that Wheel of Time got me through high school because it helped me to push through so much that was nearly unbearable for me (with Rand as my role model really). It just gave me exactly what I needed to survive when no one understood me and I felt totally disconnected from everyone around me. I read all the available books (up through Knife of Dreams) six times over just during high school. Anyway, perhaps understanding how I came to adore the series will help you find a way to read it. Every time I come back to the series, it's like reminiscing with old friends. Deeply flawed friends, sure, but friends that grow into the people that you are proud to know in the end.
@@iamqtpie2825 Thank you for sharing! Honestly I think for me the biggest frustration was just how many of the conflicts seemed to be caused by the fact that all the characters seem to hate and distrust each other for no clear (to me anyway) reason. Like, they're all alone, in a far away land, and these handful of friends they knew from growing up are all they have left of their home land, literally the only people they should be able to have any confidence in or trust in, and instead of trusting and growing closer to them, they push them all away and assume the absolute worst about them at every possible moment, usually for the sake of causing unnecessary conflict in the story. One of my least favorite story tropes is the Easily Avoidable Misunderstanding, where a conflict is caused between two people not because one side is actually opposed to the other, but because of a contrived misunderstanding between one or both of the characters, and through the first book and a half, this series was chock full of those.
For just one example from the beginning of book 2: Instead of telling his friends how he's feeling and what his plans are, Rand treats them like a jerk so they won't follow him when he plans to leave. That, whether he realizes it or not, makes him an actual jerk, and also a fool since if either of them are actually good friends that will just make them want to follow him more to see that he's okay since he's acting so out of character, all of which makes me uninterested in seeing Rand succeed because he's an unlikable jerk for no reason to the people who should matter most to him, but later he comes clean to them that it was all and act and why he did it, so at least we can get by this terrible piece of writing... except, no, despite knowing him their entire life to not act in that manner, because he acted like that in a single conversation with them, and despite the fact he has just explained why he did so, neither of his friends believe him and both continue to assume that he really meant what he said... so now I hate both of these characters as well because what kind of human garbage would treat another person, let alone their friend, like that, let alone knowing the situation he's in.
And it was like that over and over with all of the characters, they all treated each other like untrustworthy garbage for no clear reason, abandoning a literal life time of friendship at the drop of the hat in response to even the most minute perceived slight.
In higshchool I was a loner too, I had no friends, spent every lunch sitting/eating alone on the ground in the 120 degree phoenix arizona sun because none of the other kids would let me eat at their lunch tables under the shade providing over hangs. 4 years of that did a number on me. But it wasn't because I didn't trust anyone, it was because I was shy and had moved there from out of town so couldn't break into the already established child hood friend groups of all of my classes. Shy characters, that I can relate to, being forced to be alone for reasons outside your control, that I can relate to, characters who distrust others, even their friends, because they've been consistently betrayed by those close to them, even that I can understand though not directly relate to, but characters who mistreat and distrust their friends for no reason, that just does not compute for me, and isn't enjoyable to read for me either.
None of that takes anything away from your own experience though, and if these characters were a friend to you during your own rough times, I'm all the more glad these books and this series exists. Just because a book doesn't resonate with me, doesn't mean it can't still be valuable, can't resonate with others.
I read 6 books in high school and then gave up. The plot really stops developing after book 3 and then it's just the same plot every book with slight variations, a villain of the week kind of thing. I didn't even get to a slog
The repetitiveness isn't just in the slog, just fair warning.
The Slog is mostly going from huge world trekking adventures to spending an entire book in a single city and 3 books of Perrin's Side Quest.
@@aozgolo It would have been funny if after all that Perrin went through if Faile got a knife in the back and died just as he got her back. That hole part of the books was so hard to get through
Something something Empress, might she live forever.Something something Empress, might she live forever.
Something something Empress, might she live forever. Something something Empress, might she live forever.”mIgHt ShE lIvE fOrEvEr”🙃
I enjoyed Perrin, Matt, Egwene and Nyvene's journeys. The one I had the hardest time with was Rand. Especially in the later books. Just found him annoying. I sort of chalked it up to "he's going a bit mad and he's a farm boy who is having to become a king" but still. Rand is my slog.
I’m on book 4 now and I can confirm. Mat’s become awesome.
yes he is
Book 5 and yes
yeah mat becomes so awesome by the middle of the series... and brandon butchered him so brutally, that was definitely the biggest weakness of the Brandon ones was how bad he butchered and didn't do justice to Mat.. if there had to be a character that Brandon just couldn't figure out, I wish it would have been basically ANYONE other than Mat (or Rand)
Enai De A Lukal I like Brandon’s matt, idk why I just did. Anyways Jordan’s matt was better
I'm at book 3 and I'm so looking forward to that
Knife of dreams was so great because Robert Jordan was literally fighting for his life, trying to finish this great work of his life while he still lived. You can feel his pain and anguish in the work. Rand was the outlet for the struggle he himself was facing. It is so beautiful and tragic. You can't help but be drawn into it.
I disagree with that because he largely wrote that book in 2004 and released it in 2005. He wasn't even diagnosed he had cancer until 2006 to which he died from in 2007
@@Existomalus he had cardiac amyloidosis, he suffered with it for years. He knew he was dying.
I actually got to a point where I'd want to scream every time he described Cairhien architecture and fashion. Skimming got me through a LOT of these books. No just the slog. If GRRM mentions food, skip a page. If Jordan mentions clothes, skip 2.
"People who slowly read books don't mind repetition"
Well, that's me
Me too. I wasn't aware there was a 'slog'. And since I've reread the series many times I guess I really don't mind repetition.
I don't read fast and I hate repetition. I makes the story even slower
We should just start using "the slog" to refer to the middle boring part of everything. Like every Wednesday, or working on a project and your in the middle where you feel like you aren't making any progress and it'l never end.
that... kind of is what the word means already. Did you think WoT fans coined the term "slog"?
@@jonstein4606 right. But its not commonly used. I meant it should be brought back into every day use
i like wednesday :(
The Changing of the Authors bit fascinated me, since I've never really experienced that in reading before (Tolkien notwithstanding, of course, but he finished his main series, it was the supplementary series that he passed away before completing). I haven't read any of the books yet, so I'm just browsing the pitches to the series.
I am glad to hear that Jordan gives one last hurrah after this Slog, something as a goodbye to his fans.
It's beautiful.
Consider me sold.
My two biggest criticisms of WoT:
1. Too many adjectives, not enough verbs.
2. You can't spell Faile without Fail. I just wanted her story arc to end in her death about midway through.
I sort of half expected him to get with berelain until FAILE came back and I realized that multi book whole jealousy arc was just to waste my time👎
"Flintlock pistol was blessed by the wizard to shoot the frog into the halflings hea..."
I'd read.
Now I’m utterly confused one of the biggest gripes I used to have with the wheel of time was it was something you couldn’t put down and come back to later because Jordan didn’t repeat himself are. You’d have characters that showed up three books prior For a short amount of time come up three books later as a main character without reminding you who they are
Its a bizarre paradox but both are kinda right. Unimportant stuff that is kinda self-evident or you could get from context? He repeats that information endlessly. But like you said, character that hasn't been in it for several books? Bitch, how dare you not remember who they are. They rode a horse that one time, remember?
With A Song of Ice and Fire it is so easy to tell who is who and where you are at all times. With Wheel of Time so often I have to be like “Who is that?” And “Where are we?” that eventually I just stop caring.
When you were a 14 year old kid in the 90s waiting for the next book to come out, you didnt care. All you wanted to do was escape into this world. Jordan is not trying to be Hemingway, he's trying to immerse you into a world. Like he said, it's flawed but still awesome
Exactly this. The slog for me was waiting years for the next book then being depressed 3 days later when you realise you have years more to wait for the next book.
Yeah when you were a child I bet it slapped. A baby child could only enjoy this writing you big incel baby
Re: the repetition. I think you make a great point, Daniel. If you’re “binge reading”, for lack of a better term, the entire series, it probably seems grating. But for those of us who were reading it as the books came out, it helped keep details straight (a lot of this was in pre-internet days. No huge character glossaries online. I kept a journal through the years with all the prophecies written down.) I mean, I would re-read the whole series every couple of years anyway, but it still helped. Bug under some circumstances, feature under others. Thanks for the video!
I feel the same, the books came out every couple of years and sometimes you need a a little reminder of details. Just skip the paragraph if it bothers. Also the editors will actually want a little repetition in case a reader is picking it up to read out of order.
I agree. The repetition was a little grating back when I was reading as the books were being released, but it was generally not the biggest issue I had with the series. Nowadays, as I'm in the middle of my reread, the repetition is much, much worse and I end up skimming over much of it.
Do you recommend not to binge read the series? I'm asking because I just started with the first book and I'm super bored.
Srikkanth G well, all the books are out. It is complete, so at the end of the day, reading pace will solely be dictated by your level of enthusiasm. All the books have parts which are slow, and all have parts that move at speed and they have multiple prophecies which hint at future development. Part of the joy for me was keeping track of all those prophecies and all the theories and seeing them each get ticked off the list in wonderful ways. But we each have our own tastes. I’d recommend reading the first 2 books. If you’re not hooked by then, then reconsider. Book 2 is awesome, Book 3 is slow, book 4-7 are awesome, 8-10 are the slog, 11-14 are the glorious, long awaited ending. And, like Daniel says, only read New Spring after book 5
@@eloyc4245 Wonderful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm finishing up the first book and it's only towards the end that my interest is peaking.
I'm not a prophecy or theory person. I just read and let the narration take its way. May be that's how I read as I'm new into the Epic Fiction Genre.
I love Jordan's sword forms. They are so lyrical and I love to be able to imagine them myself.
it was such a clever way of writing fights- the sword form names are so descriptive that they take the place of most of the play-by-play details about what the combatants are doing
@anonymous opinions Well no kidding, if you like reading traditional fantasy action sequences, a deliberately novel/alternative approach is not going to be satisfying.
My dislike of the sword forms stems from my overexposure to martial arts books, movies and magazines in the 90's. At first, some of the moves were descriptive names, like "Tiger Claw." As the martial arts craze went on, the names became more flowery and ridiculous, like "Swan Whispers in the Night Over Dancing Pebbles in the Rain." This instilled a real dislike of that sort of thing, and makes it sound pretentious.
@anonymous opinions Yep they’re completely corny and idiotic
My main problem with the series was every female character being the exact same character and having the exact same lines every time they are the focus
Brainlet
Tuon = Moraine = Nyneave = Morgase = Aviendha. They all say the same things, think the same way, and are not critically different in story or temperament, ability, or language. Got it.
PS: Yes, I did go out of my way to think of characters who were fundamentally different in at least a couple of ways to all the characters I added to my list, and who spoke different than the other ones. While that might be a hack here, it also didn't take me more than 30 seconds to think of them, and there are probably so many more, as lots of varieties of women still do exist here. Tons.
No, there are 2 female characters, come on. There is Moraine and there is Nynaeve, and every other female is some kind of copy of one of those two!
@@dedf15 So Tuon is either a copy of Nyneave or a copy of Moraine? Hmmm. Somehow, I think that old hag Elaida is going to be breaming in praise, being at least as good as one of them. Not even the worst personality traits of Nyneave brought out in the early books are even touching much similarities on that, without serious lifting in mental gymnastics. And even those two buffoonery leaders aren't related to each other. And this gets even more strange when we talk about both good and bad minor characters that are female, and I can name quite a ton.
Trying to pretend they are carbon copy pastes of Moraine and or Nyneave is dumb. Especially when we start getting into the first book in all of this. No, not the Eye of the World, nor New Spring. But the largely unreleased book until post-humously released from the original author, that was not quite the same world as the WoT. But we could start to see a lot of those ideas start taking shape there. And guess what? Oh, yeah, some of the characters in there predated those two in their ideas anyway. So if anything, those two must be carbon copies of other women in Robert Jordan's writing?
@@adrianbundy3249 I'm not sure how a WoT Stan ended up replying to my reply, instead of OP, but to answer your oddly worded complaint, yes, the majority with one or two exceptions of all women written into the Wheel follow a couple of similar archetypes.
You have the quiet, reserved types who never share their opinions on the outside, the types like Moraine. Whether they have power or not, they simply push the story along without altering its course much at all. The only Forsaken I can really remember was Moghedein, and all she wanted to do was hold onto her power, walk around naked all day long, and plot from the shadows. Her influence was barely felt, until the one or two times she actually had a confrontation, but then she either ran away or got nuked from orbit.
Then on the other hand, you have the aggressive, macho feminine type who always think they know best, who never trust men, who may have some hidden or public power but never work with the team, instead doing their own thing and being vocal about it. Nynaeve, the bodyguard chick, the Dark Sister plant all follow this pattern instead.
Very few of the other female characters break from these two stereotypes. Faile, the Queen who fell in love with Mat, and maybe the other female Forsaken fall somewhere outside the Pattern on this one, but seriously, it's not that big of a deal. I think I finished reading the series 6 years ago, it's not exactly fresh in my head, and the length of the series has discouraged me from going back to it again.
My biggest issue is that Jordan obviously only ever met one woman in his life. All his main female characters have the exact same personality, way of expressing themselves and even dialogue. They feel like he has a female template that he dresses differently, gives them a different backstory, but they all act the same way.
That's kind of how I felt too when I first read the series years ago. I couldn't relate much to the female characters (which was a little weird as a female) and didn't think they were different enough from each other to really be representative of the many personalities women do have. However, there are certainly women who behave similarly to his characters, so I didn't let it bother me overmuch. I'm still a huge Wheel of Time fan for a bunch of other reasons just like Daniel Greene.
Eugene and moraine are a little different though.
I was that entranced by the series on my first read through that I didn't even notice the slog.
I'm halfway through this series and I don't know if I can finish it. If I read one more "puts fists on hips" "tugs braid" "box his ears" or "___ knows how to interact with girls" I'm going to lose it!
yes, this is about where i put the books down. i think book 6 or 7. its been a while. Also, when every room someone walks in takes a full page or two to describe.
Darrick Bowe there’s usually like a sentence of dialogue between characters before going into more detail of a room or other people in said room
I hope you don't give up. You will be happy with the payoff.
Honestly book 10 broke me. I haven't gone back since then. But I know that the rest of the series is phenomenal but I just need to let it stay in the back burner for a while.
Try David Eddings 'The Belgarion' series, you'll think WoT is a breath of fresh air by comparison. I still love Eddings works but its more nostalgia than anything else.
I feel like one of my biggest criticisms that you don't mention is how the main characters are all amazing with the one power. Rand makes sense he has another power user in him teaching him essentially but the other characters don't and they just become awesome for no reason or discover something at just the right time. The power becomes a total deus ex machina for the main characters but not for the antagonists. Also during the start of the series it felt like the women (Elayn, Egwene, Nynaeve) just stumble from trap to trap. Honestly most of the series they seem to keep getting captured for silly reasons and then discovering some hidden talent to get them out of trouble. Many times when they are captured they are the only survivors for not apparent reason when it would be prudent to kill them off. I agree that WOT is amazing and with your list for the most part. Just felt like these were two fairly glaring issues that weren't covered.
I finally gave up to the pressure, I'm gonna start reading The Wheel of Time! I'm both excited and intimidated to start this lengthy journey. (Great videos btw lol)
One thing I'd like to tell the characters of The Wheel of Time after reading 6 books:
Can you guys just like, TALK TO EACH OTHER for once!!!! Really it gets annoying especially with Nynaeve and Elayne
Same
Yes! Exactly this! On my 3d reread and I get so frustrated with the lack of communication! So many problems that could be avoided if they just talked and explain their point of view, not ASSUMED that everyone saw things their way! And then be pissed when people don't.
I actually enjoyed this because of how well it mimicks real life lol
I guess people hate the pacing halfway through the series, but i know it's worth it to get to the end :)
@Fiif You nailed it, and I stopped at the same time. Was also frustrated that I had to wait for him to put out the next book, and there was no indication of how long it would take. But now, all these years later with the series finally completed and hearing all the positive reviews, I decided to try again and so here I am...200 pages in on the first book. I hope my friends will still remember me
@Fiif you actually dropped it BEFORE the pacing gets really bad, so if you already had trouble, you probably wont make it through books 7-10.
The pacing is what made me drop it. I made it up to the cleansing (and maybe the book after that, it was one of the last books in paperback at the time) and was burnt out at that point. I do not feel the desire to dive back in and go through that one more time, and this is someone who keeps Honor Harrington, Belgarion, and Lessa permanently on my shelves.
The Wheel of Time changed my life, and I'm not even exaggerating.
I'm almost done with book 4, and the thing that gets me the most so far is the female characters. His descriptions of women are often very 'breast-centric'.
Necklaces are never worn around someone's neck, they're worn above breasts. Hair doesn't run down past shoulders or backs, it runs down over breasts. People cross their arms above or below their breasts. And don't even get me started on dresses. Whenever I see it, it always knocks me out of a story that I'm really enjoying and makes me go "Aw, c'mon RJ, did you have to write it that way?"
Yeah that is pretty annoying alongside the general nyniyeve gender war stuff
@@pipsqeak7104 What Nyaneve gender-war stuff?
Ngl though I do respect how Jordan sees breasts as just a natural part of a female’s body rather than being used as a form of sexualisation or being inaporopriate. Breasts are treated as casually as arms and hair and it’s refreshing to see
The books are for adults, be an adult. Get over it.
I respectfully agree with the two comments above; A) it’s an adult book series, meant for adults to be consumed as such, and B) breasts are just another body part to be acknowledged. It’s not sexualization to talk about hands and hair and eyes as often as Jordan does, so breasts (covered, at that) should be no exception.
You are right Daniel. We need to see faults in what we love, and see the positives in what we hate. And in the spirit of this video, it is time for us to finally enjoy Terry Goodkind.
Marco Meijer hahahahaha
Whoever doesn't read Goodkind, hey, it's their loss. I love my WOT but The Sword of Truth series is fantastic. If he ripped off Jordan, he definitely did it the right way.
Emilio Rodriguez my problem with goodkind’s writing, his public behavior aside, is the fact that it’s really repetitive, he uses a pattern of story then deus ex machina to solve problem then the second book is fallout from it and barely focuses on the issues then it’s resolved by another deus ex machina, then there’s an issue from the last deus ex machina, then rinse and repeat, there is very little conflict, characters make really snap decisions for very little reason, plotlines that don’t really further the story and a bit of a tonal problem. I read up to the beginning of book 6 and just stopped because it was just not going anywhere
I did read the synopsis and it just looked like a lengthy load of very little happening until the last book where everything happens
@@licenciado1970 I've read the full 11 book sword of truth series, and it has two very major, interconnected problems. 1- Richard, and to a lesser extent Kahlan, are set up narratively to be these perfectly moral people who are awesome and always succeed and are always right, when a great deal of their actions- when looked at objectively- are horrific war crimes. 2- the author doesn't even seem to care about the actual story- he just wants to preach Ayn Rand objectivism. The series is just Atlas Shrugged with wizards.
Daniel [1:41] : "I'm not going to take the time to contradict every point."
Then proceeds to push back on nearly every criticism he raises.
Love it.
It does mean the title is misleading
He's the male version of Nynaeve.
Just started the first book of the Wheel of time so this was a very helpfull and interesting video. And also I had never heard of the series before discovering your channel awhile back (maybe that because it isn't as big in Sweden, where I live. BUt that's just a guess).
Also I'm only like 15 chapters in and I can already see many other books that I've read taking insperation from this start. Like my childhood favourite Eragon, the starts are super similiar (Still love the innheritance cycle). It will be interesting to see if I like the first book when I'm done and if I will like the rest of the series. Keep up the great content.
The slog introduced me to audible.
The unnecessary and repetitive misandry from a lot of the female characters was annoying.
If Nynaeve got a whiff of a y chromosome, you know she'd comment about how 'men thought with the hairs on their chest' or something like that.
Yes but to compensate, Matt's negative remarks about women were also numerous and annoying, and looked like misogyny at some points... That's one of the reasons why I had to wait until book 6/7 to appreciate him (so a bit later than others)
You know, it actually makes sense. And it's not just Nynaeve. She's the most guilty, but she's not alone. Remember the world they are in. Remember what happened three thousand years prior to the story. Men literally broke the world. That is a trauma that sticks. It's why Reds by and large are at least indifferent to them, if not outright despise them. A man did something big on his own because the women didn't support him, but that part has been drowned in first hits companions and then every other man who could channel starting havoc. There was murder, destruction and literal reshaping of the land wrought by men. The scope of that is not well shown. Fires of Heaven makes a few points about it, but beyond that it's mostly the Forsaken making remarks. All that because ONE man couldn't wait and acted on his own, with 100 other men who followed him. Which didn't really help the issue. And that man is feared for it. Hated. Men causing problems invokes these deeply buried traumas. Gives many women the feeling that they can't rely on men, that their involvement will only cause problems and even make things worse.
@@nestrior7733 true except for the point about Lew's not wanting to wait
The shadow was starting to far out gun the light.
If the bore wasn't sealed soon the light would lose
The male and female split is what caused the breaking
Considering the lore it more than makes sense. Also the whole WoT world is a matriarchy, what the hell do you expect? Sunshine and rainbows? Try working in an environment where 90% of people are woman, then give me a call.
Alexis Q. Oh please. The most mat ever says is “women are hard to understand” perfectly reasonable since he’s surrounded by Aes Sedai
I got through the last 4 books with the help of the audiobooks. Love reading and listening to the audio. I cried like a baby reading the last one, as I got attached to the characters. I took me about two years to finish it, but it took me through some rough times. Indeed, it's a hard to read series, a ton of characters moments, etc. And yes, Mat is amazing!!!
When you talk about Knife of Dreams I remember reading the third entry in The Song of Ice and Fire. I Feel the same way about A Storm of Swords. Best book I've ever read. I don't have anything else to say. Martin cemented his name in history with that book. A Game of Thrones is shocking and incredible. The payoff, stakes, and story in ASOS is so off the charts I measure every book I read by it.
Hats off to Sanderson for the Stormlight Archives...its the closest I ever come to reading its equal.
I always appreciated what others have called the "slog".....I always appreciated that maybe by chance or by Jordan's own plan, the "slog" part accurately mimics for the Reader the kind of frustration Rand must have felt having to "slog" through petty national politics when all he wants is to spill some blood on the some rocks and get the whole ordeal over with
Rushav Mohanty I like this viewpoint
Agreed. That and it was sort of a placeholder while he positioned the world for the conflict incoming, although he could have spread it out more and interlaced it,he did what he could.
The slog was just Jordan milking the story cash
@@Henry-jp3mc of course he was that's what a capitalist does we've got to write books we've got to make things we've got to bro things we've got to manufacture things just like he did with these books that's what makes him great
“It had flaws, but what does that matter when it comes to matters of the heart? We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.” ( - The Wise Man's Fear)
I totally love The Wise Man's Fear despite its flaws. The best I can say for WoT is that I respect Jordan's ambitious effort.
wise man's fear and name of the wind are overrated and have cringe romance.
@@georgethompson1460 it’s supposed to be cringe romance lol it’s a teenager, name of the wind is an incredible book
If anything, the length of the series is my favorite parts. You can get an expansive, detailed world and a plethora of developed characters that simply cannot be achieved in a shorter work.
If anything it's too short.
I'm gonna be honest, I just finished my first read through of WoT, and I was warned about "the slog" as I drew near it. It really wasn't nearly as bad as I was told it would be by my buddy, and I REALLY enjoyed CoS which is supposed to be the start of the slog. I think a large part of it is perception. If people are going in with the thought that there is going to be a slog, they're going to make a slog in their mind for it.
Yup, doing my first read through right now, and the romance parts have been truly terrible.
Actually a lot of the relationships between characters in general are weird tbh.
I'm on book 2, and I can already see that
Just finished book 2 and yeah, all the relationships so far, especially the weird thirst 3 women have for rand (i guess Egwene has an excuse), are weaksauce
@@TheMightofDab right ughhh it goes to show that no book is perfect
On a reread, you do pick up hints of the Nyneave and Lan relationship. Just watch for it on your reread.
I quite like the nynaeve/ lan relationship in the first books. Its been less than a handful, but those were very elegant ways of portraying how they felt for each other.
I can’t wait to read WoT again in two years when I have finished my other list of books and am out of college
TubLar Good luck with college! You can do it!
Same over here, bro
Listen to it! Michael Kramer and Kate Reading do an absolutely amazing job on the audio book and you can control the playback speed.
You actually kinda made me want to go back and reread the series. I grew up with it, and the end of it came out quite late for me. I was lost to the slog. I read the Sanderson ending and enjoyed it after a fashion, but mostly felt like "meh... can't believe I once thought this was the greatest thing ever written".
So yeah, maybe a reread?
I've read all 15 books 3 times. I love this series. The slog is not so bad on the reread. But back in the day when we were waiting 3 years between books only to have half of the story's plotlines advanced by a week was tedious. 10 years of the plot slogging along was brutal. Reading it now that it is completed is not bad at all.
Given the enormity of the task, Sanderson did an excellent job with the last three books, bringing the series to a more than satisfying conclusion. As a fan who intends to re-read the series, I never felt "the slog" in the middle since there are definitely some great moments in those books, but I do think Jordan's writing would have benefited from some editing to cut down on description in places. I love your insight about Wheel of Time being a bridge between classic and modern fantasy.
I just cant stand how Robert Jordan writes women they all seem like they have a giant chip on their shoulder and made me dislike nearly all of them
i think it was definitely intentional from RJ. WOT has a matriarchal power structure across pretty much every region in Randland. The Aes Sedai act all superior because they genuinely believe they are and genuinely believe its their purpose to guide/lead the region. That power structure is devolved even to Wisdoms in villages (hence nynaeve). Once you see why RJ had characters acting in that way, their chapters became a lot more interesting for me.
I think a great example is Pevara. Although it was under Sanderson rather than RJ, she encapsulated the Aes Sedai superiority complex in her initial scenes, but through androl we see how the world is changing away from the matriarchal structure. tldr i think youre supposed to dislike people like egwene and most of the aes sedai, because that allows you to understand the politics of the world better.
Yep, this is the most frustrating aspect to me, RJs female characters are a bad distraction from the rest of the story in soooo many scenes. I think he possibly didnt ever figure out how to write female characters, which is a shame.
I'd make a giant swing here and say if you did a poll on if RJs characterizations of women are good, single men would say no, married men would say yes.
If you say "I have a girlfriend, I don't think..."
Well........ I suggest you go meat some real women....And I do mean woman not girls... Jordon is spot on.
@@saiintFPS Intentional in that that's probably what he thinks of women.
The Slog: Starring: Perrin Aybara & Faile ni Bashere t'Aybara. Also starring: The Shaido Aiel. Elayne Trakand (sometimes).
And Perrin Aybara again.
Nothing with Perrin is slog. Now Nyneave and Elayne in the Lord of Chaos....
My top question is: where did you get that amazing looking collector's set? In love with those book jackets.
It's so beautiful!
I lost all my hardcovers and paperbacks personal library some years ago, due some...sad, even tragic life event; and till this days, I do miss my physical books dearly.
Some years ago, I made the "choice" (forced mainly by monetary concerns) to reconstituate it almost to the last title, and even some more new additions, as download e-books.
It is fantastic, yet... somehow, it doesn't feel the same, and I will always regret my beautiful shelves full of colorful books...
I remember starting Wheel of Time when I was a teenager and absolutely loving it. Every time a new book came out, I re-read the whole series to be ready. This lasted up to book 7 (Lord of Chaos being the last one I re-read). I believe that at that point, it got out that Jordan was sick and I remember that books took way longer to come out... and to be honest, they weren't that good. Waiting a couple of years for a poorly paced book more or less killed my passion and when he announced a new spring that did it for me - I felt the story was going along at a glacial pace already and 'wasting time' on a prequel didn't appeal to me one bit. So I figured - I'm going to read other stuff and come back to the series when it's finished. This was around book 8ish?
And I almost never did. I got a job in 2019 where I have a lot of time to listen to podcast and audio book and finally remembered that I had never finished the wheel of time. But that was over 10 years ago at this point and I decided to re-read everything. The first few books, while not perfect, were quite the experience as it felt like a fog was rolled back from my memory and sometimes reading just a few lines would bring back entire story arc crashing back into my mind (e.g. I had totally forgotten about Loail and the Ogiers!, so when Rand bumps into him orginally, that was like a lightning bolt hit me). It's a very special experience to recall stuff that had been buried in your mind for over a decade.
Still, it surprised me that many of the books that I remembered foundly (Lord of Chaos expecially) were, through more matures and sophisticated eyes, pretty poorly paced. There's a lot of inconsistency within the character themselves as well.
Book 7 and 8 are pretty lackluster...
Book 9 is not a good book, but it is somewhat redeemed by a great ending.
And crossroad of twilight is honestly a terrible book. It feels like a 100 pages short story could have accomplished what was done in this book. What doesn't help it's that it is the very moldy cherry on the melted sunday that is book 7-8-9... The 'slump' as some people call it, was very real for me. It slayed teenage me years ago and almost did the same decades later when I tried to finish it. I stuck to it however - in great part because I have 30 to 35 hours of 'listening time' per week at work and the WoT audio series was a no brainer way to fill up a few months... not because I was enjoying it at that point.
Things pick up again, a sentiment I know Daniel share with a Knife of Dream - Jordan is back in rare form and it is a good thing he got to write that book as I feel his legacy as an author would have taken quite the hit if he had left things on Crossroad.
I was not familiar with Sanderson... but honestly, I think I like his style better than Jordan's. I enjoyed the last few books, even thought I felt the pacing was disjointed (The idea of having all the 'main plot' stuff happen in Gathering Storm and then having the 'less important' character in the Tower of Midnight catch up to it felt like being on a threadmill...) and the ending, while satisfying in some way, was disapointing in other - but overall, it could have been a lot worse considering how drawn out the series is and how many plots line need to be closed.
I honestly have a hard time saying it's the greatest fantasy work ever written... problem is, I don't read that much fantasy, so I'm not sure what I would put on the throne instead of it.
TLDR: it's a good series, but it has way to many problem to be considered the greatest.
Philippe Poupart is you like Sanderson I would recommend Mistborn from him.
Is it weird that, as a person preparing to take the WoT plunge...the "slog" makes me want to read it more???
so, how did it go?
The fandom who spent years discussing detailed re-reads on Tor's own website never used the term "slog". However, Perrin's story arc through those slower books is affectionately called the PLOD (plot line of death). There were quite a number of folks who simply skipped any chapter with a wolf symbol for several books.
I read WoT in five or six months; I still didn’t mind the repetition. It was all beautifully written. The most mundane shit was so well written. I’d read Jordan write about paint dry if I could. Some of it was like poetry.
I agree. Everyone seems to complain about Jordan's descriptions of scenery and dresses and everything but I love it. Not simply because it helps me picture it in my mind's eye but also because I feel that this is where his talent with words shines the most. It's so well-written it makes this entire world sound poetic and magic. For me, *this* is fantasy.
I'm only on Lord of Chaos right now and the thing I struggle most about his repetition is what he chooses to repeat over and over again. He will repeat the fundamentals of the dream world, or saiden or saidar every single time it's used, but some random character that hasn't shown up for four books? Not gonna waste the time explaining who that is. So many obvious tidbits that I feel you have to know about the series gets repeated while stuff you'd more likely need to be reminded of just never gets mentioned. This just ends up making the stuff that does get repeated seem even MORE frustrating.
I'm at this point right now, and its fucking hilarious how useless the glossary at the back of the book is. Want to know what the Trolloc Wars were? Heres an entry that essentially says "A war with the Trollocs". Want to know what the breaking of the world was? Well its a fundamental part of the world thats been explained multiple times but sure, hes a quick explainer? Trying to remember the difference between two low-appearance but high-importance characters that are diametrically opposed but their names are literally only different by one letter? GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU INATTENTIVE PRICK! FUCKING GOOGLE IT! I DARE YOU TO RISK THE SPOILERS FROM JUST TYPING A NAME!
Sometimes the books felt like a bad DnD session where the DM wanted every travel day to be played out. Also, it sure felt like Jordan had issues with women. I've several of his other novels and there is this thread of men and women just don't get each other, ever.
You mean like real life? Yeah.
@@AlexanderVRadev Which part, the travel grind, the misunderstanding or both?
@@gozer87 the misunderstanding
@@ameyaagarwal1170 I guess I'm lucky. I understand the women in my life. .
@@AlexanderVRadev I hate this fucking cop-out of every WoT fan!
Daniel I love your Channel, and the Passion you have for the Wheel of Time makes me feel bad that I couldn’t even finish the eye of the world, after about 3/4 I was bored with the book.
Never did the trick for me either.
Yet strangely, I rather enjoy hearing Daniel sharing his passion for it.
Eye of the world you need to reach Camelyn. Once you reach Camelyn it becomes good. Author dragged the escape from Shadar logoth to Camelyn so much that anyone will feel bored since nothing great is happening.
@@kunalsinghal1247 I ended listening to the whole series as audiobook, that did work for me and I bought the remaining novels. But the series only became more appealing to me when Jordan changed Mat from an annoying character to an awesome one.
I'm happy that there're people like you out there, respect.
Greetings from Bulgaria
Hey Daniel, I started reading the Eye of The World because of your channel. So far I'm loving it, it is a bit slow but it feels like it's going to be a good trip. Have a nice day.
Good for you. Keep on reading. This series will blow your mind. As far as I'm concerned, the wheel of time is the best epic fantasy ever written. I stand by this statement.
Some of the repetition in "The Wheel of Time" was a sort of requirement at the time in fantasy writing. Maybe not to that extent, but I was a reader in the late 80s through 90s of fantasy and repetition to remind readers was quite common. There were even recaps in many books. Totally unnecessary in my view, I remember thinking that back then, but it was actually a thing at the time.
There were sometimes years between the books, and many series we're not completed back then, that we can binge read today.
It's a quite simple explanation, really.
I’ve had two different experiences while reading/listening to the series. My first foray into the wheel of time I got to the slog and had to stop reading for a bit because it’s pacing and I just didn’t care about almost any of the not Rand Matt or Perrin scenes. I had to force my self to push through it and get back to the crazy awesome story I wanted to experience. By the time I finished the knife of dreams when the preorders for a memory of light on amazon were announced. I finished the whole series and loved it and wanted more so I started the series over again. On my second go through I hit what I thought was the slog before only to absolutely love these books for character growths, majors plot points, and all the political intrigue. The pacing was still an issue but other than that some of the most important character moments happen during these few books. I was shocked but happy that the parts I felt dragged down by before now felt where fleshing out and rounding my favorite characters in meaningful and real ways instead of just rushing to the confrontation with the shadow. I feel that the reason I got such differing experiences was mainly to do with my goal in reading the story. My first time through I had to know how it ended and I almost quit reading when I heard RJ died luckily they got Brandon S to come in and give us the best ending I think we could have asked for out of some other than RJ. My second time I know that the end was something I loved and didn’t need to worry about so I allowed myself the time to fully invest in all the characters their struggles and lives not just our three male hero’s + Nynaeve. An easier way to look at it would be: my first read I was in to for the destination more than the journey, my second time through the journey was the more important than the destination. I’m about to go through the series again and other than the dropped plotlines in the end and some of the not so good relationships I’m super excited to really dive deep into the series again. There are plenty of things to grouch about any series, and the wheel of time is no different. For me, though gene flawed as it was the wheel of time was so good I had trouble ready other series without comparing them to it and finding them wanting. Thanks for another great video on one of my favorite book series.
Man I’m just starting Eye of the World and I’m so excited for this adventure even with the cons because they can all still be enjoyed
I'm surprised, that their isn't a fan edit of some of the slower books.
You've just given my my idea for a new project!
@@Rennies-World :)
The whole concept of the slog in WOT I find fascinating because I argue that’s a tendency of a lot of long running series books, movies etc. there will come a point where things seem really stale and one note. For example I love One Piece. It’s one of my favorite manga series of all time. But ever since its time skip I felt it was a slog. Now recently it’s gotten really good and I see now that Oda was taking his time. Yeah I have criticisms of those arcs but they build upon one another beautifully. So to get back on topic if Robert Jordan did something like this I have no gripes about that.
Only Dressrosa felt sloggy, but the end of it and the allies they made there were awesome, not to mention the Rise of God Ussop!!!
@@pokedoctor2087 Not really. Fisherman's Island was pretty meh as an arc. A good beginning and ending but a horrible middle part. Dressrosa was bad because it was too big of an arc and Oda could have accomplished all of it by breaking it down into multiple arcs. That said, it does set up a lot of the current arc as well. Overall, I find most of the post-time skip a mixed bag with Zou onwards actually being very good. And is a step down from pre-time skip.
damm...I need to get back to watching one piece then....I pretty much stopped reading the manga during the punk hazard arc
@@sukanatkanchanabhogin3565 read the manga, it has better pacing
1. It's interesting hearing you refer to this as a gateway to 'modern' fantasy for the 'classic' fans. My experience was more the other way around. It wasn't until I had finished WoT in 2015 that I was finally able to persevere through LoT.
2. I am one of those slower readers. It took me 3 years to read WoT (although to be fair, I finished school and started college during that time). The repetition didn't bother me mostly, it saved me from paging through an earlier book to confirm some vague memory of a detail or small plot point.
With the repetitive nature of Nynaeve's braid-pulling or the swishing of Faile sharpening her blades, it felt to me like they were supposed to be small habits they weren't even conscious of. The fact that these were reiterated constantly felt in line with that, and my impression is that Robert Jordan was leaning into the mundane, creating, for me at least, what felt like a more intimately familiar connection to the characters.
3. My biggest issues with the slog was a perceived imbalance in the distribution of character storylines in the novels. I remember finishing a book and thinking "Huh, there was barely any Rand in this one" or with another one "So wait, whats happening with Perrin? I need to know what Perrin's doing. PLEASE let the next book start with Perrin!"
Thank you for the spoiler-free video as I'm currently on book 9! As a big fan of classic fantasy, I hope you're right about this being a bridge to modern fantasy, as I haven't read much.
This is just my personal taste but I am currently on book 6 and I think the books would have not lost much if they had been shortened by a good 30% for readability and pacing purposes. For someone who likes to follow plots and stories, I'm often discouraged to continue because I feel like there is so much pointless description and especially bickering between characters. I know that for a lot of people, that's "establishing the characters" and "developing them", "giving them fully fleshed personalities", which are very valid points, but I think Jordan often exaggerates a bit to a point where people just disagree with each other to extents that I find not only unrealistic but also a bit exhausting for the reader. I personally don't care much about the different interactions and relationships between characters and the "conflicts" related to it as much as I care about the wonderful worldbuilding, setting and plot Jordan created. I wish he could have done "more with less", if that makes sense? Maybe I'm just being too picky, I don't know.
How dare you have a level headed, reasonable opinion on something we love. How dare you!! Keep the WoT content coming!
The thing about skipping the slog, is that when the pipe lights at end, you’ll long for more time in Jordan’s realm
I remember seeing the cover for knife of dreams, especially after book 10, and was just like oh no....but dang if those last four weren't great
There's three issues I can think of that made me quit the series... The CONSTANT complaining from the men about women, and from the women about the men, was so annoying! I'm ok with some characters being huffy from time to time, but it felt like everyone was so hung up on it constantly. The pacing throughout the books I read bothered me. The series just came to a grinding stop one too many times for me (this is connected to the next thing). I also never understood why some characters got so much pagetime. They didn't do anything, and there were plenty of others that could have benefitted from that development (SPOILER: did we need an entire chapter about Elayne taking a bath? Instead of showing us what was up at the Black Tower?)
I can see where some of the repetition would be a problem now, with all the books published and you can go straight from one to the next. It was much less an issue when I first read the series and was waiting 1-2 years in between each book. Some reminders about things were helpful then.
I'm reading Crossroads of Twilight right now, so it's a huge relief to hear that the next book is where it gets good again. x.x Definitely wouldn't have wanted to skip the last few, though! I agree that some really important things happen there. And I SO agree about the romance I have no idea why half of the couples get together because they hated each other for so long.
I keep watching videos, particularly on your channel, about the Wheel of Time. It sounds so exciting and I keep wanting to get into epic fantasy. In the past of course I read Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, Warrior Cats, Guardians of Gahoole and the Inheritance Cycle but for some reason I can never get through Fellowship of the Ring. It's just too dense for me. Which is a shame considering how loved it is. I love fantasy movies and shows and concepts, but man getting through some books....oof.
I was the same, absolutely inhaled the likes of Harry Potter and the Inheritance Cycle, but could not get past Tom Bombadil in Fellowship. When I finished Wheel of Time I thought to myself "If I can read a 14-book series, then maybe I can manage Lord of the Rings" so I picked it up again, and before I knew it I had finished The Return of the King.