I have made this comment on the subreddit on more than one occasion. WOT needs a "Finished cut". I bought and read WOT this year, it was the majority of my January. Reading WOT as the books came out is VASTLY different to me devouring all 15 books in 20 days. The "Slog" is a huge part of this yes... I read 1-6 a book a day, and 12-15 a book a day. 7-11(not all of 11) is where it got to roughly 2 days per book and almost felt like a chore chewing through very large sections. Outside of "The Slog", every book has the same "phrases" over and over and over. Those who have read know EXACTLY what I mean here. Reading it as it came out these things probably made you smile with nostalgia... but back to back to back... it just makes you sigh. Now think about the show... think about the episode Daniel did talking about "What to remove", a lot of this could actually be removed. Elayne's "battle" for power... long, boring, pointless in general for the story, and irritates people with Elayne's reckless nature. Pretty much the entire "Bowl of WInds" arc could be removed and the story loses nothing... I am not saying these SHOULD be removed, just saying that a lot could be "cleaned up" without hurting the actual story. I think if a 10-12 book "recut" of the series was released... it would do A LOT to bring a new audience. Many more people would be willing to pick it up, and some of those will become superfans and want to read the original cut on their next re-read. Me personally after doing it once... I absolutely loved the story but I don't think I could do a re-read... For me, once all the way through, watch the series... open a new chapter.
Fantasy: Everyone agrees the Dark Lord is evil and must be destroyed. It's just that they don't agree on how. Real Life: Everyone agrees there is a Dark Lord but no one agrees on WHO that Dark Lord is let alone how to destroy them.
I'm halfway through Crown of Swords and the biggest problem I have is that everyone just jumps to their first assumptions, they never go like "Hm, maybe this person I've known all my life might not be such an ass, maybe I need a bit more info"
@@robhines9119 I'm about mid way through KoD (second time through the series, though I never read past this one due to many of the issues that are very common criticisms). The scenery receives a much more detailed treatment than the characters IMO. You can read a scene and almost perfectly picture it in your mind, but the characters make decisions (even during internal dialog) that all seem to be geared toward driving conflict. None of them seem to accept any change at all except over the course of multiple books and all are incredibly unable to perform any self reflection at all. They almost universally see their own faults in others (especially people who are supposedly close!) while being completely oblivious to the same faults in themselves (and it really does not get better as of KoD!) That and Nynaeve's braid pulling...there are probably a full 5 chapters that could be put together from that alone - maybe a short volume.....
@@yissnakklives8866 Agree 100%. Also i would like to add is that Mat and Perrin are REALLY crappy "friends" even knowing the difficult things Rand will have and is going through they just turn their backs on him for no reason even as early as book 2. And while im mid rant I just remembered, has any of them ever ask the other how they were?
You know, one weird thing in WoT I’ve never seen mentioned is how it handles punishment. When a person is punished, it’s either scrubbing pots and a spanking or brutal torture and execution with nothing in between. And there’s a lot of spanking. It’s weird.
Yeah in between the spanking, people being tied up and stripped naked, and a lot of humiliation, I started wondering if the author had a specific fetish and once I saw it I could never unsee it.
@@nomisunrider6472 There is a lot of kind of "kink adjacent" language in his books. I dunno if its because he is slipping some of his own life into the story (intentionally or otherwise) or if he was using it for shock value. I kind of hope its the first, because the kink community doesn't need to be used for shock value, but in the 90's thats *absolutely* something fantasy authors were doing. Taking a half understood part of kink and exaggerating it to make a bad guy seem extra bad.
That's pretty realistic, though. Historically those were two of the three main forms of punishment (the third being fines). It was either a birching in town square, or an eye gouging. There really wasn't any 'in between'. The carceral state is a modern invention; a dungeon was either a temporary place to stash someone until they could be more permanently dealt with, or an oubliette for them to be lost in.
A lot of people just can't wrap their heads around liking something while also acknowledging and indeed criticizing its flaws. It's so often I get into a discussion with someone that thinks I hate the topic of discussion simply because I'm aware of its drawbacks lmao
And vice versa. I've gotten into a lot of discussions with people that think I'm blind to a film or book's flaws simply because I still like it in spite of its imperfections.
I think this is an obvious downside of making everything political. If you criticize, you must be against. If you praise, you must be for. There seems to be an infantilization of discussion being pushed out into the zeitgeist.
It's refreshing to hear a confirmed WoT fanboy say that a new fantasy reader should NOT start with WoT. Over on Facebook WoT fan groups the idea that you should recommend anything else first is considered heresy by some. In fact, I did a poll once because I was fairly sure a majority of the page's members had read nothing in the genre besides WoT and maybe, perhaps, Lord of the Rings, years after re-reading WoT for the tenth time, because they'd been told Jordan was inspired by it. The poll indeed found that most of the page's members had read few, if any, other fantasy authors. If they had, it was Tolkien, Sanderson and maybe Hobb or someone who got compared to Jordan a lot. It went a long way to explaining why so many believe RJ was the greatest writer in the genre. I love WoT (really, I do) but I don't even think RJ was the greatest fantasy writer of his day, let alone all time. He crafted an amazing story with a rich, developed world with a complete history...and spent five books dithering over minutiae that truly did not matter. Within his sprawling 14-book ramble was a truly great 6 or 7-book series struggling to get out. As I put it on a message board a while back: "If I had to compare writers I love to family members, then JRR Tolkien was my wise grandfather who'd truly lived and had a vivid way of talking to you about life and important matters. When he spoke, the room shut up and listened. George RR Martin is my Viet Nam-vet uncle, maybe with a bit of PTSD, who also likes to tell stories but you have to be careful what you ask him about, and who's listening when you do, because he won't hold back on gory details or profanity, but dangit if his stories aren't just as fascinating, if in a very different way. Robert Jordan is that absent-minded college professor of an uncle who has a lot of knowledge in his head and some wisdom as well, and you often enjoy listen to him wax eloquent, even if he often forgets what he was talking about and goes off on tangents about stuff that doesn't matter, particularly recalling what women were wearing, only occasionally saying "but where was I?" and getting back to the point. By the time he finally remembers he was going somewhere with this story, the ending seems a tad underwhelming." Oh boy am I asking for it with this.
Its kind of funny that Robert Jordan actually served in Vietnam and George R. R. Martin was a conscientious objector and you have it the other way around in your imagined family. Maybe you are putting the wrong traits into the people here, though i doubt any clear generalization could ever be made. you could maybe turn it around that Jordan is the war vet who has so many though memeories that his mind goes on tangents and the GRRM is the professor with such a vivid imagination that he goes into full war mode when telling about battles he never took part in. :D Personally i have read alot of fantasy and find Jordan to be one of the best ever in the genre, though i would never say someone is the best, cause tastes are different and someone cant be best at everything, if you forced me to give an asnwer i would say Tolkien for the world he build around his story, but i still think Jordan crafed a better story. Sanderson is better at magic systems than Jordan, Abercrombie is the master of morally gray heroes. I dont find GRRM a master of anything really, but he used to be a very good author. All good authors bring something to the table, some even invent new dishes while most just perfect the classics. After this long post, I will agree, WoT or even Lord of the Rings is not the place to start. My start was Narnia, that is a good place if you can stomac the religion being dealt, Harry Potter is the more modern version of the same type of start. For an adult reader i would say Abercrombie or Sanderson are far better starting places, also some of Tad Williams books (the ones that are not too slow).
@@timpeterjensen2364 Sanderson's dialogue CRUSHES Jordan. When Sanderson took over WoT, it was like "Oh, so this is how normal, realistic people talk. I had forgotten."
I really struggled to get through the books. There are massive chunks where you go from a great action sequence to a slow arduous crawl. Jordan describes every little detail of an Aes Sedai tea party, half the time these are character introductions so you feel you have to pay attention despite the painful pacing. For those who can get through these sequences, the rewards of the series are great!
I honestly think EVERYTHING is great except the over description. Like one sec we are seeing a monster and suddenly the character glances at the sky and we are told in two pages of how it looked,the climate of the area,the economy of the city,the family tree of the friend,how every brick in the house behind the monster is made etc etc. But the characters,story,plot etc is greattt
for me, the problem is i choose to read book of the fallen first. im not a super bookworm so ive stayed away from these 2 huge series. when i finally read them, i decided to read BoTF first and i loved it! that gave me some expectations on Wot that i felt unmet.
I don't mind long descriptions, but they should be creative and detailed. Jordan describes taverns, for example, in a way that says "generic fantasy tavern", with nothing special about them. At one point, towards the end of the first book (which is as far as I got), he describes a suit of armor simply by cataloguing all the parts. Which is kind of like describing a car by telling you it had four wheels, windows, a chassis, etc. I mean, he tries to make the world come alive, so I give him props for that, it was clearly a labor of love (emphasis on "labor").
Daniel, you are the main reason I have even given this series a chance. That and I have a job where I spend a lot of time in a clean room and I'm allowed to wear headphones. So, 8 hours a day, I can dedicate to listening to audiobooks. I figured why not go through a massively long series like Wheel of Time? And it's probably only because of that that I have gotten as far as I have. I'm in the first quarter of book four and I'm struggling. I know this one is a personal favorite of yours so I'm here for a little help. I'm struggling with these characters. It seems as if the beginning of each book, at least the first half, starts with all the characters being stubborn just for the sake of being stubborn. The plot doesn't really move forward or come together until the last 20 pages. And that's when my excitement for this series really peaks. I start loving these characters because of the courage and growth that I'm seeing just in those 20 pages. Then the beginning of the next book happens and they seem to be right back where they were at the beginning of the previous book, being stubborn little s**** just for the sake of being stubborn. I don't like any of these characters and the one character that I do like gets s*** on constantly by these egotistical, self-centered, entitled Little children from The two Rivers. So please Daniel, help me. I love RJ's world building, the culture, I even love the exposition dumps where I get to learn more about the world as it becomes relevant. It felt like RJ took what annoyed me about Tolkien and made it amazing. So please help me because I really really want to like this series
The Wheel of Time world is a very broken world, largely because it is based on our world. And yes, pretty much every character is flawed in some way. Some of the best moments in the books are when the characters grow and mature and overcome those flaws. Without going into spoilers, Mat has some awesome character moments when he accepts the responsibility of being a leader. Nynaeve (sp?) has one of the greatest scenes in the books, and it is when she finally digs her head out of her butt and stops trying to prove how great she is (I'm being very vague to avoid spoilers), and one of the reasons it is so great is because of how much she had to go through to get there. Yes, a lot of the characters are very stubborn. One take is that it is one of the first books to address mental trauma, and you realize how pretty much every character has gone through massive trauma. Some are more obvious than others. It also shows how corrupt powerful government can be. Again, I don't want to go into details for spoiler reasons, but if you really think about it, every ajah in the White Tower has completely and utterly failed at their stated mission. And therefore many of Aes Sedai are not great people, because they have lost connection with their home (due to being in the white tower) and have no direction in the life (because their ajah has failed), but are also all powerful wizard beings. The only thing they can identify with is power, and therefore corruption.
Idk, I’d prob be pretty stubborn and not wanna do anything either if a hoard of giant man eating monsters ransacked my village because of ME on our big festival night.. or that the literal devil who wants to destroy the world wants me, specifically, and all my closest friends dead, and is sending all his monsters to do so. I think something that gets lost on readers is that these kids are exactly that. Kids. They’re all about 16. Were you not a stubborn ass at 16 without the devil chasing you and your friends? All jokes aside, this series is beloved because the people who take the time to finish it get to grow with these characters. We’ve all hated one or more of them throughout the series, but their development is some of the greatest writing ever done. It has its faults, and there are many, it eclipses 14,000 pages, but it is genuinely, in my opinion, the greatest fantasy story ever told, ever. Ps, it’s a commitment, but give it till Dumais wells.
I had an odd experience with the series growing up; online, anywhere I looked basically everyone hated the series with a burning passion and had many harsh words about the author. Up until the author died, then suddenly everyone loved the series.
I for one, am happy you've enjoyed it enough to continue. Myself and the author of this vid, have similar viewpoints, Starting WOT as first Fantasy read is a gamble. You won, most don't, and it can turn them off to listening to other great recommendations as a result of it.
Yep I didn’t notice many of the probs that people where talking about. Sometimes it was repetitive with language and alittle slow When Robert Jordan was fucking dying but that’s understandable
My 1st series was Harry Potter. 2nd was the sword of truth by Terry goodkind. 3rd mistborn Brandon Sanderson. 4th Wheel of time. Can anyone suggest something up my alley? I was thinking about drzzit
I think that Robert Jordan wanted to show just how life happens all at once, like the battle descriptions, the personal entanglements, and the struggles with rallying all the peoples to a singular cause. The very long descriptive segments add a pause of reflection. A lot like real life.
I’ve been trying to get my brother to read Wheel of Time forever. The other day as I was rhapsodizing about it, he asked my why I wanted him to read it when I complained about it so much (which I apparently do, though I never really thought about it) and I honestly had no idea what to tell him. I have more criticisms for WoT that most people do, especially more than most fans. I don’t really even like the ending that much. There’s just something about it that I can’t quite put my finger on which, despite the fact that when asked about any specific aspect of the book I could tell exactly what’s wrong with it, makes it one if my favorites. I guess it’s just an example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
Something something love makes you spend enough time enjoying something to find all the flaws in its beautiful whole, in which those flaws stand out even more
I was having this feeling lately to. I really like the "trope" (if you would call it that) of all the power of humanity united against a big bad. You can see this in sci-fi and mainly in anime. But honestly I find it really depresing that all those media properties that showed me all humanity would unite against a comon enemy were wrong.
Indeed. Just look at the world's response to corona virus. Most countries care only about their own people and hoard supplies and outbid each other. And then there are total outliers like Sweden of all countries who does not isolate its people by orders, just kindly recommends. Not so great strategy.
I always thought it was clear that generally people enjoy the first few books because the cast of characters is contained a lot better. Then people don't love how anyone that gets run into (especially early) suddenly becomes a mainish character so we get to hear about their at time tangential adventures that take attention away from the main 3-4 story lines. I personally like this; its sort of like perspective creep instead of plot creep... but in conversations with people through the years it seems to be a big turn off for some people.
Funny enough, for me the WoT's issues have less to do with aging and the cultural zeitgeist of the time and more to do with the fact that, after reading it, I couldn't remember half of what had happened. I've read other series and have a much better recollection going into the 7th/8th book than I did going into the 3rd book of this series.
Well that can be a good thing, if you enjoyed it, you may get the similar feeling to reading it for the first time. Should you decide to re-read it of course.
Honestly, it took me many many rereads to get past like, book seven. I just got used to the fact I would never remember everything and that's fine. My advice is to just keep going and enjoying what you're reading anyway
This reminds me of an exchange I had at a writer's workshop a while back. I was exchanging inspirations with another attendee & brought up The Wheel of Time. She said she'd heard good things about it, but most of the recommendations came from bad friends-turned-bullies in high school. I remember telling her something along the lines of "It was a good read for me, but don't feel pressured to pursue it. There are already more books out there than we can read on our lifetime. To waste it forcing yourself to read something with that baggage isn't worth it." I do hope she got into the series, but I was trying to not be another pushing force. The last thing she probably wanted was being told "your bullies were right," & I didn't want to be associated with that crowd.
@@oliverhopkins8074 Don't worry. Take your time. Eat some food. Get a nap in if you have to. Eventually you'll build up the strength to write in full sentences.
@@IamMeHere2See alright here's the full version. Your story sucks. Both characters are pathetic. And they're shit books so why bother. I can only assume this is your best attempt at white knighting
This is a very intellectually honest conversation - props! I am one of those people. I started reading it in the 90’s then went back in the early 00’s, I just couldn’t motivate myself to keep going in Book 3. I respect it. Love the story and the epic endings, but man he loses me in the middle, and the story is about the journey not the destination.
The thing that grates on me the hardest is that everyone in the series describes things the same way. Every single person uses multiple similes to describe everything, whether in conversation or in their internal monologues. It makes it feel like it's Robert Jordan telling what they are thinking and saying, instead of them naturally thinking and saying things.
I have always had a suspicion that a large part of the problems with WoT can be pointed at Harriet. Not that she was a bad editor, as she was already an experienced editor before meeting him, but as his wife, she was probably too involved throughout the writing process to be an *impartial* editor.
I was gonna disagree with you but you're kinda right. Your editor should be someone who can come and tell you "Look what you wrote here is horse shit, don't do this", and a wife might be reluctant to do that.
@@deaansugee I really think a more aggressive editor could have eliminated one book from between 5-10. Not just remove one book but trimming from all of them and make it one less book overall
@@deaansugee some spouses will definitely struggle with that, but I've met others who are much MORE willing to tell their partner they're full of shit without fear because of the mutual trust there Idk enough about this specific situation to say tho
@@nibblitman One book? I've started the series because of this channel, and you could probably edit out about 3 books out of what I've read, and that's only 5 and a half books...
@@nibblitman you're probably right about that, but what editor or publisher is going to recommend that when they were best sellers and making lots of money by then?
Who else remembers when all this channel was was WoT? Most of the fan base had read all the books or was reading them. Now most of the comments on WoT videos are ‘I’m trying to decide if I should read WoT’. Which is great, read it
Yep. And for those that are hesitant about climbing that mountain, there is also audiobooks for it as well, with 2 very good narrators. I was able to listen while at work. Took a little less than a year to finish...I was renting the books from the library.
@@CosmicG777 Tackling the Dresden Files right now. Almost done with the first book, but I don't know how quickly I'll move on to the next. WoT is interesting because of its accolades and popularity, so I might give Eye of the World a shot. I'm most hesitant about the excessive descriptions I always hear about--how much time he spills into setting a physical scene or presenting a character's appearance. My favorite series are Stormlight Archive, Mistborn, and the Broken Earth Trilogy, so based on that first one, WoT should be up my alley.
@@davidf.farris6619 If u go the audiobooks route for WOT, the excessive descriptions is not as bad. It's like being involved in a game of Dungeons & Dragons and the story teller is setting the mood. It's fine, only really excessive if your the one reading it. Honestly, the excessive detail is it's curse but also a benefit. It paints a picture that u step into like ur there. Sure some authors would leave out some detail and let your imagination fill in the blanks, but when it's this descriptive, it warrants a sense of realism.
@@davidf.farris6619 Also, Dresden Files is great. Good picks. I listened to those on audiobooks as well which is funny because I discovered that the narrator for those books is the guy who played Spike, on the show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I got into this channel bc of Cosmere, but now I’m on book 5 of WoT bc of the recommendations on this channel. It’s great bc I know what you guys are talking abt now😂
Oh I can't stand the narrator's voice for Faile, though. I almost stopped reading the series because of their interactions in the first half of the book though only part of it was how snotty he makes her sound. I only got through it at all by reading Perrin's sections from the physical copy I have (I switch between audio and physical for the series)
Man I can’t imagine listening to the audiobooks. I loved reading WoT but I did so much skim reading, there would be times where I skipped several whole pages in a row if there was no dialogue.
I might try the audibooks one of these days. But there are so many other audibooks I want to buy/listen to. Also, ever since I finished the series, I'm hesitant to read it again. I'm still sad/mad about the ending one of my favorite characters got.
I like the vids a lot. Anyone else? The casual format gives room to improvisation and organic pauses and it’s just a bit more laid back than, say, your Why You Should Read or Author Deep Dives. Keep these vids, they’re fun to watch!
Many feelings. So mixed. When I read Eye of the World it was like falling in love. By book 7 I realised that I wasn't having fun anymore, and actually I had probably stopped having fun about 2 whole books ago. I stopped reading and I'm glad I did. I feel like the series could have been really great if it were maybe a third as long. I wish somebody would edit the series down and release a 5 book version. I would read that.
@@pedrobriceno926 It won't be a proper WoT TV show unless they first promise it will be finished in 1 season, but then instead of that, actually make 4 seasons and then hand it over to a different team to write the 5th and final season.
Alternately, it would be better served with an updated narrative structure by collecting the individual plot threads and POVS into their own novels to keep the story lines moving. It worked very well for Steven Erikson's Malazan Books of the Fallen, and given the similarity in size and scope, I think it would work for WoT
I agree with this! Stopped at Crown of Swords. Need a long break. I spoiled the series for myself, and I loved the whole day I spent trying to gather the story. It's an amazing story, and I liked the ending as I read a succinct version of it. But, I could no longer read it. OMG, I blame that bitch Elaida.
How to start a never ending debate amongst WOT fans: ask them to pick which character is the most stubborn. EDIT: my response All valid choices in the replies, but what about Rand, Moiraine, Lan , Elayne, Aviendha, Siuan Sanche, Cadusane, any of the Aes sedai, Sorilea, any of the Aiel Wise Ones, etc. My point is this: while I liked WOT well enough, it will never be on my top favorites list (and I have been reading fantasy since the 80’s), but the main reason is a flaw that I haven’t seen mentioned a lot in the usual long list of grievances. I didn’t mind the long descriptions, the food pornography, the abundance of characters, etc…What really bothered me is that for Jordan it seems that having character = being stubborn. This has a lot of consequences, so I’ll take only one. Most if not all of the romances felt fake to me, e.g., I could buy the Rand/Min romance, but with Elayne and Aviendha, I really don’t see why they would be in love, except if you accept the logic that “the more they fight the more they love each other deep down”. That is a bit cliche and can only work so far, at the very least there should be other moments when they show a deep connection too, and that was lacking (unless you confound that with having sex). In the end I can only see two justifications for their relation, lust or fate. You could put that all on a fate “from the heavens”, a passion one cannot escape (Rand being Ta’veren etc.) even if it has no reasons, but that feels cheap and is not a conception of love that I find very appealing or grown up. Overall their relation feels childish to an extent that their age and character development would not justify. Then again, however much I love the genre, it is true that a lot of fantasy series have a tendency to be somewhat childish about characters and relations. But I don’t think that the age of the series can be used as an excuse. Two series that are on my top favorite list are the chronicles of Thomas Covenant and The Chronicles of Morgaine, both of which predate WOT. One of the big differences is that they have grown up characters with grown up relations.
In my WoT, Rand completely nukes the Seanchan and Tuon dies horribly. So with her out (dead), it's gonna have to be Egwene. She almost ruins everything
Regarding your tweet, the one thing about the Wheel of Time that NOBODY understands easily is: You have an easier time herding CATS than you do to try to get people to agree on how to wage war. Heck, look at war movies, and how impassioned they get about how they should run the plan, or to even run it in the first place! And Jordan captures that so well. It also goes to show that Rand's Talent as Ta'veren can't even help him get everyone in line, and we spend more time in the books watching him bribe, cajole, force, or beg with people to go along with it, or even work together. IT is also one of the reasons why I can't see what anyone would ever really want to be the "Hero" as they have to play overlord, babysitter, Guidance counselor, teacher and life coach to everyone just to get them to agree that "water is wet." Now, for the first part: I will say form having read a LOT of fantasy, SciFi, et. that every long series has flaws, but at the same time, there can be something good in each. HOWEVER... And this is the biggest problem with reading in general: Writers are not perfect. True there are great ones out there like Jordan or Sanderson or Bujold or Weber, but each, while good, has their own flaws that could come form a million places, such as: Editor changes they don't always agree with, Editor changes they agree with, The character "got away from them" and they had a burst of inspiration then, after it settled they are like "I like it, but what the hell do I do now?" and one of my favorites: there was something about the scene they "needed" for plot, but they could never get subtly why they didn't like what they read, even though it is "good". So with these few examples, you can probably guess there are myriad others that can cause a dissonance to the readers at times. And for others; it is just "not their cup of tea" - I mean I like Green, but dislike Earl Grey, hot, but somoene else might like Black and hate Jasmine teas. You can't please everyone as a writer - you just have to try to keep things working as best as you can for the people that do like it - even if you add too much sugar to the "tea" at times.
I was a non-traditional college student ( i.e., started at 33 yrs ) when I and a friend shared a Japanese language class in '92 and both started reading the series. I continued thru the entire series, happily. You have no idea the shock I felt walking thru the bookstore and for the first time seeing an end-cap as a memorial to Jordan. Froze in my tracks and locked eyes with the nearest worker. She asked what was wrong. After explaining his loss I was so disappointed that we would never know the end. I followed the drama of finding the writer to carry the series to its conclusion. I felt Sanderson did an excellent job ( it also helped that he just can't say in two paragraphs what he writes in five pages, god bless 'im ). Yes, the first experience of following six main characters carrying on five to six paths thru the story was difficult. Yes, the host of secondary and tertiary level characters you had to keep track of, especially the ranks of morphing baddies, was mind numbing. Yes, my head almost exploded when I read a long awaited book and found it to represent the same two week period running into a critical plot action at then end of the previous book. Yeah, it was two weeks for everyone, everywhere, and a "Where were you when JFK was shot?" kind of moment that locked all the paths to a single moment in time to kind of reorient the reader but, daaang it. But, it was ahead of its time, kept you engaged, and always left you thirsty for the next episode. You can't really ask more for your money. Your synopsis was well and honestly done.
I “may” have found Robert Jordan’s inspiration for Perrin. The Slavic god of the wild/warfare was named Perrin and also wielded an axe in battle. Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share.
i think its Perrun and idk details abt his battle approach (im bulgarian, aka slavic, so i just know of him but i havent dug deep) but overall i think you might be onto something!
@@miad3559 Perrun and Thor, plus others mixed in. Perrin is the thunder God. His hammer Mah'alleinir (Mjölnir). Matt is Odin with his two ravens Thought and Memory, his eyepatch, spear and hat. But also Matt is the Trickster, the Fox. Rand is Tyr, Christ, the Fisher King and others as well. It's why WoT is a poor choice for a person just starting to get into fantasy literature, so much of what's elevating in the series comes from the foundational idea of the Wheel and the fact that RJ encoded so much of our own history, mythologies, religions and stories back into the third age. It's the main reason I enjoyed the series. All the different pantheons mixed together with all myths and legends. All the Arthurian bits mixed in are great. Sa'angreal being so close to the French phrase san greal, (holy grail) for instance. Then there's all the stories Thom tells: Lenn going to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire (John Glenn). Mosk and Merk. (Moscow and America) The giants who went to war with lances of fire that reached around the world. Etc. Every re-read of WoT I find something I missed before because I had yet to read the stories or history it referenced.
I am currently on the 4th book of the series and I am reeeeally loving it. I want to thank Daniel for being a brand ambassador of TWOT and making so much interesting content to inspire me to go for it.
I think Shai'Tan quite literally signifies the "gap" that humans have to cross between one another to cooperate and the petty infighting mirrored that perfectly.
When they say that the Iron Tower is a ripoff of the Lord of the Rings, here's where that comes from. It was written as an unofficial sequel to the Lord of the Rings. When the author couldn't get the rights, he just rewrote the Lord of the Rings in the first book of the series and put the series in a vaguely new world. So of any series that can be called a Lord of the Rings ripoff, I think that Iron Tower is the one that might actually deserve it.
@@robertblume2951 I'd say mainly the first book, Sword of Shanara, is just LOTR with the serial number filed off. The rest of the initial series is definitely heavily influenced by LOTR but not a reworked retelling in the way Sword is.
Given LotR is cited as the first of modern epic fantasy, and obviously created a particular fantasy boom, it's not hard to look at most post-LotR fantasy settings as "ripping it off"; it's so often too easy to confuse plagiarism and inspiration. Sometimes an idea is so great that one wants to continue it, and can't really change that concept without ruining it. Other times, it's obvious that a writer can't really come up with their own stuff, so they take something from someone else in the hopes that it will make their stuff immediately better. At the same time, one could be cynical and cite all the ways in which Tolkien's setting just "plagiarizes" prior fantasy stories and stands apart by way of being the biggest epic at that point; others already wrote of human heroes, dark lords, elves, dwarves, etc., but he set it upon the grandest stage. It all comes down to the individual and what they want to see. If we want to like something, we will and will forgive any point that seems derivative or otherwise lackluster; if we want to dislike something, we will and we'll condemn every petty thing we can find, even elements that might be good.
@@frutrace This is true. But in many ways 2 and 3 just retell 1. So though they are less derivative they still are. I preferred the magic kingdom for sale series it was definitely unique and his own thing. Knight of the Word was great and its ending pretty much redeemed all of shinara. The original trilogy might be derivative but the whole series is it's own thing now.
@@robertblume2951 Yes, Brooks eventually took the LOTR training wheels off and went his own way. After the derivative first series, Magic Kingdom was definitely a breath of fresh air that I totally enjoyed.
As to your second point, I thought the great thing about WoT was that it was a commentary on heroic narratives. The characters think about how they're not heroes all the time, because things aren't so easy. In The Shadow Rising, Rand even thinks "In stories everyone just goes along with the hero. Someone says 'Behold!' And the story is over." This metafictional aspect is really what got me. That's what The Wheel of Time is about at its core.
I also like how the boys are constantly wishing they were as good with girls as the other two are whereas they feel they themselves do not have a clue. I have found that to be overwhelmingly true. We look at others and think my goodness I wish I had it all together and clear like they do only to find in future times that they weer looking at us and thinking the same thing. I think most truely heroic people often think of others as the heroes and do not realise the impact they themselves are having and Jordan caught this reality in the thoughts of his protagonists.
One thing I've noticed immediately, reading the entire series through in one large pandemic go at it - The Brandon Sanderson volumes were the only ones in which I caught myself laughing loudly at Telmanes and Mat. There were a couple of smirks in the earlier books but the last three had some actual moments of true levity amongst the impending doom...and a bit less scenery (Jordan would write 5 pages of scenery and you could picture everything in the minds eye as intended; Sanderson let peoples imagination take charge of much more of the landscapes and so forth.
I started on Daniel’s recommendation and am halfway through book two now- I love it, but a lot of things people say are making me nervous to keep going. Particularly, I love Perrin but he seems to get a good deal of hate, so I’m worried about his future 😅
To an extent ignore what other poeple think and focus on what you think/feel. I love Perrin and I love what Jordan does with him. A lot of people are frustrated with Perrin because they want him to make decisions they would make or they want him to make rather than decisions that make sense with his established character and events in his life. I love Galad... and people say NO you can't! He's SO whatever. I have happily learned to enjoy the books for my own reading of them. I heartily suggest the same to you. You can enjoy this series as much as you want to.
Eh not really. Everyone is already somewhat introduced to fantasy through LotR, Harry Potter, Disney movies etc. I jumped into reading fantasy with Malazan and I had no issues. As long as you are not a kid you are good to go.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 funny you say that, I was introduced to this series before harry potter and lotr because my mom had the entire series of this and didnt have copies of those due to a fire in their storage unit.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 With the malazan series???, Wow. The amount of main and side characters are a lot and I think it's the most so far I've encountered.
As we get closer to the show, a lot more "I don't like it/it's actively bad" posts keep popping up on reddit and other places. As something grows in popularity there will always be people ready to tear it down.
It's reddit. Reddit solely exists to ruin the things you love, and tear the world apart. The toxicity on reddit is so vile that it makes nuclear fallout seem like sunshine and daisies.
I'm going to say one controversial thing: The Wheel of Time has a terrible editing. If well edited, this series could've been great, cut off repetition, cut off a lot of unnecessary things, cut off 50% of quotes involving men, cut of unnecessary description and these books will become *readable* I say this as someone who loves description but was bored to death by those in WoT because they're too similar to be interesting. Also, another unpopular opinion, WoT doesn't earn it's 14 books. After reading book 3 I felt it could've been one with 2, the same can be said to books 8-10, those could've been one book. This series is unnecessarily long and for people struggling with books in the beginning, knowing that there will be yet a slog to come and then the promise of 4 great books after it is far from encouraging. I myself lost interest after book 3, eventually got back to it and I really liked it, but it wasn't a pleasant experience for a long period because of factors already mentioned. We have women›men, which makes sense in the world, but the way it is portrayed is unreadable. We have whiny characters that are resistant, which makes sense, but all of them react in the same unreadable way.
I agree with a lot of this. Although as someone who read them as they came out (instead of all at once after it was finished). At the time the repetition sometimes acted as a reminder, lol.
I found only CoT & WH a drag. Before and after those books the series is quite good Also the series is quite close to real life ... uniting the world to a common cause is tough because people will be petty & selfish ... more so true today
without a lot of the stuff you deem unreadable the world in hindsight would not feel nearly as lived in or real. there is some repetition that is to much if read one after the other but thats not how it was released andmade sense to have some recaps when there were 2 years or longer gaps between books
The one thing that stood out to me when I reread it when the series was finished, is how much of the material that felt like somewhat chugging filler material the first time, especially through the ~6th-9th books or so, now was clearly and visibly strong foreshadowing and setup because I knew what it was building towards. And that each scene was deliberately moving things forward, even if they weren't in the most decisive or dynamic ways possible. It made the books a lot better on a second read-through. (as someone who liked the books thoroughly on a first read as-well), because a lot of what felt stagnant the first time felt like it progressed the story meaningfully the second.
I'm not new to fantasy and WoT has always come up as a recommendation for my TBR pile. I finally picked up the first 5 books this month and I am looking forward to getting stuck into them, flaws and all! Subscribing to this channel was the nudge that finally made me take the plunge. Thank you :)
@@Trisjack20 it has been suggested that doing a read-a-long is helpful. I wondered if there were any good podcasts or youtube vlogs that I could read along with. I'm nervous about googling a search incase a spoiler pops up. I have just started EOTW and thought it might be a fun thing. I have been listening to Kingslingers podcast about the Dark Tower series and I think something similar would be great for this series. Any recommendations possibly?
@@loraines9626 Sadly not directly. Though there is the TOR readlong www.tor.com/series/reading-the-wheel-of-time/ Which is really interesting. The comments sections are pretty good at indicating if the comment includes spoilers. I am sure there will be some you tube full readalongs with commentary etc but you are definitely wise to not just start typing Perrin, Rand or Mat into Google. You will be spoiled.... for sure. However if you get involved in WOT fan communities they tend to be fantastic at having sections which avoid spoilers and the people them selves delight in NOT spoiling the books for you. I would love to chat any time you want to talk WOT. Feel free to msg me or if you have mates who have read the series. It definitely adds something to the books to share your excitement, interest and ideas with someone else enthusiastic and who can relate as you go through. trisjack20@gmail.com if you ever feel like sharing a WOT chat on some of what you have read. Have a great time of it.
@@Trisjack20 cool, I will check the tor link out, thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has read this series so I may just take you up on your offer! At the time of typing I am on chapter 16 of EOTW and I am really enjoying it.
@@loraines9626 Absolutely brilliant. I am excited to hear about which characters you like... or not and what you think might happen from what you have read so far. Any cool moments or bits of dialogue you have loved. Seriously it is pure enjoyment for me to talk about books I love. I promise to be very careful of spoiling anything.
Thanks for the video - I don’t read much fantasy but during this lockdown I have begun this series - currently on book 4. I chose it after watching one of your previous videos. I am definitely enjoying the series - its scope and the time it takes over details is a refreshing change of pace from my regular 300-400 page novels. I also have the audio books and am dipping into them when out walking/ running although I often find I am reading sections I have listened to. Anyway thanks again for your videos.
Wheel of time and stormlight archive definitely hit the mark for me on character development and intense cultural clashes. I love that kind of stuff and totally agree with how you've related it to current events. To me WOT can potentially be a mirror for how we are in the real world both culturally and personally. But I agree, not a starter series and it can be seriously tedious! WOT was my second series after LOTR and I was lucky to have grown up with it being released and the novelty of each new book drove me on!
The simple answer that works for all media is this: Nothing is perfect. It's okay to acknowledge problems, but don't focus on them. Instead, enjoy what is done right and well.
I think Stormlight also does the world uniting against a common enemy problem quite well as well. It shows how even though they want to fight this common enemy, they are still obsessed by personal gain and greed.
6:13 this the exact problem I had when I was watching your "why you should read wheel of time" video. Watching this channel was the first time I really heard of WoT, and of course I was interested. But then whenever I finally heard the many flaws of the books _(fourteen_ books, of which many seem to agree could have been ten or eleven instead because there is a _three book slog._ Many consider the female characters to not be well written or enjoyable, and as a fast reader, repeated descriptions would be incredibly annoying. Etc.) I was immediately turned off. But I gave the video a shot to see what things might not have been said before, and I didn't like it. The specific thing that makes me mention this is how you said that it basically is the foundation of modern fantasy like Tolkien is for classic, and it is amazing to see the roots from which modern fantasy grew from. What's really weird for me is that I'm an archaeologist. I LOVE seeing how various parts of society progressed. But I do not care for it at all in books. If it's not enjoyable to me on its own right, I'm not going to read it like I'm on a dig looking for artifacts. While Wheel of Time may have done it first, it definitely has been built upon and refined since. Sorry for the essay. Basically, it's not for me and that's why. I love fantasy, but I very much doubt I will ever read the Wheel of Time.
I have read the books (yes of all of them) and share a lot of the criticisms you point out so eloquently. Going of your "essay" i would sugest picking up something else
I just finished the eye of the world and honestly what took me out of it a little is the over description. I love the story but I came from reading Stormlight archives and I was expecting to read the book with the same enthusiasm but in some instances it just felt like a chore trying to read through it. Though those moments were small, it still made the reading experience a little tedious in those moments. And it’s the reason why it took so long for me to finish reading it, those long moment made it difficult to be motivated and want to read on.
Literally about to start The Eye of the World this instant, basically after watching a lot of your videos I finally decided to dive in, wish me luck! ;)
@@jachyra4 Hey, couldn´t get into it, but it was probably due to the fact that I was sort of burnt out on fantasy from doing the whole Witcher series in like a month. Will probably give it a go again at some point though.
@@fernandobujaidar haha me too, after watching daniel for so long, loving all of brandon sandersons work and seeing that he ranks them both very highly i've tried to get into it to, and its kind of fine? I dont really feel strongly for or against it either way. Pretty much all of the characters annoy me so I'm not really rooting for anyone (i just finished book 3, i think Matt is the only one i kind of have a soft spot for now)
I am in book 5 of Wheel and love it. What confuses me is that right before starting it I read the 30+ books that is Terry Brooks Shannara which I also loved. Both are well written. Both start similarly to LOTR with the farm boy/chosen one, Gandolf-like figure, other races and creeping evil threatening the full universe of the book, but Shannara is hated and Wheel is loved.
When the 6th to 8th books came out we were utterly frustrated because the story went nowhere and we decided not to continue reading the rest which at the time were not yet published.
As someone who was an active fantasy reader when this came out, I was turned off by two things: The overwhelming push by people to read the series and the lack of anything catching for me to keep going. There is the old adage that if you push too much to get someone to do something, they are going to do the opposite. I always have to question why people enjoy it so much that they will go on a heretical purge (at the time of the first book's release, the WoT fans were not so kind and forgiving) to either convert or destroy. As someone who is defiant of heretical purges, I dug my heels in even more because of it. I am all good for people who love their art, but no one has to suffer because of it either. I read part of the first book and then picked up the WoT OGL D20 book to get the best primer. To say I was underwhelmed is probably the most respectful thing I could say. The story didn't hook me in the slightest and the game book, while great at giving people a better look at the world and a quick hit of lore, was not endearing. It was just another world in a long line of worlds that didn't set itself apart too much. I think that was my big issue with everything (other than heretical purges) is nothing set the world apart. I have vampires who create their own world from their misery, I have dragon riders fighting draconians to stop the Cataclysm. I have Lord Soth. I have fractional worlds with intrigue on what happened. WoT was just there. It was politics and policies from a one-sided view that didn't really give full weight to the actual world itself. Sure, I stopped at one book (and his death really demotivated me to pick anything else up because I am anti-Sanderson) and used the gaming supplement as a primer, but that is far better than trying to go through 15 books to find one book's worth of morsels to tide me over. I don't have much time left on this planet, I have to manage my time personally.
I started the wheel of time at age 10, years ago it was a birthday gift from my older brother. It wasn't just the first Fantasy series I read, the Eye of the World was the first non-children's book I ever read. Honestly waiting for each book to come out, rereading the series just in time for the next book and then devouring it was a real defining part of growing up for me. But I also almost never recommend it to anyone, because it is such an investment.
As someone who fell off the series by book 5, it’s really nice to see Daniel addressing the cons that (I my experienced) outweighed the pros. Keep it up!
The problem with really long series is that any major problems along the way will derail the entire thing. It doesn't matter how good the series is overall, because even a single book or even a bad chapter can cause someone to drop the series. It isn't a serial, so it isn't like you can skip one book you don't like, and just continue it later on.
Yes. I started the WOT within a few days of the first publication of The Eye of the World. The first book was very good, the second book continued to show great promise (with a few concerns), and by the fourth book I knew I was going to be in for a rough ride to finish the series. Reading the WOT did change my reading habits after many decades of being a dedicated SF/Fantasy reader. I swore off starting any series until the author finishes it. I've managed to keep that promise to myself for about 80% of the time.
Every time I hear this man talk about Wheel of Time, it makes me want to give it another shot. But then I read half a book and I just feel eh. I hope Daniel keeps pumping out more of these videos till I accidentally finish the series.
The key word for enjoying this series is patience. Lots and lots of patience. Jordan holds up every answer as much as he can, answering one question and sprouting 100 more. I have the three final books by Sanderson, which they say the pace is best. But until book eleven I'm enjoying the story a lot!, And trying to put my its faults aside since it's known that the pay-off is the best
I made it halfway through the series and my reaction was much the same. I wanted to see where everything was going and how it all wrapped up, but my frustration with the series was standing in the way. Eventually I did get through it, though. The solution that worked for me? Listening to the audiobooks. It's much easier to handle when you aren't required to devote your full attention to it.
For me, the audiobooks saved it. I started struggling as early as book 5 and made the switch to audio since book 6. Listening while driving or cleaning made even the drag bearable. I'm in AMoL now and don't regret a minute spent with this series.
Listen to the audiobooks and skip through some of the more annoying parts. But if you're struggeling this early in the series... might be better to just read something else.
"Lews Therin I'm going to spend the first three books teabagging you every time you go to sleep and there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME." -Moridin/Ishamael
I'm only on book three now, The Dragon Reborn, and I can already tell I'm going to have a hard time making myself get through the rest of the series. I'm just not feeling super invested. I can't put my finger on why. I only know that with some books, when a tense moment is happening I have to cover the bottom of the page (except for the line I'm reading) to keep my eyes from skipping down to see how things turn out, and I feel truly concerned for the fates of the characters. I don't feel any of that with this series - or haven't yet, anyway. When I try to remind myself to pick it up and read a few chapters I find other things to do instead. And I already want someone to cut Nynaeve's damn braid off, lol.
In the end only you know you. Though each book is its own thing and certainly not all of the 14 books are the same, RJ does keep a similar writing style throughout. His focuses do not massively change, so if you are finding it does not grip you then feel free to try something different with your reading time. In contrast to the other commenter I tried reading Malazan and pushed through 8 books only to find myself still struggling to care about these characters. I still have about half of Crippled God to go (The final book) and I cannot summon up the desire to give it those final hours. Whereas 'for me' I have read WOT straight through 5 times (One full time with each new release). My point being it is a great series but if you have done three books and you are not enjoying it then defeintely don't feel bound to finish it. Read something you enjoy more or go write something you enjoy. However, if you do stick with it let me know what you think of Book 4 because I (And this is quite a popoular opinion in the fandom) would say book 4 is in the best three books of the entire series and it would be interesting to see if you felt engeged by it.
Dude, if you don't like it by book 3, quit right now. You'll be glad that you did. I really didn't like aspects of book 1, but thought it showed promise and that the characters would develop and mature as they progressed. I didn't like most of books 2 and 3, but everyone kept saying it got better. I finally quit when I only had about 30 pages left of book 4 because I didn't care for or actively disliked most of the characters, the pacing is laboriously slow (barely anything has happened 4 books and 3,000 pages later) and any character or power growth is extremely slow.
I didn't even like the first book cause I found it excruciatingly boring. I only finished it and continued reading cause if a deal I had going with a friend. Thought the next book was better, but not by enough, read up to half-way through book 8 before saying "screw it, it's not worth it." I realize this is coming realky late and you probably made your decision one way or another by now, but for anyone in a simlar situation who's reading through comments for some advice, here's mine: give it up. If you don't enjoy book 2 you won't enjoy the rest. While it might have its moments, they are much too few and far between to be worth your time.
Honestly, from someone who's been thinking about reading The Wheel of Time, it sounds like majority of its problems would be fixed if it was simply rewritten. The only problems I've ever seen people repeatedly bring up are the overwhelming amount of exposition dumps, character descriptions, repetitions of said explanations, etc. That all sounds like it could be fixed with some better editing. The only real criticism I see of the story, that personally scares me, is how unbearable the female characters.
Many of the male characters are also unbearable. And the most unbearable of all is the interactions between the male and female characters. Jordan had a somewhat, shall we say, dated framework on gender.
I read it again as an adult and my views completely flipped from when I was younger. I was shocked to find out I really didn't love it as an adult. But my main criticism that deeply annoyed and bothered me was the aggressive determinism. I don't really love determinism as a philosophy, and I didn't love that anyone who rebelled against the repeating of fate by the Wheel is inherently coded as "evil". I could go on but tldr, I don't like a determinist narrative because it strips agency away from the main characters and I end up asking "why did any of this matter if it was always gonna end this way?"
Dude nobody else said that on a comment that I have read. I enjoyed reading it but at the end I’m like this is kinda dumb because literally nothing matters anyways
I'm only on book 6, so I can't really say whether that bothers me yet or not, but I do say that it bothers me in the romantic sense. Two girls pining for Rand, and arguably because they know they'll both end up with him because of a vision. So is it truly set in stone, or is it a self fulfilling prophecy? I wouldn't mind the vision if it didn't seem like Min just fell for Rand just like that, with little interaction up to this book (book 6) at least. Either way, I definitely think romance is a huge weak point in this series in general.
I've only hit book 2 but I feel the exact same about determinism. I'm really enjoying the series so far but those points tick me off, where the Wheel turns and things happen. We can't change that, so might as well just deal with it. This is probably the only time I'll ever say this but I agree with Daenerys. We need to break the wheel (albeit we use that a bit differently). I mean this is what happened with Naruto. *Spoiler for Naruto jic* He spends the entire series getting acknowledged by those who denied him. He conquers hatred and wins both bc he's strong and bc he's the gutsy ninja who'll never give up. But, at the end, it's revealed that he's actually just the reincarnation of Ashura Otsutsuki, someone who was weaker but became strong because of his heart. It was his destiny to be in a rivalry and comradeship with Sasuke, the reincarnation of Indra Otsutsuki. I mean Indra/Sasuke in and of itself is more destiny at work, where he must start to have negative feelings and hate his opposite. To be filled with hatred and the darkness as opposed to his counterpoints light and hope. All of his work, his drive, his unabashed desire to help, it was all just what the reincarnation cycle was leading to. Don't get me wrong, I love Naruto and this is a very simplistic take on determinism but still.
@@realBlueMoonMusic No it wasn't. Please actually read Naruto, because Naruto is not Ashura's reincarnate like Aang is the Avatar or Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Naruto is not Ashura and Ashura doesn't influence him or other incarnates. How I know this? Because Hashirama failed and Ashura failed.
@@vrinkee that was what eventually made me drop the series. There was so much drama about the love triangles and petty power grabs in the middle-end of the series, and I realize that was the point, but after a while I was kind of like, can we please just fight the bad guys soon? And maybe it was because it was realistic, but one of the main reasons I read fantasy is escapism, and maybe the bitterness and fighting over nothing was too much like real life for me.
I love the series, but my biggest complaint has always been the forsaken. They were built up so much and just turned out to be monumental letdowns for the most part.
Short answer is that the series started off so perfectly and then fell off the rails before it got to the halfway point. I will re-read the first six or seven volumes at some point, but that’s it.
Before watching the video, I can say that I have read WoT and loved it BUT there are many problems in the series. I think the author or his editor should have taken more time to edit the books. There is far too much filler, cut 2-300 pages per book and that would give a much better series.
200 - 300 pages from each book? That would reduce the total page count by about 40%. Do you honestly think the series would be better at 60% of its current length? Some books could certainly be cut down by that much. Others you _might_ be able to reduce by 50 pages. Absolutely no way in hell could you cut an average of 250 pages from each book.
@@frocat5163 2-300 is just a number. I didn't actually count it and it is beyond the point. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot of superfluous fluff. I still loved the series.
Always great to catch your impressions of writing and the world! As an older (OK, a LOT older) guy, I find it refreshing to see a younger take that is thoughtful, engaging and fun to watch and hear.
WoT is like the TV series The Wire, where you have to watch from the beginning to understand the giant, epic, sprawling story. WoT is not just a 14-book series but you actually have to read all 14 books in order to follow the story. You can’t start in the middle, and you won’t be satisfied if you stop anywhere but book 14. It’s not episodic, it’s one massive, massive book written in 14 volumes (just like The Lord of the Rings is not really a trilogy but one massive book in three volumes). There are very few stories that require that level of commitment with good reason, but when it works, even if it has glaring flaws, it’s amazing.
@@timswabb When did I say it was ever published as six volumes? I said it's six books and gave you a winky face. Are you that unfamiliar with internet etiquette, or are you trying to be a douche?
I think the quality of the fist books descend rapidly by the 8th book or so. I’m virtually addicted to the first book, most of the earliest ones are mostly excellent and Sanderson wraps the story well considering his time constraints though.
I love cosmere books, but mistborn is not where I would start. At least not the initial series. Maybe the 2nd one. The first one is just so HEAVY. Great, but it weighs on the reader.
@@rfjohnson69 I suppose if you’re not an avid reader. Mistborn can be heavy, but in terms of fantasy I’d say it’s in the lighter end of the spectrum. Stormlight itself is more heavy, albeit a little easier to read, and books like wheel of time are like black holes comparatively.
I’m so surprised that no one address how bad Jordan writes interactions between the characters. It’s not that this series has aged or anything but just that basic fact that it’s poor on the fundamentals. I really love large epics and have no trouble with long book or that the author use time to describe the world for you. I was looking forward to the WOT. But I have a huge problem with the “men VS women”, and everyone else are stupid, smoothing skirts, and basically a million of highly unrealistic behaviour to situations. I read 6 books. And over and over I thought that maybe it’s just this character that act really strange, or that they are so young, but in the end I just don’t believe Jordan left the house much... and don’t like women... the female characters are terrible. Only Min gives you some “water and shade”. Remember that you don’t have to read it just because it’s well know. And it is so many great books out there. I wish I remembered 5 books ago.
Same... I'm reading book 4 right now and I am rolling my eyes so much because of it. I really want to like these woman but they are soo petty it's insufferable. Even the relationships they have together are terrible. The only times they are not bickering among themselves is when they 'unite' against men. I love the story but god is this annoying. Also the boys are supposed to be childhood bestfriends but they barely talk to eachother! They all seem like strangers.
If I remember correctly, Jordan believed more women should act like the female characters because that was "Empowering" when really they were just bitches imo. Never got through book 6, Lords of Chaos because it seems the girls just don't want to learn and grow and just deride the guys over every little thing. The guys complain, yeah, but they're still doing things and from what i remember they at least acknowledged when they fucked up to a point. The guys also had it a lot harder imo, mostly because of Rand and Matt. Rand had the world gunning for him trying to essentially lobotomize his soul all while feeling the taint of the Dark One's power on the Male half of Magic and dealing with being the Dragon Reborn and all the weight that entails while also rediscovering the male half of magic's secrets and uses. Matt had all his lifetimes shoved into his head, was leading an army at 16/17 and everyone kept giving him shit over it because it drove him to drink and gamble in his very little free time to try and unwind while on a constant march. Perrin just kinda disappeared for a while, but he's the only male character I can recall that got a less terrible time of things. The girls just didn't have to deal with consequences of their actions by the time I quit. Princess got to mess with the Reincarnation cycle of a heroine who had ALWAYS reincarnated with her One True Love by doing things she was explicitly told not to and the heroine just kinda shrugged it off and agreed to be her bodyguard. Egewene thought that because she ended up being the leader of the Aes Saide (God how I hate them) after their political fuckery and the schism with the Red/Black sect she knew best and was automatically right moreso than before she already did and refused to listen to anyone who actually knew what they were talking about while expecting everyone to just do as she said. I just... I gave up at that point. I think I got through about half of Lords of Chaos, and just had to give up because I couldn't stand the characters any longer. While the guy characters can be a little stubborn, yes, they have no real reason to trust or listen to the female characters. I've never seen any female characters in any other media treated as badly by the supposed "Good Guys" as the female characters treat the men in this franchise. And we're constantly hit over the head with a hammer saying "This is good" over and over again by the female POV who keep saying the men are all idiots and layabouts who'd never get anything done if not for the "Gentle guidance of women" when the menfolk are going around trying to build an army for the end times in the wilderness and Rand having to play politics in a world that hates him (And the Aes Saide who basically bound her soul to his because she thought she had the right to control him about made me throw the book out the car window when I read it because no one acknowledges it as "Wrong" beyond other characters thinking "They have the right to him") and wants to kill him/preform invasive soul surgery (That usually leads to the men who get caught committing suicide through sheer soul devestating depression if they're not constantly watched and forcibly taken care of while imprisoned in the Tower) before he goes mad and Channels insane power and breaks the world again while he's trying to get to the best ending that necessitated his own death and saves literally everyone and everything forever while the women folk are going about doing things that they're told not to do, fucking up the cycle of reincarnation for people and sipping tea while they scheme how to get everyone subservient to them again even as the schism rages on and they're forced out to an outpost that allows them to continue on as if nothing but a small decrease in comfort happened.
I’m half way through my first reading. Loving the series and my only reoccurring criticism is the portrait of women. Having a large cast that includes a representative number of women made WOT, I assume, a step forward for its time. However, the way that women are almost always described in reference to their attractiveness, while men much less so, the portrayal of many romantic relationships and the weird use of ‘she crossed her arms under her breasts’ at least once a chapter is just grating.
For most of my life, the only thing I've known about WoT was braid tugging, folding of arms under breasts, and pages to describing dresses. I'm about ready to actually start reading it now and I am just getting myself ready for "women are the superior sex, but let's still focus on their hair and shapes". Like, yes, we are amazing to look at... But fellas... jeez... stop...
7:48 As a person who's only prior exposure to fantasy literature before reading 'The Wheel of Time' was the obscure 'The Keys to the Kingdom' series, I fully agree with this statement.
Great video, and commentary on the series. I have just finished reading WOT (yes, all of the books) last month, and I agree with many of the criticisms. Some of the story lines in the middle are quite weak and pulling one's hair and straightening clothes seems to be talked about way too much. I would also say that even the weakest of the books compare pretty well to many other of my favorite books, and are enjoyable to read. This series brought me back to Fantasy and to many other enjoyable series, but none can compare to the breadth and depth of WOT.
Good convo about weighing the pros and cons of WOT. I’m very mixed on my view of it. I do appreciate it for breaking ground with typical fantasy tropes. I will say though, once I read Dune, I realized a lot of credit I gave WOT Dune covered first.
I remember the boards on Dragonmount before Knife of Dreams came out. This series has been picked apart to death and beyond (and is awesome) (minus certain parts)
Being there as they were released was something else. The sheer theory crafting was insane! one of the things I am enjoying about Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is reading it during its delivery.
I grew up reading Westerns and Frontier books from my grandparents. I tried to read The Hobbit in elementary school and couldn't get through it. Them randomly i found Wheel of Time in the school library and checked it out, This was 1999ish. I immediately fell in love with the series and bridged over into Erragon and eventually scifi books like Dune or Starship Troopers. Fast forward i have gone back and read The Hobbit and even Lord of the Rings and Lion Witch and Wardobe series. Had it not been for WoT i wouldn't be reading anything other than Louis L'Amour, lol. I want a WoT tattoo but can't decide on what.
The pacing really kills you when you are on a chapter revolving around character or plot line you find dull or annoying. For (non-spoiler) instance, in the Knife of Dreams there are a few character plots that I just didn't care about or only cared about the resolution of BUT the Rand and Mat parts were so good and in anticipated so much (I read the plot thread graph) that I just powered through them. What I like about WoT is how it captures the completely different perspectives and goals of characters and this necessarily makes it so that you will empathize with certain characters more than others based on the way they see the world or their reasons for acting the way they do. So, for the shear length of these books and often wildly varying tones of each chapter you really have to be a marathon runner so to speak. If powering through (or skipping) parts you don't like doesn't appeal to you, you're just not going to like it. Same is true for a plethora of other reason, not everyone is going to like the same things you do, that's ok. There is such a wealth of different books that are going to appeal to different people, you don't have to force yourself to like anything. Furthermore, I do recommend the WoT audiobook series. For a marathon series such as WoT, you're just going to have more time throughout your day where you can listen to a book while doing something else, with a book you really have to devote entire chunks of time to reading and nothing else. Reading off and on really doesn't work for extremely long books (at least for me). Also, Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are the narrators, and they work is extraordinary.
That was a REALLY good point you brought up about everyone not uniting for a common cause, NOT because they don't agree, but because they don't agree on HOW to go about doing it. I think that right there is the biggest issue facing current society. I don't think most people on either side are "BAD" people who hate others. And I am getting tired of the generalizations from both sides that anyone who disagrees with them is a "HORRIBLE PERSON". I think that most people (not EVERYONE) tend to agree on many of the big moral issues we face. But the big fights, and the reason we can NEVER accomplish any lasting and significant societal change, are because we get hung up on the MEANS to achieve said change. So, in that regard, I think Jordan nailed it. Wheel of Time was ahead of it's time in depicting the timeless conflict we are still fighting (see what I did there... :-). I still don't enjoy WOT (just can't get into his writing style), but I respect his insight into human nature.
Maybe next time put the text in the front while your reading it. In case you ever do this format again. I find it a bit distracting trying to read along behind you and not being able to.
My personal opinion: "Malazan Book of the Fallen" > WoT WoT is like walking throug a country. Sometimes it is flat - sometimes you will have hills and theny ou reach the peak of mountains and have a grand view. - But a lot of flat walking. "Malazan Book of the Fallen" is like waking up in the Himmalaya and hoping not to die while wandering around confues and seeing extremly far in all some directions.
I've just recently started the Wheel of Time after having my friends recommend it to me for years, so far I'm enjoying it, though I'm only about 30% through The Eye Of The World.
For fantasy readers, there are several must read series. The Wheel of Time (of course) the Belgariad (and the Mallorian) by David Eddings. Dragon Riders of Pern by Anne McCafferey. The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson (yes, THAT Brandon Sanderson)
My biggest gripe with the series, was the ending. We never got to find out what happens after, in the new Era of peace (or did that peace actually work?). We just don't get any real conclusion to everything we've been following.
I know, I was expecting and looking forward to a 200 page epilogue and the lack of any kind of "this is what ended up happening" was really a bummer. I mean, did the Aiel wind up like Aviendha foresaw? I need to know
This is because Robert Jordan didn't believe in happy endings or that storylines just end. He didn't want everything to get wrapped up in a neat little bow and Brandon Sanderson tried to respect that. Doesn't mean it doesn't bug the crap out of me and I'm left just wanting more.
I love the series. My main criticism of the ending is the seanchan- there really isn’t a satisfactory conclusion here. These people needed to either be destroyed or be forced to restructure their society in a way that didn’t rely on slavery. Jordan was planning on writing additional books, I’m assuming to conclude this part of the story. I hope we get to read that story some day.
I actually like it that way. Yes the world is not perfect after the last battle. That is kind of how the world works, after one conflict, we start next one. take for example WW2. After we got the cold war instead.
The way I view it is, it's the polar opposite of one of its fantasy contemporaries (A Song of Ice and Fire). Where ASOIAF is grounded and real, WOT is focused on real characters doing fantastic things.
As a person who started WOT in 1992, my thought is: it started good, became wonderful, then the quality took a deep dive and ended with the decent-but-not-great Sanderson books. So, despite being one of the best fantasy series overall, it still fell short of expectations. It's a shame Jordan didn't follow his original plan and made a 6-7 books long series!
I got back into WoT when I found your chanel, finished and loved it. Found it a bit standard at the start but for me, I respect series that used a trope first or best, which is prevalent in WoT.
Someone else wrote in their comment that the main problem they had with the story is they've forgotten 90% of what happened in it, and I couldn't agree more. It's been a few years since I've read and the only impression it's really left on me is that the world of WoT is full of peoples and cultures who are 100% diametrically opposed to each other and will hold on to those differences with extreme dogmatism. The main characters somehow runs afoul of all of them. One other aside I remember is that there's an extremely important event that changes everything around book 7-8 I think (accomplished by Rand and Nynaeve) and neither them nor the ramifications are spoken of for the entire next book! Instead we get 500 pages of Aes Sedai politics, oh joy! Personally, I think the reason for not remembering much of it is that I felt untethered from the story, since I didn't have any character I felt particularly attached to. Maybe that has something to do with the wild culture clashes happening, I'm not sure. But contrast with something like ASoIaF, with very clearly defined, sympathetic characters; I can certainly recite a lot more of what happens in those books (and could do so before the TV-show as well)! Maybe the series is more suited for people who are world-building minded readers than character readers, if there is such a distinction. I can certainly not fault Robert Jordan for a world lacking complexity. But trying to get into the mind of all these peoples and cultures that think all of the others suck or are weird is just exhausting and draining to me.
That live stream will be happening this afternoon! Keep an eye out. :)
I’m a ready
Any idea what time? No worries if you can't give a guess, you're probably super busy
Whaa when!?
I have made this comment on the subreddit on more than one occasion. WOT needs a "Finished cut". I bought and read WOT this year, it was the majority of my January. Reading WOT as the books came out is VASTLY different to me devouring all 15 books in 20 days. The "Slog" is a huge part of this yes... I read 1-6 a book a day, and 12-15 a book a day. 7-11(not all of 11) is where it got to roughly 2 days per book and almost felt like a chore chewing through very large sections.
Outside of "The Slog", every book has the same "phrases" over and over and over. Those who have read know EXACTLY what I mean here. Reading it as it came out these things probably made you smile with nostalgia... but back to back to back... it just makes you sigh.
Now think about the show... think about the episode Daniel did talking about "What to remove", a lot of this could actually be removed. Elayne's "battle" for power... long, boring, pointless in general for the story, and irritates people with Elayne's reckless nature. Pretty much the entire "Bowl of WInds" arc could be removed and the story loses nothing... I am not saying these SHOULD be removed, just saying that a lot could be "cleaned up" without hurting the actual story.
I think if a 10-12 book "recut" of the series was released... it would do A LOT to bring a new audience. Many more people would be willing to pick it up, and some of those will become superfans and want to read the original cut on their next re-read. Me personally after doing it once... I absolutely loved the story but I don't think I could do a re-read... For me, once all the way through, watch the series... open a new chapter.
Random but would you ever consider redoing your WOT book summaries? Many of them spoiled events that happen later in the series for me :(
Sometimes, when WoT gets criticised, I imagine Daniel tugging on an imaginary braid.
Derpimus Maximus this is the one of the funniest things I’ve read
He needs to grow a mustache so he can knuckle it
So happy I got this reference
@@najeebhq I think you mean mustaches* :p
I only got this reference bc of Merphy Napiers video lol, Ive never even read the series and I understand this
Fantasy: Everyone agrees the Dark Lord is evil and must be destroyed. It's just that they don't agree on how.
Real Life: Everyone agrees there is a Dark Lord but no one agrees on WHO that Dark Lord is let alone how to destroy them.
Twitter has a new dark lord each week
@@Lazycandle Never thought it would be the NYT op-ed editor
@@Lazycandle And in my humble opinion, never the right one.
Though, unfortunately, there are some that think that the WHO is the Dark Lord...
Wow, I got a like from Daniel! My first, I believe!
The real antagonists were the 'friends' we made along the way
Yes
I'm halfway through Crown of Swords and the biggest problem I have is that everyone just jumps to their first assumptions, they never go like "Hm, maybe this person I've known all my life might not be such an ass, maybe I need a bit more info"
I’m halfway through Crossroads of Twilight and.......it gets worse
Not encouraging as I am just starting Crown of Swords.
@@robhines9119 I'm about mid way through KoD (second time through the series, though I never read past this one due to many of the issues that are very common criticisms). The scenery receives a much more detailed treatment than the characters IMO. You can read a scene and almost perfectly picture it in your mind, but the characters make decisions (even during internal dialog) that all seem to be geared toward driving conflict. None of them seem to accept any change at all except over the course of multiple books and all are incredibly unable to perform any self reflection at all. They almost universally see their own faults in others (especially people who are supposedly close!) while being completely oblivious to the same faults in themselves (and it really does not get better as of KoD!)
That and Nynaeve's braid pulling...there are probably a full 5 chapters that could be put together from that alone - maybe a short volume.....
@@yissnakklives8866 Agree 100%. Also i would like to add is that Mat and Perrin are REALLY crappy "friends" even knowing the difficult things Rand will have and is going through they just turn their backs on him for no reason even as early as book 2. And while im mid rant I just remembered, has any of them ever ask the other how they were?
Everybody in WoT does that. Like picture Gary Oldman in the Professional "Everybody!"
You know, one weird thing in WoT I’ve never seen mentioned is how it handles punishment. When a person is punished, it’s either scrubbing pots and a spanking or brutal torture and execution with nothing in between. And there’s a lot of spanking. It’s weird.
Yeah in between the spanking, people being tied up and stripped naked, and a lot of humiliation, I started wondering if the author had a specific fetish and once I saw it I could never unsee it.
@@nomisunrider6472 ._. ok...
@@nomisunrider6472 There is a lot of kind of "kink adjacent" language in his books. I dunno if its because he is slipping some of his own life into the story (intentionally or otherwise) or if he was using it for shock value. I kind of hope its the first, because the kink community doesn't need to be used for shock value, but in the 90's thats *absolutely* something fantasy authors were doing. Taking a half understood part of kink and exaggerating it to make a bad guy seem extra bad.
That's pretty realistic, though. Historically those were two of the three main forms of punishment (the third being fines). It was either a birching in town square, or an eye gouging. There really wasn't any 'in between'. The carceral state is a modern invention; a dungeon was either a temporary place to stash someone until they could be more permanently dealt with, or an oubliette for them to be lost in.
I think "hickory-stick therapy" was not uncommon, historically...
A lot of people just can't wrap their heads around liking something while also acknowledging and indeed criticizing its flaws. It's so often I get into a discussion with someone that thinks I hate the topic of discussion simply because I'm aware of its drawbacks lmao
This is so true.
And vice versa. I've gotten into a lot of discussions with people that think I'm blind to a film or book's flaws simply because I still like it in spite of its imperfections.
I think this is an obvious downside of making everything political. If you criticize, you must be against. If you praise, you must be for. There seems to be an infantilization of discussion being pushed out into the zeitgeist.
It's refreshing to hear a confirmed WoT fanboy say that a new fantasy reader should NOT start with WoT. Over on Facebook WoT fan groups the idea that you should recommend anything else first is considered heresy by some. In fact, I did a poll once because I was fairly sure a majority of the page's members had read nothing in the genre besides WoT and maybe, perhaps, Lord of the Rings, years after re-reading WoT for the tenth time, because they'd been told Jordan was inspired by it.
The poll indeed found that most of the page's members had read few, if any, other fantasy authors. If they had, it was Tolkien, Sanderson and maybe Hobb or someone who got compared to Jordan a lot. It went a long way to explaining why so many believe RJ was the greatest writer in the genre.
I love WoT (really, I do) but I don't even think RJ was the greatest fantasy writer of his day, let alone all time. He crafted an amazing story with a rich, developed world with a complete history...and spent five books dithering over minutiae that truly did not matter. Within his sprawling 14-book ramble was a truly great 6 or 7-book series struggling to get out.
As I put it on a message board a while back:
"If I had to compare writers I love to family members, then JRR Tolkien was my wise grandfather who'd truly lived and had a vivid way of talking to you about life and important matters. When he spoke, the room shut up and listened. George RR Martin is my Viet Nam-vet uncle, maybe with a bit of PTSD, who also likes to tell stories but you have to be careful what you ask him about, and who's listening when you do, because he won't hold back on gory details or profanity, but dangit if his stories aren't just as fascinating, if in a very different way.
Robert Jordan is that absent-minded college professor of an uncle who has a lot of knowledge in his head and some wisdom as well, and you often enjoy listen to him wax eloquent, even if he often forgets what he was talking about and goes off on tangents about stuff that doesn't matter, particularly recalling what women were wearing, only occasionally saying "but where was I?" and getting back to the point. By the time he finally remembers he was going somewhere with this story, the ending seems a tad underwhelming."
Oh boy am I asking for it with this.
Its kind of funny that Robert Jordan actually served in Vietnam and George R. R. Martin was a conscientious objector and you have it the other way around in your imagined family. Maybe you are putting the wrong traits into the people here, though i doubt any clear generalization could ever be made. you could maybe turn it around that Jordan is the war vet who has so many though memeories that his mind goes on tangents and the GRRM is the professor with such a vivid imagination that he goes into full war mode when telling about battles he never took part in. :D Personally i have read alot of fantasy and find Jordan to be one of the best ever in the genre, though i would never say someone is the best, cause tastes are different and someone cant be best at everything, if you forced me to give an asnwer i would say Tolkien for the world he build around his story, but i still think Jordan crafed a better story. Sanderson is better at magic systems than Jordan, Abercrombie is the master of morally gray heroes. I dont find GRRM a master of anything really, but he used to be a very good author. All good authors bring something to the table, some even invent new dishes while most just perfect the classics. After this long post, I will agree, WoT or even Lord of the Rings is not the place to start. My start was Narnia, that is a good place if you can stomac the religion being dealt, Harry Potter is the more modern version of the same type of start. For an adult reader i would say Abercrombie or Sanderson are far better starting places, also some of Tad Williams books (the ones that are not too slow).
EVERYBODY should read Hobbit/lotr first
And
Earthsea. Otherwise I dont recommend much
And Joe Abercrombie is that cool older cousin who smoked weed with you for the first time back in eighth grade.
I'd recommend Mistborn or Riftwar before Wheel of Time. Though I haven't read Riftwar in many years, so I might regret that!
@@timpeterjensen2364 Sanderson's dialogue CRUSHES Jordan. When Sanderson took over WoT, it was like "Oh, so this is how normal, realistic people talk. I had forgotten."
I really struggled to get through the books. There are massive chunks where you go from a great action sequence to a slow arduous crawl. Jordan describes every little detail of an Aes Sedai tea party, half the time these are character introductions so you feel you have to pay attention despite the painful pacing. For those who can get through these sequences, the rewards of the series are great!
I honestly think EVERYTHING is great except the over description. Like one sec we are seeing a monster and suddenly the character glances at the sky and we are told in two pages of how it looked,the climate of the area,the economy of the city,the family tree of the friend,how every brick in the house behind the monster is made etc etc.
But the characters,story,plot etc is greattt
for me, the problem is i choose to read book of the fallen first.
im not a super bookworm so ive stayed away from these 2 huge series. when i finally read them, i decided to read BoTF first and i loved it! that gave me some expectations on Wot that i felt unmet.
I guess you really have to like Robert's writing! if you like it it becomes a feature, if you don't it becomes a chore
I don't mind long descriptions, but they should be creative and detailed. Jordan describes taverns, for example, in a way that says "generic fantasy tavern", with nothing special about them. At one point, towards the end of the first book (which is as far as I got), he describes a suit of armor simply by cataloguing all the parts. Which is kind of like describing a car by telling you it had four wheels, windows, a chassis, etc. I mean, he tries to make the world come alive, so I give him props for that, it was clearly a labor of love (emphasis on "labor").
I thought the new amazon show made it more boring by adding all that, but it was actually the accurate parts
Given the 14,000 page count I feel like a lot of praise and criticism are very natural, its like 30+ normal books.
In german there are literally 37 books. THRITY SEVEN BOOKS! I am listening to the german audiobook and am at book 20. Just barely halfway through....
Daniel, you are the main reason I have even given this series a chance. That and I have a job where I spend a lot of time in a clean room and I'm allowed to wear headphones. So, 8 hours a day, I can dedicate to listening to audiobooks. I figured why not go through a massively long series like Wheel of Time? And it's probably only because of that that I have gotten as far as I have. I'm in the first quarter of book four and I'm struggling. I know this one is a personal favorite of yours so I'm here for a little help. I'm struggling with these characters. It seems as if the beginning of each book, at least the first half, starts with all the characters being stubborn just for the sake of being stubborn. The plot doesn't really move forward or come together until the last 20 pages. And that's when my excitement for this series really peaks. I start loving these characters because of the courage and growth that I'm seeing just in those 20 pages. Then the beginning of the next book happens and they seem to be right back where they were at the beginning of the previous book, being stubborn little s**** just for the sake of being stubborn. I don't like any of these characters and the one character that I do like gets s*** on constantly by these egotistical, self-centered, entitled Little children from The two Rivers. So please Daniel, help me. I love RJ's world building, the culture, I even love the exposition dumps where I get to learn more about the world as it becomes relevant. It felt like RJ took what annoyed me about Tolkien and made it amazing. So please help me because I really really want to like this series
The Wheel of Time world is a very broken world, largely because it is based on our world. And yes, pretty much every character is flawed in some way. Some of the best moments in the books are when the characters grow and mature and overcome those flaws. Without going into spoilers, Mat has some awesome character moments when he accepts the responsibility of being a leader. Nynaeve (sp?) has one of the greatest scenes in the books, and it is when she finally digs her head out of her butt and stops trying to prove how great she is (I'm being very vague to avoid spoilers), and one of the reasons it is so great is because of how much she had to go through to get there.
Yes, a lot of the characters are very stubborn. One take is that it is one of the first books to address mental trauma, and you realize how pretty much every character has gone through massive trauma. Some are more obvious than others.
It also shows how corrupt powerful government can be. Again, I don't want to go into details for spoiler reasons, but if you really think about it, every ajah in the White Tower has completely and utterly failed at their stated mission. And therefore many of Aes Sedai are not great people, because they have lost connection with their home (due to being in the white tower) and have no direction in the life (because their ajah has failed), but are also all powerful wizard beings. The only thing they can identify with is power, and therefore corruption.
Idk, I’d prob be pretty stubborn and not wanna do anything either if a hoard of giant man eating monsters ransacked my village because of ME on our big festival night.. or that the literal devil who wants to destroy the world wants me, specifically, and all my closest friends dead, and is sending all his monsters to do so. I think something that gets lost on readers is that these kids are exactly that. Kids. They’re all about 16. Were you not a stubborn ass at 16 without the devil chasing you and your friends?
All jokes aside, this series is beloved because the people who take the time to finish it get to grow with these characters. We’ve all hated one or more of them throughout the series, but their development is some of the greatest writing ever done. It has its faults, and there are many, it eclipses 14,000 pages, but it is genuinely, in my opinion, the greatest fantasy story ever told, ever.
Ps, it’s a commitment, but give it till Dumais wells.
I had an odd experience with the series growing up; online, anywhere I looked basically everyone hated the series with a burning passion and had many harsh words about the author. Up until the author died, then suddenly everyone loved the series.
Yeah, it's the same in the music world.
"Don't start Fantasy with the Wheel of Time"
Well six books in, I ain't stopping
Might as well finish at that point.
I for one, am happy you've enjoyed it enough to continue. Myself and the author of this vid, have similar viewpoints, Starting WOT as first Fantasy read is a gamble. You won, most don't, and it can turn them off to listening to other great recommendations as a result of it.
Yep I didn’t notice many of the probs that people where talking about. Sometimes it was repetitive with language and alittle slow When Robert Jordan was fucking dying but that’s understandable
Hang in there when it gets slow, it’s one of the only series that has a amazing ending
My 1st series was Harry Potter. 2nd was the sword of truth by Terry goodkind. 3rd mistborn Brandon Sanderson. 4th Wheel of time.
Can anyone suggest something up my alley? I was thinking about drzzit
I think that Robert Jordan wanted to show just how life happens all at once, like the battle descriptions, the personal entanglements, and the struggles with rallying all the peoples to a singular cause. The very long descriptive segments add a pause of reflection. A lot like real life.
I’ve been trying to get my brother to read Wheel of Time forever. The other day as I was rhapsodizing about it, he asked my why I wanted him to read it when I complained about it so much (which I apparently do, though I never really thought about it) and I honestly had no idea what to tell him. I have more criticisms for WoT that most people do, especially more than most fans. I don’t really even like the ending that much. There’s just something about it that I can’t quite put my finger on which, despite the fact that when asked about any specific aspect of the book I could tell exactly what’s wrong with it, makes it one if my favorites. I guess it’s just an example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
Sarah Clayton Yes. That all CAPS ending: Sucked!
Something something love makes you spend enough time enjoying something to find all the flaws in its beautiful whole, in which those flaws stand out even more
Its about the journey not the destination
Part of what I love about wheel of time is discussing it with others so since there is a lot to criticize, that means there is a lot to discuss.
perfect.
Hot take: WOT reads like a shounen anime, complete with power creep and filler arcs (most of WH)
As a new reader to WoT, I totally agree
And power levels.
You just pointed out why I could not finish it
I hate filler arcs BS in anime too
This is spot on. I always figured that instead of a live action series, WOT should have been made into an animated series.
I was having this feeling lately to. I really like the "trope" (if you would call it that) of all the power of humanity united against a big bad. You can see this in sci-fi and mainly in anime. But honestly I find it really depresing that all those media properties that showed me all humanity would unite against a comon enemy were wrong.
That's why it's fantasy
Indeed. Just look at the world's response to corona virus. Most countries care only about their own people and hoard supplies and outbid each other. And then there are total outliers like Sweden of all countries who does not isolate its people by orders, just kindly recommends. Not so great strategy.
@@lupaecainis Yeah, imagine respecting your people's human rights. Terrible idea.
@@lupaecainis As a UK resident, I wish I lived in a country where the government cared about it's own people.
@@derpimusmaximus8815 Maybe I am just to cynical now. But there isn't a country like that.
I always thought it was clear that generally people enjoy the first few books because the cast of characters is contained a lot better. Then people don't love how anyone that gets run into (especially early) suddenly becomes a mainish character so we get to hear about their at time tangential adventures that take attention away from the main 3-4 story lines. I personally like this; its sort of like perspective creep instead of plot creep... but in conversations with people through the years it seems to be a big turn off for some people.
Funny enough, for me the WoT's issues have less to do with aging and the cultural zeitgeist of the time and more to do with the fact that, after reading it, I couldn't remember half of what had happened. I've read other series and have a much better recollection going into the 7th/8th book than I did going into the 3rd book of this series.
read it again? itll only take like a year
@@robertmurry1442 not everyone wants to do that
Well that can be a good thing, if you enjoyed it, you may get the similar feeling to reading it for the first time. Should you decide to re-read it of course.
I have read the series several times. I know it well back to front but I had to reread it those several times.
Honestly, it took me many many rereads to get past like, book seven. I just got used to the fact I would never remember everything and that's fine. My advice is to just keep going and enjoying what you're reading anyway
"It's one of the few fantasy series that shows the struggles of trying to unite everyone to fight armageddon."
*laughs in Dalinar Kholin*
Life before Death, radiant.
Strength before weakness
I knew sanderson ripped of superior works
@@dantesinferno80 he also kind of wrote wheel of time.... some of it
@@Xepent yep...using other people's superior works ;)
This reminds me of an exchange I had at a writer's workshop a while back. I was exchanging inspirations with another attendee & brought up The Wheel of Time. She said she'd heard good things about it, but most of the recommendations came from bad friends-turned-bullies in high school.
I remember telling her something along the lines of "It was a good read for me, but don't feel pressured to pursue it. There are already more books out there than we can read on our lifetime. To waste it forcing yourself to read something with that baggage isn't worth it."
I do hope she got into the series, but I was trying to not be another pushing force. The last thing she probably wanted was being told "your bullies were right," & I didn't want to be associated with that crowd.
Weak
@@oliverhopkins8074 Don't worry. Take your time. Eat some food. Get a nap in if you have to. Eventually you'll build up the strength to write in full sentences.
@@IamMeHere2See alright here's the full version.
Your story sucks. Both characters are pathetic.
And they're shit books so why bother.
I can only assume this is your best attempt at white knighting
This is a very intellectually honest conversation - props!
I am one of those people. I started reading it in the 90’s then went back in the early 00’s, I just couldn’t motivate myself to keep going in Book 3. I respect it. Love the story and the epic endings, but man he loses me in the middle, and the story is about the journey not the destination.
At least you have made a decision and can enjoy other things :)
The thing that grates on me the hardest is that everyone in the series describes things the same way. Every single person uses multiple similes to describe everything, whether in conversation or in their internal monologues. It makes it feel like it's Robert Jordan telling what they are thinking and saying, instead of them naturally thinking and saying things.
I have always had a suspicion that a large part of the problems with WoT can be pointed at Harriet. Not that she was a bad editor, as she was already an experienced editor before meeting him, but as his wife, she was probably too involved throughout the writing process to be an *impartial* editor.
I was gonna disagree with you but you're kinda right. Your editor should be someone who can come and tell you "Look what you wrote here is horse shit, don't do this", and a wife might be reluctant to do that.
@@deaansugee I really think a more aggressive editor could have eliminated one book from between 5-10. Not just remove one book but trimming from all of them and make it one less book overall
@@deaansugee some spouses will definitely struggle with that, but I've met others who are much MORE willing to tell their partner they're full of shit without fear because of the mutual trust there
Idk enough about this specific situation to say tho
@@nibblitman One book? I've started the series because of this channel, and you could probably edit out about 3 books out of what I've read, and that's only 5 and a half books...
@@nibblitman you're probably right about that, but what editor or publisher is going to recommend that when they were best sellers and making lots of money by then?
Who else remembers when all this channel was was WoT? Most of the fan base had read all the books or was reading them. Now most of the comments on WoT videos are ‘I’m trying to decide if I should read WoT’. Which is great, read it
Yep. And for those that are hesitant about climbing that mountain, there is also audiobooks for it as well, with 2 very good narrators. I was able to listen while at work. Took a little less than a year to finish...I was renting the books from the library.
@@CosmicG777 Tackling the Dresden Files right now. Almost done with the first book, but I don't know how quickly I'll move on to the next. WoT is interesting because of its accolades and popularity, so I might give Eye of the World a shot. I'm most hesitant about the excessive descriptions I always hear about--how much time he spills into setting a physical scene or presenting a character's appearance. My favorite series are Stormlight Archive, Mistborn, and the Broken Earth Trilogy, so based on that first one, WoT should be up my alley.
@@davidf.farris6619 If u go the audiobooks route for WOT, the excessive descriptions is not as bad. It's like being involved in a game of Dungeons & Dragons and the story teller is setting the mood. It's fine, only really excessive if your the one reading it. Honestly, the excessive detail is it's curse but also a benefit. It paints a picture that u step into like ur there. Sure some authors would leave out some detail and let your imagination fill in the blanks, but when it's this descriptive, it warrants a sense of realism.
@@davidf.farris6619 Also, Dresden Files is great. Good picks. I listened to those on audiobooks as well which is funny because I discovered that the narrator for those books is the guy who played Spike, on the show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I got into this channel bc of Cosmere, but now I’m on book 5 of WoT bc of the recommendations on this channel. It’s great bc I know what you guys are talking abt now😂
I just started WoT on audible and am on book 4 now. I am loving it. I feel like having it read to me makes the slower parts easier to get through
Oh I can't stand the narrator's voice for Faile, though. I almost stopped reading the series because of their interactions in the first half of the book though only part of it was how snotty he makes her sound. I only got through it at all by reading Perrin's sections from the physical copy I have (I switch between audio and physical for the series)
Man I can’t imagine listening to the audiobooks. I loved reading WoT but I did so much skim reading, there would be times where I skipped several whole pages in a row if there was no dialogue.
I might try the audibooks one of these days. But there are so many other audibooks I want to buy/listen to.
Also, ever since I finished the series, I'm hesitant to read it again. I'm still sad/mad about the ending one of my favorite characters got.
l love the books, but the performers just don't do it justice
@@teluian Do you know why, on Audible, the first few books sound like they have a lower audio quality than the others?
I like the vids a lot. Anyone else? The casual format gives room to improvisation and organic pauses and it’s just a bit more laid back than, say, your Why You Should Read or Author Deep Dives. Keep these vids, they’re fun to watch!
Many feelings. So mixed. When I read Eye of the World it was like falling in love. By book 7 I realised that I wasn't having fun anymore, and actually I had probably stopped having fun about 2 whole books ago. I stopped reading and I'm glad I did. I feel like the series could have been really great if it were maybe a third as long. I wish somebody would edit the series down and release a 5 book version. I would read that.
I'm firmly convinced I would place it in one of my all time favorites on overall story. I agree with you that it would be much better as 5-6 books.
Agreed, maybe the tv show will fix those editing issues. I also stopped at book 5 lol, I wasn’t having fun anymore.
@@pedrobriceno926 It won't be a proper WoT TV show unless they first promise it will be finished in 1 season, but then instead of that, actually make 4 seasons and then hand it over to a different team to write the 5th and final season.
Alternately, it would be better served with an updated narrative structure by collecting the individual plot threads and POVS into their own novels to keep the story lines moving. It worked very well for Steven Erikson's Malazan Books of the Fallen, and given the similarity in size and scope, I think it would work for WoT
I agree with this! Stopped at Crown of Swords. Need a long break. I spoiled the series for myself, and I loved the whole day I spent trying to gather the story. It's an amazing story, and I liked the ending as I read a succinct version of it.
But, I could no longer read it. OMG, I blame that bitch Elaida.
How to start a never ending debate amongst WOT fans: ask them to pick which character is the most stubborn.
EDIT: my response
All valid choices in the replies, but what about Rand, Moiraine, Lan , Elayne, Aviendha, Siuan Sanche, Cadusane, any of the Aes sedai, Sorilea, any of the Aiel Wise Ones, etc.
My point is this: while I liked WOT well enough, it will never be on my top favorites list (and I have been reading fantasy since the 80’s), but the main reason is a flaw that I haven’t seen mentioned a lot in the usual long list of grievances. I didn’t mind the long descriptions, the food pornography, the abundance of characters, etc…What really bothered me is that for Jordan it seems that having character = being stubborn. This has a lot of consequences, so I’ll take only one. Most if not all of the romances felt fake to me, e.g., I could buy the Rand/Min romance, but with Elayne and Aviendha, I really don’t see why they would be in love, except if you accept the logic that “the more they fight the more they love each other deep down”. That is a bit cliche and can only work so far, at the very least there should be other moments when they show a deep connection too, and that was lacking (unless you confound that with having sex). In the end I can only see two justifications for their relation, lust or fate. You could put that all on a fate “from the heavens”, a passion one cannot escape (Rand being Ta’veren etc.) even if it has no reasons, but that feels cheap and is not a conception of love that I find very appealing or grown up. Overall their relation feels childish to an extent that their age and character development would not justify. Then again, however much I love the genre, it is true that a lot of fantasy series have a tendency to be somewhat childish about characters and relations.
But I don’t think that the age of the series can be used as an excuse. Two series that are on my top favorite list are the chronicles of Thomas Covenant and The Chronicles of Morgaine, both of which predate WOT. One of the big differences is that they have grown up characters with grown up relations.
Anyone who doesn't say Nynaeve is smoking crack. The woman is a goddamn brick wall from dialogue line #1
@@cellavb447 Nah I think it is Shai'tan. He is doomed to try and free himself forever and always fail, and yet he keeps doing the same thing.
I personally hated Egwain by the end of it and thought Nynaeve got so better and became likable.
In my WoT, Rand completely nukes the Seanchan and Tuon dies horribly. So with her out (dead), it's gonna have to be Egwene. She almost ruins everything
Is have to say Matt is pretty up there
Regarding your tweet, the one thing about the Wheel of Time that NOBODY understands easily is:
You have an easier time herding CATS than you do to try to get people to agree on how to wage war. Heck, look at war movies, and how impassioned they get about how they should run the plan, or to even run it in the first place!
And Jordan captures that so well. It also goes to show that Rand's Talent as Ta'veren can't even help him get everyone in line, and we spend more time in the books watching him bribe, cajole, force, or beg with people to go along with it, or even work together.
IT is also one of the reasons why I can't see what anyone would ever really want to be the "Hero" as they have to play overlord, babysitter, Guidance counselor, teacher and life coach to everyone just to get them to agree that "water is wet."
Now, for the first part: I will say form having read a LOT of fantasy, SciFi, et. that every long series has flaws, but at the same time, there can be something good in each.
HOWEVER...
And this is the biggest problem with reading in general: Writers are not perfect. True there are great ones out there like Jordan or Sanderson or Bujold or Weber, but each, while good, has their own flaws that could come form a million places, such as: Editor changes they don't always agree with, Editor changes they agree with, The character "got away from them" and they had a burst of inspiration then, after it settled they are like "I like it, but what the hell do I do now?" and one of my favorites: there was something about the scene they "needed" for plot, but they could never get subtly why they didn't like what they read, even though it is "good".
So with these few examples, you can probably guess there are myriad others that can cause a dissonance to the readers at times.
And for others; it is just "not their cup of tea" - I mean I like Green, but dislike Earl Grey, hot, but somoene else might like Black and hate Jasmine teas. You can't please everyone as a writer - you just have to try to keep things working as best as you can for the people that do like it - even if you add too much sugar to the "tea" at times.
I was a non-traditional college student ( i.e., started at 33 yrs ) when I and a friend shared a Japanese language class in '92 and both started reading the series. I continued thru the entire series, happily. You have no idea the shock I felt walking thru the bookstore and for the first time seeing an end-cap as a memorial to Jordan. Froze in my tracks and locked eyes with the nearest worker. She asked what was wrong. After explaining his loss I was so disappointed that we would never know the end. I followed the drama of finding the writer to carry the series to its conclusion. I felt Sanderson did an excellent job ( it also helped that he just can't say in two paragraphs what he writes in five pages, god bless 'im ).
Yes, the first experience of following six main characters carrying on five to six paths thru the story was difficult.
Yes, the host of secondary and tertiary level characters you had to keep track of, especially the ranks of morphing baddies, was mind numbing.
Yes, my head almost exploded when I read a long awaited book and found it to represent the same two week period running into a critical plot action at then end of the previous book. Yeah, it was two weeks for everyone, everywhere, and a "Where were you when JFK was shot?" kind of moment that locked all the paths to a single moment in time to kind of reorient the reader but, daaang it.
But, it was ahead of its time, kept you engaged, and always left you thirsty for the next episode. You can't really ask more for your money.
Your synopsis was well and honestly done.
My first fantasy series was WoT
But guess what
I'm still here. All healthy and lovin fantasy
exactly the whole thing depends on the person eye of the world is an easy read
I “may” have found Robert Jordan’s inspiration for Perrin. The Slavic god of the wild/warfare was named Perrin and also wielded an axe in battle. Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share.
Awesome!!
Andrew Bouleris I also remind myself Perrin is "slimmer" I guess than Mat with his bow. Too much LotR on the brain.
i think its Perrun and idk details abt his battle approach (im bulgarian, aka slavic, so i just know of him but i havent dug deep) but overall i think you might be onto something!
@@miad3559 Perrun and Thor, plus others mixed in. Perrin is the thunder God. His hammer Mah'alleinir (Mjölnir).
Matt is Odin with his two ravens Thought and Memory, his eyepatch, spear and hat. But also Matt is the Trickster, the Fox.
Rand is Tyr, Christ, the Fisher King and others as well.
It's why WoT is a poor choice for a person just starting to get into fantasy literature, so much of what's elevating in the series comes from the foundational idea of the Wheel and the fact that RJ encoded so much of our own history, mythologies, religions and stories back into the third age.
It's the main reason I enjoyed the series. All the different pantheons mixed together with all myths and legends. All the Arthurian bits mixed in are great. Sa'angreal being so close to the French phrase san greal, (holy grail) for instance.
Then there's all the stories Thom tells: Lenn going to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire (John Glenn).
Mosk and Merk. (Moscow and America) The giants who went to war with lances of fire that reached around the world. Etc.
Every re-read of WoT I find something I missed before because I had yet to read the stories or history it referenced.
@@dicknarcowitz well ill be damned! thanks that was a lot of cool detail i never would’ve noticed on my own 😁
I am currently on the 4th book of the series and I am reeeeally loving it. I want to thank Daniel for being a brand ambassador of TWOT and making so much interesting content to inspire me to go for it.
I think Shai'Tan quite literally signifies the "gap" that humans have to cross between one another to cooperate and the petty infighting mirrored that perfectly.
When they say that the Iron Tower is a ripoff of the Lord of the Rings, here's where that comes from. It was written as an unofficial sequel to the Lord of the Rings. When the author couldn't get the rights, he just rewrote the Lord of the Rings in the first book of the series and put the series in a vaguely new world. So of any series that can be called a Lord of the Rings ripoff, I think that Iron Tower is the one that might actually deserve it.
Shanara totally deserves it to. At least the first 3. He got better after that.
@@robertblume2951 I'd say mainly the first book, Sword of Shanara, is just LOTR with the serial number filed off. The rest of the initial series is definitely heavily influenced by LOTR but not a reworked retelling in the way Sword is.
Given LotR is cited as the first of modern epic fantasy, and obviously created a particular fantasy boom, it's not hard to look at most post-LotR fantasy settings as "ripping it off"; it's so often too easy to confuse plagiarism and inspiration. Sometimes an idea is so great that one wants to continue it, and can't really change that concept without ruining it. Other times, it's obvious that a writer can't really come up with their own stuff, so they take something from someone else in the hopes that it will make their stuff immediately better.
At the same time, one could be cynical and cite all the ways in which Tolkien's setting just "plagiarizes" prior fantasy stories and stands apart by way of being the biggest epic at that point; others already wrote of human heroes, dark lords, elves, dwarves, etc., but he set it upon the grandest stage.
It all comes down to the individual and what they want to see.
If we want to like something, we will and will forgive any point that seems derivative or otherwise lackluster; if we want to dislike something, we will and we'll condemn every petty thing we can find, even elements that might be good.
@@frutrace This is true. But in many ways 2 and 3 just retell 1. So though they are less derivative they still are. I preferred the magic kingdom for sale series it was definitely unique and his own thing. Knight of the Word was great and its ending pretty much redeemed all of shinara. The original trilogy might be derivative but the whole series is it's own thing now.
@@robertblume2951 Yes, Brooks eventually took the LOTR training wheels off and went his own way. After the derivative first series, Magic Kingdom was definitely a breath of fresh air that I totally enjoyed.
As to your second point, I thought the great thing about WoT was that it was a commentary on heroic narratives. The characters think about how they're not heroes all the time, because things aren't so easy. In The Shadow Rising, Rand even thinks "In stories everyone just goes along with the hero. Someone says 'Behold!' And the story is over." This metafictional aspect is really what got me. That's what The Wheel of Time is about at its core.
I also like how the boys are constantly wishing they were as good with girls as the other two are whereas they feel they themselves do not have a clue. I have found that to be overwhelmingly true. We look at others and think my goodness I wish I had it all together and clear like they do only to find in future times that they weer looking at us and thinking the same thing.
I think most truely heroic people often think of others as the heroes and do not realise the impact they themselves are having and Jordan caught this reality in the thoughts of his protagonists.
One thing I've noticed immediately, reading the entire series through in one large pandemic go at it - The Brandon Sanderson volumes were the only ones in which I caught myself laughing loudly at Telmanes and Mat. There were a couple of smirks in the earlier books but the last three had some actual moments of true levity amongst the impending doom...and a bit less scenery (Jordan would write 5 pages of scenery and you could picture everything in the minds eye as intended; Sanderson let peoples imagination take charge of much more of the landscapes and so forth.
I started on Daniel’s recommendation and am halfway through book two now- I love it, but a lot of things people say are making me nervous to keep going. Particularly, I love Perrin but he seems to get a good deal of hate, so I’m worried about his future 😅
To an extent ignore what other poeple think and focus on what you think/feel. I love Perrin and I love what Jordan does with him. A lot of people are frustrated with Perrin because they want him to make decisions they would make or they want him to make rather than decisions that make sense with his established character and events in his life. I love Galad... and people say NO you can't! He's SO whatever. I have happily learned to enjoy the books for my own reading of them. I heartily suggest the same to you. You can enjoy this series as much as you want to.
Starting with Wheel of Time as your first fantasy series is like learning self defense by entering into the UFC.
Eh not really. Everyone is already somewhat introduced to fantasy through LotR, Harry Potter, Disney movies etc. I jumped into reading fantasy with Malazan and I had no issues. As long as you are not a kid you are good to go.
Malazan has that title
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 ur so cool bro
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 funny you say that, I was introduced to this series before harry potter and lotr because my mom had the entire series of this and didnt have copies of those due to a fire in their storage unit.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 With the malazan series???, Wow.
The amount of main and side characters are a lot and I think it's the most so far I've encountered.
As we get closer to the show, a lot more "I don't like it/it's actively bad" posts keep popping up on reddit and other places. As something grows in popularity there will always be people ready to tear it down.
It's reddit. Reddit solely exists to ruin the things you love, and tear the world apart. The toxicity on reddit is so vile that it makes nuclear fallout seem like sunshine and daisies.
I'm going to say one controversial thing: The Wheel of Time has a terrible editing. If well edited, this series could've been great, cut off repetition, cut off a lot of unnecessary things, cut off 50% of quotes involving men, cut of unnecessary description and these books will become *readable* I say this as someone who loves description but was bored to death by those in WoT because they're too similar to be interesting.
Also, another unpopular opinion, WoT doesn't earn it's 14 books. After reading book 3 I felt it could've been one with 2, the same can be said to books 8-10, those could've been one book. This series is unnecessarily long and for people struggling with books in the beginning, knowing that there will be yet a slog to come and then the promise of 4 great books after it is far from encouraging.
I myself lost interest after book 3, eventually got back to it and I really liked it, but it wasn't a pleasant experience for a long period because of factors already mentioned. We have women›men, which makes sense in the world, but the way it is portrayed is unreadable. We have whiny characters that are resistant, which makes sense, but all of them react in the same unreadable way.
I agree with a lot of this. Although as someone who read them as they came out (instead of all at once after it was finished). At the time the repetition sometimes acted as a reminder, lol.
That's what happens when your wife is also your editor. I don't know how anybody thought that was a good idea.
i don't see how thats a controversial opinion. Oh, and I agree.
I found only CoT & WH a drag. Before and after those books the series is quite good
Also the series is quite close to real life ... uniting the world to a common cause is tough because people will be petty & selfish ... more so true today
without a lot of the stuff you deem unreadable the world in hindsight would not feel nearly as lived in or real. there is some repetition that is to much if read one after the other but thats not how it was released andmade sense to have some recaps when there were 2 years or longer gaps between books
You must make a review of Elric of Melnibone saga, the grand dady of dark fantasy
The one thing that stood out to me when I reread it when the series was finished, is how much of the material that felt like somewhat chugging filler material the first time, especially through the ~6th-9th books or so, now was clearly and visibly strong foreshadowing and setup because I knew what it was building towards. And that each scene was deliberately moving things forward, even if they weren't in the most decisive or dynamic ways possible.
It made the books a lot better on a second read-through. (as someone who liked the books thoroughly on a first read as-well), because a lot of what felt stagnant the first time felt like it progressed the story meaningfully the second.
I'm not new to fantasy and WoT has always come up as a recommendation for my TBR pile. I finally picked up the first 5 books this month and I am looking forward to getting stuck into them, flaws and all! Subscribing to this channel was the nudge that finally made me take the plunge. Thank you :)
Thoroughly enjoy them and do let us know in comments where you are up to and what you are enjoying!
@@Trisjack20 it has been suggested that doing a read-a-long is helpful. I wondered if there were any good podcasts or youtube vlogs that I could read along with. I'm nervous about googling a search incase a spoiler pops up. I have just started EOTW and thought it might be a fun thing. I have been listening to Kingslingers podcast about the Dark Tower series and I think something similar would be great for this series. Any recommendations possibly?
@@loraines9626 Sadly not directly. Though there is the TOR readlong www.tor.com/series/reading-the-wheel-of-time/
Which is really interesting. The comments sections are pretty good at indicating if the comment includes spoilers. I am sure there will be some you tube full readalongs with commentary etc but you are definitely wise to not just start typing Perrin, Rand or Mat into Google. You will be spoiled.... for sure.
However if you get involved in WOT fan communities they tend to be fantastic at having sections which avoid spoilers and the people them selves delight in NOT spoiling the books for you. I would love to chat any time you want to talk WOT. Feel free to msg me or if you have mates who have read the series. It definitely adds something to the books to share your excitement, interest and ideas with someone else enthusiastic and who can relate as you go through.
trisjack20@gmail.com if you ever feel like sharing a WOT chat on some of what you have read.
Have a great time of it.
@@Trisjack20 cool, I will check the tor link out, thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has read this series so I may just take you up on your offer! At the time of typing I am on chapter 16 of EOTW and I am really enjoying it.
@@loraines9626 Absolutely brilliant. I am excited to hear about which characters you like... or not and what you think might happen from what you have read so far. Any cool moments or bits of dialogue you have loved. Seriously it is pure enjoyment for me to talk about books I love. I promise to be very careful of spoiling anything.
Thanks for the video - I don’t read much fantasy but during this lockdown I have begun this series - currently on book 4. I chose it after watching one of your previous videos. I am definitely enjoying the series - its scope and the time it takes over details is a refreshing change of pace from my regular 300-400 page novels. I also have the audio books and am dipping into them when out walking/ running although I often find I am reading sections I have listened to. Anyway thanks again for your videos.
Wheel of time and stormlight archive definitely hit the mark for me on character development and intense cultural clashes. I love that kind of stuff and totally agree with how you've related it to current events. To me WOT can potentially be a mirror for how we are in the real world both culturally and personally. But I agree, not a starter series and it can be seriously tedious!
WOT was my second series after LOTR and I was lucky to have grown up with it being released and the novelty of each new book drove me on!
The simple answer that works for all media is this: Nothing is perfect. It's okay to acknowledge problems, but don't focus on them. Instead, enjoy what is done right and well.
I think Stormlight also does the world uniting against a common enemy problem quite well as well. It shows how even though they want to fight this common enemy, they are still obsessed by personal gain and greed.
6:13 this the exact problem I had when I was watching your "why you should read wheel of time" video. Watching this channel was the first time I really heard of WoT, and of course I was interested. But then whenever I finally heard the many flaws of the books _(fourteen_ books, of which many seem to agree could have been ten or eleven instead because there is a _three book slog._ Many consider the female characters to not be well written or enjoyable, and as a fast reader, repeated descriptions would be incredibly annoying. Etc.) I was immediately turned off. But I gave the video a shot to see what things might not have been said before, and I didn't like it. The specific thing that makes me mention this is how you said that it basically is the foundation of modern fantasy like Tolkien is for classic, and it is amazing to see the roots from which modern fantasy grew from.
What's really weird for me is that I'm an archaeologist. I LOVE seeing how various parts of society progressed. But I do not care for it at all in books. If it's not enjoyable to me on its own right, I'm not going to read it like I'm on a dig looking for artifacts. While Wheel of Time may have done it first, it definitely has been built upon and refined since.
Sorry for the essay. Basically, it's not for me and that's why. I love fantasy, but I very much doubt I will ever read the Wheel of Time.
I have read the books (yes of all of them) and share a lot of the criticisms you point out so eloquently. Going of your "essay" i would sugest picking up something else
I got the first three books, read half of the first one but just keep imagining them all as hobbits 😂
Same here! Lol
I just finished the eye of the world and honestly what took me out of it a little is the over description. I love the story but I came from reading Stormlight archives and I was expecting to read the book with the same enthusiasm but in some instances it just felt like a chore trying to read through it. Though those moments were small, it still made the reading experience a little tedious in those moments. And it’s the reason why it took so long for me to finish reading it, those long moment made it difficult to be motivated and want to read on.
Literally about to start The Eye of the World this instant, basically after watching a lot of your videos I finally decided to dive in, wish me luck! ;)
How did it go?
I am also curious; did you like it? Did you hate it? Personally, I despise the series and can't begin to fathom what people see in it.
@@jachyra4 Hey, couldn´t get into it, but it was probably due to the fact that I was sort of burnt out on fantasy from doing the whole Witcher series in like a month. Will probably give it a go again at some point though.
@@Memory_of_Light not well, will try again at some point.
@@fernandobujaidar haha me too, after watching daniel for so long, loving all of brandon sandersons work and seeing that he ranks them both very highly i've tried to get into it to, and its kind of fine? I dont really feel strongly for or against it either way. Pretty much all of the characters annoy me so I'm not really rooting for anyone (i just finished book 3, i think Matt is the only one i kind of have a soft spot for now)
I am in book 5 of Wheel and love it. What confuses me is that right before starting it I read the 30+ books that is Terry Brooks Shannara which I also loved. Both are well written. Both start similarly to LOTR with the farm boy/chosen one, Gandolf-like figure, other races and creeping evil threatening the full universe of the book, but Shannara is hated and Wheel is loved.
When the 6th to 8th books came out we were utterly frustrated because the story went nowhere and we decided not to continue reading the rest which at the time were not yet published.
As someone who was an active fantasy reader when this came out, I was turned off by two things: The overwhelming push by people to read the series and the lack of anything catching for me to keep going.
There is the old adage that if you push too much to get someone to do something, they are going to do the opposite. I always have to question why people enjoy it so much that they will go on a heretical purge (at the time of the first book's release, the WoT fans were not so kind and forgiving) to either convert or destroy. As someone who is defiant of heretical purges, I dug my heels in even more because of it. I am all good for people who love their art, but no one has to suffer because of it either.
I read part of the first book and then picked up the WoT OGL D20 book to get the best primer. To say I was underwhelmed is probably the most respectful thing I could say. The story didn't hook me in the slightest and the game book, while great at giving people a better look at the world and a quick hit of lore, was not endearing. It was just another world in a long line of worlds that didn't set itself apart too much.
I think that was my big issue with everything (other than heretical purges) is nothing set the world apart. I have vampires who create their own world from their misery, I have dragon riders fighting draconians to stop the Cataclysm. I have Lord Soth. I have fractional worlds with intrigue on what happened. WoT was just there. It was politics and policies from a one-sided view that didn't really give full weight to the actual world itself. Sure, I stopped at one book (and his death really demotivated me to pick anything else up because I am anti-Sanderson) and used the gaming supplement as a primer, but that is far better than trying to go through 15 books to find one book's worth of morsels to tide me over.
I don't have much time left on this planet, I have to manage my time personally.
I really should read wheel of time!
Same but damn it’s so long..... 😪
@@TheAchmedhabibi I just got the first book and I am sooo excited! At least it's long enough to keep me occupied for more than a few days!
I’m on book 13. Trust me it’s worth it
Love love love the WoT.
@Wil E I will have to check that out! I love audible! Thanks!👍
I started the wheel of time at age 10, years ago it was a birthday gift from my older brother. It wasn't just the first Fantasy series I read, the Eye of the World was the first non-children's book I ever read. Honestly waiting for each book to come out, rereading the series just in time for the next book and then devouring it was a real defining part of growing up for me. But I also almost never recommend it to anyone, because it is such an investment.
As someone who fell off the series by book 5, it’s really nice to see Daniel addressing the cons that (I my experienced) outweighed the pros. Keep it up!
The problem with really long series is that any major problems along the way will derail the entire thing. It doesn't matter how good the series is overall, because even a single book or even a bad chapter can cause someone to drop the series. It isn't a serial, so it isn't like you can skip one book you don't like, and just continue it later on.
My problem wasn't that i hated the early books and kept going despite hating them. It's that i loved the early books, then hated the subsequent books.
Oh no. I'm not a huge fan of 2-4 and have only started 5. Well I guess we'll see if the sunk cost fallacy can get me through the rest of the series
Yes. I started the WOT within a few days of the first publication of The Eye of the World. The first book was very good, the second book continued to show great promise (with a few concerns), and by the fourth book I knew I was going to be in for a rough ride to finish the series. Reading the WOT did change my reading habits after many decades of being a dedicated SF/Fantasy reader. I swore off starting any series until the author finishes it. I've managed to keep that promise to myself for about 80% of the time.
It took me 6 years to plaugh through the first 4 chapters, and two days to finish the rest of book 1. In other words I've finally got into loving it
Every time I hear this man talk about Wheel of Time, it makes me want to give it another shot. But then I read half a book and I just feel eh. I hope Daniel keeps pumping out more of these videos till I accidentally finish the series.
The key word for enjoying this series is patience. Lots and lots of patience. Jordan holds up every answer as much as he can, answering one question and sprouting 100 more. I have the three final books by Sanderson, which they say the pace is best.
But until book eleven I'm enjoying the story a lot!, And trying to put my its faults aside since it's known that the pay-off is the best
I made it halfway through the series and my reaction was much the same. I wanted to see where everything was going and how it all wrapped up, but my frustration with the series was standing in the way. Eventually I did get through it, though. The solution that worked for me? Listening to the audiobooks. It's much easier to handle when you aren't required to devote your full attention to it.
For me, the audiobooks saved it. I started struggling as early as book 5 and made the switch to audio since book 6. Listening while driving or cleaning made even the drag bearable. I'm in AMoL now and don't regret a minute spent with this series.
And on the flip side I read the series long before ever hearing of these videos. And enjoyed them! Have reread whole series at least 4 times thru.
Listen to the audiobooks and skip through some of the more annoying parts. But if you're struggeling this early in the series... might be better to just read something else.
my canned response to anything WOT... "You lose again Lews Therin."
"Lews Therin I'm going to spend the first three books teabagging you every time you go to sleep and there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME." -Moridin/Ishamael
Therin lies the conundrum... Badump tss!
You Lews again Lose Therin!
You Lews again, Therin!
@@harrytraber8380 you snooze, you Lews!
I would recommend ra salvatore's Drizzt series as a starter for fantasy.
Mistborn was the 1st fantasy I got my gf to read and now shes hooked on the genre, and currently loving the wheel of time journey she's on
I'm only on book three now, The Dragon Reborn, and I can already tell I'm going to have a hard time making myself get through the rest of the series. I'm just not feeling super invested. I can't put my finger on why. I only know that with some books, when a tense moment is happening I have to cover the bottom of the page (except for the line I'm reading) to keep my eyes from skipping down to see how things turn out, and I feel truly concerned for the fates of the characters. I don't feel any of that with this series - or haven't yet, anyway. When I try to remind myself to pick it up and read a few chapters I find other things to do instead.
And I already want someone to cut Nynaeve's damn braid off, lol.
Exactly how I felt about it and gave up. Its just a bit boring. Malazan is miles better...
In the end only you know you. Though each book is its own thing and certainly not all of the 14 books are the same, RJ does keep a similar writing style throughout. His focuses do not massively change, so if you are finding it does not grip you then feel free to try something different with your reading time. In contrast to the other commenter I tried reading Malazan and pushed through 8 books only to find myself still struggling to care about these characters. I still have about half of Crippled God to go (The final book) and I cannot summon up the desire to give it those final hours. Whereas 'for me' I have read WOT straight through 5 times (One full time with each new release). My point being it is a great series but if you have done three books and you are not enjoying it then defeintely don't feel bound to finish it. Read something you enjoy more or go write something you enjoy.
However, if you do stick with it let me know what you think of Book 4 because I (And this is quite a popoular opinion in the fandom) would say book 4 is in the best three books of the entire series and it would be interesting to see if you felt engeged by it.
Because the series' page count is not justified by the amount of plot progression. Robert Jordan has no understanding of how pacing works.
Dude, if you don't like it by book 3, quit right now. You'll be glad that you did.
I really didn't like aspects of book 1, but thought it showed promise and that the characters would develop and mature as they progressed. I didn't like most of books 2 and 3, but everyone kept saying it got better. I finally quit when I only had about 30 pages left of book 4 because I didn't care for or actively disliked most of the characters, the pacing is laboriously slow (barely anything has happened 4 books and 3,000 pages later) and any character or power growth is extremely slow.
I didn't even like the first book cause I found it excruciatingly boring. I only finished it and continued reading cause if a deal I had going with a friend. Thought the next book was better, but not by enough, read up to half-way through book 8 before saying "screw it, it's not worth it." I realize this is coming realky late and you probably made your decision one way or another by now, but for anyone in a simlar situation who's reading through comments for some advice, here's mine: give it up. If you don't enjoy book 2 you won't enjoy the rest. While it might have its moments, they are much too few and far between to be worth your time.
I started Fantasy with Lord of the Rings and then Wheel of Time and loved them both.
Honestly, from someone who's been thinking about reading The Wheel of Time, it sounds like majority of its problems would be fixed if it was simply rewritten.
The only problems I've ever seen people repeatedly bring up are the overwhelming amount of exposition dumps, character descriptions, repetitions of said explanations, etc. That all sounds like it could be fixed with some better editing.
The only real criticism I see of the story, that personally scares me, is how unbearable the female characters.
Many of the male characters are also unbearable. And the most unbearable of all is the interactions between the male and female characters. Jordan had a somewhat, shall we say, dated framework on gender.
They are not unbearable to everyone all the time.
I read it again as an adult and my views completely flipped from when I was younger. I was shocked to find out I really didn't love it as an adult. But my main criticism that deeply annoyed and bothered me was the aggressive determinism. I don't really love determinism as a philosophy, and I didn't love that anyone who rebelled against the repeating of fate by the Wheel is inherently coded as "evil".
I could go on but tldr, I don't like a determinist narrative because it strips agency away from the main characters and I end up asking "why did any of this matter if it was always gonna end this way?"
Dude nobody else said that on a comment that I have read. I enjoyed reading it but at the end I’m like this is kinda dumb because literally nothing matters anyways
I'm only on book 6, so I can't really say whether that bothers me yet or not, but I do say that it bothers me in the romantic sense. Two girls pining for Rand, and arguably because they know they'll both end up with him because of a vision. So is it truly set in stone, or is it a self fulfilling prophecy? I wouldn't mind the vision if it didn't seem like Min just fell for Rand just like that, with little interaction up to this book (book 6) at least. Either way, I definitely think romance is a huge weak point in this series in general.
I've only hit book 2 but I feel the exact same about determinism. I'm really enjoying the series so far but those points tick me off, where the Wheel turns and things happen. We can't change that, so might as well just deal with it. This is probably the only time I'll ever say this but I agree with Daenerys. We need to break the wheel (albeit we use that a bit differently). I mean this is what happened with Naruto. *Spoiler for Naruto jic* He spends the entire series getting acknowledged by those who denied him. He conquers hatred and wins both bc he's strong and bc he's the gutsy ninja who'll never give up. But, at the end, it's revealed that he's actually just the reincarnation of Ashura Otsutsuki, someone who was weaker but became strong because of his heart. It was his destiny to be in a rivalry and comradeship with Sasuke, the reincarnation of Indra Otsutsuki. I mean Indra/Sasuke in and of itself is more destiny at work, where he must start to have negative feelings and hate his opposite. To be filled with hatred and the darkness as opposed to his counterpoints light and hope. All of his work, his drive, his unabashed desire to help, it was all just what the reincarnation cycle was leading to. Don't get me wrong, I love Naruto and this is a very simplistic take on determinism but still.
@@realBlueMoonMusic No it wasn't. Please actually read Naruto, because Naruto is not Ashura's reincarnate like Aang is the Avatar or Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Naruto is not Ashura and Ashura doesn't influence him or other incarnates. How I know this? Because Hashirama failed and Ashura failed.
@@vrinkee that was what eventually made me drop the series. There was so much drama about the love triangles and petty power grabs in the middle-end of the series, and I realize that was the point, but after a while I was kind of like, can we please just fight the bad guys soon? And maybe it was because it was realistic, but one of the main reasons I read fantasy is escapism, and maybe the bitterness and fighting over nothing was too much like real life for me.
I love the series, but my biggest complaint has always been the forsaken. They were built up so much and just turned out to be monumental letdowns for the most part.
Short answer is that the series started off so perfectly and then fell off the rails before it got to the halfway point. I will re-read the first six or seven volumes at some point, but that’s it.
Before watching the video, I can say that I have read WoT and loved it BUT there are many problems in the series. I think the author or his editor should have taken more time to edit the books. There is far too much filler, cut 2-300 pages per book and that would give a much better series.
200 - 300 pages from each book? That would reduce the total page count by about 40%. Do you honestly think the series would be better at 60% of its current length? Some books could certainly be cut down by that much. Others you _might_ be able to reduce by 50 pages. Absolutely no way in hell could you cut an average of 250 pages from each book.
@@frocat5163 2-300 is just a number. I didn't actually count it and it is beyond the point. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot of superfluous fluff. I still loved the series.
Always great to catch your impressions of writing and the world! As an older (OK, a LOT older) guy, I find it refreshing to see a younger take that is thoughtful, engaging and fun to watch and hear.
WoT is like the TV series The Wire, where you have to watch from the beginning to understand the giant, epic, sprawling story. WoT is not just a 14-book series but you actually have to read all 14 books in order to follow the story. You can’t start in the middle, and you won’t be satisfied if you stop anywhere but book 14. It’s not episodic, it’s one massive, massive book written in 14 volumes (just like The Lord of the Rings is not really a trilogy but one massive book in three volumes). There are very few stories that require that level of commitment with good reason, but when it works, even if it has glaring flaws, it’s amazing.
Six volumes. Each of the three LotR novels are divided into two books. ;-)
@@timswabb When did I say it was ever published as six volumes? I said it's six books and gave you a winky face. Are you that unfamiliar with internet etiquette, or are you trying to be a douche?
I think the quality of the fist books descend rapidly by the 8th book or so. I’m virtually addicted to the first book, most of the earliest ones are mostly excellent and Sanderson wraps the story well considering his time constraints though.
100%. Book 8 is where things seemed to go bad.
Whenever I want to recommend an intro to fantasy series I just go to Mistborn
The best intro possible.
Absolutely love mistborn 🥲 I'm in the midst of getting the secret history so that I can see certain reunions long overdue
Mistborn was so mechanical and narrow in scope. I also hated how the protagonists were managed.
I love cosmere books, but mistborn is not where I would start. At least not the initial series. Maybe the 2nd one.
The first one is just so HEAVY. Great, but it weighs on the reader.
@@rfjohnson69 I suppose if you’re not an avid reader. Mistborn can be heavy, but in terms of fantasy I’d say it’s in the lighter end of the spectrum. Stormlight itself is more heavy, albeit a little easier to read, and books like wheel of time are like black holes comparatively.
I fully endorse more discussion videos. This was soooo much fun to watch and just hear your response on a series you love.
I’m so surprised that no one address how bad Jordan writes interactions between the characters. It’s not that this series has aged or anything but just that basic fact that it’s poor on the fundamentals.
I really love large epics and have no trouble with long book or that the author use time to describe the world for you. I was looking forward to the WOT. But I have a huge problem with the “men VS women”, and everyone else are stupid, smoothing skirts, and basically a million of highly unrealistic behaviour to situations. I read 6 books. And over and over I thought that maybe it’s just this character that act really strange, or that they are so young, but in the end I just don’t believe Jordan left the house much... and don’t like women... the female characters are terrible. Only Min gives you some “water and shade”.
Remember that you don’t have to read it just because it’s well know. And it is so many great books out there. I wish I remembered 5 books ago.
Same... I'm reading book 4 right now and I am rolling my eyes so much because of it. I really want to like these woman but they are soo petty it's insufferable. Even the relationships they have together are terrible. The only times they are not bickering among themselves is when they 'unite' against men. I love the story but god is this annoying.
Also the boys are supposed to be childhood bestfriends but they barely talk to eachother! They all seem like strangers.
If I remember correctly, Jordan believed more women should act like the female characters because that was "Empowering" when really they were just bitches imo. Never got through book 6, Lords of Chaos because it seems the girls just don't want to learn and grow and just deride the guys over every little thing. The guys complain, yeah, but they're still doing things and from what i remember they at least acknowledged when they fucked up to a point. The guys also had it a lot harder imo, mostly because of Rand and Matt. Rand had the world gunning for him trying to essentially lobotomize his soul all while feeling the taint of the Dark One's power on the Male half of Magic and dealing with being the Dragon Reborn and all the weight that entails while also rediscovering the male half of magic's secrets and uses. Matt had all his lifetimes shoved into his head, was leading an army at 16/17 and everyone kept giving him shit over it because it drove him to drink and gamble in his very little free time to try and unwind while on a constant march. Perrin just kinda disappeared for a while, but he's the only male character I can recall that got a less terrible time of things.
The girls just didn't have to deal with consequences of their actions by the time I quit. Princess got to mess with the Reincarnation cycle of a heroine who had ALWAYS reincarnated with her One True Love by doing things she was explicitly told not to and the heroine just kinda shrugged it off and agreed to be her bodyguard. Egewene thought that because she ended up being the leader of the Aes Saide (God how I hate them) after their political fuckery and the schism with the Red/Black sect she knew best and was automatically right moreso than before she already did and refused to listen to anyone who actually knew what they were talking about while expecting everyone to just do as she said.
I just... I gave up at that point. I think I got through about half of Lords of Chaos, and just had to give up because I couldn't stand the characters any longer. While the guy characters can be a little stubborn, yes, they have no real reason to trust or listen to the female characters. I've never seen any female characters in any other media treated as badly by the supposed "Good Guys" as the female characters treat the men in this franchise. And we're constantly hit over the head with a hammer saying "This is good" over and over again by the female POV who keep saying the men are all idiots and layabouts who'd never get anything done if not for the "Gentle guidance of women" when the menfolk are going around trying to build an army for the end times in the wilderness and Rand having to play politics in a world that hates him (And the Aes Saide who basically bound her soul to his because she thought she had the right to control him about made me throw the book out the car window when I read it because no one acknowledges it as "Wrong" beyond other characters thinking "They have the right to him") and wants to kill him/preform invasive soul surgery (That usually leads to the men who get caught committing suicide through sheer soul devestating depression if they're not constantly watched and forcibly taken care of while imprisoned in the Tower) before he goes mad and Channels insane power and breaks the world again while he's trying to get to the best ending that necessitated his own death and saves literally everyone and everything forever while the women folk are going about doing things that they're told not to do, fucking up the cycle of reincarnation for people and sipping tea while they scheme how to get everyone subservient to them again even as the schism rages on and they're forced out to an outpost that allows them to continue on as if nothing but a small decrease in comfort happened.
Never been so loved, yet so criticised...
Apparently they are unaware of the Star Wars fandom.
I’m half way through my first reading. Loving the series and my only reoccurring criticism is the portrait of women. Having a large cast that includes a representative number of women made WOT, I assume, a step forward for its time. However, the way that women are almost always described in reference to their attractiveness, while men much less so, the portrayal of many romantic relationships and the weird use of ‘she crossed her arms under her breasts’ at least once a chapter is just grating.
For most of my life, the only thing I've known about WoT was braid tugging, folding of arms under breasts, and pages to describing dresses. I'm about ready to actually start reading it now and I am just getting myself ready for "women are the superior sex, but let's still focus on their hair and shapes". Like, yes, we are amazing to look at... But fellas... jeez... stop...
7:48 As a person who's only prior exposure to fantasy literature before reading 'The Wheel of Time' was the obscure 'The Keys to the Kingdom' series, I fully agree with this statement.
Great video, and commentary on the series. I have just finished reading WOT (yes, all of the books) last month, and I agree with many of the criticisms. Some of the story lines in the middle are quite weak and pulling one's hair and straightening clothes seems to be talked about way too much. I would also say that even the weakest of the books compare pretty well to many other of my favorite books, and are enjoyable to read. This series brought me back to Fantasy and to many other enjoyable series, but none can compare to the breadth and depth of WOT.
Good convo about weighing the pros and cons of WOT. I’m very mixed on my view of it. I do appreciate it for breaking ground with typical fantasy tropes. I will say though, once I read Dune, I realized a lot of credit I gave WOT Dune covered first.
I remember the boards on Dragonmount before Knife of Dreams came out.
This series has been picked apart to death and beyond (and is awesome) (minus certain parts)
Being there as they were released was something else. The sheer theory crafting was insane! one of the things I am enjoying about Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is reading it during its delivery.
I grew up reading Westerns and Frontier books from my grandparents. I tried to read The Hobbit in elementary school and couldn't get through it. Them randomly i found Wheel of Time in the school library and checked it out, This was 1999ish. I immediately fell in love with the series and bridged over into Erragon and eventually scifi books like Dune or Starship Troopers. Fast forward i have gone back and read The Hobbit and even Lord of the Rings and Lion Witch and Wardobe series. Had it not been for WoT i wouldn't be reading anything other than Louis L'Amour, lol. I want a WoT tattoo but can't decide on what.
Dragon on your arms, Car’a’carn style
The pacing really kills you when you are on a chapter revolving around character or plot line you find dull or annoying. For (non-spoiler) instance, in the Knife of Dreams there are a few character plots that I just didn't care about or only cared about the resolution of BUT the Rand and Mat parts were so good and in anticipated so much (I read the plot thread graph) that I just powered through them. What I like about WoT is how it captures the completely different perspectives and goals of characters and this necessarily makes it so that you will empathize with certain characters more than others based on the way they see the world or their reasons for acting the way they do.
So, for the shear length of these books and often wildly varying tones of each chapter you really have to be a marathon runner so to speak. If powering through (or skipping) parts you don't like doesn't appeal to you, you're just not going to like it. Same is true for a plethora of other reason, not everyone is going to like the same things you do, that's ok. There is such a wealth of different books that are going to appeal to different people, you don't have to force yourself to like anything.
Furthermore, I do recommend the WoT audiobook series. For a marathon series such as WoT, you're just going to have more time throughout your day where you can listen to a book while doing something else, with a book you really have to devote entire chunks of time to reading and nothing else. Reading off and on really doesn't work for extremely long books (at least for me). Also, Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are the narrators, and they work is extraordinary.
That was a REALLY good point you brought up about everyone not uniting for a common cause, NOT because they don't agree, but because they don't agree on HOW to go about doing it. I think that right there is the biggest issue facing current society. I don't think most people on either side are "BAD" people who hate others. And I am getting tired of the generalizations from both sides that anyone who disagrees with them is a "HORRIBLE PERSON". I think that most people (not EVERYONE) tend to agree on many of the big moral issues we face. But the big fights, and the reason we can NEVER accomplish any lasting and significant societal change, are because we get hung up on the MEANS to achieve said change. So, in that regard, I think Jordan nailed it. Wheel of Time was ahead of it's time in depicting the timeless conflict we are still fighting (see what I did there... :-). I still don't enjoy WOT (just can't get into his writing style), but I respect his insight into human nature.
Maybe next time put the text in the front while your reading it.
In case you ever do this format again.
I find it a bit distracting trying to read along behind you and not being able to.
Captions can also help with this
My personal opinion: "Malazan Book of the Fallen" > WoT
WoT is like walking throug a country. Sometimes it is flat - sometimes you will have hills and theny ou reach the peak of mountains and have a grand view. - But a lot of flat walking.
"Malazan Book of the Fallen" is like waking up in the Himmalaya and hoping not to die while wandering around confues and seeing extremly far in all some directions.
I've just recently started the Wheel of Time after having my friends recommend it to me for years, so far I'm enjoying it, though I'm only about 30% through The Eye Of The World.
For fantasy readers, there are several must read series. The Wheel of Time (of course) the Belgariad (and the Mallorian) by David Eddings. Dragon Riders of Pern by Anne McCafferey. The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson (yes, THAT Brandon Sanderson)
My biggest gripe with the series, was the ending. We never got to find out what happens after, in the new Era of peace (or did that peace actually work?). We just don't get any real conclusion to everything we've been following.
I know, I was expecting and looking forward to a 200 page epilogue and the lack of any kind of "this is what ended up happening" was really a bummer. I mean, did the Aiel wind up like Aviendha foresaw? I need to know
There are no endings in the wheel of time, this was just an ending
@@ccheyenne nah I thought Aviendah asking for her boon ended that possible future, since the Aiel wouldn't be at war with the Seanchan.
This is because Robert Jordan didn't believe in happy endings or that storylines just end. He didn't want everything to get wrapped up in a neat little bow and Brandon Sanderson tried to respect that.
Doesn't mean it doesn't bug the crap out of me and I'm left just wanting more.
@@averagejoe112 We don't know if that works, though. It kind of feels like the Aiel always have to suffer, no matter what
I started reading WOT because of Daniel's recommendation. I'm on book 6 and Im totally hooked
I love the series. My main criticism of the ending is the seanchan- there really isn’t a satisfactory conclusion here. These people needed to either be destroyed or be forced to restructure their society in a way that didn’t rely on slavery. Jordan was planning on writing additional books, I’m assuming to conclude this part of the story. I hope we get to read that story some day.
I actually like it that way. Yes the world is not perfect after the last battle. That is kind of how the world works, after one conflict, we start next one. take for example WW2. After we got the cold war instead.
I think the whole concept is that a story never have all its lose ends tied. It feels a bit child story when everything ties down too perfectly.
The way I view it is, it's the polar opposite of one of its fantasy contemporaries (A Song of Ice and Fire). Where ASOIAF is grounded and real, WOT is focused on real characters doing fantastic things.
As a person who started WOT in 1992, my thought is: it started good, became wonderful, then the quality took a deep dive and ended with the decent-but-not-great Sanderson books. So, despite being one of the best fantasy series overall, it still fell short of expectations. It's a shame Jordan didn't follow his original plan and made a 6-7 books long series!
I got back into WoT when I found your chanel, finished and loved it. Found it a bit standard at the start but for me, I respect series that used a trope first or best, which is prevalent in WoT.
Interesting. I actually just started book 1 so I look forward to watching the story unfold :)
Enjoy the ride! Let us know what you think as it happens!
Someone else wrote in their comment that the main problem they had with the story is they've forgotten 90% of what happened in it, and I couldn't agree more. It's been a few years since I've read and the only impression it's really left on me is that the world of WoT is full of peoples and cultures who are 100% diametrically opposed to each other and will hold on to those differences with extreme dogmatism. The main characters somehow runs afoul of all of them. One other aside I remember is that there's an extremely important event that changes everything around book 7-8 I think (accomplished by Rand and Nynaeve) and neither them nor the ramifications are spoken of for the entire next book! Instead we get 500 pages of Aes Sedai politics, oh joy!
Personally, I think the reason for not remembering much of it is that I felt untethered from the story, since I didn't have any character I felt particularly attached to. Maybe that has something to do with the wild culture clashes happening, I'm not sure. But contrast with something like ASoIaF, with very clearly defined, sympathetic characters; I can certainly recite a lot more of what happens in those books (and could do so before the TV-show as well)!
Maybe the series is more suited for people who are world-building minded readers than character readers, if there is such a distinction. I can certainly not fault Robert Jordan for a world lacking complexity. But trying to get into the mind of all these peoples and cultures that think all of the others suck or are weird is just exhausting and draining to me.