The Serious Flaws of the First Order Dreadnought | Star Wars: The Last Jedi
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ธ.ค. 2018
- We break down the serious issues with the First Orders Mandator IV dreadnought, on today's The Last Jedi centered episode of Star Wars Lore!
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Yes, my choice won
You know, after looking at the Mandator IV, I wonder if they were somehow rushed into battle incomplete. Having the reactor so exposed, the lack of weaponry outside the paltry point defense towers make me think in universe the First Order was using ships that were partially completed and basically just had hull plates slapped over everything that wasn't ready. Maybe the First Order launched the entire war way ahead of schedule.
This ship does so much mistakes.
Hmm the rebellion specializes in blowing up large ships with small starfighters...
Let’s build even larger ships that can be easily blown up with small starfighters!!
Genius !
AND not have good anti star fighter weapons! Or deploy our own fighters!!
WHO HIRED THIS GUY GIVE HIM A RAISE+A BIGGER RAISE! HE’S A GENUIS!
Make that man chief engineer!!!
And for all who remember the Death Stars exhaust port, let's add a GIGANTIC weak spot on the dorsal side.
The biggest weakness of the first order dreadnought:
"Let's take the Death Star's most crippling flaw and make it half the size of our whole damn ship."
To be fair it took 1000+ proton bombs to hurt said weakness.
Proton bombs have always been that size, and they can do a lot of damage, one going off in the middle of an ISD can destroy they ship
@NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars The Star Fortresses were pathetic cannon fodder so of course Y wingss would have been more effective
"....designed specifically at the request of Rian Johnson..."
Oh. Makes sense now.
Hand Grenade? Dude- Proton bombs are HUGE in rebels, I'd say about a foot wide, and about 5-6 feet tall, and this is 30 years after, so it's likely the technology allowed for miniaturization- I'd say their about a foot in diameter.
Having more smaller bomb has more tactical value over one big bomb, for example half the bombs dropped at one point ,the other half dropped somewhere else- But you are right, having one big bomb in this case would be more effective- I think?
Lets just be real, the Mandator IV was only there to be blown up by the good guys, as soon as it was wheeled out I knew it was doomed same as the Supremacy. A far cry from the days when the Executor loomed onto my TV screen and blew my child brain
Still my favorite scifi battleship, also when I was a kid I used to think it was called the Executioner.
@@lordfrostwind3151 Executioner has a nice ring to it, I didn't even know it had a name till many years later, at the time I just called it "my ship"
Executor got blown up by a single snub fighter lmao. Are people truely so afraid as to not critize the original trilogy in any way?
The Death Star only existed to get blown up by a farm boy with his deus ex machina powers
@@PlazmaZ5 true but at least it survived longer than like 10min of screentime
Something that is called a dreadnaught and is that size should have more turbolasers, point defense turrets, missile launchers, and ion cannons. It's like whoever designed the dreadnaught forgot the basics of ship design.
More like they never learned them in the first place.
@Ī Shinron Then why are you here.
Total headcannon, but I think the Mandator IVs were partially completed and rushed into battle against the New Republic and Resistance. They only had time to finish the autocannons and the main hull, slapped hull plates over the rest and strapped as many point defense weapons as they could before the war began. Would also explain why the First Order officers had no idea how to properly use/deploy them in combat.
@@lordfrostwind3151 I can see that. It just seems weird though. Why would you declare war when you don't have ships ready yet. Starkiller Base destroyed most of the New Republic fleet. They could have just used their Star Destroyers they had to finish the rest. We definitely saw plenty when they showed Snoke's ship. This is the type of comment I like. You have an answer and explain it instead of typing hate like the guy above. Thank you.
The point defense is fine, the reason the Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't model the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
The biggest slice of pizza in space! Good vid. The ship was a bit lackluster to me.
Italia strikes back
@@troo_6656 lmfao
It's a wedge. That's almost literally the definition of a wedge.
@@citamcicak The Joke
You
I like the look of it, not so much the execution, especially when the center is a giant “SHOOT HERE” sign.
I knew I shouldn’t have joined the First Order
At least the Resurgent Class Battlecruiser is amazing :)
Played yourself 🤦🏾♂️
You had a choice in the matter?
The point defense is fine, the reason the Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't model the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
Stormtroopers didn't have a choice in the first order
Our deflector shields can't repel lazy writing of that magnitude!!
May I remind you this is the same series where Bad Guys keep building bigger and bigger superweapons all with the same exact weakness. If you want to complain about "lazy writing," start there.
@Josh M There's a lot of reasons why the Empire was better then the First Order - they had an actual government and bureaucratic structure in place. It wasn't just one guy saying, "lets take big guns and make them bigger," and leaving it to everyone else to figure out how. The First Order is less Nazi Germany and more like ISIL, a group of marauders who invade places, steal the children to brainwash, enslave the people, steal the resources (what happened to Rose and Paige's home), and then move on. Anything that isn't just "lets have the biggest guns" isn't something the First Order is interested in.
@Josh M Why is it "bad writing" if it serves the story? If the Empire were highly-organized SS-like authoritarians, then the First Order is the Neo-Nazi biker gang that gets SS tattoos and paints Swastikas on all their stuff before riding out with shotguns blazing to commit petty robberies. Except they managed to get a gang big enough they turned into Al Queda and destroyed twin towers of the Hosnian system, wiping out the government that didn't want to take them seriously. It isn't the 1970s anymore.
That puny writer is too hasty and too lazy for our surface guns.
@@bryancloutier5665 Puns? What puns?
Why is the main bridge so big?
- Because they were housing better ship desings in there!
I feel so sorry for Canady. He had potential to be quite a good character.
Same.
I really liked him. But I guess it helps characterise the FO as a massively corrupt power structure that's not based on merit at all. Just look at Hux. He does not deserve the rank of General.
I particularly loved his sarcasm. "We need to scramble fighters! Five bloody minutes ago."
DESTROY THAT LAST BOMBER
and in the novelization is even more great
@@darmansbar7900 I haven't read it, what does it say?
Lazy writing? People who created this spaceship has no idea how to build battleships? Or have no idea about space battles & tactics in general.
The point defense is fine, the reason the Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't model the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
Yep. Rian Johnson is no Ender Wiggin.
Tell me about it.
They should taken notes from the Eclipse in legends and put a orbital cannon in the ship itself that fires out of the bow of the ship much like the Eclipse superlaser with entrenched point defense weapons protecting it. While keeping the other 2 on the underside of the ship surrounded with point defense weapons.
They also should have had around 80 point defense weapons at least which would have given it full coverage and further supplemented that with other primary energy weapons and projectile based weapons like mass driver weaponry or missile/torpedo tubes.
And they should have got rid of the hangers completely and made more space for larger reactors and more armor, also switched from that stupid Rian Johnson shield to the imperial era style almost skintight shields that utilized both particle and ray shielding.
@@Innuendoes How does having a Stealth X-Wing even matter in this situation?
@@Innuendoes they clearly saw and could track the X - Wing because throughout the whole sequence they shot at and communicated with Poe. Its literally just painted black.
It just doesn’t make sense, an organization that’s supposed to better than the empire designed such a stupid ship? Lazy writing.
The point defense is fine on the Dreadnought, the reason Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't mob the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
@@Innuendoes all X Wings have some ECM/ECCM capabilities( the cutaway books and vehicles and vessels confirm it) so what you are saying is that Poe's is slightly better?
Hideto Luna except he called up Hux ahead of time and taunted him, taking away any element of surprise
The mandator 4 has 6 shield generators in stark contrast to the imperial class 2 dome shield generators. The heavy bomber scene was hero syndrome
To be fair all of the Empire's ships were stupid and made no sense either.
In the movie, watching poe fly above the ship... The fight made the ship look about as big as a regular star destroyer, especially then poe flew right from the tip to the bridge in a few seconds
I think that’s because Poe had the speed boost
Nah nah the mandator was designed after a slice of pizza.
MY BIGGEST ANNOYANCE!!!!!!!!!
Why did they still attack the planet..... they knew the resistance cruiser was in orbit, turn the auto cannons on the cruiser and the rest are trapped to be picked off...... even though most of the resistance are on the cruiser..... seemed stupid to waste time on the planet!
Also why no surface cannons on the underside ? Lol
There's no point, the Rebels were never gonna escape anyway.
Hideto Luna but the whole film was pointless if they had just fired at the cruiser lol
Also I wonder if the cannons used kyber crystals hmm
@@Marcus51090 The original art work just flat out had it have an awesome Super Laser. It should have kept it.
Hideto Luna yeah I thought it would be cooler if those cannons or single cannon fires a very powerful Particle beam like those republic walkers on geonosis just beefed up
Though I doubt that Rian Johnson thought of it, there is real world precedent for poor targetting decisions. The First Order, like the Empire before it, likely has a shortcoming in staffwork leading to shoddy planning not accounting for contingencies exacerbated by arrogance.
For example, the Imperial Japanese Navy was lacking in staffwork, often leading to logistics being neglected (a significant proportion of Japanese losses came about from starvation) and operations being repeated with no-limited changes. The Americans exploited this inflexibility with traps, minefields and raiding.
Also, ellipses should not be used to substitute commas, semicolons and periods.
I know the biggest flaw of the first orders fleet. It is designed by JJ Abrahams and rian Johnson.
Rian Johnson: "Ok so, I need this ship to be huge. And have these bigass cannons on the bottom to blow up bases from orbit. It needs to look threatening like its...some kind of fleet killer. But I need the top of it to be flat so we can watch an X-wing fly at high speeds across it. It needs to have lots of guns for Poe to blow up to show how much of an ace he is before getting reamed by his superiors. But not so many that it would take several minutes to blow them all up and would seem ridiculous that Poe could do it alone. Cuz I need to have a WW2 style bombing run and the only way it can happen is if all the guns are taken out. Cuz these bombers are gonna be super slow and take lots of casualties for dramatic effect and give the audience some tension. Oh man this is gonna be so awesome. This must be what it felt like when JJ helped design that big black ship from Star Trek."
What's wrong with JJ? The first order star destroyer is great...
@@nikojanatuinen631 Nah its just an Imperial 2 on steriods.
@@imppro At least the FO Star Destroyer feels like a Star Destroyer. You can put it next to the entire line up of ships from canon and legends and it follows a similar sort of design. The Mandator is just...odd.
@@dansparce true
Great idea: Fully armed lucrehulk class battleship vs resurgent class star destroyer. #AskEck
Basically boils down to which is better: the Resurgent's capital ship armaments or the Lucrehulk's fighter capacity. Ultimately, the victor is decided by how many of the Lucrehulk's 1,500 starfighters are Hyena-bombers; the more Hyenas the Lucrehulk has, the more likely it'll win.
@Lady Wanderer He'd lose an entire fleet to a damn cloud car
Oh of course Rian Johnson had a direct hand in the design. It makes sense now why it ignores everything that came before it, lore-wise. Just like the rest of the film.
Lez make the new capital ship a triangle... SW Fans love triangles.
Good thing he left starwars
Don't forget, JJ Abrams ignored everything that came before as well.
Destroying the New Jedi & Republic in his film.
@@VideoSage aye. Also, hi there Sage 👋 Love the vids.
Are your expectations subverted yet!?
"When you were designing this ship, didn't you consider that space is three dimensional?"
"No I did not."
That ship is like the sequels.
Your right it's just that bad
Nah, is like the SW fandom, ready to blow up at the minimum thing
That's not a ship... It's a slice of pepperoni 🍕
Looks cool at first but in reality is completely pointless?
Crap?
you know if those bombs are launched magnetically... can't they just turn their side toward the star destroyer and fire the bombs from range?
But then you wouldn't get a WW2 style bomber and instead would something that actually would make some sense.
But that’s not how gravity works (sarcasm)
Or... you know... missiles? Long ranged weaponry of literally any kind. Or just Y-Wings. Or even the Hyperdrives that the shit suicide bombers had would have been better. Just ram the Dreadnought at FTL speed and done.
@@adambielen8996 I am Certain Actual B-17s would be better than those Flying T poses.
They had Better Point defense in Mass and Could Actually take hits, Heck there are stories of b17s Shot to hell making it back home despite damage.
@@tanith117 True on all accounts.
What do Imperials have against point defense systems lmao
Since the ISD II
Maybe nobody explained to them what "point defense" means? "What, invest in point defense? Those stupid points can defend themselves!"
Tartan cruiser, lancer frigate.
Nah you’re right Eck, in TFA, The First Order is a competent, threatening military organization. In TLJ, they’ve somehow turned into pants-on-head, bumblingly stupid people like the original Storm Troopers.
Much of the designs in this movie, while cool looking, are functionally idiotic. The bombers, the dreadnought, etc etc.
and the supremacy
The original storm troopers weren't bumbling or stupid. They dominated every engagement through the first two movies, even when they were ORDERED to not kill people. In the third movie they were also winning until the ewoks attacked, and even then they killed a large number and only lost because they pursued their opponents into their home field where traps had been set up and Chewbaka comendiered an ATST, which is actually fairly understandable given they were the guards from Corosaunt and that their commanders didn't take the ewoks seriously, even when the people on the ground told them that the ewoks had been slaughtering people for months by that point.
@@silvercrescent1264
It Does bring me Joy that i can burn their tree houses down with artillery in empire at war.
Sending those monsters back To build a bear.
Fix me like one of your french girls
Only if you draw me like one of your French girls
This comment is better than the entire script of TLJ
@@NightRaven-lh1bf get this man a shipyard
@@NightRaven-lh1bf This should have been in the movie. Especially the conjugal visits and the brothel. Then I might actually want to see it
@Baldur thanks
The ability to orbital bombartment does not make her a good ship
A normal star destroyer alrredy do that.
@@angelobellizzi7918 Exactly
Looking at the size of the core, what the bombs hit, and cannons they could have had the same exact capability on a ship 1/3rd the size with a much lesser crew requirement and better defenses... Bigger =/ better, though something that is better can be bigger.
The First Order cruisers could have used their turbolasers to bombard that base from orbit. There was really no need for such a useless, under armed, waste of credits to even be there.
@NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars which is dumb considering that amount of time they could've just built a much larger Droid army, or at least used droids to fill out the ranks
All logic aside, I was just happy to have a something newish to look at, and well enough lit. Unlike everything in episode 7...
But boy we're those dangly guns dumb looking.
@@StallionStudios1234 it’s sad that those few seconds were better than TROS. Who would have thought that we would got no new ship at all besides the Xyston which I don’t consider as new.
And in the Rise of Skywalker, ALL the ships have dumb dangling guns!
It was a badly designed ship period. then again I don't like the new ship designs anyway.
Raddus was good. Supremacy could've been good if they used it differently. Tie Silencer was good and honestly should've been the mass production replacement for the Tie Interceptor. Every other new ship was total garbage.
The point defense is fine, the reason the Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't model the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
@@Innuendoes you can spend the rest of your life copying and pasting this response, it won't make it correct. Also last time i checked his name is Poe Dameron, not THE POE
@@Innuendoes you're Rian's fanboy, aren't you?
I actually do like the design and stats for the Resurgent class, especially because I so badly want to see one going crazy stupid fast and surprising the Hell out of everyone. The Supremacy seemed pretty dumb to me until the cross section book came out and I realized it's a giant mobile shipyard, which I really like the concept of that. But the Mandator just seemed a little silly, also the reskined TIE Fighters. Though I desperately want to see some smaller tonnage ships like frigates and light cruisers for the bad guys.
I guess TCW is given more credit for having a dreadnaught-class ship be far more energy efficient and defense oriented than this...thing. It took multiple engagements to destroy the _Malevolence_ and the loss of dozens of ships not counting fighters.
Something I notice about the dreadnaught is that it seems like it’s supposed to have a First Order star destroyer parked on top of it, hence the very rear bridge, indented reactor bulb, and only pop-up weaponry on the dorsal side. This in no way excuses the ventral side being crap.
#AskEck How do you think the Galactic Civil War would have turned out if Thrawn's Tie Defender program had gone into full-scale production?
Luke will still win the war, also without Death Stars no ships can get through the modern planetary shields. Said planets also have Ultra Heavy Ion Cannons and Turbo Laser batteries.
I feel like the second death star would still be operational, just for a bit longer. Although anyone attempting to enter it with a star fighter would be annihilated.
The rebel fleet would fail to inflict dmg on the imperial fleet with there hit and run tactics. More imperial ships at the battle of Endor because of this. The rebel fighters would have been decimated at Endor and as such the space battle would have over heavily leaned towards the imperials. The ground force would have likely gone the same way with Luke going up to meet the emperor.
With the shield down for the deathstar fighters could enter the deathstar, however the tie defenders would have severely hindered any remaining rebel fighters. With the heavy loss of fighters the Rebel fleet would have splintered. Some would attempt to flee while general Akbar would have remained. Luke having bested Vader, and then Vader killing the Emperor, Luke would then proceed to cause the destruction of the deathstar 2 from within. Due to plot armor succeeded and left like the original movie. The imperial fleet losing the deathstar would have temperoarly retreated. The rebels would have won, but would have suffered super heavy casulties to do so. With Vader and Palpatine Gone, and Thrawn having a full scale production of the Tie Defenders, he would have easily taken over the still rather operational Imperial Navy that didn't suffer the losses it did in the original timeline.
The Rebel alliance would then establish a new government however Thrawn's counter attack would be heavy and swift. Gone would be the Tarken Doctrine and instead a heavy focus on Tie Defenders would establish a new galactic order. Again due to plot armor I would say the Newly formed republic would engage in open war with the Empire however a Thrawn led empire would not lose focus or fall apart. Palpatines ghost would be quietly eliminated by Thrawn so that it doesn't cause issues, and he would likely declare a cease fire with the Republic so that he can continue to expand his Navy. Then likely later would launch a surprise attack decimating the Republic's main fleet. Due to the knowledge of the Tie Defender and there greater numbers the Republic would likely be developing a fighter in the same level of capabilities as the Tie Defender (lets called it the Z-wing for now) and would begin a counter fight with Z-wings which would narrow the powergap. Now you have two powerful navies fighting each other in a brand new glactic size war.
@@Innuendoes you can literally just slide through a shield if going slow enough, and no the death star isn't necessary to break planetary shields, just destroy the stations (like in rogue one) or bombard the hell out of the shields
Best mass production mechs:
UN Spacey ( SDF Macross)
Earth Federation( UC Gundam)
The Clans( Battletech)
Terran Dominion( StarCraft).
GMs were pretty good for Gundam, but i'd prefer Zeon
@@iwu-xm3xc well after the one year war no Zeon MS was fully mass Produced. Only limited production and upgrade to old or outdated MS.
@@barrybend7189 True
I heard somewhere that the Dreadnought had so many flaws because it was a prototype star destroyer that they randomly threw together in their hasty preparation to conquer the Republic worlds
"....designed specifically at the request of Rian Johnson..."
Oh. Makes sense now.
Easiest way to kill this ship: big ships fly over the top of it, star fighters on the underside.
Theirs no weak points on the underside. It took 1000+ proton bombs to get through the weak point.
Take in mind the Rebels most powerful ship had a 100 megaton plasma bunker buster, it condenses all that energy into a beam, and they didn't use it obviously because that wouldn't be enough.
There's no weak points on the underside... Did you watch the video? Eck points out there are no point defenses on the underside, leaving the cannons totally exposed. The cannons themselves are the weak point; once they are destroyed the ship serves no purpose as it has no other capital ship engagement weaponry.
I get that. Also, didn't Ech's say it is possible to shot a torpedo down the cannons barrel and inflict damage?
@@Innuendoes Just because they used 1000+ bombs doesn't mean it takes 1000+ bombs. Once you're over the target area, there's no reason not to drop everything you have. Especially if you just watched the rest of your attack wave get destroyed by a stiff breeze.
@@Innuendoes there is no armor on the main guns. There is no point to this ship except the main guns. A vulture droid could render this heap combat ineffective
Flaw number 1: Is a pizza
That’s not a flaw.
Now I’m hungry. Can I eat it? If so, then it turns out it was a massive flaw.
On the topic of large moving parts on capital ships: DOORS. We got bay doors, we got blast doors, we don't have trench doors. Pesky Poe and his Swift Snub doing another trench run? Pop open a repair panel in front of his nose and splat! Poecake.
Throw up a big net and catch some nippy fish.
Is it weird that I want to see something like this now?
This is the most comedic anti fighter strategy ever.
I love it.
I think the point defense cannons are meant for small corvette not starfighters due to how large they are
Then they are turbolasers and not PDCs
I happen to agree with your assessment of the dreadnaught. I do think Poe could have destroyed the bridge or auto-cannons with a few proton torpedoes.
You can’t expect a quality design from JarJar Johnson.
I think it was mostly a case of ignoring proper tactical implementation. No fighter screen launched, no proper destroyer or cruiser screen deployed. From an in-universe perspective, it was like they ignored all the proper ways to to use this ship because it was big and had big guns, so they sent it in as the spearhead and thought everybody would wet themselves at the sight of it.
To borrow from World of Tanks: You don't charge the front lines with your artillery.
EC Henry made a really good redesign.
I saw his design while It DID look far better aesthetically It still didn't solve the problems the ship had
Whilst I don't like to ride the TLJ hate-wagon, I've thought since 'Looper' that Rian Johnson is a bit of a hack. He always seems to side with what might look pretty on the screen vs anything that might make actual sense, and the flaws of the Mandator are just another example of that.
Rian Johnson is no hack, but he had no idea what the fuck he was doing for The Last Jedi.
I like your idea of this being a command ship. Especially since it's really the second biggest ship type the First Order has.
Great video and would love to see covenant vs vong!!!! Thanks Eck
Why not just use the seige platform as a mobile artillery platform to remain outside of the battlefield and to have light vessles protect it whilst the battlecruisers dish it out with other ships allowing it to take down ships in an instant and or take down ground targets for a planetary invasion
You just make too much sense!
The First Order Leadership seems really bad at attacking opponents that can attack back. Its like they steam rolled over everyone else they faced in the Unknown Regions and never had a real battle
@@christophernemeth421 I really think that the whole point of these new films is to outdo the original trilogy instead of making actually good and cool things
@@owlwaifu4949 that is the purpose of the ship, by from a propaganda POV, the FO needed to destroy the Resistance Base first, that had the precedent on all, confirmed by Both the Poe Cameron comic and TLJ novelization
@@darmansbar7900 I think that the whole point of the ship is that it just needs to exist for a story,kinda like the rover from star trek nemesis
@@rylancromer184 but my thing about it is,why would they have hux in charge if he was worse than every Italian general ever?
Pizza shaped ship with Giant pepperoni cannons
Delicious
I love the explanation and the actual blueprint of the ship, subscribed, liked and activated notification
Conparing Imperial I Class SD Vs. Interdictor SD
Imperial - has exposed bridge Interdictor- less exposed bridge.
Imperial - exposed shield generators. Interdictor- hidden shield generators.
Imperial - exposed reactor. Interdictor - hidden reactor.
Imperial - no gravity wells. Interdictor - 4 grav wells.
Which ship is better?
I think another good addition would be to make the auto-cannons actually come out more and be able to fully rotate. But also have each gun able to independently target, so you could fire on two separate vessels at once. Imagine this thing suddenly coming out of hyperspace and rapidly targeting and firing on the two most significant (largest, command ship and key support ship, etcetera) ships in an enemy fleet. And like you were saying prioritize more true anti-bomber/fighter weapons, focused evenly around top and dorsal (maybe lower that whole bridge section too), and modify remaining space for carrying fighters/interceptors. Make it a real long range support/command ship with good screening and a good compliment of defense ships.
The point defense is fine on the Dreadnought, the reason Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't mob the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
@@Innuendoes not really. Stealth aside too in factoring in pilot skill and that speed boost. And dedicated as in not some kind of in between seeming turret but true fast firing fast tracking fighter/bomber coutering point defense that can shred approaching small craft (and missiles, but I'm not sure how common or true effective warshipship to warshipship missiles are in Star Wars)
@@NightRaven-lh1bf Oh, Thank You.
Thanks for picking my question!!!! I love your videos and Channel!!
I would like to see a full video about the covenant-yuuzhan vong and for now I agree with your senario about the covenant not being able to adapt enough to win.
Po could have saved a lot of lives if he has just shot some torpedoes into those siege cannons. Assuming torpedoes can puncture the cannons, which they probably can given how easily his X-Wing's lasers were able to disable the dreadnought's other turrets, he could have pretty easily have crippled the central feature of the ship and sent it back to dock for months of repairs. All without sacrificing those hideously vulnerable bombers. Sure, they wouldn't have *destroyed* the ship, but a minor victory at absolutely minimal cost isn't that bad when the Resistance is strapped for resources in comparison to the First Order.
As for the Dreadnought itself, if it had concentrated its secondary armaments on defensive guns that can actually deal with fighters, and gotten a good competent escort then it could be a real menace to the First Order's enemies if used for its intended role.
That's not backed up by any lore for the ship, in SWBF2ea, if that were an issue, Inferno squad would have seen it in the blueprints of the Dreadnought when they sent them to the alliance.
The point defense is fine on the Dreadnought, the reason Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't mob the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
@@Innuendoes yeah Inferno squad brought to Leia the ship schematics
I think the issue wasn’t the ship itself, but the way the First Order used it. If the auto cannons supposedly had such a long range, why did they put the ship at the front of the rest of their fleet? Also, why did the FO wait until the last second to deploy its fighters? Why didn’t they protect it by using the other Resurgent cruisers that did absolutely nothing to protect it? Also, I think the reason the weak spot worked was because they moved power from the shields to the orbital cannon, but that’s just my guess :p.
Yes they made the admiral an idiot to drive the plot forward and get a supposedly cool action scene..
I like the fact that you explain it as a "niche" vessel because that's exactly what it is. The thing was an 8 Km long pizza slice on top and bottom. I can forgive that it had a minimal fighter compliment...and if it's going to be the command ship in the rear of a larger fleet formation I can even forgive that it has (apparently) negligible shielding.
If I were going to modify that ship I would do it one of two ways. You could EVEN make two different variations of the ship for these roles.
Both ideas would require extensive terracing to add interior hull space. The first option turns the ship into a true rear line fleet command vessel that plays into it's role as an artillery platform. Though it would remove one of the auto-cannons it replaces it with both immensely upgraded shields AND an interdiction field so it can prevent the ships it's bombarding from leaving, I would modify the siege cannon into a lighter but faster firing weapon, still devastating to capital ships but not quite enough to punch a planetary shield.
The second variant would be a TRUE siege platform, again scale up the internal space with more power generation and add a THIRD dorsal cannon.
Yes please, a full vid on covenant vs Yuuzhan vong. Great question as well tbf, kudos onefadedgunner
I don't like a gigant ships I prefer ships to 2 km (I am not counting Lucerhulk). But I thing this ship is just the biggest slice of pizza in star wars.
Lol it's not the biggest not in current cannon or in the EU.
@@Legionzzzz1 Other ships have actually some form of superstructure and this ship makes me hungry every time I watch this film.
Can we just agree that this move is a horrible blemish on film making in general?
The Last Roman no
Why I had to lie?
It had a lot of moments that just made no sense at all to me, especially Rose and her "save the day" ram near the end, biggest favour the empire got in that battle was getting to keep the siege gun intact, not to mention the whole "now my fleet is dead i'm going to fight back" thing, honestly load the small ships with the crew, fuell them, turn the flagship around hyperram the enemy formation, hit hyper drives on the small ships, make sure the scatter and far more would have survived than the few that ended up on the falcon, honestly Poe may be a witless hotshot but at least he actually fights, in fact he may be the only one to have thought through a plan in that movie at all.
@@Midknight0122 "especially Rose and her "save the day" ram near the end"
finn killing himself there would have been super pointless with all the FO AT ATs ready to siege the place. the siege cannon was just there to be "faster" the loss of the canon would have not changed the outcome
No
To crudely put what I did in my redesign was flip a quasarfire carrier (or three) on its back and bolt them to the top of the hull then add some nice slopping ridges down the length with turbo laser turrets positioned on them
I remember an issue battleships ran into: large guns actually harmed the smaller ones. Iirc, the Yamato's massive guns would harm personnel manning AA positions. Something similar could take place with the Dreadnaught...if the people were writing SciFi, rather than fantasy.
If it had some actually working point defense, and didn’t have an obvious weak point it would be fine. I wouldn’t send it in to battle before the enemy fleet was destroyed anyway but still it should add a little bit.
The point defense is fine on the Dreadnought, the reason Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't mob the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
@@Innuendoes The point defense is not fine at all, it's laughable.
First, because of the number of turrets. The ship is over 7.5 km long, and somehow has only 26 weapon emplacements. The Acclamator, a way older ship that is used mainly as a troop/vehicle transport is 750 meters long and has 24 laser cannons + 12 quad laser turrets + 4 missile launchers, just for comparison.
Second, because these turrets aren't "point defense" at all. If you look at their size relative to the Dreadnought and at the way they rotate in the movie, they appear far too large and too slow to take out a starfighter (even though most of them were firing at Poe at the same time). Therefore calling them "point defense" turrets is completely inappropriate.
I suppose they could be effective at taking out larger ships, such as corvettes, frigates, etc. But there are so few of them, and they are so easily destroyed, that I doubt they would even be able to accomplish that.
It honestly makes very little sense how the First Order was able to cram over 1500 guns on the Resurgent class (a ridiculous number btw), but failed to put more than 26 ineffective turrets on a ship twice the length.
@@Innuendoes Stealth systems make you harder to detect, not impossible to hit
@@Innuendoes The X-wing is still optically visible and is at point blank range. If the First Order ship's sensors are so poor they can't even pick up a fighter firing it's guns so close to their own ship it's nearly colliding with the hull then they shouldn't even be able to figure out where their own ship is, or where the resistance ships are. To not be able to hit Poe they would have to be literally physically completely blind. You know the real reason as well as I do, the heroes and villains are both incompetent, because the person who wrote them is an incompetent.
The first order should if destroyed destroyed the raddus and the other resistance ships first to stop their escape before targeting the base. - if they had done this they could of ended the resistance as the base wasn't mobile so why destroy it before the mobile units?
That's the thing though, they were not really able to escape, as usual it took Skywalker to save what was left of the Rebels.
The only possible explanation I could imagine is that they feared (wrongly) the terrorists would have strong anti-ship-weapons on the ground which could fire any moment and the base was still full with material and ships who could take off and spread in different directions if not destroyed at once.
hv a merry christmas and happy new year
It's even more hilarious with RoS's Xyston-SDs' cannons being based on it, how it blew up when you shot at the cannon. Meaning likely the same thing would happen if you do it to the Dreadnought or Xyston have a glaring design issue that its predecessor doesn't have.
After re-watching this dispite everything your saying which is spot on it would have been nice to have seen this ship play more of a part in the films rather than being blown up within the first part of the movie like having more space battles with it the Last movie had a good chance with that but instead of every star destroyer having super cannons having this ship with loads of the other new star destroyers fighting it out with the rebels fleet and like from your latest videos talking about the Leaks of the star wars film we could have had have the eclipse super star destroyer as the main flag ship with its planet killing weapon so you have your standard captial ship's your heavy captial ships "the fleet killer's" and of course heading that up the flagship eclipse the world ender and then a large number of smaller classes of ships your anti fighter's etc and on the rebels side we still could have had that massive fleet used in the movie however not as many so each ship even if for two minutes could be seen facing off I liked the rebels Fleet in it I felt the large mix of ships was fitting for them just a shame that we didn't see them fight much and the empire side was just boring it was one type of ship with kylo main ship being the only different one. A real shame really a great opportunity for a massive space battle to see off the end of movies I really think that's what it needed plus it would have been brilliant to see. Anyway great video mate
Covenant CAS assault carrier vs Resurgent Class Star destroyer (5th try)
Resurgent would destroy
Requested a flat surface so Poe would have something to fly over. Yes, Rian, watching a ship weave through massive turrets on a pizza is very cinematic.
I like it's use while backed by Resurgent class destroyers. If it had a gravity well instead of laser cannons then I'd like to think it would hold it's target in place and blast them to shreds with it's seige cannons.
It's not possible to be "too harsh" on The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson just wanted to copy a scene from a certain World War II movie. This dreadnought and the bombers were invented so that they could do it without being creative.
I know you'll get to this in the finale of the Vong sub-series. Won't stop me from going through the motions though.
Anyways: Can you breakdown what is by far the largest space battle in the entire franchise? *The* *Battle* *of* *Yuuzhan'tar!* I have made this request: one-hundred-twenty-seven times.
I love the Mandator IV. It’s one of my alltimes faves in design. Sadly there are some technical flaws but the ship is really great if it gets protected by other ships
The point-defense cannons would normally be supplemented with the TIE fighter compliment, the compliment which was almost enough to stop the Resistance attack (the cannons would have guaranteed protection of the weak spot).
As an off hand note, the Mandator-IV's design seems to look suited for coping with the recoil that would be produced by the autocannons. Big enough to power, mount, and not be ripped apart when the two cannons with more firepower than a dozen Resurgents combined fire.
What I like in the Mandator IV is that it finally brings into the films a ship with "main weapons" that are extremely powerful, but critically, not "planetkiller" overpowered. It's a niche that the films didn't have before and presumably sometimes you just want to blow up a few ships or surface fortifications, not permanently destroy the planet. Especially since the Empire and New Order prefer to use large and powerful ships, rather than covering the surface with anti-ship guns that need to be used to slowly chip away at the enemy ships, they could have more ships like the Mandator IV which would have few or just one main-weapon that will be used to destroy or cripple ships with just one shot by overpowering their shields. This would be at the cost of other weapons and mean that the ship needs to be supported by the rest of the fleet but being able to quickly take out few critical enemy ships (and force them to focus on your ship-killer) would completely alter the tactics used. It would also mean that fighters (which are mainly safe from the ship-killers) would play a more prominent role in battle and that's good from film/story POV as it means that the main characters that often pilot a fighter or other smallcraft in Star Wars stories serve an important task.
Why does it have a massive arena sized depression in its dorsal armour? logically if there is a reactor or other vital component under that, you would build extra super structure or armour over it to deflect attacks away. Like the huge dome of armour on the bottom of the old Imperial star destroyers that protects the underside of the reactor. This ships hull funnels and contains an explosion in the critical area, rather that causing it to glance off or ricochet away from it.
I think it was supposed to be able to mate with a Resurgent class, not sure why though.
One possible explanation is that it was built as a test bed for the xyston lasers. They might have built it as cheaply as possible and the weak points were exposed for easy modifying. Once it was determined to have served its purpose maybe they retrofitted all the defense and communication equipment to make the most of it. They also may have had to enlarge the bridge as a result, because looking at the design from this perspective, the bridge almost seems to have a more prominent outline that's more like a typical star destroyers dimensions/scale, and then has had the sides extended.
Point defense cannons that are taken out instantly by a single fighter. BRILLIANT!
Dude I found you from your comment on theweevster18s most recent video and ive been binging it since
That spece trash have shilds?
Why didn't they put the orbital bombardment cannons on the supremacy?
Because its a mobile ship yard not a battleship .
Hey those animations are great, thanks a lot
please never, EVER change your intro song. its so good
This scene in the movie really displays how inept Hux is as a commander. He could have ended the resistance right then and there by moving the other destroyers into a forward flanking position ahead of the Mandator and pressed the attack on the Resistance cruiser.
Not to justify him, but he was doing a propaganda on D'Qar
@NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars He wasn't competent in episode 7 either. He couldn't even muster an effective defense against a dozen xwings and an almost century old yt1300.
@NPCs-SJW destroyed Star Wars I don't see your point. Yes he is the military leader of the First Order and as such one would think that he could organize an effective defense. Especially with the overwhelming force present at Starkiller base. The fact is he's only in the position he is in because of who his father was.
I mean, for that size, a dual reactor system would be good. But, TLJ as a whole was just BAD.
I combined this ship with an imperial 2 and a quasar class light carrier, made a heavy pursuit command carrier, not to sure if it works well but it looks cool
Great video and Do you think there will be another big ship in ep 9.
The ship has so many flaws that it is a flaw on its own right.
When the last directors let you copy their homework, but ask you to change it up just a little bit, so it looks like your idea...
If the first order had used at least some strategy...
Then the resistance would’ve been annihilated
Not harsh enough!! Love the content, work and thought put into it.
Interresting
I always thought that Mandator was build with this flat top an bridge, because it could dock into a deepening its size in the Supremecy. I mean, the "point defence Turrets" look like they could be retracted into the ships body. In that way the weak spot actually makes sense, because there it gets its extra energie from the Supremecy. But jeah, it needs more real point defense Weapons on the bottom.
Notification squad like it up
Captain Rex, standing by
General Wolfman Reporting for duty
Orange leader standing by.
Gold leader reporting
Escort carrier, reporting in
Ryan johnson was just shit at everything. I know we want to ignore cinematic things, and I can get behind that on any other movie in the franchise, but not this time. Not with the last jedi. Literally just sucked at everything.
I feel like its a stretch to place the blame on one creator for how nonsensical all the of the imperial fleet is. All Star destroyers are ridiculous in concept.
@@ATATChat Sure, star destroyers are inherently silly. Why does that change anything? If we agree that Ryan johnsons decision to make said silly ships worse than it doesnt really matter if they were silly to begin. Now if we are dosagreeing on whether or not he made them worse than thats something else.
@@ATATChat if things like this aren't the time to blame some hipster jackass chosen to be the writer director, then when?
You're getting it all wrong... Leia just order some Dominos pizza after their big win... The first order was showing off their bew delivery ship... Lol.. Ehh makes as much sense as rians vission for the opening to the movie....
Johnson just went for the visuals of a few scenes at the cost of everything else... It's like the movie was designed around big cgi moments, like the light speed bomb, or the battle on salt planet..which if the planet is salt why is everything under the salt red? We have to firce feed the millennium falcon flying through tight spaces too...
It was a check box movie Johnson just cared about filling in certain boxes and who cares about the rest people will just love the visuals...
But they didn't...
And we get the universe's largest glass cannon battle, that also looks like a flying slice of pizza fighting a group of pez dispensers..
This last Jedi is the sharknado of the the star wars movie's....
I like your videos Eck, and I honestly think the Mandator could be made both vulnerable and not make the Empire2.0 look like idiots, with a few lines and some design tweaks. Have them say that, due to the power requirements to get through tough Mon Cal shields, it has to take the majority of the generator's power. Second, give it all around anti fighter emplacements and give Po some wingmen to show that, yes the dreadnaught can defend itself from a fighter force, if they aren't quite skilled.
Also, I think we should take into account that all but one of the rebel 2.0 heavy bombers died attacking the mandator. True the latter is expensive, but, due to the power of lazy writ- I mean the massive resources discovered in the outer rim, the First Order appears to be able to whether such a loss, while the resistance can't. Yah, it was a big loss, but now the resistance appears to lack anti capital craft, which the empire- I mean first order focuses on. So I don't think it was too bad. Then again Hux is a general, so maybe he should stick to ground engagements.
#askeck my question of the day is "Can we expect an eventual return to the After Endor Series of a while back?" You have an amazing storytelling voice and I love the direction of the first 2 episodes
I never understand why, on a vessel that is kilometers in length, there aren't hundreds or even thousands of say 2-3m sized gun emplacements for point defense.
and with many fighters and even bombers being unshielded there is no reason not to use laser beams and benefit from their higher 'projectile speed' and accuracy ...
heck, just have a few dedicated droid controlled laser emplacements to supplement the organic controlled ones, their high reaction speeds should combined with 'real' lasers (not the plasma bolts that starwars calls that) should simply wreck any enemy strike craft within moments ...
That's becouse certain idiots in new Lucasfilm do not grasp geometry, or basic history knowledge
The point defense is fine on the Dreadnought, the reason Poe did what he did is because he is the only one with a stealth X-Wing. Hence why the whole X-Wing fleet didn't mob the Dreadnought.
Source for Stealth X-Wing is in both episodes 7 and 8 ics.
Having PD only on the surface portion of a craft (thus not covering 3/4th aka the sides and below) and in front of the superstructure (thus not covering the back either) is just plain dumb.
Having PD that then is also so large it is slow turning and fails at tracking the very craft it is designed to defend against, well...
let's just say that doesn't exactly raise my opinion about the competence of whoever designed that craft ( purely from an in-universe perspective ! )
@@Innuendoes Stealth does not mean invulnurability to fire. Stealth means that it is harder to detect a unit. FO did not have problems with that.
The ship looks pretty ugly...
I think what needs to be pointed out is that the point defense systems were firing with "movie accuracy". You can see them just spewing shots pretty much randomly into the air, like they're not even aiming at his fighter. Assuming they're computer aimed laser weapons, they will be able to hit any fighter that has a human pilot in it within about 10,000km and the fighter won't be able to get out of the way fast enough without turning the human inside it to paste.
Imperial Class Stardestroyers also had a flaw where they couldn’t detect smaller ships that magnetically attach to them just under the shield generators.
Super Stardestroyers can be completely defeated by a single A-wing fighter.
It was from a dumb movie, of course it's dumb.
No. The Supremacy was from the same dumb movie but It's still a relatively decent and Original (for people crying about lack of originality) design.
First
lol it says 1 view and it has 7 comments
What the Mandator IV needed to be more successful was some Point Defense Laser Cannons and Turbo Lasers on its Ventral Underside, Stronger Shield generators, a Heavily Armored Dome above the Weak Spot, some Turbo Lasers on its Dorsal Surface ( maybe some on the protective dome ) and a faster Recharging Mechanism.
I mean, according to the plans Poe based his plan off of, the canons weren't a vulnerability, that spot the bomber hit was.
Unified cybertronian species and subspecies vs star wars
Unified cybertronian species and subspecies vs halo
Unified cybertronian species and subspecies vs mass effect
Does an IP even exist that mass effect could remotely challenge let alone defeat?
@@cadkls battlestar galactica?
@@jhonnoilcringeincarnato8593 Hmm, I wouldn't know I've never watched it. But from what I've seen it seems likely.
Star wars fans:
Put Thrawn in episode 9!
Disney: nah we'll just make another huge ship
1 like = +1% chance of putting Thrawn in episode 9
"it won't matter"
RIP Legends you were the best Thrawn. 😭
They already ruined him on Rebels, fuck that
@@NegaGandhi very true
I don't think I want Thrawn in episode 9. In all probability, that movie will suck ass, just as TFA and TLJ did. If I look at how much worse TLJ was when compared to TFA, it's not that much of a stretch to think that episode 9 will be even worse. I certainly do not want a character like Thrawn wasted on something like that.