I love this great overview well done fellas! Couple points to make: 1. The difficulty creating lists is like the logistics of finding an expedition (difficult and full of compromises so lore accurate) 2. Y’all argue about the true way to craft your forces like a bunch of grey bearded duardin…so also thematic. Thanks for doing what yall do!
A bit to throw in drekkis favour is that you can only fet a reroll charge command once per phase. So if your running a twin frigate build, drekki lets you get to reroll with both frigates. Throw in that you could have drekki being carried with the balloons next to his frigate, then throw the frigate in with the balloons leaving behind drekki and say 10 arko or thunderer which you wouldn't want to charge with but get within charge range for their shooting. There's nothing saying you can't transport a unit in movement, then use assault boat with a different unit.
1:27:44 "The damage needs to come from somewhere." Most adequate line after reading the KO index. Still trying to figure how to deal sufficient damages with what GW gave us. Thanks for the review guys !
@@Aethercast I want to play melee so good news ! Still don't understand why the Skywardens are still that costy (Endrinriggers were already taking their "role" in V3)
Playing the game a few times yesterday, our Thunderer's actually helped me clear out QUITE a few units if I protected them, but you have to play them smart. Get them close with the close range weapons, stack rend on them with the khemist. Keep a unit of melee nearby to clean up anything a bit tougher, or hold back. We powerspike midgame if we keep our shooting up, so playing the early game a bit cagey is very important.
I don’t know if it was mentioned (I don’t recall hearing it discussed) but watch out that you don’t use the transport troops ability more than once a turn per skyfarer unit because you can’t according to the ability. Particularly for power through
@@Enlorandlast sentence of the first paragraph to the effect part of the ability states that a unit that has already been transported cannot be the target of the ability.
The deployment phase is so weird that you can't use abilities before hand. I quite like the admiral+ironclad combo. But if I stick the admiral and ironclad into sky high am i right in saying i lose his ability "the admiral flagship"? For many reasons 1. Boat is in the sky beforehand? 2. He is in the sky with the boat? 3. Can he choose another boat if he is in the sky and "not on the board? 4. Does that mean the ironclad can't really choose the "extra transport capacity" because it will be in the sky before I can add a unit to join them?
At the moment, KO (and skaven warp lightning cannons) are the only decently effective shooting in the game. The rest of shooting is relegated to sniping heroes or killing screens. Our shooting got hit a little bit, all other shooting got hammered into the ground. Points costs are definitely off, gunhauler needs to come down and all heroes need to come down. I think KO will be even more annoying to play against then last edition - which is not good. Being able to re-deploy or retreat an entire army like 20 inches out of combat, with no way to counter is going to drive players insane. On the flip side, this army is even more unforgiving. The only real source of damage is our balloons, which are made of paper and can get almost no protection except distance - thankfully shooting ranges have been reduced but there are still plenty of 27 inch threat range shooting that will shred them so I suspect that will be rough (warp lightning cannons are insane). Fly high can protect a unit for one turn but it sucks with balloons as you cannot reliably charge at all when you come down, not even synergy with code wright as his ability works in hero phase. Overall I was hoping for this army to be less annoying for my enemies to play against and that didn't happen :(. I was hoping KO could fight a bit more heads up, but that is way worse now then ever, especially with no ally options to hold ground.
@@erisedhammer3286 OBR catapults are also pretty decent at shooting. Generally I agree though, the new play style of the army leans into the keep away aspect that most opponents didn’t like already and will probably dislike even more now. The Duardin regiment of renown could potentially be a route into a bit of durability as they all get a 5+ ward…
@@maxbaumann4434 personally i dont feel like any of those other factions aside from skaven (warp cannon in particular) have strong shooting. Maxed out stalker unit does 3 damage on average to a 2 up save unit (thunderers do 7.23 vs infantry and 5.84 vs everything else, without khemist buff) - which is everywhere with all out defense and the biggest threat people need to deal with. Thunderers have on average 2-2.5 times the damage output of almost all other shooters in the game for cost and can get buffed rend that no other shooting the game can get as far as i can see - on top of that they have mobility via boats, deep strike and a 3 up save. KO shooting really is in a class of its own. Problem is im not sure it is enough to compete and is swingy as hell. 4plus to wound everywhere is just waiting for the dice gods to strike. We will see!
The faction is just overcosted and thats the reality of it. We would worry about damage output less if we had an extra board piece or two in our lists. Especially since we lack magic and manifestations in an edition that basically GIVES those away.
The issue is really how can something be costed considering the battle trait. Every other faction you can pretty easily chart points per damage and speed, with what buffs they can layer on etc. Movement mechanics have famously been stupidly hard to balance.
Thanks for the review! So based on your feedback, what would you think about this list? Navigator, 20 arkanauts, 10 thunderers, ironclad, frigate, 2x6 endrinriggers? With +2move on skyvessels, voidstorm orb, fleetmaster and the ironclad can transport 32.
Sorry for the late reply! I think the problem with this is there’s only one hero so it would have to be played as a regiment and 2 auxiliary units which is going to give your opponent extra CPs and mean you get out-dropped in many games. To make it better you either want to downgrade the ironclad to a frigate, add a hero and upgrade the arks to thunderers, or switch a unit of riggers to Brokk, or another hero and 3 riggers
The whole faction is super hard to build a cohesive list for. It really feels like the lists I want to make end up around 1920 or 1950 points, without the ability to add anything else. If 3-5 things came down by 10 or 20 points, I think KO would be in a really great place, but as is, the points chunks are just SOOOOO awkward to try and make 2k lists within the regiments you really want to be bringing.
Just figured something out - our fly high ability happens DURING the movement phase and is not a core ability. We can drop out of the sky and then MOVE the entire regiment that came out of the sky. This is insane - it is our old zilfin hero phase move + teleport all over again. We can drop out 9 inches away, move up to 20-23 inches with the boat and transport all the regiment within 6. OR we can fly high our frigate, move 14 inches and then charge with 2 units of balloons. This is un-paralleled mobility.
@@erisedhammer3286 unfortunately this doesn’t work, the core rules for setting up units (24.0) says that if a unit is set up in any phase other than the deployment phase cannot use MOVE abilities in the movement phase of the same turn
@@erisedhammer3286 unfortunately this doesn’t work. The core rules for setting up units (24.0) says that units set up in any phase other than the deployment phase cannot use MOVE abilities in the movement phase of the turn they’re set up in.
On the Drekki rerolling counter charge there's no point assault boat is only in our charge phase I believe. We really are paying a premium for the redeploy shenanigans.
The normal charge rule is also only in your turn, the counter charge command lets you use "a charge ability", not the charge ability, and it has the charge keyword to make it a charge ability
Just to clarify, Transport Skyfarers ability says a 'reaction when you declare a non-charge movement ability.' So this wouldn't work with Counter-charge?
The sad thing is that everyone knows when they read the stats from tournaments and see half our warscrolls aren't being played, their solution will be to nerf the warscrolls that are being used...
That would make sense only if KO were 55%+ wr. After this, I can't see KO breaking top 50% until a balance patch somewhere down the line. Free summons for all but KO, very little arcane counter play, quite a few factions have dirty tricks to missile units across the field. Doesn't look rosy for the time being. Arkanauts somehow look solid though.
I love this great overview well done fellas! Couple points to make:
1. The difficulty creating lists is like the logistics of finding an expedition (difficult and full of compromises so lore accurate)
2. Y’all argue about the true way to craft your forces like a bunch of grey bearded duardin…so also thematic.
Thanks for doing what yall do!
@@smatta84 keeps this up and you may get promoted to the rank of loresmith
A bit to throw in drekkis favour is that you can only fet a reroll charge command once per phase. So if your running a twin frigate build, drekki lets you get to reroll with both frigates.
Throw in that you could have drekki being carried with the balloons next to his frigate, then throw the frigate in with the balloons leaving behind drekki and say 10 arko or thunderer which you wouldn't want to charge with but get within charge range for their shooting. There's nothing saying you can't transport a unit in movement, then use assault boat with a different unit.
1:27:44 "The damage needs to come from somewhere." Most adequate line after reading the KO index. Still trying to figure how to deal sufficient damages with what GW gave us.
Thanks for the review guys !
I think it's there with balloon boys, it's just you need to get several activations out of them, which isn't easy
@@Aethercast I want to play melee so good news ! Still don't understand why the Skywardens are still that costy (Endrinriggers were already taking their "role" in V3)
Playing the game a few times yesterday, our Thunderer's actually helped me clear out QUITE a few units if I protected them, but you have to play them smart. Get them close with the close range weapons, stack rend on them with the khemist. Keep a unit of melee nearby to clean up anything a bit tougher, or hold back. We powerspike midgame if we keep our shooting up, so playing the early game a bit cagey is very important.
I don’t know if it was mentioned (I don’t recall hearing it discussed) but watch out that you don’t use the transport troops ability more than once a turn per skyfarer unit because you can’t according to the ability. Particularly for power through
Where does it say that?
@@Enlorandlast sentence of the first paragraph to the effect part of the ability states that a unit that has already been transported cannot be the target of the ability.
Good point, we'll mention that on the next show
❤ thx for the insights. Was waiting for your thoughts since rules drop
hope you found the show helpful!
Nice Overview.....it would be nice to see some ideas for Lists.
Great episode as usual gents. thanks for sharing interesting insights.
Glad you enjoyed it
The deployment phase is so weird that you can't use abilities before hand. I quite like the admiral+ironclad combo. But if I stick the admiral and ironclad into sky high am i right in saying i lose his ability "the admiral flagship"? For many reasons
1. Boat is in the sky beforehand?
2. He is in the sky with the boat?
3. Can he choose another boat if he is in the sky and "not on the board?
4. Does that mean the ironclad can't really choose the "extra transport capacity" because it will be in the sky before I can add a unit to join them?
1,2 & 4, yes, 3, no.
At the moment, KO (and skaven warp lightning cannons) are the only decently effective shooting in the game. The rest of shooting is relegated to sniping heroes or killing screens. Our shooting got hit a little bit, all other shooting got hammered into the ground. Points costs are definitely off, gunhauler needs to come down and all heroes need to come down. I think KO will be even more annoying to play against then last edition - which is not good. Being able to re-deploy or retreat an entire army like 20 inches out of combat, with no way to counter is going to drive players insane. On the flip side, this army is even more unforgiving. The only real source of damage is our balloons, which are made of paper and can get almost no protection except distance - thankfully shooting ranges have been reduced but there are still plenty of 27 inch threat range shooting that will shred them so I suspect that will be rough (warp lightning cannons are insane). Fly high can protect a unit for one turn but it sucks with balloons as you cannot reliably charge at all when you come down, not even synergy with code wright as his ability works in hero phase.
Overall I was hoping for this army to be less annoying for my enemies to play against and that didn't happen :(. I was hoping KO could fight a bit more heads up, but that is way worse now then ever, especially with no ally options to hold ground.
@@erisedhammer3286 OBR catapults are also pretty decent at shooting. Generally I agree though, the new play style of the army leans into the keep away aspect that most opponents didn’t like already and will probably dislike even more now. The Duardin regiment of renown could potentially be a route into a bit of durability as they all get a 5+ ward…
I think with OBR catapults, Bow Snakes, Skaven and especially LRL Windchargers and Foxes there is plenty of strong shooting in the game.
@@maxbaumann4434 personally i dont feel like any of those other factions aside from skaven (warp cannon in particular) have strong shooting. Maxed out stalker unit does 3 damage on average to a 2 up save unit (thunderers do 7.23 vs infantry and 5.84 vs everything else, without khemist buff) - which is everywhere with all out defense and the biggest threat people need to deal with.
Thunderers have on average 2-2.5 times the damage output of almost all other shooters in the game for cost and can get buffed rend that no other shooting the game can get as far as i can see - on top of that they have mobility via boats, deep strike and a 3 up save.
KO shooting really is in a class of its own. Problem is im not sure it is enough to compete and is swingy as hell. 4plus to wound everywhere is just waiting for the dice gods to strike. We will see!
The faction is just overcosted and thats the reality of it. We would worry about damage output less if we had an extra board piece or two in our lists. Especially since we lack magic and manifestations in an edition that basically GIVES those away.
Overcosted compared to what? 3rd edition point cost don't exist.
The issue is really how can something be costed considering the battle trait. Every other faction you can pretty easily chart points per damage and speed, with what buffs they can layer on etc.
Movement mechanics have famously been stupidly hard to balance.
Thanks for the review! So based on your feedback, what would you think about this list? Navigator, 20 arkanauts, 10 thunderers, ironclad, frigate, 2x6 endrinriggers? With +2move on skyvessels, voidstorm orb, fleetmaster and the ironclad can transport 32.
Sorry for the late reply! I think the problem with this is there’s only one hero so it would have to be played as a regiment and 2 auxiliary units which is going to give your opponent extra CPs and mean you get out-dropped in many games. To make it better you either want to downgrade the ironclad to a frigate, add a hero and upgrade the arks to thunderers, or switch a unit of riggers to Brokk, or another hero and 3 riggers
The whole faction is super hard to build a cohesive list for.
It really feels like the lists I want to make end up around 1920 or 1950 points, without the ability to add anything else. If 3-5 things came down by 10 or 20 points, I think KO would be in a really great place, but as is, the points chunks are just SOOOOO awkward to try and make 2k lists within the regiments you really want to be bringing.
Just figured something out - our fly high ability happens DURING the movement phase and is not a core ability. We can drop out of the sky and then MOVE the entire regiment that came out of the sky. This is insane - it is our old zilfin hero phase move + teleport all over again. We can drop out 9 inches away, move up to 20-23 inches with the boat and transport all the regiment within 6. OR we can fly high our frigate, move 14 inches and then charge with 2 units of balloons. This is un-paralleled mobility.
@@erisedhammer3286 unfortunately this doesn’t work, the core rules for setting up units (24.0) says that if a unit is set up in any phase other than the deployment phase cannot use MOVE abilities in the movement phase of the same turn
@@erisedhammer3286 unfortunately this doesn’t work. The core rules for setting up units (24.0) says that units set up in any phase other than the deployment phase cannot use MOVE abilities in the movement phase of the turn they’re set up in.
Oh darn. Thanks for highlighting that
On the Drekki rerolling counter charge there's no point assault boat is only in our charge phase I believe. We really are paying a premium for the redeploy shenanigans.
The normal charge rule is also only in your turn, the counter charge command lets you use "a charge ability", not the charge ability, and it has the charge keyword to make it a charge ability
@@Aethercast oh sick
Just to clarify, Transport Skyfarers ability says a 'reaction when you declare a non-charge movement ability.' So this wouldn't work with Counter-charge?
Correct, assault boat is the only way to bring stuff along via countercharge
Hi! Please, could you update discord's link? Is expired.
Thanks!
discord.gg/yRUmJpYNUw
Is this better?
The sad thing is that everyone knows when they read the stats from tournaments and see half our warscrolls aren't being played, their solution will be to nerf the warscrolls that are being used...
@@VeritasTemplar860 hopefully that won’t happen 🤞
That would make sense only if KO were 55%+ wr. After this, I can't see KO breaking top 50% until a balance patch somewhere down the line. Free summons for all but KO, very little arcane counter play, quite a few factions have dirty tricks to missile units across the field. Doesn't look rosy for the time being.
Arkanauts somehow look solid though.