Sidenote: Why Motion Inputs Still Exist
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2020
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Sidenote: Why I Really DID Tech That Throw
I laughed harder than I should’ve because I imagined it was like a thirty minute video
This right here
And the follow-up to it
Sidenote: Why Playing Grapplers is Lame
@@DickfaceMcGhee Try playing Rook in Fantasy Strike. He's awesome
Followed up by: Sidenote: Why I Really DID Block That Overhead.
I really just watched a dog fire a hadoken...
Now when they say, “[It’s S]o simple, a dog can do it”, they _literally_ mean it.
Ex hadoken 😲
Hadogken
@@gregory7320 Makes it even better.
Underrated comment
I play at a local arcade near me all the time. One day I was playing SF4, and a kid who was maybe in the second grade came and sat on the bench beside me and asked if he could play. I asked if he knew how and he said no, but what I was doing looked cool and he wanted to try.
He picked Yun, the character that I was playing, and we played a couple of games. He didn't know any of the special inputs, but I let him win some out of courtesy.
Afterwards, he commented that he never did any of the cool stuff like I did (special inputs), and wanted to know how to do that. It took a little bit to teach him, but he got consistent with it by the end of the afternoon.
As much as I understand why people call special inputs 'gatekeeping', it really isn't. Just take some time and nail it down, like anything else, practice will bring rewards.
EDIT: Holy crap, even after two years I still get notifications from this comment. It's great to hear your stories about your first exposure to fighting games, really goes to show how awesome this community is.
When you land that first special move combo you feel like a god, a never ending tsunami of new possibilities just broke loose on your harbor, there are no limitations to the power you hold, it is only up to you to train and reach that potential, at least that's my way of seeing it
@@D--O I remember the very first combo I learned how to do was I think...
MVC3 as Dante
214H -> H -> 236M+H
It was like 3 moves and took about 2 minutes to do.
Even if it wasn't much I felt like a little 9yo badass doing it XD
Learning fighting game motions is pretty much learning an instrument, actually.
There are different motions and chords you need to learn, but doing so can have you playing a variety of different music.
It differs from people to people, I've been playing fighting games all my life and I still can't do a quarter circle consistently.
@@nisnast On a pad, pretty much just lay the middle of your thumb on the down arrow and then lower your thumb until the tip of it presses on to the side button. It becomes like a normal thumb press, but just angled. Most games detect that as a quarter circle nowadays.
It's not gatekeeping, it's mountains you have to conquer. It's like calling dribbling gatekeeping in basketball because you have shit ball handling. Other people just don't want to put in time and effort into learning things. In any competition there are easy and really hard things to do, and only those who give the patience to do hard things are distinguished as champions.
I'd love to hear you go more in depth on Ryu vs. Guile.
To this day I think Ryu gets that matchup in every game, free.
Both sides try to bait the other into either getting frustrated or flinching at the wrong moment.
I wonder what's another classic match up?
@@GhostOfBilly IMO Guile gets it in SFV
@@squilliam5777 Maybe if it's a Guile player that consistently gets the corner loop. At the end of the day motion characters will always have that edge of ease of input over chargers. Then again, that's changing the matchup through things like player skill which shouldn't come into question. I do think ease of usage is a factor though. Charge characters are way higher execution and playing them requires more thought. It's why I tried Guile and immediately gave up because I have a coconut brain.
*Plot Twist:*
The reason why Fake Martial Arts Gurus fail to apply their Chi Energy is because the Action Input is really difficult to do.
HAHAHA holy shit, this is the best comment I've read
Guys, it totally works. It’s just that if I don’t do my Chi Punch fast enough, a regular punch comes out.
@@ASMRDoodlez man I really hope they do something about those .5 frame links on Chi outputs
As a pupil of martial arts...it's not far fetched. The old "use your chi" can be translated to "keep your stance and control your breathing while moving". The idea is extremely similar to a link, you breathe in and out in a certain window of your body movements with certain amount of breath. So simly put it's a link uses meter, but the meter regens in a rate that you need to manage or you get way less damage or lose health.
darn
I don't even play fighting games that often, but I always drop whatever I'm doing when I see Core-A post a vid.
Clearly you want to join us. Pick a game learn a combo. You'll be stronger for it.
core a gaming got me into playing fighting games more seriously
I'm basically retired, but I love this channel still.
He is a true GOAT.
I love core a gaming but it makes me not ok because xqc is basically stealing this great man's content. While he doesnt have to go through the editing or the writing of the video and is getting basically free money.
I think it was Daigo in one of his Kage streams who explained it well. Ryu and Kage can both throw a fireball, but the difference in motion input for each move gives them different uses. On Kage you do half circle back punch to throw a fireball. That motion starts with the stick at forward, so it's easier to do while walking forward compared to Ryu's qcf+punch. This gives it a different use, Kage wants to pressure the enemy with fireballs while advancing, while Ryu wants to use them to space his enemy out. So already just from the different inputs for very similar moves, you have a clear indicator of which character has the more aggressive game plan.
ye
Stick at forward?
Stick starts at down, correct?
567? Wouldn’t kage be more defensive?
Just trying to learn and clear this up thank you
@@christopherthomas8421 what he is saying is a common concept that is "return the stick to neutral position"
doing a half circle backwards also includes the motion to quarter circle backwards, so in this sense its quicker to just do the motion and input that fireball while walking forward than return your stick to neutral position, then input the fireball, and this happens because you have the risk to just do a quick input and the game recognizing the first forward input and do a dragon punch instead, that is why if you don't take your time it can be a self defeating move
@@christopherthomas8421 kage's qcf punch (the same motion as ryu's fireball) isn't actually a projectile, it just blasts directly in front of kage. If kage wants to throw an actual fireball, he has to use hcb punch, that movement starts with the stick at forward
You cannot fool me. You made this video because your favorite restaurant stopped serving buffalo sauce chicken wings. The motion input allegory was there solely to make the complaint less obvious.
But I agree, buffalo sauce is very important.
Lol
There will never be an occasion when SF II isn't discussed.
Literally the archetype of traditional 2D fighters. Yea, there was SF1, but that was not really a complete 1v1 FG.
I find some incredible enjoyment watching good ST matches. It's this bizarre combination of being the base of all that came after it, and also so incredibly distinct in its own right. Also just as fun to play as well.
SF2 changed everything, also I think it still holds today as one of the best fighting games
@@raulfranco4711 right away other deves took inspiration from it
i honestly have never talked about sf 2 untill this video so no
I'm surprised that there wasn't a mention of the fact that you gain access to larger movelists the more possible input types you have.
Yeah because tekken don't exist
Akuma approves it
Silver SK lol. I’ve never met someone not ok with motion inputs but ok with Tekken
@@Silversk3108 if you dont like motion inputs and like tekken
My Eliza will knock you down so fast
@@owlflame That would describe me. You can do pretty well in Tekken without difficult to execute inputs.
Guile on SF4 on the 3DS had access to his specials, super and ultra with the screen tap.
Is bonkers.
Same with the Gamecube version of Capcom Vs SNK 2
RIDICULOUS!
XD
so fucking infinite sonic booms
Like the cat
Was terrible if they also had the auto block feature on. Good thing Ken's jump in kick seemed to connect even when getting spammed with flash kicks.
Can confirm; picked up Dudley because I was so tired of Sonic Booms in my face.
The guy who said "Balancing moves around motions is lazy design" probably thought Guile was fine in SF4:3D
fuck advancing sonic booms all my homies hate advancing sonic booms
And E. Honda and zangeif. Command grabs on tap.
@@LTMoore-yy1lm That wasn't even that bad for most people, since that is something we're already used to. Booms, though...
@@dave9020 E Honda and guile were broken beyond belief. Remember e Honda had a charge move that was very fast and attacked in a sweeping arc then downward.
@@LTMoore-yy1lm Oh yeah, that move was hella busted if you didn't know how to punish it. Luckily though I haven't ever really encountered Honda as Guile was just dominating the online.
For me motion inputs are what evoke the 'feeling' of martial arts in fighting games. Perfoming a perfect uppercut requires timing, correct form, speed and accuracy both as a player and narratively as the character. This to me is why street fighter is so immersive, why its not just a fighting game but a (Fantasy)martial arts game. Players must train to perform moves as they would if they were real martial artists, muscel memory is required. Full circles for slow devestating grapples, charges for sudden bursts of movement, the the characteristics of moves are conveyed to the player not only by what is shown on the screen but the hand movements required to execute them.
This leads on to how well though through movements are, games that have poorly thought through movement inputs feel like you are entering arbitrary sequences, overly simple inputs make you feel like you are pulling a trigger of a weapon rather than attacking with your own body but for myself I actually think one of street fighers greatest assests have been a control scheme that makes you feel one with your fighter.
I find it fitting that the fighting game where special moves are excecuted with the press of a button the characters are robots because thats what such a control scheme evokes of the feeking of. Robots where a complex comand like a spinning kick is recorded perfectly and played back at the 'pilots' discretion. The attack is a now a tool at your disposal rather than an ability you can harness.
DBFZ really makes you feel like Goku
Replying to this cause it deserves more attention, that robot/martial arts analogy is perfect! :O
Honestly while I know there are a lot of small intricacies brought on by motion inputs, I feel like a lot of people defend motion inputs just because they're satisfying to use (me included!). Obviously that's a subjective thing, but I agree with you that motion inputs evoke a different feeling.
yes! motion inputs emulate the feeling of casting a spell. this concept was an amazing work of art...
This was going to be my comment in a nutshell. Thank you.
I remember not knowing how to do the Z motion so I just did hadoken motion twice lol
that motion diagram caused a lot of problems lol
Same lol
@@Th3EpitapH Fucking alphabet motions, man lmao
I still kinda do that cuz I'm a scrub
same
This is the only super you have to remember for Street Fighter:
LP LP -> LK HP
It’s funny how they made the raging demon a rage art in tekken7
I feel like no one makes the argument that motion inputs can simple be fun to do I think its more satisfying to land a combo with a series of different motion because it feels like I'm really doing that not just mashing buttons
Definitely true, there's something magical about let's say doing a difficult 360 input and getting that nice big grab or doing the 263 for the DP.
100% Understand that feeling it's why I wish there was a middleground between full motion inputs and just 1 button. Maybe having a 2 button action would still be too easy though despite still having some opportunities to whiff... and still having the problem of finding a replacement for charge moves...
who knows maybe a new game will fall between the almost too simple Fantasy Strike and the big leagues. Maybe combining 2 button inputs with a direction? Allows Sonic Booms to keep their identity of needing a back press but without the motion input.
On more than one occasion I've taught people how to do a quarter circle motion. It took a staggering two seconds
Fr tho
Snks pretzel input is probably the hardest input in fighting games and its relatively rare
The hard part is properly comboing your inputs without dropping them consistently
@@V2ULTRAKill isn't the pretzel input exclusively for raging storm or are there other moves that do it
@@matabishippuden6965 it is exclusively for raging storm in snk games
Iirc a couple obscure fighting games adopted it
Though fun fact Rock Howards variation of raging storm does not use the pretzel it uses fqc fqc
@@V2ULTRAKill its actually qcf, not fqc. We say Quarter Circle Forward, not forward quarter circle.
@@matabishippuden6965 Only ever other time I've seen it is for Hazama's Astral heat in Blazblue.
I'm one of those people who was intimidated by motion inputs when I started SFV, even though I played a bit of P4A years before, and I went to a charge character, Urien, since I figured it would be easier. Obviously, he has a fireball motion, the easiest that isn't a charge, and eventually I just wanted to try other characters. Skip forward, I was facing a Juri and noticed at a certain range they liked to do the flip kick and I perfectly timed a DP with Kage to kill them. Using a motion I was terrified of to win, on reaction, while noticing a habit of the opponent, has been my most satisfying moment in fighting games so far. I saved that replay. lol
That's fighting games. Nice move!
Everybody's gangsta until you have to execute the infamous Pretzel Motion to activate Geese's Raging Storm.
I remember the feeling 8 year old me had when I mastered the Shoryuken. That felt good.
"Just like how cayenne pepper isn't required for good food"
*Chef John wants to know your location*
"You are after all the Danny Ocean of your Z-motion"
@@chasecomfort3940 lmao #dead
Stick: give it a good shake-a shake-a
Buttons: give them a little tap-a tap-a
I am a simple man; I see Chef John reference, I like.
Came here to comment (pretty much) this lmao.
whenever everyone's up in arms about something gerald really just saves the day with the perfect answer
What I found when I first started learning motion inputs is that the motions themselves aren't hard in a vacuum, but getting used to using the stick/d-pad for both actual movement and motion inputs at the same time took a while to wrap my head around. My instincts and muscle memory from every other non-fighting game I've played had wired me to think that moving around and using moves were two completely unrelated things so I'd screw up inputs by trying to move and screw up movements by trying to do an input.
2:56 - If only Anakin Skywalker was a charge character.
Anakin jumped to a shoryuken
never jumped to a shoryuken
He got anti-aired by Obi Wan
It may not have mattered if he was a motion or character character, because...
Anakin shouldn't have telegraphed his Demon Flip. He also could've canceled into a dive kick to bait out the anti-air.
Underrated
Thank you for saying this.
There are plethora characters and even games that have a variety of different execution requirements. From motions like Ryu, to Charge like Guile, to just Buttons like Ed/Falke. Hell, I played Grapplers and charge characters for the longest because my execution for most other moves sucked but I could spin the stick or hold down back good enough.
It would be more worth it to play other characters or games instead of complaining about everything you dislike and trying to convert it into what you want especially when things like Fantasy Strike is literally free to play.
EDIT: It's also just kinda irritating that the topic of inputs always comes ONLY about balance and not other things like letting developers expand movesets for swiss army knife characters like Chip and Ibuki or coming up with new fun concepts for play due to control schemes (Charge characters, or any character concepts with strong but hard to do moves would never be invented)
Devs don't make inputs to piss people off. They want to be creative and fun too.
I got used to most motion inputs quickly, but I've always had trouble with 360s and 720s. As simple as spinning the stick sounds, it comes with a big catch: hitting up on the way around makes you jump. I know the trick is to buffer during a dash or another move, and I can kinda do it now, but not very consistently. Never really understood how it comes so naturally to some people. Is there some other trick I'm missing? Keep in mind I'm mainly referring to the older Street Fighters where you can't just walk up and do a 5/8 circle SPD like in 4 and 5.
@@danieluranga6872 It's just mostly speed. When I went back to older games after games like SF4 I noticed I had to try significantly harder to get standing 360 so just made an effort to be faster for a circle. It's practice that probably could have gone into traditional motions, but I had WAY more for fun just robbing people with command grabs so it didn't feel like practice. I hope that helps any. Eventually you'll get to the point where you start seeing multiple places you can buffer it from like fast normals or the ending of get up or blockstun
For me, 360 was easier because it was used for combos and it was just one smooth movement like stirring that did big damage as opposed to multiple timing-sensitive inputs to get the same amount of damage. I could still win even if I mostly lost if I just touched them 2-3 times.
it would be very unbalanced if charge characters could do their moves without charging inputs
@@noticeme6412 see that one 3ds port of SF4 where you can touch a button on the screen to do walk-up flash kicks
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 Thanks for the advice, I guess it is just something you get used to. I haven't really played SF ever since Smash Ultimate took over my life last year, and back when I did, I mostly stuck to shotos and charge guys. I'll give Zangief another shot someday soon.
Oh yea another point would be that having more than simple inputs gives you the chance to make the character movelist bigger. With the character given motion and/or charge inputs, they have access to more tools overall that can benefit them in various ways. Dante wouldn't have his entire arsenal in UMvC3 for instance if the inputs were just one button presses.
You kinda forget simple direction + button inputs. If you have 6 attack buttons, times 8 directions + no direction its 6*9=54 different moves, which may be enough
@@howealtankaa But then you would get a lot more unwanted special moves. You wouldn't be able to do simple things like walk forward and punch. Also, there are already command normals in fighting games which uses the direction + button input in order to get a different attack than just pushing the button with no direction.
@@itraynell Most controllers and fight sticks have access to 8 buttons, so having 4 or 6 buttons for normals and 16~18 special moves linked to the remaining 2 buttons should be enough. Even more than that if you think of rekka moves and stances. Even more than that if pressing both Special buttons results in a different move (and more if Special button + Normal button is something). Lack of buttons is a non-issue.
@@itraynell You mean like Tekken?
@@eduardoserpa1682 hell, theres not even a need to have those extra special buttons, just have one set of special moves "Direction + Lk Mk" and another set "Direction + Lp Mp"
Button combinations are already common to do things like throws and supers in a lot of games. This is by no means undoable.
reminds me of when Smash added Terry from Fatal Fury and some people were completely lost on the concept of a quarter circle
As a Smash player who eventually picked up Terry, it's not that the idea of a quarter circle input was confusing, it was just difficult to remember my inputs when no other character in the game used them. As far as Smash is concerned, motion inputs are a gimmick; only Ryu, Ken, and Terry have them, and it gives them effectively larger move pools than everyone else bar Pokémon Trainer.
But, then again, I like challenging myself by learning the altered rules of nonstandard characters in Smash. Monado Arts, motion inputs (at least, Terry's- Ryu and Ken didn't click for me, and even in Street Fighter I don't play them), ink, tomes, Pokémon switching, armored jumping, dragon transformations . . . but that's just my take.
terry, ken and ryu are the only dudes worth playing in ultimate unless they bring wavedashing back
the problem with terry and the shotos is that doing such command moves in a game structure like Smash doesnt always translate the best.
it works, but not perfect, so you will end up having issues like that unwanted tatsu in the air that costs one stock when you simply wanted to do a Back Air for example.
@@HaxHaunter while i kind of agree, i play other fighters like tekken that use motion inputs on every character, but i play every fighting game but smash on my keyboard using WASD to move, so my muscle memory is worse in smash on ryu or ken but still more effective than me trying to use that sad excuse of a character they try to disguise as falco whos my main in melee
I had known about Ryu and Ken before Terry but because Terry seemed a lot cooler (Buster Wolf and Power Geyser) I got REALLY into shoto characters, then I started playing Ryu and Ken and omg the Shotos are some the most fun characters in the game. I’m also now getting into traditional fighting games now because of them, they’ve become much less daunting than they used to look.
I always saw motion inputs as a game-y simulation of martial arts concepts- the more you practice a move, the quicker and more reliably it comes out when you need it. The quicker it is, the more efficient and difficult to anticipate it is. Demanding the removal of motion inputs for games which utilise them is kind of like wanting to be able to punch as quickly as Bruce Lee without actually learning to.
This doesn't apply for charged inputs unfortunately.
@@TheUnkow well maybe not charging for too much time can be the difference?
@@juanmanuelprietocenador1398 You are right on that one, but it still doesn't apply as much as to the other inputs.
For example you can never do "left, right, attack" and to have the move execute instantly whereas with "down, right, attack" it is instant.
The drawback is that you must charge it at all times unles you want to move, in air, while knocked down, while throwing the opponent etc ... this means the opponent will always have that time as an advantage to know your next strategy ... specially if you are on the same device/room.
They can train against your moves, you cannot train against theirs because while yours and their reflexes get faster ... the charging time remains the same.
SF inputs also feel like the move being done so they feel intuitive. QCF feels like winding up and pushing out a fireball. DP motion feels like walking forward and then pushing off your base for a forceful forward jumping attack. Charging back down or forward gives you a move in the direction of the charge release. Punch and kick buttons correspond with the limbs used to the attack.
It all makes transitioning from characters pretty easy instead of having to remember a bunch of specific target combos for each one.
I thought I was the only one who thought of that
I think one thing he didn't mention is that motions also allow you to have more moves in the game.
Street Fighter already has 6 different normals. You're basically out of buttons for moves unless you add motions into the mix.
The hell? How is a Z motion intuitive to a character doing a rising uppercut? There's no fucking correlation.
The other examples I agree with, but that one is a huge stretch. If it were intuitive there would be an up input somewhere in there. Y'all just repeating whatever shit you hear.
@@Blittsplitt5 its not a Z. It should just be forward then immediately down. If you get the neutral input you are adding on an extra frame of startup. You're only really doing a Z if you aren't able to do it fast enough (which most people cant. I'm only able to do it cuz I've been playing for a while).
@@Blittsplitt5 Two weeks later, it's still not a Z. Walk forward, take your hand off of your movement stick, then start a quarter-circle forward motion. That's it. Just tap forward before doing a fireball motion.
There’s also smaller things, like how you have to leave block to throw a DP. This prevents people from just mashing out of someone’s pressure, or at least makes it even riskier.
Then again, persona and BBTAG have one buttons DPs. BBTAG I can kinda forgive because of that game’s insane pressure but then they made DPs air-unblockable sooooooo...
And persona is just a funny game in general.
"Shadow X is a fair and balanced character"
Alpha 3 also has air-unblockable DP's (in the first few frames) though, I don't see why that's a problem. Movement in BBTAG tends to be so good anyway, it's possible for most characters (even already in midair) to predict/dodge a DP, and there's safe jump setups too.
Pushblock is also done with the DP buttons, and this was intentional so not-attacking can bait a pushblock, which results in a DP.
Scratch Hare Games well, with Alpha 3, DPs use motions, but other than that, you bring up valid points with DP/pushblock baiting.
Both Persona and BBTAG balance those one-button DPs in their own way.
In Persona, using a Reversal takes away life to match the idea that Physical skills in Persona use Health instead of MP.
In BBTAG, getting punished from a Reversal takes away their ability to burst, so they have to take whatever is thrown at them as a result of missing.
most games have auto guard to somewhat help with that a little but you still get caught by low for mashing dp though
Please GOD have a follow up video on your opinion of SF6 modern controls! Does the dmg nerf justify the ease of use?
My biggest complaint about motion inputs is that I wish I could see the control stick physically move around on the move list, instead of just seeing the arrows. I can't parse it sometimes, more visual aid would be great.
Like the practice stick in Arcsys games, but during the match?
Yeah the depiction makes zero sense unless you actually know how to move the stick already. I've always hated that about games which include that control scheme because whenever introduced to those games by someone in the know, they deliberately don't tell you and just say look at the move list... sure buddy >_
I never saw the issue with arrow notation. When I was new, I found them perfectly intuitive. Like what part of down-diagonal-right is unclear, or right-down diagonal? Sticks don't actually have more than 8 directions so don't the motion exactly as it shows gets you exactly the motion you want.
Slowing motion would technically be more incorrect given you aren't actually drawing circles, but boxes with corners and sharp Zs since you run your stick against the square gate on sticks. With hitbox and pad being common options now, and the ps5 dpad being most popular despite not having a circular dpad, using arrows is now even more applicable than curcular depictions.
5:09 "...just like cayenne pepper is not required to make good food."
*CHEF JOHN HAS ENTERED THE CHAT*
this is not a fanbase crossover I expected to see lol
remember, you are the cayenne pepper, of what makes certain fighting games better.
@@Rukoy godtier comment lol
Damn that BILBZY scrubquote clip got really popular huh?
He did say "clip this quote this whatever I don’t care"
Tho yeah rather than attacking the guy himself too much I'm glad this is sorta just an interesting jumping off point for folks like Gerald, Sajam, and even Nihongo Gamer (tho he was also responding to the JP dev roundtable) to have discussions since like this idea is certainly not new. A few years ago I would have even agreed w him.
@@haughtygarbage5848 he said that but he hid the video where he said it so he cares to a degree
Bilbzy did this again?
Didn't he do this already three years ago?
Infamous
@@_Snowflame Yeah but this time he was talking about the possible gameplay mechanics of the new Riot fighting game and what he wishes it would bring. Then spewed his anti execution agenda once again and got flamed for it. I do watch his content from time to time but you can tell from his takes that hes not very informed on competitive fighting games as a whole.
This video suddenly became even more relevant with SF6's modern controls
I heard some KOF players use the end of Leona's crouching animation (it has a small hair sweep motion) as an indicator that her charge is ready.
I used to play some Leona back in the day and that helped me a lot with understanding charge, I've never landed a combo on her though
Its difficult for a new player since there’s nothing intuitive saying you can “drag” the joystick. I didn’t realize until my mid twenties that you didn’t have to have the stick reset to center every time
I get that, pretty sure I had the same thought when I was younger. Luckily some games these days have a neutral indicator in the command lists.
I think part of the problem is that some games show the motion as ⬇️↘️➡️
There's others that just show the quarter circle icon and it's infinitely more clear that you have to drag the joystick in one smooth motion
Yeah those old school arrows that are still used by Tekken confused me too for so long. That clip of the pretzel in tekken 7 made it look even more intimidating. The quarter circle and half circle diagrams in street fighter, dbz, and the like are much more intuitive
@@haughtygarbage5848 then you have the jojoban players going 236 for that motion
Oh god, imagine if that was actually how you had to do those motions. :O
That would be nightmarish and way too tedious and taunting to do than they have any right to be! XP
I wanted to talk about this for a while with motion VS charge:
Honestly I’m kinda mad Vega went from charge to motion in SFV; in my honest opinion I think Vega could do a mix:
Motion Moves:
Barcelona, Crimson Terror, Claw Slice and Command Grab.
Charge:
Sky High Claw, Scarlet Terror(Omega Charge), Rolling Crystal Flash(an alternate roll).
I just wish Omega Dee Jay were a real character, it doesn't really make sense that he's a charge character to me.
Vega going from charge to motion is one of the reasons why I haven't picked up SFV despite its many improvements since launch. That and I don't like the whole claw-on/claw-off thing they added.
DarkGoombaProduction I think some stuff is ok, I like the input for Barcelona better as sometimes it won’t screw up for me. But overall I think he should be a mix
I much prefer Vega with motion inputs, I can't stand charge inputs. The down to up one is especially annoying.
Arkana that’s why I think we should have a mix
Imagine one-button TOTSUGEKI. Then you'll realise why we need motion inputs.
🐬
So... basically that video where the two may players just spam Totsugeki at each other until one falls over? Don't need to imagine that since video evidence already exists.
*Guile in SSF4 3DS has entered the chat*
🐬
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Those examples (esp guile) really illustrate so well something I never really got. As a melee player, I figured motion inputs were just a way of accessing a longer move list of balancing input difficulty vs use, but the strategic layer is so golden!
MY MAN HAS CONSISTENT UPLOADS NOW LETS GO
YEAHHH BOIIIIIIIII
On a scale of 1 to 10 how good is the Steven universe ending.
ZachStarAttack Great lol maybe 8-9 but that’s my bias
@ZachStarAttack 4 or 5, so mediocre because it lacks a proper payoff.
tomstonemale Looking at it objectively you’re absolutely right
Part of the fun of fighting games is the satisfaction of perfectly executing the inputs.
That clip of the grandma doing a raging demon is wholesome AS FUCK
Whenever I play a new character, before I even look at the movelist I just go through all the stock special inputs (including double-QCF) to see what happens, and unless they're a charge character or a grappler I usually find at least 2/3 of their movelist this way.
The day fighting games remove motion inputs it'll stop playing them. One of the things I like the most it's learning to land special moves
Input combination has always been a strength of mine in fighting games, I can memorize them and pull them off reliably but I can never wrap my head around combos. I know what buttons to hit but i like panic and push the button a million times while my guy is throwing is first or second punch and ruin the timing every time.
honestly I feel the same, my hands get too excited and go crazy even though I try to stay calm
i am the opposite can do combos all fine and time it correctly but when i have to do halfcircle forward i always fuck it up well atleast i can do quearter circle so its something.
Are you me?
Something else to take into consideration when discussing directional inputs is the actual physical nature of the controller and how those inputs are read. One way to get into that is to contrast snk games on various platforms and how they control, from the arcade to the gameboy.
I just remembered you could also talk about this in regards to characters like E Honda whose hundred hand slap has been primarily adjusted over time with fighting sticks in mind rather than standard controllers.
It’s Like pause inputs in DMC or bayonetta since they both add more depth to a combat system while still working around a small amount of buttons
and Dante and Bayo ALSO got motion inputs
Playing SNK games for years has trained me to deal with any bullshit motion input other games can throw at me.
Raging Storm?
therapist: Don't Worry, Dog Gamer Doesn't Exist, It can't Hurt you
Dog Gamer: 1:18
thank god they're still around
”Motion inputs are very hard to do… in sf1”
Based.
Scrub here: the reason there's so much contention about special move inputs is there's a mindset that special moves are the only effective moves. Casual players can't combo (unless it's ArcSys where they give you an autocombo mash) or learn strategies and fundamentals, so the thought is you have to rely on big damage attacks to win - hence: fireball spam and low kick sweeps.
So the demand is to have the good attacks be as easy to pull off as the weak/low punches and kicks you don't use anyway.
I said it in another post, but basically fighting games are virtual martial arts. Both take practice and repetition to yield results, and both can be extremely awkward or frustrating when first starting, especially when compared to what higher ranked students might be doing. Motion inputs are only difficult when you first start, but as you become more familiar with your "virtual martial art" you'll be doing things as second nature.
This could just be me misreading your comment; but casuals can and should learn fundamentals, being able to win without trying to understand a game or an entire genre should be considered a failure of the developers. If you expect to win a game of billiards you should know how the game works. Also if a game is designed around making good and strong attacks as easy to perform as the weak ones then why even include the weak attacks? you get better results for the same effort
@@Countdownsmiles casuals pick up games and play them, and most fighting games dont have a textbook of a tutorial to learn fundamentals and everything about the game. and even if they did, casuals would just ignore it and mash anyway
This is the basis of the creation of the smash franchise, and you see the game caters to both casual and competitive well,, even without items
Tekken is best example of a satisfying game for both casual and competitive players. While you mash on the controller, you can do awesome moves and you'll go like, "Wow, that's awesome!" And then you'll try to learn that over and over again.
Regarding huge lists of inputs, part of what makes them scary for me is that even though the stick motions are often repeated across characters, moves, and games, the combinations of stick motion and button inputs don't always carry over between characters within a game. Or maybe they do. I haven't actually played a traditional fighter long enough to scroll through all its move lists. But the point is that it _feels_ like they aren't. This is about them being scary, not about them actually being hard to learn.
A huge reason Smash Bros is so accessible for people like me is that inputs are largely homogenized; you can take the inputs from one character and lay them almost perfectly on top of any other character. Learning how to best use a character's tools of course takes skill, but there are very few moves that a newcomer picking up a character for the first time won't even know how to perform. There's no need to go to a move list and see what's possible. You've always got normal attacks like aerials, tilts, and smashes, and aside from a few weirdos like Link's two-part forward smash, you know exactly what the move does with a single button press. Special moves can be a bit tricky with supplementary inputs (like Fox being able to fly in any direction with his up special) but you still always know how to start them, and any additional inputs can usually be discovered by mashing random buttons and directions.
They actually do. While not all characters have a move assigned to every possible command input, quarter/semicircles, dragon punches (z/shoryuken) double taps and charges are exceedingly common.
Like, for the Steam release of Melty Blood, if the game window isn't 4:3 resolution, the game fills the blank space with an abridged move list for each character, and pretty much everyone has two or three moves with one of the common inputs. Bringing this up as an anecdote of a movelist that you're pretty much forced to see at all times rather than opening it up from a menu
Of course, Smash is the king of homogeneous movesets, with everyone having the exact same inputs, but you'd be surprised at the amount of characters that have a quarter circle and a dragon punch in either direction, or both directions even, in other fighting games.
Considering how you feel I'd recommend you give dragonball fighterz a try. With very few exceptions most motion inputs are just quarter circles with the move depending on what button you press.
Little did they know that motion input is the least difficult part of fighting games
Which is exactly why it's stupid to discourage people by making them complex.
Git gud
@@fernandobanda5734 git gud
Nah. So far they've been my most difficult part. Footsies and mindgames are like child's play until you whiff a command for your hurricane kick and realize that just costed you the game. Or worse with how SF5 is so forgiving at times I had the 2x quarter circle input for my CA somehow turn into a dragon punch. Hilarious in retrospect but infuriating when I see myself pointlessly throw myself into the air. Hilariously I had better luck doing the same move consistently when I tried out Alpha 3 for the first time.
@@starmangalaxy2001 I'd argue there's nothing hard about most motions themselves (until we get into Pretzels and charging diagonally in a 3D space)
But the timing
With a long window
The input wouldn't be hard at all
It's nailing it during a set frame
Timing is the hardest part of execution
I'm just coming back 3 years later to say how criminally amazing the Spice and Wing analogy for fighting games is.
The skepticism seeing “Sidenote” followed by the hype hearing Gerald’s voice.
I do like the actual mechanical depth of "the conditions of the motion affect the strategy/play style of the character" and I wish to know how that applies to a lot of other special moves like the half/full circle for grapplers (I think you can't do them while either standing or sitting?) or like again the infamous Geese pretzel motion (either the enemy gives you a ton of room or the player has just incredibly hand dexterity?). But also the sorta things casuals/superficial critics will never pick up on the subtleties like how "tight" an input can be, why "similar looking moves" can be as different as Guile vs Ryu or even more so the input and move is also the same but the actual usage of moves is different because "this character's normals are built for a different situation than the other character"
I just feel that people have different ways of imaging the input.
To me Geese's input is just the forward half circle back input but you add crouching back before and crouching forward after. (mind the lingo, I don't speak often in FGC forums) then it's a matter of practice and knowing how lenient the game lets you with the inputs.
You can do 360's without jumping, you just either gotta use the 270 degree shortcut, or be really fast on the 360.
as a zangief user, standing 360s are doable
360 motions are misleadingly visualized, you only actually need 6 of the 8 inputs, so usually you do a halfcircle then 1 up direction and press the button. Since the up direction is hit at the same time as your button press you don't actually jump. You can usually do them in either direction tho, which is a unique property of those moves. Pretzel motions aren't really any harder than anything else, they just look weird. I don't think there's that much unique about the input itself, they just keep it around for flavor mostly I think, like Geese is a menacing guy so he gets a menacing looking input for his super, and since very few other characters have that input it feels special that he gets it.
@@vmppvm8763 There are some exceptions especially in old games, but my point wasn't that every game does it that exact way, my point was you don't have to jump
"Motion input gate keeps players!!"
Dog: *throws hadoken*
SF6: And I took offense to that
Bilbzy punching the air rn after watching this
Something that wasn't mentioned at all in all the comments and videos was the input buffer window and how it affects matches. A better player will do a fireball/dp in fewer frames, potentially as a just frame, but when players are stressed out they all have slower inputs. In this way the motion input ties not only the relative skill of your opponent, but also their current emotional state to the efficiency of the moves. Try doing THAT with a single button input.
thats why they made 1 buttons ground dps 10f or slower, or if faster than that then it will be shit
@@sunthi9619 You kinda missed the point. They were talking about how the input speed is dependend of the players physical and emotional state. Essentially creating another variable that makes the game deeper. That naturally goes for dropping combos or missing inputs as well.
Wippo i guess, i just meant that developers created fast dps with players mental state and execution in mind, if people can do the motion for strong dps within 1f all the time then it would be too powerful
@@sunthi9619 Way to hijack the topic, man
Yeah, I don't know how any of that is a plus. You're nervousness already affects your neutral, mind games and other forms of misinput. Overrewarding physical skill is never going to be a good thing for me.
Another great video! Keep them coming, you can talk about anything and I would still watch it. The way you analyze and explain is so satisfying to watch in a professinal format.
Although the charging can still be done while doing an action, or in mid air, as long as you're holding down and do it as soon as you perform the animation, but if you do it wrong you'll end losing the charge.
Which becomes trickier to do since you still require to perform the crouching action for a split second.
I'm a fan of KoF and the Kyokugen team, they've been holding a charging forward kick for quite the years.
I supposed Guile had the same mechanics and after trying it, he does.
Fighting games have come along pretty good.
I believe this is called charge partitioning, and Terry actually carried this advanced mechanic with him into Smash. This makes more sense when you learn that Sakurai got the idea of Smash invites from playing KOF.
seeing your videos is literally the best part of my day.
Personally I like the COD vs CSGO comparison when talking about simplifying motion inputs. A lot of people take Call of Duty seriously (some people a little too much) but most of the guns have little recoil/spray patterns that you have to memorize, making it easier to use most guns. At a higher level, Call of Duty is less about if you outgun your opponent and more about who shoots first. While this still applies to Counter Strike, the fact that you can't just aim at someone's torso and kill them makes it so much deeper than COD. Spray patterns seem so complicated to newer Counter Strike players but a good bit of practice makes it second nature, just like how a DP motion seem so complicated to newer fighting game players. Not only the motion itself but being able to do it on reaction to a jumping opponent. This also applies to CS, where you can control a spray pattern while standing still but in the heat of battle, while rushing B, you may mess up when a CT pokes out of a corner and get one-tapped by a Deagle.
I apologise if seems a bit messy, I'm very tired right now and I can get a bit into this topic without thinking too much.
That's a good equivalent for FPS games, well said.
I think you meant to say that CSGO has spray patterns, not CoD.
Spot on.
bruh i don't know shit about FPS, but *passion* is a universal language, apology denied (bc it was never required in the first place)
@@basic5926 it does
If Brolylegs could play in tournaments with his tongue doing inputs, nobody can complain inputs are too hard.
Well they are to me lol. I can spam the input and the move won’t come out no matter how perfect the input is. And I’m not doing it slow either. That’s why I prefer and excel in games like Tekken and Soul Caliber because the controls actually make sense lol
@@adandyguyinspace5783 the controls make sense you're just bad(depending on the input your talking about) also every 3d fighting game I know about has 3d inputs
@@adandyguyinspace5783 keep in mind that you shouldnt be lifting your hand off the controller when doing inputs
blgdoesthings that doesn’t change the fact that I did the motions and nothing came out. And don’t forget you were bad before you got good at it too, we all start from somewhere. And not every fighting game has those weird inputs, Tekken doesn’t have it.
blgdoesthings I didn’t lift my hand off the controller
I much prefer motion input. The main reason being that when things get super stressful, you're more likely to mess up the inputs. Although it can be frustrating, there's nothing quite like the feeling of maintaining your composure long enough to defeat your opponent while pumped with so much adrenaline.
But there is something to be said about the difficulty in some of SNK's inputs. And I do think a non-motion-input fighting game could still be fun.
Great video, btw - even almost 2 years later.
Also, I think Granblue Versus has a decent compromise... motion inputs for standard play, but shortcuts with cool-downs for those who want easier inputs.
you do know that getting heated happens in games without motion inputs right
@@partlyawesome I'm not suggesting they don't. My point was that when you have the high stress, heated moments AND you have to do motion inputs, you're now having to control your emotions more in order to pull off the motion controls. Whereas, no matter how heated things get, you're always going to be able to pull of a ->+B
One of the main reasons I suck at a lot of games is how much I despise sticks.
They are too long.
A pad like the 3ds would be perfect for fighters, because it gives a lot of control over motion inputs.
Guess I'll switch to hitbox
You guys really do such an excellent job on these videos that if you made a video about chicken wings flavours i'd probably watch it LOL
I've always loved the smear animation on Guile's Slash Kick from SF2. Seeing Mario take a heavy Slash Kick to the face was something I always wanted to see but never realised until now. Thank you
I recently discovered your channel and your insights are so great. I am binging all your videos while I am suppose to be working.
5:10
"Cayenne pepper is not required to make good food"
Chef john: Unacceptable!
Dunking in basketball is gatekeeping because not everyone can jump that high.
Did I just witness a dog did an ex Hadouken
They feel good to do
Great video - as always.
Love your work 👊
I always wanted to play Ivy in Soulcalibur because I'm a shameless degenerate, but back in the earlier SC games I avoided her cause I was scared of her inputs. But with SCVI I finally decided to give her a serious try and went into training mode to learn Summon Suffering and Calamity Symphony. Two things: One, it was surprisingly not as hard to learn as I thought, especially with the ridiculous generosity of the input buffer effectively just letting you spin the stick and land on the right spot to get it pretty consistently. Even without that, it took like a week to get to a comfortable 60% accuracy rating. TWO, though, is that I learned that just because you know some fancy input move doesn't mean anything compared to knowing when to use it.
Just frame moves are much harder than even those two infamous moves, but even those are just a matter of practice and muscle memory and I've gotten to the point of landing them very consistently with Cervantes.
I think the intimidatingly difficult nature of such moves also make them very rewarding to master. It gives you the sense that you are one of the few people who understand and can play the character. There is a sense of commitment. This is why I really enjoyed playing KING in Tekken. I spent literal years learning his throw chains, and they are very satisfying to pull off. Although they were practically impossible at first, over the years they become second nature.
Despite completely sucking at this, this video has sort of given me a new appreciation for motion imputs
I came here just for the Scrubquotes video lmao. Stayed for the Ryu vs Guile and literally made me want to play Guile lmao.
This is my favorite new youtube channel discovery. So good.
Fighting games are pretty much virtual martial arts. In that regard, they require repetition and practice to yield results. Much like real-life combat disciplines, when starting off learning the techniques, it will feel awkward and may even frustrate the player. But with time, it becomes second nature. And again, like real martial arts, it becomes then a game of out-smarting your opponent using whichever virtual MA style you choose.
So basically, put in the time and work. Nobody who trains consistently stays a white belt forever.
and there is no dylan that punches hard as shit in practice even when i order him to not, countles times. Fuck dylan.
@Tony Soprano You don't understand what I said, because you took it too literally, and that's OK.
But it's not my problem.
Exactly, but we’re in the generation of instant gratification and “if I’m not good right away, i should just quit” mentality. It’s infuriating.
@@BooserBoi That's probably why the Virtua Fighter series hasn't kept up. It's the closest of all the franchises to Flyzoola's description, but as such, less flashy and more time-consuming to learn and appreciate.
To add to the Ryu vs Guile classic match up, that is one where you don't see special moves in a vacuum. To allude from a wisdom of a bearded former FG player, the key to exploiting a strong move is to use movement with it in relation to spacing. So Ryus want to chuck plasma from afar and approach a defensive Guile to bait out their charge with tools that move them forward (dragon punch) or moves that they can buffer from a crouching state (hadouken or tatsu). Which so happens cr. MK can cancel to a Hadouken (having one part of the motion down) so Ryu can also deal damage if he gets that opening from a low.
For Guile besides the shoto kill concepts, he has various command normals from pressing forward (or another direction) and attack. Knee Bazooka can be executed pressing back + short and its a solid moving horizontal attack that allows you to charge a sonic boom so you can unleash it afterwards (has different applications in SFV). He has others that allow him to move so there are options to get into space for rush down opportunities. So in the end it becomes less about the complexity of the move and other aspects like spacing, timing, approach and defense become an integral part to playing the game. You can't have one without the other aspects to excel at playing the game.
1:17 to give you an idea as to how great that kid was at playing KOF 13 he wrecked like 3 dudes he was using the team Ex.Iori/Reg.Kyo/Shen.
Your "the need for community" video is absolutely AMAZING! My favorite analysis video. Please keep doing more of it
It's fun, that's why.
For people saying it's gatekeeping, doesn't every genre gatekeep in some form. FPS games require you to be accurate or you'll always be outshot. Driving sims expect you to know how to efficiently drift and switch gears. RPGs expect you to know their rock-paper-scissors mechanism along with their personal lore. And then there is the genre I can't stand: Real time strategy games. Knowing how to maintain resources, knowing where to spend your money, knowing where to send your squad, knowing which squad type is more effective on which enemy base, maintaining barriers in sync with the production of weapons and soldiers so my base doesn't get outnumbered, and so on. Instead of demanding easier RTS games, I just don't play them. And that's okay. If a person does not want to play fighting games with inputs, there are games without those like Fantasy Strike, Rising Thunder, Footsies, and Dive Kick.
Don't forget Smash.
embarrassing
@@Neiroe May I ask what's embarrassing?
@@nerdyneedsalife8315 not being able to play RTS
@@Neiroe Eh I'm not embarrassed
Love these videos man!
Fascinating, thanks for the video!
I think one issue people have is that CPUs can do special moves without motion inputs.
It tooks me hours to master potemkin buster but now i can do it consitintaly rven with my eyes closed and I feel like a god. They are hard but they are fullfilling the acheive!
POTEMKINNNNNN BUSTERRRRR!!!
Thank you soooo much for the value.
4:13 I was wondering where you were going to go with this and i' m glad you were open minded at the option of having different ways to do special moves. I really loved Rising Thunder, I still have the community edition and i' m anxious to see what Riot does with their game.
“Like Guile, he cannot walk forward and do a special attack”
SF4 3ds port: “Allow us to introduce ourselves”
That's true, there, you can spam it as you wish, hahahaha
Yup - SFIV 3DS was also one of the worst fighting game experiences.
The first time I was hit by the Shun Goku Satsu it blew my mind. Playing SF3 III Strike on Dreamcast, my best friend had one of HIS friends over, and I'm playing him Ryu vs his Gouki. I'm winning (I was generally a better player than my friend's friend even at that level) but he did this cool super move, that I knew I had to "block"
Well, I learned you can't block that move, and it completely got my attention. I wans't pissed, I didn't feel cheated. I'm like "What the hell was that!" Not only that, the "command" was completely unlike all the others I had learned so far. And needless to say, I've been a soul felt Gouki main. Walking the line of low health/stamina, where a few mistakes costs you the match, demanding skill, precision, and a ruthless aggression, it felt like a high risk high reward playstyle that rewarded my effort.
Now a days, Smash Bros players crying about QCF inputs? People playing a PARTY game competatively complaining about actual fighting game mechanics? The bigger humanity becomes, the smaller the human becomes. Each new generation has the net sum of all human knowledge in the palm of their hand, yet are becoming dumber and dumber, settle for less, and each generation tries a bit less than the last and gives up a bit quicker than the last.
It's real discouraging listening to someone try to explain why "Motion Inputs" is bad design. Like.....there's dumb, and there's stupid......but then there's the smug idiot. Who's entirely wrong, yet so absolutely convinced they are right, they will never see things any other way.
This channel my god. It never disappoints me. Amazing job!
This takes me back to the mid 90's, when I was just a sweaty kid playing sf2 turbo on my megadrive (genesis).
I remember I used to crank the speed up, take ryu against blanka... I forget whether it was in some kind of training mode or if it was just vs, but I used to get him to use his cannonball from the other side of the screen & I used to shoryuken him out of it.
With the speed on turbo cranked up it was a challenge & (with no accurate frame of reference) I got pretty good at it.
Part of my perceived expertise is no doubt down to sega's 6 button genesis pad (to this day I don't think I've handled a better d-pad for fighting games).
Anyway, it's a very fond memory (even if it's a little fuzzy these days), and it wouldn't exist without a special move system that required a little practice & expertise in execution. If shoryuken only required a single button press: where's the progression in that?
A game requires to have some kind of a progression system in order to have any kind of longevity; there has to be a ladder that you climb.
Sometimes this is a literal progression (like leveling up in an rpg) & sometimes it's a progression of skill & knowledge.
Far form being gatekeeping, learning to perform the special moves is the first rung on that ladder and a really easy way to give players a sense of accomplishment & feeling of progression. Personally I don't see the merit in ever removing that.
This is all a very good argument for any sort of difficulty, and it truly makes those moments of growth shine.
But why does it have to be about inputs for an essential attack? Being able to do a Shoryuken isn't even a tenth of the road towards becoming a decent player, it's the absolute bare minimum. Shoryuken is also a very basic tool that helps under a lot of circumstances and teachers risk reward because it's so unsafe to mess it up. Beginners who still struggle to do a Shoryuken are not playing the game and missing out on advanced features, they are at best not playing the game fully and at worst being given an unfair disadvantage compared to someone who has those options.
Something that's also important to note is that special moves are very cool. If you place two kids and give them one-button specials, they are going to spam them and love it. If you give it to a beginner, they are going to use it at a wrong time and learn, and immediately form opinions over characters they enjoy after trying them out. Motion inputs put a hard block on all of these people. It's kinda like learning how to play chess except every time you make a move you have to also fry an egg correctly, or learning to play tennis but you need to do a math question first. It divides the attention, stops you from having the minimum fun and access to the game, and ultimately discourages A LOT of people.
Frame-perfect combos, cancelling moves, parrying and learning counterplay are much better suited to be this "hidden tech" that you progress towards. Special moves are essential and fun and could afford to be as easy as possible.
This reminds me that I used to have some weird version of SF2 for MSDOS where Guile's moves didn't have the charge property on them so you could just tap a direction and then the opposite and push a button and the move would come out... And the move itself had the exact same properties so Guile was insanely OP.
All motion inputs are not created equal. There’s a reason the fireball survived and the pretzel didn’t.
I don't know what this says about me but I really want to play SNK after watching this video.
But the pretzel did survive
There's a reason we talk about it today and not all the other weird inputs the early Fatal Fury games have
There's still games with the Pretzel, but now in the last 5~ years I guess.
@@jauntyfgc415 like Duck King's death move? i almost never made that work in fatal fury special...
Great video dude, keep them coming. Especially with SFV being 'free' upcoming month I'll be sending all my friends who're willing to try the game to your channel!
Blessed with 3 Core a gaming videos on my birthday month 👍🏿