I don’t think the majority of your followers will use these tools as our main tools Jono. As a drummer myself I could hate people using the Logic drummer, but I don’t. But then since being a drummer, I struggle quite a bit with keys … having these tools and knowing that I can get a much better starting point with the sessions players, I will most certainly use them . Knowing that I can tweak every single note by tapping P and also use the midi input from my keyboard for chords I have ‘found on my own”. It will hopefully save me lots of time to be creative rather than struggling technically with the instruments I don’t master.
This is the correct attitude. I think most people see this as a replacement tool. I think of how film scores are made, first it's all written in a DAW then taken to the hall & recored by the orchestra over the time period of x days. this is the same thing. It gives the user the ability to get some stuff down & tuned without having to speak to your drummer & convey what you want hoping said drummer will know what you mean & has the knowledge & skill to do what you want. with tools like this you can do all the developing of the important bits & then play it to a drummer & most likely it can be replicated!
I’m a singer songwriter comfortable with an acoustic guitar and basic music theory. I have depended heavily on logic drummer and composed rudimentary bass lines on midi with standard logic instruments usually upright bass. Similar with keys according to my chord structures etc. the session bass instrument options takes me to a new level with slide notes, slap and growl effects and the player knows bass lines that I don’t so I am very happy with it with careful editing. Same with the keys. Creative impulses hopefully still intact!
Some people use these tools because they have given up on forming a band from hypothetical serious musicians. Some people don't want to spend any more time trying to explain a non-traditional music or sound design concept to people trained in "traditional" music. I am a poet who works with very professional musicians. But when I want to try or do something out of the box, I choose these tools. When I need to try new things and for example, see if the composition would be better with a french horn or a sax or a trumpet, I choose these tools. There are lots of reasons to use these tools. These are just a few. That said, I respect the reasons you state for not using them.
Hi Jono, Thank you very much for this very useful video! You started a very valuable discussion! I completely agree with your thoughts about AI. It is fine with me that there are now session players for keys and bass, but I will never use these. Until now I sometimes used the drums that Logic provides and the simple reason for that is that I am not a drummer and - if I was - I haven't the tools and the space to record real drums. Music making for me is all about creativity, exploring new territories in music, sometimes creating my own samples, making harmonies myself, sometimes getting lost in the process and therefore deleting recorded tracks and starting all over again because the result didn't satisfy me, etc. As always, thank you very much!!
Hi Peter. Absolutely - you can hover over the bottom right-hand corner of the Session Player region and drag it to the right to increase its length. Or, if you need a gap between sections, simply click with the Pencil Tool wherever you need a new Session Region to start.
A large part of the process when I'm making my particular brand of music is having those "Happy accidents". Things that technically shouldn't work or clash. I can't see any AI being able to do this - nor would I want it to. It's my creation and my private revelation. As always, enjoy these videos and the discussion. Cheers!
As a guitarist I’ve certainly found the Logic drummer to be very useful and customisable. Although I’ve taught myself some keyboard chords, I’m not very proficient at playing for a number of bars without making a mistake. I’ve yet to experiment with using the session keyboard or bass player for a guitar based composition, because I’ve found the Logic chord function clunky. They could prove be useful for getting the creative juices flowing once the chords have been put into place, or for complimenting an existing composition, if used carefully. Having said that I do agree with your observations regarding using the session musicians for creating an entire track. I’m guessing that the session musicians will be useful for folk who haven’t learned to play an instrument, or who perhaps are unable to play an an instrument, due to a disability.
First, I think these “AI” tools are good for learning. Generate some parts, listen to them, analyze them, reshape them to suit your tastes. Then, one can look at this as fun and entertaining - for many people, more fun than trying to compose music from scratch - not everyone is that creative or even cares to compose their own music. And if you’re a instrumentalist rather than a Beethoven, you’ve got a backing band at your beck and call. In the old days, we wrote music for a band of some kind, and with general directions, relied on or allowed the rhythm section to play their individual parts. It’s only today that composers/arrangers feel they must control every aspect of the music. To me, Logic session players are similar, but I have much more control over them than years ago. Convert to MIDI, and the control is whatever I want it to be. Ultimately, people will do what satisfies, and use whatever tools are available to reach that end. If AI becomes boring or isn’t making music that is personal and inspires, then it will be abandoned or used in more limited ways by creative types wanting better.
Another very good video thank you, and once again informative and well-said. From my own perspective, sometimes I open Logic with the sole intention of playing with / creating sound, and other times my focus is composition. If you add these Session Players as another tool to knock around some basic building-block ideas, this adds another option to your available choices for the day. Having all these choices is a good thing to get a musical ball rolling, but only a self-penned composition really hits the bullseye, IMHO.
Personally I wouldnt use those tools for the reasons you have stated, and agree that for backing tracks to have a quick jam too, they would be OK. I would be interested in your thoughts on Splice samples for starting the creative process, as i do use the create feature in splice to get ideas .
I don't see how it's meaningfully different than a sample pack. I generally don't use those, but this feels more like I'm in control and making custom sounds. Also, you don't just have to let the robot do everything. You can use it for inspiration, to craft new sections/fills and then modify them yourself.
Great video, Jono, about a contentious feature! For me, art is an indulgent form of expression. A moment of one particular person's experiences at that particular moment in time. AI is, obviously, not that! But if someone is using it for rehearsing or practicing I can definitely see the benefits of it.
Extremely well reasoned point of view Jono that I would echo. What interests me is why with such a major update did the makers of Logic decide to follow this route? I've always looked upon Logic as a professional piece of software that has almost limitless creative potential. Perhaps it's just me being a little outdated and a composer who still uses a pencil and manuscript, but isn't this a wasted opportinuty from the programmers? There is also the unerving question of what comes next in terms of AI 'creative' options and what challenges they will present to the world of education?
Great video, Jono. I agree with your commentary. Whilst I’ve found the session drummer to be a lazy way for me to get a quick beat going (with the intention of going back later and doing the drums properly from scratch), these AI tools remind me of my family’s first organ when I was a kid. It came with various rhythms that were a gimmicky way to play along with something like a bossanova. The more we rely on this stuff for composition, the lazier we get and we lose all sense of creativity. What’s the point of that? It’s boring if nothing else. Perhaps the best we can do, as you’ve already demonstrated is to do some magic with the tiny building blocks and make something new out of that. Otherwise, if I could delete these session players from Logic and get back precious memory then I would in a heartbeat.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts. After having arranged a few songs with AI, I also see this danger of the coming uniformity of compositions and the convenience that makes your own creativity lazy. Nevertheless, it is a useful helper as long as you retain creative control by yourself. Thank you 🙏
you are absolutely correct! even tho i am a good guitarist, a pretty good singer, a passable bass player, a minimal keyboard player, i'm going to spend the next 5 years learning to play the piano, then 5 years learning violin, then 5 years learning trumpet, then 5 years learning viola, then 5 years with a vocal coach. i'm a terrible drummer, so i'll have to use drummer. after that, i'll be able to start my own creations. note that i'm 75 years old presently so i should be able to make my own creations when i'm 95! let's get started! so what you assume is that everyone is a multi instrumentalist!
I like to add a bit of free playing session piano for background accents and seasoning, low in the mix, and that's it. I have built a few songs with this tool and it comes out boring, not from a compositional standpoint, (experimenting with chords that i don't have to play in with my clumsy mitts is very inspirational) but the sessions player itself, no matter how you tweak it, is very vanilla and samey-same and I end up either replacing with my own musicianship (poor but mine) or scrapping the project and keeping the bits I invented; lyrics, guitar, chord progs or whatever I liked). I might still use it to see how things sound as a band, but I'd never present any of it as my work. It's way too boring.
I've been using the chord track to help produce musical compositions. The latest uses some "strange" chords that Logic AI does not use!! B flat 7/9, Gm 7/9/13, G aug 7/9, G7/9/13 are just some of them. The chord sequences generated straight out of the box are basic and need a lot of work to get them to sound anything like a finished work. Also, once the chord structure has been produced, it can be "dragged" onto a midi track, which can be used to add different instruments beyond the piano that Logic gives you as a starter. Some of the "synth" sounds that I have produced are starting to sound interesting. Yes, the AI tools are in Logic, as you said, are OK for producing backing tracks, but creativity comes from using the chord track. In addition, if you have a MIDI keyboard, you can generate chords on the keyboard and input those into the chord track. In essence, this takes away using the AI tools that Logic comes with and introducing your own creativity.
Jono, absolutely agree. As creators, it is up to us to "fight the good fight" and resist using these tools. I have this dismal image of a post-apocalyptic future where corporate pukes use AI to avoid having to deal with composers and musicians. Will some labels market themselves as using only "real" musicians and composers? Will their extra costs make them uncompetitive as compared to a company that uses some super computer running 24/7? Yes, folks can use these tools to create backing tracks. We are driven to do this because it is so freaking difficult to make a living as a musician and it's just cheaper to use these automatons. What have we lost by not working with real musicians? Done with rant.
Thanks so much, but I don‘t think I will use these tools in my compositions except the drummer who/which I always used so far in my music. The composition must always come from me, not from AI or KI (as called in Austria).
I feel I still spend a lot of time experimenting with Logic. I feel it’s really the only way to learn, in the end. There was a moment setting out with AI SI I felt it was pretty much the same as any facet of Logic; listening and twiddling knobs until I understood and found things I liked. But there’s also a point after that where I start feeling annoyed at the limitations, start a new instrument, and do it myself. Honestly, I am glad I do. Because I do agree with JoBu’s sentiment that there is joy in the exploration and discovery. Maybe it was a jumping off point. I wish it wasn’t. I think there’s something insidious about it. It appeals to my laziness. Which honestly isn’t new with LPX11, because composing drum is a bit of a weak spot for me and the AI drummer has been there for a bit already. Also also, I generally try not to listen to music when I am in the creation mode, and working with the AI SI feels more like listening and judging rather than making. Also^3, I enjoy the philosophical vibe of this video, but I also miss the creative input. Have spent some time messing with the AI SI, trying to mess it up with various trimming and plugins and what have you… This wore on a bit. I yield my time😛
This AI stuff is scary yet amazing at the same time. I’ve seen it go from a bunch of hardware strung up with cables to a laptop.. what’s it going to mean to session musicians?
I think I basically agree with this. Though I feel a bit hypocritical for basically having not at all cared about the drummer, to then being quite put out by the keyboard and bass players... Maybe it comes back to jono's point around composition - I use the drummer to make beats for songs that I've already "written" from a melodic point of view.
There's a limitation to everything, The session player is for people who don't know music theory or the details but want something to assist or jump start. They are many tools out there that act like A.I and also assist people with their creativity before the session player came along like Splice and Scaler, all are tools to make creating music quicker (maybe not the best quality) and easier for more people
Oooh, I think this video will get lots of comments. Don’t mention the war 😂 My own take, I play guitar , bass and keys (badly) and wouldn’t dream of using the session keyboard or bass players when I have the ability to play myself. When it comes to session drummer my opinions differ, I typically synch the drummer to my bass, tweak the sliders till I like what I’m hearing, then convert to midi and tweak, particularly finessing fills. I’d then process the bejaysus out of them (parallel comp/ verb, eq, comp) to make them sound authentic. I think this application is ok given I don’t have a kit at home. But each to their own I suppose. I hope people have the intelligence to not just use stock presets, even the 3 tracks you demo’s just sounded off, I can’t put my finger on it.
As a beginner producer and a big fan of yours, AI is definitely scary in ways that aid companies to make more money. I was checking out an original techno adjacent Spotify playlist a couple days ago and weirdly enough all the songs sounded the exact same, so I investigated and my suspicion was right on. They were pretty much all AI-made. Which got me wondering why Spotify would allow something like this on their platform but then it hit me lol. I guess the only positive side of this is that they weren’t particularly good and sounded like one big 30-40 minute song, but unfortunately it will get better with time. I can see how this can spill into the music making process itself and I urge people to use their creative minds a bit more but I’m way more concerned with people just bypassing this process altogether.
Ok Jono, you asked what I think! and presumably that includes what I don’t think … The Emperors New Clothes! 1) I don’t think this is AI at all, how it got that title bemuses me and yet almost everyone seems to be calling it AI. I can only think it is a ploy by Apple to do what they enjoy doing most i.e. making more and more profit. 2) Surely AI would be telling your computer what you want to hear as a composition and then executing that with a simple command. Sort of akin to the art / visual AI apps. So I think this addition to Logic Pro is just another step in automated rhythm and harmony creation, albeit slightly more versatile and sophisticated than previous incarnations. It should definitely not be cited as AI. 3) I have started using this new feature, not as a composition tool but as an additional ideas pool to potentially add to my compositions. I find it fascinating as such, to quickly throw musical ideas into my work which are completely outside/beyond my musical instrument abilities. Some I use, by twisting editing and shaping them to suit or throw away as not irrelevant. Either way, this method is proving expedient. 4) I think, in the not too distant future, we will be hearing compositions that we don’t know were created with these sort of tools or not and especially more so when AI is properly implemented. Even these tools now open up a huge potential for experimentation and if combined with personalisation will potentially render impressive results. I like your videos and presentation style and was pleased to see you ventured into this topic but surely it must be time to admit this is not really AI at all! 😮
I’m not convinced that ‘artificial intelligence’ isn’t a fitting descriptor, even if there’s an established technical definition of AI that this doesn’t fit. What I’m suggesting is that the correct technical definition is a side issue; it’s just semantics. The decisions that Logic is making are drawn from collated libraries of stylistic traits drawn from various musical styles. Logic may not be accessing and formulating solutions in precisely the same way that ChatGTP or other AI apps do but the relationship between it and human creativity are the same. Whether we call it AI or something else, we surrender our thought and invention to it. Declassifying it to call it non-AI doesn’t alter that exchange or lessen any discomfort we might feel about that surrender.
@@garygimmestad4272 Thanks for your response Gary. Because I sometimes make statements that go against the grain I usually get negative and even have received angry remarks. Yours though is measured and considerate and you conveyed your reasoning very well … It feels like we have a situation where we can happily agree to disagree over this. Even though I still advocate it ain’t AI and people are simply jumping on a bandwagon stating it is. Even the Emperor was fooled 🙃 I do see and understand the points you raise and mostly agree. I suppose I am looking a bit ahead to a time where musical composition AI (in the sense it is supposed to be meant) will only require a few prompts, and violá, a completed AI composition! That wouldn’t be befitting for an app like Logic though because it is basically a user interface DAW. I do like and enjoy experimenting with these automated features in 11. I am starting to discover the possibilities of their function. They will definitely play a role in my music and hopefully the listener will never know😎 Regards. Ray.
The real question, is WHY are you creating music in the first place? Is it for the human experience of it? Connecting to that inner voice that stirs an emotional response when you hear ratios of frequencies that please you? If that’s the case, then whatever feels good to you, you should do. It’s more unique and rewarding and original if you figure it out yourself. That said, since the mind works quicker than the fingers do, why not use it away well? Or is the goal a hit record? If it is, then the End justifies the means. I’ve sat in the studio where the producer did nothing other than sit on the couch and tell everyone else what to play. Isn’t that essentially the same thing as having an AI session player do the bass part? So in conclusion, I see nothing wrong with it, and I just see it as another tool. But for me, 97% of the time, I end up playing something better and more appropriate than what’s generated. But I contradict myself as well, because I’ve been using Superior drummer grooves for years! Anyway, great info, thanks. And great discussion 🙌
We were using similar tech in the nineties with a Roland PMA 5. No one went crazy about folk using that, so what’s the difference ? Is it just because we now call it AI? Weird. Anything it gets folk creating songs what does it matter? The next thing you know they’ll be making guitars electric 😳😂
Great video and I agree with your points. I feel that, unfortunately, these tools will be used in place of the creative process, they'll be used, knowingly or not, to forward the process of what I feel is the "safe" approach within the music industry right now. In my opinion, a lot of what is released in the pop/music world is disposable, repetitive and mediocre and I don't see any indications that this approach might be disrupted, these tools propagate this safe approach to mediocrity. That doesn't mean I think everything is futile, the creative process can take many shapes and forms and the feeling of discovery is amazing and as artists we won't allow that to be lost or. These are tools that can be useful, but in the grand scheme of things they should be kept "smallen"! Thanks Jono.
For all my homies cowering in the corner when they hear “ai” in Logic Pro: The session players don’t feel like “ai” to me at all. Mostly algorithmic changes based on where you place a slider. The follow rhythm of other ideas is cool, but honestly, the session players are extremely limited in terms of what I would WANT to be able to achieve with them. I’ve managed to make some solid basslines with LOTS of changes and work/deliberation with the session bass player for an atmospheric jungle song. I feel like almost everything these session tools were originally designed to make is basically Nickleback Cookie-cutter music. It’s very difficult to slap it on a song and make it induce “rave” vibes, right away. They’re great tools, but they’re tools. I’ve been playing a lot of Elden ring lately, so I’m constantly surrounded by Ai enemies right now 😂 I gotta tell ya, I sense 0 intelligence, artificial or not, going on behind the decision making of how the session players are programmed to work
I'll put my hand up and say I use the session keyboard player. Why...because it can "play" a part way better than I can. BUT...I want to be the one to work out the bones of the part. I use Session Player in exactly the way one would use a human session player: "play this chord progression, but play it better than I can."
You are entitled to your point of view, but I think these AI composition tools are fantastic and have unleashed my compositional creativity. I also use AI in software coding and research on topics I'm interested in. Humanity's tools and creativity are exploding and I find it almost offensive to be told I shouldn't be using these tools. Popular music has been garbage/dead for twenty years or more anyway, without these AI tools - maybe this is a doorway into a rejuvenated music scene.
These are not strictly artificial intelligence. They don't create. They are just a very sophisticated way of interacting with pre existing loops through a large set of input parameters. Really no different to what already existed in Drummer. More sophisticated perhaps, but not a paradigm shift. AI is merely a sales pitch here, which perhaps puts off as many people as it turns on. In the end they are just another instrument, another creative tool that you need to learn to play just as much as the mandolin you just got for twenty quid down the second hand shop. The human still creates here. Without your touch the session players are inert and silent as the grave.
AI may be much, but it’s not creative. I’m a guitarist nowadays. Before that I was a drummer, before that I played the Euphonium, before that I played the cornet. Before that, in the very beginning, I watched my dad literally write music on a piece of paper. The few times I’ve looked into these session features in Logic, I’ve ended up making the entire tracks from scratch, because I want something they can’t and/or won’t give. Wether it’s a rythm pattern, arpeggio, or chords, this technology is failing big time on me. I’m not a virtuoso in any shape or form, but I understand music more than enough to know that AI will never be capable of replacing the good old fashion real life musician in flest and blood. Because ut’s an art form that requires a free mind in order to be shaped. Without a free mind sitting at the helm with both hands placed steady on the wheel, music will sieze to excist.
Also the fourth, I do enjoy telling the stupid AI to get out of the way because I know what I want and how to do it, after fiddling with its knobs for a bit🥴🤷
Ai should be used with a wize way Human have always make music with passion Ai cant copy passion never. so i stick to the old way to make music my own imagination, but for those who see potensial in Ai and use it in a clever way is ok, i stick to make my own music without use of Ai. .
How is the innovative use of AI beyond its peers “dumbing down” the software? I’m just happy the had a meaningful update for the first time in a decade
I don’t think the majority of your followers will use these tools as our main tools Jono. As a drummer myself I could hate people using the Logic drummer, but I don’t. But then since being a drummer, I struggle quite a bit with keys … having these tools and knowing that I can get a much better starting point with the sessions players, I will most certainly use them . Knowing that I can tweak every single note by tapping P and also use the midi input from my keyboard for chords I have ‘found on my own”. It will hopefully save me lots of time to be creative rather than struggling technically with the instruments I don’t master.
This is the correct attitude.
I think most people see this as a replacement tool.
I think of how film scores are made, first it's all written in a DAW then taken to the hall & recored by the orchestra over the time period of x days.
this is the same thing. It gives the user the ability to get some stuff down & tuned without having to speak to your drummer & convey what you want hoping said drummer will know what you mean & has the knowledge & skill to do what you want.
with tools like this you can do all the developing of the important bits & then play it to a drummer & most likely it can be replicated!
I’m a singer songwriter comfortable with an acoustic guitar and basic music theory. I have depended heavily on logic drummer and composed rudimentary bass lines on midi with standard logic instruments usually upright bass. Similar with keys according to my chord structures etc. the session bass instrument options takes me to a new level with slide notes, slap and growl effects and the player knows bass lines that I don’t so I am very happy with it with careful editing. Same with the keys. Creative impulses hopefully still intact!
Some people use these tools because they have given up on forming a band from hypothetical serious musicians. Some people don't want to spend any more time trying to explain a non-traditional music or sound design concept to people trained in "traditional" music. I am a poet who works with very professional musicians. But when I want to try or do something out of the box, I choose these tools. When I need to try new things and for example, see if the composition would be better with a french horn or a sax or a trumpet, I choose these tools. There are lots of reasons to use these tools. These are just a few.
That said, I respect the reasons you state for not using them.
Hi Jono, Thank you very much for this very useful video! You started a very valuable discussion! I completely agree with your thoughts about AI. It is fine with me that there are now session players for keys and bass, but I will never use these. Until now I sometimes used the drums that Logic provides and the simple reason for that is that I am not a drummer and - if I was - I haven't the tools and the space to record real drums. Music making for me is all about creativity, exploring new territories in music, sometimes creating my own samples, making harmonies myself, sometimes getting lost in the process and therefore deleting recorded tracks and starting all over again because the result didn't satisfy me, etc. As always, thank you very much!!
Great video, thanks, Jono! Any thoughts or ideas on how to expand the default 8-bar Session Player to cover more measures or even the entire song?
Hi Peter. Absolutely - you can hover over the bottom right-hand corner of the Session Player region and drag it to the right to increase its length. Or, if you need a gap between sections, simply click with the Pencil Tool wherever you need a new Session Region to start.
@@jonobuchananmusic Thanks so much!
A large part of the process when I'm making my particular brand of music is having those "Happy accidents". Things that technically shouldn't work or clash. I can't see any AI being able to do this - nor would I want it to. It's my creation and my private revelation.
As always, enjoy these videos and the discussion. Cheers!
100% agree with your comments . Does an individuals creativity come from the soul and heart , I know mine does .
Jono....
I needed to hear all of this mate...
I've been editing instead of creating for a long time...
Time to change...
🙂
Brilliantly put!
Thanks for the update 😃
As a guitarist I’ve certainly found the Logic drummer to be very useful and customisable. Although I’ve taught myself some keyboard chords, I’m not very proficient at playing for a number of bars without making a mistake. I’ve yet to experiment with using the session keyboard or bass player for a guitar based composition, because I’ve found the Logic chord function clunky. They could prove be useful for getting the creative juices flowing once the chords have been put into place, or for complimenting an existing composition, if used carefully. Having said that I do agree with your observations regarding using the session musicians for creating an entire track. I’m guessing that the session musicians will be useful for folk who haven’t learned to play an instrument, or who perhaps are unable to play an an instrument, due to a disability.
First, I think these “AI” tools are good for learning. Generate some parts, listen to them, analyze them, reshape them to suit your tastes.
Then, one can look at this as fun and entertaining - for many people, more fun than trying to compose music from scratch - not everyone is that creative or even cares to compose their own music. And if you’re a instrumentalist rather than a Beethoven, you’ve got a backing band at your beck and call.
In the old days, we wrote music for a band of some kind, and with general directions, relied on or allowed the rhythm section to play their individual parts. It’s only today that composers/arrangers feel they must control every aspect of the music. To me, Logic session players are similar, but I have much more control over them than years ago. Convert to MIDI, and the control is whatever I want it to be.
Ultimately, people will do what satisfies, and use whatever tools are available to reach that end. If AI becomes boring or isn’t making music that is personal and inspires, then it will be abandoned or used in more limited ways by creative types wanting better.
Another very good video thank you, and once again informative and well-said.
From my own perspective, sometimes I open Logic with the sole intention of playing with / creating sound, and other times my focus is composition.
If you add these Session Players as another tool to knock around some basic building-block ideas, this adds another option to your available choices for the day.
Having all these choices is a good thing to get a musical ball rolling, but only a self-penned composition really hits the bullseye, IMHO.
Personally I wouldnt use those tools for the reasons you have stated, and agree that for backing tracks to have a quick jam too, they would be OK. I would be interested in your thoughts on Splice samples for starting the creative process, as i do use the create feature in splice to get ideas .
I don't see how it's meaningfully different than a sample pack.
I generally don't use those, but this feels more like I'm in control and making custom sounds.
Also, you don't just have to let the robot do everything. You can use it for inspiration, to craft new sections/fills and then modify them yourself.
Great video, Jono, about a contentious feature!
For me, art is an indulgent form of expression. A moment of one particular person's experiences at that particular moment in time. AI is, obviously, not that! But if someone is using it for rehearsing or practicing I can definitely see the benefits of it.
Nailed it. I totally agree with your video.
Extremely well reasoned point of view Jono that I would echo. What interests me is why with such a major update did the makers of Logic decide to follow this route? I've always looked upon Logic as a professional piece of software that has almost limitless creative potential. Perhaps it's just me being a little outdated and a composer who still uses a pencil and manuscript, but isn't this a wasted opportinuty from the programmers? There is also the unerving question of what comes next in terms of AI 'creative' options and what challenges they will present to the world of education?
Great video, Jono. I agree with your commentary. Whilst I’ve found the session drummer to be a lazy way for me to get a quick beat going (with the intention of going back later and doing the drums properly from scratch), these AI tools remind me of my family’s first organ when I was a kid. It came with various rhythms that were a gimmicky way to play along with something like a bossanova. The more we rely on this stuff for composition, the lazier we get and we lose all sense of creativity. What’s the point of that? It’s boring if nothing else. Perhaps the best we can do, as you’ve already demonstrated is to do some magic with the tiny building blocks and make something new out of that. Otherwise, if I could delete these session players from Logic and get back precious memory then I would in a heartbeat.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts. After having arranged a few songs with AI, I also see this danger of the coming uniformity of compositions and the convenience that makes your own creativity lazy. Nevertheless, it is a useful helper as long as you retain creative control by yourself. Thank you 🙏
you are absolutely correct! even tho i am a good guitarist, a pretty good singer, a passable bass player, a minimal keyboard player, i'm going to spend the next 5 years learning to play the piano, then 5 years learning violin, then 5 years learning trumpet, then 5 years learning viola, then 5 years with a vocal coach. i'm a terrible drummer, so i'll have to use drummer. after that, i'll be able to start my own creations. note that i'm 75 years old presently so i should be able to make my own creations when i'm 95! let's get started!
so what you assume is that everyone is a multi instrumentalist!
2:20 "Smallen? Always making up words on this channel" 😂 👍🏻
I like to add a bit of free playing session piano for background accents and seasoning, low in the mix, and that's it. I have built a few songs with this tool and it comes out boring, not from a compositional standpoint, (experimenting with chords that i don't have to play in with my clumsy mitts is very inspirational) but the sessions player itself, no matter how you tweak it, is very vanilla and samey-same and I end up either replacing with my own musicianship (poor but mine) or scrapping the project and keeping the bits I invented; lyrics, guitar, chord progs or whatever I liked). I might still use it to see how things sound as a band, but I'd never present any of it as my work. It's way too boring.
I've been using the chord track to help produce musical compositions. The latest uses some "strange" chords that Logic AI does not use!! B flat 7/9, Gm 7/9/13, G aug 7/9, G7/9/13 are just some of them. The chord sequences generated straight out of the box are basic and need a lot of work to get them to sound anything like a finished work. Also, once the chord structure has been produced, it can be "dragged" onto a midi track, which can be used to add different instruments beyond the piano that Logic gives you as a starter. Some of the "synth" sounds that I have produced are starting to sound interesting. Yes, the AI tools are in Logic, as you said, are OK for producing backing tracks, but creativity comes from using the chord track. In addition, if you have a MIDI keyboard, you can generate chords on the keyboard and input those into the chord track. In essence, this takes away using the AI tools that Logic comes with and introducing your own creativity.
True words!!!!
Jono, absolutely agree. As creators, it is up to us to "fight the good fight" and resist using these tools. I have this dismal image of a post-apocalyptic future where corporate pukes use AI to avoid having to deal with composers and musicians. Will some labels market themselves as using only "real" musicians and composers? Will their extra costs make them uncompetitive as compared to a company that uses some super computer running 24/7?
Yes, folks can use these tools to create backing tracks. We are driven to do this because it is so freaking difficult to make a living as a musician and it's just cheaper to use these automatons. What have we lost by not working with real musicians?
Done with rant.
Thanks so much, but I don‘t think I will use these tools in my compositions except the drummer who/which I always used so far in my music. The composition must always come from me, not from AI or KI (as called in Austria).
I feel I still spend a lot of time experimenting with Logic. I feel it’s really the only way to learn, in the end.
There was a moment setting out with AI SI I felt it was pretty much the same as any facet of Logic; listening and twiddling knobs until I understood and found things I liked.
But there’s also a point after that where I start feeling annoyed at the limitations, start a new instrument, and do it myself. Honestly, I am glad I do. Because I do agree with JoBu’s sentiment that there is joy in the exploration and discovery.
Maybe it was a jumping off point. I wish it wasn’t.
I think there’s something insidious about it. It appeals to my laziness. Which honestly isn’t new with LPX11, because composing drum is a bit of a weak spot for me and the AI drummer has been there for a bit already.
Also also, I generally try not to listen to music when I am in the creation mode, and working with the AI SI feels more like listening and judging rather than making.
Also^3, I enjoy the philosophical vibe of this video, but I also miss the creative input. Have spent some time messing with the AI SI, trying to mess it up with various trimming and plugins and what have you…
This wore on a bit. I yield my time😛
This AI stuff is scary yet amazing at the same time. I’ve seen it go from a bunch of hardware strung up with cables to a laptop.. what’s it going to mean to session musicians?
I think I basically agree with this. Though I feel a bit hypocritical for basically having not at all cared about the drummer, to then being quite put out by the keyboard and bass players... Maybe it comes back to jono's point around composition - I use the drummer to make beats for songs that I've already "written" from a melodic point of view.
There's a limitation to everything, The session player is for people who don't know music theory or the details but want something to assist or jump start. They are many tools out there that act like A.I and also assist people with their creativity before the session player came along like Splice and Scaler, all are tools to make creating music quicker (maybe not the best quality) and easier for more people
It’s definitely also for people who **DO** know music theory but never bothered to learn the bass, drums, or keyboard.
Oooh, I think this video will get lots of comments. Don’t mention the war 😂
My own take, I play guitar , bass and keys (badly) and wouldn’t dream of using the session keyboard or bass players when I have the ability to play myself.
When it comes to session drummer my opinions differ, I typically synch the drummer to my bass, tweak the sliders till I like what I’m hearing, then convert to midi and tweak, particularly finessing fills. I’d then process the bejaysus out of them (parallel comp/ verb, eq, comp) to make them sound authentic. I think this application is ok given I don’t have a kit at home. But each to their own I suppose. I hope people have the intelligence to not just use stock presets, even the 3 tracks you demo’s just sounded off, I can’t put my finger on it.
As a beginner producer and a big fan of yours, AI is definitely scary in ways that aid companies to make more money. I was checking out an original techno adjacent Spotify playlist a couple days ago and weirdly enough all the songs sounded the exact same, so I investigated and my suspicion was right on. They were pretty much all AI-made. Which got me wondering why Spotify would allow something like this on their platform but then it hit me lol. I guess the only positive side of this is that they weren’t particularly good and sounded like one big 30-40 minute song, but unfortunately it will get better with time. I can see how this can spill into the music making process itself and I urge people to use their creative minds a bit more but I’m way more concerned with people just bypassing this process altogether.
Ok Jono, you asked what I think! and presumably that includes what I don’t think …
The Emperors New Clothes!
1) I don’t think this is AI at all, how it got that title bemuses me and yet almost everyone seems to be calling it AI. I can only think it is a ploy by Apple to do what they enjoy doing most i.e. making more and more profit.
2) Surely AI would be telling your computer what you want to hear as a composition and then executing that with a simple command. Sort of akin to the art / visual AI apps. So I think this addition to Logic Pro is just another step in automated rhythm and harmony creation, albeit slightly more versatile and sophisticated than previous incarnations. It should definitely not be cited as AI.
3) I have started using this new feature, not as a composition tool but as an additional ideas pool to potentially add to my compositions. I find it fascinating as such, to quickly throw musical ideas into my work which are completely outside/beyond my musical instrument abilities. Some I use, by twisting editing and shaping them to suit or throw away as not irrelevant. Either way, this method is proving expedient.
4) I think, in the not too distant future, we will be hearing compositions that we don’t know were created with these sort of tools or not and especially more so when AI is properly implemented. Even these tools now open up a huge potential for experimentation and if combined with personalisation will potentially render impressive results.
I like your videos and presentation style and was pleased to see you ventured into this topic but surely it must be time to admit this is not really AI at all! 😮
I’m not convinced that ‘artificial intelligence’ isn’t a fitting descriptor, even if there’s an established technical definition of AI that this doesn’t fit. What I’m suggesting is that the correct technical definition is a side issue; it’s just semantics. The decisions that Logic is making are drawn from collated libraries of stylistic traits drawn from various musical styles. Logic may not be accessing and formulating solutions in precisely the same way that ChatGTP or other AI apps do but the relationship between it and human creativity are the same. Whether we call it AI or something else, we surrender our thought and invention to it. Declassifying it to call it non-AI doesn’t alter that exchange or lessen any discomfort we might feel about that surrender.
@@garygimmestad4272 Thanks for your response Gary. Because I sometimes make statements that go against the grain I usually get negative and even have received angry remarks. Yours though is measured and considerate and you conveyed your reasoning very well … It feels like we have a situation where we can happily agree to disagree over this. Even though I still advocate it ain’t AI and people are simply jumping on a bandwagon stating it is. Even the Emperor was fooled 🙃
I do see and understand the points you raise and mostly agree. I suppose I am looking a bit ahead to a time where musical composition AI (in the sense it is supposed to be meant) will only require a few prompts, and violá, a completed AI composition! That wouldn’t be befitting for an app like Logic though because it is basically a user interface DAW.
I do like and enjoy experimenting with these automated features in 11. I am starting to discover the possibilities of their function. They will definitely play a role in my music and hopefully the listener will never know😎
Regards.
Ray.
The real question, is WHY are you creating music in the first place? Is it for the human experience of it? Connecting to that inner voice that stirs an emotional response when you hear ratios of frequencies that please you? If that’s the case, then whatever feels good to you, you should do. It’s more unique and rewarding and original if you figure it out yourself. That said, since the mind works quicker than the fingers do, why not use it away well?
Or is the goal a hit record? If it is, then the End justifies the means. I’ve sat in the studio where the producer did nothing other than sit on the couch and tell everyone else what to play. Isn’t that essentially the same thing as having an AI session player do the bass part? So in conclusion, I see nothing wrong with it, and I just see it as another tool. But for me, 97% of the time, I end up playing something better and more appropriate than what’s generated. But I contradict myself as well, because I’ve been using Superior drummer grooves for years! Anyway, great info, thanks. And great discussion 🙌
We were using similar tech in the nineties with a Roland PMA 5. No one went crazy about folk using that, so what’s the difference ? Is it just because we now call it AI?
Weird. Anything it gets folk creating songs what does it matter? The next thing you know they’ll be making guitars electric 😳😂
Great video and I agree with your points. I feel that, unfortunately, these tools will be used in place of the creative process, they'll be used, knowingly or not, to forward the process of what I feel is the "safe" approach within the music industry right now. In my opinion, a lot of what is released in the pop/music world is disposable, repetitive and mediocre and I don't see any indications that this approach might be disrupted, these tools propagate this safe approach to mediocrity. That doesn't mean I think everything is futile, the creative process can take many shapes and forms and the feeling of discovery is amazing and as artists we won't allow that to be lost or. These are tools that can be useful, but in the grand scheme of things they should be kept "smallen"! Thanks Jono.
For all my homies cowering in the corner when they hear “ai” in Logic Pro: The session players don’t feel like “ai” to me at all. Mostly algorithmic changes based on where you place a slider. The follow rhythm of other ideas is cool, but honestly, the session players are extremely limited in terms of what I would WANT to be able to achieve with them. I’ve managed to make some solid basslines with LOTS of changes and work/deliberation with the session bass player for an atmospheric jungle song. I feel like almost everything these session tools were originally designed to make is basically Nickleback Cookie-cutter music. It’s very difficult to slap it on a song and make it induce “rave” vibes, right away. They’re great tools, but they’re tools. I’ve been playing a lot of Elden ring lately, so I’m constantly surrounded by Ai enemies right now 😂 I gotta tell ya, I sense 0 intelligence, artificial or not, going on behind the decision making of how the session players are programmed to work
I'll put my hand up and say I use the session keyboard player. Why...because it can "play" a part way better than I can. BUT...I want to be the one to work out the bones of the part. I use Session Player in exactly the way one would use a human session player: "play this chord progression, but play it better than I can."
You are entitled to your point of view, but I think these AI composition tools are fantastic and have unleashed my compositional creativity. I also use AI in software coding and research on topics I'm interested in. Humanity's tools and creativity are exploding and I find it almost offensive to be told I shouldn't be using these tools. Popular music has been garbage/dead for twenty years or more anyway, without these AI tools - maybe this is a doorway into a rejuvenated music scene.
These are not strictly artificial intelligence. They don't create. They are just a very sophisticated way of interacting with pre existing loops through a large set of input parameters. Really no different to what already existed in Drummer. More sophisticated perhaps, but not a paradigm shift. AI is merely a sales pitch here, which perhaps puts off as many people as it turns on. In the end they are just another instrument, another creative tool that you need to learn to play just as much as the mandolin you just got for twenty quid down the second hand shop. The human still creates here. Without your touch the session players are inert and silent as the grave.
Smallen is the opposite of embiggen
Someone with absolutely no musical knowledge, experience or understanding could quite easily make a top 40 hit!
Huh?
AI may be much, but it’s not creative. I’m a guitarist nowadays. Before that I was a drummer, before that I played the Euphonium, before that I played the cornet. Before that, in the very beginning, I watched my dad literally write music on a piece of paper. The few times I’ve looked into these session features in Logic, I’ve ended up making the entire tracks from scratch, because I want something they can’t and/or won’t give. Wether it’s a rythm pattern, arpeggio, or chords, this technology is failing big time on me.
I’m not a virtuoso in any shape or form, but I understand music more than enough to know that AI will never be capable of replacing the good old fashion real life musician in flest and blood. Because ut’s an art form that requires a free mind in order to be shaped. Without a free mind sitting at the helm with both hands placed steady on the wheel, music will sieze to excist.
Also the fourth, I do enjoy telling the stupid AI to get out of the way because I know what I want and how to do it, after fiddling with its knobs for a bit🥴🤷
A lot of music does sound the same, even when played by humans, I won't mention any genres.
First! (Sorry)
Ai should be used with a wize way Human have always make music with passion Ai cant copy passion never. so i stick to the old way to make music my own imagination, but for those who see potensial in Ai and use it in a clever way is ok, i stick to make my own music without use of Ai. .
One more step towards dumbing down Logic. Thanks Apple, but no thanks.
How is the innovative use of AI beyond its peers “dumbing down” the software? I’m just happy the had a meaningful update for the first time in a decade
Smallen is the opposite of embiggen