They requested that we didn't say it in video but instead inquire directly. There are special promos going on right now for a limited time. Trust me.... we always ask PRICE. We don't however, always get permission to share.
@experimentalaircraft I understand I just thought it was amusing that the price was never mentioned. I also think most westerners are not in favor of a copy but how many companies make cub clones? How is that ok but for some reason making a copy of an engine that’s been on the market for over 30 years is considered bad form?
That's not how that works, at all. This is an "affordable" 100 hp engine, not a 350 hp turbocharged FADEC engine going into a million dollar airplane. If a company wants me to "call for price", I'm definitely not doing that. I value transparency, not cheap sales tactics.
I’ve worked at an FBO and built a half dozen or so engines, mostly IO-470 & 520s. Silicone (RTV) is a big no-no. It softens in hot oil and the goobers can end up in the oil passages. That is a non starter for me.
@@neonone9164 I really feel like this company, and the Chinese government supporting it, are building this engine for the military UAV application. China has no domestic demand for civilian light / ultralight aircraft. The international market is not big enough to interest a Chinese company typically. Military UAVs are the only reason to justify such an investment by China. Right now, as I type this, Iran just launched 100s of UAVs on Israel. Who knows how many more waves are coming in the next few days. As such, anything you can do to produce an engine in volume for an application where no durability is needed, you are going to to do it. Using RTV instead of a comparatively expensive and labor intensive gasket / o ring makes sense.
I believe subaru did this with their boxer engines.. removed the gasket and used rtv to save money... now boxer engines commonly develop leaks. So I bought a Toyota lol.
If its easy to access gaskets on the exterior it might still be cheaper to buy this and just replace the gaskets and clean off the RTV before mounting. Particularly for a home built airplane a little sweat equity is often welcomed.
Parts availability in GA right now is killing it, not to mention quality. We dropped a well known after market IO-360 the school's 172 by 470 hours it was burning 1 quart an hour and had 10 to 40 psi on 3 cylinders, cracked figure 8 shaped exhaust guides & rocker faces that looked like the surface of the moon in addition to being crooked. Genuine Lycoming cylinders is almost a 1 year wait
But corporate profits are up so it's all good in Wall St world. Nothing to warry about. Prices will go up regardless of quality or outcome of product. There's zero reason for one year wait time for parts.
Same in Australia, the road going for experimental is out of hours on condition Rotax 912 for owner built owner maintained , the clone Rotax is around 2/3 the cost at best so price is not that great
@@phoneticau 2/3 the cost isn't that big a deal when buying groceries. When we're talking about a $15-$20 engine taking off 1/3 the price is a good chunk of money. I'd weigh this against people thinking of automotive conversions and such. Maybe you don't think its as good as a Rotax, but would you prefer this or a conversion engine?
I was originally very sceptical of this engine. We have a Rotax engine shop and when I bought the first Zonsen engine I had it stripped down to the crank and check the quality and tolerances as far as possible. With the engine stripped, you cannot see any difference between this engine and a Rotax engine. The parts were to the decimal the same size and extremely high quality. I reassembled the engine, slap a KFA turbo on it and am now happily flying behind a 135hp KFA version in my KFA Explorer. The engine is extremely smooth and performs flawless. From a mechanical perspective there is no reason for me to doubt that this one will be just as good and maybe even better than Rotax. When I sell a standard Zonsen engine it comes with a 300hr or 24 month warrantee, which is better than Rotax. This company is massive and they manufacture engines for very well known car brands (high end German and some US cars) generators, motor cycles and much more, so you can criticise all you like but chances are that you are driving or have driven behind some of their engine in well known cars, bikes, lawnmowers etc etc. Some competition in the market can only be good for the consumer.
@@darrend5741 We did some testing, hardness and some materials but I obviously did not want to break a brand new engine. Rest assured, there are no quality issues which we could pick up. Anyways, I am pushing the engine hard at 135hp and as I said, so far no issues. I am putting my stamp of approval on it without hesitation.
@@kfaaircraftandadventures I hope everything works out great for you. Please keep the community informed of all developments, good, bad, or ugly. God bless
a friend of mine had a Hirth F30 blow a crank on climb out. He was killed on impact. The investigation gave me a huge appreciation for metalurgy 101. Cheaper motors are just that. Use accordingly.
That sounds horrible. Sorry for your loss. Hirth would be a great subject for one of these videos. They have sold so many engines and there is so little discussion about them. In fact 2 strokes in general. It would be cool to see a real mechanic tear some down and describe them on their technical merit....and others to describe their use in the real world.
I watched your video with Matt. He paid $8k for his a year ago. Now they are up to almost $16k. Were they $10k or less I'd understand buying one. At 2/3 the cost of the real deal I'd pass. The line I found the most comical was that Rotax had no competition so now they are going to have to compete with their own design. Glad you are informing the public but I'll be watching on the sidelines for now.
Had a friend brag how much more his house is worth. I explained it is not his house but his dollar is worth a lot less. Maybe someday the average Joe will wake up to the game. You will eat ze bugs and be happy.
@@tylerdurden2644 An average home in Sydney Australia in 2007 costed 400 ounces of gold; now it still costs 400 ounces of gold. However, in Austrailian dollars you then paid AUD$ 500.000 and now AUD$ 1.400.000 The result of printing money.....
I sealed the carb bowl on my motorbike once with RTV and it actually kinda worked for stopping leaks. But I'd never use it near fuel again. It swells up on the inside a lot and can interfere with the function of the floats. Plus the fuel breaks it down so who knows how long till a jet blocks.
I really feel like this company, and the Chinese government supporting it, are building this engine for the military UAV application. China has no domestic demand for civilian light / ultralight aircraft. The international market is not big enough to interest a Chinese company typically. Military UAVs are the only reason to justify such an investment by China. Right now, as I type this, Iran just launched 100s of UAVs on Israel. Who knows how many more waves are coming in the next few days. As such, anything you can do to produce an engine in volume for an application where no durability is needed, you are going to to do it. Using RTV instead of a comparatively expensive and labor intensive gasket / o ring makes sense.
22:11 Compared to EPDM rubber, silicone has around 15 times the permeability to water vapor, so you'd have check coolant levels and top off with water more often.
Zongshen is in fact a motorcycle manufactures, I send some times at the factory asked if I would be interested to develop the 4 cylinder engine, was taken to the “secret” rooms and what is saw was a Rotax .. not interested in to copies , but was well treaded and given some nice gifts. The company owner is a super-rich guy and part of the government …
The Rotax 912 was introduced in 1989. That's 35 years ago. Patents vary by country but its 18 years here in the US. After that its perfectly legal (and not even considered shady) to build "copies" of something. You can't call it a "Rotax", but you can make it identical down to taking the same replacement parts and that's fine.
Good reporting! The cost of parts is what really is the downside of Rotax. Rotax cylinders, rings, pistons cost the same as certified Lycoming/Continental. That is why Rotax engines are never overhauled because the parts cost and the labor cost from Lockwood exceeds the cost of a new engine. Rebuilding.the gearbox (childs play for even an average experienced mechanic) costs $2,800 from Lockwood. Absolutely ridiculous for what amounts to be a simple non EPA compliant motorcycle engine. I hope Zongsen puts a serious dent in the Rotax customer base. I for sure will be buying their replacement parts.
If you want to know about the engine jump to 15 minutes and you will get little. The rest is all "We had a question online that I thought we would ask and now is good time to do that ......." and general word salads. It is a 100% Rotax 912 clone. That is about all. 500 hour warrantee.
Looking at current prices the delta isn't as much as I expected. I've used their ATV clones and they haven't ever given me an issue, the carbs have they always gum up faster, I'm not sure if its a material thing or what... the good news on the Gy6/atv is you just put your hand over the intake and crank it and it will usually open up the jets and run. Would be curious to see if their carbs used here have similar issues. 115hp is 10k cheaper and the 100 is 7k cheaper, nothing to sneeze at but... now if they can find other uses (those little cars or something) to increase volume of these types of engines it might pull the cost down for both rotax and zd. The market needs affordable engines so hopefully these have a impact. The 912/914 market is large (in aviation terms), and the IO540 is probably the next popular... that is an area that needs a good slot in replacement as most of the 4 place experimental use it and the price has become preventative for many.
-It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood.
I see details like 17:46 lumpy sealant oozing out of a valve cover & the fuel pump & 20:28 bad welds on the exhaust showing the usual Chinese quality I've come to expect. My opinion on the painted castings is it will retain heat & is likely a sealant for casting flaws. I'm ok-ish with Chinese junk powering my lawn mower or weed eater but I'm standing on the ground when they take a dump! We don't make much here anymore because businesses push "Fine China" products on us for higher profits while China's society promotes cutting corners on quality for profit.
nailed it, with chinas deep seated cultural / societal absolute for profit over anything and everything else, if i was trusting my health and safety to an ultralight aircraft engine, i'd save the extra and go rotax.
Good to see Zongshen make a small aircraft engine. I have owned a Zongshen motorcycle that was good and reliable. I also have a Rotax 582 on my ultralight that was way too expensive for what it is.
@@devonlove9095 interesting that you know what my plans are. I think it's great to have a lower cost option so I'm rooting for this new engine but I won't risk myself or my family before it's been well vetted.
Hi Brian, as an alternative to the Rotax, could you please do a review of the Aeromomentum aircraft engine. don’t hear much about them. It would be interesting to hear what they like.
TBO for these engines? Aren’t the Rotax engines basically computer controlled? My 912 does all the thinking as far as carb heat, richness at all levels and mixture, warm up, all temps, etc, etc … very, very stable, dependable… (he mentioned the UL Power engines)…. Is China involved with this in any way?
UL Power... no idea which components or maybe internals are sourced from. UL is from Belgium. The more "basic" Rotax is pressure sensing carbs with electronic ignition. Fuel injection (computer controlled) are available on other models of Rotax (912is for example)
Agreed, the costs & barriers to entry & sustainment need to come down, but cheap Chinese knockoffs of highly questionable quality like this are absolutely not the answer.
@@johnrisher3007 I'm only an aircraft powertrain design engineer, rated commercial pilot & mechanic and an appointed DER who has been in the industry for 25 years. So yes, it might not amount to much...but it's enough to judge this cheap Chinese knockoff for the piece of junk it very well is. Just sayin'.
As someone who owns a plane and has had Chinese motorcycles with Zongshen engines let me be the first to say, I will never put that CCP made crap in my plane. Shitty welds, horrible QC, horrible customer service, reduced power, lower material quality, and lack of transparency. These are things that Zongshen and its sister companies are repeatedly guilty of. It doesn't really matter if you have a Zong motor in a dirt bike because that's only $1500 for the whole bike but when you're flying over mountains and your engine starts saying "Ching gong pow", your name will quickly become Ho Li Fuk as your pronouns are then changed to "here" and "there."
I have an update. CKD aero is owned by a Canadian packaging company. CKD has never been aviation before and is struggling to make an aviation busines viable primarily because of a lack of knowledge and experience. Zongsen is a very viable Chinese manufacturer of small engines. The problem is that the US has a 25% customs duty on Chinese products. Canada does not have this duty. CKD has yet to sell this engine into America. There currently is no service or support for this engine in the US. CKD no longer has a relationship with the man in this interview. He now works for Gulfstream in Savannah. Zongsen is making no effort to market this engine in the US. So at the moment (Nov 2024) there is no way to get this engine in the USA other than ordering it from a Canadian dealer in Sherbrooke but you will be paying a 25% custom duty once it crosses the border. My friend tried to buy this engine from CKD and the transaction failed completely for the reasons stated.
I am no chinese fanboy - but....I do have a Zongshen engine in a very quiet inverter generator. It has several hundred hours on it without issue. Doing maintenance on the generator, I cant help but notice how nice the engine castings are and also internal parts (checked the valve clearance at 300h). I also just realized my little 110 pitbike's engine is a Zongshen and is also well built and seems to be of high quality. I swapped a hotter camshaft into this one and the internal components look as quality as the many many Japanese motorcycle engines I have worked on and rebuilt.
They make a lot of stuff thats often branded something else. Ryuoka or whatever. How much the companies such as ssr motorsports or gp-x pretend its in their own factory or not varies. A very large manufacturer anyways
Between me and y'all... I appreciate the video, and it is good information, however, for the value, being able to use car gas, pricepoint, and power to weight ratios... my money is on aeromomentum. No, I am not affiliated with them in any shape/form/fashion. Thanks for the video.. cant wait to see more on the sonex and vans high wings.
RTV? If they're trying to save time not pinching the O ring by adding adhesive, what else are they cutting corners on? Also, that fuel pump looks like the obsolete style Rotax moved away from. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Mr. Kacsmarek has a tough job ahead of him. He is very careful about using the word “Asia” instead of the word “China” and if you are not proud of where your product is manufactured that’s not a good start. He answers questions about quality and warranty by explaining what those standards and certifications mean but never clearly states the engine meets them. He points out the excellent warranty but never provided an example of how the process would actually play out for a customer. He never said if parts were readily available or in stock but in the event of a major failure, ZS “wants the entire engine back”. What does that mean for the owner? That’s no different than how Rotax does it. To me, this implies he doesn’t want to explain the details because it’s not going to brief well to potential customers. He did admit there are no service centers in the US for this engine yet but he’s working with a guy in a hangar in Florida. He missed the opportunity to explain how ZS will keep their customers informed of component defects, recalls, service or safety bulletins, etc. No mention of the technical data owners or mechanics need to service and repair the engine and where to go to keep it updated. Bolting an engine to an aircraft is about much more than the upfront price and Richard missed an opportunity to convince us the ZS is a good alternative to the Rotax product.
15:40 did I get that correctly? "Helping out Rotax owners" with non-OEM parts from a different manufacturer?😅 26:35 in real engineering, we either use RTV _or_ an O-ring or a gasket or a lip seal. These are all different design elements with a myriad of variations, so I am always eager to learn. But I just don't get why one should be happy with a manufacturer that uses RTV to "quicken" the production process to mount something that is design-wise sealed with an O-ring. This will cause headaches down the road.
I don't want to buy a thing that is a "cheap copy" from a country that is hostile towards mine. So....not an option despite the savings in price. 😢 Will these sentiments be a barrier for sales? i suspect so! No offence to Richard. Im sure he works hard.
I don't think there is anything standing in the way of copying now. All patents/patents pending are well expired by now (from my understanding). Hey... at least they pained it an different color! :-)
@@hangarrat101 very different. Lycoming owned titan and then sold it to Continental which now builds the titan and owns the rights. This seems like a copy that likely is legal since the patent has expired.
@@hangarrat101 Patents (when issued) are only valid for 20 years from FILING date. Rotax introduced the base model around 1984. Any patents with that original motor expired over 20 years ago.
When a market has competition, the consumer always wins! Thanks for sharing Brian! [Edit] If they bring a 916 clone, I'll start paying more close attention. 🤔 [Edit #2] Until I can afford to do anything, I'm just the 🥜 gallery! 😄
I did the certification for the Chinese Sunward Aurora LSA in 2019 that used the Rotax. Back then the engineers mentioned this engine, interesting to finally see it.
It is...that could be a wake-up call for the monopoly we have today. I hope it will shake things up a little, I want puke when I check engine prices it is disgusting
You are aware the "best- Rotax" has a disclaimer on their non-cert engines saying engine could seize or blow at any moment and kill you? That's how much Rotax cares about you.
Never would have touched a chinese engine before, until I bought a chinese dirt bike. I think it may even be a ZD Zongshen. Starts right up and runs like a top. I would seriously consider a chinese Rotax knockoff if the price was right, and parts were easily obtainable. Bonus points if parts were interchangeable with Rotax.
For the people saying they wouldnt trust a new new engine from china (some having geopolitical tension with them) remember that uou dknt start with a name Lycoming, Continental and Rotax all started where Zhonshen is now. If anything, Zhongshen is starting from a better place because they're starting from a place of advanced knowledge. Rotax had to prove themselves and now theyre revered, give these guys the same chance.
@@jmwintenn Reputation for what? Bringing a vast amount of products to market that average Joe can afford not just RichRectumHole's? For enormously increasing the standard of living of probably everyone you know and associate with? Do you believe all the hobbyist wood workers, metal workers, electronics hobbyists would have access to machine tools, hand tools, parts, instruments etc that is in all the shops, garages, etc of EVRYONE YOU KNOW without Chinese industry supplying it? You don't have to answer, everyone on this forum knows you don't believe that. If you believe they shouldn't have such things unless it comes from brands personally endorsed by you and at a price point approved by you because, well, they're "unworthy"; well I guess that says mountains about you doesn't it?
Serious question... what happens to the end users of these engines, when China attacks Taiwan, like they promise to do? The USA will have to stop most trade with the chinese, and the end users will have an obsolete engine, no?
@@rolnthunder6737 JHC on a stick! If the US becomes embroiled in a war in Asia against China, you are gonna have way more pressing concerns than where to get parts for your toy airplane. You think people in Ukraine (other than Zelenski) are fretting about the lack of Ferrari's and high end lipstick? In a global conflagration Real shI^ gonna get REAL, REAL fast.
Why are there so few makers of aviation motors? I'm not a pilot nor a mechanic but as I've looked around at learning to fly I've kinda thought there wasn't much of a choice? Since there isn't much competition, is that how prices are so high? I don't know but they seem high priced to the point that even pt 103 planes are hard to get going? I'm only asking - only way to learn and I am glad to hear this interview. I like replacement of motors & strict standards on nuts/bolts & parts. peace
Several factors. One - there just aren't nearly as many planes built as most other stuff. If you'll look at the total number of any specific model built its probably less than the number of Corollas Toyota sells every 2 weeks. A more niche product will always cost more. If more people were flying and we were building more aircraft (and aircraft engines) the price would be lower, but currently aviation is extremely expensive so not as many people can afford it. Chicken and egg problem. 50-60 years ago they seemed to be building more planes and they were less expensive adjusted for inflation (often 1/2 to even 1/3 the cost of a new plane today when adjusted for inflation). Secondly, many/most countries place some serious regulations around anything that goes into an aircraft. Even outside of engines and just on avionics/electronics if you look at the stuff for certified aircraft versus what can be used in an experimental, its about double the cost for certified. That has also lead to the increases mentioned in point #1. And then there is just the realistic bit that most transportation engines like car engines have short bursts of higher RPM while accelerating and then downshift and can keep the car moving at a given speed at a much lower RPM, working the engine less hard. Airplane engines tend to be running high RPM constantly during flight. That just is tougher on an engine and requires higher quality construction and engineering to make it reliable.
I realize how dumb a question I asked & of course I realize not many planes are built but what I was thinking as I said this is that it seemed to me the big Japanese motorcycle/outboard & car giants are barely doing any & again it's all about so few being sold but I'm surprised they've not tried. I think I saw some Yamaha Air Craft motors, I think? I'm watching lots of boating/motorcycle building videos so as I jumped over to planes I'm behind the ball trying to pick up a lot real fast. I do appreciate your teaching me here, it is why I ask & prices are what keep me from trying to get into it. Probably smart for me to stay on the ground but I enjoy watching these guys/gals chasing the dream & money is part of it all, just more of it. And after what you've shared, that must explain all the older planes in operation? New is super high priced & used at least is built, redo things as needed & you can fly. Yeah, I'm only now realizing why there are so many pre-2000 built planes. I wasn't too sure but I see it now. Thanks
When it comes to real estate there's three things to rember 1 Location 2 Location 3 Location When it comes to manufacturing ANEYTHING that is used on an aircraft there are three things to rember 1 Liability 2 Liability 3 Liability
I suppose that makes plenty of sense but I know of several great engine manufacturer's in Japan alone but I guess the money made on these motors wouldn't be worth the liability? I won't be a pilot but the subject is interesting. thanks
I love all of the comments about chinese garbage, sure with some things but China also has manufacturing capabilty and quality that rivals North American. It all depends if you want the 50.cent Chinese product or the $2 chinese product. Isn't Continental Chinese? How many other aircraft companies are now Chinese owned? How many parts do you think are sent over from China like he said but built in America? Tons. Make a judgment on the product and not your complete speculation! Aircraft engines have increased 100% over the last 6 years, I can tell you the metal components haven't increased to enough to justify that increase. They are gouging consumers because they can, making record profits. 60k for some of these engines now with 75 year old technology. I hope more competition comes into the market. The engines are made for a fraction of what they are sold for and the current environment has stifled technological advancements. Maybe if they start losing some business it will force these manufacturers to stop raising prices and start developing some newer technology.
Yes, it will be cheap until they put the competition out of business and then they’ll start charging more for something that is worse. This is the Chinese way wake up the Chinese are not your friends.
Who are your friends? Rotax? Big tip here, NO company is your friend, Corporate customer abuse, malfeasance, operating in not good faith etc is basic corporate policy. You mean nothing to them, if you croak so be it, just make sure you sent the final payment first thanks. In that sense the Chinese corps are no different than any other.
I worked for a company that had its products copied (500k to 5million each). They copied our products and sold the cheap copy to our existing customers. Put the company under and we all lost our jobs....not friends. They have a motto that says if you can cheat and lie to win ....win. no honour/respect or responsibility. No private industry....think about it.
I'm wondering whether Richard pronounces Zongshen more like "Zonsen" on purpose. It sounds closer to a name like "Johnson" this way and doesn't make it so obvious, that it's a Chinese product. At the Aero exhibition their booth was even branded as Zonsen Aero Engines (not Zongshen).
The Companys name is Zonsen Aero Engines. I visited their factory in China a few weeks ago. It was immaculately clean, well organised and automated. The team there were very friendly and professional.
Not every engine failure leads to a crash. There's plenty of issues that can be just a "take note of that and fix later" type of thing - even noticed on the annual inspection. All a warranty is is a matter of the maker's confidence in the engine. A long warranty puts them on the financial hook for repairs so if they don't think it'll make it that long they won't warrant it for that long.
Most every backyard mechanic and upward knows that RTV silicone swells when exposed to gasoline. Geez, I don't mind competition but a flat out CLONE is disgusting! If they are such great engine builders, then why a verbatim clone? Only problem is it's not built Verbatim, copies never are. You are not going to get the exact same metallurgy and heat treating as the original. This is the same sort of crap going on in the small gas engine world where all the small USA and Japanese engine companies are competing against their own designs being built far cheaper in Asia. Our American and European companies get destroyed over environmental regulations which the Asian companies are not subject too so this is part of why this junk is cheaper. I think some of the welding visible in the video looks like crap too. They probably paint the main castings so they can butter up the rough spots with BONDO and cover it up. This guy only buys genuine GM parts for his GM but thinks it's OK to put Chinese clone parts on a genuine Rotax. You just devalued your channel by showcasing this garbage. This is gross, I'm out of here............................................................................
All these water-cooled, alternator and battery dependent engines would work great in snowmobiles, ATVs, or PWCs, but I really do like air-cooling, carburetors, and magnetos in airplanes. No worries about coolant leaks in flight and it keeps running normally with total electrical failure. If these things are the future of aviation, I'm done flying. Electronics might be durable, but I've seen a lot more alternator failures than magneto failures in my 42 years in aviation, and when the battery gets weak, electronic ignition or FADEC just stops working. Backup batteries don't make me feel any better about it. One more thing to add weight and require maintenance, which means one more thing to get neglected. Aviation R&D is going in the wrong directions.
It's a shame. Anybody else in the free world trying to openly copy a concurrent product would be sued and convicted. But it's China... Even if it could be interresting to have cheaper alternatives to the 912, it's not acceptable. If I had to change my 912, it would surely not be for this product. They'll even probably copy the documentation, so that they don't even need to try to write one down.
They were at Aero 2024. Their website says that have a 145HP turbocharged engine. We don't need 912 engines, we need turbos. Nobody wants 912 when 916 is just better. Their 145 engines seem to be carburettor which is no good, tell them we need injection. We need an engine as good as the 916 at 1/10 the cost.
We need competition in the market place against Rotax who just keep increasing their prices, in the same breath any competition needs to be at leat half the price of the Rotax equivalent because if it isn’t, people will just go for the established item.
The inevitable quality issue was addressed in the clip, time will tell I suppose. EDIT: Feels like a bit of an advertisement, but a rep talking about a product, thats gonna happen.
"I think the Zongshen is a very good item, A : Complex, compact, high performance engine due to regulated maintenance standards is always a plus for prolonged engine efficiency and function. I support Zongshen(ZD-CkD Aero.)👍
So basically $15k for a carburated with mags Subaru 4-cylinder. Here's a dumb question: And I'm not an A&P mechanic, if it's an experimental aircraft why not swap automotive engines. Sorting out water cooling and the motor mount structure, which has to play nice balance and harmonics, is too big of a problem?
The Chinese government allows espionage to take technology from countries around the world. They also do not in enforce worldwide patent laws. So it’s typical for clothing and manufacturing items to have exact clones or knock offs made in China. Often on the same factory floor. Chinese companies will then sell those products to third world (sometime the US) countries for a fraction of the retail price, the US and Europe would pay for the original item.
Why can't China be more like the USA, they don't invade or commit genocide to force their ways on people or take oil or initiate mutiny. I think you should look in your own country first.
Interesting engine but where can I find data on engine exhaust emissions? Example at X RPM, fuel consumption = X, Exhaust emissions in ppm for CO CO2 NOx unburned fuel... Please thank.
I have purchased products that came out of China , as they are becoming more available in the current market place here in N.America and probably throughout other places on our planet... Several of their products seemed to have initial Q.C. and questionable materials issues, when they first became available... Now, the Chinese products have become quite reliable and definitely show impressive quality with attention to detail... This engine is one of those.... BTW, the Chinese Products are not the first ones to clone designs that were developed in oyher countries... There are numerous sucessful countries who cloned products that came from other parts of the World 🌎🌍... I'm wondering what the specific materials are that are used to produce these engines : What alloy type was used for the high- stress castings (like the center cases, psru cases, heads, cylinder jugs, Pistons, etc.) ? Were these parts checked for cracks, inclusions, air pockets, etc, ? What type of metal was used for the high-stress steel components (like crankshafts, camshafts, connecting rods, valves and valvetrane component's, piston rings, connecting rod bolts, center case and jug studs, etc.) Are the 2-piece con-rods the fractured type or the machined parting - surface type? What is the primary triggering device for both of the ignition systems? Points & electronic ? Maybe a medium voltage 'Scintilla' 'shower of sparks' type with points? Do the ignition drives have inpulse couplings ? Are the Ignition leads the standard shielded type? I'm a BIG fan of carburetors... Those look like clones of the CV Bings... I especially liked the anti-ice intake collars that looked like they transferred the heat from hot oil to keep the Air horn impact air porting, venturi slides & throttle place free of ice... What are the specs. of this machine? Can the parts supply chain travel from other places, besides China? I'm also wondering about the manuals... are they readily available for these engines and associated equipment like the props, ignition system, induction system, exhaust systems, engine oil cooler heat exchangers and thermostats, electrical power generation and cranking systems ?
When this happens... usually the people we are interviewing REQUEST that we don't put the price in the video. We ALWAYS ASK PRICE. Things change quickly in this economy and that of course affects price. Currently (as of TODAY) it is below $16k). If you reach out to them... they will of course explain pricing and special offers.
I would use two of them in a twin build. Some redundancy sort of thing. Singles is always scary for my imagination. In fact aircrafts, however small, need to have a minimum of two engines just in case...
Interesting how the gentleman says when he replaces parts on his GM vehicle he demands to have GM replacement parts not aftermarket part… the engine he is selling is all aftermarket… I would wait at least five years before I even consider one of these not to mention they are not that much cheaper they should lower the price until they build a reputation
@@jpdurr yes but a vw conversion isn’t a Rotax clone so I don’t see the connection. There are also a lot of corvairs flying and a lot of Hondas, Subaru and Chevy. There is a discussion about auto conversions that can go on, but at the moment we should focus on the Rotax clone. Is it as good as the original? Time will tell. Is it better than the original??? Is it better than an auto conversion?
@@grandenauto3214 my reply was on point to @Mike-01234 question about who or how many people would fly using a VW conversion for their power. I hope they provide some viable alternative and competition to Rotax. Rotax's prices are quite simply eyewatering. Just don't like that they are not offering FADEC as an option (yet). Also, the prices are about 30% more than I think they would warrant, especially being associated with China MFG. I do know that China can and does make quality products (iPhone.....) but in the realm of engines, they have not built a great reputation thus far.
@@grandenauto3214 That is exactly the connection. All these "not me never" types. Do they sing the same song about VW engines made in Mexico, 1960's air cooled Corvair cores, head gasket infamy Subaru conversions etc etc. If the answer is "NO" to anything but a genuine 0 timed Lycoming or new Rotax, why bother even being on this channel or watching this video? There are people who desperately want to believe that because they paid enough to make their eyes bleed to Rotax that they somehow got a Safe Product and Rotax Cares about them. They didn't and Rotax doesn't. Bass Pro Shop sells an ATV called Tracker. Read the customer comments about this vehicle, proudly made by Textron.
post covid china prices have skyrocketed, so yeah, no, this engine at 16k is worth 9k since its from china. The manufacturer isnt even doing the warranty work, its outsourced to someone else. They claim 2,000 hour tbo and offer 500 hour 3 year warranty lol. So they dont even think it will last 25% of the claimed tbo.
Whereas others in GA are living to a ripe old age and not crashing into mountains, the desert, and the ocean. Much like people in other high risk hobbies like motorcycle racing, skydiving, SCUBA etc. If you're risk averse then experimental kitplanes etc IS NOT FOR YOU. Go take up knitting while wearing a football helmet.
I find it amazing how many people know how to properly display the US flag. The Union is always to the viewers upper left. Your flag is displayed backwards.
I like the engine and the purpose behind it. Any time you can bring down the cost of owning a plane, you have my vote. I had ASTM certification for the job I had before I retired. BTW, I couldn't help noticing the Maule coffee mug. I fell in love with a Maule Rocket over 50 years ago. It was STOL before STOL became popular.
Maule MX7 was the very first Aircraft I ever flew in. I have a special place in my heart for the MAULE as well. Did a factory tour a few years ago: th-cam.com/video/KzJGoO1bW1s/w-d-xo.html
I've flown to China a bunch before I retired and I have bought my share of knock-off products. I wouldn't mount that engine in any airplane. Quality control for Chinese made products is horrible.
@@Bob-j5o3b Yes - 747-400, 757,767,737 727. I think they build a great product and some of the mistakes I'm seeing on the news tells me they have tried cutting costs to close to the bone. Everything that goes into their jets - airframe wise, should be brought back in house. That's where I would start.
Congratulations! You manage to produce an entire video about the new most affordable aircraft engine without actually mentioning the price!
They requested that we didn't say it in video but instead inquire directly. There are special promos going on right now for a limited time. Trust me.... we always ask PRICE. We don't however, always get permission to share.
You know " If you have to ask" ... You might not be able to afford it... Yet the future it might be a value or crap... Seems time and use will tell...
@experimentalaircraft I understand I just thought it was amusing that the price was never mentioned. I also think most westerners are not in favor of a copy but how many companies make cub clones? How is that ok but for some reason making a copy of an engine that’s been on the market for over 30 years is considered bad form?
That's not how that works, at all. This is an "affordable" 100 hp engine, not a 350 hp turbocharged FADEC engine going into a million dollar airplane. If a company wants me to "call for price", I'm definitely not doing that. I value transparency, not cheap sales tactics.
Sticker price can't be mentioned? We all know that is normally the highest price.
I’ve worked at an FBO and built a half dozen or so engines, mostly IO-470 & 520s. Silicone (RTV) is a big no-no. It softens in hot oil and the goobers can end up in the oil passages. That is a non starter for me.
I agree, and his explanation was pure BS, never had any issues with pinching o rings, only pinching a loaf.
@@neonone9164 I really feel like this company, and the Chinese government supporting it, are building this engine for the military UAV application. China has no domestic demand for civilian light / ultralight aircraft. The international market is not big enough to interest a Chinese company typically. Military UAVs are the only reason to justify such an investment by China. Right now, as I type this, Iran just launched 100s of UAVs on Israel. Who knows how many more waves are coming in the next few days. As such, anything you can do to produce an engine in volume for an application where no durability is needed, you are going to to do it. Using RTV instead of a comparatively expensive and labor intensive gasket / o ring makes sense.
Yep
I believe subaru did this with their boxer engines.. removed the gasket and used rtv to save money... now boxer engines commonly develop leaks. So I bought a Toyota lol.
If its easy to access gaskets on the exterior it might still be cheaper to buy this and just replace the gaskets and clean off the RTV before mounting. Particularly for a home built airplane a little sweat equity is often welcomed.
Parts availability in GA right now is killing it, not to mention quality. We dropped a well known after market IO-360 the school's 172 by 470 hours it was burning 1 quart an hour and had 10 to 40 psi on 3 cylinders, cracked figure 8 shaped exhaust guides & rocker faces that looked like the surface of the moon in addition to being crooked. Genuine Lycoming cylinders is almost a 1 year wait
But corporate profits are up so it's all good in Wall St world. Nothing to warry about. Prices will go up regardless of quality or outcome of product.
There's zero reason for one year wait time for parts.
Here in the UK, the saving vs the same Rotax is so small, it doesn’t make taking the risk worthwhile.
Last I checked there was no agent for them in the UK anymore either - had to get one from EU and pay transport and VAT
Same in Australia, the road going for experimental is out of hours on condition Rotax 912 for owner built owner maintained , the clone Rotax is around 2/3 the cost at best so price is not that great
@@phoneticau "...the road going for experimental is out of hours on condition Rotax 912 for owner built owner maintained" not sure what that means.
@@phoneticau 2/3 the cost isn't that big a deal when buying groceries. When we're talking about a $15-$20 engine taking off 1/3 the price is a good chunk of money.
I'd weigh this against people thinking of automotive conversions and such. Maybe you don't think its as good as a Rotax, but would you prefer this or a conversion engine?
I was originally very sceptical of this engine. We have a Rotax engine shop and when I bought the first Zonsen engine I had it stripped down to the crank and check the quality and tolerances as far as possible. With the engine stripped, you cannot see any difference between this engine and a Rotax engine. The parts were to the decimal the same size and extremely high quality. I reassembled the engine, slap a KFA turbo on it and am now happily flying behind a 135hp KFA version in my KFA Explorer. The engine is extremely smooth and performs flawless. From a mechanical perspective there is no reason for me to doubt that this one will be just as good and maybe even better than Rotax. When I sell a standard Zonsen engine it comes with a 300hr or 24 month warrantee, which is better than Rotax. This company is massive and they manufacture engines for very well known car brands (high end German and some US cars) generators, motor cycles and much more, so you can criticise all you like but chances are that you are driving or have driven behind some of their engine in well known cars, bikes, lawnmowers etc etc. Some competition in the market can only be good for the consumer.
Did you do destructive testing? Metal analysis?….. no way I would risk my life nor the lives of others on cheap Chinese rip offs.
@@darrend5741 We did some testing, hardness and some materials but I obviously did not want to break a brand new engine. Rest assured, there are no quality issues which we could pick up. Anyways, I am pushing the engine hard at 135hp and as I said, so far no issues. I am putting my stamp of approval on it without hesitation.
@@kfaaircraftandadventures I hope everything works out great for you. Please keep the community informed of all developments, good, bad, or ugly. God bless
@@darrend5741 i will do an honest review when I have a couple of hundred hours on it.
You can tell by looking that the parts are high quality? 🤡
a friend of mine had a Hirth F30 blow a crank on climb out. He was killed on impact. The investigation gave me a huge appreciation for metalurgy 101. Cheaper motors are just that. Use accordingly.
That sounds horrible. Sorry for your loss. Hirth would be a great subject for one of these videos. They have sold so many engines and there is so little discussion about them. In fact 2 strokes in general. It would be cool to see a real mechanic tear some down and describe them on their technical merit....and others to describe their use in the real world.
The question is was it modified?
It's not cheap
Does an engine failure mean instant death in an airplane?
@@Mike-01234 no it does not.
I watched your video with Matt. He paid $8k for his a year ago. Now they are up to almost $16k. Were they $10k or less I'd understand buying one. At 2/3 the cost of the real deal I'd pass. The line I found the most comical was that Rotax had no competition so now they are going to have to compete with their own design. Glad you are informing the public but I'll be watching on the sidelines for now.
Had a friend brag how much more his house is worth. I explained it is not his house but his dollar is worth a lot less. Maybe someday the average Joe will wake up to the game. You will eat ze bugs and be happy.
Yup. This is the same company who is now selling wood aircraft plans for $3K. You can buy a used 912 for less then 10K all day long.
@@tylerdurden2644 An average home in Sydney Australia in 2007 costed 400 ounces of gold; now it still costs 400 ounces of gold.
However, in Austrailian dollars you then paid AUD$ 500.000 and now AUD$ 1.400.000
The result of printing money.....
Rtv around the fuel pump scares the shit outta me. Rtv everywhere seems like a hack job and a pita when something has to come apart.
I sealed the carb bowl on my motorbike once with RTV and it actually kinda worked for stopping leaks. But I'd never use it near fuel again. It swells up on the inside a lot and can interfere with the function of the floats. Plus the fuel breaks it down so who knows how long till a jet blocks.
@@Sharft6 an RV builder used it on his fuel line fittings. Eventually a piece swelled and broke off and clogged the line leading to loss of life
I really feel like this company, and the Chinese government supporting it, are building this engine for the military UAV application. China has no domestic demand for civilian light / ultralight aircraft. The international market is not big enough to interest a Chinese company typically. Military UAVs are the only reason to justify such an investment by China. Right now, as I type this, Iran just launched 100s of UAVs on Israel. Who knows how many more waves are coming in the next few days. As such, anything you can do to produce an engine in volume for an application where no durability is needed, you are going to to do it. Using RTV instead of a comparatively expensive and labor intensive gasket / o ring makes sense.
22:11 Compared to EPDM rubber, silicone has around 15 times the permeability to water vapor, so you'd have check coolant levels and top off with water more often.
Zongshen is in fact a motorcycle manufactures, I send some times at the factory asked if I would be interested to develop the 4 cylinder engine, was taken to the “secret” rooms and what is saw was a Rotax .. not interested in to copies , but was well treaded and given some nice gifts. The company owner is a super-rich guy and part of the government …
The Rotax 912 was introduced in 1989. That's 35 years ago. Patents vary by country but its 18 years here in the US. After that its perfectly legal (and not even considered shady) to build "copies" of something. You can't call it a "Rotax", but you can make it identical down to taking the same replacement parts and that's fine.
Good reporting! The cost of parts is what really is the downside of Rotax. Rotax cylinders, rings, pistons cost the same as certified Lycoming/Continental. That is why Rotax engines are never overhauled because the parts cost and the labor cost from Lockwood exceeds the cost of a new engine. Rebuilding.the gearbox (childs play for even an average experienced mechanic) costs $2,800 from Lockwood. Absolutely ridiculous for what amounts to be a simple non EPA compliant motorcycle engine. I hope Zongsen puts a serious dent in the Rotax customer base. I for sure will be buying their replacement parts.
Rotax is a big company , with big overheads and share holders to pay for.
😊
If you want to know about the engine jump to 15 minutes and you will get little. The rest is all "We had a question online that I thought we would ask and now is good time to do that ......." and general word salads. It is a 100% Rotax 912 clone. That is about all. 500 hour warrantee.
Thank you! What an a**holes are those 2 guys.
Looking at current prices the delta isn't as much as I expected. I've used their ATV clones and they haven't ever given me an issue, the carbs have they always gum up faster, I'm not sure if its a material thing or what... the good news on the Gy6/atv is you just put your hand over the intake and crank it and it will usually open up the jets and run. Would be curious to see if their carbs used here have similar issues. 115hp is 10k cheaper and the 100 is 7k cheaper, nothing to sneeze at but... now if they can find other uses (those little cars or something) to increase volume of these types of engines it might pull the cost down for both rotax and zd. The market needs affordable engines so hopefully these have a impact. The 912/914 market is large (in aviation terms), and the IO540 is probably the next popular... that is an area that needs a good slot in replacement as most of the 4 place experimental use it and the price has become preventative for many.
-It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood.
I see details like 17:46 lumpy sealant oozing out of a valve cover & the fuel pump & 20:28 bad welds on the exhaust showing the usual Chinese quality I've come to expect. My opinion on the painted castings is it will retain heat & is likely a sealant for casting flaws. I'm ok-ish with Chinese junk powering my lawn mower or weed eater but I'm standing on the ground when they take a dump! We don't make much here anymore because businesses push "Fine China" products on us for higher profits while China's society promotes cutting corners on quality for profit.
bad welds at 22:28, not 20:28?
nailed it, with chinas deep seated cultural / societal absolute for profit over anything and everything else, if i was trusting my health and safety to an ultralight aircraft engine, i'd save the extra and go rotax.
Stick with Boeing 👍
@@josue_kayI'd take Boeing any day of the week before getting near a Comac.
Good to see Zongshen make a small aircraft engine. I have owned a Zongshen motorcycle that was good and reliable. I also have a Rotax 582 on my ultralight that was way too expensive for what it is.
These will have to be in service for a million fleet hours with excellent reliability before I would even consider one of these.
You're not going to buy an engine period. Even if it was a rotax.
@@devonlove9095 interesting that you know what my plans are. I think it's great to have a lower cost option so I'm rooting for this new engine but I won't risk myself or my family before it's been well vetted.
@glsracer you're not, this is typical of statement of older gen x and baby boomer men. You fit the mold.
@@devonlove9095 except I'm in my early 40s
@@devonlove9095rather pretentious
CKD ZS Aero Engine - 115HP (CA520T) $27,377.00
Rotax 914 UL - 115HP $37,570.00
Prices as of 7 April 24 on respective websites.
Hi Brian, as an alternative to the Rotax, could you please do a review of the Aeromomentum aircraft engine. don’t hear much about them. It would be interesting to hear what they like.
Mark is an incredibly smart guy and their engine looks promising. They would be a great interview.
Competition is always good for consumers
Not when it's at the expense of businesses that don't employ children and hate our country.
Not if it is a cheap knockoff copy of questionable quality from a country whose government hates you...
@@TheSoaringChannel yeah sell your soul to the devil , reallly worth it?
I don't know what is more frustrating.. the fact that they just ripped off a design from Rotax or the fact that Rotax is price gouging?
Patent expired. Legal to copy
Um also china workforce exploited. Capitalism
TBO for these engines?
Aren’t the Rotax engines basically computer controlled? My 912 does all the thinking as far as carb heat, richness at all levels and mixture, warm up, all temps, etc, etc … very, very stable, dependable… (he mentioned the UL Power engines)…. Is China involved with this in any way?
I saw 1000 hrs for the 100hp model
UL Power... no idea which components or maybe internals are sourced from. UL is from Belgium. The more "basic" Rotax is pressure sensing carbs with electronic ignition. Fuel injection (computer controlled) are available on other models of Rotax (912is for example)
2000 hours listed on their website
Carbureted Rotax 912 has no computer. Electronic ignition- yes. Computer- no.
@@rjbishop12 He said iS.
If we wanna keep flying even remotely accessible, we gonna have to start giving engines like this a much lore serious look.
Agreed, the costs & barriers to entry & sustainment need to come down, but cheap Chinese knockoffs of highly questionable quality like this are absolutely not the answer.
People kill me with their comments. They talk like they have so much knowledge
@@johnrisher3007 I'm only an aircraft powertrain design engineer, rated commercial pilot & mechanic and an appointed DER who has been in the industry for 25 years. So yes, it might not amount to much...but it's enough to judge this cheap Chinese knockoff for the piece of junk it very well is. Just sayin'.
@@brianl7695 yeah I understand.
@@brianl7695 no allowance in the sky for errors
As someone who owns a plane and has had Chinese motorcycles with Zongshen engines let me be the first to say, I will never put that CCP made crap in my plane. Shitty welds, horrible QC, horrible customer service, reduced power, lower material quality, and lack of transparency. These are things that Zongshen and its sister companies are repeatedly guilty of. It doesn't really matter if you have a Zong motor in a dirt bike because that's only $1500 for the whole bike but when you're flying over mountains and your engine starts saying "Ching gong pow", your name will quickly become Ho Li Fuk as your pronouns are then changed to "here" and "there."
Hopefully the promised import tariffs and surcharges will keep this crap out of western aviation
I have an update. CKD aero is owned by a Canadian packaging company. CKD has never been aviation before and is struggling to make an aviation busines viable primarily because of a lack of knowledge and experience. Zongsen is a very viable Chinese manufacturer of small engines. The problem is that the US has a 25% customs duty on Chinese products. Canada does not have this duty. CKD has yet to sell this engine into America. There currently is no service or support for this engine in the US. CKD no longer has a relationship with the man in this interview. He now works for Gulfstream in Savannah. Zongsen is making no effort to market this engine in the US. So at the moment (Nov 2024) there is no way to get this engine in the USA other than ordering it from a Canadian dealer in Sherbrooke but you will be paying a 25% custom duty once it crosses the border. My friend tried to buy this engine from CKD and the transaction failed completely for the reasons stated.
Outstanding thank you sir!
I am no chinese fanboy - but....I do have a Zongshen engine in a very quiet inverter generator. It has several hundred hours on it without issue. Doing maintenance on the generator, I cant help but notice how nice the engine castings are and also internal parts (checked the valve clearance at 300h). I also just realized my little 110 pitbike's engine is a Zongshen and is also well built and seems to be of high quality. I swapped a hotter camshaft into this one and the internal components look as quality as the many many Japanese motorcycle engines I have worked on and rebuilt.
They make a lot of stuff thats often branded something else. Ryuoka or whatever. How much the companies such as ssr motorsports or gp-x pretend its in their own factory or not varies.
A very large manufacturer anyways
cope
Between me and y'all... I appreciate the video, and it is good information, however, for the value, being able to use car gas, pricepoint, and power to weight ratios... my money is on aeromomentum. No, I am not affiliated with them in any shape/form/fashion. Thanks for the video.. cant wait to see more on the sonex and vans high wings.
RTV? If they're trying to save time not pinching the O ring by adding adhesive, what else are they cutting corners on? Also, that fuel pump looks like the obsolete style Rotax moved away from. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Mr. Kacsmarek has a tough job ahead of him. He is very careful about using the word “Asia” instead of the word “China” and if you are not proud of where your product is manufactured that’s not a good start. He answers questions about quality and warranty by explaining what those standards and certifications mean but never clearly states the engine meets them. He points out the excellent warranty but never provided an example of how the process would actually play out for a customer. He never said if parts were readily available or in stock but in the event of a major failure, ZS “wants the entire engine back”. What does that mean for the owner? That’s no different than how Rotax does it. To me, this implies he doesn’t want to explain the details because it’s not going to brief well to potential customers. He did admit there are no service centers in the US for this engine yet but he’s working with a guy in a hangar in Florida. He missed the opportunity to explain how ZS will keep their customers informed of component defects, recalls, service or safety bulletins, etc. No mention of the technical data owners or mechanics need to service and repair the engine and where to go to keep it updated. Bolting an engine to an aircraft is about much more than the upfront price and Richard missed an opportunity to convince us the ZS is a good alternative to the Rotax product.
15:40 did I get that correctly? "Helping out Rotax owners" with non-OEM parts from a different manufacturer?😅
26:35 in real engineering, we either use RTV _or_ an O-ring or a gasket or a lip seal. These are all different design elements with a myriad of variations, so I am always eager to learn. But I just don't get why one should be happy with a manufacturer that uses RTV to "quicken" the production process to mount something that is design-wise sealed with an O-ring. This will cause headaches down the road.
I don't want to buy a thing that is a "cheap copy" from a country that is hostile towards mine. So....not an option despite the savings in price. 😢
Will these sentiments be a barrier for sales? i suspect so!
No offence to Richard. Im sure he works hard.
At what point are you going to understand America is the bully on the playground?
Agree
Cheap copy is relative. Another option usually benefits the consumer. If anything it can influence pricing if an option is available.
Then you won't be buying anything... literally
@@WingWalker1 good point
Will Rotax say something about using their IP?
No different from Superior/Titan/ECI building Lycomings right?
I don't think there is anything standing in the way of copying now. All patents/patents pending are well expired by now (from my understanding). Hey... at least they pained it an different color! :-)
@@hangarrat101 very different. Lycoming owned titan and then sold it to Continental which now builds the titan and owns the rights. This seems like a copy that likely is legal since the patent has expired.
@@hangarrat101 No, the situation is different AND legal. No IP infringement.
@@hangarrat101 Patents (when issued) are only valid for 20 years from FILING date. Rotax introduced the base model around 1984. Any patents with that original motor expired over 20 years ago.
That was a lame answer for using RTV. What he should have said was that is a great question and I will get back to you with an answer.
Shitty welds at 22:30
typical Chinese weld
Wow thanks for the call out.
As Jody from youtube weldingtipsandtricks would say “they look like Fido’s butt”!
Shocking . Good spot .
Good call out. Yeah - they're bad! :(
Why do research and develop a new product when you can just copy someone’s hard work.
Why do research when you can use 100 year old technology, lycoming and continental.
If I understand history correctly, they've been making the components for rotax.
@@vf24renegade23Nope.
When a market has competition, the consumer always wins!
Thanks for sharing Brian!
[Edit] If they bring a 916 clone, I'll start paying more close attention. 🤔
[Edit #2] Until I can afford to do anything, I'm just the 🥜 gallery! 😄
22:30 those welds look awful
I'll bet there is no nikasil coating on those cylinders, nor the very close tolerance of cylinder/piston clearance as Rotax has.
I did the certification for the Chinese Sunward Aurora LSA in 2019 that used the Rotax. Back then the engineers mentioned this engine, interesting to finally see it.
One very helpful thing would be a CAD model for mounting points and a feel of size 😬
The 912 must be around $28,000? How much is this engine?
Thought I heard 1/3 that
it started at $8000 in 2017 now is 16000 $, the warranty is great, but what good that will do if you will not be around to collect😅😅😅😅
@@patrickmckowen2999 Yes, I saw that one another video about the engine, thanks!
@@fly4fun24 That's what, half, of a Rotax 912?
It is...that could be a wake-up call for the monopoly we have today. I hope it will shake things up a little, I want puke when I check engine prices it is disgusting
I don't trust Chinese quality and would prefer the original, the best- Rotax.
You are aware the "best- Rotax" has a disclaimer on their non-cert engines saying engine could seize or blow at any moment and kill you? That's how much Rotax cares about you.
Great the more competition brings the price down to make them more reasonable
Can I retrofit fuel injection kit on this engine? Can you sugest a fi kit?
speeduino
Never would have touched a chinese engine before, until I bought a chinese dirt bike. I think it may even be a ZD Zongshen. Starts right up and runs like a top. I would seriously consider a chinese Rotax knockoff if the price was right, and parts were easily obtainable. Bonus points if parts were interchangeable with Rotax.
For the people saying they wouldnt trust a new new engine from china (some having geopolitical tension with them) remember that uou dknt start with a name
Lycoming, Continental and Rotax all started where Zhonshen is now. If anything, Zhongshen is starting from a better place because they're starting from a place of advanced knowledge.
Rotax had to prove themselves and now theyre revered, give these guys the same chance.
cope.
china has a reputation, well earned at that.
@@jmwintenn Reputation for what? Bringing a vast amount of products to market that average Joe can afford not just RichRectumHole's? For enormously increasing the standard of living of probably everyone you know and associate with?
Do you believe all the hobbyist wood workers, metal workers, electronics hobbyists would have access to machine tools, hand tools, parts, instruments etc that is in all the shops, garages, etc of EVRYONE YOU KNOW without Chinese industry supplying it?
You don't have to answer, everyone on this forum knows you don't believe that. If you believe they shouldn't have such things unless it comes from brands personally endorsed by you and at a price point approved by you because, well, they're "unworthy"; well I guess that says mountains about you doesn't it?
What is the RPM on the Prop at take of and cruse speed on your smallest engine .
Rotax needs some competition
I’d love to see a video of the manufacturing facility,
Interesting
Serious question... what happens to the end users of these engines, when China attacks Taiwan, like they promise to do? The USA will have to stop most trade with the chinese, and the end users will have an obsolete engine, no?
If that ever happens I would worry more about getting chips and spare parts for everyday items, electronics, cars, etc.
That’s fear fantasy for the permanent war machine. You should be more concerned about the Chinese economic collapse which is under way.
@@cdeanda Absolutely. That too.
fortunately you can use Rotax parts instead
@@rolnthunder6737 JHC on a stick! If the US becomes embroiled in a war in Asia against China, you are gonna have way more pressing concerns than where to get parts for your toy airplane.
You think people in Ukraine (other than Zelenski) are fretting about the lack of Ferrari's and high end lipstick?
In a global conflagration Real shI^ gonna get REAL, REAL fast.
Why are there so few makers of aviation motors? I'm not a pilot nor a mechanic but as I've looked around at learning to fly I've
kinda thought there wasn't much of a choice? Since there isn't much competition, is that how prices are so high? I don't know
but they seem high priced to the point that even pt 103 planes are hard to get going? I'm only asking - only way to learn and I
am glad to hear this interview. I like replacement of motors & strict standards on nuts/bolts & parts. peace
Several factors. One - there just aren't nearly as many planes built as most other stuff. If you'll look at the total number of any specific model built its probably less than the number of Corollas Toyota sells every 2 weeks. A more niche product will always cost more. If more people were flying and we were building more aircraft (and aircraft engines) the price would be lower, but currently aviation is extremely expensive so not as many people can afford it. Chicken and egg problem. 50-60 years ago they seemed to be building more planes and they were less expensive adjusted for inflation (often 1/2 to even 1/3 the cost of a new plane today when adjusted for inflation).
Secondly, many/most countries place some serious regulations around anything that goes into an aircraft. Even outside of engines and just on avionics/electronics if you look at the stuff for certified aircraft versus what can be used in an experimental, its about double the cost for certified. That has also lead to the increases mentioned in point #1.
And then there is just the realistic bit that most transportation engines like car engines have short bursts of higher RPM while accelerating and then downshift and can keep the car moving at a given speed at a much lower RPM, working the engine less hard. Airplane engines tend to be running high RPM constantly during flight. That just is tougher on an engine and requires higher quality construction and engineering to make it reliable.
I realize how dumb a question I asked & of course I realize not many planes are built but what I was thinking as I said
this is that it seemed to me the big Japanese motorcycle/outboard & car giants are barely doing any & again it's all
about so few being sold but I'm surprised they've not tried. I think I saw some Yamaha Air Craft motors, I think? I'm
watching lots of boating/motorcycle building videos so as I jumped over to planes I'm behind the ball trying to pick
up a lot real fast. I do appreciate your teaching me here, it is why I ask & prices are what keep me from trying to
get into it. Probably smart for me to stay on the ground but I enjoy watching these guys/gals chasing the dream
& money is part of it all, just more of it. And after what you've shared, that must explain all the older planes in
operation? New is super high priced & used at least is built, redo things as needed & you can fly. Yeah, I'm
only now realizing why there are so many pre-2000 built planes. I wasn't too sure but I see it now. Thanks
When it comes to real estate there's three things to rember
1 Location
2 Location
3 Location
When it comes to manufacturing ANEYTHING that is used on an aircraft there are three things to rember
1 Liability
2 Liability
3 Liability
I suppose that makes plenty of sense but I know of several great engine manufacturer's in Japan alone but I guess
the money made on these motors wouldn't be worth the liability? I won't be a pilot but the subject is interesting.
thanks
FAA. Liability. Nuf said.
I love all of the comments about chinese garbage, sure with some things but China also has manufacturing capabilty and quality that rivals North American. It all depends if you want the 50.cent Chinese product or the $2 chinese product. Isn't Continental Chinese? How many other aircraft companies are now Chinese owned? How many parts do you think are sent over from China like he said but built in America? Tons. Make a judgment on the product and not your complete speculation!
Aircraft engines have increased 100% over the last 6 years, I can tell you the metal components haven't increased to enough to justify that increase. They are gouging consumers because they can, making record profits. 60k for some of these engines now with 75 year old technology. I hope more competition comes into the market. The engines are made for a fraction of what they are sold for and the current environment has stifled technological advancements. Maybe if they start losing some business it will force these manufacturers to stop raising prices and start developing some newer technology.
Finally, a commenter with logic!
While I do think aircraft engines are overpriced, like airplanes, liability insurance escrow funds are real, too.
Yes, it will be cheap until they put the competition out of business and then they’ll start charging more for something that is worse. This is the Chinese way wake up the Chinese are not your friends.
Who are your friends? Rotax? Big tip here, NO company is your friend, Corporate customer abuse, malfeasance, operating in not good faith etc is basic corporate policy. You mean nothing to them, if you croak so be it, just make sure you sent the final payment first thanks.
In that sense the Chinese corps are no different than any other.
I worked for a company that had its products copied (500k to 5million each). They copied our products and sold the cheap copy to our existing customers. Put the company under and we all lost our jobs....not friends. They have a motto that says if you can cheat and lie to win ....win. no honour/respect or responsibility. No private industry....think about it.
@@percussion44Zongshen makes drones designed to kill Americans. They are literally our enemies. Keep shilling though.
I'm wondering whether Richard pronounces Zongshen more like "Zonsen" on purpose. It sounds closer to a name like "Johnson" this way and doesn't make it so obvious, that it's a Chinese product. At the Aero exhibition their booth was even branded as Zonsen Aero Engines (not Zongshen).
The Companys name is Zonsen Aero Engines. I visited their factory in China a few weeks ago. It was immaculately clean, well organised and automated. The team there were very friendly and professional.
madam Gravity is always ready to deal with those who value their own lives at the price of the most affordable engine
Nice to know that if I have engine failure and survive the crash, I can get warranty repair.
Not every engine failure leads to a crash. There's plenty of issues that can be just a "take note of that and fix later" type of thing - even noticed on the annual inspection. All a warranty is is a matter of the maker's confidence in the engine. A long warranty puts them on the financial hook for repairs so if they don't think it'll make it that long they won't warrant it for that long.
Most every backyard mechanic and upward knows that RTV silicone swells when exposed to gasoline. Geez, I don't mind competition but a flat out CLONE is disgusting! If they are such great engine builders, then why a verbatim clone? Only problem is it's not built Verbatim, copies never are. You are not going to get the exact same metallurgy and heat treating as the original. This is the same sort of crap going on in the small gas engine world where all the small USA and Japanese engine companies are competing against their own designs being built far cheaper in Asia. Our American and European companies get destroyed over environmental regulations which the Asian companies are not subject too so this is part of why this junk is cheaper. I think some of the welding visible in the video looks like crap too. They probably paint the main castings so they can butter up the rough spots with BONDO and cover it up. This guy only buys genuine GM parts for his GM but thinks it's OK to put Chinese clone parts on a genuine Rotax. You just devalued your channel by showcasing this garbage. This is gross, I'm out of here............................................................................
Doesn't look like it is in direct contact though
All these water-cooled, alternator and battery dependent engines would work great in snowmobiles, ATVs, or PWCs, but I really do like air-cooling, carburetors, and magnetos in airplanes. No worries about coolant leaks in flight and it keeps running normally with total electrical failure.
If these things are the future of aviation, I'm done flying. Electronics might be durable, but I've seen a lot more alternator failures than magneto failures in my 42 years in aviation, and when the battery gets weak, electronic ignition or FADEC just stops working. Backup batteries don't make me feel any better about it. One more thing to add weight and require maintenance, which means one more thing to get neglected.
Aviation R&D is going in the wrong directions.
It's a shame. Anybody else in the free world trying to openly copy a concurrent product would be sued and convicted.
But it's China...
Even if it could be interresting to have cheaper alternatives to the 912, it's not acceptable.
If I had to change my 912, it would surely not be for this product.
They'll even probably copy the documentation, so that they don't even need to try to write one down.
does rotax have patent, has it expired ?
When did the Rotax patent expire???
They were at Aero 2024. Their website says that have a 145HP turbocharged engine. We don't need 912 engines, we need turbos. Nobody wants 912 when 916 is just better.
Their 145 engines seem to be carburettor which is no good, tell them we need injection. We need an engine as good as the 916 at 1/10 the cost.
We need competition in the market place against Rotax who just keep increasing their prices, in the same breath any competition needs to be at leat half the price of the Rotax equivalent because if it isn’t, people will just go for the established item.
attractive pricing and warranty.
Any plans for a certified version ?
As fitted to the Iranian shaed drones...
Is this engine ASTM certified? My plane builder won't install it unless it is...
Idk if you're selling people on price. I'm seeing the CA500 (100hp) go for around $15k. Paramotor Engines sells a 914UL (115hp) for $15k
The inevitable quality issue was addressed in the clip, time will tell I suppose. EDIT: Feels like a bit of an advertisement, but a rep talking about a product, thats gonna happen.
"I think the Zongshen is a very good item, A : Complex, compact, high performance engine due to regulated maintenance standards is always a plus for prolonged engine efficiency and function. I support Zongshen(ZD-CkD Aero.)👍
In a go-kart, mini bike, atv, ok. In an airplane.... Not a chance!!
So basically $15k for a carburated with mags Subaru 4-cylinder. Here's a dumb question: And I'm not an A&P mechanic, if it's an experimental aircraft why not swap automotive engines. Sorting out water cooling and the motor mount structure, which has to play nice balance and harmonics, is too big of a problem?
there are companies that do
The Chinese government allows espionage to take technology from countries around the world. They also do not in enforce worldwide patent laws. So it’s typical for clothing and manufacturing items to have exact clones or knock offs made in China. Often on the same factory floor. Chinese companies will then sell those products to third world (sometime the US) countries for a fraction of the retail price, the US and Europe would pay for the original item.
Why can't China be more like the USA, they don't invade or commit genocide to force their ways on people or take oil or initiate mutiny. I think you should look in your own country first.
Patents on the 912 expired 20+ years ago, nothing illegal with other companies producing clones.
Interesting engine but where can I find data on engine exhaust emissions? Example at X RPM, fuel consumption = X, Exhaust emissions in ppm for CO CO2 NOx unburned fuel... Please thank.
I have purchased products that came out of China , as they are becoming more available in the current market place here in N.America and probably throughout other places on our planet... Several of their products seemed to have initial Q.C. and questionable materials issues, when they first became available...
Now, the Chinese products have become quite reliable and definitely show impressive quality with attention to detail... This engine is one of those.... BTW, the Chinese Products are not the first ones to clone designs that were developed in oyher countries... There are numerous sucessful countries who cloned products that came from other parts of the World 🌎🌍...
I'm wondering what the specific materials are that are used to produce these engines :
What alloy type was used for the high- stress castings (like the center cases, psru cases, heads, cylinder jugs, Pistons, etc.) ? Were these parts checked for cracks, inclusions, air pockets, etc, ?
What type of metal was used for the high-stress steel components (like crankshafts, camshafts, connecting rods, valves and valvetrane component's, piston rings, connecting rod bolts, center case and jug studs, etc.) Are the 2-piece con-rods the fractured type or the machined parting - surface type?
What is the primary triggering device for both of the ignition systems? Points & electronic ? Maybe a medium voltage 'Scintilla' 'shower of sparks' type with points? Do the ignition drives have inpulse couplings ? Are the Ignition leads the standard shielded type?
I'm a BIG fan of carburetors... Those look like clones of the CV Bings... I especially liked the anti-ice intake collars that looked like they transferred the heat from hot oil to keep the Air horn impact air porting, venturi slides & throttle place free of ice...
What are the specs. of this machine? Can the parts supply chain travel from other places, besides China? I'm also wondering about the manuals... are they readily available for these engines and associated equipment like the props, ignition system, induction system, exhaust systems, engine oil cooler heat exchangers and thermostats, electrical power generation and cranking systems ?
If the quality is as bad as in the Chinese owned Continental motors, no thanks. (C180, O-470)
I feel ashamed as a Chinese. This is an unqualified copy.
Who cares?? It’s just an engine and they’ve been copying engines for decades
I assume, since this is thru a major distributor, not “AliBaba”, that the patents of Rotax have expired, and this is a “legal” copy?
is price the elephant in the room? no talk of it at all?
When this happens... usually the people we are interviewing REQUEST that we don't put the price in the video. We ALWAYS ASK PRICE. Things change quickly in this economy and that of course affects price. Currently (as of TODAY) it is below $16k). If you reach out to them... they will of course explain pricing and special offers.
@@ExperimentalAircraftChannel Understood. Thanks
I thought it was amusing when the guy says a bead of silicone makes a better seal than an O ring….
Ho Lee Chit !!!
He's a GM fan, while at the same time trying to convince us that this engine is reliable 🤦♂🤷♂
If its Chinese ,forget it !
I would use two of them in a twin build. Some redundancy sort of thing. Singles is always scary for my imagination. In fact aircrafts, however small, need to have a minimum of two engines just in case...
Interesting how the gentleman says when he replaces parts on his GM vehicle he demands to have GM replacement parts not aftermarket part… the engine he is selling is all aftermarket… I would wait at least five years before I even consider one of these not to mention they are not that much cheaper they should lower the price until they build a reputation
Very Interesting option.
Great video discussion.
Chineseum engine in in my aircraft?? Not a chance..!! Disssasenble and perform some metallurgical inspections.. and how about parts availability?
Sounds promising. Hopefully The quality Is up to par.
I would love to see a company that makes radials.... (No, not you rotec..)
That would be nice for a select few Aircraft certainly. The market "need" however is still for light weight economy (fuel burn) engines.
Because nothing means quality better than "Made in China" .
How many would fly behind an AeroVee basically a VW engine.
Not sure what that has to do with anything?
Thousands of VW conversions registered and flying today. More to come too
@@jpdurr yes but a vw conversion isn’t a Rotax clone so I don’t see the connection. There are also a lot of corvairs flying and a lot of Hondas, Subaru and Chevy. There is a discussion about auto conversions that can go on, but at the moment we should focus on the Rotax clone. Is it as good as the original? Time will tell. Is it better than the original??? Is it better than an auto conversion?
@@grandenauto3214 my reply was on point to @Mike-01234 question about who or how many people would fly using a VW conversion for their power.
I hope they provide some viable alternative and competition to Rotax. Rotax's prices are quite simply eyewatering. Just don't like that they are not offering FADEC as an option (yet). Also, the prices are about 30% more than I think they would warrant, especially being associated with China MFG. I do know that China can and does make quality products (iPhone.....) but in the realm of engines, they have not built a great reputation thus far.
@@grandenauto3214 That is exactly the connection. All these "not me never" types. Do they sing the same song about VW engines made in Mexico, 1960's air cooled Corvair cores, head gasket infamy Subaru conversions etc etc.
If the answer is "NO" to anything but a genuine 0 timed Lycoming or new Rotax, why bother even being on this channel or watching this video?
There are people who desperately want to believe that because they paid enough to make their eyes bleed to Rotax that they somehow got a Safe Product and Rotax Cares about them. They didn't and Rotax doesn't.
Bass Pro Shop sells an ATV called Tracker. Read the customer comments about this vehicle, proudly made by Textron.
Ford blue valve covers boys...
post covid china prices have skyrocketed, so yeah, no, this engine at 16k is worth 9k since its from china. The manufacturer isnt even doing the warranty work, its outsourced to someone else. They claim 2,000 hour tbo and offer 500 hour 3 year warranty lol. So they dont even think it will last 25% of the claimed tbo.
Trust your life to a Chinese aircraft engine to save a few bucks. It's a matter of time.
Whereas others in GA are living to a ripe old age and not crashing into mountains, the desert, and the ocean. Much like people in other high risk hobbies like motorcycle racing, skydiving, SCUBA etc. If you're risk averse then experimental kitplanes etc IS NOT FOR YOU. Go take up knitting while wearing a football helmet.
@@percussion44 The issue is not kitplanes. The issue is kitplanes with junk Chinese engines.
If the RTV use, in addition to a gasket or oring, is standard production proceedure, I think I will pass on this copy.
I find it amazing how many people know how to properly display the US flag. The Union is always to the viewers upper left. Your flag is displayed backwards.
Where was it made?😂
Considering how many people wear American flag clothing, etc., which is also a no-no, this objection seems pointless.
CKD ZS Aero Engine - 145 HP $35, 949.00
When I've got a 10 bob head, I'll wear a 10 bob hat...until then Rotax.
I like the engine and the purpose behind it. Any time you can bring down the cost of owning a plane, you have my vote. I had ASTM certification for the job I had before I retired. BTW, I couldn't help noticing the Maule coffee mug. I fell in love with a Maule Rocket over 50 years ago. It was STOL before STOL became popular.
Maule MX7 was the very first Aircraft I ever flew in. I have a special place in my heart for the MAULE as well. Did a factory tour a few years ago: th-cam.com/video/KzJGoO1bW1s/w-d-xo.html
Guarantee you see more of these in drones killing people than in ultralight aircraft killing people.
Pretty sure most of the genocide drones are lycoming or continental powered.
Make an IO-540
Im sure this engine will never get the trust from people that rotax,lycoming and continental have.
I've flown to China a bunch before I retired and I have bought my share of knock-off products. I wouldn't mount that engine in any airplane. Quality control for Chinese made products is horrible.
Do you fly on Boeing planes? What are your thoughts about their quality control? Do you use Ford, GM, or Dodge vehicles?....
@@Bob-j5o3b Yes - 747-400, 757,767,737 727. I think they build a great product and some of the mistakes I'm seeing on the news tells me they have tried cutting costs to close to the bone. Everything that goes into their jets - airframe wise, should be brought back in house. That's where I would start.
It depends on the company…. Some of the best parts available come from China… but depends on the specific company