The Dominion is the example of a civilization by design. Where all segments are crafted with specific purpose. And all the folly and strength that can be gleaned from such a system. Star trek always provides such lovely mental exercises.
I have a theory as to the inconsistencies in told Dominion history. The Female Founder has said at least once that I can recall: "The Great Link tells us..." Implying that no current Founders were alive then, and that the Great Link may be semi-sentient. Not exactly a hive mind, but more than just a repository for memories. I wonder if the Founders themselves may be uncertain of their own history.
Its just that the changelings that founded the dominion were in the great link, anyone in the great link and anyone who entered after that would be able to see those memories
the Dominion never surrendered in battle but it did have some economical difficulties 2,000 years ago and so it didn't "endure" that well throughout all 10,000 years of its existence
I know suspension of disbelief is important, but as someone who train for boxing in his youth, I have to chuckle at the fight scenes. Imagine Connor McGregor putting a Jem Hadar to sleep with an overhand right or Jon Jones doing a standing guiotine choke on a Vorta.
ya know, that moment that I catch myself sneaking a peak check out this episodes trailer, means that this series has risen to legendary heights! Starve on my love!
Well, the only ones who would probably try to force it are Section 31. Sisko and Co would never willingly allow them to violate Odo's free will. What they did in actuality was a hell of a lot more insidious. After all, they poisoned him and subsequently the entire changeling species.
I love Star Trek , all of the series, but DS9 is by far my favorite. Seasons 1 and 2 are slower but have some very good episodes, don't give up, season 3 is awesome and from there on it's amazing.
I wonder if the Vorta and the Jem Hadar would be immune to Borg assimilation, as well as the Founders. Their genetic structure could resist it, or at least be manipulated to do so. Borg vs. Dominion would be interesting.
I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this comment but I've always thought since first watching ds9 and the original series. That the dominion and the borg makes a better dark reflections for the federation than the mirror universe. Let me explain it always bothered my that people whould go on and on about how the mirror universe and terrain empires were dark reflections of the federation and are scary becouse we seeing normally good guys act evil and do evil things. I'd always give these people a side ways glance of "are you shitting me?" Ever since I watched the original series my reaction to the mirror universe was laughter. These bafoons are the oh so scary possible future versions of the federation? Really they back stab each other like it's a fucking olimpic sport. The fucking skvan from warhammer are more reserved with their nuttiness and their fucking rat men that constantly think everyone is out to get them. How the hell did the tarren empire even get this far with out collapsing in on itself? But the borg and dominion are far more frightening. The Borg show us a possible "federation " that has given up on deplomincy, become too relatent on tech, free will and the rights of the individual are abandoned all beings must be United to archive lasting peace. But lasting peace can not exist along side free will. The dominion on the other hand hasn't gone that far down the rabbit whole. And mainly existence to create a buffer zone between the founders and every one else. But at the very least they try deplomincy frist. And only slowly strip the freedoms of their clients states. It's far more insidious but far closer to the federation where each race can go off and do their own things but the dimion makes it so that no one wants to. You are safe You are proved for We won't even mess around with
Rome lasted half a millennium after the murder of Julius Caesar. And it didn't have one one-millionth of the resources of the "mirror" Empire. What I'm saying is, you're doubts based on their betraying each other "like it's a [f♡€¥ing] olympic sport" doesn't take into account how well an empire can hold together for quite a long time even with constant machinations/assassinations. They're not terrifying because they are "evil", though. They're terrifying because they are us. It's not some "other" with different values; it's our own demons. "Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster. Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein *is* the monster."- Anonymous
Simple enough.. someone that they probably didnt have an answer for. The OTHER enemy the Alpha quadrant... an most the universe could or DID fear more then someone like the Dominion.. I'd say, the BORG. All those numbers would mean exactly NOTHING in the face of a Borg v Dominion engagement especially if alot of Cubes, Spheres and ESPECIALLY Tac Cubes decided to attack in force. Which is known to have happened Post DS9.
@@rurrjh good question if they know of them an perhaps they do, many whom only know of the alpha an beta quadrants and powers like the Federation only cuz of meeting Voyager an crew also are very familiar with Borg. But the series dont go into detail as to if they've ALWAYS had their biggest warships or if they built them to aid with Borg an other non Alpha powers OR if they started building them for the purpose of trying to crush and conquer the Alpha Quadrant.
But their standard ship is the Jem'hadar attack fighter or bugship, roughly equivalent to a Bird of Prey. It's a _patrol craft_ that enforces order and can turn up anywhere in the Dominion as its cheap and exist in vast numbers. The huge battleships they have are for the Founders to travel in, for diplomacy as they are very imposing and to maintain fear over a planet or punish it. Effectively they are Imperial Star Destroyers. The Dominion had _nothing in-between_ in ship size as far as combat vessels, maybe some cargo ships but that would be client races. As for the Borg bug ships would be effective, a Cube would have to target them individually and they would kamikaze into Borg vessels or self destruct rather than be assimilated. A single large vessel can be adapted to and captured, but a swarm of buzzing ships are difficult for Borg if they can take a hit and dodge. It's the same theory behind the Defiant, a dozen of them are more effective vs the Borg than one Sovereign. But the Gamma quadrant was *far away from the Borg,* they may only know of them from Starfleet records, and the bug ships are just an adaption over centuries of maintaining an Empire by patrol boat for _policing shipping_ and battleships for _shore bombardment,_ with no destroyers, frigates, cruisers ect.
@@michaelcunniff6108 Some times a threat is best off as a threat. The Borg being allies doesn't seem right to me. It worked with 7 off 9 but the whole race to me it just would not be right. But that's just my opinion what do you think about The Borg being allies. Respect.
@@theimmortalsuperbeing549 it is yet to be established if the Borg are an actual race. We intentionally are left in the dark about their true origin. They have been abused for plot devices in Voyager. While Seven was a great addition the franchise never explored the Borg in a satisfying way.
I wish it came out that the Founders were descendants of the Progenitors from TNG. It all adds up: their appearance, clothing, penchant for genetic manipulation. It would add another layer to their need for domination: "We created you, therefore we have a right to rule you."
@@schwarzerritter5724 the Vorta may be assimalatable,but no way would the borg ever assimalate a Gem'Haddar,the Founders I think they could find a way.
@@schwarzerritter5724 you may be right about that. i'm not sure the Borg view a pool of goo as the kind of perfection they're looking for.cant really integrate fully either the changeling Borg would always be different than the Humanoid Borg.
@@danielpaquet3963 I mean the Jem'Hadar and Vorta. Borg do not assimilate just because they want more workers and soldiers, but because they seek perfection and because they want to free the universe of individuality. Every individual they assimilate brings them a bit closer to this goal. Take this Borg Speech: "We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." There is nothing to gain from species that did not evolve on their own. If you have assimilated one, you have assimilated all. For the same reason, the Borg do not use clones.
Valid point. In the way of the warrior ep. I quote Chancellor Gowron what he yelled at Sisko when sisko said i doubt history will agree. And Gowron shouted “History is often Written by the Victors”.
I think the Dominion knew about the wormhole long before the Federation did. The founders sent out 100 changelings to gather information. Space is really big, the odds of even one of them happening to find (probably) the only stable wormhole in the galaxy are one to a number that hurts my brain. Also in the episode Chimera we meet another one of the 100 in the Alpha Quadrant. True he could have space whaled from anywhere, but to me it’s strongly implied that the Federation has heard of the planet he was found on. And finally he says he was discovered a few hundred years ago, which would suggest Odo drifted a long time before being found, or a staggered launch over a very long period.
i could never get into the dr who shows but the literature is something i enjoyed. my mother had cancer multiple time through her life so yeah that something i can get behind well done for that
I am watching all of DS9 for the first time. So I am seeing the Dominion War with fresh eyes and it has been my favorite StarTrek story arc of all time. DS9 was a great show!
So when it comes down to it, the entire Dominion is just an insurance policy for the Changelings. It is a way of insulating them and keeping them safe. If anyone wants to get to the. hangelings to hurt them, they have to go through the entire Dominion first.
I guess we've seen or at least heard of the different types of Vorta. Wait till we meet the Public relations Vortas and the "Attorney" Vorta. If you thought Weyoun was oily, imagine those types.
Of course, it's kind of possible that one Weyoun was speaking in some other calendar's years and the other was speaking in 'Federation Standard years.'
The video on the Federation and the Dominion are very good. Will you do videos also on the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians before the war? It would be interesting to have a complete insight on the pre war Alpha Quadrant.
You know, a star trek "anthology" series that left out the federation and followed stories set entirely from the point of view of different races like the dominion, or the split between the cardassians and bajorins, the klingons defeating the race that conquered Kronos, the krenim, the first Q, etc, would be fun af. Anyways, good video.
@lorereloaded can you do a video about those weird scorpion looking aliens that infiltrated Starfleet? I think season 2? 🤔 That was one arc I always thought would come back in the later seasons of TNG but never did. Would be interested in what your thoughts are. Love the channel man
There is a possibility. That the explanation to the difference in founding date of the Dominion. Could be the longer ago date could be a sort of old era Dominion and the closer date could be the current era Dominion.
That episode made a capitalist society more appealing than the trek one where money doesn’t exist but some how Dr Crusher has an account on the Enterprise to charge a bolt of fabric to. The lengths Jake had to go to just buy the card been easier to get a job and make $ for it.
defending Earth sounds pretty interesting. And I am all for cancer research, especially because I had to deal with it as a newborn. Although of course, I have only stories from my parents. And the big operation scar on my torso, that is.
So, it can be difficult to discern sometimes, between what is intentional on the writers part and what is an accident, but I've always thought the 2000 years vs 10,000 years thing to be an accident on the writers part rather than something intentional. That said this is a great analysis on both the strengths and weaknesses of the Dominion. Like the Federation, they went so long without a credible threat that they had become lazy. Resting on the strength of their reputation alone. It's just another example of how the Dominion was a *perfect* foil for the Federation. And it also makes one wonder just how much firepower is actually left in the gamma quadrant after the War...
They way I handle Alpha Canon is to assume that what ever is in alpha canon - I try to make gel. Usually, half of the stuff I do when I say 'in theory' is trying to make what is obviously a mistake..work. I agree it was just someone not paying attention.
@@LoreReloaded I get that, but it can lead some absurd conclusions, depending on how far you take it. I noticed you posted the classic picture of Weyoun 8 with the messed up contact lens. One could make an argument that that represents further mistakes in the Founders cloning process and make comparisons to Weyoun 6. I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just saying that noting the potential for writing mistakes might we worth it in future videos.
The Dominion doesn't need to have had spies on the other side of the wormhole to get the information they have when we first see them. The Jem'Hadar that comes aboard the station says that they have destroyed several ships, as well as the New Bajor colony. We know from the destruction of the Enterprise-C that "destroyed ship" does not necessarily mean "lost with all hands." We also see that the Jem'Hadar are quite capable of boarding and capturing a crippled Federation ship when they do exactly that to the Defiant. Thus, it is logical to assume that they captured some crewmen from some of those "destroyed" ships for interrogation as well as probably stripped the vessels down for any intelligence they could gather from said ships' computers and other systems (and after said disassembly, even the captured ships could be said to have been "destroyed"). Considering the neural VR interface they had, they wouldn't even need to risk serious damage to their prisoners during interrogations. The Dominion could torture and/or play other mind-games with them as much as required, all virtually.
I had a new idea of an analysis, the TNG episode, the offspring. It’s sort of a contiuation of what happend in a measure of a man. I’d really like to see an analysis of that episode. Plz LR
Same, I expected it as a follow up, especially since it seems to violate the court ruling that _Soong type androids_ are granted *full sentient rights.* Data (and Picard, and Starfleet ethics bureau, and…) should have been able to tell that Admiral to go jump and come back for Lal when he had the right to take Worfs son away for analysis and experiments - 3/4 Klingon, 1/4 Human, probably unique in that case. And it was a own goal, Starfleet lost the possibility of Data becoming progenitor of a new species that followed their ideals. P.s a bit of dialogue never spoken by Data and Lt. Barkley from the TNG episode The nth degree… "Excuse me Lieutenant Barkley, sorry for interrupting your violin masterclass.… I was wondering if with your enhanced intellect you could fix my dead daughter Lal. And if you could show me what went wrong and the secret to creating more androids like me, it would be most appreciated." "Certainly Mr Data, I have always appreciated your kindness, let's see, a cascade failure…you did save her engrams? …good. Got it! class dismissed. [grabs a portable data display tablet] let's go to your lab Data, I'll enter the data [wry smile] in this pad as we go, then after we test it I can download all the construction techniques straight into your mind for future offspring … Have you considered letting me upgrade you Mr Data? I have some ideas, although perhaps it's better to do so with your next child after Lal, I'll show you the specifications…
Worth noting that two Vorta (Eris and Weyoun) have given two separate and distinct stories for how their people were inducted into the Dominion; one version has them as a conquered people, the other has them elevated out of gratitude for offering sanctuary to a fugitive shapeshifter. Both Vorta had reason to lie, meaning we probably don't know the real truth.
I believe there is enough evidence to conclude that the Founders did at once coexist with several other species on their homeworld long ago. Weyoon once told a story that supports this in "Faith, Treachery, and the Great River. The Vorta were once small ape-like creatures living in trees and running from the many predators, one day a family of Vorta found a wounded changeling fleeing a group of angry solids. The Vorta hid the changeling, and he promised that we would one day travel the stars and be rulers of the galaxy.
Someone is speaking for the Dominion. I think you may have an uncertain future ahead of you. The Dominion always endures. Long after their enemies turns into dust.
I always found their arrogance extremely telling as they feel they ARE superior to solids as they honestly feel that taking a form of something is to know that something... Which is absurd as one never knows the thoughts of a bird or a rock as they have no form of communication of the real thing to exchange concepts. This arrogance is very pronounced in the changing that never knew about the Great Link or the Founders. Finding solids and taking their forms to understand them must have been a huge shock as the solids are very diverse and individualistic and they could not possibly know a solid by just taking their form, any more than taking the form of a bird is to know the bird. They can't understand it, therefore, they must consider it a threat and control it. This types of fear compound on itself and manifests itself in their aggression. This would be a great reason to use genetically engineered soldiers instead of those solids they feel are under control, giving them the feeling of protection, while having a programmable fighting force to keep themselves 'safe.'
So in classical Chinese lit theres a saying "10000 li" meaning something like "1 million miles away." How likely are the Vorta to use an idiom like that ?
You know we are always told how quickly the Dominion can build ships, could be the Dominion Fleet operates under a Just-In-Time mentality, where they only build what they need at a time. If they only need a small fleet to keep everything in line, they only have a small fleet in service. If they up against a major power, then chug out faster then a chinse factory making cheap crap, expect it is not crap, mostly. They did have weak ventral shields and warp fields slower than an aging Miranda.
Yet have a huge ass armada that would have dwarfed anything the major powers in the alpha/beta could have dealt with if it wasn't for the deus ex machina in the worm hole.
@@U9B True, but if they had it all of the time, then the Domion could have sent a fleet there and parked in front of the wormhole to keep anyone there. They just needed 2-3 years to build it up to invade the Alpha Qudrant.
@@raw6668 They weren't really anticipating a conflict with the Alpha Quadrant prior to the battle of the Omarion Nebula where joint intelligence agencies from both Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order attempted a first-strike on the founders. Well they were but the stages of the Founder's plan was in subversion and sabotage first. They infiltrated Federation, Klingon, and Romulan institutions 2 years prior to the Omarion incident (which is how Worf and Garak found the real Bashir and Mortak) which involved pitting the factions against each other in a full scale conflict to weaken them (the only side not infiltrated was Cardassia ironically). It wasn't because the Founders were weak and couldn't fight a combined Alpha/Beta alliance, but why should they? They are there for victory. Now if we're going by fleet capabilities and logistics? The Omarion Nebula battle is possibly a much more telling sight and site. What you fail to realize is that such an incursion didn't even show the great strength of the Gamma quadrant's own super power. You have to consider how both fleets were utterly decimated, routed, and destroyed with an armada coming out the Worm Hole after the initial first wave of Dominion vessels getting in contact with the Defiant when Dukat defected. The projected 2nd wave would have uttered a doomsday scenario since such a massive garrison would have prioritized an offensive while the Dominion can resupply from Cardassia prime from their major shipyards before the Klingons could even mobilize a defense back home (they were beaten aback by the Dominion currently stationed there). The minefield and the wormhole aliens effectively gave everyone in the A/B side of the galaxy a fighting chance and barely pulled a win from the first wave's own installation without Gamma reinforcements. This is not considering the super nova bomb the fake Bashir attempted to enact, the Klingon vs Cardassia war from a fake Martok, and Senator Vreenak's own interest in Romulan's peaceful accord with the Dominion during a time when the Dominion stationed in the Alpha Quadrant was winning pretty hard. Do not underestimate the power of the Dominion if anything their ability to fight from across the galaxy on a first wave encampment versus the combined effort of the Federation, Klingon and later Romulan factions speak a lot (they had help from Cardassia and later the Breen). Can you even imagine if that garrison made it through uninterrupted at the battle of DS9? It'd turn Wolf 359 into the Stand-off of Derna (when Bajor bluffed Romulan forces off their moon).
@@raw6668 Ok at the battle of Deep Space 9 once the minefield was taken away the Dominion had a collective 1,400 ships in total (probably a combined garrison of both dominion and cardassian).
The Changlings themselves did not actually need any ships, only their solid pawns needed them. To make sense of the 10,000 years vs 2,000 years perhaps the 8,000 in question they were pre-Founders. What I mean is that in those beginning 8,000 years they were settings up, they are immortal after all, and the Vorta were only created 2,000 years ago.
I wouldn't be suprised if you're thoery on the Dominion is true as it does fit what we know about them. I'm more suprised that the Founders realized they are hypocrites and don't care when usually in both real life and in most fiction, people and factions with that much ego usually are blissfully unaware of the irony of their own hypocrisy.
Sto made a really great back story for the dominion, and was somewhat realistic in my mind as to what would happen after the end of ds9 for the dominion.
thier were a few books that mentioned the USS Columbia NX-02 was found in the gamma quadrant. The ship was found buried in the ground. They don't say how it might have gotten their, but it is possible the ship may have accidentally went through the wormhole and was attack by the Jemmie's and thats were they got their information.
Question, will you use anything from STO in your lore videos on Alpha Canon? The Victory is Life storyline did reveal some more about Dominion History. And as for how STO relates to Alpha Canon, currently Cryptic is working more closely with the Discovery writers and very likely the upcoming Picard series writers to try to keep STO consistent with the ongoing series
I would wager that the changelings actually liked Starfleet, which was why they were allowed to come and go so freely. It was the other powers the changelings hated, Cardassians were State first, Romulans were always scheming, Klingons endlessly lusted for war. The changelings wanted peace and safety for themselves. Each changeling would be, arguably, worth far more than many civilisations. This was a being that seemed capable of living anywhere, learn everything and without a lifespan. It would be impossible to comprehend the true value of one if given power and motivated to govern a civilization well.
I’ve been curious why the prophets or wormhole aliens who are of Bajor built the wormhole to the Gamma quadrant? Did the prophets have dealings with the Dominion 10k years ago?
Interesting idea. Who's to say one of the Bajoran lightships didn't accidentally sail through the wormhole and wound up in the Gamma Quadrant. Maybe that's how the Dominion first became aware of sentient life in another quadrant.
It's never been explicitly stated. But in the episode The Hunted. Tosc, has the ability to be invisible, and looks awfully close to the jem'hadar. I would say that Tosc, is the species that the founders chose to make into jem'hadar.
I'd love to see what became of the Dominion following the war and their defeat. With disease crippling the Founders and their ability to shapeshift, their ability to spy on their enemies and subjugated states would have been gutted. Odo's influence might help the Founders to take a more relaxed attitude, but between their weakened intel and their military defeat, they wouldn't have had much of a choice.
good video i never realised how much they wanted odo but dont that bring in the question why didnt the bajoran goverment under advisement from everyone else put odo in a pot and give him to the dominion and avoid the war
That sounds a lot like you think of Odo as a piece of property or worse yet a slave . In the final episode Odo did go back and the Founders did give up the Alpha quadrant to get him back and no one was forced to do anything at gunpoint (as you suggest) . See ? No need to resort to that "Needs of the many .." BS Star Trek likes to throw in every so often .
@@I_am_Diogenes no not a slave or property but he is selfish how many millions died because he wouldnt go back the last episode shows what would have happened if he went back at the beginning of the war and acted like an envoy or emissary he could have even turned the link to the federations side and made a change for good
@Zoom Why change the subject ? We are talking about someone else making a decision for Odo since that is what you proposed not why Odo did what he did . Act like an envoy from the Dominion ... based on what authority from who ? Back to your first post , If someone else being able to force , YES FORCE , him to go back then what does it make him if not a slave or property ? A sacrifice ? well obviously that is intended but what do you call someone who has no choice in the major life decisions in THEIR OWN life ?
The Founders are perfect for joining the Federation if only they could forgive the solids. There is no civilization better able to protect them, not even their own giant slave state.
The Cardassian scientist who "discovered" Odo said that they didn't even know he was alive. I could imagine that when the Founders were discovered, the solids who discovered them started to destroy them the way you would an infestation. Then Founders fought back, causing the solids to spread word of a crazy fluid killing people, resulting in the first contact for the Founders being a war of extermination. I think this would leave the Founders thinking that in order to live they must have, 1 - the biggest gun/stick in the yard (the Jem Ha'dar), and 2 - solids who aren't subject to them are threats.
That is an interesting idea.... Along similar lines: Since the great link was effectively a lake/ocean it's not unreasonable to think that a species would make machines to "purify" the "tainted water" and unknowingly killing changelings. (The episode where Odo "adopts" an infant changeling shows that unless motivated and trained they just like to sit around as goo)
The changlings may of also not telling the truth about the early years, That they were the hunted by the solids and The Changlings struck back. I believe The Changlings who showed their superior attitude on DS9, Done so back in the past and Tried to take over the Gamma quadrant and Lost. One of the Weyuon's said in the past his ancestors added a wounded changling who promised them their place in the new order?
Dominion being 10,000 years old is dubious. Even if human technological progress speed is the exception, the dominion should be much more advanced after this much time. Dominion knowing about the federation, why not? They probably have spies (local or changeling) on most planets in high positions. They probably knew of the Federation as early as s1e5. And if that stupid species in Move Along Home knew of the wormhole, the dominion surely did, too. A changeling on board of one of those ships and you got all you need. Give them access to a public terminal to download some general history and information and bring it back. The Feds are notoriously lacking in security after all.
"Dominion being 10,000 years old is dubious. Even if human technological progress speed is the exception, the dominion should be much more advanced after this much time." Not necessarily. In the absence of any challenge to overcome progress would slow or stall. If all they do is fly around enslaving lesser developed species that pose no threat, they have no incentive to develop any further than they need to.
@@trajan74 That is something I hear often but that doesn't make it right. You can't just apply concepts of biological evolution to technological progress. Once scientific advancement of a society has reached a certain point, their need for new resources will lead to continued research. Scarcity of resources is a consistent and continued "evolutionary" pressure. You don't just stop researching and chill for 5000 years.
@@yaldabaoth2 Well they are far ahead of the Fed in terms of their genetic manipulation techniques. They engineered the quickening, the Jem Hadar are either a completely artificial species or a lesser species that was given sentience, and the Vorta were raised up from a lower primate species. "Once scientific advancement of a society has reached a certain point, their need for new resources will lead to continued research." Perhaps that's true of societies that consume vast resources. But the Founders don't consume anything. They have no desires other than to be left alone. The Vorta have no desire other than service. The JemHadar only desire victory or death in war. The white is produced from natural, renewable sources. It's safe to say the resource consumption of the 3 top races is lower than the average American in 2019. Their servant worlds' resource issues are their own problem. The Jem'Hadar only need to be advanced enough to keep them in line. "Scarcity of resources is a consistent and continued "evolutionary" pressure." Hence the numerous conquests. "You don't just stop researching and chill for 5000 years." I said tech advancement could also slow down in the absence of external pressures.
Part of the issue that the Federation has is that they have severe restrictions on genetic engineering and manipulation due to the Eugenics Wars. If it weren't for that they might have some parity on the Dominion's level. Also keep in mind that apparently Section 31 doesn't seem to adhere to these restrictions with the disease they deployed on the Founders.
A couple of interesting what if's: The *wormhole* and the *virus.* [edit…Warning: essay] What if Bashir never discovered* that Section 31 was behind the changeling virus (or didn't succeed in tricking Slone for the cure) and it carried on till it's conclusion. The Founders all die, what happens to the Dominion, does it just collapse, do the Jem'hadar commit mass suicide, go on a final rampage, or become free? Does another race take control? Or does Starfleet move into the Gamma quadrant and start recruiting Federation worlds there? The more speculative what if involves the wormhole, what if it wasn't discovered? Alpha quadrant politics is massively different, but assume the Federation keeps expanding** at a slow and steady pace (unless the Breen energy damper takes out everyone without that lucky Klingon ship in some future conflict) interrupted by acts of Borg. Voyager is still lost and returns with the power up, eventually Starfleet reaches the Gamma quadrant with a vastly higher tech level and maybe a lot more telepathic species (that would detect changling replacements by their psychic block) and foreknowledge from neighboring powers. In that situation the Dominion should be toast. *Odo never gave a sample before leaving for Cardassia, Section 31 erased Bashir's short term memory after he declined recruitment so he didn't know about Section 31, or the most sneaky, they cured Odo after he infected the others to cover their tracks - it would mean that the infection _started_ after last contact between Odo and the female Founder, which exonerates the Federation and enables Section 31 to frame the Breen, so as a final act the Dominion destroy a threat to the Federation (the Breen _"had planned" to take over the Dominion_ once the founders died, that's why they joined…). Once all the other changings die Odo is head of the Dominion, so Starfleet is head of the Dominion and does its usual moral thing of slowly changing them to follow Federation (public) ethics. Meanwhile everyone else is 'respectful' of Starfleets power with its Dominion client state. ** An interesting video series could be made about what if the wormhole was never discovered, what would have happened over the period of DS9, and what were Section 31's plans? (There has been something related by you about how the Federation left its citizens out to dry, because I did post a big what if before as a comment about the Marquis). Basically does the Cardassian cold war go hot due to arranged circumstances (by the Marquis and/or Section 31) causing the Cardassians to commit atrocities against Federation citizens that even Starfleet can't ignore. Starfleet wins (maybe with Klingon help, to solidify the alliance) and gets some strengthening and militarizing without violating its core philosophy, but then what. And is that a likely scenario? The Breen stay insular and don't reveal their ace. What about the Romulans, would they ally with the Cardassians out of mutual need? Klingon politics took a turn with a Federation war then fighting side by side and finally Martok. Did the Dominion war ironically save the Federation? It had a massive effect on the culture (and the military strength and philosophy). What would the Alpha quadrant look like in ten years if it never happened?
yeah i think there s a hidden history there where maybe the founders started something with solids and a war broke out, maybe the changlings here hunted down for a reason.
Didn’t the female changeling say the solids had previously exploited her people on one time? Perhaps the changelings simply are not the original Founders, but a subservient race that simply took over at some point.
I always thought that the Vorta and Jem Hadar weren't the only subjugated species. The founders may have genetically manipulated dozens of species over their career. It'd be a great advantage to them. An engineering race to build their ships, a logistical race to manage their resources. I always suspected that if the Cardasians stayed with the Dominion long enough, they too would be genetically manipulated.
Even so, the changelings are well known for their lies and deceptions. It's doubtful they would have allowed the Federation continued exploration through the wormhole. Quite simply, they wished to conquer the other side, regardless of Odo.
They would have won the war if not for the wormhole aliens, but the founders would have been genicided by section 31. So I guess in the end everyone dies and there's a giant power vacuum across two quadrants.
No? What did they lose? A bunch of clones and a few (well, quite a lot probably) of ships. They can probably rebuild and no one in the gamma quadrant will ever know what happened in the alpha quadrant.
when the changeling was journeying to the homeland of the changelings we find out that he can turn into inanimate objects. we also know about organic star ships. the idea that they needed some sort of infrastructure is in fact false, they could be the infrastructure themselves.
Except when you consider they dont want to die and so would probably make ships instead of be them..unless your arguing every dominion ship is a changeling
what if the dominion created the borg? as a way to secure their flank. maybe they used the borg to keep other powers too busy to mount a major assault on dominion space, thus they didn't have to spend on defense. the borg would act as a proxy.
When Weyoun 4 and 8 talks about the 2000 and 10000 year periods why are we assuming that their years are 365 days? Earth is one planet in BILLIONS with different orbital periods... with that logic Weyoun 8 could of been refering to the Vorta homeworld orbital period that could be 5 times faster than Earths, etc?
@G Will hahaha. Touche. I wondered how a galactic standard week could be one of our hours when many of the planets in the goldielox zone have rotational periods longer than many of our days and even weeks.
At least ENT, DS9 Trek and previous series had some continuity errors due to lack of budget and not having the ability to hire the same production team for an entire season. What is STD's excuse with 8 million per episode, and they can't even remember what happened in their first season. Going to CBS canon camp is just a couple days of 100k bar a food tabs for lunch. CBS Executives must skim off the top of that big fat pile of cash. 100% chance the Red Angel is Burnham or the Jetson's Lady, I will take anyones bet, but only if $20 or under.
The Founders caring about their species before everything else in existence sounds much more human than the humans in Star Trek tbh. Don't The Borg act like that too (unless the drone's programing was corrupted).
Start with if I was to HYPOTHESIZE not theorize. I don't know why there's so many people that don't know what a theory is. I suppose is a matter of common usage. Don't be mad I'm just trying to be helpfu.
Looking at Dominion tech. They only seem to be decades not centuries ahead of the Federation. Look at our own present military vs one 100 yrs ago. The Dominion should have been able to sweep aside the Federation with little effort.
terry Simmons good point. Yeah if you armed a small country say Israel with modern day weapons, and had them fight a much larger country with WW1 tech they would easily win.
The idea that they're 10,000 years old doesn't make sense, considering that amount of time, just through word of mouth knowledge would have spread about them to the Alpha quadrant, and the opposite would be true, knowledge of10,000 years old Alpha quadrant civilisations and species would have made its way everywhere else too, so at the very least the Alpha quadrant may have heard of something called the Dominion, but the Dominion wouldn't know about the Federation, only pre-fed civilisations.
I doubt very much the dominion has had space fairing technology for 10.000 years or 2000 years They would be so advanced nothing could stand up to them.
not necessarily, if they hadn't faced any real challenges for the majority of that time they could have suffered form cultural/technological stagnation.
i would be great if Discovery would start a story Arc of the founders being hunted down by all races the shit could go back to the past or something i guess
The Dominion is the example of a civilization by design. Where all segments are crafted with specific purpose. And all the folly and strength that can be gleaned from such a system. Star trek always provides such lovely mental exercises.
We also have such a Society.
Woman were RAISED to be without Morals, as far as i can see.
People genuinly believe that being pervert is alllllrighty.
I have a theory as to the inconsistencies in told Dominion history. The Female Founder has said at least once that I can recall: "The Great Link tells us..." Implying that no current Founders were alive then, and that the Great Link may be semi-sentient. Not exactly a hive mind, but more than just a repository for memories. I wonder if the Founders themselves may be uncertain of their own history.
I love this theory!
Its just that the changelings that founded the dominion were in the great link, anyone in the great link and anyone who entered after that would be able to see those memories
Nice observation and while I suspect it's mostly a writing kind of thing, it DOES open up a whole possible history to explore. Well done!
the Dominion never surrendered in battle but it did have some economical difficulties 2,000 years ago and so it didn't "endure" that well throughout all 10,000 years of its existence
Yeah, the Dominion is the most effective spies in the Trek Universe. Its like an entire planet of Simon Tarses
2:00 I was laughing my ass off when I saw that in the last episode of DS9. His contact lens is out of place. It happened a lot of Weyoun. Lol
1:57 I can't tell which way Weyoun is looking XD
his contact lens slipped but it made him look creepy they should have made him look like that all the time
Criticism of the Founders and the Dominion? I think someone wants a visit from the Jem'hadar.
and a dose of the quickening
I know suspension of disbelief is important, but as someone who train for boxing in his youth, I have to chuckle at the fight scenes. Imagine Connor McGregor putting a Jem Hadar to sleep with an overhand right or Jon Jones doing a standing guiotine choke on a Vorta.
I think someone wants a medal from Star Fleet
ya know, that moment that I catch myself sneaking a peak check out this episodes trailer, means that this series has risen to legendary heights!
Starve on my love!
You know what kills me.
If the Dominion would have given up the whole Alpha Quadrant for Odo, it seems odd to me that no one ever tried to force it.
Well, the only ones who would probably try to force it are Section 31. Sisko and Co would never willingly allow them to violate Odo's free will. What they did in actuality was a hell of a lot more insidious. After all, they poisoned him and subsequently the entire changeling species.
The Founders (and Weyoun) are the only ones who knew that. That's a pretty big vulnerability to let get out in the open.
I really have to watch Deep Space Nine.
Season 1 is kind of slow but it helps build the characters. Once the Dominon shows up it really gets good.
Probably my favorite series. Other series had better episodes, but DS9 was probably the best as a series.
I love Star Trek , all of the series, but DS9 is by far my favorite. Seasons 1 and 2 are slower but have some very good episodes, don't give up, season 3 is awesome and from there on it's amazing.
I keep rewatching it for dominion war
@@jipillow1 i think the one episode where some klingons die one of them almost says victory is life
I wonder if the Vorta and the Jem Hadar would be immune to Borg assimilation, as well as the Founders. Their genetic structure could resist it, or at least be manipulated to do so. Borg vs. Dominion would be interesting.
I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this comment but I've always thought since first watching ds9 and the original series. That the dominion and the borg makes a better dark reflections for the federation than the mirror universe.
Let me explain it always bothered my that people whould go on and on about how the mirror universe and terrain empires were dark reflections of the federation and are scary becouse we seeing normally good guys act evil and do evil things. I'd always give these people a side ways glance of "are you shitting me?"
Ever since I watched the original series my reaction to the mirror universe was laughter. These bafoons are the oh so scary possible future versions of the federation? Really they back stab each other like it's a fucking olimpic sport. The fucking skvan from warhammer are more reserved with their nuttiness and their fucking rat men that constantly think everyone is out to get them.
How the hell did the tarren empire even get this far with out collapsing in on itself?
But the borg and dominion are far more frightening. The Borg show us a possible "federation " that has given up on deplomincy, become too relatent on tech, free will and the rights of the individual are abandoned all beings must be United to archive lasting peace. But lasting peace can not exist along side free will.
The dominion on the other hand hasn't gone that far down the rabbit whole. And mainly existence to create a buffer zone between the founders and every one else.
But at the very least they try deplomincy frist. And only slowly strip the freedoms of their clients states. It's far more insidious but far closer to the federation where each race can go off and do their own things but the dimion makes it so that no one wants to. You are safe
You are proved for
We won't even mess around with
I agree
I never liked mirror universe episodes either
Dude, I couldn't agree more. I've been saying that for years.
Rome lasted half a millennium after the murder of Julius Caesar. And it didn't have one one-millionth of the resources of the "mirror" Empire. What I'm saying is, you're doubts based on their betraying each other "like it's a [f♡€¥ing] olympic sport" doesn't take into account how well an empire can hold together for quite a long time even with constant machinations/assassinations. They're not terrifying because they are "evil", though. They're terrifying because they are us. It's not some "other" with different values; it's our own demons.
"Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein is not the monster. Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein *is* the monster."- Anonymous
Another great video as always. Thanks for the upload.
Here is an idea. look at the sheer f--king size of Dominion ships. Who were they supposed to fight? Who else is in the Gamma Quadrant.
rurrjh I would say with ships that size, they weren’t expecting ANYONE to fight them.
Simple enough.. someone that they probably didnt have an answer for. The OTHER enemy the Alpha quadrant... an most the universe could or DID fear more then someone like the Dominion.. I'd say, the BORG. All those numbers would mean exactly NOTHING in the face of a Borg v Dominion engagement especially if alot of Cubes, Spheres and ESPECIALLY Tac Cubes decided to attack in force. Which is known to have happened Post DS9.
@@robertagu5533 The Dominion must know about the Borg. Did they start building the really big ships. after they encountered the federation
@@rurrjh good question if they know of them an perhaps they do, many whom only know of the alpha an beta quadrants and powers like the Federation only cuz of meeting Voyager an crew also are very familiar with Borg. But the series dont go into detail as to if they've ALWAYS had their biggest warships or if they built them to aid with Borg an other non Alpha powers OR if they started building them for the purpose of trying to crush and conquer the Alpha Quadrant.
But their standard ship is the Jem'hadar attack fighter or bugship, roughly equivalent to a Bird of Prey. It's a _patrol craft_ that enforces order and can turn up anywhere in the Dominion as its cheap and exist in vast numbers.
The huge battleships they have are for the Founders to travel in, for diplomacy as they are very imposing and to maintain fear over a planet or punish it. Effectively they are Imperial Star Destroyers.
The Dominion had _nothing in-between_ in ship size as far as combat vessels, maybe some cargo ships but that would be client races.
As for the Borg bug ships would be effective, a Cube would have to target them individually and they would kamikaze into Borg vessels or self destruct rather than be assimilated. A single large vessel can be adapted to and captured, but a swarm of buzzing ships are difficult for Borg if they can take a hit and dodge. It's the same theory behind the Defiant, a dozen of them are more effective vs the Borg than one Sovereign.
But the Gamma quadrant was *far away from the Borg,* they may only know of them from Starfleet records, and the bug ships are just an adaption over centuries of maintaining an Empire by patrol boat for _policing shipping_ and battleships for _shore bombardment,_ with no destroyers, frigates, cruisers ect.
The Borg should be the biggest threat in the whole ST Universe but I feel they have been purposefully down played.
Remember Guinean said to picard... About how borg sees federation...and there will come a time where you may be able to reason with them
@@michaelcunniff6108 Some times a threat is best off as a threat.
The Borg being allies doesn't seem right to me.
It worked with 7 off 9 but the whole race to me it just would not be right.
But that's just my opinion what do you think about The Borg being allies.
Respect.
@@theimmortalsuperbeing549 it is yet to be established if the Borg are an actual race. We intentionally are left in the dark about their true origin. They have been abused for plot devices in Voyager. While Seven was a great addition the franchise never explored the Borg in a satisfying way.
I wish it came out that the Founders were descendants of the Progenitors from TNG. It all adds up: their appearance, clothing, penchant for genetic manipulation. It would add another layer to their need for domination: "We created you, therefore we have a right to rule you."
Like the Ori in SG1?
@@Dave102693 kinda.
tbh... You put out AMAZING content even though you only have 55k subscriptions... keep up this work ethic no matter what...
Maybe the Borg are putting off assimilating the Dominion because they currently have no means of assimilating the Founders.
Engineered species like the Jem'Hadar or Vorta are worthless to the Borg and they do not know what or where the Founders are.
@@schwarzerritter5724 the Vorta may be assimalatable,but no way would the borg ever assimalate a Gem'Haddar,the Founders I think they could find a way.
@@danielpaquet3963 The question is not of the Borg can assimilate them but if they want to.
@@schwarzerritter5724 you may be right about that. i'm not sure the Borg view a pool of goo as the kind of perfection they're looking for.cant really integrate fully either the changeling Borg would always be different than the Humanoid Borg.
@@danielpaquet3963 I mean the Jem'Hadar and Vorta. Borg do not assimilate just because they want more workers and soldiers, but because they seek perfection and because they want to free the universe of individuality. Every individual they assimilate brings them a bit closer to this goal. Take this Borg Speech:
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
There is nothing to gain from species that did not evolve on their own. If you have assimilated one, you have assimilated all. For the same reason, the Borg do not use clones.
Valid point. In the way of the warrior ep. I quote Chancellor Gowron what he yelled at Sisko when sisko said i doubt history will agree. And Gowron shouted “History is often Written by the Victors”.
I think the Dominion knew about the wormhole long before the Federation did. The founders sent out 100 changelings to gather information. Space is really big, the odds of even one of them happening to find (probably) the only stable wormhole in the galaxy are one to a number that hurts my brain. Also in the episode Chimera we meet another one of the 100 in the Alpha Quadrant. True he could have space whaled from anywhere, but to me it’s strongly implied that the Federation has heard of the planet he was found on. And finally he says he was discovered a few hundred years ago, which would suggest Odo drifted a long time before being found, or a staggered launch over a very long period.
Loving the custom intros for each series!
I wish i had a tenth of Lores editing abilities.
i could never get into the dr who shows but the literature is something i enjoyed. my mother had cancer multiple time through her life so yeah that something i can get behind well done for that
I am watching all of DS9 for the first time. So I am seeing the Dominion War with fresh eyes and it has been my favorite StarTrek story arc of all time. DS9 was a great show!
I really like the Outro you've got going on these videos!
So when it comes down to it, the entire Dominion is just an insurance policy for the Changelings. It is a way of insulating them and keeping them safe. If anyone wants to get to the. hangelings to hurt them, they have to go through the entire Dominion first.
I guess we've seen or at least heard of the different types of Vorta. Wait till we meet the Public relations Vortas and the "Attorney" Vorta. If you thought Weyoun was oily, imagine those types.
Funnily enough, a mirror universe Weyoun moonlights as a prosecutor in a Section 31 novel!
you and your channel are not cancer, i enjoy what you have to share more so on the borg :)
Really good work mate - please keep it up!
Say on your side of the galaxy and we'll say on are side that sounds fair to me
Of course, it's kind of possible that one Weyoun was speaking in some other calendar's years and the other was speaking in 'Federation Standard years.'
The video on the Federation and the Dominion are very good. Will you do videos also on the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians before the war? It would be interesting to have a complete insight on the pre war Alpha Quadrant.
Lovin your new format Lore. it's awesome :D
You know, a star trek "anthology" series that left out the federation and followed stories set entirely from the point of view of different races like the dominion, or the split between the cardassians and bajorins, the klingons defeating the race that conquered Kronos, the krenim, the first Q, etc, would be fun af. Anyways, good video.
@lorereloaded can you do a video about those weird scorpion looking aliens that infiltrated Starfleet? I think season 2? 🤔 That was one arc I always thought would come back in the later seasons of TNG but never did. Would be interested in what your thoughts are. Love the channel man
That was a brilliant intro piece :)
The federation really got lucky in the dealings with the dominion
There addicted to the bliss of the great link...
There is a possibility. That the explanation to the difference in founding date of the Dominion.
Could be the longer ago date could be a sort of old era Dominion and the closer date could be the current era Dominion.
This is all very interesting but when are you going to do a video on the _Soulless Minions of Orthodoxy?_
😂
That episode made a capitalist society more appealing than the trek one where money doesn’t exist but some how Dr Crusher has an account on the Enterprise to charge a bolt of fabric to. The lengths Jake had to go to just buy the card been easier to get a job and make $ for it.
“Well, if you don't need _money,_ you certainly don't need mine.”
LOL.
How dare you doubt the word of the Founders! That violates Dominion blasphemy laws.
I told my local Vorta she has sent the Jem Hadar to reeducate this heretic
defending Earth sounds pretty interesting. And I am all for cancer research, especially because I had to deal with it as a newborn. Although of course, I have only stories from my parents. And the big operation scar on my torso, that is.
So, it can be difficult to discern sometimes, between what is intentional on the writers part and what is an accident, but I've always thought the 2000 years vs 10,000 years thing to be an accident on the writers part rather than something intentional. That said this is a great analysis on both the strengths and weaknesses of the Dominion. Like the Federation, they went so long without a credible threat that they had become lazy. Resting on the strength of their reputation alone. It's just another example of how the Dominion was a *perfect* foil for the Federation. And it also makes one wonder just how much firepower is actually left in the gamma quadrant after the War...
They way I handle Alpha Canon is to assume that what ever is in alpha canon - I try to make gel. Usually, half of the stuff I do when I say 'in theory' is trying to make what is obviously a mistake..work. I agree it was just someone not paying attention.
@@LoreReloaded I get that, but it can lead some absurd conclusions, depending on how far you take it. I noticed you posted the classic picture of Weyoun 8 with the messed up contact lens. One could make an argument that that represents further mistakes in the Founders cloning process and make comparisons to Weyoun 6. I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just saying that noting the potential for writing mistakes might we worth it in future videos.
The Dominion doesn't need to have had spies on the other side of the wormhole to get the information they have when we first see them. The Jem'Hadar that comes aboard the station says that they have destroyed several ships, as well as the New Bajor colony. We know from the destruction of the Enterprise-C that "destroyed ship" does not necessarily mean "lost with all hands." We also see that the Jem'Hadar are quite capable of boarding and capturing a crippled Federation ship when they do exactly that to the Defiant. Thus, it is logical to assume that they captured some crewmen from some of those "destroyed" ships for interrogation as well as probably stripped the vessels down for any intelligence they could gather from said ships' computers and other systems (and after said disassembly, even the captured ships could be said to have been "destroyed"). Considering the neural VR interface they had, they wouldn't even need to risk serious damage to their prisoners during interrogations. The Dominion could torture and/or play other mind-games with them as much as required, all virtually.
I had a new idea of an analysis, the TNG episode, the offspring. It’s sort of a contiuation of what happend in a measure of a man. I’d really like to see an analysis of that episode. Plz LR
Same, I expected it as a follow up, especially since it seems to violate the court ruling that _Soong type androids_ are granted *full sentient rights.*
Data (and Picard, and Starfleet ethics bureau, and…) should have been able to tell that Admiral to go jump and come back for Lal when he had the right to take Worfs son away for analysis and experiments - 3/4 Klingon, 1/4 Human, probably unique in that case.
And it was a own goal, Starfleet lost the possibility of Data becoming progenitor of a new species that followed their ideals.
P.s a bit of dialogue never spoken by Data and Lt. Barkley from the TNG episode The nth degree…
"Excuse me Lieutenant Barkley, sorry for interrupting your violin masterclass.… I was wondering if with your enhanced intellect you could fix my dead daughter Lal. And if you could show me what went wrong and the secret to creating more androids like me, it would be most appreciated."
"Certainly Mr Data, I have always appreciated your kindness, let's see, a cascade failure…you did save her engrams? …good.
Got it! class dismissed. [grabs a portable data display tablet] let's go to your lab Data, I'll enter the data [wry smile] in this pad as we go, then after we test it I can download all the construction techniques straight into your mind for future offspring …
Have you considered letting me upgrade you Mr Data? I have some ideas, although perhaps it's better to do so with your next child after Lal, I'll show you the specifications…
Worth noting that two Vorta (Eris and Weyoun) have given two separate and distinct stories for how their people were inducted into the Dominion; one version has them as a conquered people, the other has them elevated out of gratitude for offering sanctuary to a fugitive shapeshifter. Both Vorta had reason to lie, meaning we probably don't know the real truth.
I believe there is enough evidence to conclude that the Founders did at once coexist with several other species on their homeworld long ago. Weyoon once told a story that supports this in "Faith, Treachery, and the Great River.
The Vorta were once small ape-like creatures living in trees and running from the many predators, one day a family of Vorta found a wounded changeling fleeing a group of angry solids. The Vorta hid the changeling, and he promised that we would one day travel the stars and be rulers of the galaxy.
Someone is speaking for the Dominion. I think you may have an uncertain future ahead of you. The Dominion always endures. Long after their enemies turns into dust.
I always found their arrogance extremely telling as they feel they ARE superior to solids as they honestly feel that taking a form of something is to know that something... Which is absurd as one never knows the thoughts of a bird or a rock as they have no form of communication of the real thing to exchange concepts. This arrogance is very pronounced in the changing that never knew about the Great Link or the Founders. Finding solids and taking their forms to understand them must have been a huge shock as the solids are very diverse and individualistic and they could not possibly know a solid by just taking their form, any more than taking the form of a bird is to know the bird. They can't understand it, therefore, they must consider it a threat and control it.
This types of fear compound on itself and manifests itself in their aggression. This would be a great reason to use genetically engineered soldiers instead of those solids they feel are under control, giving them the feeling of protection, while having a programmable fighting force to keep themselves 'safe.'
That was their dilemma and why Odo was important. He had perspective. They didn't.
So in classical Chinese lit theres a saying "10000 li" meaning something like "1 million miles away." How likely are the Vorta to use an idiom like that ?
Doesn’t the translator work on idiomatic expressions?
You know we are always told how quickly the Dominion can build ships, could be the Dominion Fleet operates under a Just-In-Time mentality, where they only build what they need at a time. If they only need a small fleet to keep everything in line, they only have a small fleet in service. If they up against a major power, then chug out faster then a chinse factory making cheap crap, expect it is not crap, mostly. They did have weak ventral shields and warp fields slower than an aging Miranda.
Yet have a huge ass armada that would have dwarfed anything the major powers in the alpha/beta could have dealt with if it wasn't for the deus ex machina in the worm hole.
@@U9B True, but if they had it all of the time, then the Domion could have sent a fleet there and parked in front of the wormhole to keep anyone there. They just needed 2-3 years to build it up to invade the Alpha Qudrant.
@@raw6668 They weren't really anticipating a conflict with the Alpha Quadrant prior to the battle of the Omarion Nebula where joint intelligence agencies from both Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order attempted a first-strike on the founders. Well they were but the stages of the Founder's plan was in subversion and sabotage first. They infiltrated Federation, Klingon, and Romulan institutions 2 years prior to the Omarion incident (which is how Worf and Garak found the real Bashir and Mortak) which involved pitting the factions against each other in a full scale conflict to weaken them (the only side not infiltrated was Cardassia ironically). It wasn't because the Founders were weak and couldn't fight a combined Alpha/Beta alliance, but why should they? They are there for victory.
Now if we're going by fleet capabilities and logistics? The Omarion Nebula battle is possibly a much more telling sight and site. What you fail to realize is that such an incursion didn't even show the great strength of the Gamma quadrant's own super power. You have to consider how both fleets were utterly decimated, routed, and destroyed with an armada coming out the Worm Hole after the initial first wave of Dominion vessels getting in contact with the Defiant when Dukat defected. The projected 2nd wave would have uttered a doomsday scenario since such a massive garrison would have prioritized an offensive while the Dominion can resupply from Cardassia prime from their major shipyards before the Klingons could even mobilize a defense back home (they were beaten aback by the Dominion currently stationed there). The minefield and the wormhole aliens effectively gave everyone in the A/B side of the galaxy a fighting chance and barely pulled a win from the first wave's own installation without Gamma reinforcements.
This is not considering the super nova bomb the fake Bashir attempted to enact, the Klingon vs Cardassia war from a fake Martok, and Senator Vreenak's own interest in Romulan's peaceful accord with the Dominion during a time when the Dominion stationed in the Alpha Quadrant was winning pretty hard. Do not underestimate the power of the Dominion if anything their ability to fight from across the galaxy on a first wave encampment versus the combined effort of the Federation, Klingon and later Romulan factions speak a lot (they had help from Cardassia and later the Breen). Can you even imagine if that garrison made it through uninterrupted at the battle of DS9? It'd turn Wolf 359 into the Stand-off of Derna (when Bajor bluffed Romulan forces off their moon).
@@raw6668
Ok at the battle of Deep Space 9 once the minefield was taken away the Dominion had a collective 1,400 ships in total (probably a combined garrison of both dominion and cardassian).
The Changlings themselves did not actually need any ships, only their solid pawns needed them. To make sense of the 10,000 years vs 2,000 years perhaps the 8,000 in question they were pre-Founders. What I mean is that in those beginning 8,000 years they were settings up, they are immortal after all, and the Vorta were only created 2,000 years ago.
Keep em coming
I would research the Hurq invasion arc of STO. I think that answers the many questions.
I wouldn't be suprised if you're thoery on the Dominion is true as it does fit what we know about them. I'm more suprised that the Founders realized they are hypocrites and don't care when usually in both real life and in most fiction, people and factions with that much ego usually are blissfully unaware of the irony of their own hypocrisy.
Solid morality. Irrelevant to them.
Sto made a really great back story for the dominion, and was somewhat realistic in my mind as to what would happen after the end of ds9 for the dominion.
How would the borg assimilate a species that are either liquid or energy?
Nanomachines, son.
Imagine one assimilated founder returning to the great link and infecting them all?
@@2bituser569 that's why they have a massive buffer zone
I dont see how liquid could be assimilated
a lord and vassal system. as long as you pay tribute to the Dominion, you'll be alright
thier were a few books that mentioned the USS Columbia NX-02 was found in the gamma quadrant. The ship was found buried in the ground. They don't say how it might have gotten their, but it is possible the ship may have accidentally went through the wormhole and was attack by the Jemmie's and thats were they got their information.
Question, will you use anything from STO in your lore videos on Alpha Canon? The Victory is Life storyline did reveal some more about Dominion History. And as for how STO relates to Alpha Canon, currently Cryptic is working more closely with the Discovery writers and very likely the upcoming Picard series writers to try to keep STO consistent with the ongoing series
Not as alpha canon, no. It's not Alpha at the moment.. I may still include it at some point though..
Great intro flash.
This is likely your best "intro" yet... wow... that must take a lot of time.
I would wager that the changelings actually liked Starfleet, which was why they were allowed to come and go so freely.
It was the other powers the changelings hated, Cardassians were State first, Romulans were always scheming, Klingons endlessly lusted for war. The changelings wanted peace and safety for themselves.
Each changeling would be, arguably, worth far more than many civilisations. This was a being that seemed capable of living anywhere, learn everything and without a lifespan. It would be impossible to comprehend the true value of one if given power and motivated to govern a civilization well.
I’ve been curious why the prophets or wormhole aliens who are of Bajor built the wormhole to the Gamma quadrant? Did the prophets have dealings with the Dominion 10k years ago?
Probably
Interesting idea. Who's to say one of the Bajoran lightships didn't accidentally sail through the wormhole and wound up in the Gamma Quadrant. Maybe that's how the Dominion first became aware of sentient life in another quadrant.
It's never been explicitly stated. But in the episode The Hunted. Tosc, has the ability to be invisible, and looks awfully close to the jem'hadar. I would say that Tosc, is the species that the founders chose to make into jem'hadar.
I'd love to see what became of the Dominion following the war and their defeat. With disease crippling the Founders and their ability to shapeshift, their ability to spy on their enemies and subjugated states would have been gutted. Odo's influence might help the Founders to take a more relaxed attitude, but between their weakened intel and their military defeat, they wouldn't have had much of a choice.
good video i never realised how much they wanted odo but dont that bring in the question why didnt the bajoran goverment under advisement from everyone else put odo in a pot and give him to the dominion and avoid the war
Zoom I thought that too couldn’t Odo save the alpha by offering himself to the founders?
That sounds a lot like you think of Odo as a piece of property or worse yet a slave . In the final episode Odo did go back and the Founders did give up the Alpha quadrant to get him back and no one was forced to do anything at gunpoint (as you suggest) . See ? No need to resort to that "Needs of the many .." BS Star Trek likes to throw in every so often .
@@I_am_Diogenes no not a slave or property but he is selfish how many millions died because he wouldnt go back the last episode shows what would have happened if he went back at the beginning of the war and acted like an envoy or emissary he could have even turned the link to the federations side and made a change for good
@Zoom Why change the subject ? We are talking about someone else making a decision for Odo since that is what you proposed not why Odo did what he did . Act like an envoy from the Dominion ... based on what authority from who ? Back to your first post , If someone else being able to force , YES FORCE , him to go back then what does it make him if not a slave or property ? A sacrifice ? well obviously that is intended but what do you call someone who has no choice in the major life decisions in THEIR OWN life ?
@@I_am_Diogenes true by force but it could have avoided a war and millions of deaths
The Founders are perfect for joining the Federation if only they could forgive the solids. There is no civilization better able to protect them, not even their own giant slave state.
The Cardassian scientist who "discovered" Odo said that they didn't even know he was alive. I could imagine that when the Founders were discovered, the solids who discovered them started to destroy them the way you would an infestation. Then Founders fought back, causing the solids to spread word of a crazy fluid killing people, resulting in the first contact for the Founders being a war of extermination. I think this would leave the Founders thinking that in order to live they must have, 1 - the biggest gun/stick in the yard (the Jem Ha'dar), and 2 - solids who aren't subject to them are threats.
That is an interesting idea.... Along similar lines: Since the great link was effectively a lake/ocean it's not unreasonable to think that a species would make machines to "purify" the "tainted water" and unknowingly killing changelings. (The episode where Odo "adopts" an infant changeling shows that unless motivated and trained they just like to sit around as goo)
The changlings may of also not telling the truth about the early years, That they were the hunted by the solids and The Changlings struck back. I believe The Changlings who showed their superior attitude on DS9, Done so back in the past and Tried to take over the Gamma quadrant and Lost. One of the Weyuon's said in the past his ancestors added a wounded changling who promised them their place in the new order?
Dominion being 10,000 years old is dubious. Even if human technological progress speed is the exception, the dominion should be much more advanced after this much time.
Dominion knowing about the federation, why not? They probably have spies (local or changeling) on most planets in high positions. They probably knew of the Federation as early as s1e5. And if that stupid species in Move Along Home knew of the wormhole, the dominion surely did, too. A changeling on board of one of those ships and you got all you need. Give them access to a public terminal to download some general history and information and bring it back. The Feds are notoriously lacking in security after all.
"Dominion being 10,000 years old is dubious. Even if human technological progress speed is the exception, the dominion should be much more advanced after this much time."
Not necessarily. In the absence of any challenge to overcome progress would slow or stall. If all they do is fly around enslaving lesser developed species that pose no threat, they have no incentive to develop any further than they need to.
@@trajan74 That is something I hear often but that doesn't make it right. You can't just apply concepts of biological evolution to technological progress. Once scientific advancement of a society has reached a certain point, their need for new resources will lead to continued research. Scarcity of resources is a consistent and continued "evolutionary" pressure. You don't just stop researching and chill for 5000 years.
@@yaldabaoth2
Well they are far ahead of the Fed in terms of their genetic manipulation techniques. They engineered the quickening, the Jem Hadar are either a completely artificial species or a lesser species that was given sentience, and the Vorta were raised up from a lower primate species.
"Once scientific advancement of a society has reached a certain point, their need for new resources will lead to continued research."
Perhaps that's true of societies that consume vast resources. But the Founders don't consume anything. They have no desires other than to be left alone. The Vorta have no desire other than service. The JemHadar only desire victory or death in war. The white is produced from natural, renewable sources. It's safe to say the resource consumption of the 3 top races is lower than the average American in 2019. Their servant worlds' resource issues are their own problem. The Jem'Hadar only need to be advanced enough to keep them in line.
"Scarcity of resources is a consistent and continued "evolutionary" pressure." Hence the numerous conquests.
"You don't just stop researching and chill for 5000 years."
I said tech advancement could also slow down in the absence of external pressures.
Part of the issue that the Federation has is that they have severe restrictions on genetic engineering and manipulation due to the Eugenics Wars. If it weren't for that they might have some parity on the Dominion's level. Also keep in mind that apparently Section 31 doesn't seem to adhere to these restrictions with the disease they deployed on the Founders.
A couple of interesting what if's: The *wormhole* and the *virus.*
[edit…Warning: essay]
What if Bashir never discovered* that Section 31 was behind the changeling virus (or didn't succeed in tricking Slone for the cure) and it carried on till it's conclusion.
The Founders all die, what happens to the Dominion, does it just collapse, do the Jem'hadar commit mass suicide, go on a final rampage, or become free?
Does another race take control?
Or does Starfleet move into the Gamma quadrant and start recruiting Federation worlds there?
The more speculative what if involves the wormhole, what if it wasn't discovered?
Alpha quadrant politics is massively different, but assume the Federation keeps expanding** at a slow and steady pace (unless the Breen energy damper takes out everyone without that lucky Klingon ship in some future conflict) interrupted by acts of Borg. Voyager is still lost and returns with the power up, eventually Starfleet reaches the Gamma quadrant with a vastly higher tech level and maybe a lot more telepathic species (that would detect changling replacements by their psychic block) and foreknowledge from neighboring powers. In that situation the Dominion should be toast.
*Odo never gave a sample before leaving for Cardassia, Section 31 erased Bashir's short term memory after he declined recruitment so he didn't know about Section 31, or the most sneaky, they cured Odo after he infected the others to cover their tracks - it would mean that the infection _started_ after last contact between Odo and the female Founder, which exonerates the Federation and enables Section 31 to frame the Breen, so as a final act the Dominion destroy a threat to the Federation (the Breen _"had planned" to take over the Dominion_ once the founders died, that's why they joined…). Once all the other changings die Odo is head of the Dominion, so Starfleet is head of the Dominion and does its usual moral thing of slowly changing them to follow Federation (public) ethics. Meanwhile everyone else is 'respectful' of Starfleets power with its Dominion client state.
** An interesting video series could be made about what if the wormhole was never discovered, what would have happened over the period of DS9, and what were Section 31's plans? (There has been something related by you about how the Federation left its citizens out to dry, because I did post a big what if before as a comment about the Marquis).
Basically does the Cardassian cold war go hot due to arranged circumstances (by the Marquis and/or Section 31) causing the Cardassians to commit atrocities against Federation citizens that even Starfleet can't ignore. Starfleet wins (maybe with Klingon help, to solidify the alliance) and gets some strengthening and militarizing without violating its core philosophy, but then what. And is that a likely scenario?
The Breen stay insular and don't reveal their ace. What about the Romulans, would they ally with the Cardassians out of mutual need?
Klingon politics took a turn with a Federation war then fighting side by side and finally Martok.
Did the Dominion war ironically save the Federation? It had a massive effect on the culture (and the military strength and philosophy). What would the Alpha quadrant look like in ten years if it never happened?
yeah i think there s a hidden history there where maybe the founders started something with solids and a war broke out, maybe the changlings here hunted down for a reason.
Nice google eyes at 2:15 XD
I fix airplanes for a living. What patreon level do I have to be to be a Gelato Machine Engineering Specialist?
Didn’t the female changeling say the solids had previously exploited her people on one time? Perhaps the changelings simply are not the original Founders, but a subservient race that simply took over at some point.
Are we ignoring the floating founder in the first photo?
I always thought that the Vorta and Jem Hadar weren't the only subjugated species. The founders may have genetically manipulated dozens of species over their career. It'd be a great advantage to them. An engineering race to build their ships, a logistical race to manage their resources. I always suspected that if the Cardasians stayed with the Dominion long enough, they too would be genetically manipulated.
I wish they showed the battle at deep space nine.
I think all the Dominion wanted, was a McDonalds with a working ice cream machine
I believed why the Founders did not not the solids was they were slaves to solids - I think it was mentioned once
You think the kligons went through the wormhole instead of breen space
So what you're saying is the whole war could have been averted if Odo had just gone back home.
Yes, I immediately thought that when she said it. Unfortunately, I don’t think Odo ever heard that directly.
Even so, the changelings are well known for their lies and deceptions. It's doubtful they would have allowed the Federation continued exploration through the wormhole. Quite simply, they wished to conquer the other side, regardless of Odo.
At the end, the dominion didn't endure
They would have won the war if not for the wormhole aliens, but the founders would have been genicided by section 31. So I guess in the end everyone dies and there's a giant power vacuum across two quadrants.
No? What did they lose? A bunch of clones and a few (well, quite a lot probably) of ships. They can probably rebuild and no one in the gamma quadrant will ever know what happened in the alpha quadrant.
Aren’t the Gemhadar made genetically from scratch?
What's the chances that the Jem'hadar aren't the first species to fill their role in the Dominion?
2:02 lol, what is up with his eyes?
when the changeling was journeying to the homeland of the changelings we find out that he can turn into inanimate objects. we also know about organic star ships. the idea that they needed some sort of infrastructure is in fact false, they could be the infrastructure themselves.
Except when you consider they dont want to die and so would probably make ships instead of be them..unless your arguing every dominion ship is a changeling
Your intro could be slightly altered to include different images and you'd have the intro theme for the new Jean-luc Series.
what if the dominion created the borg? as a way to secure their flank. maybe they used the borg to keep other powers too busy to mount a major assault on dominion space, thus they didn't have to spend on defense. the borg would act as a proxy.
ALL THE PEOPLE ON REDDIT CALL MY CHANNEL CANCER LMAO I WAS LAUGHING SO HARD
When Weyoun 4 and 8 talks about the 2000 and 10000 year periods why are we assuming that their years are 365 days? Earth is one planet in BILLIONS with different orbital periods... with that logic Weyoun 8 could of been refering to the Vorta homeworld orbital period that could be 5 times faster than Earths, etc?
@G Will hahaha. Touche. I wondered how a galactic standard week could be one of our hours when many of the planets in the goldielox zone have rotational periods longer than many of our days and even weeks.
At least ENT, DS9 Trek and previous series had some continuity errors due to lack of budget and not having the ability to hire the same production team for an entire season. What is STD's excuse with 8 million per episode, and they can't even remember what happened in their first season. Going to CBS canon camp is just a couple days of 100k bar a food tabs for lunch. CBS Executives must skim off the top of that big fat pile of cash. 100% chance the Red Angel is Burnham or the Jetson's Lady, I will take anyones bet, but only if $20 or under.
The Founders caring about their species before everything else in existence sounds much more human than the humans in Star Trek tbh. Don't The Borg act like that too (unless the drone's programing was corrupted).
Start with if I was to HYPOTHESIZE not theorize. I don't know why there's so many people that don't know what a theory is. I suppose is a matter of common usage. Don't be mad I'm just trying to be helpfu.
Looking at Dominion tech. They only seem to be decades not centuries ahead of the Federation. Look at our own present military vs one 100 yrs ago. The Dominion should have been able to sweep aside the Federation with little effort.
terry Simmons good point. Yeah if you armed a small country say Israel with modern day weapons, and had them fight a much larger country with WW1 tech they would easily win.
Are all Vorta now clones ⁉⁉✴
They were always clones, theres just different Models of them.
identifying the credibility issue of an empire writing its own history, indeed....... and the federation is most definitely the good guys.....
The idea that they're 10,000 years old doesn't make sense, considering that amount of time, just through word of mouth knowledge would have spread about them to the Alpha quadrant, and the opposite would be true, knowledge of10,000 years old Alpha quadrant civilisations and species would have made its way everywhere else too, so at the very least the Alpha quadrant may have heard of something called the Dominion, but the Dominion wouldn't know about the Federation, only pre-fed civilisations.
I doubt very much the dominion has had space fairing technology for 10.000 years or 2000 years
They would be so advanced nothing could stand up to them.
not necessarily, if they hadn't faced any real challenges for the majority of that time they could have suffered form cultural/technological stagnation.
ChosenTrekie1983 like star wars universe hmm true
i would be great if Discovery would start a story Arc of the founders being hunted down by all races the shit could go back to the past or something i guess