What Is The Most Important Element Of An RPG?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
- Ever since reading this recruitment message on Monolith's website: nintendoeveryt...
I've been thinking about what the vital element of an RPG really is. In this video, I give my thoughts on that but would love to hear what you have to think as well!
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What do you think the vital element of an RPG is? I feel pretty confident that it's the character progression system, but I'd love to hear what you guys think!
Pacing! Before Kingdom Hearts 3 I would have said gameplay or replay value but KH3's pacing is so bad I only played it once. The gameplay is good, music is great, and it has replay value but pacing is shit. Not just story either but gameplay too. Watch so let's plays; everyone is using the Pirates kingblade because it's a clear winner.
One of the most vital elements of an RPG is atmosphere.
There is a rather abysmal rpg from way back in the SNES era called Tecmo's Secret of the Stars. Everything was bad about it, except for the music and the charming atmosphere of it, and despite it's poor reputation, I loved it.
If that rpg was at least decent, I would have absolutely adored it.
I think this was more of a technical point that without a playpen you can have no play
I said this elsewhere, but I think the crucial element is meaningful choices over time.
I had posted this on the Adventure's of Chris video comments because you asked a very similar question in that video, so i will copy/paste my reply from there... For me the most important thing for an RPG is to have strong world-building and character development to generate an immersive feel that lets the player feel like they are a part of the world, because the goal of an RPG is to play a role within the world.
I think that the two of you are approaching "what makes an RPG" from two different perspectives which makes total sense. The player will see the defining factor as it relates to the playing experience, whereas the creator of an RPG would see it from the perspective of a Dungeon Master, of sorts, from the production-side perspective. And I think that makes complete sense. And I think that the two ideas meld pretty well. You like the idea of character progression and role-playing, and he's coming from the idea of creating the world in which you can enable those experiences. You're talking about what you get out of an RPG, and he's talking about what gets put into a good RPG, if that makes sense. A Super interesting discussion topic for sure!
hi Derek. Amazing response.
1000% right here.
My immediate thought was how if I'm a player I'm looking for a great story, but as a DM/RPG creator I need to tell a good story and to do that you need to set up some boundaries for where/when that narrative happens ie. a map.
So it's not the dungeon that's important but what's in the dungeon? In other words story, character, music, etc. I mean look at Xenoblade 2 where characters got thrown off the balcony for good looking environment. For me a good rpg should be a balance of everything else.
And RPG doesn't really have a unified meaning, right?
I think you're right from a table-top role-playing sense, but not in a video game sense. In a table-top setting, you, the player can impart your own RP into the game, and the DM can pick up on that and help facilitate. The DM can focus a lot more on dungeons and start somewhat railroading (in a way that feels natural), otherwise if they go further a bunch of prep work can be for nothing. A player and DM can then communicate, fine-tuning the overall campaign experience to help suite everyone. For a video game, that entire thing is thrown out the window, as it's just the DM, and their pre-made sequence of events.
Totally agree. Tetsuya-san's statement for why the map is important is for it's effect on 'creation' and specifically how it affects the workflow. He didn't for example say that "players remember the maps the most!" or some other attempt to make a sweeping statement on the nature of players themselves. I think it would be a disservice to us all to assume that Tetsuya-san's stance on player interactivity is at odds with our own.
I think the most important element of an RPG is to immerse the player in a world that allows them to assume the role of a character, be it an original one (Dark Souls, Skyrim, etc.) or predetermined one (FF VIII, Kingdom Hearts, etc.), to the point where the player can fall in love with the lore and world of the game.
Edit: After watching the video a second time, I also 100% want to clarify I agree progression might just be the most essential part of RPG’s. Like stated in the video, it’s hard to pinpoint one exact thing, because there are just so many things I think we as fans of them would deem “vital.”
Great video Mike.
I like that element, but Dark Souls and Skyrim are NOT RPG's. Dark Souls is an action game and Skyrim is an open world adventure game. Different genres. FF8 is a RPG, Kingdom Hearts is an action game.
@@hepwo91222 I agree, they could be considered action RPGs at best (which I wouldn't really consider to be actual RPGs). It reminds me of the people who used to call the Zelda games RPGs, I feel like the definition for the genre has been a little too loose in the eyes of a lot of gamers. Having RPG elements is much different than actually being an RPG, yet people will still say that Kingdom Hearts and the Witcher are RPGs for some reason.
@@hepwo91222 if you define a genre by gameplay alone you may be right but that is limitative. also that is a very classical definition.
@@goncaloferreira6429 I just hate the way RPG is used for EVERYTHING. If someone asks me about a fighter, beat-em-up, shump, platformer, Metroidvania, FPS, racer, puzzle game, they probably have a good ide of what I am talking about. But RPG now has been turned into anything with a story and leveling, it's out of control.
@@hepwo91222 that is true. having rpg element became a general thing that reflecs the general gamification of modern societies. i know people that never played classical rpgs but undertand the "rpg elements" publicity catchphrase.
in my youth i always defined rpg as a way to tell and experience a story. with the development of tecnhology everything changed
I agree with tetsuya takahashi. I think he means "map" in a broader sense. The process of mapping. Exploring the boundaries and pathways in order to elucidate a grander picture. That of course applies geographicaly but also on exploring/mapping character personality and their archs / cultures and their interactions / skill paths and their classes...
This is also in great part the appeal of metroid-vanias. I believe that's the reason why both genres share so many fans
But I don't think "role playing" and "endless possibilities" are essential (or even desirable) to the genre despite the name. That's probably why we feel the need to differentiate jrpg and games like fallout. Fallout is about roleplaying and is clearly different from the games you talk about in this channel.
I think (and may be wrong) that more players of the games you cover here (usually called jrpgs) share more appreciation towards metroid-vanias/archetypal fantasy/mythology/"orthodoxy" rather than table RPGs/improv/interpretation/"freedom"
Story is what made me love the RPG genre.
More specifically, character progression and how the character/characters evolve, grow, and interact with the world.
Which is why the original FFVII, Chrono Trigger, and Suikoden II are my three favorite JRPGs, if not favorite games, of all time.
If you love RPGs with amazing stories, then I implore you to play Xenoblade Chronicles (the original), it's a masterpiece. Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, Persona 3, and Persona 4 are also must play games with incredible stories.
i might as well have written your comment. the thing is that all types of games can now tell a good story. Back in the day rpg felt different because they were long form stories relying mostly on text compared the other genres. Nowadays wih the power of graphics the stories are told in completely different ways.
@@goncaloferreira6429 I agree with you in the idea that any genre can tell a good story, but I've noticed that it very rarely happens in any genre other than RPGs. For example, games like Assassin's Creed or any other big triple A game have hours worth of cutscenes, but the stories themselves are dull with boring characters. I can think of very few examples of non-RPGs with amazing plots, but I can think of numerous examples of RPGs that have them. If I'm playing, say, Octopath Traveller then I get really invested in the dialogue and the characters, but if I'm playing Spider-Man PS4 then I just want to skip all of the cutscenes because they're so uninteresting. I think the main thing is that RPGs tell stories like a book does, with a longform narrative and a lot of events. Other genres, however, tell them more like movies, and act as poor imitations of movies at that, so they just don't achieve what they set out to do.
@@Jordan3DS that "like books or like movies" is spot on. in a way in action games the story elemnents are often less impactfull or hard to remember. that can be due to bad wriiting but i think most often because peopel dont buy them to experience a story but to do cool stuff, and that is what they talk about after finishing the game( that or amazing graphics) .
Classical rpg were absolutely different experiences. i bought new FF games as new stories and worlds to experience. Being longer games the story and characters had time to grow on me and every gameplay section was not an interruption but an hiatus that rewarded me with more story.
@@goncaloferreira6429 Agreed, people enjoy doing things that *look* cool rather than doing things with story or gameplay depth.
I think another thing about it is that RPGs are slower paced in general, much like a book. When the gameplay is more methodical then it lets your mind be more relaxed and open to long sections of plot, whereas in an action game nobody wants to go from making 30 feet high explosions to watching people talk about nothing for 20 minutes. I think it also has to do with the fact that you can often skip text in RPGs, and you can't do that in cutscenes in other genres. I typically don't let the full voice lines play out in a game and I'll go to the next text box once I've finished reading the previous one, which lets the story flow at my own pace. In games with cinematic cutscenes, however, you just have to bunker down and watch or skip them, there's no other options.
I think I can see the talk of maps being the most important thing, from the perspective that the environments can greatly enhance all other factors of the game. Imagine FE: Three Houses without Garreg Mach for that school environment, that home environment, and all that happens around it. Imagine a game with great character progression, but lame environments that don't make the big fights seem climactic. What good is progression when you don't have that world to challenge and overcome? Much like the music, the maps and environments really help the player get invested in all other elements of the game.
And I get the impression that Takahashi meant something to this extent from the blurb. Everything else falls into place once you have quality environments for the game to take place in. Although maybe he really did just mean the adventure & challenge aspects of the game. Maybe he meant that map design was a big challenge in terms of making a game stand out from the crowd.
I think this is a nice point, but I also think that it is part of character progression. Characters progress by overcoming increasingly difficult and dire challenges. I completely agree with you that engaging environments are one tool to use in order to up the stakes faced by the characters, as are frightening enemies, high stakes interpersonal relationships (this is really what the Persona series uses primarily) or complex puzzles. Imagine, for instance, you walk into a nondescript, slightly rundown castle room -- just a basically a big stone box -- but there's a terrific, majestic, well-animated and powerful dragon there for you to slay. Ain't no one paying attention to that stone box of a room. A great example of this: I just started playing D&D for the first time and am totally immersed despite there being basically no visual map to speak of (though the descriptive environments of course matter a lot).
All of which is probably to say "I agree," but just want to raise the point that what you're talking about is actually more general than just maps.
But wouldn't that fall under world-building? How can you make a story without the world taken into consideration? Do the enemies on the map make sense to be there? Do they match with their habitat? World-building stuff. FromSoftware takes that very much into account. The maps he uses in Xenoblade games is a pivotal focus when it comes to visuals and exploration, but what if there is no story or game mechanics to hold it up? It turns into eye candy like Final Fantasy. I'm sure he might mean more interactivity with the map possibly, but the characters in that world, on that map, are going to bring you back. I think he just might have something very specific in mind when it comes to the games he makes. I can see the argument for a game like Breath of the Wild.
Love seeing all these videos about your thoughts on certain games and the genre in general. Great Job!
Get back to making vids Galactic god
@@Dragunity182 - lol, thanks but I believe my video making days are behind me.
Hi Mike, this is a response to the end of the video, specifically the point “What makes an RPG an RPG?” and “What is the most important element of an RPG?”
You said that a good character progression system is the most (but not only!) important element of an RPG because character progression is the defining feature of what makes an RPG what it is. But I actually think that description is not quite specific enough. I’d say an RPG’s defining feature is simply some kind of gameplay system that has a *primary purpose* of showing the player a representation of their character(s) growing and becoming stronger over time.
Giving the player options in how they influence their character(s) growth is ideal (because it is an interactive medium after all), but ultimately secondary to the simpler goal of representing the character’s growth to the player.
This is how FFIV and Chrono Trigger, in my opinion, still have good RPG gameplay mechanics. Because their progression system is very limited in terms of the player’s options, but it’s a stat-based RPG progression system that still shows the characters becoming stronger over time.
They are not the most interactive RPG progression systems, but they still nail the most important aspect of one.
This is an important distinction to make because there are many games with in-depth character progression systems that we don't consider RPGs at all.
For example, in NBA 2K20, I can create a basketball player who starts with low stats and gains experience points by completing specific tasks during the basketball games (3 pointers, layups, rebounding, etc.) I then have the freedom to spend my experience points on a variety of stats of my choosing like shooting, rebounding, etc.
This is technically a more in-depth and “RPG-like” character progression system than what is offered in RPG’s like Final Fantasy IV, Chrono Trigger, or Legend of Dragoon. Those gamessimply increase character stats by predetermined amounts after each Level up. The player doesn’t make any meaningful choices in how to customize Crono’s stats or abilities.
But the difference between NBA2K20's career mode and Chrono Trigger’s character progression systems is that they serve different purposes.
The reward for increasing the basketball player’s stats is so they become more efficient at scoring points, passing, rebounding, and so on. Improving at things that the player could already do from the beginning, just less effectively. The primary purpose of stats in a basketball game is simply to represent how efficient the character is at certain skills relative to other players. But the main point of the game still revolves around scoring points using basketball specific strategies. The stats increasing isn't the reward, they are just a means to an end.
However in games like Chrono Trigger, FFIV, or Pokemon, the stats are meant to portray the more abstract and simple idea of the character(s) becoming stronger over time. The stats serve as an abstraction to communicate that idea to the player. For example, enemies that once took 3 hits for Crono to kill now only take 1 hit. Or in FFVII, leveling up allows Cloud to come back and one shot the Midgar Zolom. The stats in this case are used to show the player that Cloud is now capable of overcoming a challenge that was previously impossible for him. Higher stats are the actual reward for your time investment into the characters. (Customizing those stats is fun and ideal, but not required to communicate the basic concept).
*Conclusion*: I would say that the defining feature of an RPG is not just having a well balanced or engaging character progression system, because many, many genres like Sports titles, Open-world Action games, and MOBA’s now have in-depth, customizable progression systems as a core feature of their gameplay. But RPGs differ from these other genres because they use stat growth for a different purpose; to communicate to the player how a character has grown stronger as a result of the long journey that you’ve experienced with them. And when done well the stat growth is partnered with the story at the right moments to integrate the sense of progression and story together.
Very very well said and way to link sports and rpgs together 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾!!
Underrated comment, well said.
I REALLY like Takahashi's opinion on what's vital to an RPG. Map/world design with exploration is what made me fall in love RPGs (specifically JRPGs outside of KH). That feeling of exploring a world and going on a journey where you travel to new places is exciting and never gets old to me. It's why I appreciate the Dragon Quest series so much and also Xenoblade.
For me the most important aspect is the story. I do like role-playing elements and choice vs consequence, but a strong overall narrative is paramount to my enjoyment. That's why I tend to favor JRPGs over Western RPGs. Most JRPGs have little actual role playing where you make meaningful decisions that affect the direction of the plot. This allows the developers to make more linear stories by not having to devote as much time and energy into branching paths and varying outcomes. They can focus their attention on creating one strong narrative as well as establishing deep and meaningful character interaction. Compare this with the Western style of RPGs featuring stronger role play elements like Fallout, The Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, or Divinity: Original Sin. In these games you make meaningful choices that affect the direction of the plot, but at the expense of the developers having to expend time energy, and other resources into creating all the different scenarios based on your actions. Like killing a certain character, choosing to side with a certain faction in a given quest, doing quests in a different order, choosing a player race that NPC view differently, all these choices must be taken into account and how they affect the game world. This means the developers have to expend time and resources to create scenarios that reflect those choices, resulting in an overall plot that isn't as focused as the typical JRPG. This is of course a generalization, and my opinion, but if you took the time to read this, I hope you will agree to some extent. If not why? How do you feel about this?
Man its content creators like this that really invigorate and open people's eyes to the realization to just how extrodinary this genre is. This is why the mainstream market is now more then ever more accepting of playing rpgs. Then how it was back when I was kid and the genre specifically was targeted towards a more nich audience. These content creators really help break down and analysis the many layers and multifaceted complexities of this amazing genre of gaming. Not just as an artistic form but also as one of the best literary mediums on the planet.
I've always broken it down into 3 choice spectrums:
1. The ability to choose who you play (create your own character, choosing party compositions, etc.).
2. The ability to choose how you play (different styles or classes, progression paths, strategies, etc.).
3. The ability for your choices to direct or change the story. That's not to say the story has to be amazing (although it helps), just that your choices matter.
Table-top RPGs obviously have all of these in spades. Many video game "RPGs" have one or two but not all three. Sometimes the main character is defined for you, sometimes your party members can't be changed or you have to use the same strategy over and over, sometimes the story is so linear your itty-bitty choices don't feel meaningful at all, and those all hurt the RP aspect of RPGs, although that doesn't mean they'll be bad games. The Witcher series is definitely missing #1, and #2 is somewhat limited between swordplay/signs/potions, but #3 is pretty strong in all three games, with entire chapters changing based on your choices. The Elder Scrolls series is pretty strong in #1 and #2, but #3 is lacking because the world barely reacts at all to your exploits. Given infinite time and money video game developers could maximize all 3, but they have to make cuts somewhere, and it's not likely they'll be able to compete fully against "all of our collective imaginations" like what D&D can put forth. The attempt is usually appreciated though.
Definitely agree, the progression system is the most appealing thing for me too. Everything from collecting weapons and armor in monster hunter, to building up your materia collection in ff7, to building your favorite pokemon team. All of it is just building up some sort of character or inventory of something and making an experience that's unique to you. I spent hundreds of hours (like, over two thousand) in monster hunter 4 ultimate, and that game barely has a story at all. The gameplay was so addicting that you sit down to start playing and before you realize it several hours had passed. Same thing with final fantasy. Getting all the ultimate weapons, unlocking all the abilities, finding all the secret bosses.. and there's a reason the most talked about thing in a pokemon game is how good the post game is. The story is extra, but it's the gameplay and character progression that really determines how much fun you're gonna have.
I think world-building, of which maps are one component, are the most important element, but story and characters (two separate but related elements) are a close second. For me, world-building is the game's ability to draw me in to a captivating, fantastical, fleshed-out world. This includes map design, but also atmosphere, interconnectivity, memorable NPCs, hidden secrets, and vantage points (like some of the secret areas from Xenoblade), among other things. These all help draw me into the game and make me feel as if I'm actually exploring a real, interesting world.
Like I said, story and characters are a close second. This was my biggest gripe with Breath of the Wild - while it has some of the best world design I've seen in any game, it lacks the captivating story and the memorable characters that I loved about Majora's Mask (my favorite game in the series). While the world-building draws you into the world initially, it is the story and its characters that keeps me invested in said world as my playtime increases. All in all, I'd place story a little above characters in terms of importance, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a good story without a strong cast of characters (on the contrary, I can think of several games that have a strong cast of characters but the story doesn't live up to my expectations).
For me, my final ranking is: world-building > story > gameplay mechanics > art direction & music > graphics (technical specifications).
See, I think of role-playing from a character or personality perspective. So I tend to not like RPGs because they throw a bunch of meaningless numbers at you. To me the games that are the most about role-playing are games like Life is Strange that give you a pre-made character to roleplay as and you kinda decide what version of them you want to play. This video helped me understand why I don't tend to like RPGs. What other people think of as roleplay has incredibly little in common with what I think of as roleplay and is everything I hate about role-playing games. I hate being faced with a character creator and being forced to pick between stats I don't understand. I hate being forced to pick upgrades from an ability tree. I want that stuff to be done for me so I can just focus on the interesting choices surrounding character and personality and interpersonal relationships or whatever
I'd absolutely agree with this. Progression systems is a major part of what makes an RPG what it is. Besides the story, characters and music that drew me to old school RPGs when I was a kid, it was the progression of learning new skills, unlocking new classes, and in the case of games like old SMT/Persona games, Koudelka and others - the ability to allocate attribute points however I wanted.
Spicy take: Progression is perhaps the least important part of an RPG. Participation in a 'role' requires and understanding of who you are and is actually at odds with change. Therefore, setting, story, player characteristics and stake, etc. are key elements toward preparing yourself to make decisions as that character. Think of it this way, how important is progression in your own life? Would your identity soften over time or would the stagnation of events make it easier to understand who you are? Progression and interactivity are actually more important to the 'game' part of RPG, IMO. Fascinating topic and great video!
I'll admit that I agree with you, the progression part is definitely what keeps me coming back. Take Persona 5, for example. It's addicting because, no matter what you're doing, you're always improving. Whether you decide to dungeon dive or hanging out with friends or studying, there's some sort of progression attached to it. whether it's your level, your social standing (and thus making the character you're with and the arcana associated with them increase in power), or your intellect so you can get extra goodies for being an excellent student.
Though I can understand why Monolith Soft can say map design is their most important part. I remember back during the release of Final Fantasy 13, one of the biggest criticisms it had was that it was just so linear. The maps had you go from Point A to Point B with only a small diversion here and there with a treasure at the end to shake things up. It was pretty boring. Past RPGs gave you the illusion of freedom in their map design. Even when presented with a world map, you really only could go to one of a handful of places. Like in FF7, once getting out of Midgar, you had Kalm and the Chocobo Ranch and that's it. You couldn't even go back to Midgar, since that was closed off. But even before that, Midgar itself was very linear. However, it didn't FEEL like it was linear. We had the slums that gave you a bit of exploration to do, with shacks here and there that doubled as some people's homes and shops. Or take FF10, another incredibly linear game that lacked the sprawling maps of the older titles. It didn't feel as linear because, well, it was a pilgrimage. We knew we were going to Zanarkand and had to visit certain stops along the way to participate in holy rites. Because we had a sense of purpose and knew why we were going to specific locations, it didn't feel as claustrophobic as FF13 did, with the group seemingly decided to go to the next place on a whim.
Really enjoyed this video! Hoping to see more like it.
Personally, I agree with Takahashi-san's sentiment - I specifically think the world and how characters interact with the world is the most important part of an RPG. You bring up a good point about having the ability to actually role play within a game, but without a richly developed world, effective role playing becomes more difficult to optimally do.
Games like Chrono Trigger and the Xenoblade Chronicles series come to mind as having excellently crafted worlds that can be uniquely interacted with by the characters (travelling to different eras in Chrono Trigger and climbing titans' bodies in Xenoblade). Through creating a rich world, role playing a character and getting immersed in the game's systems comes naturally. This applies to both video game and tabletop RPGs in my experience.
I'm so with you on game length. Shorter = better for me. Don't waste my time, I'd rather be fully engaged for 30 - 40 hours, than to feel like I'm slogging to the finish line of a 70 - 80 hours game. Unlike you, I'm not super into character building. I also look at that as tedious and time consuming. I like great characters, and a great story first and foremost. Chrono Trigger is a damn good template for what I like. So is Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky. I don't want to spend a lot of time working at figuring out how to play or optimize. I want to get absorbed in the world building and lost in it story and immersion-wise.
really fun question! usually my answer would be something like "no one element will always be the most important" but if i had to pick i'd say "Player Agency"
basically if an RPG lets the player have a significant measure of control over one or more of the following aspects:
-character/party progression (what class do i wanna pick? what character synergies can i try? ect)
-battle style (do i go all out offensive? do i get creative with status effects? ect)
-story path (what will i do now? where will i go next?)
even if one or two of those three aspects is completely linear, if the player feels like they can express their creativity to a meaningful degree in at least one of those areas, i think they will feel satisfied!
I agree with maps being the most important thing. I believe a great RPG needs the right amount of backtracking/ weaker enemies you used to fear. A map also has to make sense on the greater world map like Dragon Quest VIII where you get your flight and can land anywhere.
The only point of disagreement I have is that this is just as true of Adventure games or Metroidvanias. It's not a defining feature of RPGs.
To me it’s the ability to create a immersive piece of art that flows together from all its parts, the synergy
Story sets up the background
Characters create potential for growth (both for them and the player)
A battle system that stays consistent with the actions or way of acting for the characters(non-ludonarative dissonance)
And a world just as involved with the conflict of the story
But if I had to absolutely choose the most vital thing...for me it would be the characters, both their intrinsic and extrinsic growth
as long as the story is well written and you are immersed in it, even if you dont make a single choice for your character, you are still role playing and might bring something from that world to ours.
Good characters will always be the most important thing for me
Agreed
I don't have an answer to your question, but I just wanted to say that I love the format of this video. I remember you said you were considering doing these short, semi-stream of consciousness videos. If this is the initial effort, I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to more.
i agree. great conversation starters and it keep the passion alive.
Couldn't agree more. Progression is the heart of RPGS (for me); progression and growth in terms of gameplay, characters, writing, themes.
There's a great quote by Bono, where he says that the pop music tells you everything is alright, while rock music tells you it isn't...but it can be.
And I think that's relevant (in a way) here. I think of action/adventure games more as pop music. There's nothing wrong with pop music, pop music can be great and a lot of fun. But there is an immediacy with pop music, in that it engages with you in the moment; it's about entertaining you as you experience it.
RPGs on the other hand, are like rock music. Yes there's immediacy to it, but that's not the focus. The point is to engage with something more cerebral, something that lives almost outside of the experience. To face truths, and to invoke a revolution (either in a person themselves, their situation, or their outlook). Rock music is about change. And RPGs are about progression, which is all about change. Growth.
It's why games like Super Mario and Call of Duty, there really isn't as much debate and discussion years after as there is with RPGs because half the experience of an RPG is outside of it. When we think about it. When the emotions sink in. And of course, when the growth of a character invokes growth in us.
I suppose it gets very grey though, because the same is true of just writing and plot (a game like Metal Gear Solid, for example), while inversely true of games like Dragon Quest.
Hmm. Hell of a topic to pick. You've really got me thinking and I'm not sure I have a definitive answer so much as a feeling about it I'm struggling to describe haha
I agree with you that the most important element of an RPG is the role of the character(s) in the game. The how, why, when and who is doing what, how, why, when with who is what makes it important. I always love the function of main characters and side characters in the game/story especially when they are executed exquisitely. Presented to us the players with deep, long-lasting impact perhaps forever.
I think you nailed it on the head, for me it’s a combination and of course it always comes down to the genre. JRPGs are typically about story, WRPGs are about character progression, and SRPGs (which I still suck so hard at) are about progression and strategy. For me though RPGs have always been my favorite genre of game for one reason: immersion. I love talking to NPCs, I love reading Books in Skyrim and doing side quests to build my character into a figurative (and sometimes literal) god killer. An RPG typically presents a world or worlds to explore and lately escaping into the world for an hour a night has been a great escape for me.
I completely agree with your analysis on the role playing genre. If you look at the "Story Stack" created by Jason Vanderburg, the most important aspect of any game is the Fantasy. This is because it is the quintessential thing that people will come to your game for. Essentially, what the the fantasy that the game will present to the player? In RPGs (both western and japanese), I would argue that it is to take on the role of a character(s) and play the way that they desire to. Even in games with linear stories, the fantasy of a standard RPG is to allow the player to build the characters the way they want to. Everything else in the story stack (Actions, Economy, World, and Story) should work in tandem to help deliver that fantasy. I think the freedom of building your character(s) the way you want to is what separates the fantasy of an RPG over other genres.
On a mechanical level, I would agree with this. However, the most important things about a game of any genre to me personally are the aesthetics in a wide sense. That includes art style, narrative, score, world building and world realization. The games that are closest to my heart are not necessarily the most mechanically sound titles, but the ones that - through their art, narrative, score, and world - have left such a positive impression on me in terms of the sheer appreciation it evokes in me for the actual creation of the game. Those are the games that leave a footprint on my heart.
Great video! Cheers, Faze.
Takahashi's quote is quite fascinating; I finding myself agreeing with him after looking back at my favorite RPGs of all time (Dragon Quest 8, Xenoblade Chronicles 1, the Etrian Odyssey series). These games have very strong explorative elements, which is due in large part to their fantastic mapping and map design. I'm not saying Takahashi's absolutely right, but it's hard to deny that he has a point, at least from my perspective.
Its the combination of elements that make the RPG immersive for me. A cool map and a world with its own lore and history, awesome soundtrack, character progression.
The best ones manage to make me feel a sense of embodiment with my character, either my own or the one I play as, eg. Vaan in ff12 or geralt in TW3.
I can't quite decide but its one of those 3. The map and world, character progression or soundtrack.
Great video, spot on! I'm from Brazil and I'm a huge fan of RPGs in general, you produce some great content on that regard, kudos for the great work man!
I like how you went to the core of the concept of the genre to explain why you think that the character progression is the main feature of a RPG. Good job man!
A role playing game is a game which we project our self into a character in a game.
Naturally, everything about the character is important, their personality, their growth, the world they live in, how they interact with stuff, how they overcome their difficulties, etc. I think everything about it is important, although managing to get everything just right might be difficult. Having a strong point in one of these categories could make a game great, for example:
- FE Three Houses excels in the character growth,
- Xeno-games excels in the world building
- Radiant Historia in the special gimmick/gameplay
- Brave Fencer Musashi (an old PS1 Square game) in its exploration
- Final Fantasy usually excels in the characters journey (I personally think that FF excels in a lot of stuff, which makes them great, but I specifically mention the characters journey just for the sake of differentiating from the other examples)
As for Tetsuya Takahashi point, I do quite understand it though. Writing a story myself, I could say that if the world is establish, then it would be easier for the story to be created. It is much more easier to imagine what people are doing what and where and imagining of how it will interact with the main character to support their growth somehow. For example lets take Radiant Historia. If I do remember correctly, there are a gorilla based tribe that exits in the game and do have some vital story beat for the game. I mean, who would have taught to put something like this, if the lore of the world/world building is not already establish.
However, I personally dont think the same could be said otherwise (based on experience). If we already created the story, having all the plot points done, and then we try to create the world, some thing might not just fit and if it is forced to do so, it would felt like a deus ex machina. For example, lets take FF4 (Spoiler warning!). The plot would say that Golbez is controlled by a more powerful being, but the question is where to put this mastermind in the world? The developer then came out with an answer of him being a moon creature, but for some this felt a little out of place.
I would argue that there's no one essential part of an RPG, an imperfect genre term, that describes a fairly wide pool of games.
RPG is a spectrum term, where multiple facets accumulate into something being more or less "like an RPG" but where no single aspect would make it an RPG on its own.
In that sense, it's like cars.
We don't scratch our heads over what "one part" makes a car, a car.
You don't get a car by simply putting wheels on a plank, nor do you get a car by assembling an engine.
You have multiple non-car parts that at some point become a more car-like object than a non car-like object.
RPGs are the same.
You can put character progression systems in a game and it clearly still not being an RPG.
Devil May Cry 3 has a character progression system. Not a very complicated one, I grant, but it has one all the same.
Conversely, there are table top RPGs without character progression systems. They're still RPGs.
This goes to Takahashi's quote as well. There are RPGs out there that don't feature map navigation at all.
Many table top RPGs can be played with no maps and movement in space being treated as an entirely abstract story-telling by-thought of little consequence (being told "you are in a long hallway" is not a map in any way that reflects his use of the term for the type of games he makes).
Plenty of games have stories but are definitely not RPG-like, and plenty RPG-like games have almost no story to speak of.
Same is true for character writing.
Same is true for pretty much every aspect of any genre in any medium.
This is the problem of reduction as described in philosophy and applies to all acts of categorization of language as exercised by humans.
Categories are social constructs and their delineations are of convenience following broad amalgamatory distinctions.
They're not supposed to stand up to a measurement of a single factor, because that's not what's being measured in the first place - much like asking what single facet of a human makes it a human, or what single facet of a car makes it a car.
It's not linguistically or philosophically functional.
@@jackbatay4692
And my response is there is no such thing just as there is no part of a car than another part of a car that makes it more of a car. What's more, it's a totally pointless exercise, because the individual elements fluctuate in value pending the particular configurations.
Certain wheels are more car-like than others. Some people care more about wheels than steering-wheels and vice versa.
Pro-tip : Maybe read the post you're replying before replying.
Not only is your "objection" ignoring the fact that I've perfectly explained why I think this question is confused, you bring up points not even contained within my post.
I did, any where, set out to define what a video game is, or critique anyone's definition of video games. Why are you bringing this up?
@@jackbatay4692
That's an extremely silly question and shows how out of depth you are philosophically here.
For one, it depends on the wheels.
If you put recognizable car doors on your bed, or skateboard wheels on it, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who considers the latter more car-like.
Secondly, your question is not suited to the conversation because we're obviously talking of parts that are necessary but not sufficient to create the thing in question.
Wheels are necessary to build a car, but not sufficient. Doors on the other hand, are unnecessary.
They're categorically different.
Problem is, how many parts of an RPG can you find that are necessary and sufficient on their own to make an RPG?
You can't find a single one. They're all insufficient on their own, hence why we're having this conversation.
Secondly, it's readily apparent that each of these insufficient parts don't do the job universally nor consistenly. Hence again, why the question is pointless.
The only thing ill-informed here is your objection.
Not only is my perspective here in line with the consensus view on how categories function among both philosophers and linguists, as a professional game designer, I can tell you that literally no-one is having this conversation in board rooms.
What "one facet is most important to make an RPG" is entirely a non-issue for game designers.
Cheers,
@@jackbatay4692
I didn't say people aren't looking for things that make RPGs good.
I said no-one is looking for the one thing that supposedly makes an RPG an RPG, or the one most important thing that makes an RPG an RPG.
If you can't represent the argument with specificity, this conversation is pointless.
The fact of the matter is that you can find plenty of RPG since the inception of the genre that lack any one of the things you might posit.
Again, your unwillingness to address the specifics of my initial post this goes to show the lack of rigor with which you're approaching this problem as a whole.
There are RPGs without maps. There are RPGs without character progression systems.
There are RPGs without stories.
There are action games with maps.
There are action games with character progression systems. And, there are action games with stories.
No game designer I've ever met in my 10 years now working in the industry is concerned with this question because it simply doesn't matter.
@@jackbatay4692
That depends on what you mean by personal choice. But, it doesn't really do anything for the argument, because if personal choice is sufficient, or indeed the most important facet of making an RPG then telltales The Walking Dead would not only be an RPG, it could be considered a better RPG than most JRPGs.
My point is that when we get stuck trying to make any one part of an RPG the central facet of identifying the genre, we get absurdities like the above.
It just isn't useful. It's a lot more useful to see RPGs as being a result of multiple elements in tandem.
@@jackbatay4692
No prob man! Have a nice day!
First off, I just want to say I like the shake up in content!
I agree with you. One example of your point is FF7 vs FF8. 7, which is generally favored over 8, has the materia system. You can customize your characters any way you want. I can give Cloud cover and Cure and make him a paladin. Or Poison and Confuse and make him a dark knight. You know what Materia are. They're shown to you. They make sense. Compare that to 8, where the only real form of progression is this nebulous, unexplained magic stock/junction system. No explanations, no story reasons, no unique combinations. It's just there. I think this heavily influenced which game was more favorably looked back upon.
The moment I saw the title of this video I thought "progression". It came to my mind instantly, then found you saying the exact thing I feel. Totally agree with you!
If I think of cornerstones of an RPG, player progression/ management is truly up there. The degree of management and progression does leave lots to interpret but I believe there is a threshold of complexity that teeters more towards the traditional RPG elements.
World/ level design I view as just the backdrop. The setting essentially in story writing.
Everything else is peripheral to how the person experiences the game (music, art direction)
I wouldn’t consider battle mechanics the most important either since it could be viewed as the way the player expresses the character progression/ management.
Simply, role-playing requires players assuming or creating a role/ character and driving that role/ character through growing mechanics that manifest as battles, level increases, stat boosts, etc.
Just found this channel as we have loved the JRPG and the Western RPG all our lives (48 and 47 years) we simply had to sub :)
I would have to agree with character progression/development being the most important element to an RPG, story being 2nd, then gameplay imo. Seeing the characters develop, overcome conflicts, inner and external is the most fun, rewarding thing to me about these games. I grew up playing RPGs and Id consider alot of who I am as a person to be largely due thanks to RPGs. Growing as a person individually, even spiritually, learning about themselves, the world around them and life, along with your favorite characters, especially when youre young is a magical thing. I wonder what kind of a person Id be like if not for RPGs. I dont think there are many other works that you can say that about.
This really got me thinking about the difference between JRPGs and western RPGs or even D&D. While in JRPGs most often the character progression will be set by the developers because the story is completely pre-written, in wRPGs/D&D the character progression is made by the player. Of course in both cases the player will have a choice on how to raise their characters in terms of gameplay, just look at the job system from FF/Bravely Default, but in terms of story, character arcs and personality, it's really what makes the difference between the genres.
However, I find that JRPGs really struggle with tying the character story progression with the gameplay. Most JRPGs will have a deep character customization system that doesn't afect the story at all, nor is it affected by it. Even when some fact of the story affects the gameplay, like Cecil's conversion from a dark knight into a paladin, is something out of the player's choice.
Love your videos. I like the way you talk about games but in a more emotional or reflective way.
I kinda agree with this, as I too have been hooked to Oninaki's excellent Demon skill trees, but I feel that character progression is so tied to the combat and enemy/encounter design that these two elements just can't be ignored.
To say it clearly, the battle system (and enemies) are the incentive to dive into character progression. Without battles, there is no need to seek what the characters can potentially do; without enemies to challenge existing abilities, there is no point in looking for new ones.
My experience with Oninaki now reflects this very well. The progression system is one of my favorites, and the battle system is pretty decent. The enemy design though leaves a lot to be desired, and that actually breaks the flow of the game, as enemies don't really allow for the battle and progression systems to be fully experienced to their highest potential.
Character development is key, but there are different approaches to this that define a game. Some games provide you with mechanical development of characters that give you that feeling of investment, while other games provide players with the personal growth of a character, and others develop characters based on the journey they take (maps play a huge roll in this). Great RPGs take all of these vital points and bring it together beautifully. FF Tactics and the Suikoden I and II are great examples of them just hitting on all cylinders! It’s all character progression however imo.
I agree with you. The essence of an RPG is exactly that, the Roll playing experience. Being a novice, learning, becoming adept, an expert and finally mastering the abilities your characters have. I prefer "create your own character" for RPGs more than already set characteres like FF, but both carry the same essence, the role playing experience.
Amazing video dude, very thought provoking. For me what makes an rpg is probably the story and character’s, being able to forget some of lifes mundane struggles with a gripping story and compelling characters that I can relate to is what does it for me. Xenoblade and persona 4/5 are prob my favorites!
I have to agree with you as far as "role-playing" a character and the progression of said character. It's best when the story progression can also be cause for character growth for your playable or party characters. I love games that have systems that will tie into the narrative or other systems in the game.
I agree. If you feel a connection with the character. You’re going on the ride together. Ups, downs, or whatever.
if I think of all my favorite RPGs, they're amazing for different reasons
if I had to pick one factor that really elevates a good rpg into a great one...it tends to be music
you spend so much time listening to it, I listen to game soundtracks well after I'm done the game, etc.
none of my top rpgs have anything less than incredible soundtracks (Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 6, Baten Kaitos, Persona 5, Suikoden 2, Xenogears, Super Mario RPG), foundation has to be there (battle system, progression, story, characters, etc.) but music I think is the X factor
I'm inclined to agree that the actual role-playing is the most important aspect, but then again you mention how bare-bones it kinda is in Chrono Trigger [one of my favourite games ever] and I have to rethink a few things. But that's cool.
What's also cool is that your videos have been really cheering me up lately. Stay fetching awesome!
Setting should always come first. Gameplay, mechanics and story can then be built around the setting to build a cohesive and immersive experience.
Hi Mike, wanted to give my 2 cents.
Sometimes the merit of a RPG isn't in the story at all, but is in the gameplay elements. Building and customizing characters is important because that's where a lot of the fun of growth comes from, but I don't think it is right to equate that with "role-playing" for the character; some character are so uninteresting that you may end up upgrading their gear and skills for the enjoyment of the game mechanics, not out of any attachment to the character themselves. Here is a pretty big example of what I am thinking, though I imagine some would disagree with me; the protagonist of pretty much any Star Ocean game.
Star Ocean is a pretty fun RPG with a active battle system; and it is the enjoyment of that battle system that captured me and my group of friends. The characters are bland, often idiotic, and superficial at best; with only maybe 25% of them having anything interesting at all. When it comes to enhancing them, it isn't because I care about Fayt Leingod's personal growth to find his girlfriend awhile being marooned on a primitive planet; it's that the battle system is genuinely fun to engage in and I want to get better at making bigger numbers appear.
The opposite is true too, where I have slugged through terrible game play systems for the sake of a good story. That is where the true example of the appeal of character growth comes from. I'm talking about things like Suffering through the battle system of Chrono Cross because you are genuinely curious about Kid's story or how things actually relate to Chrono Trigger.
Now one area of RPGs that supports your views are Western RPGs like say The Elder Scrolls; where your character avatar can actually shape the progression of the world based on your active decision. In addition to personal choices you make regarding events like say, the ongoing of a civil war, you also develop and grow your character's abilities seeing them enhance as time goes on. That is 100% in line what you are talking about in your video. In JRPGs though, progression as a character and progression via game mechanics are largely divorced from each other outside of a few rare instances. Valkyrie Profile comes to mind with Lenneth's "Seal" value, and how you end up weakening it.
This phenomenon extends beyond RPGs too, another example is Death Stranding. Death Stranding has a very, let's say convoluted plot to it; with a crew of characters I don't think anybody really cares about. Why do people play the game then? Because the core gameplay loop feels so good to do. Ultimately you play as a delivery man who treks through dangerous undeveloped terrain to deliver packages to people; and as you progress you are able to build structures like bridges and roads to make delivery routes easier to do. Delivery more packages gets you more rewards and the means to further make the routes more efficient, especially when you have to deal with more cumbersome terrain in late game.
Point being, I don't think anybody really cares about the boring characters of Death Stranding, and I think they only Suffer through the eye-rolling 20 minute cutscenes in order to get more gameplay loop. I would not consider this role-playing anymore than having Crono, Lucca, and Marle fly halfway across the world, in a different time even, to get a slight better Katana.
I think what you're talking about relates to the Suikoden games very well. In those games, you can pretty much make each character what you want in terms of combat through the use of runes.
The are no bad opinions, only poor orators. I have enjoyed your thoughts and opinions on many of the games you've reviewed having enjoyed them myself. Our shared experiences are a blessing.
I agree with you, and this is true in all interactive media.
To captivate me there needs to be character progression, in action games like quake it's me the player that progresses.
In RPG in ideal cases both me the player progresses through mastery of the games mechanics and world, and the character by means of growing in its class and the progression of the story for example.
But good world building is essential to make a coherent game to actually role play within.
This is an awesome point! Great content and the perfect example! Love your content! Cheers!
For me personally, it’s story! If there’s a good story, I’m hooked no matter what.
That's works on other game genres as well but he talking about the most important element in RPG.
Mike my boi, I agree with you that the most defining aspect of an RPG is the Role-Playing aspect. However, if the RPG only focuses on the Role-Playing aspect but has weak story, characters, soundtrack, I simply don't have the will to keep playing. Games like Final Fantasy X-2 or Tokyo Mirage Sessions are good examples of that. Good RPG elements, but both of them lack a convincing and developed story. In the end I never finished these games.
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@@ResonantArc Thanks my boi. In that regard Fire Emblem is definitely one of the franchises that has this role-playing aspect as one of its strongest suits. Some people misunderstand and think Fire Emblem is just a strategy game, but it is not. Age of Empires is a good example of a strategy-only game. Fire Emblem is a strategy RPG. And the RPG element in Fire Emblem is very strong.
1) for games in general: The quality of the overall experience even if it relies on a single part to carry it
2) for RPGS: Exploration and interaction (world, character, systems, and area)
3) area impact and composition, art design, and story, music et cetera composition
4) the final step is how the adventure is designed to impact the player and how much the player is allowed to plan and prepare instead of just reacting in the moment
And then there is like the usual sub classes, which add other elements: action, adventure, strategy, nickel & dime, et cetera. And, they really should experiment with it more often like with the fighting game elements in Xenogears or the city builder stuff in dark cloud
Another great video! Interesting topic. DnD’s maps are just as important as the characters in my opinion. You can’t pick one really. Scenarios bring the characters to life, give them a world to live in. You can have role-playing without developing stats. I like that you say progression of the character, that seems to fit well instead of saying level up system. Role playing must be the most important element of an rpg. But if you compare video game to table top rpg’s, the dungeon master’s job is to build a great map for the characters to feel free to role play how they want. Of course a video game developer would say the map is the most important element in rpg’s, because that’s their main job: build a world that makes us want to role play in it. Settings and situations are arguably the first step to making characters feel real and free. Appreciate ya sharing this question. Can’t wait for your remakes of the final fantasy retrospectives. Respect to ya for doing the work to update those videos. Some of my favorite final fantasy lore videos on TH-cam. Thank you for your work
Hearing the quote, in this video in particular, made me relate the importance of an interesting map to the importance of audio quality. These qualities provide a baseline for the rest of the experience. Even when the focus of gameplay isn’t as inherently exploration centric as something like a platformer, the gameplay loop that feeds build forming can’t lose the player. In the end, I do agree that character progression and creating builds is the primary draw of an RPG, but I can also think of games in which the exploration in between has bored me away from finishing it.
This is why I loved Octopath Traveler so much, dispite it’s narrative flaws. I got completely sucked into that game’s job system like no RPG in recent memory.
You could make a part 2 expanding on this or more videos speaking on other vital points
This came at the best possible time for me as an aspiring Game Dev starting on my new RPG project
I think it is the most important (this is why I love tri ace games so much, they all excel in customizable and deep character progression) , but at the same time that doesn't mean there's a huge gap in importanxr between character progression and other elements.
To clarify, if I made a pie chart, it's be something like 25% character progression, 20% story, 20% characters, 5% graphics, 15% music, 15% world/maps. Even though it's the most important at 25%, it still makes up only 25% of what makes a good rpg..so I'd agree it's the most important when looking at it from a plurality, but that doesn't mean it's importance is dominant over the quality of an RPG. I think that's what you're saying and I hope the way I'm framing it makes sense even if the percentages I used aren't accurate, it's the relative value of each category that matters.
For me, I would say it's 50% RPG gameplay (AKA, not an action game with RPG mechanics tacked on), 20% story, 10% character progression, 10% music, 5% map, 5% graphics.
Great content man. You're well spoken with an inquisitive mind and the fact that you like to have open ended discussions before submitting your reviews really sets you apart from the rest. That said, I'm very surprised Vandal Hearts 1 and 2 isn't among your stuff; although admittedly inferior to FF Tactics, it should be right up your alley, gameplay and story-wise.
Man, I love the discussions you propose here. We often disagree, but I find your points nevertheless engaging and worth thinking over. Before you mentioned DnD, I was nodding to myself and thinking "well, character progression is a defining element of RPGs from a very DnD-esque perspective I guess..." and then you mentioned DnD! However, I must argue against that logic: while one of DnD's main draws initially - as a system - was the character progression, one of the main allures of the game was the idea of roleplay - that is, putting yourself in the shoes of a character and acting as such. In fact, I remember the first page or so of the AD&D book describing how a session goes, and it was a lot about the so called roleplay aspect of it.
It is true that initially the system only mentioned the roleplay aspect very briefly (the Alignment system was essentially the only chapter of the AD&D books that really went into it, I think), which to me was always a glaring contradiction. In fact, other Pen & Paper RPGs that came after D&D often saw this flaw and capitalized on it by offering super detailed settings, tips for roleplaying certain characters, deeper systems to assist players to get into their characters more easily, how Dungeon Masters can create interesting NPCs and push a narrative, etc.
Ultimately, both systems are RPGs, and they both share the idea of a story/setting and individual character shaping it through their actions - the so called immersion. Similarly, WRPGs and JRPGs also share this DNA, but use it in very different ways (one has already predetermined how the character will shape the story for the most part, while the other wants to let you have more control over it).
Therefore I could argue that the most defining aspect of an RPG is character progression in the sense of how they shape and are shaped by the story they are a part of, not necessarily the mechanics behind level up and such. In that sense, Chrono Trigger would tick that box very well. However, to me, it's really the aspect of immersion, having that character progression unfold through a very compelling story and setting. In that case, I can see maps being very important as they are a representation of the setting that will drive the immersion further or lesser depending on how well they are made, though I wouldn't say "THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL" - but close to.
Copy-pasta of my response to others who are bringing up similar points.
When it comes to video games--unlike with table-top gaming--playing the character doesn't really mean the same thing. Playing the character in games is generally reduced to an illusion of choice in dialogue trees or something like that. That can be an important element too, but where players really have a choice is in how they choose to customize and develop their character. That is an essential element to role-playing in D&D as well, but playing the character--as you say--is much more emphasized there.
I get the point from the perspective of the developer--a good map tells good stories, or makes stories easier to tell which enables a lot more. It is kind of out of left field for this channel but I'd encourage everyone to go check out the episode of the Ezra Klein Show podcast with Ursala K LeGuin (the scifi fantasy writer) who says that she starts all her writing in the genre by drawing maps of the world she wants to write about.
as an end consumer, I'd come down kinda where you do but with different shading--how does the character progress, yes, but how does that character growth--personally or professionally--change the lived world you are playing in? that is always what I'm looking for. I remember being most angry with FF XIII-2 of any game because you did all this stuff and 1) your actions didn't matter, Caius got what he wanted and 2) Serah dies anyway. That pissed me off so royally. And that is because the game devalued what I most value in a game. I still have replayed it a couple times because I love XIII and Lightning returns and the wholistic story is good, but at the time I was so, so angry.
What an interesting thought. I think a lot of ingredients make an great RPG. I lean towards the characters but I think setting is also important. FFX, there was a some limitation the world was super linear and really small. But the game explains why it was small because of The fear of Sin destroying it. Persona games have great settings. But the characters are more important. What’s the point of going on an adventure if you’re not surrounded by good people.
World building is paramount, but I agree about Role Progression. Sometimes the story will do this for you. Cecil of FFIV for example.
to me it has always been, a fun grind. be it due to the combat, or the sub systems. it needs to be fun to play.
I just wanted to chime in from a Level Designer's perspective (so I may have a bit of bias, of course). From a game creation aspect, I can understand Takahashi's point of view. If the World doesn't encourage the players to explore it, it's going to be difficult to convince players to advance the Story/Character Progression whatsoever. The World is usually one of the bits that takes the longest to solidify as well, so a lot of time/resources are needed to go into crafting it properly.
That's not to say that it's the thing that players will care about the most. That'll differ from player to player, of course. The World needs to be there for the players to experience the rest of the game's aspects; to heighten the feeling behind big setpiece moments in the story, to offer a way to gate player progression through areas, etc.
I'm not gonna lie, from my personal players' perspective as far as RPGs go the world is rarely the thing I remember the most. It's usually the music that sticks with me after the game is done; Heck, I'm usually listening to game music while working away on a World! That's me though.
I think you hit the nail on the head here.
I think you nailed it on the head.
You need to have role-playing in role-playing games.
I wouldn’t spend a billion hours, if I didn’t have the incentive to dive into the character or avatar I’m playing as and adjust their abilities or in some cases personalities to my liking.
Awesome video!
Strongly agree. I would also say that just having agency over character stat/ability growth isn’t enough to be an RPG either. That needs to be fused with an interactive storyline as well. There have to be things you can miss along the way, choices with at least SOME consequences
i agree. For me, it's the biggest reason I play RPGs. It's what makes me love RPGs more than other genres.
The nuts and bolts of an RPG is what appeals to me, the customization of your character, the gear and how the elements work together. Most RPGs have little Role Playing, more thought is put into stats and gear. Something else is important which is rarely touched upon, how the game looks and the lore of the world. This why Vagrant Story is my favourite RPG.
I'm new to the channel and I totally agree with you man. Rpgs have have to reflect their name. Also, I loved the podcast on FF8. I love that game!!
I play various types of rpgs for my own enjoyment reason.
Some for liner simple dumbed down experience just to get my brain that hit of dopamine.
Mostly I'm into RPGs with a Funnel like gameplay sort of like Dragon Quest 8. Funneled adventure action/rpg games are liner games but have sections of the world where its so big that it feels like a sandbox where you can spend a few hours in the first area and find one interesting point to another with some goodies here and there, but to progress the story you kinda have to go down the path the developers intended but it's easy to find your way to progress the story and not spend stupid hours or days not progressing the story like you can do in elder scrolls games which I do like. I do love big free roaming games but having a little guidance to the objective by visuals like a bridge, destroyed pathways, an interesting hallway that isn't boring, a tower, statue, seen off in the distance which has proper meaning of direction for the player.
Story, Characters and the many revelations that happen here and there are important. I do quit some rpgs if their plots or characters are super boring or uninspired or just don't click with me even if they do have an interesting style which I can recommend to others.
When it comes to gameplay I like the active action or just simple turn based actions. I recently started liking tactical rpgs in 2020 after completing Mutant Zero Road to Eden and the first two Shining Force games. But Fire emblem just doesn't click with me tho I do like it's high risk if you get unlucky or make a bad move but the characters in Fire Emblem are very dull to me.
It helps with your rpg if you don't have standard rpg damage or healing numbers in the thousands or millions. I know some of you guys love seeing high af numbers all the time but in those types of games it doesn't feel well earned which is why I love playing an rpg on the hardest mode possible or I try to handicap myself so I feel like my victories are more worth it even if I die alot cus of a bad experimental build or just RNGesus forsaken'd me.
Stopping power is the most important aspect of an RPG. Lock-on and range are useful, but it isn’t useful to hit enemy armor and not penetrate.
underrated comment
I personally think the story is the most important part. Sure, without character progression and a world the story wouldn't happen, but it's about the adventure you experience and grow to love. Without the ability to look back and remember the incredible moments along the way, to me, an RPG would be almost nothing. I love Takahashi's games (the Xeno series literally changed me as a person) and I have massive respect for him and everyone at Monolith, but I disagree that maps are the central focus of RPGs. Fantastic video, great to see discussion like this being had!
Subscribed to your channel. I am very entertained by content. It's awesome and on ny favorite genre! Thank you for your efforts. Going to play catchup and look forward to your future content.
I am totally with you on the subject of hours of gameplay being over emphasized in the marketing for games. Some of the most memorable experiences i’ve had in gaming were a usually very short and focused experiences. Something like Life Force for the NES is such an enjoyable and focused experience. For more recent examples The Outer Wilds or Obra Dinn. Cut to the heart of your concept and execute it to its fullest in my experience and you will be rewarded for it.
Its like going to a nice restaurant or going to a cheap all you can eat buffet. Both will feed you dinner, but one experience is gonna live on in your mind well past the point where it filled your belly.
I think a game should be just as long as it needs to be, but so many games nowadays (especially everything from Ubisoft) pads the hell out of progression in order to make the game seem longer than it really is, even though you're actually not doing anything. The Final Fantasy VII Remake is a good example of that, filling 3 hours of the original game with nothing but fluff in order to turn it into 30 hours, even though nothing of substance or interest happens in all of that added time.
It is hard to ignore and i agree with him that when i see that is happening i start to check out.
Character and unit growth partly why Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen is just so good.
i did think character progression and role playing are the key elements but i guess i tie the story and journey elements more than the actual customization and build development of characters. its why i think after all this time ive found myself playing more hours in pokemon and destiny 2 because i get to journey with my friends (both virtual and real) and feel my own progression as opposed to a character with a predetermined story. tho i think the bond you develop with another character is special in its own right
It's interesting that the guy behind Xenogears, having one of the best and most complicated stories in any RPG, doesn't think story is the vital point. The story is the main reason I love that game, that and the soundtrack.
I think after leaving Square, and having Xenosaga bomb, it kind of makes sense that he is disgruntled about previous projects that were story first in terms of how he approached them.
@@ResonantArc damn, that makes a lot of sense actually. I feel bad for Takahashi suddenly, Xenogears is on my list of favorite games of all time :(
@@ResonantArc That is a good point, I always forget that it fizzled commercially.
@@WillTaplin Xenogears sold something like 700K copies. That wasn’t a commercial failure by any means, though it wasn’t enough to greenlight a sequel/new project, which is why Takahashi left Square to create Monolith Soft. I think it’s during the 3 Xenosaga games that Takahashi became disgruntled and changed his approach to creating JRPGs, with Xenoblade radically different and being more committed to providing satisfying gameplay.
Well, the statement was took too literally, the map is also your world, your setting where you tell your story. But not only were you can build your story but also helps to define how a game may play. In a sense the map is part of your story. When you open the Lord of the Rings the first thing you see is a map, it’s the world, everything you’re about to read happens there.
Maybe that article was talking about open world RPGs i can kind out see map making being of more importance in games like that but i guess its a trade-off of exploration and character progression like where your character goes is a form of progression.
I agree with TT statement. I like games that lets you interact more with the world. For example, I like Golden Sun more than Octopath Traveler for the reason of the world building, exploration and dungeons. Both are great games though.
Great video thanks man
I don't know if your answer or Takahashis answer resonate with me, which makes RPGs so interesting and unique. There are so many things to analyze and love that everyone has their own vision of the most important element of RPGs
I used to think “Story” was the most important thing in an RPG, but recently I’ve come to question that.
I didn’t really think much of story in stuff like Action or Western RPGs. I put over 250 hours into Skyrim without bothering with the main storyline. I’ve found myself really enjoying the soulsborne games a lot (except for 2 cause I didn’t like that, and haven’t played demons souls yet), and they don’t have a whole ton of cutscenes. Sure there’s the lore in the item descriptions but I kinda ignored that.
But what about JRPGs? Story is why anybody plays those, right? Well, I used to think that. I was never big into turn based combat growing up, had few exceptions like a couple Pokémon games and the Mario & Luigi series, until like 5 years ago I played FFVII. Since it was nearly a traditional turn based RPG, I had a hard time getting into the combat, but I fell in love with everything else right away. And then eventually, I grew to love the combat too. And after that, I played FFX and several other FF titles and became a fan of the series.
Fast forward to earlier a couple years ago, I played RPGs outside the FF series; like Wild Arms, Dragon Quest, and one game that became a favorite almost immediately, Persona 5.
Getting into Persona 5 led me to replaying the Royal version, and past Persona games like 3 and 4. But it led me to a JRPG, that i loved just as much as those games, but very much unlike those games and every other JRPG I’ve played before, it *isn’t* story driven, and that was SMT Nocturne.
After getting hooked on that game, I began to really question that idea I had that JRPGs had to be story driven. That game has very little amount of cutscenes, yet I can say it is one of the best I’ve played in the genre so far. And it’s not like the story is bad or anything, it just happens to be the last thing you should be playing the game for. What it lacks in story, it makes up for with everything else. The combat is addicting, the world building is amazing, tons of bosses, very dark, isolating and oppressive atmosphere. And very strong on the “Role playing” elements being able to have 1000s of different party combinations with 100s of demons in your party, several ways to build your main character, and 6 different endings.
To me, a role playing game just has to excel in a lot of areas. Gameplay has to be good (for me), there’s several different elements that gameplay composes and many of them can make or break it. If it excels in everything, I believe I can enjoy it regardless if everything outside is wack. But then there’s a case of a really bad story full of annoying characters that can make me drop any fun ass game, a setting and/or theme I really do not enjoy breaking my immersion turning me away, etc. Stuff just simply has to be good or passable.
"Role playing" is just a straight out bad name for it's genre. I "role played" as Jin from Ghost of Tsushima much more than I've "role played" a character in any FF game I've played.
Yes, in most JRPGs, if only because they basically cut off player agency to reshape their environment and affect story events in a significant way. You mainly just choose the order of some events, when to trigger them, and watch numbers go up.
In ghost of tsushima you experienced a story of that character. In a great RPG you are that character and that's what I feel like role playing should be. As it was originally conceived just like in FF1 or in D&D.
@@NasBench In GoT I felt like I became Jin. I did the things I thought he would do and therefore role played as him.
You don't have to create the character yourself for you to role play as that character. And even if you create a character with an impressive backstory yourself, as long as you don't act as how you'd imagine that character would act, you aren't actually role playing that character.
@@kasp7674 I get you point yep. But to me there is a difference between role playing a character and living a character. For example when reading a novel. If the writing and pacing Is good then you'll feel like you were there and that's great. But in an RPG its more like you make the decisions you evolve the character...etc. that is my pov. And I respect yours as well.
You may want to play some Dungeons and Dragons before you settle into that opinion. I personally disagree. Final Fantasy didn't start the genre but rather Final Fantasy took ideas and the base from D + D and focused on particular aspects of D + D effectively creating their own style of RPG. People liked it and so their brand of RPG was successful and influenced other RPGs.
to me the most important thing is the story. I never played a rpg because of the gameplay, I play street fighter 2 or tetris because of the gameplay. if the rpg has good gameplay, good graphics, good music, that's a bonus.
edit: I agree on the padding part, chrono trigger wouldn't be the best game ever if it had 60 hours of "busy work", it's perfect as it is. and now that I mentioned chrono trigger, I never thought "it's the best game ever because of the role playing", I think the story, setting and characters make it the best. (graphics and music too, but that's seconday). take that same story, characters, music, graphics, and make it a side scrolling platformer, and it would still be the best game ever. it sounds like a paradox, but to me the "role playing" is not the most important part of a "role playing game".
In my opinion the most important element in an rpg..is what i call the rpg loop and progress..what i mean is the loop which you play as you progress the story...overworld exploration..town.. dungeon...battles...leveling..and then onwards to the next big zone..next town...next dungeon.. upcoming battles with more powerful enemies..the other part is progress.. progress in the overall storyline...in each character of your party..both as e personality in the storyline but also as the role he has in your party...for example a warrior getting more devastating attacks..a mage more powerful spells... progress on your loot and equipment..and progress on world exploration..new zones.. dungeons and towns..now if you put in a great story and lore and great battle and leveling mechanics... then you have an amazing RPG...so the most important is RPG loop and progress..love your work man... love jrpgs.. love from Greece
TL;DR: The question your asking depends on how you define an RPG and what you want out of any game you play. Personally I can enjoy a game that focuses on a few interesting, fun, and unique aspects, no matter what they are, so there is no one most important thing to me.
As an avid table top RPG player and GM as well as a huge fan of RPGs in the video/computer game world, I would have to say it depends more on the player and the game than you might expect. There are some console/computer RPGs that what makes it is the story and the character development. Others it's the richness of the world and the lore behind it. Still others keep me entertained with just the combat or exploration, or something similar. What makes a game fall into the genre and what makes it a great game are not the same thing in my mind. But I don't think I would call a game an RPG unless it contained a character progression system of some kind, even if it's not levels or skill points. A great example of this is the Legend of Zelda games. They don't have character progression in the same way as FF or xeno___/chrono____. Instead you slowly gain abilities, tactics, and items and learn more about your character and their story. But this to me is just as much of an RPG. And I've really enjoyed some super basic RPGs that had crap story and graphics because the combat and exploration was so much fun and the world was so enjoyable. This can also somewhat be defined by the difference between JRPGs and others, though, where it's not that one is better or worse, just very different and enjoyable for different reasons. And when we play table top RPGs, while my group enjoys leveling up and such, the combat, story, and character development are their biggest interests. I would argue that many of my favorite RPGs (across all formats) have more to do with how I can use or develop my character over how my character progresses or gains power.
So to me the most important element of an RPG is an engaging interface with a primary and secondary motivation. If I enjoy the way the game plays and it focuses on just a few things that make it great (be it the combat, story, world, art, or unique mechanic), then I think it will likely be a roaring success, and not just with me, but with the general public as well.
Sorry, I know that was a long way of saying all that, but having watched your different reviews, retrospectives, and more, I think you'll understand where I'm coming from and what I'm trying to say, even if I'm not saying it the best way.
Different publics need different catering, I myself agree with your point that the aspect of the PC building is a very important and vital to RPGs and you can say that i'm old school in that I hate the character that is the "jack of all trades" I do find that weaknesses or the need for different aproaches while resolving a task presented or obstacle are very important and that the typical "Sir Hero of the house of edgelord" character that can do it all and basically bend reality at the snap of their fingers is not fun for me to play as. Sure if the world surrounding said hero is fantastic and feels "alive" instead of just moving when the protagonists feels like it that adds a lot to said hero's journey, but at the end of all it's the story of said world through said hero's eyes what the player experiences.
I agree with Takahashi, but that's because I value exploration the most from RPGs (and most genres)
I would say the most vital element of an RPG is something like "character stats that level up over time" which is a more technical way of saying character progression, I suppose. I just can't imagine any RPG being an RPG without your character(s) having stats that level over time, and any game with stat leveling is immediately labelled to have "RPG mechanics," at least by popular conception.
the world, the characters you play at, the NPC, the interraction, the customization, the choice, the story.
That would be elements my dude not ELEMENT
That’s the real answer. We can’t boil down a great RPG to just one element, it has to be very effective at most of these elements at once.