One thing that I really hate about trying to train in BO6 Zombies is how the Zombies spawn. If you go just a little bit away from the horde, they will always despawn and spawn in front of you, including the boss Zombies, causing you to always be on the run, because you don't have any time to breathe due to how many are spawning directly in front of you. Also, using the traps suffer from the same issue. Only a few Zombies will end up going through the trap, the rest will despawn and spawn behind you as you watch the trap.
@@Vintagesonic1 which traps tho? dafgs dont have this issue cus they cover massive areas, and the tentacle traps dont really have this either cus theyre in decent training areas, so you can just slide under them to have them kill zombies
Yeah, I remember BO4 being heavily criticized for this, but BO6 is a comical escalation of this problem. It is a very cheap way of making the gameplay more frantic at the cost of actual depth. You should be able to navigate the maps outside of the most open spaces without the entire horde instantly respawning in front of you. You barely have to move before they start pouring out of the spawns on the other side of the room.
Yeah I totally get it but you have to remember that the speeds at which we move around now are far faster and more refined than the earlier zombies and, the fact that there's 50zds on map at a time if you killed one another would spawn somewhere near you factors in also. I do prefer the old ways of having a whole horde follow you around the map if needed but cod just wants you to be engaged all of the time.
@ There’s got to be a more refined solution. It is, at the very least, over-tuned. Maybe if there was a cap where only 25 of the 50 zombies are free to respawn very aggressively, they could maintain some of the strategic control of the old games without being too easy.
@@Doughnuts it’s an opinion I’ve had for ages, cause it allows people to still easily grind opal while keeping their spawns in check. But people want the total manglers gutted when this is a simpler solution that doesn’t make those grinding for camo’s groan in annoyance and head to directed as a result 🤣
I like this idea. Special and elite enemies are cool. It's not necessarily annoying to have a lot in general, what's annoying is how many you can see at once. I like having them mixed in, but it is a bit much when you are actively dealing with a bunch of them at once alongside the usual horde.
I disagree, weapon damage should be buffed, Because I actually tend to not apply Ammo mods on my weapons because Ammo Mod Kills cancel out Heashot Kills, I just wish weapons did more damage in those later rounds!
i think another thing that aids in it being brutal is how points are gained now back in a bo2 or some such youd see your points skyrocket for firing into a horde, and that felt GOOD now, on a high round, you dont get that anymore, so you dont get the gratification, it just feels like trying to break down a brick wall with your fist
god forbid you go down and have to buy back perks or you bleedout. I played until round 50 and with 25k points, you cant pack a punch to do enough dmg to buy perks, and you cant survive with perks long enough to pack a punch tier 3. If there was a point gun, you could train with an smg, spray, and buy back your stuff. Highrounds is either you survive and never go down, or youre fucked.
@@youtubehandle-u2l yeah that’s why I only ever run 4 or so perks, quick revive, jug, speed cola, and stamina up. Otherwise it’s a massive reinvestment
@@the-real-et I understand what your saying I actually get that gratification in bo6 when I kill zombies with killing a horde with double points and get only headshots it feels great and a few thousand points
Maybe make double tap cost 2 bullets therefore increasing damage at the cost of ammo depleting faster. Cause just giving free double damage isn’t reasonable.
I dont mind super sprinters and more zombies but i feel like they need to reduce the durability of zombie armor and reduce mangler spawns OR reduce how often they blast OR the distance they can blast Edit: Thank you very much for the hard work and spreadsheets. Great video as always! 🍩 Edit #2: I got to the part where you mentioned removing armored zombie's helmets. I like that idea. Treyarch! I hope you're listening!
I feel like just adding a hard cap on how many bullets are needed to break armor is a better balance than just removing the helmet. But I'm all for any solution. Honestly the low damage at high rounds doesn't bother me much, as annoying as it feels, it's really always been like this, since WaW.
@@notatypobrutha I feel like most people who even play CoD understand that aiming for the head is how you do the most damage, not even just CoD but Zombies in general. Honestly I don't think armored zombies are even necessary, but it is what it is.
@seang1032 i don't mind the helmets, I wish they constantly needed the same number of bullets to break each time. 2 on the heavy, 4 on the armored/military. When it takes 20 bullets to break one helmet, and then one shot to kill that's insane. My highest is 46, I don't like using wonder weapons. But box/wall/initial weapons just don't work past 30.
god man this is honestly my dream video on zombies I've always wanted someone to make it or do it myself but you nailed absolutely every point with facts, precison, lack of bias or acknowledging when you have bias stellar work man, praying kevin drew sees it
Chart only shows damage per Zombie, not a horde of 50 zombies. So ammo per kill should be a nice chart to see at levels 0 to 50. don't think it will be possible! but thanks for the hard work!
I think the solution might be a perk that increases bullet penetration, so that it might take longer per zombie, but you're hitting more than one. That or another PaP level
I feel like the range of the mangler cannon also increases by round, one round ill be at a safe distance and the next round ill be further away but still get hit by it, and it seems like when there is 4-5 shooting at once they just go through all objects including busses
@@rockstarrecovery1694 either that or straight up range, like i said they will spawn outta the window outside of bank training spot inbetween bowling alley and bank, and ill be safe all the way to gobblegum machine until like round 30-32ish then it seems like all their blast reach all the way to the drop off back into spawn and im just like bruh i was safe from this shit last round what happend
I've been hit essentially across the map on liberty falls, the mangler was at the stairs spawning in and I was at the burning car pile and he hit me from the middle of the stairs when he fired
@@Average_Internet_User101 that's basically what a player needs to do to push for 50. Watching Insomnia Virus get to 999 is how someone needs to play from 50 on
I’d be fine with the manglers if I didn’t feel like my gun just stopped working… when the ray gun on pack 3 needs 5 shots to kill 1 zombie, that becomes a problem. A “wonder weapon” isn’t so wonderful anymore.
Hasn't that always been an issue with zombies though? The ray gun always has had a round where it stops one-shotting and becomes less viable which makes the game hard. I think that it is fine for weapons to eventually fall off as long as it is a gradual change.
@@chsoccaerstar42_37I mean when none of the weapons are viable, some weapon needs to be useful, it's almost impossible to go to round 999 on terminus because it's just so bad
@@matthewloscar2893 the goal of your average player should not be round 999 though and if it is that's bad game design. Guns are supposed to fall off in zombies so you eventually die. If the game was easy to get to round 999 it wouldn't be as much of an achievement to do it. The mustang and Sally is also a gun that's viable late game. Scorestreaks and traps are another killing option late game.
@@matthewloscar2893this comment is everything wrong with the gaming community. Normal people aren’t trying to get to round 999. That doesn’t even make sense
@@wondoxl4866 it was an example, if you can't understand a simple example, then that's on you, maybe take an english class. zombie hp caps out at 50k, which is when it becomes nearly impossible to kill zombies. you literally cannot go to higher rounds without using a camp strat which isnt possible on terminus. if you're going to complain about the game not being casual friendly, you shouldn't be required to know where camp spots are just to get past round 40 using a meta strategy
Remember that in old zombies standard weapons were NOT useful in high rounds at all except for point hoarding. Even BO3 relied on AATs to keep regular guns "relevant". I think that what they're trying to do this time around is to make standard weapons USABLE at high rounds, while keeping them weak enough to hit that old school feel, so that you gravitate towards WW, traps, etc. Mutant injections aren't any more of a crutch compared to AATs if you ask me, so it's more a matter of preference. Now, I do think a zombie health nerf would be healthy for the game, cause currently they're not hitting that sweet spot I'm talking about, it more so feels like they're fooling you into thinking your gun is going to be somewhat useful, only to be a complete waste of resources and time.
@@raven_CwCFR alternate ammo types. Bo3 had thunder wall, blast furnace, turned, fireworks, and dead wire. All of these triggered an aoe effect that did infinite damage.
@@brayachdragonbane7529 yeah exactly, the armor is the main culprit, if you do on average 51k dps and zombies cap out at 50k that is good 1 kill per second which doesn't feel terrible for rounds 50 or 999. The problem is the armor taking that number, smearing shit all over it and making it 5.6k dps.
Fucking preach. The video is well put edited and written while also being nerdy with all the data necessary for your well argued points. Keep it up. I LOVE IT!
And why is there so many! At round 132 I started counting them and got like 184 of them in a single round it lasted 5-6 minutes while a normal round last like 2 at most
They are weaker and do more damage, they also don't attack your armor. You can have 3 plates and they'll still only hit you for your HP, but their attacks are super easy to avoid. In zombies they did a good job in terms of "monster" creation.
@@FrankyWillz yeah then they buffed its attack range making them annoying as hell in small areas, go and try to melee a few, and they never stop scaling for some reason. They are easy but super unfun, just sit in the jet gun room for 5mins shooting them at the door, they need to cap the rounds and make them shorter its just a boring time sink.
I think if they flipped the mangler arm asset and had some melee only manglers it would completely solve the problem. Let’s say even at the highest rounds the game only allows three ranged manglers MAX but can spawn a bunch of melee onlys, you can still train, you somewhat have to deal with horde disruption, health pools stay, etc. maybe as a compromise they also have an hvt boss round every 15 or so with a bonus reward to give it that MOTD & ORIGINS feel
This guy has some great content, it would be hilarious if he was at the office and his boss was like “hey Chris, do you think you can get these docs done?” Comes in his office just to see him working on this thinking “wow this guy is always working”
This video really shows everything Me and my other 2 friends did a round 51 boss. I couldn't recover. We didn't have enough money at the end to finish the boss so we unfortunately failed. I agree with the points that you mentioned in the video and what could be improved.
well thats exactly how it would be for terminus and liberty falls since thats how dlc perks get implemented, problem is they would make a machine for it in future maps, it would feel weird if they didn't and people would be unhappy to not have a machine even tho it would destroy early-midgame balance. They could make it like old double tap and have it increase only fire rate and maybe have its augments give a major damage boost to armor and special/elites.. idk.
I know that a lot of people have a problem with the manglers (me included) but i feel like another big issue, specifically with liberty falls, is that the abomination is such an annoying elite enemy to kill and takes so so so much ammo to do so while giving you so little in return, that paired with the large hordes of zombies with high hp and insane mangler spawns in the higher rounds its just so insufferable to deal with, not to mentioned as you go higher in the rounds even more can spawn. I don't really think there is a way to fix this because at its core the abomination is just a really poorly designed enemy, it takes the influence of a margwa where it has 3 heads that open periodically and whatnot you can destroy for big damage, but the abomination is CONSTANTLY charging at you with its mouths closed, it can turn and charge on a dime, and with higher rounds the ability to reliably hit it in its critical head points becomes so difficult because of the large hp hoard which it hides behind that paired with mangler spam makes it just this looming threat you have to dump everything into or suffer the consequences. The high rounds is just not fun because where in older games you have to actually play against the zombies, in this game its just playing against manglers and abominations every round and seeing how often you can open the crafting table for a killstreak before your game crashes or you die. This is also just a bit of a personal annoyance, but i think vermins/parasites do a very unneeded amount of plate damage while also being very fast. Having to deal with the horde, mangler spam, and abomination/amalgam every few rounds should be a fine amount of stress on staying alive with out the need to worry that a vermin will jump attack you, attack instantly again, and then youre already almost half health with a basically broken plate.
Personally, the biggest problem I have when playing around Round 40ish, it's the new ponts system. Not gaining points per shot makes impossible buying ammo or even perks if you go down and have a crappy gun
I think a way they could fix Mangler spam is if they can find a way to make it so that if there are more than 4 manglers on the map at a time they can't shoot their canon. If they basically got relegated to extra heavy armored zombies with faster running and harder hitting that would bw okay the constant projectile spam is what really annoys me. Or make it so up to 4 manglers can shoot that would be better. Personally i just don't like ranged attacks in zombies
This could work, tweak the cannon so it only stuns, and have a max of 2-3 on the map but have the rest in reserve for when you do get them. Like take one down another takes it's place kind of deal
I’ve attempted round 51 terminal dark ops three times now. And all three times I’ve either encountered a huge crafting and utility glitch where I can’t use scorestreaks, gums, and I don’t get any armor animations and sometimes even can’t use lethal and tactical, also not being able to craft at the table, or I get phases into a piece of debree or a wall. Not to mention the xp I get a pitiful amount of xp for exfilling at those rounds. Only 4-5 battle pass tokens and around 3-6 ish levels. It’s absurd it’s like I’m not getting any good rewards or even any good gopple gums. I hardly get 4 gums per round 50 and they’re all trash. For getting to such a high round and to get glitched out and fucked over, and then to get no rewards for completing it. It’s absolute bs. Like i absolutely love zombies and the game is good for the most part but like to get absolutely pitiful rewards for the amount of difficulty and bugs I encounter just feels like garbage. They need to fix this shit
People have two opinions on the point system, and it can be easily broken down into two groups with different scenarios. Group 1 that exfils below round 30 and group 2 for 30+. Group 1 says point system is balanced. 1. The argument goes, “its perfectly normal because it gives the stronger weapons the same point earning ability as weaker ones. “ Back then, someone might skip over using a shotgun/sniper early on in favor of using a weaker weapon, like an smg to earn points. However, with 2/3 weapon slots, it’s perfectly reasonable to save the shotgun/sniper/wonderweappn for later rounds in order to maximize points. I see people saying “the new point system is fine” but a real issue is when someone bleeds out or loses all their perks on round 30+. Now that SMG that was useful on early rounds is becoming less effective, and you run out of points quickly buying back perks or pack a punching. Group 1 may not have an issue with the point system, since zombie health is lower, its easier to recover from a bleedout. Group 2 is absolutely positively FUCKED. Group 2 loses perks, now blows 15k buying back perks, and their weapons dont do anything, thats where a point gun would come in super handy. For example, I was playing w randoms to round 55, and one of them had the misfortune of bleeding out on round 40. I ended up bleeding out too. Wed respawn and have 20-25k points to buy back our stuff and get back, but we quickly realized the points given wasnt nearly enough to help out. By respawning with only legendary weapons, It was either a toss up between “Buy PAP2 and pray it does enough dmg to buy back perks” or “Buy perks and use PHD/traps to slowly earn enough points to pack a punch “ Well, 3 of us ending up testing out everything before realizing we were fucked. Not enough dmg to earn points, not enough survivability with perks to make enough to pap. The game ended with one guy training and reviving us with the jetgun/raygun, while 3 of us died repeatedly trying to figure out how to recover from bleeding out.
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch. Difference was, pack a punching was useful but not if you can outrun super sprinters. I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch tier 2 and survive with no perks. Its a shitshow at high rounds, I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
You're delusional, I regularly go over 75+ and the points are fine. The people who go down a lot are the ones who complain because they burn through their points
Dude, spot on. Playing solo on Liberty Falls and Terminus, it takes a little bit of getting accustomed to the areas, for me at least, after that, somebody better help these zombies, LoL. Knowing about all you have at your disposal and knowing the zombies patterns, is why I don't complain about Manglers Abominations, or Nathan. I wholeheartedly agree about essence gains but the absurdity of a 500 essence increase price of subsequent perk purchases is overboard, unless in the future Reloaded Season updates we get augments or an attachment to increase essence gains.
@@huntermccarthy3995 Exactly. There are actually too many points if you ask me. The essence isn't even an issue once you get to certain rounds. The currency for high rounds is salvage. These kids are really bad at the game if they think this zombies is too hard 😂
I genuinely love your idea for armoured zombies without helmets. Super sprinters, with a cap of 2 manglers at a time and no armoured helmets would feel perfect for high rounds
So real. The presence of super-sprinters, armored zombies, manglers, elites, and aggressive spawns make high rounds horrible. High rounds are awesome, but the routine is what makes such long-form gameplay fun. BO6 is a constant ADHD trip (I would know), and it's insanely tiring to do that for longer time periods.
Just stopping in to say i love the camo tracker you posted. Its been 100x easier to track what else i need to complete. Got a new sub out of me, thank you!
26:59 My counter argument to this is deadshot. Deadshot is a perk that when aiming down sights it automatically targets the head. Maybe a better balance would be fewer armored zombies. I honestly don’t know. However I personally enjoy shooting the helmet off of a zombies head.
I feel like a kinda stupid simple, band aid fix would be more pack a punch levels and changing the cost scaling. It would be more like 5k -> 10k -> 20k -> 40k. It would increase raw damage of the guns and also not have a totally awful cost to get each pack level.
I want to say thank you for this video and more importantly your approach to this video. I love how you rather than being cynical or negative you took the time and analyzed the problem that you saw and then you looked at it from multiple angles and compared it to other experiences. I think too often now days people in this community see something like the unbalanced high rounds and simply say this sucks BO6 is trash which isn't true. I also really love how you took into account the developers perspective on how they created the game and as a game developer myself I really appreciate this because there isn't enough credit being given to them for what they have tried to do. They really have worked hard to give us a more engaging and fun zombies experience and as you mentioned there definitely are some problems with it currently but I don't think that those problem should completely discredit the good that they have done. I honestly believe that if they can get the balance issue to a better place BO6 overall could stand on a pedestal close to BO3 (because let's face it BO3 die hards will never accept anything is better then BO3) . So Thank you for taking the massive amount of time to truly diagnose the problem and make this video. I hope that the devs see it and take what you are saying into account.
as someone who returned after not playing since the real mw2 , i think you are the first youtuber that didnt just spew crap about fake metas and strats for views. thank you. have a sub. also very interesting topic well done with the spreadsheets.
Every time you post a video, I’m always so curious to see what you’re talking about because you put out so much good information. It helped me a lot in my zombie life. You’re probably one of my favorite zombie creators out there.
Thank you. Also, the head hit box on heavy armored zombies is completely broken/inconsistent. On top of taking several shots to break the helmet, i can't even get crit hits on them as a reward.
when they get close to me it is literally impossible to hit them in the head, I have to back up and aim for the neck or chest and it just counts as a headshot, it is so noticeable.
Yep. Noticed this over and over when I was abusing the boat pile up. Also the fact that so many people would rather sit in a pile up than actually play the game is very telling of how annoying and tedious this version of zombies is.
Another thing I find tedious is how narrow walkways get with so many zombies compared to the hit radius to the mangler cannon blast. I love getting away from a horde of zombies just to get megaclapped by four mangers all shooting at once. And you either have to take the cannon or get eaten by the zombies. Also it feels like the hit radius of zombies gets higher too.
I just feel like there should be a pack level 4 that cost 100k essence and a red ultra rarity for 10k scrap. Can even make the zombies health step up until round 60 or so. The mangler spawns don't bother me, especially needing 30 for diamond camos, I did 3 smgs diamond in 1 45 round game. The abominations at the higher rounds have way to much health, they arnt hard or even annoying, just bullet sponges.
@zacbarrett8875 100k is insane when the 3rd pack only cost 30k if there was a 4th pack lvl it should be only 50k thats more than enough and the ultra rare should be 7500 scrap since the legendary is 5000 youre going way over board when it already take mad long just to get scrap n points especially with 4 people
I watched the podcast (great btw), and you talk about how much you enjoyed the Easter egg hunts and how it connects the community, but that the hunt itself is a paradox because it needs to be complicated and unintuitive for it to last, but that turns away players from completing them. Do you think the new directed mode fixes this issue so now Tryarch can go as crazy as they want with the Easter egg?
Whilst I'm not a fan of Double Tap 2.0 returning due to breaking early game balance, I wouldn't mind Double Tap 1.0 returning however. It could even have a major augment like "Every bullet has a chance to split into two, dealing double damage", because then it could help fully auto weapons whilst leaving other augments available to make Double Tap helpful for other kinds of weapons.
@@Paralyzed-rm6vcI'd disagree personally. Even removing it breaking early round balancing I still don't wanna see Double Tap 2.0 return in this game because... we don't need it. We got the current PAP system and weapon rarity system for a reason, it's the better solution to double tap's weapon effectiveness (and is far better than BO4 making you pack every gun 5 times)
@@TopSuperKickerBO4's PaP is almost as bad as Advanced Warfare's system PaP'ing 5 times is a horrible system. The 3 tier PaP we have now is a little better, but it's not great. However, if you Double Tap 2.0 game breaking for the early game why do we have Pack-a-Punch, Perks or Wonder Weapons? You're argument is "early game balance," but if you're skilled you get Tier 3 PaP before Perks or Armor, which practically does the same thing.
I remember by the end of cold wars life cycle they made a good change to high rounds, they made the zombie and mini boss levels cap off around 50 so they didn’t get insanely hard to kill. And Cold War to me is still one of my favorite modern zombies experience, maybe eventually they will implement a similar change in the Future and cap the health for this games zombies around 30 instead of 50
13:54 Doughnuts, I love your positivity, but a bullet sponge that fires homing explosive missiles on a game where enemies were not meant to shoot back to the player is not 'beautifully designed'.
I can't believe I'm saying this... but you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! This might be the greatest take I've ever heard! You not only back it up with research, evidence, facts, and logic, but you show passion and care about the game. I truly do believe the Mangler is an amazing enemy, and it's only getting hate for the late round spam. While I will say it can be lazy to reuse the same enemy over and over, it's different when said enemy is well crafted and iconic. We also can't forget that this isn't the only series to reuse the same mid boss/boss enemy. I really think that, like you said, the armored zombies need to have no helmets, and manglers need to have a spawn cap. I'd be OK with having more than 3 TOTAL manglers in one round, but never seeing more than 2 or 3 at a time. They keep things interesting. I also have found a bit of a love-hate relationship with Abominations. I really like how you can feed them frags, thermals, and semtexs to blow off their heads, and even kill them out right by doing this on their last head.
Thank you donut! I've been waiting for someone to tell them thay went to far. I'm a OG zombies player from ww2 from the beginning and thay have gone into left field with this mangler thing. Thanks again!
I have a few different points I'd like to make as a data scientist. First of all, thank you for putting together a visualization for difficulty as the rounds progress. I think a visual is really useful in conveying the idea of difficulty in an easy to understand way that isn't strictly qualitative. I personally don't think dps or kills per second are the best way to measure this though. What stuck out the most to me was that in rounds 10-20 you calculated that there would be 15-25 kills per second. Although this is what the dps value would reflect, does it really make sense? For the saug, the faster firing of the two weapons, the default fire rate is 15.15 rounds per second. DPS assumes all damage is being dealt to a zombie but this does not account for overflow. In other words, if a headshot is a one-shot it doesn't matter what the dps is and guns dealing infinite damage will feel the same as a gun dealing the exact damage of the zombies health. This discrepancy could cause the visual to be skewed in certain places by inflating any range where you are dealing more than the maximum health per shot. I think a better value to use here would be bullets per kill (zombie health / damage per bullet rounded up) which could also be divided by the fire rate (in terms of rounds per second) to find a more accurate time to kill. This would still lead us to the same conclusion but the difference between round 15 to round 30+ would likely seem smaller. Now what do I think could be done to improve the high round gameplay? First of all, I don't think Treyarch balances the game with high rounding as a top priority. The core gameplay loop of zombies is surviving the apocalypose for a period of time and eventually dying once you are overrun. My games usually last somewhere between an 1 and 2 hours which in my opinion is a relatively good balance for the length of a game. Making each game last longer than this fundamentally changes the game. Without playing in an intentionally unfun way (any meta strategy that is fundamentally different from how your average player would play) I think it should be impossible to progress past a certain point. I don't know how controversial that opinion is but I personally think that a 2 hour limit is about what you should be aiming for. I don't think the game should be balanced past a certain point to reinforce this as this is how zombies has always been. With that said, I think there are definitely improvements that can be made to make the transition to those impossible rounds a little more gradual. I think the most obvious problem is the number of manglers. The gameplay fundamentally changes when you have to dodge multiple ranged attacks at the same time which most players find unfun. The two ways I see to address this would be to either reduce their fire rate in some way or to reduce the number of manglers that are on the map at any given time. This would target the issue of dodging multiple ranged attacks at once, but comes with the consequence of making the game easier which, as stated in the previous paragraph, shouldn't be the goal. As a result, the game would have to be made more difficult in some other way such as increasing mangler health (I think this isn't the best approach since manglers being bullet sponges is already a major complaint), increasing the damage dealt, or in the case of reducing the number of manglers on the map the fire rate could be increased. No matter which route is taken, I think purely nerfing manglers and not making some other aspect of the game harder would be an unfun change that would make the game easier when it does not need to be. I'd love to hear any other perspectives on the points that I've made this far. I just think that there is a difference between something being unfun and something being difficult which can be easily conflated. The goal should be to die eventually while making it feel like there was something you could have done in that situation to prevent it even if that thing was really hard. I think introducing the health cap was a net negative since it prevents the rounds from getting harder after a certain point and turns the game into "if I can survive round 100 I will do the same thing until round 999 and make it after 200 hours or whatever" which isn't fun for the majority of the playerbase who haven't even spent that much time with the game open.
I think the best "fix" or possible solution would be to add Double Tap but only have it accessible through the wunderfizz on every current map and maps afterwards. This would mean that at round 25 (when the Wunderfizz spawns) if you need that extra damage you can purchase Double Tap. Alternatively even make the Wunderfizz appear even later at round 30 since round 1-30 is already extremely easy and damage only starts to fall off past 30. I'm not saying this would fix high rounds, but Treyarch could do their own testing to see how this works in practice. (even though Treyarch doesn't playtest BO6, evident by the numerous bugs)
Never seen your content before. Excellent video and analysis (just subscribed). I think another issue that contributes to the balance conversation is the points system. 1 kill per second (ignoring non-regular zombies) means you’re burning through ammo, but you only get points per kill rather than per hit like before. I was super disappointed to realize on my second game that I didn’t have enough points for ammo, but then I remembered wall guns and got excited again. Then I realized it took 2-3 full magazines to kill one armored zombie even with headshots and just quit the game
(Full discretion I mostly enjoy easter eggs and not super high round gameplay due to physical limitations) I feel like I might be the odd one out saying this but I enjoy the difficulty spike in BO6. The last COD I played was CW because of the zombies refresh and that was super accessible for newcomers, being a fair bit easier than previous titles. I rlly like this year's change to zombies spawns, dmg, and training potential, it just keeps me on my toes when just running backwards. That said, I'm not at all opposed to tuning changes in BO6. I could absolutely use some more ammo during later rounds lol 😅
Such a GREAT video. I feel like I'm the only one who really misses Outbreak. I loved having that option. Felt like longer missions and more of an adventure. Then we could jump back into round based and go nuts. More options >>> less options. 5 kills per second also seems to be a sweet spot. Round 30 feels great. Challenging but weapons still feel fairly good.
There's a few ways I'd change manglers. Either doing variants, basic ones that don't have the armor on the head and maybe weaker armor on the chest so you get rewarded for getting critical shots on them still, then having the fully armored one we have right now showing up less often, but still here and there. Or when you shoot the charging cannon it would do a little AoE blast around the mangler that stunned other elites nearby with a decently generous radius, giving you the chance to maneuver or chain some cannon destructions and instantly killing zombies in a smaller radius around the mangler. Changes like the latter in particular could keep a similar difficulty ceiling, but give you skillful options to tackle it with.
Great video, love the stats! Well done in the collection of it. One thing to mention with Double tap, not only does it double damage output, but it increases DPS by 20%, correct me if I'm wrong but that would increase Kills Per Second by 20%, making the early game overpowered situation even worse than it seemed! But could be really balanced late game
@ Doughnuts no other streamer is talking about these graphs and numbers. You are digging into the components/programming of the game. This is Treyarch developer talk; and congrats on the 99K subscribers.😄
I haven't played a cod since infinite warfare, bought this game the other day and I've been playing a ton of zombies, I'm halfway through my opals and I bought the game 6 days ago. The main thing that struck out to me immediately when I played my first couple of games was how many things you have in the game just to keep you alive... In bo2 for instance you had jug, monkeys and quick revive (which could only be used 3 or so times on solo), in this game you've got jug, armour, decoy grenades (which can be equipped in your loadout), monkeys, all the scorestreaks make you invulnerable with the exception of the mangler cannon, self revive which can be recrafted over and over again (I believe), aether shroud/ frenzied guard... and tbh all of the field upgrades can get you out of a pinch and then also you have other things that will make you invulnerable which are map dependant, such as the code on nathan in terminus. There is just so much to keep you alive in spots where you make a mistake and get cornered, it feels like it's impossible to die sometimes, you can practically cycle your way through all of these different methods to get zombies off of you and so the only way the game can make itself difficult is with mangler spam. I feel like they need to work on that, if you make a mistake and get cornered, you should probably die.
I feel like the struggle begins early on. Salvage doesn't seem to drop enough to be able to get your guns to decent rarity even with a silencer... (Assuming you want to get more than your starter past grey tier.) Then you run that very fine line of "Do I wanna get perks and stay weak or do I wanna upgrade and have no perks?" I swear I don't recall it being such a struggle to get somewhat stable...
Also wanted to mention that i watched your podcast and saw your face for the first time was making me so happy. Please use your facecam more often😊 its the one thing iam missing in your videos. The rest is perfekt ❤😊
For my solution I was gonna suggest adding double tap 1.0 perk and having a doubletap 2.0 major augment that doubles damage on armored zombies only. That way the weapon balance isn’t destroyed at lower rounds and at higher rounds the perk helps deal with the annoying armor. But I actually like your solution much better. Making it so that armored zombies aren’t armored at the head seems like a much better solution.
I think the problem with lowing the health cap is the fact that rounds are capped at 250 zombies per round. Lowering the health cap would also drastically change the pace of rounds. As you increase in rounds the idea of them getting longer and longer meant that instead of your focus being on the zombies health increasing it would be on the length of the round(with infinite damage weapons and strats of course). I find my issue right now being that outside of killstreaks there is no infinite damage source, like deadwire or some older wonderweapons. 250 zombies per round and 50ish zombies spawned at once made it that they had to focus on making that short 250 zombies feel challenging instead of spreading it out over sometimes thousands of kills. I can't fully pinpoint why I don't like the idea of always being able to kill with weapons. It might be because then what is the point of wonderweapons, traps, and ammo mods if you can just shoot. I am definitely biased in that I think for high high rounds you should be restricted to those three things. However killstreaks completely ruin that idea. Im yappin at this point but have never put my two cents into a conversation like this. Overall Im enjoying this years zombies much more than I dislike it. just did a round 100 run on terminus and did ee at the end. my only complaint is that I cant train without almost assuredly dying. Both maps high round strats being restrained to camping in a corner so you don't get jumped from behind or using killstreaks kinda sucks. Those are fine for being strats, but I would also like to add training with the wonderweapons, traps without the zombies despawing, and ammo mods being able to actually kill zombies would be good for me. Just a couple more options would be all I want. Also please don't put manglers in any other maps anymore. They have been in like 8 maps now or something crazy like that. Something new. Well done if youput up with reading all that. Happy zombie killing!
Very well done video. I've been playing zombies from the beginning. This is definitely a great game and is certainly more difficult.the manglers are a bit ridiculous. If we could get the armored zombies without the helmets and less manglers in higher rounds I would be so happy.
This is a great video. We'll done. I personally think the difficulty is great. I was very worried it was going to be too easy. Every great zombies map has a different strategy for high rounds. My only concern is that BO6 high rounds will be the same regardless of the map, wonderweapon in the specific area until mutant injection, repeat. If Treyarch can give us one or two more viable options, this game could be great.
I’ve learned when training to just ignore the manglers until the end of the round so they are the only thing left. It makes the rounds so much smoother
Off the top of my head double tap being brought back but something more like the below would be great to me. Double tap: Base ability - 25% increase to fire rate & bullet penetration. Major 1 - 25% Increase armor penetration damage. Major 2 - pack a punch tiers cost 25% less Major 3 - double weapon damage for 20 seconds when field upgrade is activated. Minor 1 - weapons obtained from the wall or mystery box earn 10% more essence (icon will glow when holding eligible gun) Minor 2 - 15% further increase to fire rate Minor 3 - 20% increase in reserve ammo I feel like this is way more balanced than just doing 2.0. First minor is me having abit of fun with the idea of a perk enhancing the use of classic systems
This meta may be a placeholder until we get many more variety of enemy types, it's still a developing game as we speak. I Enjoyed this video, well done!
I’m a huge roguelike enjoyer and there are already some aspects in the game already(augments) so I think it would be a cool idea to have random upgrades so each run feels unique and so we can keep getting stronger. Might have to be its own mode but I think it would make the game more fun.
Zombies players love a long experience, it makes you feel like you set up correctly for the game mode. The devs are too focused on creating a 30-45 min experience. They say it’s for the “casual crowd” but I think it’s simply for server usage. We don’t want to set up from zero every 30 min so we just log off for the day and that makes their online servers receive less elongated traffic.
I agree with everything you've said, including the double tap thing I would say with double tap for them to make it more viable and not just do double damage. Maybe have an augment for it where every third bullet you shoot does a percent-based damage to zombie health so that even if their health keeps scaling upwards until you eventually hit the cap, you'll still be able to chunk the zombies because with double tap it's taking a percentage of their health instead of just doing a flat damage that made sense. Sorry I'm not very good at explaining stuff
The spawn timing is jacked up…. No matter if you kill zombies or not, a couple minutes into the round they’re still popping up… Ammalgums respawning right behind you after they were just 20ft the other direction. This makes getting past round 45 without using WWs and pistols pretty tough…
Your effort in reverse engineering the details of what makes this game tick is immensely impressive. Thank you for being the community zombies mythbuster!
Could not agree more with everything you stated here. For me going for the boss fight after round 50 on Terminus for the Dark Ops challenge was the most painful experience as there is no fun at all, after like round 40.
I highly doubt you'll ever see this. But I'd like to have a one-on-one conversation on Bo6 Zombies, perhaps while working or gaming. Your effort and work here is fantastic and very necessary. I'm glad someone finally got around to reviewing HR in Bo6. I'd like to get into contact with you and Milo (MrRoflWaffles). Joey Conway - a friend and coworker of his, and/or perhaps 'Margwa' - both who assist with his content.
We keep talking about it, but I honestly just believe Treyarch doesn’t want high round plays. They want you to complete the EE before round 30 and stop playing, and most casual players won’t be surviving beyond that anyways (don’t believe me? join a public match and see) so they peak the fun and then slowly let you down to gently say “Stop playing”
Love your vids👏👏👏💚💚💚I think with the right augments it's well balanced. Mzc I think is his name had a good vid. Stam augments now almost makes you immuned to manglers blasts imo.
Another solution that would work pretty well is adding pap IV and ultra weapon rarity. It would naturally be expensive so you won't get them till at least round 35 which would make it way more balanced then double tap which you can get at round 2. This would give you about 5 kills per second at health cap, with deadshot and armored zombies but not factoring in manglers and ammo mods. I think this is a heathy balance. The idea of lowering the health cap and mangler count is also good
11:50 thats one of my sour points, that it takes so long to kill zombies in the horde that they spawn new ones behind you and you can get trapped if you aren't careful. 21:40 "Base Jugg" I always forget about augments
One thing that I really hate about trying to train in BO6 Zombies is how the Zombies spawn. If you go just a little bit away from the horde, they will always despawn and spawn in front of you, including the boss Zombies, causing you to always be on the run, because you don't have any time to breathe due to how many are spawning directly in front of you.
Also, using the traps suffer from the same issue. Only a few Zombies will end up going through the trap, the rest will despawn and spawn behind you as you watch the trap.
@@Vintagesonic1 which traps tho? dafgs dont have this issue cus they cover massive areas, and the tentacle traps dont really have this either cus theyre in decent training areas, so you can just slide under them to have them kill zombies
If im playing with a squad, and i leave liberty lanes to go up the phd steps, the zombies always despawn for some reason
Yeah, I remember BO4 being heavily criticized for this, but BO6 is a comical escalation of this problem. It is a very cheap way of making the gameplay more frantic at the cost of actual depth. You should be able to navigate the maps outside of the most open spaces without the entire horde instantly respawning in front of you. You barely have to move before they start pouring out of the spawns on the other side of the room.
Yeah I totally get it but you have to remember that the speeds at which we move around now are far faster and more refined than the earlier zombies and, the fact that there's 50zds on map at a time if you killed one another would spawn somewhere near you factors in also. I do prefer the old ways of having a whole horde follow you around the map if needed but cod just wants you to be engaged all of the time.
@ There’s got to be a more refined solution. It is, at the very least, over-tuned. Maybe if there was a cap where only 25 of the 50 zombies are free to respawn very aggressively, they could maintain some of the strategic control of the old games without being too easy.
I still think manglers should have a spawn cap of two, but can still have 8 in a wave, they just can’t all be out all at once.
100000% this please
@@Doughnuts it’s an opinion I’ve had for ages, cause it allows people to still easily grind opal while keeping their spawns in check.
But people want the total manglers gutted when this is a simpler solution that doesn’t make those grinding for camo’s groan in annoyance and head to directed as a result 🤣
I like this idea. Special and elite enemies are cool. It's not necessarily annoying to have a lot in general, what's annoying is how many you can see at once. I like having them mixed in, but it is a bit much when you are actively dealing with a bunch of them at once alongside the usual horde.
Agreed
Or maybe let us shoot their projectile to disable its tracking?
Buffing the ammo mods so they’re actually capable of killing hoards and reducing their cooldowns would go along way imo
I disagree, weapon damage should be buffed, Because I actually tend to not apply Ammo mods on my weapons because Ammo Mod Kills cancel out Heashot Kills, I just wish weapons did more damage in those later rounds!
@@Super_AC1 Augments do exactly that lol.
@@Average_Internet_User101I Think adding higher tiers of PaP can help with that. Instead of 3 tiers I think there should be 5.
@@kingquan3826 Fine by me, just remember people already complain about the point system, so don't give them any more validity!
The launchers especially can’t make enough essence to buy ammo that it takes to kill zombies
i think another thing that aids in it being brutal is how points are gained now
back in a bo2 or some such youd see your points skyrocket for firing into a horde, and that felt GOOD
now, on a high round, you dont get that anymore, so you dont get the gratification, it just feels like trying to break down a brick wall with your fist
god forbid you go down and have to buy back perks or you bleedout. I played until round 50 and with 25k points, you cant pack a punch to do enough dmg to buy perks, and you cant survive with perks long enough to pack a punch tier 3. If there was a point gun, you could train with an smg, spray, and buy back your stuff. Highrounds is either you survive and never go down, or youre fucked.
Nah points have never been a problem
@@youtubehandle-u2l yeah that’s why I only ever run 4 or so perks, quick revive, jug, speed cola, and stamina up. Otherwise it’s a massive reinvestment
@@youtubehandle-u2lRound 50 with 25k? Skill issue
@@the-real-et I understand what your saying I actually get that gratification in bo6 when I kill zombies with killing a horde with double points and get only headshots it feels great and a few thousand points
Remember that Double Tap increases the fire rate of the weapons by 30%. That’s also very important for Ray Gun or Sallies
Maybe make double tap cost 2 bullets therefore increasing damage at the cost of ammo depleting faster. Cause just giving free double damage isn’t reasonable.
@@bigjones7357you'd still be dealing x2 damage in early rounds making it basically an instant kill. And it wouldn't change late game
33%* but yea
Always double tap.
Remember, Shooting faster also means running out of ammo faster!
I dont mind super sprinters and more zombies but i feel like they need to reduce the durability of zombie armor and reduce mangler spawns OR reduce how often they blast OR the distance they can blast
Edit: Thank you very much for the hard work and spreadsheets. Great video as always! 🍩
Edit #2: I got to the part where you mentioned removing armored zombie's helmets. I like that idea. Treyarch! I hope you're listening!
I feel like just adding a hard cap on how many bullets are needed to break armor is a better balance than just removing the helmet.
But I'm all for any solution. Honestly the low damage at high rounds doesn't bother me much, as annoying as it feels, it's really always been like this, since WaW.
@@kxjabremoving the helmets only changes the game for noobs. All other zombies players were already going for the crit
@@notatypobrutha I feel like most people who even play CoD understand that aiming for the head is how you do the most damage, not even just CoD but Zombies in general.
Honestly I don't think armored zombies are even necessary, but it is what it is.
@@seang1032 stop wranglers from tracking with their shots and that will stop half the problems
@seang1032 i don't mind the helmets, I wish they constantly needed the same number of bullets to break each time. 2 on the heavy, 4 on the armored/military. When it takes 20 bullets to break one helmet, and then one shot to kill that's insane. My highest is 46, I don't like using wonder weapons. But box/wall/initial weapons just don't work past 30.
god man this is honestly my dream video on zombies
I've always wanted someone to make it or do it myself but you nailed absolutely every point with facts, precison, lack of bias or acknowledging when you have bias
stellar work man, praying kevin drew sees it
Chart only shows damage per Zombie, not a horde of 50 zombies. So ammo per kill should be a nice chart to see at levels 0 to 50. don't think it will be possible! but thanks for the hard work!
@@DEJAFOOL010 this.
Hordes are 40 Zombies in BO6
Terminus:
Kills Zombie > Spider pops out of head
Kills Spider > Morphs into mosquito
Finally kills Mosquito!
@@Average_Internet_User101 I ran into this a handfull of time on liberty too
Rare but possible, I don’t know how 😅
I just wanna say that I'm impressed with the amount of work and effort you put into this.
I think the solution might be a perk that increases bullet penetration, so that it might take longer per zombie, but you're hitting more than one. That or another PaP level
Death perception 🤔
2 more pap levels.
I can see them doing this with a new version of double tap.. increased fire rate and bullet penetration.
Bro there’s attachments that do that.
@ you could say the exact same thing for speed cola mate, the point is stacking the buff
I feel like the range of the mangler cannon also increases by round, one round ill be at a safe distance and the next round ill be further away but still get hit by it, and it seems like when there is 4-5 shooting at once they just go through all objects including busses
Splash damage seems to increase. I agree
@@rockstarrecovery1694 either that or straight up range, like i said they will spawn outta the window outside of bank training spot inbetween bowling alley and bank, and ill be safe all the way to gobblegum machine until like round 30-32ish then it seems like all their blast reach all the way to the drop off back into spawn and im just like bruh i was safe from this shit last round what happend
They do 100% this game is starting to become more trouble than it's worth for high rounds i go to 25 to 30
@@rockstarrecovery1694 the damage 100% goes up, same with zombies normal swipes
I've been hit essentially across the map on liberty falls, the mangler was at the stairs spawning in and I was at the burning car pile and he hit me from the middle of the stairs when he fired
The only thing worse than missing an exfil round 31 is missing it round 36.
I'll do the Easter egg or die trying before I slog it out to 41 again.
Fax!💀☠️⚰️
My highest round is 41. Consistently exfil at 31
@@mr.neqtan try this, you can go for 36 or even 41, just pickup and/or keep 1 or 2 choppergunners for the Double Amalgamation/abomination rounds!👍
@@Average_Internet_User101 that's basically what a player needs to do to push for 50. Watching Insomnia Virus get to 999 is how someone needs to play from 50 on
Just use an exit strategy gobblegum
I’d be fine with the manglers if I didn’t feel like my gun just stopped working… when the ray gun on pack 3 needs 5 shots to kill 1 zombie, that becomes a problem. A “wonder weapon” isn’t so wonderful anymore.
Hasn't that always been an issue with zombies though? The ray gun always has had a round where it stops one-shotting and becomes less viable which makes the game hard. I think that it is fine for weapons to eventually fall off as long as it is a gradual change.
@@chsoccaerstar42_37I mean when none of the weapons are viable, some weapon needs to be useful, it's almost impossible to go to round 999 on terminus because it's just so bad
@@matthewloscar2893 the goal of your average player should not be round 999 though and if it is that's bad game design. Guns are supposed to fall off in zombies so you eventually die. If the game was easy to get to round 999 it wouldn't be as much of an achievement to do it. The mustang and Sally is also a gun that's viable late game. Scorestreaks and traps are another killing option late game.
@@matthewloscar2893this comment is everything wrong with the gaming community. Normal people aren’t trying to get to round 999. That doesn’t even make sense
@@wondoxl4866 it was an example, if you can't understand a simple example, then that's on you, maybe take an english class. zombie hp caps out at 50k, which is when it becomes nearly impossible to kill zombies. you literally cannot go to higher rounds without using a camp strat which isnt possible on terminus. if you're going to complain about the game not being casual friendly, you shouldn't be required to know where camp spots are just to get past round 40 using a meta strategy
This is literally one of the most impressive and passionate videos I’ve seen from someone
Remember that in old zombies standard weapons were NOT useful in high rounds at all except for point hoarding. Even BO3 relied on AATs to keep regular guns "relevant".
I think that what they're trying to do this time around is to make standard weapons USABLE at high rounds, while keeping them weak enough to hit that old school feel, so that you gravitate towards WW, traps, etc. Mutant injections aren't any more of a crutch compared to AATs if you ask me, so it's more a matter of preference.
Now, I do think a zombie health nerf would be healthy for the game, cause currently they're not hitting that sweet spot I'm talking about, it more so feels like they're fooling you into thinking your gun is going to be somewhat useful, only to be a complete waste of resources and time.
i think its more the armor than their hp... the damage mitigation is brutal...
@@ElCocoLocoBarrocoComeMocos Exactly youre right but the Ray Gun is not strong enough ingame tbh on high rounds.
As a French player, What is AAT ? 😅😂
@@raven_CwCFR alternate ammo types. Bo3 had thunder wall, blast furnace, turned, fireworks, and dead wire. All of these triggered an aoe effect that did infinite damage.
@@brayachdragonbane7529 yeah exactly, the armor is the main culprit, if you do on average 51k dps and zombies cap out at 50k that is good 1 kill per second which doesn't feel terrible for rounds 50 or 999. The problem is the armor taking that number, smearing shit all over it and making it 5.6k dps.
Fucking preach. The video is well put edited and written while also being nerdy with all the data necessary for your well argued points. Keep it up. I LOVE IT!
Those vermin cap out doing 160 damage!!! They two tap you without armor! Why do they do more damage than normal zombies?! What the hell?!
And why is there so many! At round 132 I started counting them and got like 184 of them in a single round it lasted 5-6 minutes while a normal round last like 2 at most
Thats the point, they are weaker but do more damage
They are weaker and do more damage, they also don't attack your armor. You can have 3 plates and they'll still only hit you for your HP, but their attacks are super easy to avoid. In zombies they did a good job in terms of "monster" creation.
@@FrankyWillz yeah then they buffed its attack range making them annoying as hell in small areas, go and try to melee a few, and they never stop scaling for some reason. They are easy but super unfun, just sit in the jet gun room for 5mins shooting them at the door, they need to cap the rounds and make them shorter its just a boring time sink.
i swear i’ve seen a Vermin dash tap me for 200 damage on 31-54, but i might be bias
I think if they flipped the mangler arm asset and had some melee only manglers it would completely solve the problem. Let’s say even at the highest rounds the game only allows three ranged manglers MAX but can spawn a bunch of melee onlys, you can still train, you somewhat have to deal with horde disruption, health pools stay, etc. maybe as a compromise they also have an hvt boss round every 15 or so with a bonus reward to give it that MOTD & ORIGINS feel
This guy has some great content, it would be hilarious if he was at the office and his boss was like “hey Chris, do you think you can get these docs done?”
Comes in his office just to see him working on this thinking “wow this guy is always working”
This video really shows everything
Me and my other 2 friends did a round 51 boss. I couldn't recover. We didn't have enough money at the end to finish the boss so we unfortunately failed. I agree with the points that you mentioned in the video and what could be improved.
make the double tap only spawn in wonderfizz is kinda solves the issue its being OP in early rnd's
We only need it for 30+ anyways
That’s what I was thinking just keep it 25+ only
well thats exactly how it would be for terminus and liberty falls since thats how dlc perks get implemented, problem is they would make a machine for it in future maps, it would feel weird if they didn't and people would be unhappy to not have a machine even tho it would destroy early-midgame balance. They could make it like old double tap and have it increase only fire rate and maybe have its augments give a major damage boost to armor and special/elites.. idk.
Nah can't have crutch perks even though there is no perk limit anymore.
Kid named free perk power up:
honestly i’m just so happy that zombies fans and creators have stuff to discuss about again.
I know that a lot of people have a problem with the manglers (me included) but i feel like another big issue, specifically with liberty falls, is that the abomination is such an annoying elite enemy to kill and takes so so so much ammo to do so while giving you so little in return, that paired with the large hordes of zombies with high hp and insane mangler spawns in the higher rounds its just so insufferable to deal with, not to mentioned as you go higher in the rounds even more can spawn. I don't really think there is a way to fix this because at its core the abomination is just a really poorly designed enemy, it takes the influence of a margwa where it has 3 heads that open periodically and whatnot you can destroy for big damage, but the abomination is CONSTANTLY charging at you with its mouths closed, it can turn and charge on a dime, and with higher rounds the ability to reliably hit it in its critical head points becomes so difficult because of the large hp hoard which it hides behind that paired with mangler spam makes it just this looming threat you have to dump everything into or suffer the consequences. The high rounds is just not fun because where in older games you have to actually play against the zombies, in this game its just playing against manglers and abominations every round and seeing how often you can open the crafting table for a killstreak before your game crashes or you die.
This is also just a bit of a personal annoyance, but i think vermins/parasites do a very unneeded amount of plate damage while also being very fast. Having to deal with the horde, mangler spam, and abomination/amalgam every few rounds should be a fine amount of stress on staying alive with out the need to worry that a vermin will jump attack you, attack instantly again, and then youre already almost half health with a basically broken plate.
Especially when there's like 3 or 4 abominations in 1 round all at once lol
Personally, the biggest problem I have when playing around Round 40ish, it's the new ponts system.
Not gaining points per shot makes impossible buying ammo or even perks if you go down and have a crappy gun
I love this point system tbh I was always lazy as a kid and having to point my gun at a knee was dreadful😂💨
I think a way they could fix Mangler spam is if they can find a way to make it so that if there are more than 4 manglers on the map at a time they can't shoot their canon. If they basically got relegated to extra heavy armored zombies with faster running and harder hitting that would bw okay the constant projectile spam is what really annoys me. Or make it so up to 4 manglers can shoot that would be better. Personally i just don't like ranged attacks in zombies
Or go back to where the Mangler cannon shots weren't homing missiles that follow you
@@AstriaTVTruthExposed exactly this. all they need to do is make the mangler blasts not track and actually stop when they hit walls or cars
This could work, tweak the cannon so it only stuns, and have a max of 2-3 on the map but have the rest in reserve for when you do get them. Like take one down another takes it's place kind of deal
Loving the graphs mate. Makes everything easier to understand. Keep up the good work.
I’ve attempted round 51 terminal dark ops three times now. And all three times I’ve either encountered a huge crafting and utility glitch where I can’t use scorestreaks, gums, and I don’t get any armor animations and sometimes even can’t use lethal and tactical, also not being able to craft at the table, or I get phases into a piece of debree or a wall. Not to mention the xp I get a pitiful amount of xp for exfilling at those rounds. Only 4-5 battle pass tokens and around 3-6 ish levels. It’s absurd it’s like I’m not getting any good rewards or even any good gopple gums. I hardly get 4 gums per round 50 and they’re all trash. For getting to such a high round and to get glitched out and fucked over, and then to get no rewards for completing it. It’s absolute bs. Like i absolutely love zombies and the game is good for the most part but like to get absolutely pitiful rewards for the amount of difficulty and bugs I encounter just feels like garbage. They need to fix this shit
You're doing a great job with making these Videos. You're helping us more than you think bro. Well done 🤝🏻
People have two opinions on the point system, and it can be easily broken down into two groups with different scenarios.
Group 1 that exfils below round 30 and group 2 for 30+. Group 1 says point system is balanced.
1. The argument goes, “its perfectly normal because it gives the stronger weapons the same point earning ability as weaker ones. “ Back then, someone might skip over using a shotgun/sniper early on in favor of using a weaker weapon, like an smg to earn points. However, with 2/3 weapon slots, it’s perfectly reasonable to save the shotgun/sniper/wonderweappn for later rounds in order to maximize points. I see people saying “the new point system is fine” but a real issue is when someone bleeds out or loses all their perks on round 30+. Now that SMG that was useful on early rounds is becoming less effective, and you run out of points quickly buying back perks or pack a punching.
Group 1 may not have an issue with the point system, since zombie health is lower, its easier to recover from a bleedout. Group 2 is absolutely positively FUCKED. Group 2 loses perks, now blows 15k buying back perks, and their weapons dont do anything, thats where a point gun would come in super handy. For example, I was playing w randoms to round 55, and one of them had the misfortune of bleeding out on round 40. I ended up bleeding out too. Wed respawn and have 20-25k points to buy back our stuff and get back, but we quickly realized the points given wasnt nearly enough to help out. By respawning with only legendary weapons, It was either a toss up between “Buy PAP2 and pray it does enough dmg to buy back perks” or “Buy perks and use PHD/traps to slowly earn enough points to pack a punch “ Well, 3 of us ending up testing out everything before realizing we were fucked. Not enough dmg to earn points, not enough survivability with perks to make enough to pap. The game ended with one guy training and reviving us with the jetgun/raygun, while 3 of us died repeatedly trying to figure out how to recover from bleeding out.
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch. Difference was, pack a punching was useful but not if you can outrun super sprinters. I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch tier 2 and survive with no perks. Its a shitshow at high rounds, I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
You're delusional, I regularly go over 75+ and the points are fine. The people who go down a lot are the ones who complain because they burn through their points
Dude, spot on. Playing solo on Liberty Falls and Terminus, it takes a little bit of getting accustomed to the areas, for me at least, after that, somebody better help these zombies, LoL. Knowing about all you have at your disposal and knowing the zombies patterns, is why I don't complain about Manglers Abominations, or Nathan. I wholeheartedly agree about essence gains but the absurdity of a 500 essence increase price of subsequent perk purchases is overboard, unless in the future Reloaded Season updates we get augments or an attachment to increase essence gains.
@@huntermccarthy3995
Exactly. There are actually too many points if you ask me. The essence isn't even an issue once you get to certain rounds. The currency for high rounds is salvage. These kids are really bad at the game if they think this zombies is too hard 😂
I genuinely love your idea for armoured zombies without helmets. Super sprinters, with a cap of 2 manglers at a time and no armoured helmets would feel perfect for high rounds
So real. The presence of super-sprinters, armored zombies, manglers, elites, and aggressive spawns make high rounds horrible. High rounds are awesome, but the routine is what makes such long-form gameplay fun. BO6 is a constant ADHD trip (I would know), and it's insanely tiring to do that for longer time periods.
Just stopping in to say i love the camo tracker you posted. Its been 100x easier to track what else i need to complete. Got a new sub out of me, thank you!
THANK YOU for this video. This is what happens when you listen to feedback of people who havent played the game.
26:59 My counter argument to this is deadshot. Deadshot is a perk that when aiming down sights it automatically targets the head. Maybe a better balance would be fewer armored zombies. I honestly don’t know. However I personally enjoy shooting the helmet off of a zombies head.
I feel like a kinda stupid simple, band aid fix would be more pack a punch levels and changing the cost scaling. It would be more like 5k -> 10k -> 20k -> 40k. It would increase raw damage of the guns and also not have a totally awful cost to get each pack level.
no one wants bo4 pap back, and doing THAT system would give people bo4 and iw zombies feels
With the current way points are given we would have no way to get that many points. Past round 37 or so I cannot make any points due to cost of ammo.
@John-bn7ux if you can secure 50 kills per ammo restock you're doing ok, the issue is the heavies and manglers take SO much ammo it's always net loss
I want to say thank you for this video and more importantly your approach to this video. I love how you rather than being cynical or negative you took the time and analyzed the problem that you saw and then you looked at it from multiple angles and compared it to other experiences. I think too often now days people in this community see something like the unbalanced high rounds and simply say this sucks BO6 is trash which isn't true. I also really love how you took into account the developers perspective on how they created the game and as a game developer myself I really appreciate this because there isn't enough credit being given to them for what they have tried to do. They really have worked hard to give us a more engaging and fun zombies experience and as you mentioned there definitely are some problems with it currently but I don't think that those problem should completely discredit the good that they have done. I honestly believe that if they can get the balance issue to a better place BO6 overall could stand on a pedestal close to BO3 (because let's face it BO3 die hards will never accept anything is better then BO3) . So Thank you for taking the massive amount of time to truly diagnose the problem and make this video. I hope that the devs see it and take what you are saying into account.
17:10 YES!! Perfect high round equilibrium we need is how it is at round 25 with rampage inducer for a variety of strategies.
as someone who returned after not playing since the real mw2 , i think you are the first youtuber that didnt just spew crap about fake metas and strats for views. thank you. have a sub. also very interesting topic well done with the spreadsheets.
its not the amount of mangles or the zombie speed or damage , the fix is OUR Damage -if we did enough damage no one would have an issue.
Every time you post a video, I’m always so curious to see what you’re talking about because you put out so much good information. It helped me a lot in my zombie life. You’re probably one of my favorite zombie creators out there.
Thank you. Also, the head hit box on heavy armored zombies is completely broken/inconsistent. On top of taking several shots to break the helmet, i can't even get crit hits on them as a reward.
Now I know I wasn’t tripping when i tried to headshot them
when they get close to me it is literally impossible to hit them in the head, I have to back up and aim for the neck or chest and it just counts as a headshot, it is so noticeable.
Yep. Noticed this over and over when I was abusing the boat pile up. Also the fact that so many people would rather sit in a pile up than actually play the game is very telling of how annoying and tedious this version of zombies is.
@ people always used exploit and glitches, it’s not new .. back in the day people were doing it and there was no camo
Another thing I find tedious is how narrow walkways get with so many zombies compared to the hit radius to the mangler cannon blast. I love getting away from a horde of zombies just to get megaclapped by four mangers all shooting at once. And you either have to take the cannon or get eaten by the zombies. Also it feels like the hit radius of zombies gets higher too.
"my guns dont deal dmg past round 30" imagine how'd they'd react in old games struggling with a PAP weapon at round 20.
Lol
Maybe in Bo1 but Bo2 Pap guns lasted till R30, sometimes R40 depending on the map
The only difference is... you know... all the power scaling. 5000 VS 90000 for max pap
@@PatentSleetMax pap is 50k but yeah
What games would that be? Waw is the only one imo and that was legit there first try like chill they got it wrong then and they got it wrong now.
This video is so well edited and researched, I hope it gets brought up by the algorithm.
I just feel like there should be a pack level 4 that cost 100k essence and a red ultra rarity for 10k scrap. Can even make the zombies health step up until round 60 or so. The mangler spawns don't bother me, especially needing 30 for diamond camos, I did 3 smgs diamond in 1 45 round game. The abominations at the higher rounds have way to much health, they arnt hard or even annoying, just bullet sponges.
@@zacbarrett8875 branching off your idea, they should make this new rarity only available after round 50 or 60 so no one is too OP too quickly
Or hear me out just buff the guns a bit lmao although this idea is cool since it’s straight up more content 😂
I would think a slight improvement to damage scaling could solve a lot
@zacbarrett8875 100k is insane when the 3rd pack only cost 30k if there was a 4th pack lvl it should be only 50k thats more than enough and the ultra rare should be 7500 scrap since the legendary is 5000 youre going way over board when it already take mad long just to get scrap n points especially with 4 people
You can one shot abominations
I watched the podcast (great btw), and you talk about how much you enjoyed the Easter egg hunts and how it connects the community, but that the hunt itself is a paradox because it needs to be complicated and unintuitive for it to last, but that turns away players from completing them. Do you think the new directed mode fixes this issue so now Tryarch can go as crazy as they want with the Easter egg?
Whilst I'm not a fan of Double Tap 2.0 returning due to breaking early game balance, I wouldn't mind Double Tap 1.0 returning however.
It could even have a major augment like "Every bullet has a chance to split into two, dealing double damage", because then it could help fully auto weapons whilst leaving other augments available to make Double Tap helpful for other kinds of weapons.
Won't be game breaking in the early rounds wonder fizz doesn't spawn till 25
@@Paralyzed-rm6vcI'd disagree personally.
Even removing it breaking early round balancing I still don't wanna see Double Tap 2.0 return in this game because... we don't need it.
We got the current PAP system and weapon rarity system for a reason, it's the better solution to double tap's weapon effectiveness (and is far better than BO4 making you pack every gun 5 times)
@@TopSuperKickerBO4's PaP is almost as bad as Advanced Warfare's system PaP'ing 5 times is a horrible system. The 3 tier PaP we have now is a little better, but it's not great. However, if you Double Tap 2.0 game breaking for the early game why do we have Pack-a-Punch, Perks or Wonder Weapons? You're argument is "early game balance," but if you're skilled you get Tier 3 PaP before Perks or Armor, which practically does the same thing.
@@TopSuperKickerbut even with the pack a punch and rarity system it’s still not balanced so those systems fixing the issue is not true
Whats wrong with you why take double tap 1 over 2
I remember by the end of cold wars life cycle they made a good change to high rounds, they made the zombie and mini boss levels cap off around 50 so they didn’t get insanely hard to kill. And Cold War to me is still one of my favorite modern zombies experience, maybe eventually they will implement a similar change in the Future and cap the health for this games zombies around 30 instead of 50
13:54 Doughnuts, I love your positivity, but a bullet sponge that fires homing explosive missiles on a game where enemies were not meant to shoot back to the player is not 'beautifully designed'.
I can't believe I'm saying this... but you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! This might be the greatest take I've ever heard! You not only back it up with research, evidence, facts, and logic, but you show passion and care about the game. I truly do believe the Mangler is an amazing enemy, and it's only getting hate for the late round spam. While I will say it can be lazy to reuse the same enemy over and over, it's different when said enemy is well crafted and iconic. We also can't forget that this isn't the only series to reuse the same mid boss/boss enemy. I really think that, like you said, the armored zombies need to have no helmets, and manglers need to have a spawn cap. I'd be OK with having more than 3 TOTAL manglers in one round, but never seeing more than 2 or 3 at a time. They keep things interesting. I also have found a bit of a love-hate relationship with Abominations. I really like how you can feed them frags, thermals, and semtexs to blow off their heads, and even kill them out right by doing this on their last head.
He speaks for all of us, treyarch, please hear us.
Armored zombies, vermins, and parasites are my biggest issues with high rounding
Not wanting double tap back is crazy work no 🧢
Its just not necessary the games been balanced around not having it id say double tap 1 is better than 2 in this game
Thank you donut! I've been waiting for someone to tell them thay went to far. I'm a OG zombies player from ww2 from the beginning and thay have gone into left field with this mangler thing. Thanks again!
I have a few different points I'd like to make as a data scientist.
First of all, thank you for putting together a visualization for difficulty as the rounds progress. I think a visual is really useful in conveying the idea of difficulty in an easy to understand way that isn't strictly qualitative. I personally don't think dps or kills per second are the best way to measure this though. What stuck out the most to me was that in rounds 10-20 you calculated that there would be 15-25 kills per second. Although this is what the dps value would reflect, does it really make sense? For the saug, the faster firing of the two weapons, the default fire rate is 15.15 rounds per second. DPS assumes all damage is being dealt to a zombie but this does not account for overflow. In other words, if a headshot is a one-shot it doesn't matter what the dps is and guns dealing infinite damage will feel the same as a gun dealing the exact damage of the zombies health. This discrepancy could cause the visual to be skewed in certain places by inflating any range where you are dealing more than the maximum health per shot. I think a better value to use here would be bullets per kill (zombie health / damage per bullet rounded up) which could also be divided by the fire rate (in terms of rounds per second) to find a more accurate time to kill. This would still lead us to the same conclusion but the difference between round 15 to round 30+ would likely seem smaller.
Now what do I think could be done to improve the high round gameplay? First of all, I don't think Treyarch balances the game with high rounding as a top priority. The core gameplay loop of zombies is surviving the apocalypose for a period of time and eventually dying once you are overrun. My games usually last somewhere between an 1 and 2 hours which in my opinion is a relatively good balance for the length of a game. Making each game last longer than this fundamentally changes the game. Without playing in an intentionally unfun way (any meta strategy that is fundamentally different from how your average player would play) I think it should be impossible to progress past a certain point. I don't know how controversial that opinion is but I personally think that a 2 hour limit is about what you should be aiming for. I don't think the game should be balanced past a certain point to reinforce this as this is how zombies has always been.
With that said, I think there are definitely improvements that can be made to make the transition to those impossible rounds a little more gradual. I think the most obvious problem is the number of manglers. The gameplay fundamentally changes when you have to dodge multiple ranged attacks at the same time which most players find unfun. The two ways I see to address this would be to either reduce their fire rate in some way or to reduce the number of manglers that are on the map at any given time. This would target the issue of dodging multiple ranged attacks at once, but comes with the consequence of making the game easier which, as stated in the previous paragraph, shouldn't be the goal. As a result, the game would have to be made more difficult in some other way such as increasing mangler health (I think this isn't the best approach since manglers being bullet sponges is already a major complaint), increasing the damage dealt, or in the case of reducing the number of manglers on the map the fire rate could be increased. No matter which route is taken, I think purely nerfing manglers and not making some other aspect of the game harder would be an unfun change that would make the game easier when it does not need to be.
I'd love to hear any other perspectives on the points that I've made this far. I just think that there is a difference between something being unfun and something being difficult which can be easily conflated. The goal should be to die eventually while making it feel like there was something you could have done in that situation to prevent it even if that thing was really hard. I think introducing the health cap was a net negative since it prevents the rounds from getting harder after a certain point and turns the game into "if I can survive round 100 I will do the same thing until round 999 and make it after 200 hours or whatever" which isn't fun for the majority of the playerbase who haven't even spent that much time with the game open.
I think the best "fix" or possible solution would be to add Double Tap but only have it accessible through the wunderfizz on every current map and maps afterwards. This would mean that at round 25 (when the Wunderfizz spawns) if you need that extra damage you can purchase Double Tap. Alternatively even make the Wunderfizz appear even later at round 30 since round 1-30 is already extremely easy and damage only starts to fall off past 30. I'm not saying this would fix high rounds, but Treyarch could do their own testing to see how this works in practice. (even though Treyarch doesn't playtest BO6, evident by the numerous bugs)
Never seen your content before. Excellent video and analysis (just subscribed). I think another issue that contributes to the balance conversation is the points system. 1 kill per second (ignoring non-regular zombies) means you’re burning through ammo, but you only get points per kill rather than per hit like before.
I was super disappointed to realize on my second game that I didn’t have enough points for ammo, but then I remembered wall guns and got excited again. Then I realized it took 2-3 full magazines to kill one armored zombie even with headshots and just quit the game
(Full discretion I mostly enjoy easter eggs and not super high round gameplay due to physical limitations) I feel like I might be the odd one out saying this but I enjoy the difficulty spike in BO6. The last COD I played was CW because of the zombies refresh and that was super accessible for newcomers, being a fair bit easier than previous titles. I rlly like this year's change to zombies spawns, dmg, and training potential, it just keeps me on my toes when just running backwards. That said, I'm not at all opposed to tuning changes in BO6. I could absolutely use some more ammo during later rounds lol 😅
Such a GREAT video. I feel like I'm the only one who really misses Outbreak. I loved having that option. Felt like longer missions and more of an adventure. Then we could jump back into round based and go nuts. More options >>> less options. 5 kills per second also seems to be a sweet spot. Round 30 feels great. Challenging but weapons still feel fairly good.
Dude! I never thought that i needed a Zombies graph, thanks a lot D. Love you ❤️
Really great to see the multiple aspects you show
I love that we have Milo’s whiteboards and Doughnuts graphs. THIS is the class I signed up for. Yall need to collab on his podcast about all of this.
There's a few ways I'd change manglers. Either doing variants, basic ones that don't have the armor on the head and maybe weaker armor on the chest so you get rewarded for getting critical shots on them still, then having the fully armored one we have right now showing up less often, but still here and there. Or when you shoot the charging cannon it would do a little AoE blast around the mangler that stunned other elites nearby with a decently generous radius, giving you the chance to maneuver or chain some cannon destructions and instantly killing zombies in a smaller radius around the mangler. Changes like the latter in particular could keep a similar difficulty ceiling, but give you skillful options to tackle it with.
4:35 this is REALLY cool indeed lol. That graph looks like my experience/level of enjoyment hahahahaha
the main issue isn’t the damage per second, it’s the kills per ammo refill, if you can’t kill manglers you end up net negative with most weapons
Your research and explanation is so clear and easy to understand.I guess you do good work on business too. Thank you for sharing your reserch! :^D
Great video, love the stats! Well done in the collection of it. One thing to mention with Double tap, not only does it double damage output, but it increases DPS by 20%, correct me if I'm wrong but that would increase Kills Per Second by 20%, making the early game overpowered situation even worse than it seemed! But could be really balanced late game
This was your best video yet.
@ Doughnuts no other streamer is talking about these graphs and numbers. You are digging into the components/programming of the game. This is Treyarch developer talk; and congrats on the 99K subscribers.😄
I haven't played a cod since infinite warfare, bought this game the other day and I've been playing a ton of zombies, I'm halfway through my opals and I bought the game 6 days ago.
The main thing that struck out to me immediately when I played my first couple of games was how many things you have in the game just to keep you alive... In bo2 for instance you had jug, monkeys and quick revive (which could only be used 3 or so times on solo), in this game you've got jug, armour, decoy grenades (which can be equipped in your loadout), monkeys, all the scorestreaks make you invulnerable with the exception of the mangler cannon, self revive which can be recrafted over and over again (I believe), aether shroud/ frenzied guard... and tbh all of the field upgrades can get you out of a pinch and then also you have other things that will make you invulnerable which are map dependant, such as the code on nathan in terminus.
There is just so much to keep you alive in spots where you make a mistake and get cornered, it feels like it's impossible to die sometimes, you can practically cycle your way through all of these different methods to get zombies off of you and so the only way the game can make itself difficult is with mangler spam.
I feel like they need to work on that, if you make a mistake and get cornered, you should probably die.
I feel like the struggle begins early on. Salvage doesn't seem to drop enough to be able to get your guns to decent rarity even with a silencer... (Assuming you want to get more than your starter past grey tier.)
Then you run that very fine line of "Do I wanna get perks and stay weak or do I wanna upgrade and have no perks?" I swear I don't recall it being such a struggle to get somewhat stable...
Great video lad keep up the good work how are you doing today
Also wanted to mention that i watched your podcast and saw your face for the first time was making me so happy. Please use your facecam more often😊 its the one thing iam missing in your videos. The rest is perfekt ❤😊
I love your Chanel. You always give a good vibe. Keep it up 🍩
Where you messed up was thinking that call of duty would do a test/ focus group 🤣🤣 love these videos as im a numbers ner.
For my solution I was gonna suggest adding double tap 1.0 perk and having a doubletap 2.0 major augment that doubles damage on armored zombies only. That way the weapon balance isn’t destroyed at lower rounds and at higher rounds the perk helps deal with the annoying armor. But I actually like your solution much better. Making it so that armored zombies aren’t armored at the head seems like a much better solution.
I think the problem with lowing the health cap is the fact that rounds are capped at 250 zombies per round. Lowering the health cap would also drastically change the pace of rounds. As you increase in rounds the idea of them getting longer and longer meant that instead of your focus being on the zombies health increasing it would be on the length of the round(with infinite damage weapons and strats of course). I find my issue right now being that outside of killstreaks there is no infinite damage source, like deadwire or some older wonderweapons. 250 zombies per round and 50ish zombies spawned at once made it that they had to focus on making that short 250 zombies feel challenging instead of spreading it out over sometimes thousands of kills. I can't fully pinpoint why I don't like the idea of always being able to kill with weapons. It might be because then what is the point of wonderweapons, traps, and ammo mods if you can just shoot. I am definitely biased in that I think for high high rounds you should be restricted to those three things. However killstreaks completely ruin that idea. Im yappin at this point but have never put my two cents into a conversation like this. Overall Im enjoying this years zombies much more than I dislike it. just did a round 100 run on terminus and did ee at the end. my only complaint is that I cant train without almost assuredly dying. Both maps high round strats being restrained to camping in a corner so you don't get jumped from behind or using killstreaks kinda sucks. Those are fine for being strats, but I would also like to add training with the wonderweapons, traps without the zombies despawing, and ammo mods being able to actually kill zombies would be good for me. Just a couple more options would be all I want. Also please don't put manglers in any other maps anymore. They have been in like 8 maps now or something crazy like that. Something new. Well done if youput up with reading all that. Happy zombie killing!
Very well done video. I've been playing zombies from the beginning. This is definitely a great game and is certainly more difficult.the manglers are a bit ridiculous. If we could get the armored zombies without the helmets and less manglers in higher rounds I would be so happy.
This is a great video. We'll done.
I personally think the difficulty is great. I was very worried it was going to be too easy.
Every great zombies map has a different strategy for high rounds. My only concern is that BO6 high rounds will be the same regardless of the map, wonderweapon in the specific area until mutant injection, repeat.
If Treyarch can give us one or two more viable options, this game could be great.
The DE gameplay looks so good I miss old zombies so much the element bows were so awesome and the detail in the maps was so good
I’ve learned when training to just ignore the manglers until the end of the round so they are the only thing left. It makes the rounds so much smoother
Best video I ever saw in zombies. Liked & subscribed.
Just relized I'm suffering because of 1 player reached round 50 in code next :(
Off the top of my head double tap being brought back but something more like the below would be great to me.
Double tap:
Base ability - 25% increase to fire rate & bullet penetration.
Major 1 - 25% Increase armor penetration damage.
Major 2 - pack a punch tiers cost 25% less
Major 3 - double weapon damage for 20 seconds when field upgrade is activated.
Minor 1 - weapons obtained from the wall or mystery box earn 10% more essence (icon will glow when holding eligible gun)
Minor 2 - 15% further increase to fire rate
Minor 3 - 20% increase in reserve ammo
I feel like this is way more balanced than just doing 2.0.
First minor is me having abit of fun with the idea of a perk enhancing the use of classic systems
i really hope they are willing to make some of these changes, great video
Variety and balance. Yes please. Thank you for your perspective and insight.
This meta may be a placeholder until we get many more variety of enemy types, it's still a developing game as we speak. I Enjoyed this video, well done!
I’m a huge roguelike enjoyer and there are already some aspects in the game already(augments) so I think it would be a cool idea to have random upgrades so each run feels unique and so we can keep getting stronger. Might have to be its own mode but I think it would make the game more fun.
Zombies players love a long experience, it makes you feel like you set up correctly for the game mode. The devs are too focused on creating a 30-45 min experience. They say it’s for the “casual crowd” but I think it’s simply for server usage. We don’t want to set up from zero every 30 min so we just log off for the day and that makes their online servers receive less elongated traffic.
I agree with everything you've said, including the double tap thing I would say with double tap for them to make it more viable and not just do double damage. Maybe have an augment for it where every third bullet you shoot does a percent-based damage to zombie health so that even if their health keeps scaling upwards until you eventually hit the cap, you'll still be able to chunk the zombies because with double tap it's taking a percentage of their health instead of just doing a flat damage that made sense. Sorry I'm not very good at explaining stuff
Quality content. Good work as usual
The spawn timing is jacked up…. No matter if you kill zombies or not, a couple minutes into the round they’re still popping up… Ammalgums respawning right behind you after they were just 20ft the other direction. This makes getting past round 45 without using WWs and pistols pretty tough…
Your effort in reverse engineering the details of what makes this game tick is immensely impressive. Thank you for being the community zombies mythbuster!
This is an amazing video! Nice work!
Could not agree more with everything you stated here. For me going for the boss fight after round 50 on Terminus for the Dark Ops challenge was the most painful experience as there is no fun at all, after like round 40.
I highly doubt you'll ever see this. But I'd like to have a one-on-one conversation on Bo6 Zombies, perhaps while working or gaming.
Your effort and work here is fantastic and very necessary. I'm glad someone finally got around to reviewing HR in Bo6.
I'd like to get into contact with you and Milo (MrRoflWaffles).
Joey Conway - a friend and coworker of his, and/or perhaps 'Margwa' - both who assist with his content.
We keep talking about it, but I honestly just believe Treyarch doesn’t want high round plays. They want you to complete the EE before round 30 and stop playing, and most casual players won’t be surviving beyond that anyways (don’t believe me? join a public match and see) so they peak the fun and then slowly let you down to gently say “Stop playing”
Love your vids👏👏👏💚💚💚I think with the right augments it's well balanced. Mzc I think is his name had a good vid. Stam augments now almost makes you immuned to manglers blasts imo.
third video to hit my feed you've got my sub, such great content!
Another solution that would work pretty well is adding pap IV and ultra weapon rarity. It would naturally be expensive so you won't get them till at least round 35 which would make it way more balanced then double tap which you can get at round 2. This would give you about 5 kills per second at health cap, with deadshot and armored zombies but not factoring in manglers and ammo mods. I think this is a heathy balance.
The idea of lowering the health cap and mangler count is also good
11:50 thats one of my sour points, that it takes so long to kill zombies in the horde that they spawn new ones behind you and you can get trapped if you aren't careful.
21:40 "Base Jugg" I always forget about augments