ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
- We had a perfectly amiable discussion, me and @Indestructoboy which means he'll probably now be devoured whole by the mob. Poor lil' fella'.
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"See... I can get you what you want, I can. I can get you anything, you just have to talk to me, you have to trust me. You can trust me, 'cause I'm your priest, I'm your shrink... I am your main connection to the switchboard of the soul. I'm the magic man... Santa Claus of the subconscious. You say it, you think it, you can have it."
Lenny Nero, Strange Days
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Ok, colour me surprised. The fact that you both managed to meet on the same day that the opprobrium happened and maintained a civilised discourse is quite heartening - bloody good work.
Yeah. In the TH-cam world of loud personas and clickbaity titles/thumbnails, it's easy to forget that there's an actual person behind all that, who is probably quite different IRL. Nice to see some people still remembering the benefit of a doubt.
Indestructo guy seems more reasonable/measured than he did in his clickbait video. But this does reinforce my determined vow to never play in game stores or at conventions.
Most people are, which is the problem. There's just something about internet discourse which maginifies ideological division.
Two calm and rational sapiens having a conversation and sometimes disagreeing without rancour. The algorithm is going to bury this so deep it’ll next get exposure when the sun swells up to a red giant and strips the crust off the planet. Which is a shame, because dialogue like this is all that stands between us and a boringly dystopian future.
Hahahahhaha.
Sad but SO fucking true.
way to go JIm, showing you are the adult in the room
Imagine a scene, a horror game....3 players...x cards...1 player triggered by violence, 1 by death.... another by supernatural.
Boom! A story about tea n cakes
Tea and cakes that slowly transform your views and personality over the course of days, turning you into a stranger who has your memories, but no longer understands why they ever thought they were important. Boom! Horror's back on the menu!
I'm not saying that any "good" person can work around a group's reasonable requests, I'm saying that a sufficiently evil person can still cause immense psychic distress to a group that is so foolhardy as to think that they can protect themselves from being scared and made to feel bad.
@@bearnaff9387 These people aren't feeling distress, they just wanted the power of the x card and will shut down whatever you try next.
Ginny Di is a public figure that brought the subject up. She is absolutely fair game to talk about.
She didn't bring it up out of the blue. She was one of many who were posting threads after a viral Tweet by a fellow named Nerdcognito.
@@DoubleCritFail And he's a fair game like everyone else.
@@Yugomorph Definitely. It's just weird that Ginny Di has become the epicenter of the Safety Tool debate when *so many* were talking about it that day. Now some assume that she just woke up one day and decided to post about it to -- I dunno, stir up attention or something?
I'm glad that Grim Jim admits she was chosen simply to appease the TH-cam Alrgorithm CTR gods. Unfortunately, some people only read headlines. (Or Essay Titles.)
@@DoubleCritFail Well, she's way more popular than Nerdcognito, so it doesn't surprise me that she got way more attention.
I'm so glad this happened.
I think this elucidates the need for conversations **between** people as opposed to people talking **at** each other as a performance to an audience.
Hurrah for both of you and thank you for restoring a little of my faith in humanity!
This is a great moment. I would love to see more civil conversations like this.
Someone calling for censorship that doesnt know the context surrounding what they were complaining about?
What a shocker!
I really loved this peaceful and respectfull conversation guys, thanks. I was a Jim Grim follower (being more on the right side, but coming from the left), I'll follow Indestructoboy from now. Disagreements and the way we put them in the scene, I guess, is a key to self evolution. I will be happy to be wrong, or to temper my views and take some distance... Even though I am always tempted to be the incarnation of a "side", but I don't fell comfortable in any side at the end... It's kinf of contradictory and chaotic. And @Grim Jim, you're so true talking about our generation's hate for censorship, after the satanic panic and the PMRC debates, either on the music side or on the gaming side. It's frightenig to me to imagine that now people from the left are pretending RPG's can be dangerous for mental health, just like christian conservatives were saying it could lead to suicide. I don't, I can't believe that, simply... It's like, when you go to Brazil and say you're an atheist, they will not condemn you for being one, they just can't figure out how you wouldn't believe in God, they just don't get the concept of atheism. It may be the same for some Gen Z toward our experience and thoughts, excpet they tend to condemn something the cannot conceive. And I don't get it, still, I will never be, but I always will try to find a way to debate respectfully with those I diagree with, as long as they are ready to go on the same way... PEACE & ZANG from SWITZERLAND
Indestructoboy backpeddles on every opinion he has in one stream speed run, interesting to hear at least
He strikes me as a guy who's opinions have been formed by absorbing an echo chamber and not a lot of personal reflection. At least he seems level headed enough to listen to differing opinions when presented.
Yes that was great. Both parties came out of the discussion very well imo. Really interesting in that both parties belong to the same sub-cultures (social media/ TTRPGs), which you would think would guarantee common ground, but the differences are profound and are, I think, being driven by deeply-engrained world-views forged by very different (near incompatible, I think) birth cultures: on the one hand the libertine European, and on the other the conservative American. That any common ground was found at all was a credit to the participants.
A lot of respect to both parties here.
Well done, gentlemen.
Thanks!
As I said elsewhere - "Session Zero" is just a pretentious name for the first session where you only get an hour or so of roleplay in at the end because everyone had to roll up characters and get the campaign background from the DM. It's a really dumb formalization of something that's an inescapably a part of stepping up to the table.
Been playing 40+ years and I have to say calling it Session Zero simply set the expectation we aren’t adventuring yet.
Don’t feel it’s trying to be anything than getting the ball rollinh
@@kevoreilly6557 It is kinda nice to have a formal name for the mostly-null session, but reading about it from folks always leaves me with the impression that they think they invented it and it's How Things Are Done Now.
And they try to make it more than it is.
Great video! Thanks!
He actually showed up. How about that? At least things sound civil so far, which is great to hear.
What's striking to me is that most reasonable people are in near-total agreement about the issues that Safety Tools purport to address, with largely semantic distinctions about the particulars.
Jim nails the fundamental divide at 34:18. Either one accepts that they are responsible for their own well-being, and takes appropriate measures to safeguard it, or one imposes that burden onto other people.
The fact that those who defend the use of Safety Tools will claim to support the former while simultaneously insisting upon the latter shows that this whole thing is a bit of a sham, frankly. It all reeks of Concern Trolling and social engineering under the guise of compassion. Virtue Signalling, in other words.
This was great fellas. I am so sick of egos getting in the way of discourse. When did nearly all Western cultures develop the inability to admit when individuals are wrong? I am wrong all the time, it is how I learn. Also, Grim...I am with you on leaving Inappropriate Characters. I used to watch it some but for the gaming content. It became just a gnashing of teeth about political issues. (Most of which I disagreed with, but this is not the point.) That is their prerogative, so not a slight...it's just not for me. The same issue has popped up with other ttrpg gaming channels. It is getting difficult to find channels that just talk about games. What the fuck has happened? I want to learn about gaming. This is the best hobby in my opinion. Politics has its place but damn, does the real-world version really need to intrude on my escapism? It's like we are playing a political campaign of the Cypher System in real life lol. To each their own but for my precious time I want to support creators and publishers that are about gaming. I read other books for my political theory education. This said, this was a great discussion and I am glad you had it. I will continue to watch Grim Jim for the reviews and discussion of games baby! Thanks for the content.
Horrible things happen in myth, history and fiction.
The beginning almost sounds like Indistructoboy seems a little nervous & scared as if he was not entirely sure how to deal with this type of situation.
Yeah, but he turned up - want better than the original scene on the Untouchables
Look at how easy it is for two individuals to have a rational discussion on the topic of sensitive issues. Seems to me this is a good example of exactly how anyone with things they don't want in a TTRPG game their involved in can discuss it with their GM - no safety tool involved, just words.
Wow very surprised, glad things went civil.
This has always been an option, I've always been open to talk to anyone.
@PostmortemVideo, and that is what keeps me going to your channel. You are willing to share your opinion without feeling the need to impose upon other people. It shows good character on your part.
Interesting conversation....
It is almost like the indestructoboy here is an entirely different person than he is in other spaces. A totally different persona...
Moral busy-bodies often shrivel up when taken to task for their behavior
It's conversations like this that will only help others in the long run.
I gotta' give IB props for being very reasonable.
Some people should just stay home & play video games.
This conversation was a great path to take.
I hope to earn your subscription in return Jim. Thank you.
I love what you said Jim. Leave everyone alone to play their own game. Stop witch hunting.
This is how civilised, intelligent, people (who believe in free speech) should discuss and trade ideas about things. Especially when they disagree.
More fecking dialogues and fewer ego-driven echo chambers, everyone, please.
Nah, let's just mindlessly mob random sides of every argument and try to deplatform them, ban them, get them fired, and make stuff up to jerk ourselves off bc it makes us feel better to destroy everything good like demented necropheliacs!
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - and that's great bc I am so bitter and angry at the world!!!!!
/s
Grim, you keep showing such class.
I might have been more surprised to see that Zelensky and Putin had hand a conversation - but not by much
I think what you and DB is exceptional - did you see eye to eye, of course not, but you have a much better understanding of the issue and each other
Seriously. I hope this opens the door to more dialogue across our tiny hobby
What a wonderful show of respect by you both
I liked the term Session Zero as a signal that we likely wouldn’t be playing in this session.
So, this tended to be a sit down in a pub for a couple of hours to discuss
A) game system - 90% of time homebrew D&D, occasionally CoC or in recent years maybe Kult - but as the perpetual DM I brought the proposal to the table
2) what’s the theme? Standard party, bunch of thieves, nuns on the run … just overall what “story” and “backdrop” does it feel like
3) who wants to play what type of character - generally - so what will be the strengths weaknesses of the group; general rules around race and background discussed - world/region attitude to said (what you can expect, what story obstacles could occur) - how’s magic handles …. Other questions
4) go home and send me your character - see you next week
Through the week email/text for clarification
Now, new people joining the group we haven’t played with before, I’ll do a sit down and talk about some of the things more common to session 0 and the existing group dynamic
Not sure if choosing the profile pic with the eye patch was intentional but it certainly brings a nice synergy to the piece.
Such a constructive discussion. Good on both of you. Maybe it will start a trend against the usual bullshit.
Some of the arguments go back to things like bakeries not making cakes for same sex marriages. It really isn't you do you, because when you do you do you, people get upset. The flip side of this is when you have two same sex characters showing affection for each other. Again, you can have people getting upset over something that is not indecent. People get upset if Snow White has a romantic relationship with Prince Charming. There's nothing indecent about that, either. It's all G rated. People are fine with bear nookie in Baldur's Gate 3 or they're not. You can't reduce content to the lowest common denominator because you might offend someone. It's too limiting for a creative hobby.
This was amazing. A win for civil discourse!
Finally proof that it's possible for two people with different opinions to have a civilised rational conversation and agree to respect if not accept those opinions. Kudos to you both
Ginny D is adorable, smart, funny, and often interesting. But she can be _wrong_
Cringe...
Excellent! We need more rational discourse
I don't think I've ever seen an actual productive conversation on the subject of "cancel culture" until now
One major problem here is a matter of people speaking past one another. For many people, anything where you try to make your friends comfortable and be empathetic they consider a matter of safety tools. For others, they have a more narrow definition of safety tools and think of particular and specific things, some of which might not be a fit for every table. So from the former's perspective, why wouldn't you care about your friends? And from the latter's perspective, why would you be so imperious about imposing things on my friends that don't fit or make sense then villify us for being different than you? The jerks who either villify everyone when they don't understand them, or villify people because they have special mechanisms to care for their friends, they make it worse and harder to have a conversation. I really appreciate you both being willing to talk, that was really great.
Nice one. Good substantive discussion.
This is some oldskool style content, enjoyed it!
Holy crap -- actual adults having an actual conversation? People admitting where they might have over reached? People being gracious about it? Give and take? You're not the internet! What have you done with the internet?!
:) Great to see this discussion play out -- I enjoy the videos you each put out, so I was surprised to see this get a little sharp...and it makes my jaded cold heart glimmer a little to see you having a real discussion about it.
I play a lot of games from an LFG situation where you never know who might be getting involved -- in that sense a session zero makes sense just to be sure everyone understands. But for my table I just say "If it could happen in a 1980s swords & sorcery movie, it could happen here. The world is dangerous...spiders and snakes, freezing to death or immolated by a dragon, falling from a perilous height or being eaten alive. If any of that would cause so much discomfort that you wouldn't be able to continue - then this isn't the table for you.".
So far, not a single person has backed away
Anyway, thanks both of you for being adults on the internet. It's a rare enough treat.
I posted my comment in the followup video. All great on both sides. Rabks up there with Joe Rogan/Lex Friedman podcasts
So I don't agree with you on a lot Grim, and while I appreciate a lot of your gaming takes (which I absolutely did here as well), I think Indestructoboy was very disingenuous and not acting honestly. Especially in the discussion about Coyote and Crow and his sudden disclaimer "We're having a conversation, but that doesn't mean we endorse everything the other says" was horrible and underhanded.
I appreciate you, even if I disagree with you, and if not for you I would want the time back I spent listening to the other side. Regardless, keep up the good work.
(For the record, I never heard of you until you showed up on the Legion of Myth RPG Die Gest to talk about your book.)
> 38:08 or not someone is friends you know like you always hear that I'm friends with a black guy or like my wife is Asian or whatever you want to say um it doesn't really matter whenever they are throwing that hate or that racism at someone else then it gives them a free pass to like because well my wife is whatever
... erm. "whenever they are throwing that hate or that racism at someone else".
Doesn't that pre-suppose that Max&co. were indeed throwing hate and racism?
I'm hoping my memory hasn't failed me here; I hadn't gotten to yet watch the whole of their takedown-of-Asians-Represent-takedown-of-Oriental-Adventures, but wasn't Max's key argument that Daniel Kwan's Canadian-born-and-bred demographic background almost as validly-Asiatic as the authors of the original "Oriental Adventures"? And later, that the "more authentic" Kwan adventures were on pretty much the same cultural-representation quality level as... the original OA?
Which gives the impression that letting Indestructoboy calling Kwan and his colleagues "absolute sweethearts" and characterising Max's response as "racial slurs" is right up there with... well, the "chuds ginnygate" video still being up on Indestructoboy's channel even after the "clearing the air" video. Even after saying in this video that it might've been unfair of him to "lump" Grim Jim with Max... a) that video's still up there. b) I'm really not prepared to buy Indestructoboy's characterisation. O Grim, you weren't able to comment on the point, I heard that, I accept that.
But unless I'm missing something - completely possible, but - I'm thinking there's a hint of _Eau de State Of Denmark_ going on in some of this response.
I didn't know enough about the situation to comment.
@@PostmortemVideo
> O Grim, you weren't able to comment on the point, I heard that, I accept that.
I know. That's fine. In case it's not obvious yet, you're about the last person on TH-cam I'd accuse of being unreasonable.
I think Matt Dillahunty's logic and cognition are *fantastic* but I also know how he sometimes comes across (under provocation). And yet, I'd still call you the evidently more reasonable one.
I *still* haven't finished this video (there's some *amazing* garbage going down at work today). At this point, I might call in sick tomorrow and if so, watch this whole thing again start to finish tomorrow. I'm constantly torn between "quick get a point mentioned and edit later" versus "write everything first in a text editor and then post it all here".
But the thing I commented on seemed the worst part, a comment on Indestructoboy's part that I think needs a hell of a lot more investigation because it's unfair. For... all of the reasons mentioned earlier.
I don't know how well you remember and profile your various commenters in your audience. I'm telling you right now, you're the last goshdarned person on the whole of TH-cam I can in any way recall now I would ever consider unreasonable or unfair.
@@PostmortemVideo
"blockchain"
... *surely that is not what that word means what the hell now*
Nice to see two people talking like adults. Not enough of this these days.
Luv how he BEGRUDGINGLY tries to walk back the "in defense of rape" accusation - anybody with an IOTA of IQ could work out what you were getting at - of course, didn't read the article.
This troll was looking for clicks and now apologising - same old, same old - I'm really "good", didn't realise AFTER THE DAMAGE WAS DONE, not my fault, really their fault (for disagreeing with me).
Nuff said. No positive thoughts for the "virtue signalling / card carrying" (geez, where in history as that been seen before?) IDB - may he walk in front of the "proverbial".
Any threats did not come from LoM - if idiots that follow them do so, not from direction of those sites. Do you not understand that? - can you (IDB) control the internet - no!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck GJ!!
He just let his emotions run wild but to carry water for all his friends on Twitter he can't whole sale take it back for not reading it or just lumping him in with "the bad people".
0:40 So can someone tell me which cartoonish butt pirate on screen is which? 😜
This sounds like a struggle session and it's hard to listen to. You should have left the left once you saw how they embraced censorship, Jim.
The Left, doesn't. Whatever this new thing is, does.
58:40 I lived in the “Bible belt” where most of the players in my high school AD&D group (1983-86) were Southern Baptists. One was a preacher’s kid. My own church (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) is extremely conservative and they had no problem with Dungeon & Dragons. Rather, they were anti-Prohibition a hundred years ago. The Satanic Panic really wasn’t a thing here.
"People go looking for something to be upset about (on racism)"
Did you forget the context of the conversation was someone calling someone a racial slur with malicious intent? If that isn't clearly and obvious racism the what is?
As I believe I said, those other people can speak for themselves and I didn't watch those sections. That said the mere appearance of a racial slur isn't necessarily meaningful - one might be singing along to a rap song or other contexts. So it's not a matter of forgetting, but a matter of not knowing. I believe Max has replied to the charge various places.
@@PostmortemVideo Well the context was saying "Just because they've got little gook eyes doesn't mean they're fucking asian". It was clear from what Indestructoboy said that this was a case of targeting someone with a racial slur, not just saying one in some context.
Your response was to a far more ambiguous set of facts than the one you were presented with and it felt disingenous and evasive to avoid facing that someone you like personally might have done something contemptable.
Like I said, I didn't watch that bit and that's for Max etc to defend themselves on. I am not responsible for what anyone else says or does. I suggest you watch Max's comments on this, or ask him yourself.
@@PostmortemVideo I appreicate that, I'm just noting that if you don't know the details it's probably best to not use it as a jumping off point to segway into how people get offended over nothing.
I would reverse the issue, people getting upset over nothing is why more serious things slip through. That's the whole point of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.