Another great video! I’ve been playing about with my helix DSP mini mk2 and the PC-Tool software for a few weeks. I’ve been using the automatic time delay system using a measurement mic on distance mode. I’ve noticed it always adjusts the volume of each speaker which I hate. I started again with each speaker db levelled perfectly. I tried the delay mode and it’s brilliant! I can still hear my nearby speaker and the sound doesn’t die off, like it would if the volume was decreased. I’ve also bought the EMMA download and the centre seems just in front of me. The biggest difference is with the sub in the boot. The volume of it has increased dramatically now it's time aligned with the other speakers. Love it! Thank you!
Wow, thanks for doing this. One great additional video to follow up would be to look at what the impulse response looks like after you made the manual adjustments to get the image perfectly centered on the dash.
Another method you should test and compare one day, it's the test tone method at crossover point. I seen that from another TH-camr and I gave it a try, I was surprised how quick it is to do and and well it worked, the result was better that Helix's auto-TA or bare measurement. I didn't try the full impulse response and REW method though.
I struggled with this for a long time. whether to adjust levels, or time to move things. For a long while, I thought it was a combination of both. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that all timing and phase is "locked in" to the recording. If you want maximum depth and focus, timing really is a set position. You can gain artificial width with some phasing, but you will sacrifice other things. Of course, anything that tweaks the signal will change phase (crossovers especially) and is a good idea to revisit delays after driver tunings. Always a back and forth. Also, I could be wrong about all of this. lol.
A long time ago, when I first did a tune, I read a method with using white noise that works so well. You set based on tape measure, then adjusted in driver pairs the distance/delay of one driver and you could just hear when it was centered. I'll try and find it. Was an old guide by some American guy I think. All over the forums.
If i may suggest, read the Smaart V8 guide. In chapter 6 under "phase response" and "comparing phase traces" you might find interesting things :) From that information, my calculation is, that time delay is kinda fix thing as the distances between the speakers and ear. So if you find the right delay with IR it should be fix, even if you change crossover slope, point, whatever. Because you phisically did'nt move the speakers away, just change the phase trace. After IR delay measure you should play with phase, in Helix software in the Time tab over the delay sliders. For me it gives a very good image. Now i'm try to figure out where should i put the mic, because from my opinion, center of the head isn't the best option. With that preset i need to lay my head back about 5-8cm to get the stage at proper eye level, focused center and wider edges. I think the right mic position is varies by the speaker placement, so i think it won't be a standard that everybody can use. Hope it helps somewhat to you :)
Hey bud. Now we both have different methods in using holm, but I feel once the holm impulse makes it’s final measurement, the drivers are set, but if the attenuation is louder than the other drivers, imaging would tend to drift, so I’d suggest that you use an SPL meter and use the left side as reference so the right side db would match the left side and the center would come spot on. Normally to fix the TA some more, open sound meter impulse is my friend to finalize the time alignment (group your drivers to adjust) and it gets really focused.
Time alignment is a do once then forget thing. Time alignment will not change when changing crossovers as long as the drivers stay in place. What changes is the relative phase between drivers, but this is not corrected with time alignment. When you set your time alignment initially, then do the output filters with crossovers and then redo time alignment to align phase back in the crossover you put the passbands of the speakers out of time again. You can hear that with instruments which fundamental and harmonic frequencies are spread over different drivers like midbass and midrange. If you delay the midbass f.e. to get the phase correct in the crossover to the midrange the fundamental frequency will arrive the amount of additional time delay later than the harmonics that are played by the midrange driver. So never do that except maybe for sub to front integration as time alignment based on pulses, noise or any other means is inherently inaccurate for subwoofers due to missing high frequency content. After that you move the center image with relative volume between left and right. In addition the center is not in the center of the car, but in the center beween left and right. So if your left and right boundaries are left and right a-pillars, the center should be a tad to the left/right (depending on where the steering wheel is) to the rearview mirror as you sit offcenter and look at the center from the side. ;)
One thing to remember is that is the soundstage is past the windscreen and over the bonnet (hood) then from the drivers seat the center should not be the center of the dash, it should be slightly towards the driver. This will all depend on how 'forward' your sound stage is.
Very interesting. I'm wondering why he's always pointing towards the center of dash the when shouldn't the center of the image be for the driver looking directly forward? I would prefer for it to be right in front of me while looking forward while driving. Are there technical reasons why people are trying to put the image in the center of the dash or is it a taste preference?
@@TheCohesiveGarage Some people do try to tune to put the 'center' directly in front of the steering wheel, however it is problematic due to the increased difference in distance from the 'center' to the speakers on each side, the driver side speaker will be extremely close to the 'center' but the passenger side will be a much larger distance away. You would need a huge amount of delay on the the speaker close to the driver, to virtually place it way outside of that side of the vehicle.
@@TheCohesiveGarage the centre has no relation to the speaker position, it also should not be in front of the driver… if it is the stage has some big issues! First let’s identify where the left and right of stage are… put a bit of tape on the screen or mark it with perm marker Literally listen to music with the left side muted and mark where the right stage boundary is Then repeat for the right side muted and mark where the left sounds like to your brain Now you have two marks… now literally measure halfway between the two… that is where centre should be… not the centre of the car or between the speakers… but perfectly between where your brain puts left and right 👍🏼
@@chriscuthbertson the stage should be exactly as I’ve described above… work out where left and right should be and then perfectly between them is where the centre should be… it doesn’t matter how deep or wide the stage is… the centre of the car has zero relevance to the centre of stage, where your brain puts left and right is what decides what’s correct 👍🏼
@@chriscuthbertson also delaying a driver doesn’t put it further outside the car… not sure where you get that ‘fact’ from… that is 110% not how ya works…
Great thorough walkthrough of your process. I have the UMIK-1 as well. How did you get the clicky sound to play over the speakers directly from the PC Tool? Does the Helix do that via the USB cable that the PC Tool uses? I don't have that Helix controller you are using in your dash.
When you install the Helix DSP PC tool, it puts a folder in your PC where you have the audio files, one of them is the "clicky sound". I have that file on my phone and play it as if playing any music content. If you have a HU, just put that file on a flash drive and play on repeat.
Is it possible to do impulse response with UMIK-1 and REW? I saw a post on diyma on doing exactly that but my DSP doesn't support those output routings (from Left to Right and vice versa). Also saw the loopback method but it seemed fairly complicated for beginner. Any suggestion?
Quick question on mic position on the headrest. I see in this video you’re pointing them upwards. Whereas other videos you are pointing them forward. Which should I use? Also should you use the 0deg calibration or 90deg calibration for each? Thank you.
When making measurements to set delays between the speaker and the listening point, should the measurements be taken from the grille to the listening point? or would it be more correct to remove the grilles and take measurements from the listening point to the base of the speaker cone without the grille?
You're rocking an old DSP Tool (v4?) and maybe an old Jazzi's tool also? The Jazzi update earlier this year was awesome, AudioGal took over the project and added a bunch of awesome features, like being able to compare 3 house curves against eachother at a time, ability to add SPL to your curves before exporting, a new Jazzi's curve 2.0, bunch of awesome stuff! Also the option to export your curves as .atref files, so you can export directly into the Helix RTA, if you wanna do it that way. The time alignment page is the same as the old one tho, so you may already have it up to date 😅. Why the old helix tool tho? And what do you think is holding the ATM back from being acoustically correct, like AF says it should be? I have also had very hit-or-miss results using it,both with digital and analog inputs
The DSP PC tool works with certain orocessors only. Yhe new ine v5 wirks only with the new ACO based DSPs. I have an old processos so I am stuck with the old software.
@@WBG123098 ATM uses an algorithm of some sort. I guess it mignt have something to do with the fact that the program doesn't allow to choose any speaker as refference, but only the midbass drivers. Iny car, the right midbass is not the closest driver.
@@RAW-CAt ah now that is some interesting insight. I didn't realize it only chose midbass. So playing with the channel labels in IO may yield better results? My Left wideband and left mid are close, distance to speaker the mid is closest but if you measure off the windshield (wideband is firing into it) then that part of the windshield is closest. I'm not sure which is correct to determine TA, but I know ATM is consistently off. Also didn't know why I always had to run my sub with no filters and gains all the way up, while cranking the volume, just to get ATM to register it's chirp, wish Audiotec Fischer had something about that in their ATM webpage... seems it's best to use ATM for the front stage+rears then add in the sub manually
I've read somewhere that doing IR or auto TA with a usb microphone like the UMIK-1 is difficult because of the internal clock mismatch that happens between microphone and the computer. This may be why the helix software was off by so much.
So with time alignment is how you can get the car tuned to have a surround sound affect if you want. cause i want all my passengers to be able to hear the full sound from all areas of the car.
@@RAW-CAt my car comes stock with a center channel in the dash so if I get that on a DSP it can be done ? I'm looking to get a helix V eight soon or a audison m8 ik either way the DSP alone will make it sound better than just amp and crossovers.
Hi all, ultra noob question 🤓 How do you Time align in a Musway DSP a 2 ways system with a passive crossover. Tweets are in the dash, mids are at the bottom of the doors. I guess that the answer is « you can’t » …. So is there a less bad solution, tape measure from the tweets, the mids, in the midle ? Thanks for All your videos, i am learning à lot 😀
When time aligning passives, you need to measure distance to the woofers. If you want to shoft the center image, you can use a shelf filter fo controll the tweeter level.
@@RAW-CAt do you know where I can find it. I am using PC-tool v4 with p6 mk2? Or am I misunderstanding your response? Thanks for responding. Loving the content
@@RAW-CAt if, for example, I use the built-in amp of the DSP along with an additional amp for more channels, will the processing time of the additional amp be audible?
when your finish 5 tracks - go to MOVING track))).. and spend more time that all instrumeng should moving in 1 line..)) from begin cup 500Hz. checking your stage.. And always not straight - if make Alignment by impulse method.... need phase methods with midrange
Well in the car you are NOT in the middle between speakers. If the TA and levels are correct the sound will come from the center between the physical speaker location - the center of the dash.
![แฉ [2/4] 11 ก.ค. 67 ‘ขวัญ อุษามณี’ เผยความจริง 16 ปีที่แล้วเกิดอะไรขึ้น? | GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/K4pXnUiObbk/mqdefault.jpg)
What a legend 2 mics 2 laptop 2 everything not mucking around 😂
Another great video! I’ve been playing about with my helix DSP mini mk2 and the PC-Tool software for a few weeks. I’ve been using the automatic time delay system using a measurement mic on distance mode. I’ve noticed it always adjusts the volume of each speaker which I hate. I started again with each speaker db levelled perfectly. I tried the delay mode and it’s brilliant! I can still hear my nearby speaker and the sound doesn’t die off, like it would if the volume was decreased. I’ve also bought the EMMA download and the centre seems just in front of me. The biggest difference is with the sub in the boot. The volume of it has increased dramatically now it's time aligned with the other speakers. Love it! Thank you!
Looks like I need to get a hold of those EMMA tracks.
Thanks for another great video.
Wow, thanks for doing this. One great additional video to follow up would be to look at what the impulse response looks like after you made the manual adjustments to get the image perfectly centered on the dash.
Nice! Well done! Great test and comparisons. Thank you
Bass guitar 50-170
Guitar 200-350
gong 500 and 1350
cowbell 700
cymbal 2500 and 6k
Hello! I just want to say, I really appreciated your videos, very helpful
Especially this one, Thanks!
Another method you should test and compare one day, it's the test tone method at crossover point. I seen that from another TH-camr and I gave it a try, I was surprised how quick it is to do and and well it worked, the result was better that Helix's auto-TA or bare measurement. I didn't try the full impulse response and REW method though.
I struggled with this for a long time. whether to adjust levels, or time to move things. For a long while, I thought it was a combination of both. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that all timing and phase is "locked in" to the recording. If you want maximum depth and focus, timing really is a set position. You can gain artificial width with some phasing, but you will sacrifice other things. Of course, anything that tweaks the signal will change phase (crossovers especially) and is a good idea to revisit delays after driver tunings. Always a back and forth. Also, I could be wrong about all of this. lol.
A long time ago, when I first did a tune, I read a method with using white noise that works so well. You set based on tape measure, then adjusted in driver pairs the distance/delay of one driver and you could just hear when it was centered. I'll try and find it. Was an old guide by some American guy I think. All over the forums.
Yeah, same principle. I just use possitioning tracks instead of noise - more plesant for the ears😉
If i may suggest, read the Smaart V8 guide. In chapter 6 under "phase response" and "comparing phase traces" you might find interesting things :) From that information, my calculation is, that time delay is kinda fix thing as the distances between the speakers and ear. So if you find the right delay with IR it should be fix, even if you change crossover slope, point, whatever. Because you phisically did'nt move the speakers away, just change the phase trace. After IR delay measure you should play with phase, in Helix software in the Time tab over the delay sliders. For me it gives a very good image. Now i'm try to figure out where should i put the mic, because from my opinion, center of the head isn't the best option. With that preset i need to lay my head back about 5-8cm to get the stage at proper eye level, focused center and wider edges. I think the right mic position is varies by the speaker placement, so i think it won't be a standard that everybody can use. Hope it helps somewhat to you :)
Nice Sir, very neat and clear explain video tank u so much👌🙏🙏🙏
Another fucking excellent video! Thanks!
One of the reasons I'm planing on going tweeterless is so there are less channels to time align.
Hey bud. Now we both have different methods in using holm, but I feel once the holm impulse makes it’s final measurement, the drivers are set, but if the attenuation is louder than the other drivers, imaging would tend to drift, so I’d suggest that you use an SPL meter and use the left side as reference so the right side db would match the left side and the center would come spot on.
Normally to fix the TA some more, open sound meter impulse is my friend to finalize the time alignment (group your drivers to adjust) and it gets really focused.
He has set the eq before doing this so all drivers are level matched already at the listening position…
HELLO LOVELY PEOPLE
Time alignment is a do once then forget thing.
Time alignment will not change when changing crossovers as long as the drivers stay in place.
What changes is the relative phase between drivers, but this is not corrected with time alignment.
When you set your time alignment initially, then do the output filters with crossovers and then redo time alignment to align phase back in the crossover you put the passbands of the speakers out of time again.
You can hear that with instruments which fundamental and harmonic frequencies are spread over different drivers like midbass and midrange.
If you delay the midbass f.e. to get the phase correct in the crossover to the midrange the fundamental frequency will arrive the amount of additional time delay later than the harmonics that are played by the midrange driver. So never do that except maybe for sub to front integration as time alignment based on pulses, noise or any other means is inherently inaccurate for subwoofers due to missing high frequency content.
After that you move the center image with relative volume between left and right.
In addition the center is not in the center of the car, but in the center beween left and right. So if your left and right boundaries are left and right a-pillars, the center should be a tad to the left/right (depending on where the steering wheel is) to the rearview mirror as you sit offcenter and look at the center from the side. ;)
One thing to remember is that is the soundstage is past the windscreen and over the bonnet (hood) then from the drivers seat the center should not be the center of the dash, it should be slightly towards the driver. This will all depend on how 'forward' your sound stage is.
Very interesting. I'm wondering why he's always pointing towards the center of dash the when shouldn't the center of the image be for the driver looking directly forward? I would prefer for it to be right in front of me while looking forward while driving. Are there technical reasons why people are trying to put the image in the center of the dash or is it a taste preference?
@@TheCohesiveGarage Some people do try to tune to put the 'center' directly in front of the steering wheel, however it is problematic due to the increased difference in distance from the 'center' to the speakers on each side, the driver side speaker will be extremely close to the 'center' but the passenger side will be a much larger distance away. You would need a huge amount of delay on the the speaker close to the driver, to virtually place it way outside of that side of the vehicle.
@@TheCohesiveGarage the centre has no relation to the speaker position, it also should not be in front of the driver… if it is the stage has some big issues!
First let’s identify where the left and right of stage are… put a bit of tape on the screen or mark it with perm marker
Literally listen to music with the left side muted and mark where the right stage boundary is
Then repeat for the right side muted and mark where the left sounds like to your brain
Now you have two marks… now literally measure halfway between the two… that is where centre should be… not the centre of the car or between the speakers… but perfectly between where your brain puts left and right 👍🏼
@@chriscuthbertson the stage should be exactly as I’ve described above… work out where left and right should be and then perfectly between them is where the centre should be… it doesn’t matter how deep or wide the stage is… the centre of the car has zero relevance to the centre of stage, where your brain puts left and right is what decides what’s correct 👍🏼
@@chriscuthbertson also delaying a driver doesn’t put it further outside the car… not sure where you get that ‘fact’ from… that is 110% not how ya works…
if i have to choose between perfect timing (initial impulse ) or perfect phase alignment , what should i do ?
Great thorough walkthrough of your process. I have the UMIK-1 as well. How did you get the clicky sound to play over the speakers directly from the PC Tool? Does the Helix do that via the USB cable that the PC Tool uses? I don't have that Helix controller you are using in your dash.
When you install the Helix DSP PC tool, it puts a folder in your PC where you have the audio files, one of them is the "clicky sound". I have that file on my phone and play it as if playing any music content. If you have a HU, just put that file on a flash drive and play on repeat.
@@RAW-CAt thanks for your explanation!
Good
Is it possible to do impulse response with UMIK-1 and REW? I saw a post on diyma on doing exactly that but my DSP doesn't support those output routings (from Left to Right and vice versa). Also saw the loopback method but it seemed fairly complicated for beginner. Any suggestion?
It is possible to do IR with Umik and REW. In our group "RTA in cars" there is a multi page guide for that.
@@RAW-CAt where can I find this group?
@@WhiteSNLOL on facebook👍
Quick question on mic position on the headrest. I see in this video you’re pointing them upwards. Whereas other videos you are pointing them forward. Which should I use? Also should you use the 0deg calibration or 90deg calibration for each? Thank you.
Doesn't matter much. On axis Vs 90deg response changes only at the very top end, like 10kHz and above. For TA that does not matter.
@@RAW-CAt Thank you
When making measurements to set delays between the speaker and the listening point, should the measurements be taken from the grille to the listening point? or would it be more correct to remove the grilles and take measurements from the listening point to the base of the speaker cone without the grille?
Ideally the distance should be measured from the voice coil. Measure up to the grille and add some.
Which TA IS ACCURATE
Do you do this with XOs enabled or disabled. I get much different results with enabled vs disabled.
Time alignment has to be done after XO and EQ.
You're rocking an old DSP Tool (v4?) and maybe an old Jazzi's tool also? The Jazzi update earlier this year was awesome, AudioGal took over the project and added a bunch of awesome features, like being able to compare 3 house curves against eachother at a time, ability to add SPL to your curves before exporting, a new Jazzi's curve 2.0, bunch of awesome stuff! Also the option to export your curves as .atref files, so you can export directly into the Helix RTA, if you wanna do it that way. The time alignment page is the same as the old one tho, so you may already have it up to date 😅. Why the old helix tool tho?
And what do you think is holding the ATM back from being acoustically correct, like AF says it should be? I have also had very hit-or-miss results using it,both with digital and analog inputs
The DSP PC tool works with certain orocessors only. Yhe new ine v5 wirks only with the new ACO based DSPs. I have an old processos so I am stuck with the old software.
@@RAW-CAt any idea about why the ATM doesn't set good TA?
@@WBG123098 ATM uses an algorithm of some sort. I guess it mignt have something to do with the fact that the program doesn't allow to choose any speaker as refference, but only the midbass drivers. Iny car, the right midbass is not the closest driver.
@@RAW-CAt ah now that is some interesting insight. I didn't realize it only chose midbass. So playing with the channel labels in IO may yield better results? My Left wideband and left mid are close, distance to speaker the mid is closest but if you measure off the windshield (wideband is firing into it) then that part of the windshield is closest. I'm not sure which is correct to determine TA, but I know ATM is consistently off. Also didn't know why I always had to run my sub with no filters and gains all the way up, while cranking the volume, just to get ATM to register it's chirp, wish Audiotec Fischer had something about that in their ATM webpage... seems it's best to use ATM for the front stage+rears then add in the sub manually
if phases all in one line and maximum linear.. if all 5 trackes in one position. better reduce volume of right channel to get Center in Center.
Nice video on alignment. Which is this rta software you are using ?
REW - Room EQ Wizzard.
@@RAW-CAt Thank you for the reply.
I've read somewhere that doing IR or auto TA with a usb microphone like the UMIK-1 is difficult because of the internal clock mismatch that happens between microphone and the computer. This may be why the helix software was off by so much.
That is why it uses a constant reference speaker. That way the clock mismatch is not a factor.
@@gonzoe123 ahh makes sense thank you for clearing this up for me.
So with time alignment is how you can get the car tuned to have a surround sound affect if you want. cause i want all my passengers to be able to hear the full sound from all areas of the car.
That is impossible without a center channel.
@@RAW-CAt my car comes stock with a center channel in the dash so if I get that on a DSP it can be done ? I'm looking to get a helix V eight soon or a audison m8 ik either way the DSP alone will make it sound better than just amp and crossovers.
Is it possible to get the Emma Disk or do you have to sign up to get the files
EMMA disk is being sold online at their website.
Hi all, ultra noob question 🤓
How do you Time align in a Musway DSP a 2 ways system with a passive crossover. Tweets are in the dash, mids are at the bottom of the doors. I guess that the answer is « you can’t » ….
So is there a less bad solution, tape measure from the tweets, the mids, in the midle ?
Thanks for All your videos, i am learning à lot 😀
When time aligning passives, you need to measure distance to the woofers. If you want to shoft the center image, you can use a shelf filter fo controll the tweeter level.
Thanks a lot 😊
Please do allpass time tutorial 😊
Is there a link to the sound file you were using that ran through the different frequencies/sounds? Can you post it please?
Each program has a file of its own.
@@RAW-CAt do you know where I can find it. I am using PC-tool v4 with p6 mk2? Or am I misunderstanding your response? Thanks for responding. Loving the content
@@stiehl8455 in this video I used different software to measure the TA. Are you asking about Helix automatic TA? Or about REW? Or HolmImpulse?
No sir, just the sound file you were using to do the ear testing. With the cowbell , chimes and said center
@@stiehl8455 those are emma tracks, you can find them to buy and download on official emma website.
The automatic tuned always made sound bad .dnt know why they do or😊
Hi, how do I get this EMMA sound check tracks files for free or have to pay and get it.
Find me on FB and I will be able to help you out.
@@RAW-CAt okay, on RTA group right.
Bisakah saya mendapatkan software helix
Alpine 0850 dsp how to alien phase because option not there
You don't. Get a different DSP.
Why not use Smaart Application?
Smaart cost as much as my car😬
the problem with distances is that if you use more that one amp it will not compensate for the difference in electronic delay
Electronic delay is nothing as electricity moves at the speed of light. There might be some phase misalignment, but TA is not an issue
@@RAW-CAt
if, for example, I use the built-in amp of the DSP along with an additional amp for more channels, will the processing time of the additional amp be audible?
@@Motymott99 no.
when your finish 5 tracks - go to MOVING track))).. and spend more time that all instrumeng should moving in 1 line..)) from begin cup 500Hz. checking your stage..
And always not straight - if make Alignment by impulse method.... need phase methods with midrange
If the time alignment is correct, the soud come in front of you, as if you are right in the middle of the speakers, not from de center of the car.
Well in the car you are NOT in the middle between speakers. If the TA and levels are correct the sound will come from the center between the physical speaker location - the center of the dash.
How do you count this American friends 😂 their system is whack no offence