Good video, I would love to see more Mister stuff from you. Especially some comparison between emulation options and FPGA. RasPi/Android/PC emulators vs Mister. For people who have never had the chance to play on real hardware, its hard to explain how sometimes emulators feel very different than the original. I still love emulators, but it's great to have FPGA available for when I want extreme accuracy.
Yeah, I still have my old consoles and MiSTer absolutely nails it! Software emulation is really good, but it still feels just a bit “off” some how. It might be that MiSTer can even output at those weird frame rates like 60.08hz for SNES.
@@DrNoBrazil Yes. I was trying to be brief. If you wish, swap my use of 'emulators' to 'traditional software emulators' and 'fpga' to 'fpga based hardware emulators'.
Video Game Esoterica has done quite a few videos on this, specifically comparing the MiSTer to other software emulation alternatives. The results are very close, however I always enjoy playing on the MiSTer as it's just that little bit more refined and accurate. MiSTer developers also help software emulation - as part of decapping various old arcade chips, assumptions that were made and were wrong have been rectified, and developers such as Jotego have fed back changes and fixes into the MAME project so they can fix their software emulation accuracy as well.
ETA... not directly related but another amazing bit of tech coming out of left field is the open source CRT project by a guy named Daede. Not ready of prime time but it is mindblowing to think we could soon gut vintage CRTs and completely upgrade them with 2020 electronics.
For my 'Mister stack', I went ahead and bought the USB hub board to give it a cleaner look. Money well spent, in my opinion, since there's no extraneous cables hanging out. EDIT: The fact that they got PSX working AT ALL is something of a miracle.
Awesome! One of my mates has one of these and been meaning to look into exactly what it is. I like how it’s essentially native console processing (or as close to as possible/better than emulation with the ability for continual improvement) and appears to have a lot of the handy features that emulators allow. Might have to get one myself!
@@silenthill4 a lot of cores give you both. Great 1 to 1 with the ability to enable turbo, higher sprite counts, etc plus impressive scaling for hdmi and native timings for analog. It really gives you everything
I sat on this for a while but eventually purchased it at the end of 2020 during lockdown. It's my favourite project and I've purchased all kinds of addons for it so I have a complete MiSTer. I have collected a few original game controllers, but I can highly recommend everything by 8bitdo - their controllers feel great and are of a high quality. Most recently I purchased the 8bitdo Pro 2 controller which is now my daily driver. I use the 8bitdo bluetooth adapter, however it also works with a whole series of generic ones as well.
@@silenthill4 Can't account for improvement in every retro game, like old polygon-based ones originally railroaded by their framerates, where only complete PC remakes answered the call for a complete technical facelift (Final Fantasy 12: The Zodiac Age for example). Like for one, Final Fantasy 9 has this issue in its most recent iterations. It just seems like an "original" rom or ISO wouldn't be able to achieve something like 144 FPS, perhaps, but I do remember the 60 FPS speedhack for Dissidia 012 Duodecim Final Fantasy for PSP, among several other PSP titles...
MiSTer is awesome! Sadly there was a sizable price jump on the DE-10 Nano recently, but when you consider all the systems, flash carts, and the price of a scaler that you're replacing, it's easily worth it. It has advantages and some differences (which may be considered disadvantages) with a Raspberry Pi so make sure you do your research to determine what's for you. The PS1 core is written by FPGAzumspass who has his own way of designing cores from the ground up, starting with a software emulator for reference, and it's been making tremendous progress in a short period of time. It doesn't have sound currently but I believe he said he'd be adding sound early this year. Saturn core is also being worked on and is showing great promise. I think this'll be a big one for attracting the Pi crowd. Lastly I'd like to point out that the update_all script includes BIOS getter and takes care of a lot of other functions, including the official downloader/updater.
@@dinierto only time will tell. Both builds are progressing well. Laxer3a’s build isn’t on the MiSTer framework due to developer being more familiar with another framework, but we would hope that he can get it moved across.
I must say you have created a fantastic channel. Happy New Year! crazy how this channel has grown...I subbed at 42K like 3 years ago, at almost a Million is a huge milestone. 2022 is gonna get you there
Bought an ultimate Mister pre-built because that's pretty much all I could find without having to wait for months. Learning how it works has been fun. I want to give the 486 core a whirl
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Best way for me, play in Nintendo Wii. And for RULES, play in Wii Mini Modded for run Homebrew Channel
This is the answer for perfection, capability and accuracy. Well close to it. Good to keep a bit of video game history in with you. Good to have a snack adapter for less input delay with controllers. Plus you can grab a bunch of adapters for various consoles more easier. Most of the retro consoles are done. Some are still being worked on or going to be. The harder to do consoles are getting worked on, which is surprising. Like PS1.
Mister is the way to go when you can't buy or find the original arcade boards and need to keep the original arcades alive. Even building the shells and bringing the original arcades back Mister is the way to go. Most use the 60 in one which I'm not a fan of.
Yeah, this is exactly the sort of scenario where FPGA makes sense. Maybe no so much for your typical living room retro box where usability concerns just make something like Retropie more fun to use.
One of my favourite addons for the MiSTer FPGA is the mt32pi which is a Roland MT32 emulator. I use it with the AO486 core to play retro PC games and also with the X68000 core which is running awesome at the moment. There are also heaps of Arcade cores and specific systems like Capcom CPS1, CPS1.5 and CPS2 which have been developed by Jose Tejada (aka Jotego). They are absolutely fantastic. I've gone all out with my MiSTer FPGA and got the aluminium case from Mister Addons which looks supreme. This is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever purchased. Everything works so well without having to mess about with heaps of settings like with some other solutions. We also have the CRT masking/scan line support so that you can get scan lines and CRT masks on your LCD so it looks like a CRT. I also have a composite out module so I can run the games through my old CRT television. it's simply amazing.
I've been watching and waiting for years now before I buy. I don't think people realize just how amazing this hardware is. Consider the cost of modding any of those old consoles to make them HDMI compatable, and the price isn't so scary anymore.
I have two in the Mister Addons aluminum heat sink cases. Both with analogue IO boards, USB hub boards and 128GB RAM card. Expensive set up this way but I really enjoy playing this way. Many console cores support both saves and cheats. Love them as much as the Analogue consoles. It's like getting something new every time I run the update_all script. Hopefully PS1 will be a fully working core this year. Great choice for a New Year's day review.
I've heard some stories that some alu cases can short the pcb irreparably damaging the DE10-Nano if the power surges. Make sure you have plastic or rubber standoffs I suppose.
@@r0bo11 Thanks for the tip but so far everything has worked perfectly with the aluminum cases. They are usually out of stock so I'm glad I bought when I did. I bought one case to use on my existing MiSTer setup and another as a complete pre-built unit. I love the constant updates. It's like getting something new almost weekly. Still waiting on a fully functional PS1 core but I think it will eventually happen. It was the Neo Geo core that made me get into this. I have a consolized MVS and the MiSTer plays exactly the same. As far as game play goes, I can't tell any difference between the MVS and the MiSTer. No matter how you look at it, these things are expensive. Many (possibly most) would say they are too expensive but that is subjective.
You should never be feeling any lag when using MiSTer. Run the INI SETTINGS script and set it to LOW LAG and then run the USB FAST POLLING script. This polls the controller 1000 times a second and should work with any decent controller.
MiSTer Addons has measured the latency of a whole bunch of controllers. For most modern controllers, even on wireless or bluetooth the roughly 20ms-30ms latency is less than one frame and is non-detectable. If you are a purist you could get a SNAC adapter and bring the latency down to only a few milliseconds.
@@ngqp for NTSC 60Hz that is correct. For PAL 50Hz it’s 20ms. Even without SNAC the average game controller latency is not even going to be measurable or noticeable.
First when you said this FPGA is going for $400 I thought why not buy a $35 dollar Pi 4 and play retro games but when you said it's not emulating it's recreating classic hardware on FPGA so now it's awesome that's amazing the value for the FBGA is not depreciated
$400 is a full nice setup(assuming things are in normal supply). Pi 4 is going to be about $100 most the necessary stuff. Once you figure out a few thing the mister is also easier to work with.
Only software emulation on high end PCs comes close for a few systems, but it's much more complicated to setup. Emulation on mini-systems sucks compared to FPGA.
@@okene What other stuff? I bought an Argon One case and a 500GB SD card. Put the 500GB VirtualMan image on it and was playing immediately. There was no tweaking required. Sure, it’s emulation but for the vast majority of people they won’t know the difference.
Initially I was enthusiastic about thr 1:1 rendition with the original hardware. No emulation or compromises. But: the cost, the availability (free) and versatility of emulation, like the resolution multiplier, the CD reader speed up (like for the NEOGEO core) and the amount of games emulated, really threw me back to reality. MISTER is presented as a solution to every retrogame ambition, but it is ultimately a niche product for extreme nerds, lag peepers and CRT lovers. I'm fine, with emulation thanks.
De10-Nano prices have gone way up. Direct from major electronics suppliers (once they get them back in stock) like Mouser and Digikey - last year selling for around $120, now $210.
The subsidy is significant. I can't find the source, but remember that the DE-10 would be over $300 without the subsidy. A year ago you could buy the DE-10 for $105 with an educational discount. Chip shortages, supply chain issues, and basic supply and demand are driving up prices. FPGA used to be a niche, but it's becoming (much) more popular. I still use a mixture of real hardware, emulation, and FPGA, but one of the primary reasons I use FPGA is for the hardware-accurate, low input lag. I'm very sensitive to it. That's why I can't play shmups on a Nintendo Switch due to the crazy input lag. It feels like I'm playing in syrup.
Nice brick background and hip hop music. I like the progress the MisTer fpga board has made for the retro gaming community. I wonder how other boards like the NVidia development board are doing?
update_all FTW! theypsilon is also on Patreon now and has some special patreon features available. i recommend supporting him, because update_all is simply magic!
Mister is one raspberry Pi board away from being made irrelevant. We really need this concept to be applicable to other fpga boards other than the de10nano.
I would go with a digital board if you don't need dual monitor. You can still use analogue through the HDMI output and it will allow you to add a second ram module if needed for future cores. The analogue board doesn't allow a second ram module and has no on/off switch.
Nice, but with the MISTER's hardware prices escalating as they are I'll stick with emulation for awhile. The front ends for the emulators has evolved to the point that you can put together some really professional and polished looking arcade systems that is easier on the wallet.
I completely agree. I respect the tech and find it very intriguing but it's not for me. Emulation is so good now and in some cases offers a lot of clever improvements.
Will get one of these in the future and put it in my Amiga case as a replacement of a broken motherboard. I already connected the Amiga keyboard to USB using an Arduino.
@@NoshAbroad I let the local retro computer museum have a look at the board and the said it had multiple issues so I said they could keep the board, so I guess that ship has sailed 😋
Got my Mister during lockdown and have been enjoying it immensely. Kind of want to get a raspberry Pi to make a Mt32pi, which turns the pi into a Roland MT32 synth emulator for crisp old PC audio like the Sharp x68000. Such a great little project that keeps getting better. If both PS1 and Saturn get released on this platform I'll be over the moon.
Same. I got the HAT already, but can't get a Pi3A+ from any my usual outlets at moment. Sold out everywhere. Got mail alerts for stock on a few sites so hopefully soon enough. Not heard it in person, but even listening on a few YT videos I can tell the sound is much better on those ao486 and X68000 games. Definately something I'm looking forward to trying out too
@@mumfnah I can vouch for the sound quality, it's really amazing soundscape with the various soundfonts! and well worth the investment. I have an ADAT cable running from the MiSTer I/O expansion board to my headphone DAC/Amp and it's mind blowing! You can still use an ordinary Pi3B+ is you're desperate, the 3A+ just has an easier to handle form factor.
@@NoshAbroad thanks. That HAT is currently out of stock, but I already have the MT32-Pi HAT from a seller here in UK. The main problem here is getting a Pi, all the UK shops are sold out, of the A+ and the Zero W models. I'm on the waiting lists for when stock is back. I'm guessing it's another result of the global chip shortages. Hopefully things will pick up and more Pi boards start being available to all the shops soon enough
Besides the GBA, Saturn and PS1 are really the last 2 game consoles ever released that can really benefit from FPGA emulation (mostly due to emulation accuracy issues with floating pont math). If they can get those two running 100% accurate on the DE-10 Nano under MiSTer, it'll basically be an all-in-one gateway to cycle accurate 90s videogaming.
FP math isn't an issue, the problem with newer targets is the required resources, speeds, and memory bandwidth / latency. The Cyclone V (used in the DE10) can't do FP natively, so you build it up from logic blocks, just like you would with transistors in silicon (whether it's signed-magnitude integers, 2's complement, complex fixed-point, or floating-point, it doesn't matter to the hardware as long as the author implements the logic correctly). It's also not going to be possible to get the PSX running at 100% on the DE-10 Nano (I'm not sure about the Saturn, but I suspect a similar constraint). The attached memory doesn't have sufficient bandwidth / latency, and the underlying substrate (the FPGA) is a bit too slow (if I recall correctly, it's about 5 MHz too slow for the required pipeline latency). Basically, the authors are making them as close to the original as possible, while trying to take advantage of some architecture differences to hopefully balance out the performance loss. Also, most of the MiSTer cores are technically not "cycle accurate" - doing so would be far too much work and apply to tight of a constraint. Functionally from the ROM's perspective though, they're cycle accurate.
@@soloM81 I suspect that's a PR thing. Architecturally, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the cores to run at full speed on the DE10. The DE10 does not have sufficient memory bandwidth / latency as compared to the PS1. So the solution that the MiSTer PSX core is using, is to clock the GPU 2x the speed, use a DRAM L2, and stall when the L2 misses, if I recall correctly. There is a video showing a comparison between that core and the original hardware for several rendering tests, indicating that the FPGA core is faster in some cases, and slower in others. The 2x speed really helps for contiguous memory draw regions, but the memory latency causes slowdowns when the regions are not contiguous. The Replay PSX core on the other hand, draws 2 pixels per cycle instead of 1, which effectively accomplishes the 2x speed (by using more resources). It also properly implements the GTE pipeline behavior (which is partly why it runs a little slower). The MiSTer PSX core on the other hand adds more GTE pipeline stages to bring the clock up (if I remember correctly), which changes the instruction latency slightly. In both cores, the GTE is interlocked, so it produces the correct functional behavior at the cost of CPU stalls. So what ever you may have heard, or think you heard, was puffery - likely because the truth doesn't sound as good, and that it's harder to explain. I guess it comes down to: what does "full speed" mean? Can it run at 33 MHz+? mostly. Can it run at the same rate as the original (i.e. no extra stalls), no. So I would say it's they are not "full speed", but likely can be close enough.
@@hjups pr thing i dont think so these guys are not going to lie and not reading all that stuff if you have not done anything on mister your word means nothing
@@soloM81 That's exactly why the developers didn't tell the full truth - they knew it would be too complicated / too much for most people to read. Hence saying it will run as fast as the original is much simpler to convey. Anyway, it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. Reality exists without belief. Also, how do you know I haven't done anything with MiSTer? This youtube account may have a different user name.
ooohhhh could you show us some amiga on there? I LOVE the amiga system and it's a pain to run without a keyboard on retropie (or at least thats what I read, because of the lack of keyboard) still.... amiga is MY FAVORITE TOO! :D
Check Pezz 82's videos. You can setup a virtual hard drive images with games and a front end menu system so everything can be launched from a controller. Be warned, however, that some games require a keyboard and/or a mouse to be completely functional.
$400 is nothing compared to what you get. Arcade alone is worth much more than that. Really to compare the value you gotta add the price of original hardware for every arcade, computer, console, and handheld core.... then add up the price for all flash carts/ODEs you would need. Then add up a price for a scaler. You'd probably be over $100,000 in cost of original hardware. A lot of the stuff you probably cannot even find the original hardware anymore with the arcade boards and computers. Its even tough to get a Sharp X68000 fully working and that alone is like $1,200+ if you can find it, then it is a huge pain in the butt to use. If someone says just get a Pi4, thats fine but MiSTer is for people who want the same or better experience than original hardware. Software emulation has gotten really good but not perfect.
Hey +ETA PRIME , since you've showed several launcher/ UIs for a console like experience on this SBCs, maybe you could demonstrate something similar on one of your Mini PCs with Windows next time! I wonder if there is a UI, where I can comfortably start my Windows games with a controller, maybe from Uplay, Steam, Epic, Game Pass, Stadia and so on. Since I'm not so deep into emulation and would like to start some classic PC games the same way via remote or controller maybe you have some ideas how to setup a mini pc (like the asrock nuc or one of your InWin builds) in a similar way. Greeting from Germany!
Great video. I’d love to see a Tutorial video for the new PSX core. I still install all my MiSTer cores manually to keep things clean. Also people going crazy about Shadow Masks. Would love to understand more about these if you want to do a vodep
@@ETAPRIME Thank you !!!! and i'm pretty amazed of how they manage to recreate the original hardware, so far i thought other than making/owning an actual old console or using emulation, there's no way we can play those old retro games, i'm glad there are projects like this one, looking forward for the updates and as always amazing video ^^
In my opinion Mister is perfect for 2D systems for its perfect timings and hardware emulation. For 3D systems, being able to upscale resolution is a must.
@@ferrarikangaroo9271 my point is 100% cycle accuracy for 2D systems is a must. For 3D systems it does not make any sense as the 3D does not need that to be well played on emulator. Psone, saturn and N64 have so bad 3D graphics ( lots of pixels, bleeding aliasing and lots of slowing down action) that i’d rather play it in 1080p upscale with no aliasing and no slowdowns. Dreamcast and PS2 are ok as is but playing a PS2 game upscaled is such a great feature. So to me Mister is a must for 2D systems, for 3D it is not useless but not mandatory at all. And i am not a peasant of emulation. i started in emulation in the 1990’s, saw all the great evolution it took for 30 years. Don’t be a so entitled little brat.
@@CatsandHotdogs Wow, you couldn't be more wrong (or rather, your opinion is hilariously terrible). Buy a RetroPi, that's more suitable for you. Steer clear of the MiSTer. The MiSTer project is for cycle accurate simulation of hardware, as they were.
@@ferrarikangaroo9271 I expect his point was that hardware accuracy isn't necessarily desirable when it comes to ps1. Don't get me wrong i love the system, but it hasn't aged nearly as well as the 2D games.
Nice video, thanks for the update!! However, one clarification is in order: FPGA technology is also emulation. It's just that it's hardware-based. The cores have to be programmed in a language (VHDL), and are only as good as the developers who make them. Like all Analogue products and MiSTer, they have to be regularly updated to improve compatibility, performance, solve bugs, etc. In fact, both software-based and hardware-based emulation have benefited from advances in each other's fields. There are some inherent advantages to FPGA (like no extra input lag, for example), but it's in no way a guarantee of anything. And no, FPGA doesn't magically make it more accurate. Accuracy needs to be worked on. The best example is the in-development PS1 core. And even when it's finished, there's no guarantee it will be more accurate than Mednafen.
Configured, not programmed (even though the vendors call it "programming"). The HDLs are more like HTML than Javascript, where they don't tell the FPGA to execute instructions, but tell them how to connect the "gates" (they're binary look up tables). Other than that, I agree with everything you said. Most FPGA developers (at least the good / experienced ones), will do software-hardware co-emulation. So they build a software emulator at the same time as writing the HDL for the FPGA. That lets them test individual blocks and compare the results. In the end, the software emulator developed should be as accurate / more accurate than a LLE, but will not be optimized for performance making it useless for anything other than debugging. And because of the restrictions placed by the FPGA substrate, you necessarily will have a less than perfect implementation in hardware. The trick is making the imperfections so minor that they don't matter.
i agree. good tools don't make a good worker, however some people really do take it to the extreme. people like furrtek are decapping custom arcade chips and mapping them out by hand to make complete gate replicas of the original chips.
LOL! MiSTer is more than just software for the DE10 Nano’s hardware. I mean, you were literally pulling off MiSTer-specific PCBs right after saying that. I know you know this but the contradiction on screen when you said it is just amusing. Perhaps you oversimplified a little. ;)
MMS is the ONLY way to do Mister today unless you're using it inside some other enclosure like an arcade cabinet or faux retro-console case. Having a bare board with wires all over the place and dongles hanging everywhere is a waste of time, IMO.
@@NoshAbroad I agree. Or fork over $30k+ to have injection molds made and then have a minimum 10k piece order in place while you wait a year to get delivery. My MMS looks great under the TV, ticks all the right buttons for form and functionality, and I'm thrilled with the intelligence in PCB execution.
I *love* the MiSTer! If the UI was fancier it would be a much better alternative than the Pi4. But as is with all of the "rough around the edges", the audio/video/input is perfect on most systems. You can definitely tell while playing games on it that the sound, video, everything is spot on and this makes it more enjoyable to play IMO. I think for most people, the Pi 4 is a better choice for now for cost, ease of use, etc. but eventually the MiSTer will be a total replacement.
@@alinepiroutek8932 It's hard to go back to the Pi once you get used to the MiSTer. I wish there was a better UI for it though. If someone were to make it as slick as Retropie or Recalbox, the Pi would be in the dust.
You missed all the great arcade cores. Like CPS1/2 and Cave68000. Many more coming in 2022. This is super cheap compared to the real hardware in that case.
Hardware simulation is still emulation. If you're simulating something you are emulating it. There's nothing wrong with emulating a device in hardware or software, but call it how it is.
The difference with this "emulation" is that it is an accurate representation of the board(s) using logic blocks in hardware as opposed to software. Real hardware has all kind of pesky issues like timing and bugs. An accurate simulation at the gate level recreates all of that...and if you're good enough you can even correct those issues. The reason I would go with hardware simulation is that emulation is associated with software emulators like MAME and RetroArch, but at the end of the day, anyone can call it what they want which is why the term FPGA is used more often as it's a more neutral word.
I wonder if "hybrid" emulation would be possible with something like this, i.e. a PCI-E FPGA expansion card that replicates every small component from newer consoles, and leaves only the CPU and GPU to emulate.
Your one of the emulation kings on TH-cam... Checking out all the portables and devices. I own 98% of the consoles (a good chunk are RGB modded) and games that I emulate, just because I am lazy and I want to protect my games so I use emulation. I have played on OG hardware and emulation, 95% of the time, they work perfect, no issues that I can see vs the OG games. Emulation gives an awesome picture over all and even some mods like BSNES HD with the 16:9 option (that is awesome) that are mind blowing. Is MisTer that much better ? Is it really worth $400 plus to play games that emulation for the most part does very well ?
The ultimate setup IMO, would be an FPGA w/ video outputs on a PCI-E Board. One could fire up LB and shunt the emulation to the FPGA for output on either your PC monitor, TV etc. Expanding on that would be MAME making use of this board if detected in PC. It would then transition from software core to FPGA core.
You'd have to boot into the DE-10 separately anyway, I don't think you could pull off runtime parsing (would need a lot of development). You might be talking about PCIE _passthrough_ technology in an encapsulated virtual environment that you can containerise so the front-end programme would instantiate to your choice of OS/GUI. Fairly complex, considering you'd basically encapsulate hardware simulation into a software emulation environment which defeats the purpose of the FPGA logic and accuracy. I don't think any company would invest into hardware (considering the new normal in world economics with chips and manufacturing) as things become more of a system as a service or off-the-cloud service plans. Next generation of gaming will be "shadow" gaming because people will buy into a monthly service charge rather than buy a huge complex system to run a few retro or AAA games.
@@r0bo11 Yeah I was talking about the OS and LB communicating with the DE-10 AIB in real time. No Virtualization. I know it would be a herculean task and don't ever expect to see anything close. I think as time goes by, we'll see more improvements made in software emus to reduce input lag. Thats a way more realistic goal anyway.
Nice video! I hope to see a comparison between Mister and Pc with runahead enabled In retroarch to compare, although I know FPGA provides better accuracy overall, I could be nice to see the performance on comparable priced machine's, at least regarding video, sound and input lag Happy new year!
there is a N64 core currently in development, but I'm unsure if it's progressed much in the last 2 years. It may be another 2 years before it's realised.
Also...be careful which 2.4ghz wireless controller you get. I bought the retrobit sega saturn controller and have noticed that when using the USB dongle the button assignments alter when you switch cores. Perhaps they fixed it in later revisions but mine is unusable in its current state.
Definitely better than the raspberry pi emulation, costs alot more, but worth it. Its amazing, they can simulate virtually the console on such a small chip, so people can simulate gaming like on original hardware. I would call this simulating, not emulating, as you get really close to original playing experience as is possible. The raspberry pi, was a great product, but this definitely is much better overall, for all older systems, and older arcade games. For anything newer, using a pc, is best, but you should not need a full pc to run what can run on the mister. It truly is amazing, what the people that create these things can do, ie taking original hardware, and simulating it on such a small chip in the fgpa. I would personally call fgpa mister, ie simulation of original hardware, not emulation. The only thing missing in the mister, is it cannot have a front end The mister is easily the best way to experience old 2d systems.
@ETAPrime, do you have a link to the 2.4GHz controller you showed off and would you recommend it? I am trying to build an all-in-one retro setup and would like something with USB that’s not dependent on Bluetooth drivers. All the other systems have corded controllers, but it’d be nice to have one generic wireless.
Hopefully ETA will confirm for you the model, but to me it looks to be the controller he got bundled with recent console pick up, showed in his video 4 days ago, here th-cam.com/video/xwaEMuOCVuk/w-d-xo.html
If you're into modern arcade cabinets, I do a nice wall mounted build for Umbrella Arcades. There are full builds and stand-alone shells available. I'm also very much looking forward to building an FPGA-cade, hopefully soon.
Not without additional hardware. It's already been discussed that N64 isn't possible on a single de10nano, but some discussion did occur in the past with breaking out the GPU functionality into a separate piece of hardware. the core issue is the clock speed and N64 and Gamecube exceed what can be provided on a single de10nano unit at this stage.
Odd question, but are there really any other public projects using the DE-10 Nano? Because otherwise the pedantics over "DE-10" vs "MiSTer" is really just pointless naggery, just like the "Linux" vs "GNU/Linux" pedantics.
There are a few, but they aren't as developed (i.e. they have smaller ecosystems). There's the original MiST project, which MiSTer was forked from. There's the Replay1, and soon Replay2. There are a few others, but if I recall correctly, they have smaller libraries than the ones I listed.
PS1 will likely be the end of the line. The N64 CPU has 2x the transistors (among other limitations) and is unlikely to fit inside the FPGA of the DE10
the 8bitdo Pro 2 is a great option. i own many of their controllers and they are all great, but this one is my favourite. i use it with their bluetooth dongle.
Sadly I just finished my pc, and I already own every console I want which I have recapped and fitted with flashcarts and ode solutions, as well as removable power supplies so in 60 years when I turn 83 this will be handy, because of my old hands can’t replace the components anymore or my son won’t XD because he picked up my hobbies. I’ll buy the version of this that will do ps10 and older boys
I'm actually curious how it would handle stuff like 8088/8086 PCs, or 286/386/486. Whether it could mimic a Sound Blaster on the systems. I know there are lots of other ways to emulate old PC support, like DOSBox or MAME, but I'm just curious if MisTer would do a good job. Especially with the small handful of ancient games that just don't want anything faster than an 8088.
There’s a 486 and I think some kind of pc-88 core although I don’t know much about them, check out the official mister forums or discord for more info.
There is the mt32pi and there's an off shoot of the mt32pi that works with the RPi Zero 2 w making for a very tiny addition to the MiSTer giving the 486 core MIDI synthesizer music.
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bzivN4KDg-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Good video, I would love to see more Mister stuff from you. Especially some comparison between emulation options and FPGA. RasPi/Android/PC emulators vs Mister. For people who have never had the chance to play on real hardware, its hard to explain how sometimes emulators feel very different than the original. I still love emulators, but it's great to have FPGA available for when I want extreme accuracy.
this is still emulation
Yeah, I still have my old consoles and MiSTer absolutely nails it!
Software emulation is really good, but it still feels just a bit “off” some how. It might be that MiSTer can even output at those weird frame rates like 60.08hz for SNES.
@@DrNoBrazil Yes. I was trying to be brief. If you wish, swap my use of 'emulators' to 'traditional software emulators' and 'fpga' to 'fpga based hardware emulators'.
@@Inv8erZlM it feels a bit off because emulation can't sync with accurate timings the longer it runs.
Video Game Esoterica has done quite a few videos on this, specifically comparing the MiSTer to other software emulation alternatives. The results are very close, however I always enjoy playing on the MiSTer as it's just that little bit more refined and accurate. MiSTer developers also help software emulation - as part of decapping various old arcade chips, assumptions that were made and were wrong have been rectified, and developers such as Jotego have fed back changes and fixes into the MAME project so they can fix their software emulation accuracy as well.
ETA... not directly related but another amazing bit of tech coming out of left field is the open source CRT project by a guy named Daede. Not ready of prime time but it is mindblowing to think we could soon gut vintage CRTs and completely upgrade them with 2020 electronics.
Would save a lot of TV's from the landfill. As long as the tube's not worn out, it'll be perfect for RGB gaming
But my problem is my tube, wearing out.
For my 'Mister stack', I went ahead and bought the USB hub board to give it a cleaner look. Money well spent, in my opinion, since there's no extraneous cables hanging out.
EDIT: The fact that they got PSX working AT ALL is something of a miracle.
A got one of the aluminium cases from Mister Addons. That makes the whole thing look super nice! Plus no fans as the case is the heatsink.
nice to see you giving a bit of coverage to the MiSTer.. it's an incredible project..
Awesome! One of my mates has one of these and been meaning to look into exactly what it is.
I like how it’s essentially native console processing (or as close to as possible/better than emulation with the ability for continual improvement) and appears to have a lot of the handy features that emulators allow.
Might have to get one myself!
I don't necessarily want 1-1 though when we can do it better (up the fps, add filters, etc)
@@silenthill4 a lot of cores give you both. Great 1 to 1 with the ability to enable turbo, higher sprite counts, etc plus impressive scaling for hdmi and native timings for analog. It really gives you everything
I sat on this for a while but eventually purchased it at the end of 2020 during lockdown. It's my favourite project and I've purchased all kinds of addons for it so I have a complete MiSTer. I have collected a few original game controllers, but I can highly recommend everything by 8bitdo - their controllers feel great and are of a high quality. Most recently I purchased the 8bitdo Pro 2 controller which is now my daily driver. I use the 8bitdo bluetooth adapter, however it also works with a whole series of generic ones as well.
@@silenthill4 Can't account for improvement in every retro game, like old polygon-based ones originally railroaded by their framerates, where only complete PC remakes answered the call for a complete technical facelift (Final Fantasy 12: The Zodiac Age for example). Like for one, Final Fantasy 9 has this issue in its most recent iterations. It just seems like an "original" rom or ISO wouldn't be able to achieve something like 144 FPS, perhaps, but I do remember the 60 FPS speedhack for Dissidia 012 Duodecim Final Fantasy for PSP, among several other PSP titles...
Shadow mask. That is the new level for emulating CRT with such great results.
Love the mister its the best thing i picked up last year, such a great bit of kit and it keeps giving.
For sure! Every week feels like it's Christmas whenever I run the Update_All script :)
MiSTer is awesome! Sadly there was a sizable price jump on the DE-10 Nano recently, but when you consider all the systems, flash carts, and the price of a scaler that you're replacing, it's easily worth it. It has advantages and some differences (which may be considered disadvantages) with a Raspberry Pi so make sure you do your research to determine what's for you.
The PS1 core is written by FPGAzumspass who has his own way of designing cores from the ground up, starting with a software emulator for reference, and it's been making tremendous progress in a short period of time. It doesn't have sound currently but I believe he said he'd be adding sound early this year.
Saturn core is also being worked on and is showing great promise. I think this'll be a big one for attracting the Pi crowd.
Lastly I'd like to point out that the update_all script includes BIOS getter and takes care of a lot of other functions, including the official downloader/updater.
Yep. The DE-10 could cost $1000 and still be far cheaper than the hardware it ... simulates.
Don't forget - there are TWO PS1 cores being worked on. The first one was started by Laxer3a and it's coming along in big strides as well.
@@wizdude true although it's lot targeting MiSTer. I would anticipate that fpgazumspass's will be the default
@@dinierto only time will tell. Both builds are progressing well. Laxer3a’s build isn’t on the MiSTer framework due to developer being more familiar with another framework, but we would hope that he can get it moved across.
@@wizdude indeed! Either way, exciting times!
I must say you have created a fantastic channel. Happy New Year! crazy how this channel has grown...I subbed at 42K like 3 years ago,
at almost a Million is a huge milestone. 2022 is gonna get you there
Happy 2022 to one of my favorite channels, ETA Prime! 🥳🎉
Bought an ultimate Mister pre-built because that's pretty much all I could find without having to wait for months. Learning how it works has been fun. I want to give the 486 core a whirl
Best way for me, play in Nintendo Wii. And for RULES, play in Wii Mini Modded for run Homebrew Channel
Wait till you give the 486 core a whirl with the mt32 pi hat add on…even better!!😉
@@pyjama9556 if I could find a raspberry pi. That thing looks pretty cool
This is the answer for perfection, capability and accuracy. Well close to it. Good to keep a bit of video game history in with you.
Good to have a snack adapter for less input delay with controllers. Plus you can grab a bunch of adapters for various consoles more easier.
Most of the retro consoles are done. Some are still being worked on or going to be. The harder to do consoles are getting worked on, which is surprising. Like PS1.
Glad I got my DE10 Nano board for £120 a few years ago, also got the addon boards, and 128mb ram module.
Same here! It's gift that keeps on giving.
Mister is the way to go when you can't buy or find the original arcade boards and need to keep the original arcades alive. Even building the shells and bringing the original arcades back Mister is the way to go. Most use the 60 in one which I'm not a fan of.
Yeah, this is exactly the sort of scenario where FPGA makes sense. Maybe no so much for your typical living room retro box where usability concerns just make something like Retropie more fun to use.
About time! :) Welcome (again) to the family, ETA. Missed you.
One of my favourite addons for the MiSTer FPGA is the mt32pi which is a Roland MT32 emulator. I use it with the AO486 core to play retro PC games and also with the X68000 core which is running awesome at the moment. There are also heaps of Arcade cores and specific systems like Capcom CPS1, CPS1.5 and CPS2 which have been developed by Jose Tejada (aka Jotego). They are absolutely fantastic. I've gone all out with my MiSTer FPGA and got the aluminium case from Mister Addons which looks supreme. This is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever purchased. Everything works so well without having to mess about with heaps of settings like with some other solutions. We also have the CRT masking/scan line support so that you can get scan lines and CRT masks on your LCD so it looks like a CRT. I also have a composite out module so I can run the games through my old CRT television. it's simply amazing.
I've been watching and waiting for years now before I buy. I don't think people realize just how amazing this hardware is. Consider the cost of modding any of those old consoles to make them HDMI compatable, and the price isn't so scary anymore.
I have two in the Mister Addons aluminum heat sink cases. Both with analogue IO boards, USB hub boards and 128GB RAM card.
Expensive set up this way but I really enjoy playing this way. Many console cores support both saves and cheats. Love them as much as the Analogue consoles. It's like getting something new every time I run the update_all script. Hopefully PS1 will be a fully working core this year.
Great choice for a New Year's day review.
I've heard some stories that some alu cases can short the pcb irreparably damaging the DE10-Nano if the power surges. Make sure you have plastic or rubber standoffs I suppose.
@@r0bo11 don't get cheap knock off cases. Mister Adonis makes quality cases.
@@r0bo11 Thanks for the tip but so far everything has worked perfectly with the aluminum cases. They are usually out of stock so I'm glad I bought when I did. I bought one case to use on my existing MiSTer setup and another as a complete pre-built unit.
I love the constant updates. It's like getting something new almost weekly. Still waiting on a fully functional PS1 core but I think it will eventually happen. It was the Neo Geo core that made me get into this. I have a consolized MVS and the MiSTer plays exactly the same. As far as game play goes, I can't tell any difference between the MVS and the MiSTer. No matter how you look at it, these things are expensive. Many (possibly most) would say they are too expensive but that is subjective.
You should never be feeling any lag when using MiSTer. Run the INI SETTINGS script and set it to LOW LAG and then run the USB FAST POLLING script. This polls the controller 1000 times a second and should work with any decent controller.
And make sure your TV is in Game mode. They do actually have better response times, it's not just some color/brightness change.
MiSTer Addons has measured the latency of a whole bunch of controllers. For most modern controllers, even on wireless or bluetooth the roughly 20ms-30ms latency is less than one frame and is non-detectable. If you are a purist you could get a SNAC adapter and bring the latency down to only a few milliseconds.
@@wizdude i think 1 frame is 16ish ms. Is that right?
@@ngqp for NTSC 60Hz that is correct. For PAL 50Hz it’s 20ms. Even without SNAC the average game controller latency is not even going to be measurable or noticeable.
@@wizdude thanks for the reply!
nice to see FPGA's still getting attention, i'm well out of date i think, last one i bought was the Turbo Chameleon 64, which still works very well.
That is super cool seeing some PS1 working with MisTer.
Awesome! I've been waiting for you to make a video on these! Definitely interested MisTer
This core is still great as is, and it’ll be upgraded even more in the coming months too which is awesome! 😏👍✨
First when you said this FPGA is going for $400 I thought why not buy a $35 dollar Pi 4 and play retro games but when you said it's not emulating it's recreating classic hardware on FPGA so now it's awesome that's amazing the value for the FBGA is not depreciated
$400 is a full nice setup(assuming things are in normal supply). Pi 4 is going to be about $100 most the necessary stuff. Once you figure out a few thing the mister is also easier to work with.
The fpga mister is for the purist, who is willing to pay more for perfect simulation of the gameplay, gfx and sound/music. The Pi just doesnt do this.
Only software emulation on high end PCs comes close for a few systems, but it's much more complicated to setup. Emulation on mini-systems sucks compared to FPGA.
@@okene What other stuff? I bought an Argon One case and a 500GB SD card. Put the 500GB VirtualMan image on it and was playing immediately. There was no tweaking required. Sure, it’s emulation but for the vast majority of people they won’t know the difference.
Initially I was enthusiastic about thr 1:1 rendition with the original hardware. No emulation or compromises.
But: the cost, the availability (free) and versatility of emulation, like the resolution multiplier, the CD reader speed up (like for the NEOGEO core) and the amount of games emulated, really threw me back to reality.
MISTER is presented as a solution to every retrogame ambition, but it is ultimately a niche product for extreme nerds, lag peepers and CRT lovers.
I'm fine, with emulation thanks.
De10-Nano prices have gone way up. Direct from major electronics suppliers (once they get them back in stock) like Mouser and Digikey - last year selling for around $120, now $210.
And we're lucky they're that cheap, still being subsidized by Intel.
The subsidy is significant. I can't find the source, but remember that the DE-10 would be over $300 without the subsidy. A year ago you could buy the DE-10 for $105 with an educational discount. Chip shortages, supply chain issues, and basic supply and demand are driving up prices. FPGA used to be a niche, but it's becoming (much) more popular. I still use a mixture of real hardware, emulation, and FPGA, but one of the primary reasons I use FPGA is for the hardware-accurate, low input lag. I'm very sensitive to it. That's why I can't play shmups on a Nintendo Switch due to the crazy input lag. It feels like I'm playing in syrup.
Nice brick background and hip hop music. I like the progress the MisTer fpga board has made for the retro gaming community. I wonder how other boards like the NVidia development board are doing?
I came to this video straight from the title to say this better be the MiSTer and am happy it was.
Happy New Year to everyone
I really recommend the update_all script and the wallpaper scripts. Show off some Sega System 16 and CPS2!
update_all FTW! theypsilon is also on Patreon now and has some special patreon features available. i recommend supporting him, because update_all is simply magic!
Yay for new mister content
What a great way to start 2022 ETA! HNY Everyone! 🎉 Even if I currently can't afford an FPGA's based console, I will looking forward to the matter.
Yeeeeeeeees! Thank you for this coverage!!!!!!!!!!
Mister is one raspberry Pi board away from being made irrelevant. We really need this concept to be applicable to other fpga boards other than the de10nano.
Have you got the MultiSystem kit from RMC yet?
I would go with a digital board if you don't need dual monitor. You can still use analogue through the HDMI output and it will allow you to add a second ram module if needed for future cores. The analogue board doesn't allow a second ram module and has no on/off switch.
Nice, but with the MISTER's hardware prices escalating as they are I'll stick with emulation for awhile. The front ends for the emulators has evolved to the point that you can put together some really professional and polished looking arcade systems that is easier on the wallet.
I completely agree. I respect the tech and find it very intriguing but it's not for me. Emulation is so good now and in some cases offers a lot of clever improvements.
Will get one of these in the future and put it in my Amiga case as a replacement of a broken motherboard. I already connected the Amiga keyboard to USB using an Arduino.
You could always build an Amiga 500++ and put those old chips to use in a brand new MB.
@@NoshAbroad I let the local retro computer museum have a look at the board and the said it had multiple issues so I said they could keep the board, so I guess that ship has sailed 😋
Got my Mister during lockdown and have been enjoying it immensely. Kind of want to get a raspberry Pi to make a Mt32pi, which turns the pi into a Roland MT32 synth emulator for crisp old PC audio like the Sharp x68000. Such a great little project that keeps getting better. If both PS1 and Saturn get released on this platform I'll be over the moon.
Same. I got the HAT already, but can't get a Pi3A+ from any my usual outlets at moment. Sold out everywhere. Got mail alerts for stock on a few sites so hopefully soon enough.
Not heard it in person, but even listening on a few YT videos I can tell the sound is much better on those ao486 and X68000 games.
Definately something I'm looking forward to trying out too
@@mumfnah I can vouch for the sound quality, it's really amazing soundscape with the various soundfonts! and well worth the investment. I have an ADAT cable running from the MiSTer I/O expansion board to my headphone DAC/Amp and it's mind blowing! You can still use an ordinary Pi3B+ is you're desperate, the 3A+ just has an easier to handle form factor.
@@mumfnah you can use the Pi Zero 2 w and use the hat from Yavimaya maker
@@NoshAbroad thanks. That HAT is currently out of stock, but I already have the MT32-Pi HAT from a seller here in UK.
The main problem here is getting a Pi, all the UK shops are sold out, of the A+ and the Zero W models.
I'm on the waiting lists for when stock is back. I'm guessing it's another result of the global chip shortages. Hopefully things will pick up and more Pi boards start being available to all the shops soon enough
Thank you. I am trying to wait til everything gets a little cheaper before i jump in.
Besides the GBA, Saturn and PS1 are really the last 2 game consoles ever released that can really benefit from FPGA emulation (mostly due to emulation accuracy issues with floating pont math). If they can get those two running 100% accurate on the DE-10 Nano under MiSTer, it'll basically be an all-in-one gateway to cycle accurate 90s videogaming.
FP math isn't an issue, the problem with newer targets is the required resources, speeds, and memory bandwidth / latency. The Cyclone V (used in the DE10) can't do FP natively, so you build it up from logic blocks, just like you would with transistors in silicon (whether it's signed-magnitude integers, 2's complement, complex fixed-point, or floating-point, it doesn't matter to the hardware as long as the author implements the logic correctly).
It's also not going to be possible to get the PSX running at 100% on the DE-10 Nano (I'm not sure about the Saturn, but I suspect a similar constraint). The attached memory doesn't have sufficient bandwidth / latency, and the underlying substrate (the FPGA) is a bit too slow (if I recall correctly, it's about 5 MHz too slow for the required pipeline latency). Basically, the authors are making them as close to the original as possible, while trying to take advantage of some architecture differences to hopefully balance out the performance loss.
Also, most of the MiSTer cores are technically not "cycle accurate" - doing so would be far too much work and apply to tight of a constraint. Functionally from the ROM's perspective though, they're cycle accurate.
@@hjups none of the guys who are working on theses cores have said it would not run at full speed they said it will run at full speed
@@soloM81 I suspect that's a PR thing. Architecturally, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the cores to run at full speed on the DE10. The DE10 does not have sufficient memory bandwidth / latency as compared to the PS1. So the solution that the MiSTer PSX core is using, is to clock the GPU 2x the speed, use a DRAM L2, and stall when the L2 misses, if I recall correctly. There is a video showing a comparison between that core and the original hardware for several rendering tests, indicating that the FPGA core is faster in some cases, and slower in others. The 2x speed really helps for contiguous memory draw regions, but the memory latency causes slowdowns when the regions are not contiguous.
The Replay PSX core on the other hand, draws 2 pixels per cycle instead of 1, which effectively accomplishes the 2x speed (by using more resources). It also properly implements the GTE pipeline behavior (which is partly why it runs a little slower). The MiSTer PSX core on the other hand adds more GTE pipeline stages to bring the clock up (if I remember correctly), which changes the instruction latency slightly. In both cores, the GTE is interlocked, so it produces the correct functional behavior at the cost of CPU stalls.
So what ever you may have heard, or think you heard, was puffery - likely because the truth doesn't sound as good, and that it's harder to explain.
I guess it comes down to: what does "full speed" mean? Can it run at 33 MHz+? mostly. Can it run at the same rate as the original (i.e. no extra stalls), no. So I would say it's they are not "full speed", but likely can be close enough.
@@hjups pr thing i dont think so these guys are not going to lie and not reading all that stuff if you have not done anything on mister your word means nothing
@@soloM81 That's exactly why the developers didn't tell the full truth - they knew it would be too complicated / too much for most people to read. Hence saying it will run as fast as the original is much simpler to convey.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. Reality exists without belief.
Also, how do you know I haven't done anything with MiSTer? This youtube account may have a different user name.
Great video, prime...happy new year!
Can’t wait til the CPS3, IGS PGM, and Naomi cores to materialize on a MiSTer++
ooohhhh could you show us some amiga on there? I LOVE the amiga system and it's a pain to run without a keyboard on retropie (or at least thats what I read, because of the lack of keyboard) still.... amiga is MY FAVORITE TOO! :D
Check Pezz 82's videos. You can setup a virtual hard drive images with games and a front end menu system so everything can be launched from a controller. Be warned, however, that some games require a keyboard and/or a mouse to be completely functional.
$400 is nothing compared to what you get. Arcade alone is worth much more than that. Really to compare the value you gotta add the price of original hardware for every arcade, computer, console, and handheld core.... then add up the price for all flash carts/ODEs you would need. Then add up a price for a scaler. You'd probably be over $100,000 in cost of original hardware. A lot of the stuff you probably cannot even find the original hardware anymore with the arcade boards and computers. Its even tough to get a Sharp X68000 fully working and that alone is like $1,200+ if you can find it, then it is a huge pain in the butt to use. If someone says just get a Pi4, thats fine but MiSTer is for people who want the same or better experience than original hardware. Software emulation has gotten really good but not perfect.
Hey +ETA PRIME , since you've showed several launcher/ UIs for a console like experience on this SBCs, maybe you could demonstrate something similar on one of your Mini PCs with Windows next time! I wonder if there is a UI, where I can comfortably start my Windows games with a controller, maybe from Uplay, Steam, Epic, Game Pass, Stadia and so on.
Since I'm not so deep into emulation and would like to start some classic PC games the same way via remote or controller maybe you have some ideas how to setup a mini pc (like the asrock nuc or one of your InWin builds) in a similar way.
Greeting from Germany!
Love the retro stuff, thanks
Fantastic! Thank you!
Happy new year everyone! Stay safe and healthy 🙏
Great video. I’d love to see a Tutorial video for the new PSX core. I still install all my MiSTer cores manually to keep things clean. Also people going crazy about Shadow Masks. Would love to understand more about these if you want to do a vodep
Happy new year
I would love to see a Raspberry FPGA hat that makes this kind of gaming more affordable for most people.
Earlyyy, happy new yearrrr
Happy new year!
@@ETAPRIME Thank you !!!! and i'm pretty amazed of how they manage to recreate the original hardware, so far i thought other than making/owning an actual old console or using emulation, there's no way we can play those old retro games, i'm glad there are projects like this one, looking forward for the updates and as always amazing video ^^
Excelente , bien explicado , saludos desde colombia 🇨🇴
Happy New Year 2022 🔥🥳🎉🥂🎊💥🍾
In my opinion Mister is perfect for 2D systems for its perfect timings and hardware emulation. For 3D systems, being able to upscale resolution is a must.
I kind of agree. Early 3D of ps1 era is hella ropey. Upscaling from Duckstation is hard to come back from.
@@ferrarikangaroo9271 my point is 100% cycle accuracy for 2D systems is a must. For 3D systems it does not make any sense as the 3D does not need that to be well played on emulator. Psone, saturn and N64 have so bad 3D graphics ( lots of pixels, bleeding aliasing and lots of slowing down action) that i’d rather play it in 1080p upscale with no aliasing and no slowdowns. Dreamcast and PS2 are ok as is but playing a PS2 game upscaled is such a great feature.
So to me Mister is a must for 2D systems, for 3D it is not useless but not mandatory at all.
And i am not a peasant of emulation. i started in emulation in the 1990’s, saw all the great evolution it took for 30 years. Don’t be a so entitled little brat.
@@CatsandHotdogs Wow, you couldn't be more wrong (or rather, your opinion is hilariously terrible). Buy a RetroPi, that's more suitable for you. Steer clear of the MiSTer. The MiSTer project is for cycle accurate simulation of hardware, as they were.
@@ferrarikangaroo9271 I expect his point was that hardware accuracy isn't necessarily desirable when it comes to ps1. Don't get me wrong i love the system, but it hasn't aged nearly as well as the 2D games.
Yeah I love mine and I'm waiting for the PSX core as well as the Saturn core.
Looks great!
Nice video, and btw whats that wireless controller you used?
Nice video, thanks for the update!!
However, one clarification is in order: FPGA technology is also emulation. It's just that it's hardware-based. The cores have to be programmed in a language (VHDL), and are only as good as the developers who make them. Like all Analogue products and MiSTer, they have to be regularly updated to improve compatibility, performance, solve bugs, etc.
In fact, both software-based and hardware-based emulation have benefited from advances in each other's fields.
There are some inherent advantages to FPGA (like no extra input lag, for example), but it's in no way a guarantee of anything.
And no, FPGA doesn't magically make it more accurate. Accuracy needs to be worked on. The best example is the in-development PS1 core. And even when it's finished, there's no guarantee it will be more accurate than Mednafen.
Mednafen is a PC emulator with no graphics user interface. It would be great if they have added user interface.
Configured, not programmed (even though the vendors call it "programming"). The HDLs are more like HTML than Javascript, where they don't tell the FPGA to execute instructions, but tell them how to connect the "gates" (they're binary look up tables).
Other than that, I agree with everything you said.
Most FPGA developers (at least the good / experienced ones), will do software-hardware co-emulation. So they build a software emulator at the same time as writing the HDL for the FPGA. That lets them test individual blocks and compare the results. In the end, the software emulator developed should be as accurate / more accurate than a LLE, but will not be optimized for performance making it useless for anything other than debugging.
And because of the restrictions placed by the FPGA substrate, you necessarily will have a less than perfect implementation in hardware. The trick is making the imperfections so minor that they don't matter.
i agree. good tools don't make a good worker, however some people really do take it to the extreme. people like furrtek are decapping custom arcade chips and mapping them out by hand to make complete gate replicas of the original chips.
I love FPGA stuff but, i think that the Raspberry Pi is probably still the best option for Retro gaming at this point.
good luck finding a de-10 for a reasonable price
LOL! MiSTer is more than just software for the DE10 Nano’s hardware. I mean, you were literally pulling off MiSTer-specific PCBs right after saying that. I know you know this but the contradiction on screen when you said it is just amusing. Perhaps you oversimplified a little. ;)
For all the bits and bobs you need to buy to get this running, I think the MMS (Mister Multi system) is a better value.
In a much nicer consolized case, as well.
MMS is the ONLY way to do Mister today unless you're using it inside some other enclosure like an arcade cabinet or faux retro-console case. Having a bare board with wires all over the place and dongles hanging everywhere is a waste of time, IMO.
The MMS has a cheap and nasty finish to it, and I think the shape of it looks daft. Just my opinion.
@@ArcadeCabNBud Print your own case if it bothers you that much. What a moronic reason to even share.
@@NoshAbroad I agree. Or fork over $30k+ to have injection molds made and then have a minimum 10k piece order in place while you wait a year to get delivery.
My MMS looks great under the TV, ticks all the right buttons for form and functionality, and I'm thrilled with the intelligence in PCB execution.
Can it run all the games on a PC-CRT Monitor with 120Hz over VGA? This would be nice to have.
yes
I *love* the MiSTer! If the UI was fancier it would be a much better alternative than the Pi4. But as is with all of the "rough around the edges", the audio/video/input is perfect on most systems. You can definitely tell while playing games on it that the sound, video, everything is spot on and this makes it more enjoyable to play IMO. I think for most people, the Pi 4 is a better choice for now for cost, ease of use, etc. but eventually the MiSTer will be a total replacement.
I am one of the guys who won't budge for Raspberry Emulation. I like the fidelity.
@@alinepiroutek8932 It's hard to go back to the Pi once you get used to the MiSTer. I wish there was a better UI for it though. If someone were to make it as slick as Retropie or Recalbox, the Pi would be in the dust.
@@labnine3362 Maybe it is impossible. What are the chances of it being possible? It has been years and years without an UI like that.
You missed all the great arcade cores. Like CPS1/2 and Cave68000. Many more coming in 2022. This is super cheap compared to the real hardware in that case.
Hardware simulation is still emulation. If you're simulating something you are emulating it. There's nothing wrong with emulating a device in hardware or software, but call it how it is.
The difference with this "emulation" is that it is an accurate representation of the board(s) using logic blocks in hardware as opposed to software. Real hardware has all kind of pesky issues like timing and bugs. An accurate simulation at the gate level recreates all of that...and if you're good enough you can even correct those issues. The reason I would go with hardware simulation is that emulation is associated with software emulators like MAME and RetroArch, but at the end of the day, anyone can call it what they want which is why the term FPGA is used more often as it's a more neutral word.
Would love to see an updated Sinden Light Gun video for light gun games.
I wonder if "hybrid" emulation would be possible with something like this, i.e. a PCI-E FPGA expansion card that replicates every small component from newer consoles, and leaves only the CPU and GPU to emulate.
There are FPGA pci-e boards, they are more for hardware prototyping than for emulation'
Your one of the emulation kings on TH-cam... Checking out all the portables and devices. I own 98% of the consoles (a good chunk are RGB modded) and games that I emulate, just because I am lazy and I want to protect my games so I use emulation. I have played on OG hardware and emulation, 95% of the time, they work perfect, no issues that I can see vs the OG games. Emulation gives an awesome picture over all and even some mods like BSNES HD with the 16:9 option (that is awesome) that are mind blowing.
Is MisTer that much better ? Is it really worth $400 plus to play games that emulation for the most part does very well ?
If u have all original conole and good emulation machine, answer is NO.
Nowadays, buying DE10-Nano for university project is a lie 😂
All buy for this mister
I'm waiting for a FPGA that does Dreamcast. Then I'm all over it
Just buy a Dreamcast. It'll be cheaper.
The ultimate setup IMO, would be an FPGA w/ video outputs on a PCI-E Board. One could fire up LB and shunt the emulation to the FPGA for output on either your PC monitor, TV etc.
Expanding on that would be MAME making use of this board if detected in PC. It would then transition from software core to FPGA core.
You'd have to boot into the DE-10 separately anyway, I don't think you could pull off runtime parsing (would need a lot of development). You might be talking about PCIE _passthrough_ technology in an encapsulated virtual environment that you can containerise so the front-end programme would instantiate to your choice of OS/GUI. Fairly complex, considering you'd basically encapsulate hardware simulation into a software emulation environment which defeats the purpose of the FPGA logic and accuracy.
I don't think any company would invest into hardware (considering the new normal in world economics with chips and manufacturing) as things become more of a system as a service or off-the-cloud service plans. Next generation of gaming will be "shadow" gaming because people will buy into a monthly service charge rather than buy a huge complex system to run a few retro or AAA games.
@@r0bo11 Yeah I was talking about the OS and LB communicating with the DE-10 AIB in real time. No Virtualization. I know it would be a herculean task and don't ever expect to see anything close. I think as time goes by, we'll see more improvements made in software emus to reduce input lag. Thats a way more realistic goal anyway.
Are there any prototype system boards? Like the Nintendo PlayStation, 3DO M2, 64DD...
Be keen to see the AO486 core demoed
Lu's Retro Source channel here covers that + setup.
When will the next giveaways come? And you didn't mention the names of the winners of the last giveaway. so Please i still waiting
Nice video! I hope to see a comparison between Mister and Pc with runahead enabled In retroarch to compare, although I know FPGA provides better accuracy overall, I could be nice to see the performance on comparable priced machine's, at least regarding video, sound and input lag
Happy new year!
Nice review! You think there will be a worthwhile N64 core?
there is a N64 core currently in development, but I'm unsure if it's progressed much in the last 2 years. It may be another 2 years before it's realised.
Not on the MiSTer / DE-10. There are at least 3 FPGA based N64 cores in various stages of development though.
AWESOME!
Also...be careful which 2.4ghz wireless controller you get. I bought the retrobit sega saturn controller and have noticed that when using the USB dongle the button assignments alter when you switch cores. Perhaps they fixed it in later revisions but mine is unusable in its current state.
Definitely better than the raspberry pi emulation, costs alot more, but worth it.
Its amazing, they can simulate virtually the console on such a small chip, so people can simulate gaming like on original hardware.
I would call this simulating, not emulating, as you get really close to original playing experience as is possible.
The raspberry pi, was a great product, but this definitely is much better overall, for all older systems, and older arcade games. For anything newer, using a pc, is best, but you should not need a full pc to run what can run on the mister.
It truly is amazing, what the people that create these things can do, ie taking original hardware, and simulating it on such a small chip in the fgpa.
I would personally call fgpa mister, ie simulation of original hardware, not emulation.
The only thing missing in the mister, is it cannot have a front end
The mister is easily the best way to experience old 2d systems.
@ETAPrime, do you have a link to the 2.4GHz controller you showed off and would you recommend it? I am trying to build an all-in-one retro setup and would like something with USB that’s not dependent on Bluetooth drivers. All the other systems have corded controllers, but it’d be nice to have one generic wireless.
Hopefully ETA will confirm for you the model, but to me it looks to be the controller he got bundled with recent console pick up, showed in his video 4 days ago, here
th-cam.com/video/xwaEMuOCVuk/w-d-xo.html
@@mumfnah I think you’re right! Thank you for the tip, I had missed that other video due to the holidays.
Most of Chinese controllers have bluetooth support.
Wondering if they have Sega system V2 as I'd love to see house if the dead and now I can play point blank on PS1
i am looking to buy a retro console that can play some of these ps1, dreamcast, n64, mame, etc Any advice ???
Rasberry pi
If you're into modern arcade cabinets, I do a nice wall mounted build for Umbrella Arcades. There are full builds and stand-alone shells available. I'm also very much looking forward to building an FPGA-cade, hopefully soon.
Can to Run more consoles like PS2 gamecube wii dreamcast ???
No, and it will never. The absolute limit is N64.
is there any way to add more cores and push the limits of the hardware? as far as gamecube?
Not without additional hardware. It's already been discussed that N64 isn't possible on a single de10nano, but some discussion did occur in the past with breaking out the GPU functionality into a separate piece of hardware. the core issue is the clock speed and N64 and Gamecube exceed what can be provided on a single de10nano unit at this stage.
Odd question, but are there really any other public projects using the DE-10 Nano? Because otherwise the pedantics over "DE-10" vs "MiSTer" is really just pointless naggery, just like the "Linux" vs "GNU/Linux" pedantics.
Mister is the software. The DE-10 is the platform. MiSTer could be moved over to an upgraded FPGa board at some time.
There's a Replay port for the DE-10. The other PSX core uses that.
Emulation at Hardware level nice! But I guess those bios roms are illegal to share. Same problem with pcem
Awesome vid. Are there other FPGA options available to your knowledge?
There are a few, but they aren't as developed (i.e. they have smaller ecosystems).
There's the original MiST project, which MiSTer was forked from.
There's the Replay1, and soon Replay2.
There are a few others, but if I recall correctly, they have smaller libraries than the ones I listed.
I’m thinking about building one. Does it run N64? What’s the limit?
PS1 will likely be the end of the line. The N64 CPU has 2x the transistors (among other limitations) and is unlikely to fit inside the FPGA of the DE10
What 2.4 GHz controller do you recommend?
the 8bitdo Pro 2 is a great option. i own many of their controllers and they are all great, but this one is my favourite. i use it with their bluetooth dongle.
This is why i stay subbed despite coutless boring single boards, this one is not.
Sadly I just finished my pc, and I already own every console I want which I have recapped and fitted with flashcarts and ode solutions, as well as removable power supplies so in 60 years when I turn 83 this will be handy, because of my old hands can’t replace the components anymore or my son won’t XD because he picked up my hobbies. I’ll buy the version of this that will do ps10 and older boys
I'd like to see the Amiga and Spectrum Next running on it.
So good I own two of them, hehe.
I could analogue making a ps1 console in the near future
I'm actually curious how it would handle stuff like 8088/8086 PCs, or 286/386/486. Whether it could mimic a Sound Blaster on the systems. I know there are lots of other ways to emulate old PC support, like DOSBox or MAME, but I'm just curious if MisTer would do a good job. Especially with the small handful of ancient games that just don't want anything faster than an 8088.
There’s a 486 and I think some kind of pc-88 core although I don’t know much about them, check out the official mister forums or discord for more info.
There is the mt32pi and there's an off shoot of the mt32pi that works with the RPi Zero 2 w making for a very tiny addition to the MiSTer giving the 486 core MIDI synthesizer music.
Definitely a cool piece of hardware.