Makes me so angry as a wasps fan the absolute mismanagement of our club. Now left with no club and not really watching or invested in club rugby anymore. Why on earth were we signing players like Vincent Koch in our final year before we went bust. I would have rather us have fielded an entire team of academy youngsters and be near the bottom of the table, than not exist. Its so sad.
A very informative and deeply troubling video. Those findings do not suggest that the English Premiership has a stable future and some clubs, particularly Newcastle (low attendance high wage percentage, high liabilities) will be at risk of going bust.
Newcastle fan here, so much more could be done. There are 44 teams stretching from guisbrough to Alnwick that should be supporting and being supported by falcons That didn't include all the university teams from Durham, Northumbria, teesside, Newcastle, Sunderland It doesnt include the women's teams either. If they only got 20 supporters from each club they would sell out. Poor outreach from them and bad pricing
Excellent review of a very complex subject. I think we are right to worry about our game. I wonder if anyone has done similar investigations into the other unions. Would also be interesting to see how the RFU compares in some of the measures. Well done!
Quins fan, and yes it has to be said, it always seem impervious when at the Stoop for home games to the general financial state of the wider league (is it just the SW London effect, maybe?) A fair amount of that revenue is due to location and having the Big Game’s at Twickenham. Also the merchandise sales are higher than most other clubs. I also know their sponsors / partners revenue is slightly higher and often ‘higher calibre’ partners than most - usually a big airline (Etihad or Singapore) and some sort of wealth management funds etc. The ties between the City and Quins is deep and long-standing (financiers, law firms and so on). They will always be okay. They also own the Stoop outright (the freehold), which I think was last valued at circa £33 million. Welford Road was in 2018 value at £44m I think. Lots has been done since then so that must be edging £60m now. Commercial property asset wise they are sitting fine Tigers. So I’d have to look closer at the liabilities/assets figure, if that’s wholly accurate - what’s the yawning chasm that’s creating the £4.8m shortfall. Also.. attendance is pretty high to capacity at home for all matches, perhaps due to being in London and the (relative) ease of public transport to Twickenham and being walkable from the station.
Excellent video as usual, I think the real problem is lack of interest in the premiership and that's been the case from the beginning of professionalisation. Clubs tried to copy football without the following. I think rugby in England as always been a players game with most (not all) spectators being ex-players. When the game went professional the clubs were given a free reign by the RFU without any proper overseeing and I think this is a large contributor to the problems we have now. I'm not sure the premiership can survive losing another club or two. Worrying time ahead I think.
Great video. Would be inteteresting to see similar reports on other rugby nations. Need to drop or high value players slaries and maybe consider pro am contracts. Would loose players abroad but would benefit the youngsters. The England team would still be competative. For all of France's cash they havn't won a RWC.
Very interesting review and well presented. What we must not forget is the disastrous impact Covid had on the game and consequences that materialized with regard to Club revenues. Clubs are still coming to terms with that even today. Thank you
The amount of debt is a bit of a misnomer as essentially, the mass majority of the debt is owed to one individual, normally the benefactor owner. So in effect, it’s carried as debt for tax reasons, but is really something which they could just convert to equity.
I think quins could expand their stadium (which wouldn’t be cheap but doesn’t have to be a fortune) and the increased attendance would rise their revenue even higher.
Why do Sale struggle with their attendances, they are a very successful club that are usually there or thereabouts in the play offs every year so that figure actually surprised me 😱😱?
Alot of the drop off came after the move from Edgeley Park in Stockport to the AJ Bell. Edgeley Park's 10,600 capacity used to get packed out - the AJ Bell is much more awkward to get to logistically. That's one of the issues anyway.
Because similar to Rugby League the name does not inspire people to watch . Similar to the RL team that share the stadium. Salford they compete but don't pull the crowds . Surely if the RFU want to expand the game they need to look at having a representative team from a hotbed of the game like Cornwall and look at the fact that there is not really any representation of the game in Yorkshire or the West Midlands in the top flight . I mean with all due respect if Newcastle were relegated the list of teams to replace them are not going to be big teams or markets . Something radical is needed mergers or rebrands because the game is heading to a Crossroads
From an Exeter perspective...the issues we have with attendance are... 1. They keep jacking up the ticket prices. 2. A lot of the hardcore fans are actually put off by the change in atmosphere...loud music being played during breaks in play etc. They seem to be prioritising the daytrippers and taking long term fans for granted and given that most if not all Premiership rugby matches are on TNT nowadays, that's a problem.
Problem is if one more club goes bust, the league becomes unviable too. Discovery would demand a rebate on their already diminished TV deal. The clubs would also lose out on another set of matchday revenue…
Without doubt the financial state of the English domestic game needs revising however by the way that Premiership Rugby is structured i doubt the owners of the game could ever find concensus to change Debt of the clubs is an interesting point, especially as even though all clubs are carrying enormous debt as they are all in some way owned by extremely wealthy individuals who subsidise their clubs as a means of righting off tax or for the love of the game , their clubs debt is only an issue depending on who the debt is owed too and if it would ever be called in .
Very informative. Sarries debt must be partially due to building a new stand. Rugby does not seem to be in the conciousness of the London sporting public and the effort and cost required to get the extra % points to fill stadiums may be counter productive. Temp stands on the track could be enlarged given permission by the council and needs to be a concern in the future.
Not sure Saracens should be spending any money expanding their stadium. They can't get even get anywhere near a capacity crowd for a grudge match like Exeter...
No wonder the Premiership is dying to join and make a joint League with the URC. This is a good video. Could you make 1 on the URC and International teams.
Doesn't look very sustainable. The RFU should be investing more in grass-roots rugby. Not only will that improve the quality of English rugby but it would generate far more lifelong rugby fans. Truly dreadful mismanagement.
I agree it is not sustainable but the RFU does not control the premiership, it is run buy Premiership Rugby which is a private company and the clubs are representative members.
IMO every foreign company that wants to invest in, or buy an English club (any sport), should be taxed at a higher rate on their investment- for example a Saudi company or a wealthy Russian wants to invest in ManU has to add 20% of whatever they spend to directly support other UK sports (not the taxman). Personally I would also extend this to fees for TV rights, soccer in the UK has almost monopolistic status when it comes to coverage and marketing.
An Anglo Welsh competition would at least bring the League up to 12-14 teams and there would be some rivalries reignited. Overall though does it increase the commercial appeal to spectators and broadcasters . I think something will have to give . I dont think the Premiership will need more teams and despite the bravado the URC does not seem a natural fit for the long term and the situation has made the. European Champions Cup almost obsolete.
How the hell are Wasps Worcester and L Irish even considered worthy of readmission to level 2 rugby? How many creditors are still out of pocket from these clowns?
Leicester don't own their training ground. It is owned by a charitable trust (Old Wyggestonians Assoc) that leased the ground to Oadby Wyggestoninans RFC. This lease was changed to allow Leicester Tigers to be the prime lease holder on long lease and a deal to allow OWRFC to continue using the ground. The training building on the side is owned by the club as this was built on the adjacent industrial estate. Minimal asset value overall.
Can they just live within their means - if you have a 3 million loss cuts must be made to wages i.e cannot be supported at the current level or they must increase Revenue if this is not possible only cuts to wages is the only option - Why are they offering players money they cannot afford? then wonder why debt is increasing - If a merger with the URC happened and went great Revenue up 100% these owners will increase wages by 100% or more therefore in the same situation again
Bust if they don’t sort out some sort of terrestrial TV coverage . I’m a passive fan who enjoys the odd game but never going to subscribe - haven’t watched any rugby this season at all . Going to end up like league if you’re not careful .
League is my first love . I think the similarities are that club owners and the powers that be have failed to grow the game and put their own interest before the wider games
Is it time to rip it up and start again? Lets do away with the wage cap? do away with the RFU no players abroad rule, lets stop looking into clubs finances, so what if your sponsorship is massively over its actual value, let people actually put into clubs what they want. So what if there is an "arms race" and one club wins it most seasons, The way its done now, is not working! its time to roll the proverbial dice!
@@rugbyanalyst They punished Sarries for it, they won it most seasons (not all) at the time .its how you create genuine superstars and big clubs, enough RFU financial strangulation holds over the clubs!
@tristanmarshall1783 we don't want a merger with Premiership. Why must the urc save their sinking ship. The urc is growing fast and the best comp in the world.
Makes me so angry as a wasps fan the absolute mismanagement of our club. Now left with no club and not really watching or invested in club rugby anymore. Why on earth were we signing players like Vincent Koch in our final year before we went bust. I would have rather us have fielded an entire team of academy youngsters and be near the bottom of the table, than not exist. Its so sad.
Seen the news? We might be coming back
@@Camerooonify Lima Sopoaga too, the guy pocketed $1,000,000 just to play like Andy Goode on a shit day.
A very informative and deeply troubling video. Those findings do not suggest that the English Premiership has a stable future and some clubs, particularly Newcastle (low attendance high wage percentage, high liabilities) will be at risk of going bust.
Newcastle fan here, so much more could be done.
There are 44 teams stretching from guisbrough to Alnwick that should be supporting and being supported by falcons
That didn't include all the university teams from Durham, Northumbria, teesside, Newcastle, Sunderland
It doesnt include the women's teams either.
If they only got 20 supporters from each club they would sell out.
Poor outreach from them and bad pricing
That's really FASCINATING stuff. "The TH-cam video that launched a thousand podcast episodes" no doubt !
Excellent review of a very complex subject. I think we are right to worry about our game. I wonder if anyone has done similar investigations into the other unions. Would also be interesting to see how the RFU compares in some of the measures. Well done!
One thing I know is, Harlequins are desperate to expand the stadium, but they just don’t have the funds to do so
Yup, they could really capitalise on the money in london with more corporate hospitality and easily fill 20K stadium
@@rugbyanalyst 100% could fill a 20/25k stadium
The funds are a problem but the bigger problems is the locals and local council are against any expansion
Were my beloved London Irish paying more than 100% of rev in the last 3 years - that's disgraceful financial mismanagement
Quins fan, and yes it has to be said, it always seem impervious when at the Stoop for home games to the general financial state of the wider league (is it just the SW London effect, maybe?)
A fair amount of that revenue is due to location and having the Big Game’s at Twickenham. Also the merchandise sales are higher than most other clubs. I also know their sponsors / partners revenue is slightly higher and often ‘higher calibre’ partners than most - usually a big airline (Etihad or Singapore) and some sort of wealth management funds etc.
The ties between the City and Quins is deep and long-standing (financiers, law firms and so on).
They will always be okay. They also own the Stoop outright (the freehold), which I think was last valued at circa £33 million. Welford Road was in 2018 value at £44m I think. Lots has been done since then so that must be edging £60m now. Commercial property asset wise they are sitting fine Tigers.
So I’d have to look closer at the liabilities/assets figure, if that’s wholly accurate - what’s the yawning chasm that’s creating the £4.8m shortfall.
Also.. attendance is pretty high to capacity at home for all matches, perhaps due to being in London and the (relative) ease of public transport to Twickenham and being walkable from the station.
Great info, thanks
Excellent video as usual, I think the real problem is lack of interest in the premiership and that's been the case from the beginning of professionalisation. Clubs tried to copy football without the following. I think rugby in England as always been a players game with most (not all) spectators being ex-players. When the game went professional the clubs were given a free reign by the RFU without any proper overseeing and I think this is a large contributor to the problems we have now. I'm not sure the premiership can survive losing another club or two. Worrying time ahead I think.
Yes. And the older spectators from the amateur era are now dwindling away. And haven’t been replaced by a new generation.
Great video. Would be inteteresting to see similar reports on other rugby nations. Need to drop or high value players slaries and maybe consider pro am contracts. Would loose players abroad but would benefit the youngsters. The England team would still be competative. For all of France's cash they havn't won a RWC.
Fair to say that the attendance during 23/24 season (last one) increased ?
Leicester Tigers own a hotel and restaurant behind their main stand.
Great info
I thought they must have a meth lab.
Very interesting review and well presented. What we must not forget is the disastrous impact Covid had on the game and consequences that materialized with regard to Club revenues. Clubs are still coming to terms with that even today. Thank you
football managed to get through covid fine
This is part of Rugby now. Much appreciated
The amount of debt is a bit of a misnomer as essentially, the mass majority of the debt is owed to one individual, normally the benefactor owner. So in effect, it’s carried as debt for tax reasons, but is really something which they could just convert to equity.
Thanks
Great vid. We need to fill stadiums. Bums on seats. Create rugby lovers. It’s the best sport In the world after all
Thanks for a fascinating video- the Prem really is tittering on the brink of disappearing. 😮
Great analysis and to the point - What’s the RFU going to do about it
I think quins could expand their stadium (which wouldn’t be cheap but doesn’t have to be a fortune) and the increased attendance would rise their revenue even higher.
you always prepared well love your content
Trying to work out how Quinns are top of the overall, Saracens at 6, but both are really similar through the details
Why do Sale struggle with their attendances, they are a very successful club that are usually there or thereabouts in the play offs every year so that figure actually surprised me 😱😱?
I was led to believe that it was because Manchester is such a huge football city. I guess it’s difficult to compete with Man U and Man City
Alot of the drop off came after the move from Edgeley Park in Stockport to the AJ Bell.
Edgeley Park's 10,600 capacity used to get packed out - the AJ Bell is much more awkward to get to logistically. That's one of the issues anyway.
Sale population: 54,515
Leicester population: 373,399
Because similar to Rugby League the name does not inspire people to watch . Similar to the RL team that share the stadium. Salford they compete but don't pull the crowds .
Surely if the RFU want to expand the game they need to look at having a representative team from a hotbed of the game like Cornwall and look at the fact that there is not really any representation of the game in Yorkshire or the West Midlands in the top flight . I mean with all due respect if Newcastle were relegated the list of teams to replace them are not going to be big teams or markets . Something radical is needed mergers or rebrands because the game is heading to a Crossroads
From an Exeter perspective...the issues we have with attendance are...
1. They keep jacking up the ticket prices.
2. A lot of the hardcore fans are actually put off by the change in atmosphere...loud music being played during breaks in play etc. They seem to be prioritising the daytrippers and taking long term fans for granted and given that most if not all Premiership rugby matches are on TNT nowadays, that's a problem.
Yea ticket prices have shot up. Just bought tickets for Bath and cheapest ones even in the far corner are £69!
Problem is if one more club goes bust, the league becomes unviable too. Discovery would demand a rebate on their already diminished TV deal. The clubs would also lose out on another set of matchday revenue…
Without doubt the financial state of the English domestic game needs revising however by the way that Premiership Rugby is structured i doubt the owners of the game could ever find concensus to change
Debt of the clubs is an interesting point, especially as even though all clubs are carrying enormous debt as they are all in some way owned by extremely wealthy individuals who subsidise their clubs as a means of righting off tax or for the love of the game , their clubs debt is only an issue depending on who the debt is owed too and if it would ever be called in .
Very informative. Sarries debt must be partially due to building a new stand. Rugby does not seem to be in the conciousness of the London sporting public and the effort and cost required to get the extra % points to fill stadiums may be counter productive. Temp stands on the track could be enlarged given permission by the council and needs to be a concern in the future.
Not sure Saracens should be spending any money expanding their stadium. They can't get even get anywhere near a capacity crowd for a grudge match like Exeter...
Exeter is no grudge match for sarries 😂
@@06alepea181% capacity across the season...
Not exactly "nowhere near a sell out"
No wonder the Premiership is dying to join and make a joint League with the URC. This is a good video. Could you make 1 on the URC and International teams.
Revenue depends on ownership structure of the stadium.
Doesn't look very sustainable. The RFU should be investing more in grass-roots rugby. Not only will that improve the quality of English rugby but it would generate far more lifelong rugby fans. Truly dreadful mismanagement.
I agree it is not sustainable but the RFU does not control the premiership, it is run buy Premiership Rugby which is a private company and the clubs are representative members.
IMO every foreign company that wants to invest in, or buy an English club (any sport), should be taxed at a higher rate on their investment- for example a Saudi company or a wealthy Russian wants to invest in ManU has to add 20% of whatever they spend to directly support other UK sports (not the taxman). Personally I would also extend this to fees for TV rights, soccer in the UK has almost monopolistic status when it comes to coverage and marketing.
An Anglo Welsh competition would at least bring the League up to 12-14 teams and there would be some rivalries reignited.
Overall though does it increase the commercial appeal to spectators and broadcasters . I think something will have to give . I dont think the Premiership will need more teams and despite the bravado the URC does not seem a natural fit for the long term and the situation has made the. European Champions Cup almost obsolete.
Man UTD Shirt sponsorship is worth Pds100mn so looks like marketing strategy of rugby clubs very poor,with little revenue generating strategies.😮
Excellent video 👌🏻
How the hell are Wasps Worcester and L Irish even considered worthy of readmission to level 2 rugby? How many creditors are still out of pocket from these clowns?
Leicester don't own their training ground. It is owned by a charitable trust (Old Wyggestonians Assoc) that leased the ground to Oadby Wyggestoninans RFC. This lease was changed to allow Leicester Tigers to be the prime lease holder on long lease and a deal to allow OWRFC to continue using the ground. The training building on the side is owned by the club as this was built on the adjacent industrial estate. Minimal asset value overall.
Top info
Overpaid players and coaching staff was bound to cause bankruptcies.
Interesting stuff man. Not looking good...
UK so rich how is this possible?
The UKs finances have nothing to do with Rugby finances. The government do not fund Rugby or Football, they are not linked at all.
Can they just live within their means - if you have a 3 million loss cuts must be made to wages i.e cannot be supported at the current level or they must increase Revenue if this is not possible only cuts to wages is the only option - Why are they offering players money they cannot afford? then wonder why debt is increasing - If a merger with the URC happened and went great Revenue up 100% these owners will increase wages by 100% or more therefore in the same situation again
Bust if they don’t sort out some sort of terrestrial TV coverage . I’m a passive fan who enjoys the odd game but never going to subscribe - haven’t watched any rugby this season at all . Going to end up like league if you’re not careful .
League is my first love . I think the similarities are that club owners and the powers that be have failed to grow the game and put their own interest before the wider games
Is it time to rip it up and start again?
Lets do away with the wage cap? do away with the RFU no players abroad rule, lets stop looking into clubs finances, so what if your sponsorship is massively over its actual value, let people actually put into clubs what they want.
So what if there is an "arms race" and one club wins it most seasons,
The way its done now, is not working! its time to roll the proverbial dice!
That's definitely an option, survival of the fittest
@@rugbyanalyst They punished Sarries for it, they won it most seasons (not all) at the time .its how you create genuine superstars and big clubs, enough RFU financial strangulation holds over the clubs!
Thats why premiership will merge with urc soon. Its a sinking ship on its own
The arrogance to think URC want sloppy seconds - welsh do but ☘️🇮🇹🇿🇦🏴 say NO
@tristanmarshall1783 we don't want a merger with Premiership. Why must the urc save their sinking ship.
The urc is growing fast and the best comp in the world.
@@okkertgreyvenstein5765 The URC is certainly not the best comp win the world. The Top14 is a much better product.
We don’t want to merge with you either 😂
That's hilarious, as if the URC are just going to merge with a bankrupt second-rate league.