For anyone who's interested: Alfred BREN-dle (not Brendelle lol), Stephen HUFF, Murray Per-EYE-ya, Mitsuko oo-CHEE-da, John OG-don (not OD-gon lol), Benjamin GROVE-nor Sorry if I missed any... Edit: Jawn-Eve TEE-baw-day
Edit 2: Since this is pinned just wanted to say this is my attempt to use the most intuitive method to achieve what are generally regarded as acceptable pronunciations throughout the Anglosphere (they should work for US and Brit/Aus Eng) and not an attempt to achieve exact pronunciation/accent in the pianist's native language. 😁
For everyone saying this list is horrible/pretentious: Don't blame him, he's 16. It makes sense for him to have bad taste. Also the fact that Marc-Andre Hamelin, Katsaris, or Cziffra isn't on any of these lists is shameful.
Don't blame it on age or bad taste .. that is bad taste to say it like that. Each to their own even though i agree that missing cziffra is pretty depressing just dont watch these ranking vids if you tend to get angry over em
I am also not the biggest fan of Yuja Wang or Zimerman, but still, they have some absolutly phenomenal recordings. I find it a bit radical to just label them as horrible pianists. Listen to Yuja Wangs recording of the Prokoviefs 2nd Piano concerto. There's an unbelievable live performance where she plays the cadenza like I have never seen before. Or the ending of Chopins 4th ballade (just before the cadenza starts) by Zimerman. Or his Ravel Piano concerto, the 2nd movement. I also think that modern pianists focuse way to much on technique and perfection and some of that charme of the "old-school" pianists has been lost. But they should still be called musicians. "Someone has to teach them how to phrase" Come on... Thats a bit much isn't it? But to each their own, still like your videos
I also find it strange how he disregards Zimmermann because people copy his playing. What does Zimmermann have to do with the fact that pianist like him
@@markusengelstad2030 oh, the fact that's he's the most influential pianist alive is only the cherry on top of what, to me, is a rather infuriating sundae
Can’t say I agree with you but I enjoyed the video. It’s very interesting to hear by what standards you judge them and your explanations. Since I study piano, I guess I’ve always paid attention to the “textbook perfect” performers. I never heard someone criticize them for being ‘perfect’; it’s eye opening. Story: I thought it would be good to pay attention to recordings of composers playing their own music. I studied Rachmaninoff’s performance of his prelude in G and tried to copy the interpretation. My piano teacher immediately criticized me. I told him, “ but it’s the composer’s own performance.” His answer was basically to stick to modern standards and that Rachmaninoff was too idiosyncratic. Oh, of course he said not to copy other’s interpretations, do your own. But my gut feeling is study other interpretations before coming up with my own.
It is very important to study the interpretations of others. But in my opinion all performers should strive to express themselves through their music. I won't question the credentials or the capabilities of your teacher, but I must say that I disagree with their approach to interpretation. Rachmanninoff is one of the greatest pianists of all time because he saw things in music that no one else did - and there's hardly anyone these days willing to delve into the music deep enough for that for fear of idiosyncrasy. Please check out my new video on idiosyncratic performances - I think you'll enjoy it!
Although this is subjective, the most surprising thing I saw in this video was your ranking of Stephen Hough. I think he's a phenomenal pianist and he plays a lot of concertos really well. I recently saw him live playing the Tchaikovsky, and he definitely belongs on this list. Please listen to more of his playing
I would love to see you do a list on all the Chopin competition winners. This video was very interesting and true to your own opinions and I enjoyed hearing your insights.
Great video and a fun idea. The only names that I'd consider glaring omissions are Serkin and Hamelin (not to mention Moravec and Kocsis), but of course you'd be here forever if you had to include every pianist in history.
i feel like there's something to be said about Polish classical pianists that have turned up in the past century or so. we went from people like Rubinstein, Hoffmann, Paderewski, etc. etc. to Czerny-Stefanska, Harasiewicz, etc. etc. , to Zimerman, Anderszewski, Blechacz, etc. etc. quite an assortment of pianists there! likewise the collection of Polish composers are also quite interesting. you wouldn't have guessed people like Szymanowski, Penderecki, and Lutoslawski would come out of the same country that produced Chopin, Wienawski, and Godowsky (and Tausig)!
There are several pianistic giants missing from your well chosen list: Benno Moiseiwitsch, William Kapell, Zoltan Kocsis, Robert Casadesus, Abbey Simon, Grigory Ginzburg, Josef Lhévinne, Sergio Fiorentino, Mikhail Pletnev, Byron Janis, and Geza Anda come immediately to mind.
I completely agree with your comments on Rubenstein and Barenboim, never liked him and hope I won't start to soon. I'm pleasantly surprised you included Friedman. He has a very special Chopin nocturne which you've probably heard - free and manages to distill in recording the entire range of human whim, just spontaneous beautiful moments all throughout. Ouch when you plopped Pollini in the very bottom :/ for some reason I am partial to his Mozart and some Chopin, tbh a bit like rubenstein but of course worse Very good video, I enjoyed it a lot!
I must say that I'm biased against performers I don't like who are extremely influential! After all, why is one such as Trump so despised? Only because he is so widely followed!
@@RachManJohn True. Credit where we don't see it being due irritates us i guess Like in Yuja Wang's case, people (like my mother) consider her as a personal god of artistry when i must have completely missed the emotion somehow
I was prepared to make fun of you , but then , in your performance criteria , albeit a narrow one imo , the list is mostly coherent to the idea of " individuality , passion and standing out at all cost " . Omissions are gonna happen with lists like these since there are way way too many pianists . So good video even if I disagree a lot with some of the choices and am looking forward on how your opinions will change ( and believe me they will , a lot ) .
This would be pretty close to how I would rank these artists in terms of recorded performances that I like to listen to again and again after many decades. I'd probably bump Schnabel and Rubinstein down to the second tier, Ogdon, Lupu and Thibaudet down to the third tier, Gieseking up to the second tier and Haskil up to the third tier. Kapell, Sofronitsky, Busoni and Novaes definitely belong at least on the second tier. Don't know much about Grosvenor but will certainly listen to his recordings based upon your ranking. Thanks for an interesting video!
11:30 haven't listened enough to Hough to comment much (tho from the little that i _have_ heard im not terribly impressed with him). but i did see people comment favorably towards his recordings of Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude and Rhapsodie Espagnole (the former described as "spiritual" and "personal" and the latter as "the only good recording of the piece by far"). would like to hear your recommendations for both pieces so that i may perhaps judge for myself!
Definitely an interesting approach. I published a pianists tier list as well on on my meme page a few months ago. Now I'm glad that we agree on Cortot, Hofmann and Lipatti, but to me those three and Sofronitsky are beyond any other pianists I've heard - although I may put Horowitz in the top now. I think the only places I disagree strongly are Rubinstein and Gilels. Rubinstein's playing is highly original and spirited and I appreciate his interpretations but they never appealed to me. Gilels on the other hand has a Rach 3 rivalling Horowitz's, and I listen to Horowitz's Ann Arbor 30/04/78 recording on an almost daily basis. Gilels had a famous rivalry with Richter, and obviously in terms of repertoire Richter had a bigger repertoire than anybody else in recording history, and part of his magic is making an almost perfect interpretation out of every single piece he plays. However, Richter only reaches the "beyond", as I like to think, in some of works he played, like the chamber music of Brahms and Franck, Franck's PCF, Prokofiev 6, WTC, late Beethoven etc. Of course, being Richter, everything else is still probably better than anybody else on any list. However, Gilels brings a magical element in almost everything he plays, and in the limited repertoire Gilels shared wit Richter, I almost invariably put Gilels first. Prokofiev 8 was written for him, and he brings an absolute fire to it. Ravel's Pavane, difficult as it is, has the most delicate soft opening that I never thought was possible - I don't know if Lipatti could've done that. His Chopin G Minor Ballade is just stronger, and his late Beethoven is both more structured and more inspired. Now even without Richter's phenomenal range of repertoire I wouldn't say that Gilels is a better pianist, but I've always thought of them as equals who excel in different ways. I get exactly your distaste of Zimerman, and I've had so many friends express the same hatred for his Chopin Ballades. His recordings on DG are far too restrained and perfectionist, I barely listen to them myself, but he isn't always like that. The early recordings from the 80s of the F Minor Ballade and both of the Sonatas were played with so much spirit and energy. Even in 2004, he played a recital in Princeton including Beethoven Op.110 and Bacewicz's 2nd Sonata. The Beethoven was beautiful, but the Bacewicz, a piece he later released on DG - he already brought fire to the studio recording (rarely), and that live performance was one of the most enigmatic and lively performances of anything I've ever heard. I must say tho, his Funérailles is probably the one recording out of everybody on this list I could never listen to. Also Hough should be at the bottom of every list. I respect him as a scholar and many of the things he does, but he has the most boring, unoriginal and uninspired, dull recordings on almost every recording I've listened to. Wouldn't say the same about Barenboim tho, his Beethoven is actually very good. However despite his humanitarian work I don't listen to them out of principle, because he cheated on du Pré even before she died.
Some thoughts, - glad you agree with me on Barenboim, Schiff, Kissin, Trifonov ... and just that general style of popular modern artists. - where's Peter Serkin?? (best Beethoven sonatas imo) Ivan Moravec? Ivo Porgorelich? Batiashvili? (lol). Eh, no point in naming all the other possibilities. - I agree Zimmerman is too perfectionist. Michelangeli is the same way, but somehow I much prefer Michelangeli... his brand of perfectionist feels more to honor the music/composer rather than to flaunt. - Mozart is my favorite composer of all time. His music is so comparatively easy but famous pianists always have the toughest time with it. Most famous pianists known for playing Mozart just play it dainty and pretty... because that's what Mozart is in the public's head. It's so hard to find a good Mozart recording with risk and personality. Interestingly enough Leonard Bernstein does a pretty good job lol. At some point you realize that every recording pianist has the technical skill to play anything... It becomes more about finding a good personality/interpretation. Exception is the beasts like Brahms 2 or Beethoven 29 where the pianist really does need that otherwordly technique.
A very enjoyable exercise ... I don't agree with some of it of course. But I think it's not just a question of how the artists play, it's about how listeners experience them. What effect does a particular artist have on me? Which is why just judging on merely technique or a particular interpretation isn't sufficient. I'm sorry you miss out on so many wonderful contemporary artists like the Turkish-French pianist and composer Fazil Say ....
Me omw to comment that this list is objectively wrong and RachManJohn's tastes are cringe But like seriously, such comments are way too irritating. One may not agree with some of the ranking choices but nice video!
Oh well there were bound to be some disagreements, but to the overall shape of this lost i greatly agree. I think would have put Zimmerman maybe one or two places up since he has a good Chopin sonata 2 movement 4 but that's about it. And i don't think i would have put lang this high, although your argument about personality is quite potent. Sad to see no Nyiregiházi, or even Godowsky but i guess this list would look way differently if we chose the pianists. Good video as always, have a good day everyone! Edit: great background music! Alkan has been my favourite before and probably will be again some day
@@GICM Zimmermann has some good recordings, but the difference with others is that only some of his recordings are great, but not all, or most, as opposed to others such as Cortot (or Nyiregiházi in my opinion, and k know Rachmanjohn's as well).
@@thatfish2252 i did, they were the first versions inever listened to. I've found flawed, but utterly grand versions of the pieces by others now, that i heavily prefer.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but great heavens Zimerman does belong! Have you ever given his liszt sonata a listen? Great vid all in all!
Dude, Arrau is like triple S tier, but I’ll give you time to mature into that opinion, but Argerich is hot air wafting out of a garbage truck and is middling at best, I tend to agree with all of the others you took a major dump 💩 on 😂 and of course Barenboim is just a sewage leak coming out of oo-CHEE-da’s factory at the GROVE-nor recycling facility. Make another list with all of the other pianists that were mentioned in the comment section for a better video. Anyway, thanks for the laughs.
Very entertaining video, although I find myself disagreeing with you in some parts ( That is largely unavoidable though). Just out of curiosity: where would you put Lugansky and Aimard in your list? I find these two to be really solid performers that pretty much never have a "bad" recording.
I think it's a nice and reasonable list. I could have made some changes, but I can say that my list would be close as well. For example, I don't like Zimmerman, Barenboim, Pollini very much either. There are people who are not on the list but should be high ranks: Busoni, Backhaus, Lhevinne, Sauer etc.
nice list but zimerman (even if you dont agree on chopin ballades) has the best recording in almost all the pieces he played, his beethoven concerti are flawless, not to talk about liszt recordings and debussy preludes
@@MisterPathetique yup , I think he is best in Liszt , Brahms and Debussy . His Chopin concerto tho, the one where he manages everything is way way too fussy for my taste .
You mentioned a lot of times how music is supposed to make us feel something, for example when you claimed that Zimmerman's or Pollini's Chopin doesn't make someone feel anything, implying that this "feeling" is a virtue in your book. But I am not sure that this measurement scala of quality works. "Feel something" - that is something way too vague to really consider. You listen to Pollini and Zimmerman playing Chopin - and even if you feel disgust it is still a feeling. The problem is that if you approach a performance with an expectation of some concrete "feeling" you will miss what this performance has to offer. Perhaps Chopin's music can in fact be disgusting, regardless of who is performing it. You also could argue that eg Prokofiev's war sonatas aren't supposed to make you feel happy or relaxed, they are quite dissonant, disstressed, harsh, capturing the spirit of the environment they were written in. And perhaps the same thing might be true for Chopin - you make a big claim that Pollini and Zimmerman don't make you feel anything, but as already mentioned even this feeling of dislike is, well, a feeling and an opinion. It's an error in reasoning. Overall, good effort but I feel like the list isn't internally coherent, not even from a subjective point of view but from a logical, impersonal point of view.
As a massive fan of Zimmerman I would like to hear more in depth as to why you dislike his playing of the ballades rather then it just being "unmusical". The phrasing and crystal clear voicing are excellent in my opinion, but the playing is certainly not lacking in character or bland in any way either. It is fair to say his liberty taken with rubato is little compared to Horowitz say but fundamentally, his recordings of the ballades are a gold standard of Chopin playing coming from a previous Chopin competition winner. And I would also like to say that simply because his way of playing those ballades has "tainted" the generations of professional recordings after it, is it not a testimony to the greatness of it that pianists that I assume are all more talented than you and I would take inspiration from it? Just a criticism but I appreciate this video none the less. To each their own, I wish nothing but luck with your TH-cam career.
Zimerman is a micromanager, that's usually the biggest problem with his interpretations. His approach didn't work equally well in every repertoire he played. Indeed, he got good results in Chopin, but in Schubert? Nah. Some would call him a perfectionist, I prefer bringing a bit more nuance by saying that he's also fussy and mannered. Although I suspect our dear RachManJohn trashed Zimerman only for the purpose of provocation.
@@RachManJohn I would like to also point out that Chopin has been quoted as saying that simplicity is the highest goal. If it helps to see Zimerman is a better light think that he chases the integrity Chopin intended. The passion of Richter is not present but it is a stylistic difference and it can be appreciated even if not to your liking.
side note - i don't think you've talked about Moiseiwitsch in any your videos yet, would love to hear your opinion on him someday especially since he's also quite old school
I'm afraid this video is costing you lots of angry subscribers, especially for Zimerman and Yuja, eheh. I personally like this video because you've been very onest, although I don't share some of your choises, for example.... yeah, I don't like the spot that you've reserved to Zimerman and Pollini, but, nevermind, it's taste, and I respect that!
@@RachManJohn actually, I read your rationale for why u don't like Zimerman, and I actually partially agree with you. Just curious, do you also view Lugansky in the same light when it comes to his Rach recordings?
@@barcarolleenjoyer Frankly I like his Rachmanninoff far more than Zimerman's Chopin. It has a fair bit of verve and is more adventurous while remaining fairly sensible.
The first red flag came when you placed Argerich over Hess. You second sin, in my opinion, was putting Brendan over Arrau, a decision I believe Brendel would have opposed. The third offense follows the second quite promptly and it is placing Fischer on the middling tier. At the least, he belongs in the good tier. Directly after, you putted Gilels below Argerich and Brendel? That’s ludicrous! Another decision I question is putting Haskil below good tier, another disservice just like what you did to Fischer. Thereafter, I was further saddened by the fact that you placed Zimmerman in the “don’t belong” tier. You should hear him in concert! He has matured so much and I would even argue he is there in the league of Kempff and Michelangeli. And definitely above Kissin and Lang Lang?! So, you continued on pretty well for a while. I slightly disagree with your judgement regarding Pires and Uchida, if it were me, I would just put them on the middling tier. Thibaudet (et is pronounced btw) belongs at most in the good tier. As much as I am a big fan of the French school of playing (and trust me I am), there’s much better Ravels out there. Check out Perlemuter, Francois, Hass, Entremont, Gelber, Doyen, or Long. Ok next! Trifonov in my humble opinion, belongs in the not belong tier. He’s not that much better than Yuga Wang! If I have to reflect over the tierlist as a whole all over again, among the many things that trouble me, seeing Lang Lang’s face next to Fischer and Haskil is probably what troubles me most. I just can’t!
Oh yes, surely you must know Chopin better than the Chopin Competition judges. Haha. Zimerman is a gold standard to many pianists when it comes to Chopin. Not to mention, that these judges are world-class pianists, and watching your recordings on TH-cam makes me wonder if you practice more than 3 minutes a day
No Sofronitsky, Berman, Lamond, no Tozer, Sultanov, Ovchinnikov, Moravec... no Pogorelich?? This list had me white as a ghost with horror/shock. Just goes to show how subjective these things are.
Can i know your address so i can buy a ticket, come to your place while you're sleeping and use your pc to put Richter in the S Tier? I can't sleep knowing he's below Rubinstein and Gould...Hofmann after Gould, HOW! And poor Arrau, what did he do to you! Also Fischer and Haskil under Andsens? WTF And Argerich so high? Don't get me wrong, i love her playing but...her repertoire is so limited...Oh and Gieseking! He was playing pretty straight but his colours....jeez! And Pires...did she play ANYTHING in a more than forgettable way? About Y. Wang, i would partly disagree with you, of course if Beethoven is your main comparison point ok, but i remember the only time i went to one of her concerts she did a selection of Scriabin and it was amazing. I would probably put her before Lang2 but that's just me able to ignore the way she dresses (it's music, i don't care if you really wanna dress like a 19yo going to a club althoug yeah, it's juvenile, it's vulgar, it's taking away attention from the main point of your job and yeah, makes me think of fucking while i don't necessarily wanna think about it lol) Also Baremboim to my mind could go almost at the bottom of the list, although maybe Pires would take that spot, she's completely tasteless and useless.
This list is just pretentiousness for the sake of pretentiousness. And I'm only commenting to feed the YT algorithm since I love your content (other than this preposterous list of course) :P
Looks like a solid ranking. Mostly agree with you, but Kissin and Arrau were underrated, Argerich was overrated. Kissin is at least Gillels level. Arrau is at least Brendel level. And Bang Bang are you kidding me? The fact that you say bang bang is getting better reveals the poor taste dude. 😂 How dare you put BangBang on the list to compare with these guys.
I don't consider Lisitsa to be on anyone of credence's top list. Cliburn, maybe. But like I said in the video, I took these from external sources to avoid biases
@@jacksonsanford9214 Lisitsa is F tier. I don't see much musicality in her and even her technique is overrated. Cliburn is B tier. Excellent but I don't get enough personality from him to make him truly great in my opinion.
@@RachManJohn surprised, I would have put listitsa higher, her rubatos are always smooth, and she plays things like Rach 2 exceptionally well imo. Cliburn, seems cool but I can’t seem to find any definitive characteristics about him versus other pianists other than that he won Tchaikovsky comp at politically convenient time lol. I would put him just above F tier
„Its not Chopin and not good music“ I guess, because you play the piano at a very mediocre level you feel entiteled to have such an opinion. Very funny
Argerich overrated, shallow playing most of the time. But Brendel is the most mannered, irritating pianist ever. Brendel same tier as Richter ? Ahahaha, sad. Haskil, one of the musical genius of the XXth century, middling ? Did your ever listen to her recordings ? Look into my channel you will find a Brahms intermezzo by her, please listen to it. You will never heard anyone playing like this. In the 20's her repertoire was huge, and she was astounding in Rachmaninov concertos they say. She didn't record much ! Lang Lang the clown better than Haskil, you trolling hard. Sofronitsky, Pletnev, Neuhaus, Feinberg not there but Pires is? Ok, i respect your opinion, but your taste is questionable to say the least.
@@tommyward3950 for me she brings a lot of passion and sensitivity - maybe you just have that notion of her that prevents you from enjoying any of her interpretations
![ร้อยพ่อพันแม่ - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY2pNYASEbg/mqdefault.jpg)
For anyone who's interested: Alfred BREN-dle (not Brendelle lol), Stephen HUFF, Murray Per-EYE-ya, Mitsuko oo-CHEE-da, John OG-don (not OD-gon lol), Benjamin GROVE-nor
Sorry if I missed any... Edit: Jawn-Eve TEE-baw-day
Haha! Stupid Australian me is bound to mess up those foreign tricky names ;)
Edit 2: Since this is pinned just wanted to say this is my attempt to use the most intuitive method to achieve what are generally regarded as acceptable pronunciations throughout the Anglosphere (they should work for US and Brit/Aus Eng) and not an attempt to achieve exact pronunciation/accent in the pianist's native language. 😁
@@RachManJohn haha good you're being cool about it 👍
@@subplantant I wouldn't be so critical of others if I wasn't ready to take it myself ;)
And the pedant in me is forced to add: Rubiinstein, with an 'i' and not an 'e'.
[04:22]
For everyone saying this list is horrible/pretentious: Don't blame him, he's 16. It makes sense for him to have bad taste. Also the fact that Marc-Andre Hamelin, Katsaris, or Cziffra isn't on any of these lists is shameful.
Don't blame it on age or bad taste .. that is bad taste to say it like that. Each to their own even though i agree that missing cziffra is pretty depressing
just dont watch these ranking vids if you tend to get angry over em
I compiled this list from three sources, as stated in this video. There was no personal taste to it except for my ranking of the pianists provided!
@@RachManJohn By the way, in order to anger more people, is it a possibility to make a tier list for symphonic works? I would really love that
@@jamiehaenisch8190 Mahler A+, Mozart C, Chopin F. Done and dusted!
@@RachManJohn admittedly am listening to mahler now
but mozart that is AN INSULT
I am also not the biggest fan of Yuja Wang or Zimerman, but still, they have some absolutly phenomenal recordings. I find it a bit radical to just label them as horrible pianists.
Listen to Yuja Wangs recording of the Prokoviefs 2nd Piano concerto. There's an unbelievable live performance where she plays the cadenza like I have never seen before.
Or the ending of Chopins 4th ballade (just before the cadenza starts) by Zimerman. Or his Ravel Piano concerto, the 2nd movement.
I also think that modern pianists focuse way to much on technique and perfection and some of that charme of the "old-school" pianists has been lost. But they should still be called musicians.
"Someone has to teach them how to phrase" Come on... Thats a bit much isn't it?
But to each their own, still like your videos
I also find it strange how he disregards Zimmermann because people copy his playing. What does Zimmermann have to do with the fact that pianist like him
Comparing pianists is the worse thing a naive ignorant like him can do, it harms classical music so much.
Zimmerman has the gold standard for the four Chopin ballads. His Beethoven is also phenomenal, this young man has lost his mind
@@thatfish2252 is he nuts? No, he's insane!
@@markusengelstad2030 oh, the fact that's he's the most influential pianist alive is only the cherry on top of what, to me, is a rather infuriating sundae
Can’t say I agree with you but I enjoyed the video. It’s very interesting to hear by what standards you judge them and your explanations. Since I study piano, I guess I’ve always paid attention to the “textbook perfect” performers. I never heard someone criticize them for being ‘perfect’; it’s eye opening. Story: I thought it would be good to pay attention to recordings of composers playing their own music. I studied Rachmaninoff’s performance of his prelude in G and tried to copy the interpretation. My piano teacher immediately criticized me. I told him, “ but it’s the composer’s own performance.” His answer was basically to stick to modern standards and that Rachmaninoff was too idiosyncratic. Oh, of course he said not to copy other’s interpretations, do your own. But my gut feeling is study other interpretations before coming up with my own.
It is very important to study the interpretations of others. But in my opinion all performers should strive to express themselves through their music. I won't question the credentials or the capabilities of your teacher, but I must say that I disagree with their approach to interpretation. Rachmanninoff is one of the greatest pianists of all time because he saw things in music that no one else did - and there's hardly anyone these days willing to delve into the music deep enough for that for fear of idiosyncrasy. Please check out my new video on idiosyncratic performances - I think you'll enjoy it!
Although this is subjective, the most surprising thing I saw in this video was your ranking of Stephen Hough. I think he's a phenomenal pianist and he plays a lot of concertos really well. I recently saw him live playing the Tchaikovsky, and he definitely belongs on this list. Please listen to more of his playing
Pretensions ratings. I hate so much of it.
Fantastic video. Loved it
I would love to see you do a list on all the Chopin competition winners. This video was very interesting and true to your own opinions and I enjoyed hearing your insights.
I'm thinking of doing that very video
@@RachManJohn Any updates?
Great candid selections, Rachman! Also, I really liked those four etudes playing in the background ... 🙂
Great video and a fun idea. The only names that I'd consider glaring omissions are Serkin and Hamelin (not to mention Moravec and Kocsis), but of course you'd be here forever if you had to include every pianist in history.
well in case you weren't already aware i'm pretty sure the list itself comes from the articles in the description, not of his own choices
seems incredible that there could be any list of greatest pianists of all time that doesn't include Marc-André Hamelin
he probably has his own tier
MAH probably High B or Lower A tier for me
i feel like there's something to be said about Polish classical pianists that have turned up in the past century or so. we went from people like Rubinstein, Hoffmann, Paderewski, etc. etc. to Czerny-Stefanska, Harasiewicz, etc. etc. , to Zimerman, Anderszewski, Blechacz, etc. etc. quite an assortment of pianists there! likewise the collection of Polish composers are also quite interesting. you wouldn't have guessed people like Szymanowski, Penderecki, and Lutoslawski would come out of the same country that produced Chopin, Wienawski, and Godowsky (and Tausig)!
There are several pianistic giants missing from your well chosen list: Benno Moiseiwitsch, William Kapell, Zoltan Kocsis, Robert Casadesus, Abbey Simon, Grigory Ginzburg, Josef Lhévinne, Sergio Fiorentino, Mikhail Pletnev, Byron Janis, and Geza Anda come immediately to mind.
Stephen Hough may not be one of the greatest living pianists, but I find myself returning to his works very often.
I completely agree with your comments on Rubenstein and Barenboim, never liked him and hope I won't start to soon. I'm pleasantly surprised you included Friedman. He has a very special Chopin nocturne which you've probably heard - free and manages to distill in recording the entire range of human whim, just spontaneous beautiful moments all throughout.
Ouch when you plopped Pollini in the very bottom :/ for some reason I am partial to his Mozart and some Chopin, tbh a bit like rubenstein but of course worse
Very good video, I enjoyed it a lot!
I must say that I'm biased against performers I don't like who are extremely influential! After all, why is one such as Trump so despised? Only because he is so widely followed!
@@RachManJohn True. Credit where we don't see it being due irritates us i guess
Like in Yuja Wang's case, people (like my mother) consider her as a personal god of artistry when i must have completely missed the emotion somehow
I was prepared to make fun of you , but then , in your performance criteria , albeit a narrow one imo , the list is mostly coherent to the idea of " individuality , passion and standing out at all cost " . Omissions are gonna happen with lists like these since there are way way too many pianists . So good video even if I disagree a lot with some of the choices and am looking forward on how your opinions will change ( and believe me they will , a lot ) .
This would be pretty close to how I would rank these artists in terms of recorded performances that I like to listen to again and again after many decades. I'd probably bump Schnabel and Rubinstein down to the second tier, Ogdon, Lupu and Thibaudet down to the third tier, Gieseking up to the second tier and Haskil up to the third tier. Kapell, Sofronitsky, Busoni and Novaes definitely belong at least on the second tier. Don't know much about Grosvenor but will certainly listen to his recordings based upon your ranking. Thanks for an interesting video!
11:30 haven't listened enough to Hough to comment much (tho from the little that i _have_ heard im not terribly impressed with him). but i did see people comment favorably towards his recordings of Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude and Rhapsodie Espagnole (the former described as "spiritual" and "personal" and the latter as "the only good recording of the piece by far"). would like to hear your recommendations for both pieces so that i may perhaps judge for myself!
Definitely an interesting approach. I published a pianists tier list as well on on my meme page a few months ago. Now I'm glad that we agree on Cortot, Hofmann and Lipatti, but to me those three and Sofronitsky are beyond any other pianists I've heard - although I may put Horowitz in the top now.
I think the only places I disagree strongly are Rubinstein and Gilels. Rubinstein's playing is highly original and spirited and I appreciate his interpretations but they never appealed to me.
Gilels on the other hand has a Rach 3 rivalling Horowitz's, and I listen to Horowitz's Ann Arbor 30/04/78 recording on an almost daily basis. Gilels had a famous rivalry with Richter, and obviously in terms of repertoire Richter had a bigger repertoire than anybody else in recording history, and part of his magic is making an almost perfect interpretation out of every single piece he plays. However, Richter only reaches the "beyond", as I like to think, in some of works he played, like the chamber music of Brahms and Franck, Franck's PCF, Prokofiev 6, WTC, late Beethoven etc. Of course, being Richter, everything else is still probably better than anybody else on any list. However, Gilels brings a magical element in almost everything he plays, and in the limited repertoire Gilels shared wit Richter, I almost invariably put Gilels first. Prokofiev 8 was written for him, and he brings an absolute fire to it. Ravel's Pavane, difficult as it is, has the most delicate soft opening that I never thought was possible - I don't know if Lipatti could've done that. His Chopin G Minor Ballade is just stronger, and his late Beethoven is both more structured and more inspired. Now even without Richter's phenomenal range of repertoire I wouldn't say that Gilels is a better pianist, but I've always thought of them as equals who excel in different ways.
I get exactly your distaste of Zimerman, and I've had so many friends express the same hatred for his Chopin Ballades. His recordings on DG are far too restrained and perfectionist, I barely listen to them myself, but he isn't always like that. The early recordings from the 80s of the F Minor Ballade and both of the Sonatas were played with so much spirit and energy. Even in 2004, he played a recital in Princeton including Beethoven Op.110 and Bacewicz's 2nd Sonata. The Beethoven was beautiful, but the Bacewicz, a piece he later released on DG - he already brought fire to the studio recording (rarely), and that live performance was one of the most enigmatic and lively performances of anything I've ever heard. I must say tho, his Funérailles is probably the one recording out of everybody on this list I could never listen to.
Also Hough should be at the bottom of every list. I respect him as a scholar and many of the things he does, but he has the most boring, unoriginal and uninspired, dull recordings on almost every recording I've listened to.
Wouldn't say the same about Barenboim tho, his Beethoven is actually very good. However despite his humanitarian work I don't listen to them out of principle, because he cheated on du Pré even before she died.
Some thoughts,
- glad you agree with me on Barenboim, Schiff, Kissin, Trifonov ... and just that general style of popular modern artists.
- where's Peter Serkin?? (best Beethoven sonatas imo) Ivan Moravec? Ivo Porgorelich? Batiashvili? (lol). Eh, no point in naming all the other possibilities.
- I agree Zimmerman is too perfectionist. Michelangeli is the same way, but somehow I much prefer Michelangeli... his brand of perfectionist feels more to honor the music/composer rather than to flaunt.
- Mozart is my favorite composer of all time. His music is so comparatively easy but famous pianists always have the toughest time with it. Most famous pianists known for playing Mozart just play it dainty and pretty... because that's what Mozart is in the public's head. It's so hard to find a good Mozart recording with risk and personality. Interestingly enough Leonard Bernstein does a pretty good job lol.
At some point you realize that every recording pianist has the technical skill to play anything... It becomes more about finding a good personality/interpretation. Exception is the beasts like Brahms 2 or Beethoven 29 where the pianist really does need that otherwordly technique.
Thankyou for your comment! I drew my lists exclusively from online sources to try to give an unbiased result... I agree with much of the rest, however
Where you would put Seong-Jin Cho?
A very enjoyable exercise ... I don't agree with some of it of course. But I think it's not just a question of how the artists play, it's about how listeners experience them. What effect does a particular artist have on me? Which is why just judging on merely technique or a particular interpretation isn't sufficient. I'm sorry you miss out on so many wonderful contemporary artists like the Turkish-French pianist and composer Fazil Say ....
Zimerman and Hough under the 'don't belong' category 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
But yeah, it's your evaluation, so it's fine.
Sorry hahaha!
love the absolute insane pronunciations of the names
I hope that your playing is way beyond the “decent middling” pianists…
Ha!
Me omw to comment that this list is objectively wrong and RachManJohn's tastes are cringe
But like seriously, such comments are way too irritating. One may not agree with some of the ranking choices but nice video!
My opinions are always objectively wrong. I have never had a correct thought in my life!
the man takes no prisoners
swap richter and gould 🙏🏻. great list though. (just my opinion)
I love your channel! How about doing a CLASSICAL CONDUCTOR TIER LIST?
Really enjoyed the video, disagreed with yuja wang and richter (I think he deserves top tier at least) but where is alicia de laroccha?!?
Oh well there were bound to be some disagreements, but to the overall shape of this lost i greatly agree.
I think would have put Zimmerman maybe one or two places up since he has a good Chopin sonata 2 movement 4 but that's about it. And i don't think i would have put lang this high, although your argument about personality is quite potent.
Sad to see no Nyiregiházi, or even Godowsky but i guess this list would look way differently if we chose the pianists.
Good video as always, have a good day everyone!
Edit: great background music! Alkan has been my favourite before and probably will be again some day
i would put Zimerman at least B for his Brahms PC 2. and maybe Chopin PCs too, tho i don't even like Chopin PCs to begin with.
@@GICM Zimmermann has some good recordings, but the difference with others is that only some of his recordings are great, but not all, or most, as opposed to others such as Cortot (or Nyiregiházi in my opinion, and k know Rachmanjohn's as well).
Check out Zimmerman's recording of Chopin's four ballades, it is simply flawless
@@thatfish2252 lol it is in fact those recordings that he hates
@@thatfish2252 i did, they were the first versions inever listened to. I've found flawed, but utterly grand versions of the pieces by others now, that i heavily prefer.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but great heavens Zimerman does belong! Have you ever given his liszt sonata a listen? Great vid all in all!
I've heard it, like basically everything else he does it's sanitised and plastic and I cannot stand it. Sorry to disappoint!
@RachManJohn No worries, great vid overall! Keep up with the great content!
@@evanwyatt2862 I appreciate your respect. You have a lovely day :)
@@RachManJohn Same to you kind sir!
Dude, Arrau is like triple S tier, but I’ll give you time to mature into that opinion, but Argerich is hot air wafting out of a garbage truck and is middling at best, I tend to agree with all of the others you took a major dump 💩 on 😂 and of course Barenboim is just a sewage leak coming out of oo-CHEE-da’s factory at the GROVE-nor recycling facility. Make another list with all of the other pianists that were mentioned in the comment section for a better video. Anyway, thanks for the laughs.
Anyway even the lowest here is a great pianist but i would have rank differently but where is cziffra
Where would you rate your compatriot Leslie Howard with his complete Liszt recordings?
Very entertaining video, although I find myself disagreeing with you in some parts ( That is largely unavoidable though). Just out of curiosity: where would you put Lugansky and Aimard in your list? I find these two to be really solid performers that pretty much never have a "bad" recording.
Lugansky is high A tier. I admit I have not heard of Aimard! I must look into them further...
I think it's a nice and reasonable list. I could have made some changes, but I can say that my list would be close as well. For example, I don't like Zimmerman, Barenboim, Pollini very much either. There are people who are not on the list but should be high ranks: Busoni, Backhaus, Lhevinne, Sauer etc.
nice list but zimerman (even if you dont agree on chopin ballades) has the best recording in almost all the pieces he played, his beethoven concerti are flawless, not to talk about liszt recordings and debussy preludes
No. Zimerman has made great recordings, as well as bad recordings, period. Don't be a cultist.
there are plenty of people who play the Beethoven concerti far better than Zimerman
@@MisterPathetique yup , I think he is best in Liszt , Brahms and Debussy . His Chopin concerto tho, the one where he manages everything is way way too fussy for my taste .
We are not gona talk about his rach2?
You mentioned a lot of times how music is supposed to make us feel something, for example when you claimed that Zimmerman's or Pollini's Chopin doesn't make someone feel anything, implying that this "feeling" is a virtue in your book. But I am not sure that this measurement scala of quality works. "Feel something" - that is something way too vague to really consider. You listen to Pollini and Zimmerman playing Chopin - and even if you feel disgust it is still a feeling. The problem is that if you approach a performance with an expectation of some concrete "feeling" you will miss what this performance has to offer. Perhaps Chopin's music can in fact be disgusting, regardless of who is performing it. You also could argue that eg Prokofiev's war sonatas aren't supposed to make you feel happy or relaxed, they are quite dissonant, disstressed, harsh, capturing the spirit of the environment they were written in. And perhaps the same thing might be true for Chopin - you make a big claim that Pollini and Zimmerman don't make you feel anything, but as already mentioned even this feeling of dislike is, well, a feeling and an opinion. It's an error in reasoning. Overall, good effort but I feel like the list isn't internally coherent, not even from a subjective point of view but from a logical, impersonal point of view.
Surprised to see you didn't put Claudio Arrau in the top tier.
As a massive fan of Zimmerman I would like to hear more in depth as to why you dislike his playing of the ballades rather then it just being "unmusical". The phrasing and crystal clear voicing are excellent in my opinion, but the playing is certainly not lacking in character or bland in any way either. It is fair to say his liberty taken with rubato is little compared to Horowitz say but fundamentally, his recordings of the ballades are a gold standard of Chopin playing coming from a previous Chopin competition winner. And I would also like to say that simply because his way of playing those ballades has "tainted" the generations of professional recordings after it, is it not a testimony to the greatness of it that pianists that I assume are all more talented than you and I would take inspiration from it? Just a criticism but I appreciate this video none the less. To each their own, I wish nothing but luck with your TH-cam career.
well, considering the kind of Ballade playing that he likes are like Cortot and Hambourg i don't think it's hard to see why he dislikes Zimerman
Zimerman is a micromanager, that's usually the biggest problem with his interpretations. His approach didn't work equally well in every repertoire he played. Indeed, he got good results in Chopin, but in Schubert? Nah.
Some would call him a perfectionist, I prefer bringing a bit more nuance by saying that he's also fussy and mannered.
Although I suspect our dear RachManJohn trashed Zimerman only for the purpose of provocation.
Perhaps at some point I'll release a video called "Why I hate Zimerman (and similar pianists)." That'll clear up some things!
@@RachManJohn thank you!
@@RachManJohn I would like to also point out that Chopin has been quoted as saying that simplicity is the highest goal. If it helps to see Zimerman is a better light think that he chases the integrity Chopin intended. The passion of Richter is not present but it is a stylistic difference and it can be appreciated even if not to your liking.
incidentally since Paderewski has to be at least above "good, but no Paderewski" i assume he's on "great artists who make awesome sounds" then :)?
Yessir! It's a reference to a criticism of Padereski, where he was described as such - essentially saying he was overrated.
side note - i don't think you've talked about Moiseiwitsch in any your videos yet, would love to hear your opinion on him someday especially since he's also quite old school
I'm quite a big fan of his! I know I've mentioned him in a video but haven't used a performance yet...
I'm afraid this video is costing you lots of angry subscribers, especially for Zimerman and Yuja, eheh. I personally like this video because you've been very onest, although I don't share some of your choises, for example.... yeah, I don't like the spot that you've reserved to Zimerman and Pollini, but, nevermind, it's taste, and I respect that!
I wish rach recorded the b minor sonata (lizst)
did not think that you would like Brendel!
this looks fun
there's Richter and there's everybody else.
ZIMERMAN IN F TIER????? SACRILEGE!!!!!!
Anyone who thinks Zimerman is better than a C doesn't deserve to listen to Chopin
@@RachManJohn actually, I read your rationale for why u don't like Zimerman, and I actually partially agree with you. Just curious, do you also view Lugansky in the same light when it comes to his Rach recordings?
@@barcarolleenjoyer Frankly I like his Rachmanninoff far more than Zimerman's Chopin. It has a fair bit of verve and is more adventurous while remaining fairly sensible.
Since your second favorite moonlight sonata is kempff I wanna know your favorite
Elly Ney's!
Terrible judgement taste and respect for great musicians.
23:58 the same can be said for Pogorelich for sure
I would've had Cliburn, Ashkenazy, and maybe ax
The first red flag came when you placed Argerich over Hess. You second sin, in my opinion, was putting Brendan over Arrau, a decision I believe Brendel would have opposed. The third offense follows the second quite promptly and it is placing Fischer on the middling tier. At the least, he belongs in the good tier. Directly after, you putted Gilels below Argerich and Brendel? That’s ludicrous! Another decision I question is putting Haskil below good tier, another disservice just like what you did to Fischer. Thereafter, I was further saddened by the fact that you placed Zimmerman in the “don’t belong” tier. You should hear him in concert! He has matured so much and I would even argue he is there in the league of Kempff and Michelangeli. And definitely above Kissin and Lang Lang?! So, you continued on pretty well for a while. I slightly disagree with your judgement regarding Pires and Uchida, if it were me, I would just put them on the middling tier. Thibaudet (et is pronounced btw) belongs at most in the good tier. As much as I am a big fan of the French school of playing (and trust me I am), there’s much better Ravels out there. Check out Perlemuter, Francois, Hass, Entremont, Gelber, Doyen, or Long. Ok next! Trifonov in my humble opinion, belongs in the not belong tier. He’s not that much better than Yuga Wang! If I have to reflect over the tierlist as a whole all over again, among the many things that trouble me, seeing Lang Lang’s face next to Fischer and Haskil is probably what troubles me most. I just can’t!
Oh yes, surely you must know Chopin better than the Chopin Competition judges. Haha. Zimerman is a gold standard to many pianists when it comes to Chopin. Not to mention, that these judges are world-class pianists, and watching your recordings on TH-cam makes me wonder if you practice more than 3 minutes a day
No Sofronitsky, Berman, Lamond, no Tozer, Sultanov, Ovchinnikov, Moravec... no Pogorelich?? This list had me white as a ghost with horror/shock. Just goes to show how subjective these things are.
Again, wasn't my list... all of these will probably be in part 2!
Can i know your address so i can buy a ticket, come to your place while you're sleeping and use your pc to put Richter in the S Tier? I can't sleep knowing he's below Rubinstein and Gould...Hofmann after Gould, HOW! And poor Arrau, what did he do to you! Also Fischer and Haskil under Andsens? WTF And Argerich so high? Don't get me wrong, i love her playing but...her repertoire is so limited...Oh and Gieseking! He was playing pretty straight but his colours....jeez! And Pires...did she play ANYTHING in a more than forgettable way?
About Y. Wang, i would partly disagree with you, of course if Beethoven is your main comparison point ok, but i remember the only time i went to one of her concerts she did a selection of Scriabin and it was amazing. I would probably put her before Lang2 but that's just me able to ignore the way she dresses (it's music, i don't care if you really wanna dress like a 19yo going to a club althoug yeah, it's juvenile, it's vulgar, it's taking away attention from the main point of your job and yeah, makes me think of fucking while i don't necessarily wanna think about it lol)
Also Baremboim to my mind could go almost at the bottom of the list, although maybe Pires would take that spot, she's completely tasteless and useless.
This list is just pretentiousness for the sake of pretentiousness.
And I'm only commenting to feed the YT algorithm since I love your content (other than this preposterous list of course) :P
Looks like a solid ranking. Mostly agree with you, but Kissin and Arrau were underrated, Argerich was overrated. Kissin is at least Gillels level. Arrau is at least Brendel level. And Bang Bang are you kidding me? The fact that you say bang bang is getting better reveals the poor taste dude. 😂 How dare you put BangBang on the list to compare with these guys.
Yeah, it’s hilarious
Volodos!
Van Cliburn? Lisitsa?
I don't consider Lisitsa to be on anyone of credence's top list. Cliburn, maybe. But like I said in the video, I took these from external sources to avoid biases
Where would you place them on the list, seeing as I (an external source) am providing these pianists to you haha!
@@jacksonsanford9214 Lisitsa is F tier. I don't see much musicality in her and even her technique is overrated. Cliburn is B tier. Excellent but I don't get enough personality from him to make him truly great in my opinion.
@@RachManJohn surprised, I would have put listitsa higher, her rubatos are always smooth, and she plays things like Rach 2 exceptionally well imo. Cliburn, seems cool but I can’t seem to find any definitive characteristics about him versus other pianists other than that he won Tchaikovsky comp at politically convenient time lol. I would put him just above F tier
She has been called “the Queen of Rachmaninoff” which I somewhat agree with
The more wrong notes, the higher the ranking….
@@pawdaw the more passion, wrong notes are incidental.
@@pawdaw or rather, an occupational hazard of good play
Horowitz is like SSS tier lol
Richter in S
If Lugansky was there he would definitely be S tier
Anyone who put Lang Lang on this list is a joke. He and his mentor Barenboim should be expelled from the classical music word. Two jesters.
To some extent I agree, but I actually prefer Lang to Barenboim a fair bit.
„Its not Chopin and not good music“
I guess, because you play the piano at a very mediocre level you feel entiteled to have such an opinion. Very funny
the old argument
listeners can decide for themselves what sounds good to them and what doesn't regardless of their skill
Oh stop, you're going to hurt my feelings! ;)
Argerich overrated, shallow playing most of the time. But Brendel is the most mannered, irritating pianist ever. Brendel same tier as Richter ? Ahahaha, sad. Haskil, one of the musical genius of the XXth century, middling ? Did your ever listen to her recordings ? Look into my channel you will find a Brahms intermezzo by her, please listen to it. You will never heard anyone playing like this. In the 20's her repertoire was huge, and she was astounding in Rachmaninov concertos they say. She didn't record much ! Lang Lang the clown better than Haskil, you trolling hard. Sofronitsky, Pletnev, Neuhaus, Feinberg not there but Pires is? Ok, i respect your opinion, but your taste is questionable to say the least.
I Literally laughed out loudly when I saw the ranking of Haskil. 😂
as a yuja wang and zimerman fan i disagree but to each their own 😭
I don’t understand how so many people love Yuja Wangs playing, shes technically unbelievable but beyond that theres nothing there, completely soulless
@@tommyward3950 for me she brings a lot of passion and sensitivity - maybe you just have that notion of her that prevents you from enjoying any of her interpretations
well anyone who's watched his videos would've been completely expecting it
Jajajaja