As someone that has been doing the beta testing of SoaSE2, it's what it needs to be but vastly improved. Like you've got *_ACTUAL TURRETS AND PD_* now!
Let's just assume UFOs are real. Like find saucers, tic tacs etc. One thing that has been consistent about UFO, UAP. Whatever you want to call it, is how inconsistent they are. If the future is additive manufacturing, and rugged individualism, you only make things when you need them. Also explains why they crash once in awhile. Perfection is the enemy of good. And your enemy never knows what to expect.
@@Ushio01hmm, may I remind you that even the USN had already ordered and laid down almost all capital ships that pop up in 1944. Even the industry powerhouse that is the US cancelled many of the larger ships that where laid down during entry in WW2 (e.g Iowa 5 / 6, Montana's, etc)
@@Tuning3434 The US cancelled those ships because carrier based aircraft had replaced the battleship as the main form of long range strike. Range was everything and carrier aircraft were reaching the point they could carry weapon loads comparable to a battleship shell. The Douglas SBD Dauntless only had it's first flight in 1940 the same year the Iowa's were laid down and the same year the Essex class were ordered. The Dauntless started being replaced before the end of the war! For speed of construction look at the Fletcher class of destroyers or Cleveland class of cruisers. 175 Fletchers built between 1941-1945 and 20 or so Cleveland class. Battleships really are the exception to the rule and were of little use in the actual conflict.
Also keep in mind a common military fallacy...fighting the last war instead of the current one. Which is how you end up with the Battleship Yamato while the Americans are fielding ever more Aircraft Carriers.
@@3Rayfire Japan started building the Yamato and Musashi in 1937 and 1938 the same as the US with the 2 North Carolina class. The US then went on to build 6 more battleships and loads of carriers. Japan's problem is that they just didn't have the industry to build ships especially such large ones so quickly. In 1937/8 the USN carriers were still flying biplane bombers the monoplane bombers didn't enter service for 3 years after Yamato was laid down. From 1918-1937 aircraft development was pretty predictable and slow then in 1937 onwards it went supercharged thanks to new engines allowing much faster and larger aircraft. Take the USAAF P-1 top speed 154mph in 1923 in 1933 the P-26 could do 234mph that's 80 miles faster in a decade. Then you have the P-40 300mph in 1939 and was 420mph in 1944 just 5 years later and was slow compared to newer planes already flying!
@@Sakeretsu Is it six that make a circle? I guestimates 8 or 9. - Okay. Using data on the ISD1 from Wookiepedia, I come up with an angle for the ISD of 33.382 degrees, which means it takes 18.25 ISD1s to make what would roughly be a triacontakaihexagon (because the back of the ISD is not straight across).
Random thoughts: 1. One reason to have "battleships" is if they can carry unique weapons denied to smaller vessels by their sheer size. For example, in the Traveller RPG, Capital Ships have "spinal mount" weapons built into the structure of the ship itself and aimed by pointing the entire vessel. They're either particle accelerators or meson guns. These both need a long distance to accelerate their subatomic "projectiles" so it's simply impossible to build small ones. 2. Another reason for ships to get hacked abou... _modified_ is treaties. The interwar period of naval treaties is the classic case in point. Several nations had huge battlecruisers in build which were then rendered illegal by the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty. However this treaty did allow for them to be converted to other uses, and it just so happened to give the signatories a carrier allowance too. Many of the battlecruisers were therefore converted into carriers, since they had both the speed and the size neccessary for the role. Those navies that chose to cancel or scrap their big battlecruisers then had to make do with conversions of slower or smaller ships, while waiting for all-new designs to be finished. These differences in turn influenced the tactical thinking of the navies in question, depending on what kind of carriers they ended up with. 3. Ships can last a VERY long time in service with several navies. A number of US Navy destroyers built at the end of WWII made it into the 21st century, in some cases with their third owners. Needless to say, they'd been refitted and refitted over and over, first of all by the USN and later by their new owners to keep them relevent. 4. You can end up with a hodge-podge of modified second-hand ships by being a lower-tier power with no shipbuilding capability. You have no choice but to buy ships on the open market or get gifted them, with inevitable political strings attached, by a big power "patron". In both cases, the ability to customize the ships to your needs will be limited. If you then change horses and leave the patronage of one great power for another, you may end up with a bizarre mixture of legacy systems and new ones, all on the same vessel. For example, after being dropped by the Soviets following the Yom Kippur war, Egypt had to turn to the west for arms. They ended up with Soviet-supplied Komar class missile boats, re-equipped with Italian missles, British radars, and british-produced, Swiss-designed guns. India wasn't dropped by anybody but didn't want to be over-dependent on anybody either, so they ended up with locally-built, British-designed frigate hulls and steam plants, equipped with Dutch radars, and British, Russian and Swedish weapons. On later ships, Israeli missiles entered the mix.
To 3. An extreme example in fiction comes from the longest running science fiction series in the world, 'Perry Rhodan'. One ship. the SOL, has been around for a little over 2,100 years. Sometimes lost, taken over by an enemy, constantly upgraded when she makes it home once more, but also sometimes upgraded by the enemy if they have superior technology. By now there it's doubtful that even one bolt from her original construction is left and her refit is practically tradition. Even the ship's computer, SENECA, has evolved over time with the upgrades.
One of the main reasons to use battleships, and one of the big reasons why they where once used, was battleships can also carry the longest ranged weapons available. In fact this was probably their scariest advantage in the dreadnought era, was a battleships guns could reach out and hit target accurately form distances much greater than anything else until aircraft carriers came along. sci fi seems to like to make battleships close range brawlers for some reason even though this is completely contrary to everything battleships where expected to do. But the different properties of space means carriers aren't likely to get anywhere near as much of a range, advantage, if at all. a Space battleship can benefit from having the largest and most powerful sensor array of a fleer, thus enabling it to target and fire at other ships from much greater distances, even in cases where primary weapons are missiles. Spinal mounted fixed weapons really aren't great weapons for this though, because in order to accurately aim the things over any kind of distance, you have to have an insanely precise reaction control system that in all likeliness, just isn't very practical. Spinal mounts only make any kind of sense if they have a mechanism at the muzzle that allows for some kind of off bore shooting. otherwise they are a bit of a dead end technology.
To point 1): it depends on the setting. In Honor Harrington, the Super Dreadnought is the final word in ship class because (due to science of the setting) it carries the most broadside weaponry. Government would love to throw money into churning them out. Later on in the setting the 'Meta' changes drastically so that lasers and grasers become secondary but the Super Dreadnought still reigns. 3) Ship age also varies by setting. I've read books where the hero ship is top of the line but in one case over 120 years old or in another uses tech that cannot be replicated making it a one off super ship. I've also read series where over the course of a decades the MC gets several ships due to combat loss, promotion and other incidents.
@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 For spinal mounted fixed weapons it depends on the settings. Massive objects have a ton of inertia, which helps with stability and sustained fire. Precision reaction control systems that take advantage of rotational inertia do exist and are in use in current satellites.
This just made me remember, I would love a new Empire at War for the Space battles alone. I would always get 1 Star Destroyer, 2 Victory class, 1 Interdictor, and 4 or 5 Tarkin cruisers for fighter screening.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 The X-Wing games have a number of missions around re-supply efforts. Tend to be large haulers and storage/distribution node stations.
One note on Trek is that the Excelsior class was initially designed as a ship that was easy to modify due to the idea that it would be an ongoing testbed for new technologies. It was the first ship that Starfleet attempted to build with a transwarp engine, which while the initial design did not live up to expectations in even the slightest way, it was still regarded as the most flexible ship in Starfleet at the time and came into ubiquity throughout the Federation. That's why it was able to last just so incredibly long.
It was also heavily overengineered to cope with the expected stresses of Transwarp, which meant that the basics of the hull were very rugged and tough. It was a solid ship. It's telling that a century later, the Lakota upgrade was still a fearsome warship that could hold its own against the Defiant. What if Starfleet had made that refit universal amongst the Excelsior class.....?
In some circles it’s thought that transwarp didn’t fail hence the new warp scale since well we only saw if fail because a legendary engineer sabotaged the ship.
The TNG tech book goes into this more that under the hull plating of ships there made so whole rooms/systems could be pulled out and replaced as time goes on. Irc the bridge for most ships could be pulled off and replaced as well.
I've always mentioned that the Excelsior was a class built way ahead of its time. That's why it survived so long. It was built to replace the Constitution Class with war in mind. It was also the first Starfleet ship with bubble shields (shields not up against the hull).
@@retluoc I also always had the head cannon that the excelsior was the most efficient federation design, and that every truly long lasting federation design has design limits similar to the excelsior. A reason why I always thought the sovereign was designed to work off the excelsior success
Look at the MCRN. They had a diversified fleet but every ship was able to stand on it's own. Maybe not long but it works. The Donnanger carried smaller ships while flying with others at its side. The UNSC was built on Frigates. That was smart enough of an idea. B5 used a good fleet variety. Whitestars in a swarm were lethal as it got. Trek does rely on old ships but they're a peace time society. Makes sense a good ship would last a while.
If you haven't ever looked at it, I highly recommend looking at the how to build a navy page on Atomic Rockets. The article it's based on was written by Chris Weuve, who is a naval analyst and used to work for the USN's Center for Naval Analysis. It gives you all of the steps that, ideally, you should take to design and build out your fleet. Some of it was touched on here, but I don't think it gets across how your assumptions and resources affect what kind of fleet you wind up with.
@@Ally5141 Perun's videos are a great way to get a feel for some of the real world challenges, agreed. But Weuve's article is where one ought to start. Does no good to understand the challenges of painting a room when you don't know where to put up the walls :D
Interesting plot point that came up in my RPG Campaign - a highly advanced 'Clarktech' civilisation that intentionally fields outdated ships not just because they're easier to maintain, but lack key technologies that could be stolen and reverse-engineered should the vessel come under enemy hands.
That's a cool idea. Like the brotherhood of Nod - a high tech core with highly talented people sorounded by many old but reliable tech and ordinary followers. If you catch one of them - good for you. But if one of your core techs got stolen, you go predator style and get it back or destroy it.
The mission of the fleet change the make up of the fleet. A deep space patrol will have more ships that can build and repair the fleet while a boarder watch fleet need less ship to repair itself and even less speed.
Yes. Before one starts to think about "What ship types should I have in my fleet," one has to decide, "Why do I want to have a fleet? What is my fleet supposed to do?"
1)Drop Homeworld player into the archive of ships from all available sci-fi; 2)watch what they end up stealing. Jokes aside, I feel like only BSG ever raises a question of fleet logistics. What if FTL stops working and your fleet gets stuck? Suddenly you need capability to resupply and exist within local resources. Which might be new star system or it might be Garden of Kadesh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@glynrh8892 ... is Legends of the Galactic Heroes a joke to you? Most of the time, it's the MCs having entire *_EPISODES_* working on the logistics of a major campaign in the original OVA and it is semi-constantly referenced in the new OVA.
@@TheTrueAdept Not to mention the sheer scale of the logistics in that show, the giant haulers are easily 5 times the size of even the largest capital ships in the series, and with the massive fleets of warships being tossed around those things travel in convoys of hundreds of ships
A fleet doesn't just exists, it serves a purpose. This purpose defines the ship types included. If the purpose of the fleet changes over time, the ship types of the fleet will change to.
A couple of the advantages of Starfleet is ships are built at dozens of different star systems (for real world costs of production we only see Earth and Mars shipyards) but with all the model lines and various ships the largest advantage is they all use compatible tech, and hauls. You can actually take a Galaxy warp nacelle and attach it to a Intrepid class ship. Now its not great, but will let you limp home. Theres a book (sorry I don't remember the name) that involves the survivors of Wolf 359. Its about 100 people and the cobble together a ship from a intact warp drive, a single nacelle, and various other parts they find and make it to the nearest starbase.
6:11 everything you say during this pan of the enterprise being assembled had me busting a gut as it's exactly what one of my friends does while playing Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts every time
Here's an idea for a video concept. WHAT CONSTITUTES A DESTOYED SHIP We expect ships that are "Destroyed' to just go boom and disappear in a fiery explosion. Heck in games the destroyed ship is often just REMOVED from its former location after it has been destroyed to leave EMPTY SPACE. But is that going to be the case? What about ships that are adrift?
if a ship runs on AM I suspect the moment the containment loses power there is a big boom and no more ship. However I suspect you would have lots of hulks sitting around with ships running on more conventional fusion and that would be a new hazard for ships still operating in a combat zone. Especially if say that 2km long carrier got its eng sections cored out, well now its a 2km structure moving through the combat zone in what ever direction it was last accelerated in. Added fun if in orbit of a planet and a ship was moving to a lower orbit when its engineering section went boom you could now have a hulk that may deorbit. Do you have to deal with wildcat salvagers after a fight.
@@filanfyretracker Yeah, that is interesting. Especially if you get into the shipsizes to rival the Asteroid that killed the Dinosaurs. Because they might crash faster and space-alloys are a lot more durable than just Rock and Stone. ( Source : Book Series First Contact )
@@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233 hell, an example of that would be in the Honorverse with the Mesans' Operation Oyster Bay. Chunks of ship and space station massing hundreds of thousands of tons de-orbiting out of control, causing massive damage.
@@filanfyretracker I love the idea. Hard kill that leaves a broken hulk (or rapidly expanding debris/plasma), soft kills that remove the ability to fight, mobility kills that remove their ability to maneuver or strand them in a given star system. And that opens up other notions, like videos about rules of warfare and the treatment of prisoners and rescuing the crews of defeated ships, salvage, and if necessary, orbital clean-up jobs.
X4 does it pretty well. In the wake of pretty much any freshly destroyed ship, is left salvageable cargo, and broken husks that can be harvested & broken down into scrap metal.
I find the geometric fleet formations in LOGH very aesthetically pleasing. It’s a simple way to make out the ludicrous amount of ships amidst the natural backdrop of space.
@@Techno_Idioto I'm... torn about the Neue These. Art style is nominally better (and much more coherent), and it technically follows the novels more closely... but it's nowhere near complete, and I think the decision to abandon using classical music for the battles was a VERY bad decision.
Since you showed Space Engineers so much love the other day, here's a call back: Varied fleet composition is something that happens almost organically on SE survival multiplayer servers. Most servers run a mod called "quantum hangar", basically you can store grids (ships, rovers, stations) you're not currently using in your own pocket dimension to decrease server load. So what you do is you use a ship for a certain task, build something better, put the old one in the quantum hangar and keep it there just in case. And then when shit actually hits the fan, you still got all your old stuff in there, ready to be taken out of mothballs ate a moment's notice.
A unique flagship, destroyers, dreadnoughts, corvettes, frigates, dedicated carriers, all for perfect balance, dedicated electronic warfare and spy vessels too. And I can also fully appreciate a clean, purpose built vessel and a ship that’s been cobbled together
A modular ship design could allow for ships with the same main hull to perform a variety of roles. Space makes modular designs a lot more practical, since you don't need any particular overall shape (as long as you can protect the connection points).
If we ever do get into space, this is how we'll do it. Getting things built, working and in the right place is a hurdle. It's just too expensive for something to go through all of that and then have to replace it simply because it no longer fits where you need it. Once you start modular, that will remain true and it's really hard to change once things already have a standard.
I don't think modular has ever worked out for any military vehicle. At most, you might have a few standardized hulls with matching propulsion and life support systems but different configurations of mission-specific equipment. But that would be permanently integrated and not be able to switched out without a complete refit. Ships would look very similar from the outside, but with different capabilities.
@@Yora21 Sure it has. It's not for all components in all places, but we have an absurd level of standards to make things compatible. At the very least, ammunition, tires, track plates for treads, etc.
Another fun thing you can do, particularly for large star nations, is have slightly different aesthetics for different regions. The far-flung frontier is probably not going to be getting the brand-new flagship deployed there after all. Instead, it's likely going to be given a hodgepodge of the dregs of the fleet. Old ships, perhaps the last of their class cludged together with that frontier mechanical black magic the only thing keeping them working. And then some crisis happens and an actually modern ship shows up and its a huge deal. Like imagine a Star Trek story where they're out in the middle of nowhere with Constitutions and Mirandas and other TOS ships but then something big happens and suddenly a Galaxy class is sent by Starfleet. (which then of course is immediately destroyed because the big shot "important" commander with his shiny new ship has an ego the size of Olympus mons and refuses to listen to the advice and warnings of the local officers who actually understand what's going on and local dangers and runs face first into an ambush because that's how these kinds of stories work)
My favorite real life example of what you talk about at 6:59 is the CV-11 Intrepid, a WW2 Essex class carrier that ended up getting a super overhaul and basically becoming a new ship (just look up intrepid before and after refit) where it receives an entirely new flightdeck for use with jets. This crazy ship was first launched in 1943 and went on a very long and eventful career, only finally being retired in 1974, a year where the nuclear powered CV Nimitz had already been in service for two years!
The role of different types of ships might depend on what types of technologies are available to you. For example, in an era where weapons struggle to overcome armor, heavily armored battleships might serve as meatshield or the only type of ship that does the heavy lifting, while smaller ships serve in fire support, scouting, or other secondary roles. In an era where armor struggle to protect against weapons, however, larger ships might serve as artillery or sensor platforms, while it's the smaller vessels that do most of the fighting.
Also if you think about it. Reactor technology gets more efficient and powerful the larger they are. You you'd imagine that stuff like force fields require alot of energy that smaller ships won't have access too. Also allowing them to sustain hits that would make a large ship crumble. And also being able to have a large arsenal of missiles the perfect space combat weapon
@@mryellow6918 Yeh. However if weapons are extremely powerful and/or your weapons/reactors/fuel/ammo are extremely volatile, a large ship might be more vulnerable than several smaller ships that cost the same. Larger ships are also easier to hit.
@@rystiya7262 id have to disagree with them being easier to hit, at the distances involved, it wont matter. the ship that has the better anti missle defence is gonna win.
@@mryellow6918 If the predominant weapons are rail-guns firing unguided projectiles, larger size does make a ship easier to hit. And yeh if we are talking about missiles, then it’s a different story. As I said, it really depends on what kind of technologies are out there.
@@rystiya7262Today's rail guns have around 3 km/s. If we assume that it's a very advanced rail gun and have maybe 20 km/s or even 50 - it would still give the target a few seconds warning time, especially in a war when they are closely watching you and your energy radiation. And even if the ship is just to big to evade in time, they could just shoot something towards the expected shell, like a debris field or something.
most navies need at least one capital ship to command from, carry limited restocks, provide support and possible ground troops. be very few occasions to not need one.
And also the particular star nation's economic base. A poor, single-system polity might have nothing that qualifies as a capital ship, and their flagship could very well be a middling or even fairly small ship in a first-rate fleet, as they can't afford to build and maintain true capital ships, or have the population base to properly crew them.
I like the united fleets that you can build through treaties in Mass Effect 3. A dozen different species coming together against a seemingly impossible threat.
Fleet compositions also depend on what kind of FTL system you have. If you for instance have an FTL system that requires an enormous initial power supply just to get started, but is relatively cheap to scale tonnages afterwards, then your fleet would naturally come to revolve around one or a few giant ships that carry everything else through FTL. That immediately makes your fleet comp one where only stuff that can get carried can be brought, and everything is geared towards protecting the mothership from threats.
I love in Babylon 5 we see the Nova class ships and then later on the Omega Class Destoyers, and you can clearly see the evolution of adding the rotating sections (as well as seeing the Leonov from '2010'). :D
The Omega class was to replace the Hyperion class and make a ship more comparable to what the Minbari were using (a couple of big guns with a large compliment of fighters for every ship) the Nova was a 'how many guns can we fit on the largest ship we can build quickly at this time' ship that it worked was luck even with it's numerous flaws.
@@Ushio01 I get that. It's just from an architectural or ship design POV, you can see they may have stripped down the Nova and built it up from there to the Omega. After the devastating War with the Minbari, EA probably needed to rush something out of the shipyards asap to build up their forces.
@@padawanmage71 It's been retconned due to a CGI mistake, but the Omegas were in development during the E-M War. The Nova-X ( a Nova with a rotating section) were hurridly built and deployed late in the war, and was much more capable than the Hyperions although it didn't make a difference in the end. Although given the expected lifetime of the ships they could probably have skipped the rotating section altogether and just done the weapons/sensor upgrades.
Thanks for mentioning the fleet auxiliaries! As in ack Campbell's Lost Fleet saga they're often too slow and cumbersome to be allowed anywhere near the line of battle, but when the big tuff macho battlewagons get dinged up, run out of ammo, or are reduced to running on fumes somebody has to top 'em up and/or fix 'em up. If big and versatile enough a fleet auxiliary can even become a hero ship in its own right (like the USS da Vinci of Star Trek's SCE series) or at least the focus of its own story, like the Deep Space Repair ship Koskiusko from Elizabeth Moon's "Once a Hero," which is targeted by bloody-handed space pirates wanting to make her a mobile drydock for their pirate fleet.
And lets not forget the space repair docks in Halo which are gigantic discs that are easily able to function as literal shields, which thankfully the over engineering of human structures for durability makes them good for at least two volleys each.
I like that you mentioned how some ships may be too expensive or crucial to risk, so they spend most of their time in Port. In the real world, the United States built only 20 B2 bombers. While there actual cost is closely guarded secret it is generally estimated that each one cost about $1 billion at the time, which is a hell of a lot of money. As such they haven’t been used all that much because if there is any other aircraft capable of doing the job that needs to be done, it’s much better to risk that than a very limited and very expensive production run vehicle. If the job cannot be done by any other aircraft, if it specifically needs the capabilities of a B2, then they send in the B2, but they do not use it unless absolutely necessary
Not really. B-2's are used a lot more than people realize. The limiting factor for them is simply numbers. We didn't buy enough, so now there's not enough for them to be the star. In that case, it's up to the B-1's and B-52's, both of which are well past their prime. Strangely, that also applies to the B-2. The thing is nearly 40 years old. Hopefully we won't make the same mistakes with the B-21 that we made with so many other MDS in the past few decades.
The B2 is a terrible example. Use the Seawolf-class submarine. Or, as we submariners call them "Pier Puppies". These were state of the art hunter-killers made to end the Soviet Navy. Everything was so cutting edge, that they launched without a torpedo for their class. They have oversized tubes for a projectile that passed the drawing board...because the Cold War ended. They cost more, in todays dollars, than the newer and more capable Virginia Class.
@@Tetsujinhanmaa Had a buddy who served on the Jimmy Carter. He couldn't tell us much other than going back to a 688 was something he considered a big enough downgrade that he got out instead.
@@Tetsujinhanmaa And funny enough, the navy proceeded to do a very similar thing with the zumwalt porgram as well, building what on paper should be a very capable ship without any contemporary examples, and then deciding at the last second they dont want to foot the bill, cancelling any armament for them, and just leaving them to soak up maintenance money for no real use
It’s a perennial mention on this channel but BSG: deadlock really did do a fantastic job with this. Enough distinct variety to cater to your play style (I favor slow, tight formation, wall of battle ), but restrained enough to not be overwhelming.
I believe that in David Weber's Honorverse, battles between capital ships eventually evolved into glorified tug boats hauling vast quantities of missile pods and then firing them from over huge distances.
Loved all the starsector images and gameplay. Regrettably, I get to a point where I build a fleet of 2 dreadnoughts and a few destroyers, and then trade most my ships out for a battleship... always takes tons of fuel and supplies to run, so it usually is something I pull out for system defense... really hoping they update it with an option of supplying/donating ships to your system defense fleet, as that would save so much effort of going back to the planet they are on, rearranging the fleet to support them, and then countering an enemy just to immediately put them back in the dock...
@@Tyrgalon apologies for the late reply; I never got the notification of the response lol. That mod seems great, and last I played I had many running on my game, but could only find threads saying how what I wanted was not possible or not a thing. Thanks for pointing me to that mod :D
@@Suzuki_Hiakura Np, nex is basically the basis that all other faction mods and thus most of the modding scene as a whole is based around due to how many features it adds and allows factions to come alive and be dynamic :)
Contractually obligated to mention the Honor Harrington universe as a fantastic example of a universe that goes heavily into logistical and fleet composition issues and touches on practically every point in this vid
Like the missile shortage after the Mesans bushwhack all of the Manticoran and Grayson main military industrial nodes, or just ships running out of ammunition. And, my favourite, the RMN and Graysons really investing in automation as to reduce crew sizes because they don't have the population base to supply "conventional" crews for an extended war.
Also worth mentioning how detailed the break down of all of that can get, especially in House Of Steel, where every class in service in the RMN and GSN gets looked at - production dates, service lives, operational histories and so on.
I think a big part that gets neglected is the strategic situation of the faction that has a fleet being built. If the faction is limited to a single or couple of systems, a large capital ship fleet wouldn't make as much sense as smaller craft. If there's a war economy and it's a large interstellar conflict going on, then parity with the rival faction is required. The strategic position of a faction/nation/country determines the military mindset, that directs military procurement. Consider pre-WW2 US, to Vietnam and post Cold War, how drastic the military changed.
Star Trek's incredible array of starship types for the Federation falls into the Slop Zone. I get it that people don't like the huge Inquiry-class fleet from the end of Picard Season 1, but it makes a LOT of sense for the Federation to have a Standard type cruiser that they can build a LOT of - it allows them to work out the bugs of ONE design and produce it widely rather than having dozens of designs with unique outfits.
I like the 1975 Tech manual explanation of Starfleet: there are several mass produced units that can be mixed and matched in a variety of combinations. Honestly, that’s pretty ideal and I am surprised they started doing wildly divergent ship, designs that clearly do not have many interchangeable parts. it avoids the slap zone, but still gives a great deal of variety, and still allows a recognizable design style that you can immediately identify as being a federation
My problem with the Inquiry class was that nothing in ST ever gave the impression that they could do that. EVER. I would have bought it if there were like 30 of them and a mix of Akira, Steam Runners and three Prometheus class ship. That would have been way more believable considering what they fielded during the Dominion War.
Rather than rewriting, i'll just copy/paste my response I wrote: A couple of the advantages of Starfleet is ships are built at dozens of different star systems (for real world costs of production we only see Earth and Mars shipyards) but with all the model lines and various ships the largest advantage is they all use compatible tech, and hauls. You can actually take a Galaxy warp nacelle and attach it to a Intrepid class ship. Now its not great, but will let you limp home. Theres a book (sorry I don't remember the name) that involves the survivors of Wolf 359. Its about 100 people and the cobble together a ship from a intact warp drive, a single nacelle, and various other parts they find and make it to the nearest starbase.
@@TetsujinhanmaaThe Dominion War forced Star Fleet to throw whatever it could into battle, strapping whatever guns it had available onto whatever aging space frames it had left out of desperation. Resulting in the hodgepodge we got on screen. Starfleet only really had enough resources to develop a few new types during the war like the Prometheus prototype, but likely only a handful were ever produced during the war, Starfleet lacked the resources to churn out vast amounts of these new state of the art ships. Everything else was a throw together from it’s previous assets on hand. The Explorer focused Galaxies were repurposed into battleships. Nebulas became Heavy Cruisers or functioned in fleet support roles with their advanced sensor packages. Akiras became Frigates. Some of the Post-359 ships like the Defiant obviously found heavy action, and if anything The Federation owes it’s survival to the borg for giving them the wakeup to build shjps like these with a war-focus, because I don’t think the federation would have lasted a month with the fleet it was fielding prior. The Sovereign was a rare sight in the dominion war because it was an expensive ship for what it could do, far to valuable to throw to waste on the front, and likely only functioned as a command ship or sent on specialised missions. The Nova was useless in the dominion war, too lightly armed for battle, too slow to function as a scout, at best it could function as light support in a scanning role but had no place in the vanguard. The Intrepid was actually ideally suited as a recon scout due to it’s speed, and it could hold it’s own reasonably in battle, but again as an expense it would be wasted in that role, it was far more valuable in specialty assignments, or ferrying high ranking officials at high warp across enemy lines, as we saw in DS9 in one occasion. Using an intrepid in battle would be like sending commandos to the trenches. If Starfleet had years to prepare for the Dominion War I have no doubt it’s fleet would looked completely different.
The problem with the inquiry fleet was that actual ship model was unfinished, the scene was also setup poorly. VFX artists on the show have confirmed this, that they ran out of time and had to cobble something together. Which is why it looks bad.
Speaking solely from star sector but it's interesting to try and other games as well is the "unique fleet doctrine." You can only have one of each kind of capital ship. On the one hand this is an arbitrary challenge limitation to make the star sector a little more difficult because if you find one capital ship blueprint you will just stuff your fleet with as many as you can fit but if you come across a fleet that happens to be modified in a way that counters that particular ship it can counter your entire fleet. If every ship is a different hull with different weapons they will all have different strengths and weaknesses. Then the workhorses will reveal themselves the ships that are always left standing at the end of every battle. In a setting with modular weaponry and upgrades a relatively benign fleet can up armour very quickly.
Modular ship design can address the spare parts problem , if you have a standard parts that are compatible with every ship class in your fleet your logistics becomes simple because a standard armor panel square that can be cut to fit on site and bonded together with other panels that a frigate or a dreadnought can use then your supply depot just got a load smaller or a load more useful to everyone while remaining the same size. the same applies for parts for other systems , having generic parts that can be used to build power plants or propulsion units of any size is more useful than having individualized spares with incomparable parts. Plus it will allow for easier repairs after a battle , a carrier could send over some spare reactor parts to fix a problem with a frigate's reactor rather than abandoning that frigate and leaving it to wait for a specialist repair ship or limp back to a depot.
Love the notion of standardized components, but there are some limits as to what can be done. Larger armor panels would spread a given impact over a larger area, for example, so a corvette-sized panel on a battleship would present a weak point. Power plant and propulsion components, likewise, wouldn't be necessarily interchangeable. But internal partitions that aren't load-bearing, some system components, most definitely.
Wow, I remember playing Sins in college. I loved playing as the TEC Loyalists, building 5 Space Stations around a Star and blockading the major jump lanes, securing trade routs and denying trade shipping lanes to my enemies.
If you have energy shielding and replicators you could easily turn asteroids into ships. No reason to have weird ship design like Star-Trek it really just rule of cool. Most ships should be cubes
Your Omega Odyssey with full captain build after single handedly killing the largest hegemony ai inspection the sector ever saw without even taking damage. Refuses to elaborate further. Goes back to storage. 🗿 That thing is unstoppable. The only thing that comes close is the ziggy. But jokes aside the volatile particle driver is probably one of the best weapons omega has blessed us with. THREE THOUSAND kinetic dps is just insane. Perfect for odyssey since its a hit and run ship. Plasma burn in, dump 9k kinetic dmg on some poor sob, plasma burn out. With shield modulation, helmsmanship, sysex and ordnance expertise you are quite literally untouchable. I dont know why ppl sleep on the ody. Its literally one of if not the best capital. As fast as an eagle. Insane shields with a very deep flux pool and good dissipation. The only real competition it has is the nova, but that thing is miserable. The conquest doesnt even get close to the level of violence you can achieve with the true broadside battlecruiser. Man i fricking love that thing. Its my favorite thing ever, in the history of forever. I think about everyday, i think about this all night long, i stay away, not sleeping thinking about this thing. Closely followed by the non pirate eradicator
5:38 RIP Nebulous, after today's announcement, it's basically never going to be more than it currently is EDIT: interesting, he released the abandoned prototype for conquest mode
@@Sephiroth144 development ceased on the conquest mode, basically it's just gonna stay a skirmish game. they're just planning on adding new ships, it seems
Before composing a fleet there must be an idea of what each ship class does, for my fantasy scenario it is something like this: Fighters. Possibly divided in: Interceptors (very fast and light, used mostly as scramblers for defence), Superiority (good balance and multirole but doesnt excel in anything, often used as fighter-bombers or escorts for proper bombers), Bombers (big and heavy, not very agile but fast enough for bombing runs against big targets). Shuttles. Mostly used for transports of any kind, from cargo to personell, to marines boarding parties, some specialized variant may be used for early warning, ECM, and short range police duty. Corvettes (150m). Divided by specialty, a gunship corvette may be an excellent anti fighter ship, a wolfpack of torpedo corvette could threaten much larger capitals, other roles could be minelaying/minehunting, stealth infiltration, comm relays, etc. Typically used by local militias and dedicated planetary defence. Frigates (300m). Relatively long range, multirole ships that can both fend off fighters and become a worry for bigger ships, used mostly for system-wide patrols and are often the flagships of local security and mercenary groups. Smallest vessel that can support a hangar (2-4 fighters or 1-2 utility shuttles). Used in wings they can screen a fleet and harass enemy exposed lines. Destroyers (600m). Escort ships par excellence, very fast and with weaponry dedicated specifically to the destruction of vessels smaller than itself. Their great efficacy at that role comes at the price of a lack of versatility, sometimes partially mitigated by carrying a wing of bombers in their small hangar. Used to screen fleets, close-in escort to bigger capital ships and protect convoys. Some especially important planets or well funded militias can use them VERY effectively against big pirate gangs. Cruisers (1200m). Effectively a bigger version of frigates. Long range multirole ships perfectly capable of remaining in the void for extended periods. Depending on the situation they can be used for multi-system patrol, close-in escort, commerce raiding, and even battleline fights. Their hangar can house two full wings of fighters (or more often one wing + shuttles). Light Carriers (1200m). Based on cruiser hulls but with all their heavy weaponry removed to make space for hangars for several wings of fighters and shuttles, with a light escort of destroyers and frigates they can be used to patrol systems that can be too dangerous for a single cruiser to deal with. Also used in support of larger battlegroups and training duties. Assault Ship (1200m) A variant of light carriers that focuses on housing a full land invasion force and the fighter wing necessary to provide air support. Can be used to ferry also large amount of important cargo in its vast interior spaces. Battlecruiser (1500m) Based on cruiser hulls but with bigger engines and much bigger weapons. Very fast and with a strong punch but with a glass jaw. They are not very common as their favorite niche is to harass the rear lines of an enemy, engaging targets in hit and run tactics, or blasting away lightly protected objectives before running away as fast as they can, sometimes accompanied by one or two supporting destroyers. More often used instead for orbital bombardment. The extra space necessary for the enlarged systems means that the hangar had to be reduced to a single wing of fighters or shuttles. Battleship (2000m) Big armored ships that lose a bit of the speed of battlecruisers, but gain much more armor, making them the ideal ships of the line. Aside from their big weapons they also retain much of the lighter armament of cruisers, making them multirole ships also usable for escort, bombardment and raids. When not used to bolster the escort of a fleet carrier, they often set sail in the middle of a strike group of their own. Their only limiting factors are the small hangar space of two wings, and high cost of building and operations. Fleet Carrier (2200m) The core of many strike groups and the ultimate in power projection, fleet carriers have very limited armament, composed almost exclusively of short range self-defence weapons, but they make it up thanks to their speed, relatively heavy armor, and especially big hangars, housing many wings of both fighters and shuttles. Very expensive to buid and maintain, they enter the field in the middle of a thick multi-layered escort screen, from which they can send waves upon waves of fighters to destroy the enemy. Titan (aka battlecarrier, aka dreadnought) (5000+m) A one-ship fleet that fuses together a fleet carrier and a battleship. Ideally used to wreak havok in the rear lines of an enemy, who is then forced to divide their resources to deal with both the front line and the Titan, they are so few and so expensive that most of the times, when they enter battle, they do it from the centre of a massive formation of friendly ships. Alternatively they are frequently used for propaganda and big-stick diplomacy. Auxiliaries (100-5000m) Most common of these are the fast logistic ships used to replenish roaming battlegroups, other examples include hospital ships, transports, repair ships (the largest of which could be mobile drydocks), science vessels, and so on. Now if you're still reading, you can come up with the best fleet combination yourself, or if you're interested, i cold come up with mine.😃
Bad naming conventions. You're still basing them all on Earth ocean vessel classes. Example: destroyers were actually originally termed as torpedo-boat destroyers but it got shortened to one word. Another example of bad naming in your post: what exactly did you think "frigate" originally was named as for and what happened to make it happen that way?
It's funny to see the Brazilian monitor Parnaíba shown. She's so old she originally had a reciprocating engine that was replaced with a diesel engine when she was modernized.
Just some notes I found years ago: A “Capitol” ship is a ship that: if the rest of the ships in a Task Unit are lost the Unit can still effectively complete the assigned task. If this ship is lost, the rest of the unit cannot effectively complete the assigned task. Squadron: A small number of vessels (Task Elements) includes capital ships, and other ship types; not to be confused with ground and air squadrons. Flotilla: A small number of vessels (Task Elements) with no capital ships, usually of the same or similar types. EG the Carrier in a Carrier Battle Group would be the Capitol ship, and in Squadron with its Oiler/Tender. The Offensive screen and Defensive screen ships would be their own flotillas.
I thought a capital ship was defined as a ship that can launch other boats, making everything down to a sloop-of-war a capital ship by technicality. Can you comment?
I’m working on making a full complement of ships, from fighters to a tactical carrier in space engineers. So far I have a light, medium, and heavy fighters, a light destroyer and the tactical carrier is about 50% done. And I’ve been taking all of the ideas I’ve seen from your vids for the weapons and systems. Mostly heavy shields and high mobility, with a lot of railguns and missiles. And a full cover of layered point defense on the larger ships.
Manufacturing ships would be a very important one. You can't just head back to port or order a new thingabob, you need a ship that can get the resources (recycled or new) and have the equipment and skilled labor to make a new one. That might be a bigger target than the carrier or big battleships.
the best example of exploring fleet design us the UNSC Spirit of Fire, a colony ship turned carrier in what can only be described as "an army printer gone rogue" plenty of logi, a factory suite, built for sitting in orbit with support, and approximately 7 days older than dirt. seriously, even at the REFIT it got obsolete point defense cannons that got used on exactly 3 ships before they tossed it.
First step is to ignore the first step of this video. I'm sorry, Fleet design is the _fourth_ step in designing a Fleet. The first step is figuring out your Strategic Assumptions. The Second Step is your Strategic Goals. The Third Step is Fleet Missions. The Fourth Step is Fleet Design. The Fifth Step is Force Size. The Sixth Step is Force Management. This list is from page 513 of House of Steel's inserted essay (Building a Navy in the Honorverse) written by David Weber and Christopher Weuve. While it was written with the Honorverse in mind, it is based on Christopher's experience as an analyst of the US Naval War College. So, what ships you want in your fleet depends entirely on the technological advances of the IP, the threats your fleet is designed to fight, how much resources you actually have to build, maintain and _man_ your fleet... so your generalities are pretty much not helpful without the context of the rest you've never mentioned. Though they can start a person thinking about all of the rest.
Hodge podge shines in games: the mechanics keep things consistent and organized while lore explains the variety. Single player games in junkyard space operas are a match made in heaven (ayy). Explanations for how each Galaxy-class is modified may end feeling confined, not so in Star Wars or 40k. Put a pirate fleet manager or X-COM in those settings and you have plenty of lore ready to adapt or contrive with, from the top strategic layer - eg. managing one or multiple capital ships out of which you operate - down to the small details of weapon mods and character traits for your boots/cephalopod lmbs on the ground. Tabletop is a close second, but it's hard to beat the sheer density you can stuff into a digital game.
If Stellaris has taught me anything, you cripple your empire financially to build as many capital ships as possible then realize your mega fleet can't be everywhere at once.
I like picturing super carriers as carrying small fleets within them. fleets of drones and/or fighters swarm out to help protect the larger ships coming out next(drone shields, or even just by making identification or targeting much more difficult) then out comes destroyers, cruisers, frigates, and other ships. if it's a big enough supercarrier, perhaps even regular Carriers are carried inside. I really like supercarriers when it's not out of sheer cool factor but there are actual reasons for them to exist like in dune with the spacing guilds ships (dunes the only one I know of) or others, where the FTL tech is unable to be powered by smaller ships, or even where perhaps the small ships even have FTL but there's two types, and the small ships have slow FTL(good for within a solar cluster, where with the FTL it takes at most a couple years to get between stars) and the big ships have fast FTL(where in the same time it takes slow FTL to cross between the most distant two stars in a solar cluster it can cross the entire milky way galaxy, and there have experiments with small ships having fast FTL, but every time they either go insane or just blow up)
For a good example of a really messy, if tiny, fleet combined with a structured one, read The Gripping Hand, also called The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye, sequel to Mote In God's Eye. Comparison of Human and Motie ships was interesting.
From what I remember, at least in some Star Trek, they tried to give each type of ship introduced a distinct type. ie, the Defiant is a warship, the Nova is a short range science ship.
Honestly, I’m in love with Sojourns fleet composition. It’s so unique compared to most sci fi universes with its Age of Sail classification and ship rolls in a genuinely semi-hard sci fi setting.
A massive capital ship might have a higher top acceleration than a smaller ship, but would likely have far worse short term maneuverability, slower to turn 180, for example, and also slower to cancel out its current momentum and redirect it, because they have much more mass to push. Only once they start to accelerate in the proper direction could they start to overtake a smaller ship.
For anyone looking for some inspiration on fleet designs too I highly recommend Expeditionary Force (book) by Craig Alanson. It has the slow burn that Stargate does where humanity starts off at the bottom of the food chain in the galaxy with modern tech trying to adapt to a very massive universe. It also has a talking beer can that makes it a blast to chew through. Very Military Sci-fi that spends a LOT of time focusing on tactics and how light delay can factor into warfare.
5:08 *Laughs in Spanish navy having ships with Italian cannons, German firing control systems, French torpedoes and American missiles, with all that mess merged thanks to a Spanish computer*
In my world the Ceres fleet fights a superior Corporate fleet. The Ceres fleet is made up of a dozen civilian ships retroiftted by adding a conical laser shield to the front and hundreds of missiles strapped to the sides, three similar corvettes that are made for anti-piracy and look like shuttles thanks to the engine cones on both sides, and the pride of the fleet which is the first and only battleship, which has a similar design but scaled up (it is massive and has space for factories inside). Only one of the retrofits has an offensive laser, and only the battleship has railguns. The corporate fleet is made up of six living battleships with fusion drives, who can accelerate so quickly that if they had humans inside they would be killed in seconds. Each basically looks like a silver needle, under the skin of which bristles hundreds of railguns and three extremely powerful lasers, along with biological msissiles. Each one has a slightly different design, ranging from the eldest brother who has plain mirror armour, to a middle sibling who has spiral grooves running up his flanks, to the youngest daughter who is almost gothic in her design. I think this illustrates the difference between the fleets well, since one is a cobbled together defence fleet from a fledgeling nation and the other is the pinnacle of technology from a much greater force who can have a uniform fleet of battleships, though due to their organic nature they are still slightly different from each other.
Forgot the most important rule: in biology, every size category - from tiny to huge in a biome - summed up contains the same mass. So you need lots of smaller craft in ratio to a single capital ship. In space, having to live on a ship might limit the lower bound. Carriers could allow maintaining a smaller limit, as crew does not live in the ship. And of course, FTL is a game changer, removing the permanent living onboard, if small craft are FTL capable and faster to deploy on long distance. But also carriers suddenly are either to be hidden, or easily attacked by dropping from FTL. Carriers that maintain FTL could partially dodge that.
I like the way Master of Orion and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri do it: it's always cheaper to specialize that to make a "do-everything" ship--but do-everything ships can--well, do everything. So both have their place. You put your do-everything ships at the center of the battle group, and use your specialized ships as escorts.
I've been working on a story myself and have been working out a system for the main good guys of the story. I've settled on using ships of the line system for it, now the fun part is making the set standard group size or fleet composition ratio for added realism. Such as for every 7 to 12 destroyers you will get a cruiser and a carrier/battleship. Sometimes both. Because they are akin to the Federation but as the central powerhouse of the galaxy. I've been following for a few years now and I keep coming, even revisiting old videos, to see how I can make things even better. I've even totally revamped the fleets of multiple factions in the over all story to help with them and their place in the story's setting better. Such as ballistic and "primitive" lazor weapons on newer to space travel civilizations. This has helped me figure out how to do an unspoken express the advanced level a faction may be at. Through a shorter description of the ships and weapons in use. Maybe I should make this story idea into a game lol
That's something thats been part of the reworking and due to the way the good guys are set up they actually could do such, but I've been noticing that it's not going to help the setting in what's going on. But I have other ideas for that to be shown at some point later on
4:30 another reason why a setting might have 100 of diffrent ship types in simular roles might be because the Navy is not one "nations" navy but multiple each nation having desinged there own Ship X design. and finally the Militia that do not have a set in stone design as each world might have its own Militia Fleet or most likely part of a fleet. or induvidial/groups or corp or what ever it is that can get at least one semi combat ship into space.
TL;DR - a proper fleet composition entirely depends on the setting you find yourself in. What kind of composition is going to be the most effective against the kind of enemies you face. My idea for an example setting against enemy that relies on fleets composed around cruisers and destroyers, with sparse escorts and/or capitals. In that setting, escorts and caps ar primary point-defense providers so enemy fleet lacks in this capability: A few big, well-protected carrier/command ships with tons of... no, not weapons. Sensors, tracking systems, comms - in the end, focused around target acquisition and durability. Some smaller warships as escorts, strike craft primarily of the variety intended against heavier warships (sometimes known as bombers), just to keep enemies from being too cocky with striking the commands. And a separate detachment of another type of big ships, alone, beyond the battlefield. Preferably equipped with stealth systems. These carry large amounts of long range missiles, that they can launch in volleys of thousands. Just launch. Because it is the aforementioned command ships that guide those missiles to their targets. Also: 5:10 - that also means that maintenance of some of such ships is pointless in the long run. The most maintenance-heavy ones are going to become perfect candidates for use in _burning ship_ tactics, or in more modern terms, as ship-sized torpedoes. 6:31 - that is, unless your ships are designed to never be phased out, and instead to be perpetually retrofitted, because for example you have nanotechnology that allows you to completely restructure them, including the base frame, on the run. Then, they are out of commission only temporarily.
You should read Lost Fleet series. It is just great in terms of logical fleet composition, logistics, supply problems and realistic (ish) physics of space combat.
6:27 Also, frequently older ship can be retrofitted with newer components. You swap the engines and the shield generators of a relatively old but functional ship, as long as the technology difference isn't too far off. That's also something done in real life and there are ships that even have preplanned spaces to receive those kinds of upgrades. And it is cheaper than building one from scratch. 7:14 I should have waited a bit. 😅
I would love it if you labeled your clips in the corner or something. It would make it a lot easier to find the original source for some of these cool clips!
Technology matters. If the smallest you can make a FTL drive is 200m long, and 100m across, your primary ships are going to be rather more sizeable than in a setting where the smallest FTL is size of an oil-barrel. Alternatively, if your only form of FTL is by fixed gateways, then the vast majority of ships small enough to fit through said gateways.
Random thought: I think Age of Sail, specifically during the age of Admiral Nelson may be more applicable to space combat than we realize. You basically had three types of warships. The Ship of the Line, the Frigate and the Sloop. You dont need a Battleship to so anti-piracy patrols, Frigates can handle that. But you need Battleships to assault defended systems. The Sloop is there to do minor patrol, courier, and customs stuff. There really isnt going to be a submarine type ship in space that requires a specialized ship with specialized detection equipment and weapons to deal with. So, I figure a Space Navy is going to have Battleships to exert will on the enemy, Frigates to protect and attack commerce, scout ahead for the fleet and such and a sloop to do close surveilance, raiding and the like.
Battleship/Carrier groups are also about showing power without combat. Think of how when the USN wants to make a statement they move a carrier group into fighter range of someone.
It's probably not a super common thing to capture enemy warships intact, but I've always loved books that made that a plot point. What's your navy that's always short on modern ships going to do, just not use whatever you manage to capture or steal? That's something I'd expect to see more in Star Wars too, with how many ships the Rebels reportedly either converted or stole, there should be a lot more Imperial-built ships in Rebel service.
I'm not sure the video really hits on the title. I didn't feel like I came away knowing how to compose a sci fi space fleet, as the title states. It was more just a list of some considerations you might run into when composing a fleet, as well as a listing of some types of ships to consider. Without really explaining the how.
A sci-fi universe I once work on had a pretty interesting (and I'd plausible) take on combat. As the power and resources needed to transit in and out of hyperspace was so great, expeditionary fleets were typically built around massive "Gateships" which had little in the way of offensive weaponry but armoured/shielded like no tomorrow and bristling with defensive armaments. They didn't even serve as Command and Control vessels - all that would be handled by other ships - but were still vitally important to maintain a supply line and communications link to the home system. Actual combat operations would then be carried out by much smaller cruisers, destroyers, frigates, assault carriers, etc - ideally as far away from the Gateship as possible.
3:48 I don't think this image really helps to make the point you're trying to make for a variety of reasons: Only a few of the ships on here are both part of the same faction and served at the same time you have the Harrower and interdictor classes which are both used by the sith but they are used by two different groups of sith separated by 300 years and fill completely different roles You have the nebula class star destroyer and the Republic class star destroyer which are both used by the New Republic but the nebula class is basically the replacement for the Republic class you have the victory, gladiator, allegiance and aggressor classes which were all designed by the Galactic Empire but the victory is a missile destroyer, the allegiance is a battle cruiser, the gladiator is a battle carrier, and the aggressor is an experimental artillery piece that was never put into full production You have the Bakura class destroyer and Namana light cruiser which were used exclusively by the Bakuran Defence Fleet to defend the planet Bakura There's also three pictures of the Pellaeon class which is used by the Galactic empire and does fill the same role as the Imperial class but it was used over 100 years after the Imperial class went out of production I think the point it's trying to make is that the empire has a lot of designs which overlap with each other and are not necessary which is true but it is something that is commented on by characters in universe and make sense considering that the empire is meant to represent fascism and there's nothing fascist governments love more than wasting money on pointless military projects
My go-to strategy in 4x games, since time immemorial, was to start of with a mashup of what can be built on demand in a hurry. As i never really start a game preparing for war from the early game, and instead i focus on building up my economy and research, the war usually finds me. Either from overly hostile neighbors or deep space menaces like space dragons, amoebas and the like. When such needs arise, i scrap a fleet in a jiffy, from what can do the most boom, in the shortest amount of time, for the least expenses possible. This usually involves as many gun-boat or missile/torpedo boat types, corvettes and the like, that can fire a couple of the best warheads they can carry and hope for the best. If the things are really dire, i may add a destroyer for every 4 or 5 corvettes, armed a bit more utilitarian, to serve and quasi-capital ships, and fleet backbones. In the most extreme circumstances, those corvettes may be designed to be as cheep as possible, so cheap in fact, that after they expended their ordnance, they make self-destruct runs at the enemy capital ships. Naturally, all of these aren't expect to survive that long, for to even care about refitting them. Only after i enter the early mid-game, and my tech and economy are somewhat stable, i can afford more long-term designs, and the oldest ships that may be included in refits, are some of those destroyers that still survived. Even then, they are quick to become obsolete, as by mid game, i tend to rely on cruisers for work horse activities, and battleships for capital ships.
@@pancakemixteamdjare you talking about the scene where they are getting their medals with admiral hood? I'm talking about the scene right after with the ships warping in. 9:43
Fleets will be limited by three things: technology (if you can't penetrate shields on corvettes with fighter grade weapons you won't have fighters), the faction's astro-strategic situation (eg: a need to protect long trade lanes means lots of cruisers and escorts), and the faction's socio-political landscape (a divine empire will do things differently from a democratic commonwealth). You can easily use this to create a shorthand for what each faction in the work is (or was) like both socially and strategically. Since ships can last for a long time the discrepancies between old and new equipment can even show changes in a faction's status.
Wishlist Sins of a Solar Empire II and Support Spacedock:
steam.gs/l/157jf/Spacedock
As someone that has been doing the beta testing of SoaSE2, it's what it needs to be but vastly improved.
Like you've got *_ACTUAL TURRETS AND PD_* now!
I played the original back in my high school days - actually psyched to see an ad for the sequel now
Let's just assume UFOs are real. Like find saucers, tic tacs etc.
One thing that has been consistent about UFO, UAP. Whatever you want to call it, is how inconsistent they are.
If the future is additive manufacturing, and rugged individualism, you only make things when you need them.
Also explains why they crash once in awhile. Perfection is the enemy of good.
And your enemy never knows what to expect.
Great choice of sponsor !
I already got all the 1st game and expansions on Steam
I'm not getting EGS just to get the 2nd one.
Naval strategy is build strategy. You will fight a war with what was built years ago
You start a war with what you have you win the war with what you build during the war.
@@Ushio01hmm, may I remind you that even the USN had already ordered and laid down almost all capital ships that pop up in 1944. Even the industry powerhouse that is the US cancelled many of the larger ships that where laid down during entry in WW2 (e.g Iowa 5 / 6, Montana's, etc)
@@Tuning3434 The US cancelled those ships because carrier based aircraft had replaced the battleship as the main form of long range strike.
Range was everything and carrier aircraft were reaching the point they could carry weapon loads comparable to a battleship shell.
The Douglas SBD Dauntless only had it's first flight in 1940 the same year the Iowa's were laid down and the same year the Essex class were ordered.
The Dauntless started being replaced before the end of the war!
For speed of construction look at the Fletcher class of destroyers or Cleveland class of cruisers. 175 Fletchers built between 1941-1945 and 20 or so Cleveland class.
Battleships really are the exception to the rule and were of little use in the actual conflict.
Also keep in mind a common military fallacy...fighting the last war instead of the current one. Which is how you end up with the Battleship Yamato while the Americans are fielding ever more Aircraft Carriers.
@@3Rayfire Japan started building the Yamato and Musashi in 1937 and 1938 the same as the US with the 2 North Carolina class. The US then went on to build 6 more battleships and loads of carriers.
Japan's problem is that they just didn't have the industry to build ships especially such large ones so quickly.
In 1937/8 the USN carriers were still flying biplane bombers the monoplane bombers didn't enter service for 3 years after Yamato was laid down.
From 1918-1937 aircraft development was pretty predictable and slow then in 1937 onwards it went supercharged thanks to new engines allowing much faster and larger aircraft.
Take the USAAF P-1 top speed 154mph in 1923 in 1933 the P-26 could do 234mph that's 80 miles faster in a decade.
Then you have the P-40 300mph in 1939 and was 420mph in 1944 just 5 years later and was slow compared to newer planes already flying!
Kuat Drive Yards, “How many pizzas would you like to order, my Lord?”
Sidious, “Yes! Dew it!”
No i'm imagining 6 ISDs voltroning into a Death Saucer.
@@Sakeretsu They’re not just a Star Destroyer. They’re Transformers!
@@Sakeretsu Is it six that make a circle? I guestimates 8 or 9.
-
Okay. Using data on the ISD1 from Wookiepedia, I come up with an angle for the ISD of 33.382 degrees, which means it takes 18.25 ISD1s to make what would roughly be a triacontakaihexagon (because the back of the ISD is not straight across).
@@isaackim7675 If they can't transform into mega-maids, I don't want it.
*Darth Baras the Wide intensifies*
Random thoughts:
1. One reason to have "battleships" is if they can carry unique weapons denied to smaller vessels by their sheer size. For example, in the Traveller RPG, Capital Ships have "spinal mount" weapons built into the structure of the ship itself and aimed by pointing the entire vessel. They're either particle accelerators or meson guns. These both need a long distance to accelerate their subatomic "projectiles" so it's simply impossible to build small ones.
2. Another reason for ships to get hacked abou... _modified_ is treaties. The interwar period of naval treaties is the classic case in point. Several nations had huge battlecruisers in build which were then rendered illegal by the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty. However this treaty did allow for them to be converted to other uses, and it just so happened to give the signatories a carrier allowance too. Many of the battlecruisers were therefore converted into carriers, since they had both the speed and the size neccessary for the role. Those navies that chose to cancel or scrap their big battlecruisers then had to make do with conversions of slower or smaller ships, while waiting for all-new designs to be finished. These differences in turn influenced the tactical thinking of the navies in question, depending on what kind of carriers they ended up with.
3. Ships can last a VERY long time in service with several navies. A number of US Navy destroyers built at the end of WWII made it into the 21st century, in some cases with their third owners. Needless to say, they'd been refitted and refitted over and over, first of all by the USN and later by their new owners to keep them relevent.
4. You can end up with a hodge-podge of modified second-hand ships by being a lower-tier power with no shipbuilding capability. You have no choice but to buy ships on the open market or get gifted them, with inevitable political strings attached, by a big power "patron". In both cases, the ability to customize the ships to your needs will be limited. If you then change horses and leave the patronage of one great power for another, you may end up with a bizarre mixture of legacy systems and new ones, all on the same vessel. For example, after being dropped by the Soviets following the Yom Kippur war, Egypt had to turn to the west for arms. They ended up with Soviet-supplied Komar class missile boats, re-equipped with Italian missles, British radars, and british-produced, Swiss-designed guns. India wasn't dropped by anybody but didn't want to be over-dependent on anybody either, so they ended up with locally-built, British-designed frigate hulls and steam plants, equipped with Dutch radars, and British, Russian and Swedish weapons. On later ships, Israeli missiles entered the mix.
To 3.
An extreme example in fiction comes from the longest running science fiction series in the world, 'Perry Rhodan'. One ship. the SOL, has been around for a little over 2,100 years. Sometimes lost, taken over by an enemy, constantly upgraded when she makes it home once more, but also sometimes upgraded by the enemy if they have superior technology. By now there it's doubtful that even one bolt from her original construction is left and her refit is practically tradition. Even the ship's computer, SENECA, has evolved over time with the upgrades.
One of the main reasons to use battleships, and one of the big reasons why they where once used, was battleships can also carry the longest ranged weapons available. In fact this was probably their scariest advantage in the dreadnought era, was a battleships guns could reach out and hit target accurately form distances much greater than anything else until aircraft carriers came along.
sci fi seems to like to make battleships close range brawlers for some reason even though this is completely contrary to everything battleships where expected to do.
But the different properties of space means carriers aren't likely to get anywhere near as much of a range, advantage, if at all. a Space battleship can benefit from having the largest and most powerful sensor array of a fleer, thus enabling it to target and fire at other ships from much greater distances, even in cases where primary weapons are missiles.
Spinal mounted fixed weapons really aren't great weapons for this though, because in order to accurately aim the things over any kind of distance, you have to have an insanely precise reaction control system that in all likeliness, just isn't very practical. Spinal mounts only make any kind of sense if they have a mechanism at the muzzle that allows for some kind of off bore shooting. otherwise they are a bit of a dead end technology.
To point 1): it depends on the setting. In Honor Harrington, the Super Dreadnought is the final word in ship class because (due to science of the setting) it carries the most broadside weaponry. Government would love to throw money into churning them out. Later on in the setting the 'Meta' changes drastically so that lasers and grasers become secondary but the Super Dreadnought still reigns.
3) Ship age also varies by setting. I've read books where the hero ship is top of the line but in one case over 120 years old or in another uses tech that cannot be replicated making it a one off super ship. I've also read series where over the course of a decades the MC gets several ships due to combat loss, promotion and other incidents.
@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 For spinal mounted fixed weapons it depends on the settings. Massive objects have a ton of inertia, which helps with stability and sustained fire. Precision reaction control systems that take advantage of rotational inertia do exist and are in use in current satellites.
@@Dreamfox-df6bg Theseus called and wants to know where his ship is. XD
Miranda Class: “I didn’t hear no bell!”
Me: (Remembers the Sea-Tac and the Majestic)
Also Me: Say what now?
Defiant Class: "That's cause your hearing-aid needs new batteries!"
@@Uzarranthe Gagarin and the Crossfield will sit this one out
Oberth: "I did, I absolutely did!"
This just made me remember, I would love a new Empire at War for the Space battles alone.
I would always get 1 Star Destroyer, 2 Victory class, 1 Interdictor, and 4 or 5 Tarkin cruisers for fighter screening.
How are you going to supply your fleet?
@@addisonchow9798 Star Wars isn't really known for resupply ships. The Empire seems to like using cargo shuttles for the role, though.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 The X-Wing games have a number of missions around re-supply efforts. Tend to be large haulers and storage/distribution node stations.
FYI, you can still get and play the old Empire at War.
@@Fishrokk I know, I have over 200 hours in the game on Steam.
One note on Trek is that the Excelsior class was initially designed as a ship that was easy to modify due to the idea that it would be an ongoing testbed for new technologies. It was the first ship that Starfleet attempted to build with a transwarp engine, which while the initial design did not live up to expectations in even the slightest way, it was still regarded as the most flexible ship in Starfleet at the time and came into ubiquity throughout the Federation. That's why it was able to last just so incredibly long.
It was also heavily overengineered to cope with the expected stresses of Transwarp, which meant that the basics of the hull were very rugged and tough.
It was a solid ship.
It's telling that a century later, the Lakota upgrade was still a fearsome warship that could hold its own against the Defiant.
What if Starfleet had made that refit universal amongst the Excelsior class.....?
In some circles it’s thought that transwarp didn’t fail hence the new warp scale since well we only saw if fail because a legendary engineer sabotaged the ship.
The TNG tech book goes into this more that under the hull plating of ships there made so whole rooms/systems could be pulled out and replaced as time goes on. Irc the bridge for most ships could be pulled off and replaced as well.
I've always mentioned that the Excelsior was a class built way ahead of its time.
That's why it survived so long.
It was built to replace the Constitution Class with war in mind. It was also the first Starfleet ship with bubble shields (shields not up against the hull).
@@retluoc I also always had the head cannon that the excelsior was the most efficient federation design, and that every truly long lasting federation design has design limits similar to the excelsior. A reason why I always thought the sovereign was designed to work off the excelsior success
Look at the MCRN. They had a diversified fleet but every ship was able to stand on it's own. Maybe not long but it works. The Donnanger carried smaller ships while flying with others at its side.
The UNSC was built on Frigates. That was smart enough of an idea.
B5 used a good fleet variety. Whitestars in a swarm were lethal as it got.
Trek does rely on old ships but they're a peace time society. Makes sense a good ship would last a while.
If you haven't ever looked at it, I highly recommend looking at the how to build a navy page on Atomic Rockets. The article it's based on was written by Chris Weuve, who is a naval analyst and used to work for the USN's Center for Naval Analysis. It gives you all of the steps that, ideally, you should take to design and build out your fleet. Some of it was touched on here, but I don't think it gets across how your assumptions and resources affect what kind of fleet you wind up with.
I'll agree with this 100%.
Military procurement videos by Perun are also a great source to learn how this stuff works.
@@Ally5141 Perun's videos are a great way to get a feel for some of the real world challenges, agreed. But Weuve's article is where one ought to start. Does no good to understand the challenges of painting a room when you don't know where to put up the walls :D
What is the actual article title because search sucks
Interesting plot point that came up in my RPG Campaign - a highly advanced 'Clarktech' civilisation that intentionally fields outdated ships not just because they're easier to maintain, but lack key technologies that could be stolen and reverse-engineered should the vessel come under enemy hands.
That's a cool idea.
Like the brotherhood of Nod - a high tech core with highly talented people sorounded by many old but reliable tech and ordinary followers.
If you catch one of them - good for you.
But if one of your core techs got stolen, you go predator style and get it back or destroy it.
my WiFi has forced me to listen to 'Sins of a Solar Empire' 5 times now
Genius marketing strategy
I feel sorry, but I am laughing my ass off on the inside 😅
Could be worse, could have been an ad read for literally every other game advertised. This one actually caught my attention
It is gonna be a great game tho 😂
Your Wi-Fi wants you to buy Sins of th Solar Empire. Obey your Wi-Fi.
The mission of the fleet change the make up of the fleet. A deep space patrol will have more ships that can build and repair the fleet while a boarder watch fleet need less ship to repair itself and even less speed.
Also, doctrine - is your fleet a nimble expeditionary strike force meant to smash an enemy and leave, or grind down a defender with superior tanking?
Yes. Before one starts to think about "What ship types should I have in my fleet," one has to decide, "Why do I want to have a fleet? What is my fleet supposed to do?"
1)Drop Homeworld player into the archive of ships from all available sci-fi;
2)watch what they end up stealing.
Jokes aside, I feel like only BSG ever raises a question of fleet logistics. What if FTL stops working and your fleet gets stuck? Suddenly you need capability to resupply and exist within local resources. Which might be new star system or it might be Garden of Kadesh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“This is the Garden of Kadesh. […] There is no withdrawal from the Garden.”
@@BaritoneMonkey*proceeds to withdraw their entire frigate fleet like its a bank*
Some day, many years from now, Spacedock will acknowledge the fact that the Homeworld setting exists.
@@tba113 they did like 2 videos on Homeworld series no?
@@henrycooper3431 it helps to roleplay the fact that you didn't destroy most of them, just replaced captains on their ships, I guess?
Video suggestion: top 10 sci fi factions with the best logistics.
Battlestar Galactica wins out here big time, it’s the only setting that bothers to think about it on screen
@@glynrh8892 ... is Legends of the Galactic Heroes a joke to you? Most of the time, it's the MCs having entire *_EPISODES_* working on the logistics of a major campaign in the original OVA and it is semi-constantly referenced in the new OVA.
Borg because it easier to recruit people and take technology when you can just infect people.
@@TheTrueAdept Not to mention the sheer scale of the logistics in that show, the giant haulers are easily 5 times the size of even the largest capital ships in the series, and with the massive fleets of warships being tossed around those things travel in convoys of hundreds of ships
@@TheTrueAdept yeah, and a couple of characters manage to end major invasions simply through cutting supply lines and letting the occupation collapse
A fleet doesn't just exists, it serves a purpose. This purpose defines the ship types included.
If the purpose of the fleet changes over time, the ship types of the fleet will change to.
A couple of the advantages of Starfleet is ships are built at dozens of different star systems (for real world costs of production we only see Earth and Mars shipyards) but with all the model lines and various ships the largest advantage is they all use compatible tech, and hauls. You can actually take a Galaxy warp nacelle and attach it to a Intrepid class ship. Now its not great, but will let you limp home.
Theres a book (sorry I don't remember the name) that involves the survivors of Wolf 359. Its about 100 people and the cobble together a ship from a intact warp drive, a single nacelle, and various other parts they find and make it to the nearest starbase.
„We call it» the badtard« because it's as ugly as durable.” 😅
6:11 everything you say during this pan of the enterprise being assembled had me busting a gut as it's exactly what one of my friends does while playing Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts every time
Wow, someone know UAD also
Here's an idea for a video concept.
WHAT CONSTITUTES A DESTOYED SHIP
We expect ships that are "Destroyed' to just go boom and disappear in a fiery explosion. Heck in games the destroyed ship is often just REMOVED from its former location after it has been destroyed to leave EMPTY SPACE. But is that going to be the case? What about ships that are adrift?
if a ship runs on AM I suspect the moment the containment loses power there is a big boom and no more ship. However I suspect you would have lots of hulks sitting around with ships running on more conventional fusion and that would be a new hazard for ships still operating in a combat zone. Especially if say that 2km long carrier got its eng sections cored out, well now its a 2km structure moving through the combat zone in what ever direction it was last accelerated in.
Added fun if in orbit of a planet and a ship was moving to a lower orbit when its engineering section went boom you could now have a hulk that may deorbit.
Do you have to deal with wildcat salvagers after a fight.
@@filanfyretracker Yeah, that is interesting. Especially if you get into the shipsizes to rival the Asteroid that killed the Dinosaurs.
Because they might crash faster and space-alloys are a lot more durable than just Rock and Stone. ( Source : Book Series First Contact )
@@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233 hell, an example of that would be in the Honorverse with the Mesans' Operation Oyster Bay. Chunks of ship and space station massing hundreds of thousands of tons de-orbiting out of control, causing massive damage.
@@filanfyretracker I love the idea. Hard kill that leaves a broken hulk (or rapidly expanding debris/plasma), soft kills that remove the ability to fight, mobility kills that remove their ability to maneuver or strand them in a given star system. And that opens up other notions, like videos about rules of warfare and the treatment of prisoners and rescuing the crews of defeated ships, salvage, and if necessary, orbital clean-up jobs.
X4 does it pretty well.
In the wake of pretty much any freshly destroyed ship, is left salvageable cargo, and broken husks that can be harvested & broken down into scrap metal.
I can't say this enough. Thank you for including a source for all of your clips. There's so much good shit in there that I have missed over the years.
I find the geometric fleet formations in LOGH very aesthetically pleasing. It’s a simple way to make out the ludicrous amount of ships amidst the natural backdrop of space.
What's LOGH? :)
@@MrNicoJac Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
@@Mecha82
Thanks!
@@MrNicoJac I suggest the reboot Die Neue These. It's basically the storyline with updated looks and a hotter Yang Wen-li and Reinhard.
@@Techno_Idioto I'm... torn about the Neue These. Art style is nominally better (and much more coherent), and it technically follows the novels more closely... but it's nowhere near complete, and I think the decision to abandon using classical music for the battles was a VERY bad decision.
Since you showed Space Engineers so much love the other day, here's a call back: Varied fleet composition is something that happens almost organically on SE survival multiplayer servers. Most servers run a mod called "quantum hangar", basically you can store grids (ships, rovers, stations) you're not currently using in your own pocket dimension to decrease server load. So what you do is you use a ship for a certain task, build something better, put the old one in the quantum hangar and keep it there just in case.
And then when shit actually hits the fan, you still got all your old stuff in there, ready to be taken out of mothballs ate a moment's notice.
A unique flagship, destroyers, dreadnoughts, corvettes, frigates, dedicated carriers, all for perfect balance, dedicated electronic warfare and spy vessels too. And I can also fully appreciate a clean, purpose built vessel and a ship that’s been cobbled together
Step 1: Build 3000 sovereign classes.
The 3000 Black Sovereigns of Picard!
Where are you going to get the budget?
6000 defiants
No
Thought you meant Mass Effect sovereign classes. Was to stay "you harvest 3000 species" 😅
A modular ship design could allow for ships with the same main hull to perform a variety of roles. Space makes modular designs a lot more practical, since you don't need any particular overall shape (as long as you can protect the connection points).
If we ever do get into space, this is how we'll do it. Getting things built, working and in the right place is a hurdle. It's just too expensive for something to go through all of that and then have to replace it simply because it no longer fits where you need it. Once you start modular, that will remain true and it's really hard to change once things already have a standard.
I don't think modular has ever worked out for any military vehicle.
At most, you might have a few standardized hulls with matching propulsion and life support systems but different configurations of mission-specific equipment. But that would be permanently integrated and not be able to switched out without a complete refit.
Ships would look very similar from the outside, but with different capabilities.
@@Yora21 Sure it has. It's not for all components in all places, but we have an absurd level of standards to make things compatible. At the very least, ammunition, tires, track plates for treads, etc.
Keep in mind the stresses of inertia on the ship,this includes twisting, last thing you need is it popping like legos
Another fun thing you can do, particularly for large star nations, is have slightly different aesthetics for different regions. The far-flung frontier is probably not going to be getting the brand-new flagship deployed there after all. Instead, it's likely going to be given a hodgepodge of the dregs of the fleet. Old ships, perhaps the last of their class cludged together with that frontier mechanical black magic the only thing keeping them working.
And then some crisis happens and an actually modern ship shows up and its a huge deal.
Like imagine a Star Trek story where they're out in the middle of nowhere with Constitutions and Mirandas and other TOS ships but then something big happens and suddenly a Galaxy class is sent by Starfleet. (which then of course is immediately destroyed because the big shot "important" commander with his shiny new ship has an ego the size of Olympus mons and refuses to listen to the advice and warnings of the local officers who actually understand what's going on and local dangers and runs face first into an ambush because that's how these kinds of stories work)
My favorite real life example of what you talk about at 6:59 is the CV-11 Intrepid, a WW2 Essex class carrier that ended up getting a super overhaul and basically becoming a new ship (just look up intrepid before and after refit) where it receives an entirely new flightdeck for use with jets. This crazy ship was first launched in 1943 and went on a very long and eventful career, only finally being retired in 1974, a year where the nuclear powered CV Nimitz had already been in service for two years!
The role of different types of ships might depend on what types of technologies are available to you.
For example, in an era where weapons struggle to overcome armor, heavily armored battleships might serve as meatshield or the only type of ship that does the heavy lifting, while smaller ships serve in fire support, scouting, or other secondary roles. In an era where armor struggle to protect against weapons, however, larger ships might serve as artillery or sensor platforms, while it's the smaller vessels that do most of the fighting.
Also if you think about it. Reactor technology gets more efficient and powerful the larger they are. You you'd imagine that stuff like force fields require alot of energy that smaller ships won't have access too. Also allowing them to sustain hits that would make a large ship crumble. And also being able to have a large arsenal of missiles the perfect space combat weapon
@@mryellow6918 Yeh. However if weapons are extremely powerful and/or your weapons/reactors/fuel/ammo are extremely volatile, a large ship might be more vulnerable than several smaller ships that cost the same. Larger ships are also easier to hit.
@@rystiya7262 id have to disagree with them being easier to hit, at the distances involved, it wont matter. the ship that has the better anti missle defence is gonna win.
@@mryellow6918 If the predominant weapons are rail-guns firing unguided projectiles, larger size does make a ship easier to hit. And yeh if we are talking about missiles, then it’s a different story. As I said, it really depends on what kind of technologies are out there.
@@rystiya7262Today's rail guns have around 3 km/s.
If we assume that it's a very advanced rail gun and have maybe 20 km/s or even 50 - it would still give the target a few seconds warning time, especially in a war when they are closely watching you and your energy radiation.
And even if the ship is just to big to evade in time, they could just shoot something towards the expected shell, like a debris field or something.
You forgot to mention the fact that not all navies need large capital ships. The kinds of ships needed depend on the navy’s mission.
most navies need at least one capital ship to command from, carry limited restocks, provide support and possible ground troops. be very few occasions to not need one.
And also the particular star nation's economic base. A poor, single-system polity might have nothing that qualifies as a capital ship, and their flagship could very well be a middling or even fairly small ship in a first-rate fleet, as they can't afford to build and maintain true capital ships, or have the population base to properly crew them.
I like the united fleets that you can build through treaties in Mass Effect 3. A dozen different species coming together against a seemingly impossible threat.
It's an awesome moment, but I hate that they never show the Geth Fleet, they just say it showed up but then never show it onscreen.
If you haven't yet, watch Babylon 5.
@@darwinxavier3516 its on my list once i finish watch Babylon 1-4
Fleet compositions also depend on what kind of FTL system you have. If you for instance have an FTL system that requires an enormous initial power supply just to get started, but is relatively cheap to scale tonnages afterwards, then your fleet would naturally come to revolve around one or a few giant ships that carry everything else through FTL. That immediately makes your fleet comp one where only stuff that can get carried can be brought, and everything is geared towards protecting the mothership from threats.
I love in Babylon 5 we see the Nova class ships and then later on the Omega Class Destoyers, and you can clearly see the evolution of adding the rotating sections (as well as seeing the Leonov from '2010'). :D
The Omega class was to replace the Hyperion class and make a ship more comparable to what the Minbari were using (a couple of big guns with a large compliment of fighters for every ship) the Nova was a 'how many guns can we fit on the largest ship we can build quickly at this time' ship that it worked was luck even with it's numerous flaws.
@@Ushio01 I get that. It's just from an architectural or ship design POV, you can see they may have stripped down the Nova and built it up from there to the Omega.
After the devastating War with the Minbari, EA probably needed to rush something out of the shipyards asap to build up their forces.
@@padawanmage71 It's been retconned due to a CGI mistake, but the Omegas were in development during the E-M War. The Nova-X ( a Nova with a rotating section) were hurridly built and deployed late in the war, and was much more capable than the Hyperions although it didn't make a difference in the end.
Although given the expected lifetime of the ships they could probably have skipped the rotating section altogether and just done the weapons/sensor upgrades.
Thanks for mentioning the fleet auxiliaries! As in ack Campbell's Lost Fleet saga they're often too slow and cumbersome to be allowed anywhere near the line of battle, but when the big tuff macho battlewagons get dinged up, run out of ammo, or are reduced to running on fumes somebody has to top 'em up and/or fix 'em up. If big and versatile enough a fleet auxiliary can even become a hero ship in its own right (like the USS da Vinci of Star Trek's SCE series) or at least the focus of its own story, like the Deep Space Repair ship Koskiusko from Elizabeth Moon's "Once a Hero," which is targeted by bloody-handed space pirates wanting to make her a mobile drydock for their pirate fleet.
And lets not forget the space repair docks in Halo which are gigantic discs that are easily able to function as literal shields, which thankfully the over engineering of human structures for durability makes them good for at least two volleys each.
I like that you mentioned how some ships may be too expensive or crucial to risk, so they spend most of their time in Port. In the real world, the United States built only 20 B2 bombers. While there actual cost is closely guarded secret it is generally estimated that each one cost about $1 billion at the time, which is a hell of a lot of money. As such they haven’t been used all that much because if there is any other aircraft capable of doing the job that needs to be done, it’s much better to risk that than a very limited and very expensive production run vehicle. If the job cannot be done by any other aircraft, if it specifically needs the capabilities of a B2, then they send in the B2, but they do not use it unless absolutely necessary
Had the Soviet Union not collapsed, the US would have built a lot more
Not really. B-2's are used a lot more than people realize. The limiting factor for them is simply numbers. We didn't buy enough, so now there's not enough for them to be the star. In that case, it's up to the B-1's and B-52's, both of which are well past their prime. Strangely, that also applies to the B-2. The thing is nearly 40 years old.
Hopefully we won't make the same mistakes with the B-21 that we made with so many other MDS in the past few decades.
The B2 is a terrible example. Use the Seawolf-class submarine. Or, as we submariners call them "Pier Puppies". These were state of the art hunter-killers made to end the Soviet Navy. Everything was so cutting edge, that they launched without a torpedo for their class. They have oversized tubes for a projectile that passed the drawing board...because the Cold War ended. They cost more, in todays dollars, than the newer and more capable Virginia Class.
@@Tetsujinhanmaa Had a buddy who served on the Jimmy Carter. He couldn't tell us much other than going back to a 688 was something he considered a big enough downgrade that he got out instead.
@@Tetsujinhanmaa And funny enough, the navy proceeded to do a very similar thing with the zumwalt porgram as well, building what on paper should be a very capable ship without any contemporary examples, and then deciding at the last second they dont want to foot the bill, cancelling any armament for them, and just leaving them to soak up maintenance money for no real use
Babe I know it's 5AM but the thumbnail had a pic from Starsector !
I knew you would understand babe. Love you.
It’s a perennial mention on this channel but BSG: deadlock really did do a fantastic job with this. Enough distinct variety to cater to your play style (I favor slow, tight formation, wall of battle ), but restrained enough to not be overwhelming.
There is nothing that gets my blood pumping like seeing a massive space fleet.
B-R5RB
Oh man, I didn't know Sins of a Solar Empire was getting another game! I am here for that!
I believe that in David Weber's Honorverse, battles between capital ships eventually evolved into glorified tug boats hauling vast quantities of missile pods and then firing them from over huge distances.
This is the final form of space war.
You may not like it, but that's it. 😊
Loved all the starsector images and gameplay. Regrettably, I get to a point where I build a fleet of 2 dreadnoughts and a few destroyers, and then trade most my ships out for a battleship... always takes tons of fuel and supplies to run, so it usually is something I pull out for system defense... really hoping they update it with an option of supplying/donating ships to your system defense fleet, as that would save so much effort of going back to the planet they are on, rearranging the fleet to support them, and then countering an enemy just to immediately put them back in the dock...
Mods.
You can do this with Nexerellin if I remember correctly, the starsector modding scene is massive.
@@Tyrgalon apologies for the late reply; I never got the notification of the response lol. That mod seems great, and last I played I had many running on my game, but could only find threads saying how what I wanted was not possible or not a thing. Thanks for pointing me to that mod :D
@@Suzuki_Hiakura
Np, nex is basically the basis that all other faction mods and thus most of the modding scene as a whole is based around due to how many features it adds and allows factions to come alive and be dynamic :)
Im so glad this channel exists to quench my Sci-Fi thirst every now and then.
Contractually obligated to mention the Honor Harrington universe as a fantastic example of a universe that goes heavily into logistical and fleet composition issues and touches on practically every point in this vid
Like the missile shortage after the Mesans bushwhack all of the Manticoran and Grayson main military industrial nodes, or just ships running out of ammunition.
And, my favourite, the RMN and Graysons really investing in automation as to reduce crew sizes because they don't have the population base to supply "conventional" crews for an extended war.
Also worth mentioning how detailed the break down of all of that can get, especially in House Of Steel, where every class in service in the RMN and GSN gets looked at - production dates, service lives, operational histories and so on.
I think a big part that gets neglected is the strategic situation of the faction that has a fleet being built. If the faction is limited to a single or couple of systems, a large capital ship fleet wouldn't make as much sense as smaller craft.
If there's a war economy and it's a large interstellar conflict going on, then parity with the rival faction is required. The strategic position of a faction/nation/country determines the military mindset, that directs military procurement.
Consider pre-WW2 US, to Vietnam and post Cold War, how drastic the military changed.
Star Trek's incredible array of starship types for the Federation falls into the Slop Zone. I get it that people don't like the huge Inquiry-class fleet from the end of Picard Season 1, but it makes a LOT of sense for the Federation to have a Standard type cruiser that they can build a LOT of - it allows them to work out the bugs of ONE design and produce it widely rather than having dozens of designs with unique outfits.
I like the 1975 Tech manual explanation of Starfleet: there are several mass produced units that can be mixed and matched in a variety of combinations. Honestly, that’s pretty ideal and I am surprised they started doing wildly divergent ship, designs that clearly do not have many interchangeable parts. it avoids the slap zone, but still gives a great deal of variety, and still allows a recognizable design style that you can immediately identify as being a federation
My problem with the Inquiry class was that nothing in ST ever gave the impression that they could do that. EVER. I would have bought it if there were like 30 of them and a mix of Akira, Steam Runners and three Prometheus class ship. That would have been way more believable considering what they fielded during the Dominion War.
Rather than rewriting, i'll just copy/paste my response I wrote:
A couple of the advantages of Starfleet is ships are built at dozens of different star systems (for real world costs of production we only see Earth and Mars shipyards) but with all the model lines and various ships the largest advantage is they all use compatible tech, and hauls. You can actually take a Galaxy warp nacelle and attach it to a Intrepid class ship. Now its not great, but will let you limp home.
Theres a book (sorry I don't remember the name) that involves the survivors of Wolf 359. Its about 100 people and the cobble together a ship from a intact warp drive, a single nacelle, and various other parts they find and make it to the nearest starbase.
@@TetsujinhanmaaThe Dominion War forced Star Fleet to throw whatever it could into battle, strapping whatever guns it had available onto whatever aging space frames it had left out of desperation.
Resulting in the hodgepodge we got on screen.
Starfleet only really had enough resources to develop a few new types during the war like the Prometheus prototype, but likely only a handful were ever produced during the war, Starfleet lacked the resources to churn out vast amounts of these new state of the art ships.
Everything else was a throw together from it’s previous assets on hand.
The Explorer focused Galaxies were repurposed into battleships.
Nebulas became Heavy Cruisers or functioned in fleet support roles with their advanced sensor packages.
Akiras became Frigates.
Some of the Post-359 ships like the Defiant obviously found heavy action, and if anything The Federation owes it’s survival to the borg for giving them the wakeup to build shjps like these with a war-focus, because I don’t think the federation would have lasted a month with the fleet it was fielding prior.
The Sovereign was a rare sight in the dominion war because it was an expensive ship for what it could do, far to valuable to throw to waste on the front, and likely only functioned as a command ship or sent on specialised missions.
The Nova was useless in the dominion war, too lightly armed for battle, too slow to function as a scout, at best it could function as light support in a scanning role but had no place in the vanguard.
The Intrepid was actually ideally suited as a recon scout due to it’s speed, and it could hold it’s own reasonably in battle, but again as an expense it would be wasted in that role, it was far more valuable in specialty assignments, or ferrying high ranking officials at high warp across enemy lines, as we saw in DS9 in one occasion.
Using an intrepid in battle would be like sending commandos to the trenches.
If Starfleet had years to prepare for the Dominion War I have no doubt it’s fleet would looked completely different.
The problem with the inquiry fleet was that actual ship model was unfinished, the scene was also setup poorly. VFX artists on the show have confirmed this, that they ran out of time and had to cobble something together. Which is why it looks bad.
A fleet off Dahak attack moons. Go for overkill is my motto.
There is no overkill, only dead enemies, and counter attack capable enemies.
There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
There is always a bigger fish - Qui gon jinn
That is no moon - Obi wan kenobi
MOAR DAKKA!! NEEDS MORE DAKKA!! - 40K Orks...
Are you even trying if your ships aren't big enough to affect the tides on the planet below?
Speaking solely from star sector but it's interesting to try and other games as well is the "unique fleet doctrine." You can only have one of each kind of capital ship. On the one hand this is an arbitrary challenge limitation to make the star sector a little more difficult because if you find one capital ship blueprint you will just stuff your fleet with as many as you can fit but if you come across a fleet that happens to be modified in a way that counters that particular ship it can counter your entire fleet. If every ship is a different hull with different weapons they will all have different strengths and weaknesses. Then the workhorses will reveal themselves the ships that are always left standing at the end of every battle. In a setting with modular weaponry and upgrades a relatively benign fleet can up armour very quickly.
Modular ship design can address the spare parts problem , if you have a standard parts that are compatible with every ship class in your fleet your logistics becomes simple because a standard armor panel square that can be cut to fit on site and bonded together with other panels that a frigate or a dreadnought can use then your supply depot just got a load smaller or a load more useful to everyone while remaining the same size. the same applies for parts for other systems , having generic parts that can be used to build power plants or propulsion units of any size is more useful than having individualized spares with incomparable parts. Plus it will allow for easier repairs after a battle , a carrier could send over some spare reactor parts to fix a problem with a frigate's reactor rather than abandoning that frigate and leaving it to wait for a specialist repair ship or limp back to a depot.
Love the notion of standardized components, but there are some limits as to what can be done. Larger armor panels would spread a given impact over a larger area, for example, so a corvette-sized panel on a battleship would present a weak point. Power plant and propulsion components, likewise, wouldn't be necessarily interchangeable. But internal partitions that aren't load-bearing, some system components, most definitely.
Wow, I remember playing Sins in college. I loved playing as the TEC Loyalists, building 5 Space Stations around a Star and blockading the major jump lanes, securing trade routs and denying trade shipping lanes to my enemies.
„I call it» the toll collector«”.
6:00 This makes for some of the best storytelling. A world with old and new ships classes - like Star Trek - feels alive and evolving.
If you have energy shielding and replicators you could easily turn asteroids into ships. No reason to have weird ship design like Star-Trek it really just rule of cool. Most ships should be cubes
RAAAAAA STARSECTOR IN THE THUMBNAIL🚀🚀🚀🚀WTF IS A [REDACTED]🚀🚀🚀
Its redacted
SUPER ALABASTER INCOMING
If you don't know, then you've not been [REDACTED].
After you have [REDACTED] your [REDACTED] plus a few.
It's really cool.
Your Omega Odyssey with full captain build after single handedly killing the largest hegemony ai inspection the sector ever saw without even taking damage. Refuses to elaborate further. Goes back to storage. 🗿
That thing is unstoppable. The only thing that comes close is the ziggy.
But jokes aside the volatile particle driver is probably one of the best weapons omega has blessed us with. THREE THOUSAND kinetic dps is just insane. Perfect for odyssey since its a hit and run ship. Plasma burn in, dump 9k kinetic dmg on some poor sob, plasma burn out. With shield modulation, helmsmanship, sysex and ordnance expertise you are quite literally untouchable. I dont know why ppl sleep on the ody. Its literally one of if not the best capital. As fast as an eagle. Insane shields with a very deep flux pool and good dissipation. The only real competition it has is the nova, but that thing is miserable. The conquest doesnt even get close to the level of violence you can achieve with the true broadside battlecruiser. Man i fricking love that thing. Its my favorite thing ever, in the history of forever. I think about everyday, i think about this all night long, i stay away, not sleeping thinking about this thing. Closely followed by the non pirate eradicator
@@nobody8717 the [REDACTED] have some of the best stuff
5:38 RIP Nebulous, after today's announcement, it's basically never going to be more than it currently is
EDIT: interesting, he released the abandoned prototype for conquest mode
Wait, what announcement
steam news June update :/
@@Sephiroth144 development ceased on the conquest mode, basically it's just gonna stay a skirmish game. they're just planning on adding new ships, it seems
@@disregardthat Ooooph; yeah, that sucks.
@@disregardthat It was paused, he will go back to it, but its going to need more work.
Before composing a fleet there must be an idea of what each ship class does, for my fantasy scenario it is something like this:
Fighters.
Possibly divided in: Interceptors (very fast and light, used mostly as scramblers for defence), Superiority (good balance and multirole but doesnt excel in anything, often used as fighter-bombers or escorts for proper bombers), Bombers (big and heavy, not very agile but fast enough for bombing runs against big targets).
Shuttles.
Mostly used for transports of any kind, from cargo to personell, to marines boarding parties, some specialized variant may be used for early warning, ECM, and short range police duty.
Corvettes (150m).
Divided by specialty, a gunship corvette may be an excellent anti fighter ship, a wolfpack of torpedo corvette could threaten much larger capitals, other roles could be minelaying/minehunting, stealth infiltration, comm relays, etc. Typically used by local militias and dedicated planetary defence.
Frigates (300m).
Relatively long range, multirole ships that can both fend off fighters and become a worry for bigger ships, used mostly for system-wide patrols and are often the flagships of local security and mercenary groups. Smallest vessel that can support a hangar (2-4 fighters or 1-2 utility shuttles). Used in wings they can screen a fleet and harass enemy exposed lines.
Destroyers (600m).
Escort ships par excellence, very fast and with weaponry dedicated specifically to the destruction of vessels smaller than itself. Their great efficacy at that role comes at the price of a lack of versatility, sometimes partially mitigated by carrying a wing of bombers in their small hangar. Used to screen fleets, close-in escort to bigger capital ships and protect convoys. Some especially important planets or well funded militias can use them VERY effectively against big pirate gangs.
Cruisers (1200m).
Effectively a bigger version of frigates. Long range multirole ships perfectly capable of remaining in the void for extended periods. Depending on the situation they can be used for multi-system patrol, close-in escort, commerce raiding, and even battleline fights. Their hangar can house two full wings of fighters (or more often one wing + shuttles).
Light Carriers (1200m).
Based on cruiser hulls but with all their heavy weaponry removed to make space for hangars for several wings of fighters and shuttles, with a light escort of destroyers and frigates they can be used to patrol systems that can be too dangerous for a single cruiser to deal with. Also used in support of larger battlegroups and training duties.
Assault Ship (1200m)
A variant of light carriers that focuses on housing a full land invasion force and the fighter wing necessary to provide air support. Can be used to ferry also large amount of important cargo in its vast interior spaces.
Battlecruiser (1500m)
Based on cruiser hulls but with bigger engines and much bigger weapons. Very fast and with a strong punch but with a glass jaw. They are not very common as their favorite niche is to harass the rear lines of an enemy, engaging targets in hit and run tactics, or blasting away lightly protected objectives before running away as fast as they can, sometimes accompanied by one or two supporting destroyers. More often used instead for orbital bombardment. The extra space necessary for the enlarged systems means that the hangar had to be reduced to a single wing of fighters or shuttles.
Battleship (2000m)
Big armored ships that lose a bit of the speed of battlecruisers, but gain much more armor, making them the ideal ships of the line. Aside from their big weapons they also retain much of the lighter armament of cruisers, making them multirole ships also usable for escort, bombardment and raids. When not used to bolster the escort of a fleet carrier, they often set sail in the middle of a strike group of their own. Their only limiting factors are the small hangar space of two wings, and high cost of building and operations.
Fleet Carrier (2200m)
The core of many strike groups and the ultimate in power projection, fleet carriers have very limited armament, composed almost exclusively of short range self-defence weapons, but they make it up thanks to their speed, relatively heavy armor, and especially big hangars, housing many wings of both fighters and shuttles. Very expensive to buid and maintain, they enter the field in the middle of a thick multi-layered escort screen, from which they can send waves upon waves of fighters to destroy the enemy.
Titan (aka battlecarrier, aka dreadnought) (5000+m)
A one-ship fleet that fuses together a fleet carrier and a battleship. Ideally used to wreak havok in the rear lines of an enemy, who is then forced to divide their resources to deal with both the front line and the Titan, they are so few and so expensive that most of the times, when they enter battle, they do it from the centre of a massive formation of friendly ships. Alternatively they are frequently used for propaganda and big-stick diplomacy.
Auxiliaries (100-5000m)
Most common of these are the fast logistic ships used to replenish roaming battlegroups, other examples include hospital ships, transports, repair ships (the largest of which could be mobile drydocks), science vessels, and so on.
Now if you're still reading, you can come up with the best fleet combination yourself, or if you're interested, i cold come up with mine.😃
Bad naming conventions.
You're still basing them all on Earth ocean vessel classes.
Example: destroyers were actually originally termed as torpedo-boat destroyers but it got shortened to one word.
Another example of bad naming in your post: what exactly did you think "frigate" originally was named as for and what happened to make it happen that way?
It's funny to see the Brazilian monitor Parnaíba shown. She's so old she originally had a reciprocating engine that was replaced with a diesel engine when she was modernized.
Just some notes I found years ago:
A “Capitol” ship is a ship that: if the rest of the ships in a Task Unit are lost the Unit can still effectively complete the assigned task. If this ship is lost, the rest of the unit cannot effectively complete the assigned task.
Squadron: A small number of vessels (Task Elements) includes capital ships, and other ship types; not to be confused with ground and air squadrons.
Flotilla: A small number of vessels (Task Elements) with no capital ships, usually of the same or similar types.
EG the Carrier in a Carrier Battle Group would be the Capitol ship, and in Squadron with its Oiler/Tender. The Offensive screen and Defensive screen ships would be their own flotillas.
I thought a capital ship was defined as a ship that can launch other boats, making everything down to a sloop-of-war a capital ship by technicality. Can you comment?
I’m working on making a full complement of ships, from fighters to a tactical carrier in space engineers. So far I have a light, medium, and heavy fighters, a light destroyer and the tactical carrier is about 50% done. And I’ve been taking all of the ideas I’ve seen from your vids for the weapons and systems. Mostly heavy shields and high mobility, with a lot of railguns and missiles. And a full cover of layered point defense on the larger ships.
Manufacturing ships would be a very important one. You can't just head back to port or order a new thingabob, you need a ship that can get the resources (recycled or new) and have the equipment and skilled labor to make a new one. That might be a bigger target than the carrier or big battleships.
Starsector referenced! That game is the best space strategy game I have ever played.
the best example of exploring fleet design us the UNSC Spirit of Fire, a colony ship turned carrier in what can only be described as "an army printer gone rogue"
plenty of logi, a factory suite, built for sitting in orbit with support, and approximately 7 days older than dirt. seriously, even at the REFIT it got obsolete point defense cannons that got used on exactly 3 ships before they tossed it.
finishing up with a clip of the only 2 victory class destroyers known to exist. Ending in style!
First step is to ignore the first step of this video. I'm sorry, Fleet design is the _fourth_ step in designing a Fleet. The first step is figuring out your Strategic Assumptions. The Second Step is your Strategic Goals. The Third Step is Fleet Missions. The Fourth Step is Fleet Design. The Fifth Step is Force Size. The Sixth Step is Force Management.
This list is from page 513 of House of Steel's inserted essay (Building a Navy in the Honorverse) written by David Weber and Christopher Weuve. While it was written with the Honorverse in mind, it is based on Christopher's experience as an analyst of the US Naval War College. So, what ships you want in your fleet depends entirely on the technological advances of the IP, the threats your fleet is designed to fight, how much resources you actually have to build, maintain and _man_ your fleet... so your generalities are pretty much not helpful without the context of the rest you've never mentioned. Though they can start a person thinking about all of the rest.
Hodge podge shines in games: the mechanics keep things consistent and organized while lore explains the variety. Single player games in junkyard space operas are a match made in heaven (ayy). Explanations for how each Galaxy-class is modified may end feeling confined, not so in Star Wars or 40k. Put a pirate fleet manager or X-COM in those settings and you have plenty of lore ready to adapt or contrive with, from the top strategic layer - eg. managing one or multiple capital ships out of which you operate - down to the small details of weapon mods and character traits for your boots/cephalopod lmbs on the ground. Tabletop is a close second, but it's hard to beat the sheer density you can stuff into a digital game.
If Stellaris has taught me anything, you cripple your empire financially to build as many capital ships as possible then realize your mega fleet can't be everywhere at once.
I like picturing super carriers as carrying small fleets within them. fleets of drones and/or fighters swarm out to help protect the larger ships coming out next(drone shields, or even just by making identification or targeting much more difficult) then out comes destroyers, cruisers, frigates, and other ships. if it's a big enough supercarrier, perhaps even regular Carriers are carried inside. I really like supercarriers when it's not out of sheer cool factor but there are actual reasons for them to exist like in dune with the spacing guilds ships (dunes the only one I know of) or others, where the FTL tech is unable to be powered by smaller ships, or even where perhaps the small ships even have FTL but there's two types, and the small ships have slow FTL(good for within a solar cluster, where with the FTL it takes at most a couple years to get between stars) and the big ships have fast FTL(where in the same time it takes slow FTL to cross between the most distant two stars in a solar cluster it can cross the entire milky way galaxy, and there have experiments with small ships having fast FTL, but every time they either go insane or just blow up)
You guys are great. Glad to see your following is growing. Well earned.
Yay, Phrosphor! He's done loads of Nebulous videos (and I suspect, will be doing more).
For a good example of a really messy, if tiny, fleet combined with a structured one, read The Gripping Hand, also called The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye, sequel to Mote In God's Eye.
Comparison of Human and Motie ships was interesting.
From what I remember, at least in some Star Trek, they tried to give each type of ship introduced a distinct type. ie, the Defiant is a warship, the Nova is a short range science ship.
Thank you for the shoutout :) Great video.
Sins of a Solar Empire is an awesome game.
Honestly, I’m in love with Sojourns fleet composition.
It’s so unique compared to most sci fi universes with its Age of Sail classification and ship rolls in a genuinely semi-hard sci fi setting.
A massive capital ship might have a higher top acceleration than a smaller ship, but would likely have far worse short term maneuverability, slower to turn 180, for example, and also slower to cancel out its current momentum and redirect it, because they have much more mass to push. Only once they start to accelerate in the proper direction could they start to overtake a smaller ship.
For anyone looking for some inspiration on fleet designs too I highly recommend Expeditionary Force (book) by Craig Alanson. It has the slow burn that Stargate does where humanity starts off at the bottom of the food chain in the galaxy with modern tech trying to adapt to a very massive universe. It also has a talking beer can that makes it a blast to chew through. Very Military Sci-fi that spends a LOT of time focusing on tactics and how light delay can factor into warfare.
This is one of your best overview/worldbuilding guides ever. So much great practical advice!
5:08 *Laughs in Spanish navy having ships with Italian cannons, German firing control systems, French torpedoes and American missiles, with all that mess merged thanks to a Spanish computer*
In my world the Ceres fleet fights a superior Corporate fleet. The Ceres fleet is made up of a dozen civilian ships retroiftted by adding a conical laser shield to the front and hundreds of missiles strapped to the sides, three similar corvettes that are made for anti-piracy and look like shuttles thanks to the engine cones on both sides, and the pride of the fleet which is the first and only battleship, which has a similar design but scaled up (it is massive and has space for factories inside). Only one of the retrofits has an offensive laser, and only the battleship has railguns. The corporate fleet is made up of six living battleships with fusion drives, who can accelerate so quickly that if they had humans inside they would be killed in seconds. Each basically looks like a silver needle, under the skin of which bristles hundreds of railguns and three extremely powerful lasers, along with biological msissiles. Each one has a slightly different design, ranging from the eldest brother who has plain mirror armour, to a middle sibling who has spiral grooves running up his flanks, to the youngest daughter who is almost gothic in her design. I think this illustrates the difference between the fleets well, since one is a cobbled together defence fleet from a fledgeling nation and the other is the pinnacle of technology from a much greater force who can have a uniform fleet of battleships, though due to their organic nature they are still slightly different from each other.
Forgot the most important rule: in biology, every size category - from tiny to huge in a biome - summed up contains the same mass. So you need lots of smaller craft in ratio to a single capital ship. In space, having to live on a ship might limit the lower bound. Carriers could allow maintaining a smaller limit, as crew does not live in the ship.
And of course, FTL is a game changer, removing the permanent living onboard, if small craft are FTL capable and faster to deploy on long distance. But also carriers suddenly are either to be hidden, or easily attacked by dropping from FTL.
Carriers that maintain FTL could partially dodge that.
I like the way Master of Orion and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri do it: it's always cheaper to specialize that to make a "do-everything" ship--but do-everything ships can--well, do everything. So both have their place. You put your do-everything ships at the center of the battle group, and use your specialized ships as escorts.
I've been working on a story myself and have been working out a system for the main good guys of the story. I've settled on using ships of the line system for it, now the fun part is making the set standard group size or fleet composition ratio for added realism. Such as for every 7 to 12 destroyers you will get a cruiser and a carrier/battleship. Sometimes both. Because they are akin to the Federation but as the central powerhouse of the galaxy. I've been following for a few years now and I keep coming, even revisiting old videos, to see how I can make things even better. I've even totally revamped the fleets of multiple factions in the over all story to help with them and their place in the story's setting better. Such as ballistic and "primitive" lazor weapons on newer to space travel civilizations. This has helped me figure out how to do an unspoken express the advanced level a faction may be at. Through a shorter description of the ships and weapons in use. Maybe I should make this story idea into a game lol
Don't forget to assign roles to your classes. Cruisers shouldn't be doing commerce patrols.
That's something thats been part of the reworking and due to the way the good guys are set up they actually could do such, but I've been noticing that it's not going to help the setting in what's going on. But I have other ideas for that to be shown at some point later on
2:04
I've watched that clip of the infinity ram that covenant ship in half, probably 1000 times.
And I will happily watch it 1000 times more.
4:30 another reason why a setting might have 100 of diffrent ship types in simular roles might be because the Navy is not one "nations" navy but multiple each nation having desinged there own Ship X design.
and finally the Militia that do not have a set in stone design as each world might have its own Militia Fleet or most likely part of a fleet.
or induvidial/groups or corp or what ever it is that can get at least one semi combat ship into space.
TL;DR - a proper fleet composition entirely depends on the setting you find yourself in. What kind of composition is going to be the most effective against the kind of enemies you face.
My idea for an example setting against enemy that relies on fleets composed around cruisers and destroyers, with sparse escorts and/or capitals. In that setting, escorts and caps ar primary point-defense providers so enemy fleet lacks in this capability:
A few big, well-protected carrier/command ships with tons of... no, not weapons. Sensors, tracking systems, comms - in the end, focused around target acquisition and durability. Some smaller warships as escorts, strike craft primarily of the variety intended against heavier warships (sometimes known as bombers), just to keep enemies from being too cocky with striking the commands.
And a separate detachment of another type of big ships, alone, beyond the battlefield. Preferably equipped with stealth systems. These carry large amounts of long range missiles, that they can launch in volleys of thousands. Just launch. Because it is the aforementioned command ships that guide those missiles to their targets.
Also:
5:10 - that also means that maintenance of some of such ships is pointless in the long run. The most maintenance-heavy ones are going to become perfect candidates for use in _burning ship_ tactics, or in more modern terms, as ship-sized torpedoes.
6:31 - that is, unless your ships are designed to never be phased out, and instead to be perpetually retrofitted, because for example you have nanotechnology that allows you to completely restructure them, including the base frame, on the run. Then, they are out of commission only temporarily.
You should read Lost Fleet series. It is just great in terms of logical fleet composition, logistics, supply problems and realistic (ish) physics of space combat.
6:27
Also, frequently older ship can be retrofitted with newer components.
You swap the engines and the shield generators of a relatively old but functional ship, as long as the technology difference isn't too far off.
That's also something done in real life and there are ships that even have preplanned spaces to receive those kinds of upgrades.
And it is cheaper than building one from scratch.
7:14
I should have waited a bit. 😅
sins of a solar empire 2?
Thankyou space dock, i hadn't heard about that anywhere!! One of my favourite games getting a sequel
You're a Brave One, Showing the latest Mac Ross movie scene. Also, FUHarmonyGold
I would love it if you labeled your clips in the corner or something. It would make it a lot easier to find the original source for some of these cool clips!
Technology matters. If the smallest you can make a FTL drive is 200m long, and 100m across, your primary ships are going to be rather more sizeable than in a setting where the smallest FTL is size of an oil-barrel. Alternatively, if your only form of FTL is by fixed gateways, then the vast majority of ships small enough to fit through said gateways.
I like the idea of Behemoths protecting choke points and solar systems. Cruiser and below used for fast strikes.
Random thought:
I think Age of Sail, specifically during the age of Admiral Nelson may be more applicable to space combat than we realize.
You basically had three types of warships. The Ship of the Line, the Frigate and the Sloop.
You dont need a Battleship to so anti-piracy patrols, Frigates can handle that.
But you need Battleships to assault defended systems.
The Sloop is there to do minor patrol, courier, and customs stuff.
There really isnt going to be a submarine type ship in space that requires a specialized ship with specialized detection equipment and weapons to deal with.
So, I figure a Space Navy is going to have Battleships to exert will on the enemy, Frigates to protect and attack commerce, scout ahead for the fleet and such and a sloop to do close surveilance, raiding and the like.
Battleship/Carrier groups are also about showing power without combat. Think of how when the USN wants to make a statement they move a carrier group into fighter range of someone.
It's probably not a super common thing to capture enemy warships intact, but I've always loved books that made that a plot point. What's your navy that's always short on modern ships going to do, just not use whatever you manage to capture or steal? That's something I'd expect to see more in Star Wars too, with how many ships the Rebels reportedly either converted or stole, there should be a lot more Imperial-built ships in Rebel service.
they used a bunch until the new republic was formed then the new republic scrapped them all because "bad guy ships"
7:12 Always nice to see the Parnaiba, the oldest active duty combat vessel, get some recognition!
7:00 -- a minor correction, the scene with a Miranda class there was Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan (1982), and not Star Trek: Generations (1994).
I'm not sure the video really hits on the title. I didn't feel like I came away knowing how to compose a sci fi space fleet, as the title states. It was more just a list of some considerations you might run into when composing a fleet, as well as a listing of some types of ships to consider. Without really explaining the how.
A sci-fi universe I once work on had a pretty interesting (and I'd plausible) take on combat. As the power and resources needed to transit in and out of hyperspace was so great, expeditionary fleets were typically built around massive "Gateships" which had little in the way of offensive weaponry but armoured/shielded like no tomorrow and bristling with defensive armaments. They didn't even serve as Command and Control vessels - all that would be handled by other ships - but were still vitally important to maintain a supply line and communications link to the home system. Actual combat operations would then be carried out by much smaller cruisers, destroyers, frigates, assault carriers, etc - ideally as far away from the Gateship as possible.
idk what I'm more hyped about. Finding my new lore source for my writing, or finding out Sins of a Solar Empire 2 is coming out this summer.
Nebulous Fleet Command
The game where your navy is built around Bulk carriers and shuttles
3:48 I don't think this image really helps to make the point you're trying to make for a variety of reasons:
Only a few of the ships on here are both part of the same faction and served at the same time
you have the Harrower and interdictor classes which are both used by the sith but they are used by two different groups of sith separated by 300 years and fill completely different roles
You have the nebula class star destroyer and the Republic class star destroyer which are both used by the New Republic but the nebula class is basically the replacement for the Republic class
you have the victory, gladiator, allegiance and aggressor classes which were all designed by the Galactic Empire but the victory is a missile destroyer, the allegiance is a battle cruiser, the gladiator is a battle carrier, and the aggressor is an experimental artillery piece that was never put into full production
You have the Bakura class destroyer and Namana light cruiser which were used exclusively by the Bakuran Defence Fleet to defend the planet Bakura
There's also three pictures of the Pellaeon class which is used by the Galactic empire and does fill the same role as the Imperial class but it was used over 100 years after the Imperial class went out of production
I think the point it's trying to make is that the empire has a lot of designs which overlap with each other and are not necessary which is true but it is something that is commented on by characters in universe and make sense considering that the empire is meant to represent fascism and there's nothing fascist governments love more than wasting money on pointless military projects
My go-to strategy in 4x games, since time immemorial, was to start of with a mashup of what can be built on demand in a hurry. As i never really start a game preparing for war from the early game, and instead i focus on building up my economy and research, the war usually finds me. Either from overly hostile neighbors or deep space menaces like space dragons, amoebas and the like. When such needs arise, i scrap a fleet in a jiffy, from what can do the most boom, in the shortest amount of time, for the least expenses possible. This usually involves as many gun-boat or missile/torpedo boat types, corvettes and the like, that can fire a couple of the best warheads they can carry and hope for the best. If the things are really dire, i may add a destroyer for every 4 or 5 corvettes, armed a bit more utilitarian, to serve and quasi-capital ships, and fleet backbones. In the most extreme circumstances, those corvettes may be designed to be as cheep as possible, so cheap in fact, that after they expended their ordnance, they make self-destruct runs at the enemy capital ships.
Naturally, all of these aren't expect to survive that long, for to even care about refitting them. Only after i enter the early mid-game, and my tech and economy are somewhat stable, i can afford more long-term designs, and the oldest ships that may be included in refits, are some of those destroyers that still survived. Even then, they are quick to become obsolete, as by mid game, i tend to rely on cruisers for work horse activities, and battleships for capital ships.
at exactly 9:42, a bunch of ships warp in and the title at the top left says Halo. which halo is this?
Halo 2, when they remastered the game
@@pancakemixteamdj I played through that. Do you have any idea where in the h2 remaster?
@@ernest9868 should be right at the start with the opening cutscenes right before the first mission of defending the space station
@@pancakemixteamdjare you talking about the scene where they are getting their medals with admiral hood? I'm talking about the scene right after with the ships warping in. 9:43
@@ernest9868 oh that scene not sure completely, but I think that might be from Halo show maybe towards the end of season 2
Fleets will be limited by three things: technology (if you can't penetrate shields on corvettes with fighter grade weapons you won't have fighters), the faction's astro-strategic situation (eg: a need to protect long trade lanes means lots of cruisers and escorts), and the faction's socio-political landscape (a divine empire will do things differently from a democratic commonwealth).
You can easily use this to create a shorthand for what each faction in the work is (or was) like both socially and strategically. Since ships can last for a long time the discrepancies between old and new equipment can even show changes in a faction's status.
Huh. Glad to see Macross in this! And that is why I love Spacedock.