Team Rocket at least got many focus episodes and episodes about how much their mons love them. Blizzard would rather fall under the weight of endless stolen breast milk bottles than portray the Scarlet Crusade as anything but evil chuds.
I don't understand how the Scarlet Crusade is this everlooming threat, a boogeyman in the night, singlehandedly destroying all the Scourge left in Northrend, and now taking over Tirisfal, and then they still achieve nothing and get destroyed.
also breaks apart into infighting or gets mind controlled and works undead several times And breaks apart into other factions except without infighting this time Somehow (in reality it's the dark elves situation, the frozen wastes living dark elves who constantly kill each other can still muster armies capable of threatening continental empires on a whenever-the-writers-want-them-to basis)
Probably because most of the strongest champions and armies left to fight for azeroth, leaving their original posts either empty or bare boned. So it's mostly settlers and local town militias to protect.
The KKK had their back broken in the 1870s by Grant, and yet those SOBs keep coming back. People still quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion like it wasn’t the fakest crap ever written by hate and use it as some seed for their variety of nutjob conspiracy theory. Folks to this day after decades of trickle-down economics still think they weren’t made worse off for it their entire lives and still want to keep trying to make it work, since they don’t see themselves as the victims; only “the poor.” Hate, fear, and garden variety stupidity are evergreen and when set up right powerful motivators. If you can’t inspire them with good ideas and follow them through, inspire them with hate and they stop caring about your ability to deliver
That cinematic was re-rendered/reshot/whatever with Wc3 Reforged, the old one from 20 years is way lower resolution than the new one shown ingame/reforged
Honestly I hope she never comes back. This would be a good opportunity to close Sylvanas' door forever. Do you know how many souls were forced into the Maw? Countless, we're not talking millions here, billions; it's gonna take a lot of time for just one person to get all those souls back. Maybe we could get an epilogue after WoW's story has ended where hundreds of years later, she finally completes her task, and then leave it off open-ended. Sylvanas was a great character who became the unfortunate victim of bad writing. The only characters they've screwed up more/similarly are Kael'thas and Med'an, thankfully Med'an isn't canon but Kael'thas' story in SL was handled... decently, better than Sylvanas' was, anyway. This heritage armor story shows they're handling Sylvanas better now, but it just doesn't feel genuine, especially after her betrayal scenes back in BfA.
The Sylvanas message made me really sad. A lot of us are mourning both the in-game implications of her AND the bad developer decisions. That hit me really hard.
@@godwishyoutube Sylvanas always remained true to her character since Warrcaft, an achievement for a character used by almost all WoW expansions, especially the first messy ones. In fact, this dialog right her is by far the closest to a betrayal of her mindset with Legion, but this last was explained as she was lying as always of course, and now well, she as a reason to change (but if she would lost her ability to die in peace freely again, she would still be ready to do the worse again)
@@godwishyoutube Yes. I was following shadowlands hoping Sylvanas was actually plotting against the Jailor.... that arrow scene felt so weak... I wanted her to be badass.....
I sort of want to shout "Do you guys not realise he was super possessed??" Like everyone else gets to say "Oh, sorry hey. I was bad, but regret it now." But Arthas loses his whole soul and is a disgrace. It frustrates me forever because it's not so much as unjust as it is double standard.
@@CappyK He wasn't posessed. He aws manipulated, but it was still his doing. He wasn't under control of Zovaal, what was one of the main problems Zovaal had, that the guy didn't do at all what he wanted. And the ending was absolutely fitting. If you would whitewash Arthas' atrocities for pretty much nothing, that would ruin Arthas' story completely. He got a death that was fitting and at least sad, but his victims let go, leaving tranquility. You could say that Uther doomed him in the afterlife - but this was again Arthas' own doing, who had corrupted his teacher, what led to this.
@@CappyKHe was a cruel and arrogant person even before facing the scourge. Just listen to him any time he's faces the orcs. Ner'zul picked him for a reason.
"So much more than arrows in my quiver" that part hit hard because that is such a common quote from her, that her soldiers were just arrows to be used and discarded.
which was kinda ironic considering arrows are actually pretty valuable to archers, since they have a finite amount in their quiver and often take a lot of skill to craft well.
Which was 100% what she was as acharacter. All her actions, from Warcraft 3 to even the trashfire that was BFA, she was a PoS who cared for herself first and second. Shadowlands did her a huge disservice by making her something she was never meant to be: a misunderstood good guy.
Idk, there's certainly more duality to her than that. I think she gave off a gruff attitude on purpose, much like she will give the player when they meet. She'll even throw the locket to the ground and claim it has no significance to her, but when you walk away she picks it up and recites the lament of the highborne. Sylvanas was never just a moustache twirling villian, she had depth and background, BFA tried to make her a sunday night cartoon villian, which is cheap and uninteresting.@@Leunenkoenig
@@LightsFuzzy Her nostalgia for her life when she was alive has nothing to do with any duality. The locket does not refute her caring about anyone else but herself - in fact, if you want to bring her family into this, there's the really cool story where she tries to murder her sister Vereesa so she can then raise her as an undead. You know, so they could truly be one family again. Even when Warcraft was losing its way and the story became more and more non-sensical, (and simp-y,) they failed to think up even a single noteworthy story for Sylvanas that didn't make her a self-centered megalomaniac. WHICH IS FINE. The Forsaken are a trashy people of sorrow, hate and self-loathing. Their queen and leader being a back-stabbing, short-sighted, and sadistic psychopath makes sense and was a benefit to the story for the longest time. Sylvanas was a good character because she was an *actual* character. The issue with her was one of the writers, where almost none of her ret4rded actions had any true consequences for her.
Except she doesn't murder Vereesa, even though she had the opportunity to. She never signals them to attack, and even her dark rangers are surprised and question her on this. She originally only wanted to kill Vereesa to raise her as an undead to live with her in Undercity because she feared the undead would never accept her otherwise - if thats not a show of humanity then I dont know what is. So if you're gonna cite that story, please make sure to cite all of it and not just the part that suits your agenda. She has always had duality between her love for her past and her family, and the darkness of her undead soul. @@Leunenkoenig
Blizzard: "We need some baddies to face the Forsaken for their heritage armor quest thingy. Mmmh...." Long time ago defeated and exterminated scarlet crusade: "Not us again?!? No god, please no, NO! NOOOOOO!!!"
Dragonflight has been the only good expansion to exist so to trudge through the trash expansions wouldnt be worth it at all, so not dealing with the 10 worst years is a wise choice
I think Sylvanas should of thrived as the leader of the horde. That was the perfect opportunity to just lean into the idea that’s she’s a hero. She was one when she was alive and she was one when she was dead. She’s always had people look up to her and she’s been a leader for her entire existence. The Forsaken were always a little bit of an outside group in the horde. So, I HATE that they made such an epic moment of her chanting for the horde in the BFA cinematic making us feel like they’ve finally integrated into the horde and that’s where her loyalty is as the leader but then for her to betray them in the same expansion for some lame story into shadowlands. She honestly deserves so much better as a character.
I've felt this exact sentiment for years, all the way leading up to the end of SL. Pisses me off that they ruined such a phenomenal character and story arch.
That's exactly what I felt at the start of Legion! I thought they would try to warm her up, to make her understand that she can trust others besides herself and the Forsaken, that she can be a hero again... But Blizzard said no. And that's a crime we should never forgive.
Shes a sanctimonious hypocrite at best. She did just as many terrible things as Arthas, and atleast he fell to the influence out of desperation to kill Malganis and make sure he never repeats Strathholme again. She did it cus she was scared of final death.
Being the leader of the Horde ruined Sylvanas for me. The whole appeal of the Forsaken was their blatantly nefarious activities that they were allowed to get away with because they were useful enough, on another continent to the rest of the Horde and had plausible deniability. Sylvanas working in the shadows pre-Legion was usually pretty fun. Thrusting her into the limelight made any plausible deniability collapse. The Forsaken are having a similar character assassination going on. Too many attempts to whitewash them into being dermotologically challenged humans instead of the vengence fueled cannibalistic skeletons that they were. The different races are slowly turning into different coloured versions of the same generic slop.
Garrosh, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Cairne. Gone. Garrosh and Sylvanas most of all got destroyed by crap ideas and writing. Garrosh could have been so much better. He had a fantastic ideology. Sylvanas went from "For the Horde" to "The Horde is Nothing". Like come on. She was my favorite. "Dark Lady watch over you."
Vol'Jin also had amazing potential as the most powerful shadow hunter and Bwonsamdi's favorite. Just to be killed by random legion guard. He May be the New Loa of Kings after shadowlands but still..
@@Dadoslawvoljin was shit, he went from being a voodoo priest in warcraft 3 to a shadow hunter, then thrall says help guide garrosh and he immediately peaces out and starts plotting to murder garrosh, voljin might be the worst written character from begining to end, wow needs new leadership that will tell the writing department to fuck off with their bad ideas if they want to keep the boat from sinking
People don't understand what she meant: In that moment she fought a war agains the tyranny of Death. In comparison, every struggle or war in that glimpfe of life is nothing, life itself is nothing, when eternal damnation waits afterwards. And she didn't just fight that tyranny for the horde but all mortals. That's by the way what she mean with her reply to Zovaal "I will never serve." But that's also something people sadly don't understand, so used to bad writing where everything is explined in a the most fancy way, without nuances.
@@miriamweller812the problem is as an MMO, especially one running this long, you cant really afford the luxury of assuming your players know every detail that could contextualize a character’s actions, especially in Sylvanas’s case since much of her involvement with the Jailer was a mystery until shadowlands, and then the mystery was kind of poorly explained from there
@@Marqrk To be fair most of Shadowlands and tbh. Battle for Azeroth felt like a afterthought they just had to try and weave into already established lore. But that would be quite self explanatory since Legion did wrap up a lot of story treads without necessarily provide many new ones to build the future upon. WoW as a whole is one of those things which already should had reached a conclusion and could had used a whole new setting/setup for a brand new game much earlier. Dragonflight have provided that by some degree, since it gave us a small time skip and has a for the most part new story arc. However i would had rather seen dragonflight become a full reset, aka a wow sequel with a far longer time skip, despite how it would piss some people off... I mean most of the NPC cast have either been killed or violated already, so why not just move the story into an era where that prophecy Velen had about Anduin is somewhat closer to be full filled aka. Anduin being a middle aged man coming back from whatever he have been doing. Then all those years, without any world ending threats, could had drove the horde and alliance into a real proper alliance(with a world who properly reflects that) or end up in similar relations as they used to have at the start of vanilla, either would be fine by me. The games real issues these days boils down to a lot of bloat and a really painful new player experience. The game is far from dead, but the franchise really need a breath of fresh air.
I get so annoyed with how Arthas is spoken about, literally the same thing happened to Anduin, and it wasn't Anduin's strength that helped him escape it. If Sylvanas can be forgiven after all her crimes you would think there would be a modicum of forgiveness available for someone who was possessed by the exact same being.
Arthas did nothing wrong. The Culling was done out of desperation and necessity, and the rest of the awful stuff he did was under the influence of the Lich King. If his friends and family didn’t abandon him at his lowest he probably wouldn’t have turned out the way he did
It is like they totally forget about them being possessed by the beings from the outside. And even though these 3 characters had in general the purest intents, lore writes seem to have completely ignored them in order to help the development of Uther's character In the Shadowlands, for example. I was on the edge, when going through Uther's part. Hatred and disgust were my company all along.
Arthas was never possessed. Blizzard has long maintained that every action he took as a death knight and later as the Lich King was entirely of his own free will.
@@Ultimaton100 Despite the literal first few lines of dialogue spoken in WC3's undead campaign by Tichondrius revealing that Arthas' soul had been entirely stolen by Frostmourne, and that was the reason he didn't care about having killed his family, betrayed his kingdom etc. Arthas' history is just stupid retcon after stupid retcon, when really his plot as told in WC3 was perfect and needed no further elaboration. He was an arrogant headstrong prince who cared about his people and the idea of justice. When put under pressure he made some awful decisions and his motivations quickly turned from justice to vengeance. Then after being tricked into wielding Frostmourne his soul was stolen and from that point onwards until the start of TFT he's 95% under the Lich King's control. Similar to Infested Kerrigan in SC1 (Arthas is almost a literal copy paste of her plot) - the Overmind left the 'greatness of her spirit' intact as it saw value in it, but she was entirely 100% under its control until it died. The problem is Blizzard want it both ways. Same with Sylvanas. Was she responsible for anything that she did, or can we forgive it all because the 'good half' of her soul was missing? Blizzard wanted to appease BOTH groups of players with its new SL retcons. The real issue is if you believe Sylvanas should be forgiven because split soul, Arthas should be also (Stratholme still up for debate obviously).
Sylvanas Windrunner...she and Jaina Proudmoore are my favorite characters. I felt sad after hearing Sylvanas's words, but relieved to listen to her. I wish she could return after paying her debt with Azeroth.
I hope she stays away. Such a dumb character. She goes and commit some unspeakable, unforgivable crimes. Her head should be on a spike in Stormwind for everyone to spit on.
This genocidal freak is lucky to be able to earn some form of redemption. Never forget the horrors she has wrought willingly upon others. I say, good riddance. Let her stay away for as long as possible. She used EVERYONE around her because she was too DUMB to see what she was becoming; a copy of Arthas. This self-righteous bitch became exactly what created her until she suddenly saw ''the Light'' after getting her ass kicked. Let her serve her ''penance'' for millions of years if needed. She may have regrets - now - but that doesn't excuse the hell she has dragged other people through; people who were never given a choice, unlike her.
nope. i dont want to see that character ever again. Everything with her was bad after she became warchief. She became an overpowered character with so little depth beside "Arthas was bad and killed my people and because of that i also have to kill people". Where was the logic behind shadowlands? The jailer (who also destroyed everything about the lichking lore) made the lichking, the lichking killed sylvanas and her people and then she joins the jailer?
I was mad as hell when they destroyed the whole Forsaken Lore and Sylvanas and repeated the MoP mistake of making the horde mustache twirling villains from a saturday morning cartoon. And what i said back then was: "Why bring back Calia in Legion only to kill her randomly and make HER!? the new leader of the forsaken?". I said it back then and i say it again: Calia has no claim on the Forsaken, no agency, no nothing for why she should be a member or in a leading position with the Forsaken. Of all the factions in WoW, the Forsaken and Darkspear Tribe are the ones Blizz shit the most on. And those were my 2 main Vanilla races...
But she isn't leader. You said it; she's only a member. That's what the Desolate Council is all about. She didn't WANT to be leader or in a leading position, but she wanted to help because she understood that the Forsaken were her people and she understood them. She KNEW that she wouldn't be accepted and she's been going through a whole story about not feeling quite Forsaken and seeking approval. If anything Lillian is more of a leader than Calia is - she believes Calia deserves as much of a voice as any other undead with free will. Like it or not, she brings a unique perspective and the Forsaken are anything if not resourceful and opportunistic.
Calia is the last royal heir of the Lordaeron, guess who became the forsaken the most? people of Lordaeron. So she surely has her place there, however...the Blizzard latest writing is shit without doubt.
@@verihimthered2418 WoW was never "Viking levels". Maybe vanilla had potential, with interesting story lines with Defias, Varian being kidnapped, Emerald Dream, Scarlet Crusade, etc, but TBC jumped the shark with "lol i'm randomly so mad and evul lolz!!" butchering important lore characters to get dungeon/raid bosses. WotlK was literally comic book villain appearing, killing the underling, and saying to the player "flee, next time I will not be so lenient, hurhur, am so evil and badass!!", repeat twice every zone, only to end in a "twist" that was completely stupid, because as it turned out, leaderless Scourge would be more of a threat to Azeroth than Arthas' Scourge ever was(not to mention that undead can learn, so why bother getting "the best of the best champions" and letting them burn through all your holds, when you can just train your current undead?) Cataclysm had the whole "Go'el" thing, which I'm not even gonna bother describing, everyone knows the "quality" of that writing. MoP had potential, but it ended up leading into WoD which was a total shitshow. WoD butchered the lore some more with timey-wimey "demons are beyond time, and every demon in a given timeline is the exact same one", and yet somehow Archimonde in Caverns of Time didn't ever learn to not fall for the Wisps trap. Legion turned the game into complete sci-fi fest with orbital cannons, mechs, and devs started playing favourites with characters again by jerking off to Nathanos, Sylvanas, and Illidan all the time. "Look how cool and badass and speshul they are!!" And I trust that no one considers BFA or Shadowlands to be "Viking levels".
the first 2 minutes honestly got me tearing up. I loved her character and lore so much since 09' and just thinking about what they did to her character in SL makes me sick. She deserved so soo much better and would've been an amazing horde leader 😭😭
Undead is just damn weird now. I hate to do the “vanilla was way better” line, but back then it captured them well, even in wrath. They had plots, schemes, their only feeling were morose capturing joy in doing something twisted, but beneficial. Touchy feely is ok I expected it out of races and that works. But this undead dialogue just sounds so disjointed.
That's fair, but it makes sense. WoW has been around for 20 years now, and the setting has changed. Back in Vanilla/Wrath everyone conflated the Forsaken with the Scourge, and the Forsaken reacted accordingly to a world that wanted them wiped out. Now, in Dragonflight, they've realized that the Forsaken are people just like them, and in a world where the Horde and Alliance aren't constantly fighting for plot reasons, they can finally start to live their lives. Personally, I find it refreshing. I love Sylvanas but it will be good to see a Forsaken story that isn't completely centered around her for once.
I've been a Sylvanas fan since I created my first Horde toon in TBC (all my friends played Alliance in vanilla but when belfs became a thing in TBC...byeeee!). I loved her story and Arthas'. Blizz totally crapped on both in SL - they made Sylvanas nuts instead of calculated. I really loved the direction of her story in Legion and thought they were setting her up to be a great Warchief but no. And Arths, well the last we see of him as this speck of light and no interaction with Jaina...ffs, wth Blizz.
I mean, Sylvanas is the equivalent of the meme "The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math." Yes, she was scheming, but her plans all being terrible and backfiring in the worst possible way is literally the story of her life (and undeath).
I loved Varian as you loved Sylvanas. (I always hated her guts, but that's beside the point). I started in BC, Alliance at heart, but I rolled my share of Horde in later years. I became fond of the Tauren, Troll, and even the Undead, not so much the Blood Elf, Orc, and Goblin although I rolled them too. I would always /moon Sylvanas and really did not want to take any of her oaths, but I did it anyway so my toons could complete their quests. Otherwise, I was a loyal little hordie while playing my horde toons. The line between the factions blurred and I was never much on pvp. I played the beta before Legion released. Most of the cutscenes were not available as I played through the Broken Shore intro. We had to limp along watching black screens and trying to take our cues from listening to the sounds of battle and scraps of dialog. The next thing I knew, my beta toon was onboard an airship hovering over Stormwind Harbor, wounded lying on the deck. Greymane handed me a letter for Anduin, saying he did not have the heart. I noticed flower petals on the marble floor as I walked the long hall into Stormwind Keep. Dread began and then cold washed over me as I saw the sarcophagus on its bier before the throne. It was only then I knew the king was dead. It hit me hard. I had no heart to go run and play, explore new zones, court new factions, collect 5 gizmos and 7 whatevers. I needed a funeral, I needed a coronation. I needed an explanation why Blizzard decided to kill my main character in the story, High King Varian Wyrnn. I never found that explanation and do not know to this day. I was willing to try and transfer my affections to his son Anduin if Blizzard would give me half a chance. Blizzard always likes to say that Azeroth is a character in itself. If so, then the NPC are Azeroth's voice. They tell her story. Kill them and all the world falls silent as silent as the walls of Stormwind became for me. Hope sprang up a little with BFA when they gave Anduin some story that I could love. By then I had 100 toons and two subs so I was willing to hold on. Shadowlands was more than I could stomach. I would not have thought it possible to despise Sylvanas even more. Anduin was tossed in jail during the intro and remained there until the finale. His long-awaited release suddenly became all about Arthas and moments later all about Sylvanas yet again. As you say, by rights it was Uther's or it was Jaina's place to speak. The Sylvanas grudge against Arthas for taking her free will became the exact same thing she did to Anduin. Their last scene together in the Maw was my last straw, Anduin seeking wisdom and advice from the genocical maniac that Sylvanas had become. Her redemption arc was too hollow for me to swallow. Blizzard forgot to instill her with a conscience when they restored her missing chunk of soul. And there is Anduin riddled with doubt for no sound reason and abandoning his throne. Kings do not take vacations, but this player can and did.
Yeah, and I'll be honest, replacing her with Calia feels incredibly cheap. Not to mention that Calia was turned into a special undead blessed by the Light for some reason, while still maintaining perfect relations with the Alliance. Quite frankly, she feels like an Alliance plant in Lordaeron.
"You were so much more than just arrows in my quiver" Fuck dude i didnt expect that, after years of having a self righteous attitude she finlly tells the truth...That shit broke me.
Really? But it's not even at all consistent with her words or actions - it's like she just magically changed her mind after the fact? Seems... cheap, to me.
@@UltimateGamerCC They flubbed her story and DID turn her into a boss and the big reveal was she was tricked by the Jailer's devious plan c'mon now, is that the cunning, morally grey Sylvanas they were telling us about? The one who had plans within plans and was serving the greater good? Nah, they caved to Alliance crying at best, such a bad end to one of the most iconic Horde leaders.
@@korsekil that's arguable, of course a lot of that stems from the fact that her reasoning and her story were relegated to a Book, rather than in game. if you had read the Sylvanas book, it goes into how Zo'vall basically convinced her that Free Will is an illusion and that what happened to her from losing her brother at a young age to her undeath was all fated to happen. that is why she joined with Zo'vall because he convinced her that the universe was flawed and he just wanted to fix it. she meant what she said at ICC to Bolvar, she was intending to free us all and the moment Zo'vall showed his true colors she tried to down him.
"But there is one thing for which I will always be proud: helping the forsaken find their place in a world that shunned them." POV: Blizzard-writers discovering that Rock Bottom has a basement.
Sylvanas was my favorite character in the franchise and could have had a fantastic redemption story. It is fitting that I quit WoW around the same time Blizzard violated and destroyed her.
If they had gone down that path they would have drove as many people to quit. They broke her character all the way back in Cata, from there she was just varying degrees of @#$%heel.
Sylvanas was a bitch since Vanilla, Warcraft 3 in fact. it's objectively her Character, and this cinematic is the first to be so close to actually betray her (but at least she kinda has reason, but well, DF writing...)
She was never redeemable. She was a Sarah Kerrigan girlboss from before WC3 even began, and was always treacherous. You're deluding yourself. Also the writers who are fanboys keep justifying and redeeming her anyways, you already have your redemption.
You'd they would've made her look more forsakeny at the very least. But we're supposed to believe she's this beacon of hope and optimism amongst all this debauchery.
You cannot build a house on a foundation of vengeance, betray it, and then hope for any kind of welcome. It is still far too soon for words of contrition.
I remember first meeting Voss in Cataclysm. I was telling my guildies, "This chick is way more of a leader than Sylvanas is. Lilian is going to replace her some day." Not quite what I expected but close enough. :D
Thanks for putting this together. I will admit that not having Sylvanas as a main point in our heritage armor was a real slapped the face for The Forsaken. Most of us made Undead characters because we had an affinity for Sylvanas and everything that happened with the undead. She created us so to have this stupid desolate Council as part of the Heritage armor Quest is stupid
It makes sense thou given her betrayal of the Forsaken and the horde. And just how the world still blames Arthas, despite losing his whole soul to Frostmourne, so do the Forsaken Sylvanas despite half her souls innocence. Its dumb in booth cases, but at least somewhat consistant. And the horde as a whole essencially invented democracy with a leading council. Its factions obviously learned the fatal flaw of giving one person absolute power
@Toastybees ironically at the End by the way spoilers. They Renegade on that script and she basically tells us that she loves us and always has LOL! Truthfully I just wish they did the night elf and forsaken Heritage armor at the point where we were burning down teldrassil and losing undercity. I think that would have been a fantastic time to have it in the game! It's a shame that you didn't use the battle for darkshore to release the heritage armors for those two
@@KibaWolf04 Hollow words from an abuser. "Even though I tried to kill you and destroy everything you care about I actually loved you all along." Whatever.
Sylvanas will always be the Forsaken's Queen. The one that guided them. Saved them. She, more than any other, did the most for them. I really hope she eventually come back. As the Ranger-General of the Dark Rangers.
@@forwenein2669 yeah you would think so but I read later today that forsaken actually accept most dk's in their society because dk's actually went through a similar thing as the undead/forsaken did. They were controlled by the lichking untill they weren't and were outcast after.
A victim blinded by his own hatred which he has been told by Uther to take control of as a paladin many times? No one forced him to burn down the ships, no one forced him to pick up Frostmourne and (accidently) kill his FRIEND by doing so. He simply didn't care and forgot about all he been told and teached over the years in that short period of time just to reach his selfish vengeance on Mal'Ganis. Arthas to Lich King is basically the same story as Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vadder even tho they play out a bit differently. Anger, frustration, fear all turning into pure hatred till u lost yourself completely.
@@Maltres did you even READ the effin story or are you just pulling these straight out of your arse? He didn't kill Muradin, Muradin survived. He had to pickup Frostmourne because he feared without it he wouldn't be able to defeat Malganis He had to burn down the ships in order to get revenge on Malganis since it was UTHER who went tattletaling on him for what he "NEEDED & HAD" to do in the culling of stratholme to prevent an even bigger outbreak of the undead. Yes he had flaws, he was headstrong but he was also very loyal - willing to do ANYTHING to save his people & his homeland, even if it meant becoming a literal sacrifice. He was prideful & also frightened of what might happen if he actually gave up. but UTHER was no better considering how EASILY his spirit was later manipulated by the jailer anyway - his so called JUSTICE was just VENGENCE & REVENGE under the guise of justice. He was no better than Arthas at that point. At no point did Uther try to reason with him & at no point did it ever cross his empty paladin skull that MAYBE something or someone was MANIPULATING Arthas & corrupting him to become so evil.
How big is the Scarlet Crusade again? Haven't they been trashed multiple times over, losing leadership, being manipulated by dreadlords, or outright broken into smaller factions? I don't see how the SC can be a threat here anymore, since they also were hostile to the Alliance, and the Alliance and Horde war machines just rampaged through the area, en masse, during BFA. Something tells me that the Forsaken storylines are a bit of an afterthought.
this is the Sylvana i wanted, the one that shows exactly how she felt and shows that she admits to her wrongness. and in all honesty? giving a proper apology to her people literally from Hell it self. hopefully when Blizzard brings her back she and Nathanos are together and their new story won't be a fucked up one. (I hate SL so much)
Meh I don't really care for nathanos honestly they watered him down too much into a ultimate simp to be worth anything. If they instead played on his history as a human ranger acknowledged by elves with some subtle real romance between him and sylvanas, rather then a complete dog to her bidding. He'd have some worth cause he was way too cocky for someone who basically unquestioningly did whatever sylvanas wanted no explanation given to him. Basically a puppet on a string only way to bring him back would be to play mind control card and that his servitude wasn't of his own free will and have that be some character development for the two recognizing yes it was by forceful means but it stems from something they felt for each other but they need to slowly work it out.
@Notaforumguy007 I definitely found it off that Nathanos was acting a simp and loyal servant... Part of me to this day theorised he may not have been fully there, and though sylvannas returned his conscious, it may have only been a small fraction of him that was returned and the rest was taken to the Maw by the Jailer, I still hate SL lore myself. But it is clear Sylvannas treasured Nathanos a ton deep within her corrupted version, and she never would realise the Jailer hid such of Nathanos's state such as him being killed by Tyrande's hands, and perhaps even more. Its safe to say I'm glad we'll never step foot with the SL lore again, but I'm one to certainly say this theory may not be impossible after all she is not only enduring and accepting punishment, but the goal to find Nathanos and either return to Forsaken even with her nasty reputation or rest peacefully with his soul and the family that fell by Arthas's attack on Quel'thalas.
WOW is a RPG and I chose my role as an undead Sylvanas loyalist. After she slew Saurfang, she summoned me to Windrunner Spire for debriefing before heading to Northrend. My RP essentially ended at that point. There’s nothing else to do in the story for the loyal followers of the dark lady. I never went to Shadowland because I knew I couldn’t be of any help to her cause. During the pre-patch of Shadowlands, one of the undead female priests had the audacity of asking me to take down the dark lady’s champion Nathanos. I couldn’t kill that priest as myself obviously, so I got myself infected by the scourge and turned myself into a zombie so I could slaughter that priest where she stood.
That is blizzard for your, lore-wise after sylvanus yelled "the horde is nothing." every horde adventurer, no matter what they did collectively went "ok I hate you now/more.". However, what Blizzard doesn't understand is that when you start something like divergent story paths... you need to follow up on them. Unless you like part of your fanbase going apeshit. Throwing in just one line of text and expecting everything to be hunky dorry is woefully wrong. Now I get it, the loyalist part was just thrown in there due to backlash of a garrosh situation. But... follow up on this stuff, even a small quest in which you are forced to be on the good guy's side is preferable to the whole "shut up and eat our slop" method.
Shame that modern wow writers understand none of the nuance which made Arthas such an interesting character, simply dumbed down to just another bad guy.
It’s like they forgot the entire reason his story held weight was because of how much of an asset he would’ve been to the alliance, it wasn’t just that he was powerful, he was powerful in a way that gave hope to the people. The old world died with Arthas, blizzard forgot what made him so important.
stop it Arthas was a insane mass murderer even before he became the Lich King going against people that loved him like his mentor Uther, janna and insisted on killing a town full of his people and subjects that's the mentality and character the writers gave him from the beginning..... don't blame the new writers they didn't decide later to give this maniac the personality of a transatlantic slave trader...lol
@@leesun1104 Do you not remember the “as much as it pains you, they are not the ones you remember.” quote? It’s not like he walked into a healthy city and poisoned their grain…
@@maxwellhesher1790 so what" obviously there were other ways to dea with that situation wise Uther, and janna, would not have objected to Arthas, killing those people to stop the spread of this poison if there was no other way or choice's that could have been made in an effort to resolve the situation but Arthas didn't even want to wait and check to see if any of the people was ok and not poisoned this dude... just assumed that everybody was infected with poison and killed everybody, some times fantasy and art imitate life to show or prove a point...its a proven fact that some people are just natural born killers, and muderers some people (minds) or (Spirits) from birth are evil and they have a natural Desire to do and commit heinous! acts of violence from which they receive pleassure instead of remorse they can't seem to understand that murder and other acts of violence is only a civilized act to commit when and if its justifyed not simply because you have the power to kill and harm other people do you do so unless your like the natural born killers born to be a evil Devil that enjoy the suffering of the innocent other wise most people have at lease a small amount of decency in them and think to do no harm first: especially to innocent people once again without first checking for a none-violent solution to the problem this manniact Arthas killed everybody without first justifying the need to commit such vile acts so speedily against other human beings never entered his mind this was a first course of action for Arthas, he didn't seek-out any none- lethal ways to deal with this problem first bro! if you can't understand that as a decent not good human being but just being a decent human being you feel it realize and understand in your heart and mind that its not right to kill or murder people un-justly sir you're no better or different then a wild animal if you do so a insane murdering psychopath that should never be allowed into a civilized society of rationally thinking people, its like putting a wolfe in with sheep un-fortunately this is the state of the real world in 2024......and maybe this is the point the writers were trying to convey to there audience to think first before acting or reacting to any real life situation because you could harm or hurt innocent people
Everything Warcraft in World of Warcraft is gone. The only characters that really mattered tbh. The once that's left are just a former empty cringy shell of themselves. But atleast we have Body 1 and Body 2...
@@flameknightdragon I didn't say she was good. She WAS however, a good leader, one who did care for her people. Her throwing away the Forsaken was the moment the writers proved they didn't care about the characters. Unless you actually think that "Oh yeah, she was actually working for this omni powerful death God thing called the jailer the whole time, and he was the real reason for everything bad ever." Was an actual well done plot point and not a horribly contrived mess?
Pfft, this was such a load of apologist crap. Good thing "she got back her split soul", what a load. The Sylvanas you got in BFA and SL was no different than in Vanilla. It's just what happens when a moralless monster gains power and has no check for her goals.
@@spaceowl9246 probably autocorrect, Sylvanus is a name in the real world, with the name Silas for short. Sylvanas is the name of the character in WoW. It'd be like if they named a guy Jhon and you tried to spell it and it kept autocorrecting to John.
As a vanilla player, I hope they bring her back for the finale in the trilogy saga expansion they are making. The Return of the Queen could be quite the moment, if done right.
well according to ShadowLands her souls was not whole, so when she became complete (thanks to nipple daddy Jailer) she was force to see her wrongness and that made her realise the actual truth. Her people where not just Arrows in her quiver they where much more, her Arrows are much much more.
@@kylerefenes9088most people shouldn’t need to read extra material just to understand a character in the main product. That just means the main product was poorly directed.
Maybe they will do it they began to explore different races Dragons like Taurens, Trolls maybe they will one day do the same with Forsaken or just Undead?
You don't say? Even Trag could easily be considered a Forsaken because he not only shared his old friend's fate but also resisted the Lich King at the end. Speaking of... It's because the Lich King lost power, the Scourge would have lost contact with him worldwide, so Vanilla would have been a perfect opportunity for the Forsaken to gather freed undead wherever there was Scourge activity, including Kalimdor. As for the method of raising the dead, Sylvanas previously had necromancers among her ranks. This may totally sound like WarCraft III, but perhaps she should have kept some and some Crypt Fiends to help protect fellow Forsaken.
When they made Sylvanas a villain and made Horde and Alliance allies in the story I expected Blizzard to combine the latter in a single faction as well as make Forsaken a new one and give Forsaken players an option to play as every other race. It for sure would resolve trait disparity. Also I thought that maybe Sylvanas's loyalists would turn into undead in the end. In short I thought they would make the game about Horde & Alliance vs Forsaken instead of Horde vs Alliance.
Did the Blood Elves truly reject the dark rangers or is it just added stuff? It may be bias due to my main characters being belves, but as far as I know, they've always been the closest race to the forsaken. All of Azeroth may have some prejudice, but these two have been supporting each other for quite long. Sylvanas' voice actress does know how to deliver those feels. We can almost forget the bad writing that her character went through for a minute. But we remember again, as soon as Arthas' name gets brought to the conversation again. At least, the forsaken leaders get screentime, but Calia still acts too alliance-like. And, as someone who enjoyed BFA, it's sad to see Derek as only an accessory for her. He promised so much more back then... Oh, and I thought about the Windrunner dead brother, but then remembered those datamined Nathanos lines. They should happen at some point. And I'm not sure how I'd feel about seeing him again. Hopefully he does more than self-inserty stuff. He's also had memorable moments.
The Dark Rangers are Night Elves, not Blood Elves. It was the Night Elves who rejected their fallen brethren when Sylvanas burned the world tree and raised a bunch of them into her army. At least that's how I saw it all explained.
@@Elithraedark rangers have always been high elves, they’re literally rangers that served and died with sylvanas defending quel’thalas. they did raise some night elves to be dark rangers in bfa but the OGs are high elves.
lmao I see the writers do excellent job castrating Horde and removing everything that made them badass in the first place, and I say this as an Alliance player
1:44 great reference to Nathanos, I thought Blizzard had completely forgotten about him. Wish we could see their reunion. Sadly this whole storyline seems like the end for Sylvanas and I doubt Blizzard has any plans left for her. She will most likely make a comeback in like 10 years where people can get all nostalgic again.
I love how they turned Voss from this NPC side character on a forgettable quest into a major recurring character that now is an important part of the current story going forwards. I hope a few other 'forgettables' get this treatment at some point. Warcraft, more than anything else, needs new leaders. All the others are either dead, or so tied up in endless journeys of self-discovery and repentance that they're just no longer usable for the plot. Characters we've met throughout our journeys on Azeroth and beyond. Ones who, because of our heroic actions, got to survive and thrive in a world consumed by warcraft. Ones we can hopefully begin to explore in a deeper way. New leaders to ease Warcraft into a new installment with Warcraft 4, and maybe eventually, World of Warcraft 2 or something similar.
I personally have always gotten a chuckle that her name is almost identical to "Liliana Voss" the incredibly powerful necromancer planeswalker of Magic the Gathering.
Scarlet Crusade: We need to kill these forsaken undead because they are murdering monsters. Forsaken: The Scarlet Crusade is trying to kill us, I know, lets murder them all.
Can't emphasize enough how disgusted I am with the handling of Sylvanas. Since the day I first started playing in BC, I was obsessed with Sylvanas and her tragic back story then triumphant rise to Banshee Queen and leader of the forsaken. Only reason I rep grinded so hard for Undead. I get a very distinct feeling that game developers were never going to let us have our horde dark lady stay in any seat of power, yet look how they wrote Jaina's whole story for Alliance. She gets to almost massacre Orgrimmar and purge Darlaran of Horde when she was in charge and no one bats an eye and still considers her as sanctimonious as Anduin🙄 It's enough to make me 🤮
@@greenicetea3546No, they’re absolutely right. Jaina turned from an advocate of peace to a genocidal maniac and is still lauded as a tragic hero by much of the player base. It’s pathetic.
@@Ultimaton100 Because she IS a tragic hero. Garrosh literally nuke her city and you expected her to react nicely ? And you also forget that there actually were blood elves who plotted against Dalaran. Her decision to purge Dalaran of blood elves wasn't solely based of genocidal desires. Even though she hated the horde as much as ever at that moment.
@@SupraSwordTheramore was a legitimate military target. It was used as the staging ground for the Alliance’s invasion of central Kalimdor, and it was soldiers wearing the Theramore tabard who massacred multiple villages. This was all in direct violation of the nonaggression pact Jaina signed with the Horde, mind you. Furthermore, none of the Sunreavers plotted against Dalaran. A lone deserter who had already cut ties with the group utilized some of their spells to infiltrate Darnassus for the Horde. Jaina then decided based on that alone that all Sunreavers were somehow involved and decided to start killing them and sending her underlings to kill them when their leader refused to let her imprison all of them on false pretenses. Jaina Proudmoore is a complex character with layers, no doubt, but she’s not a hero. She turned her back on everything she once stood for even before the bombing of Theramore. She’s a case study as to how far a supposedly good person can fall when they refuse to be held accountable for or correct their mistakes.
They should have been disbanded as a group after WoD. Their members should have better joined the argent dawn and crusaders or even the Alliance since they have reclaimed more of Lordaeron then they ever did.
I highly recommend reading or listening to the Sylvannas book. I wasn't too sure about it in the beginning but now I want to go back to it as it filled in quite a few holes in my knowledge of her.
To me it was: "Father is it finally over? I only see darkness before me". As it if was a nightmare a feverish dream. That is where Arthas died. In my eyes he panicked and got desperate at Stratholme. He basically snapped.
With every day, I am starting to believe more and more that there needs to be something that forces WoW only players to at LEAST play and beat Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne before they can comment on lore matters ever again. Actually, we need to make the writers also go through the games again, since they are if anything even more clueless.
Out of the 2 new Heritage armor quest lines. This one for the Forsaken was the better one. The Night Elf was not terrible but having to do half of it in stealth with Miaev complaining every time you either got a little bit ahead of her or fought a demon was so very tiresome, and almost made me hate the quest.
imo, I hope having three expansions like this will help avoid the writing issues that had befallen Sylvanas, disregarding the Nathanos addition(maybe self insert whatever; also do you know in lore he was described as a master strategist and tactical genius, lol) and strategic bad choices. having three expac and pacing the story around that could give us better usage of chekhov's gun theory and generally improve it all.
There is no shame to Arthas Menethil's lagacy. He was a great man who happened to fall down a dark path. Don't understand how people fault him so. What he became doesn't erase everything he once was and I'm tired of the narrative that keeps reinforcing this idea that Arthas was a monster and always will be.
Agreed. That's what makes Arthas such a great, tragic character. He was flawed yea - prone to emotions, hot-headed choices, and not thinking things through when he was emotional - but he was also someone who cared deeply about his people, and those around him, and looked after the citizens of his Kingdom and had great respect for his peers and mentors. Its what makes his story so tragic because he had good intentions to use Frostmourne to save Lordearon, and was willing to damn himself to do it; but as always the path to hell is paved with good intentions and even he couldn't see that it would corrupt him wholly in the end. I honestly wish he got a better send-off in Shadowlands than what we got.
.....*Bruh.* I'm so tired of hearing that lol. He culled Stratholme WELL before Frostmourne. He was WARNED about Frostmourne and chose it willingly. Says to Muradin "NOTHING will stand in the way of my revenge. Not even you, old friend." Like, dude. Why does everyone keep lionizing this bastard? "What he once was?" HE was an egomaniac that Uther was trying to keep in line FROM THE FIRST MOMENT YOU DEAL WITH HIM in WC3. Do people just, not bother to learn their lore? It's so freaking insane to me how many people are willign to write Sylvanas off as The Worst Thing Ever, when she was LITERALLY condemned to her fate by Arthas (doesn't excuse her actions, don't get me wrong) --- when ARTHAS CHOSE FROSTMOURNE KNOWINGLY. KNOWING IT WAS CURSED.
This is just showing the joke that WoW is, just before she killed Saurfang and said "you all are nothing". And now to make it that she did it all for the Forsaken? It just shows that they're running out of impacting content in retail.
I agree with the Scarlet Crusade. Being an undead doesn't mean you are evil. Being a Forsaken means you are worse than the Scourge, because you don't need the influence of a Death God to try to exterminate humans
I remember her as a throw away character when creating a new FS character. Back then when the line finished Lilian was never mentioned. That was to me a wasted opportunity it could have added another layer. In TBC days, which is when I started playing MMOPG I got the back story. I may have a slight colouring as I did play the stand alone warcraft games first. I remember fighting the SC back in the dark and distant past and wondering why they weren't wiped out, Also there is a reason Lady S worked so hard to get the Horde to accept Belves, as they are descendents of her people who she originally thought were wiped out. IT is why Belves and Foresaken started as friendly towards each other compared to the rest of the horde factions. The scene starting at 9:43 those were how Lady S was to ensure the survival of her people, which is something she worked to ensure considering she felt she had failed the high eves. Back in the day they were considered bad amongst the general player base, and the writers though the new ones, but in this scene they are now good things.
So, the Forsaken have retaken their capital while Teldrassil is still and will remain ashes. In the grand scheme of things it would have been fair if Undercity would have been deemed unrecoverable.
From the very beginning i NEVER understood the Forsaken ... they KNOW what they are, and plots always show them as traitors and vile people (yeah, toying with Plague and Apothecary is not what i call "cool" for a background) and over this, after the Fall of Arthas they still being monsters ... Calia must a kind and good looking, they should all, like Sylvanas, search for peace in the Maw. This faction have nothing to do anymore on Azeroth, they proved their evilness and they can't be trusted,
![Sylvanas Windrunner's Story: All Cinematics in ORDER [WoW Dragonflight]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yjUqJ_csdPs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Sylvanas Windrunner's Story: All Cinematics in ORDER [WoW Dragonflight]](/img/tr.png)
First Chapter: th-cam.com/video/ppbIBFBCCkU/w-d-xo.html (Vyranoth Joins Alexstrasza)
Sylvanas Final Words: th-cam.com/video/2-54MdSoIUI/w-d-xo.html
Maiev Kills Dreadlords: th-cam.com/video/-Gm9k2vERPE/w-d-xo.html
All Dragonflight Cinematics: th-cam.com/video/zRTQBKe_v5k/w-d-xo.html
*Arthas Takes Frostmourne: th-cam.com/video/VfsHW8oWXLs/w-d-xo.html
*All Shadowlands Cinematics: th-cam.com/video/4MKtq_9n7RI/w-d-xo.html
*All Battle For Azeroth Cinematics: th-cam.com/video/wcVYsE1yzBI/w-d-xo.html
A part of my childhood has died. Wow has now passed in a new era. No Arthas, no Sylvanas... no Cairne. I feel old
Me too my friend, me too.
It is the cycle of life.
There is still chicken boy here and there haha
Thrall still has a glimmer of hope
@@abraxis7292what hope ? We’re still getting old , nothing will make WoW the same anymore , most of us have already left this game
The Scarlet Crusade is the Team Rocket of Azeroth.
💀🤣
Accurate
Still they just refuse to die out.
150% yes. Same colors, even.
Team Rocket at least got many focus episodes and episodes about how much their mons love them.
Blizzard would rather fall under the weight of endless stolen breast milk bottles than portray the Scarlet Crusade as anything but evil chuds.
I don't understand how the Scarlet Crusade is this everlooming threat, a boogeyman in the night, singlehandedly destroying all the Scourge left in Northrend, and now taking over Tirisfal, and then they still achieve nothing and get destroyed.
also breaks apart into infighting or gets mind controlled and works undead several times
And breaks apart into other factions except without infighting this time
Somehow (in reality it's the dark elves situation, the frozen wastes living dark elves who constantly kill each other can still muster armies capable of threatening continental empires on a whenever-the-writers-want-them-to basis)
Probably because most of the strongest champions and armies left to fight for azeroth, leaving their original posts either empty or bare boned. So it's mostly settlers and local town militias to protect.
And I don't understand how anybody still has expectations of wow lore.
answer is simple: They abused the Ret rework the other patch by having most of their priest class swap. Paladins OP.
The KKK had their back broken in the 1870s by Grant, and yet those SOBs keep coming back.
People still quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion like it wasn’t the fakest crap ever written by hate and use it as some seed for their variety of nutjob conspiracy theory.
Folks to this day after decades of trickle-down economics still think they weren’t made worse off for it their entire lives and still want to keep trying to make it work, since they don’t see themselves as the victims; only “the poor.”
Hate, fear, and garden variety stupidity are evergreen and when set up right powerful motivators. If you can’t inspire them with good ideas and follow them through, inspire them with hate and they stop caring about your ability to deliver
Man that questline with Sylvanas at the end really shows what a stark 180 they had her do in BFA and SL
poor sylvanas, one of the biggest victims of poor writing...
“Dark lady watch over you”
@@stargirl5194 Tbf dragonflight actually has a decent writing but yeah after legion it went downhill a lot
@@stargirl5194pls know you are incredibly annoying
@@stargirl5194 Wow is far from being dead actually
@@stargirl5194 It died with WoD and not with Legion. Legion was the last spastics while dying. Still doesn't make it a good expansion.
The Warcraft 3 Cinematic still holds its ground next to the Retail ones... insane
It should’ve been updated when we got Reforged.
That cinematic was re-rendered/reshot/whatever with Wc3 Reforged, the old one from 20 years is way lower resolution than the new one shown ingame/reforged
@@cameronmcewen9666 You already have upscaled versions of them on various yt channels. They are superior to whatever trash we have these days.
She was a spectacular character and they screwed up her so bad. Such wasted potential towards the end.
She was always bad after she was raised. Her only redeeming quality is that she got the other half of her soul back.
@@odst123451 She was bad but she was a good character, BfA and SL completely destroyed her character.
Honestly I hope she never comes back. This would be a good opportunity to close Sylvanas' door forever. Do you know how many souls were forced into the Maw? Countless, we're not talking millions here, billions; it's gonna take a lot of time for just one person to get all those souls back. Maybe we could get an epilogue after WoW's story has ended where hundreds of years later, she finally completes her task, and then leave it off open-ended.
Sylvanas was a great character who became the unfortunate victim of bad writing. The only characters they've screwed up more/similarly are Kael'thas and Med'an, thankfully Med'an isn't canon but Kael'thas' story in SL was handled... decently, better than Sylvanas' was, anyway. This heritage armor story shows they're handling Sylvanas better now, but it just doesn't feel genuine, especially after her betrayal scenes back in BfA.
Why u talking so?
@@jsc1jake512like how they did off with Arthas. Faded away. She could maybe be mentioned but leave her story closed
The Sylvanas message made me really sad. A lot of us are mourning both the in-game implications of her AND the bad developer decisions. That hit me really hard.
same. they destroyed best character in the worst way. i dont play wow anymore new stories are not like wow.
Lets hope it will be the example for a future, that even the greatest characters can turn into the worst one by the bad developer decisions.
I'm still mourning Garrosh
@@godwishyoutube Sylvanas always remained true to her character since Warrcaft, an achievement for a character used by almost all WoW expansions, especially the first messy ones. In fact, this dialog right her is by far the closest to a betrayal of her mindset with Legion, but this last was explained as she was lying as always of course, and now well, she as a reason to change (but if she would lost her ability to die in peace freely again, she would still be ready to do the worse again)
@@godwishyoutube Yes. I was following shadowlands hoping Sylvanas was actually plotting against the Jailor.... that arrow scene felt so weak... I wanted her to be badass.....
Calia Menethil: The last heir to a legacy that ended in shame.
True, that "Arthas soul flickers" was a shame indeed...
I sort of want to shout "Do you guys not realise he was super possessed??" Like everyone else gets to say "Oh, sorry hey. I was bad, but regret it now." But Arthas loses his whole soul and is a disgrace. It frustrates me forever because it's not so much as unjust as it is double standard.
@@CappyK Yeah, I always felt the same.
@@CappyK He wasn't posessed. He aws manipulated, but it was still his doing. He wasn't under control of Zovaal, what was one of the main problems Zovaal had, that the guy didn't do at all what he wanted.
And the ending was absolutely fitting.
If you would whitewash Arthas' atrocities for pretty much nothing, that would ruin Arthas' story completely.
He got a death that was fitting and at least sad, but his victims let go, leaving tranquility.
You could say that Uther doomed him in the afterlife - but this was again Arthas' own doing, who had corrupted his teacher, what led to this.
@@CappyK i remember when his soul completely vanished, he wont ever rejoin the cycle, nor the small kid which helped us back in northrend
@@CappyKHe was a cruel and arrogant person even before facing the scourge. Just listen to him any time he's faces the orcs.
Ner'zul picked him for a reason.
I had sort of hoped the Forsaken would get a new capital in Stratholme. That would have been cool
"So much more than arrows in my quiver" that part hit hard because that is such a common quote from her, that her soldiers were just arrows to be used and discarded.
which was kinda ironic considering arrows are actually pretty valuable to archers, since they have a finite amount in their quiver and often take a lot of skill to craft well.
Which was 100% what she was as acharacter. All her actions, from Warcraft 3 to even the trashfire that was BFA, she was a PoS who cared for herself first and second. Shadowlands did her a huge disservice by making her something she was never meant to be: a misunderstood good guy.
Idk, there's certainly more duality to her than that. I think she gave off a gruff attitude on purpose, much like she will give the player when they meet. She'll even throw the locket to the ground and claim it has no significance to her, but when you walk away she picks it up and recites the lament of the highborne. Sylvanas was never just a moustache twirling villian, she had depth and background, BFA tried to make her a sunday night cartoon villian, which is cheap and uninteresting.@@Leunenkoenig
@@LightsFuzzy Her nostalgia for her life when she was alive has nothing to do with any duality. The locket does not refute her caring about anyone else but herself - in fact, if you want to bring her family into this, there's the really cool story where she tries to murder her sister Vereesa so she can then raise her as an undead. You know, so they could truly be one family again.
Even when Warcraft was losing its way and the story became more and more non-sensical, (and simp-y,) they failed to think up even a single noteworthy story for Sylvanas that didn't make her a self-centered megalomaniac. WHICH IS FINE. The Forsaken are a trashy people of sorrow, hate and self-loathing. Their queen and leader being a back-stabbing, short-sighted, and sadistic psychopath makes sense and was a benefit to the story for the longest time. Sylvanas was a good character because she was an *actual* character. The issue with her was one of the writers, where almost none of her ret4rded actions had any true consequences for her.
Except she doesn't murder Vereesa, even though she had the opportunity to. She never signals them to attack, and even her dark rangers are surprised and question her on this. She originally only wanted to kill Vereesa to raise her as an undead to live with her in Undercity because she feared the undead would never accept her otherwise - if thats not a show of humanity then I dont know what is. So if you're gonna cite that story, please make sure to cite all of it and not just the part that suits your agenda. She has always had duality between her love for her past and her family, and the darkness of her undead soul. @@Leunenkoenig
Blizzard: "We need some baddies to face the Forsaken for their heritage armor quest thingy. Mmmh...."
Long time ago defeated and exterminated scarlet crusade: "Not us again?!? No god, please no, NO! NOOOOOO!!!"
Its free real estate.
All they deserve
Haven't played wow for 10 years. This plot reinforces that I made the right decision.
Not agree, legion was greatest addon, and actually - last true blizzard addon.
Yet you're still here, watching every video about it. Like a spurned ex boyfriend 😅
You’re missing out on Dragonflight.
Imagine playing wow for the plot 😂😂😂😂
Dragonflight has been the only good expansion to exist so to trudge through the trash expansions wouldnt be worth it at all, so not dealing with the 10 worst years is a wise choice
I'm not a Forsaken, but her final shorel'aran hit hard as a Sin'dorei!
She remembers, dearly. Every forsaken misses their past. But they are what they are now :O
I think Sylvanas should of thrived as the leader of the horde. That was the perfect opportunity to just lean into the idea that’s she’s a hero. She was one when she was alive and she was one when she was dead. She’s always had people look up to her and she’s been a leader for her entire existence. The Forsaken were always a little bit of an outside group in the horde. So, I HATE that they made such an epic moment of her chanting for the horde in the BFA cinematic making us feel like they’ve finally integrated into the horde and that’s where her loyalty is as the leader but then for her to betray them in the same expansion for some lame story into shadowlands. She honestly deserves so much better as a character.
I've felt this exact sentiment for years, all the way leading up to the end of SL. Pisses me off that they ruined such a phenomenal character and story arch.
That's exactly what I felt at the start of Legion! I thought they would try to warm her up, to make her understand that she can trust others besides herself and the Forsaken, that she can be a hero again... But Blizzard said no. And that's a crime we should never forgive.
Shes a sanctimonious hypocrite at best. She did just as many terrible things as Arthas, and atleast he fell to the influence out of desperation to kill Malganis and make sure he never repeats Strathholme again. She did it cus she was scared of final death.
Being the leader of the Horde ruined Sylvanas for me. The whole appeal of the Forsaken was their blatantly nefarious activities that they were allowed to get away with because they were useful enough, on another continent to the rest of the Horde and had plausible deniability. Sylvanas working in the shadows pre-Legion was usually pretty fun.
Thrusting her into the limelight made any plausible deniability collapse.
The Forsaken are having a similar character assassination going on. Too many attempts to whitewash them into being dermotologically challenged humans instead of the vengence fueled cannibalistic skeletons that they were. The different races are slowly turning into different coloured versions of the same generic slop.
California storytelling.
Garrosh, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Cairne. Gone. Garrosh and Sylvanas most of all got destroyed by crap ideas and writing. Garrosh could have been so much better. He had a fantastic ideology. Sylvanas went from "For the Horde" to "The Horde is Nothing". Like come on. She was my favorite. "Dark Lady watch over you."
Vol'Jin also had amazing potential as the most powerful shadow hunter and Bwonsamdi's favorite. Just to be killed by random legion guard. He May be the New Loa of Kings after shadowlands but still..
@@Dadoslawvoljin was shit, he went from being a voodoo priest in warcraft 3 to a shadow hunter, then thrall says help guide garrosh and he immediately peaces out and starts plotting to murder garrosh, voljin might be the worst written character from begining to end, wow needs new leadership that will tell the writing department to fuck off with their bad ideas if they want to keep the boat from sinking
People don't understand what she meant:
In that moment she fought a war agains the tyranny of Death. In comparison, every struggle or war in that glimpfe of life is nothing, life itself is nothing, when eternal damnation waits afterwards.
And she didn't just fight that tyranny for the horde but all mortals. That's by the way what she mean with her reply to Zovaal "I will never serve." But that's also something people sadly don't understand, so used to bad writing where everything is explined in a the most fancy way, without nuances.
@@miriamweller812the problem is as an MMO, especially one running this long, you cant really afford the luxury of assuming your players know every detail that could contextualize a character’s actions, especially in Sylvanas’s case since much of her involvement with the Jailer was a mystery until shadowlands, and then the mystery was kind of poorly explained from there
@@Marqrk To be fair most of Shadowlands and tbh. Battle for Azeroth felt like a afterthought they just had to try and weave into already established lore. But that would be quite self explanatory since Legion did wrap up a lot of story treads without necessarily provide many new ones to build the future upon. WoW as a whole is one of those things which already should had reached a conclusion and could had used a whole new setting/setup for a brand new game much earlier. Dragonflight have provided that by some degree, since it gave us a small time skip and has a for the most part new story arc. However i would had rather seen dragonflight become a full reset, aka a wow sequel with a far longer time skip, despite how it would piss some people off...
I mean most of the NPC cast have either been killed or violated already, so why not just move the story into an era where that prophecy Velen had about Anduin is somewhat closer to be full filled aka. Anduin being a middle aged man coming back from whatever he have been doing. Then all those years, without any world ending threats, could had drove the horde and alliance into a real proper alliance(with a world who properly reflects that) or end up in similar relations as they used to have at the start of vanilla, either would be fine by me. The games real issues these days boils down to a lot of bloat and a really painful new player experience. The game is far from dead, but the franchise really need a breath of fresh air.
I get so annoyed with how Arthas is spoken about, literally the same thing happened to Anduin, and it wasn't Anduin's strength that helped him escape it.
If Sylvanas can be forgiven after all her crimes you would think there would be a modicum of forgiveness available for someone who was possessed by the exact same being.
Arthas did nothing wrong. The Culling was done out of desperation and necessity, and the rest of the awful stuff he did was under the influence of the Lich King. If his friends and family didn’t abandon him at his lowest he probably wouldn’t have turned out the way he did
It is like they totally forget about them being possessed by the beings from the outside. And even though these 3 characters had in general the purest intents, lore writes seem to have completely ignored them in order to help the development of Uther's character In the Shadowlands, for example. I was on the edge, when going through Uther's part. Hatred and disgust were my company all along.
Arthas is a straight white male, he can't be forgiven.
Arthas was never possessed. Blizzard has long maintained that every action he took as a death knight and later as the Lich King was entirely of his own free will.
@@Ultimaton100 Despite the literal first few lines of dialogue spoken in WC3's undead campaign by Tichondrius revealing that Arthas' soul had been entirely stolen by Frostmourne, and that was the reason he didn't care about having killed his family, betrayed his kingdom etc. Arthas' history is just stupid retcon after stupid retcon, when really his plot as told in WC3 was perfect and needed no further elaboration.
He was an arrogant headstrong prince who cared about his people and the idea of justice. When put under pressure he made some awful decisions and his motivations quickly turned from justice to vengeance. Then after being tricked into wielding Frostmourne his soul was stolen and from that point onwards until the start of TFT he's 95% under the Lich King's control. Similar to Infested Kerrigan in SC1 (Arthas is almost a literal copy paste of her plot) - the Overmind left the 'greatness of her spirit' intact as it saw value in it, but she was entirely 100% under its control until it died.
The problem is Blizzard want it both ways. Same with Sylvanas. Was she responsible for anything that she did, or can we forgive it all because the 'good half' of her soul was missing? Blizzard wanted to appease BOTH groups of players with its new SL retcons. The real issue is if you believe Sylvanas should be forgiven because split soul, Arthas should be also (Stratholme still up for debate obviously).
Sylvanas Windrunner...she and Jaina Proudmoore are my favorite characters. I felt sad after hearing Sylvanas's words, but relieved to listen to her. I wish she could return after paying her debt with Azeroth.
As do I. I miss her.
I hope she stays away. Such a dumb character. She goes and commit some unspeakable, unforgivable crimes. Her head should be on a spike in Stormwind for everyone to spit on.
This genocidal freak is lucky to be able to earn some form of redemption. Never forget the horrors she has wrought willingly upon others. I say, good riddance. Let her stay away for as long as possible. She used EVERYONE around her because she was too DUMB to see what she was becoming; a copy of Arthas. This self-righteous bitch became exactly what created her until she suddenly saw ''the Light'' after getting her ass kicked. Let her serve her ''penance'' for millions of years if needed. She may have regrets - now - but that doesn't excuse the hell she has dragged other people through; people who were never given a choice, unlike her.
nope. i dont want to see that character ever again. Everything with her was bad after she became warchief. She became an overpowered character with so little depth beside "Arthas was bad and killed my people and because of that i also have to kill people". Where was the logic behind shadowlands? The jailer (who also destroyed everything about the lichking lore) made the lichking, the lichking killed sylvanas and her people and then she joins the jailer?
@@DioBrando-qi9soI absolutely agree with every word of yours.
I was mad as hell when they destroyed the whole Forsaken Lore and Sylvanas and repeated the MoP mistake of making the horde mustache twirling villains from a saturday morning cartoon. And what i said back then was: "Why bring back Calia in Legion only to kill her randomly and make HER!? the new leader of the forsaken?". I said it back then and i say it again: Calia has no claim on the Forsaken, no agency, no nothing for why she should be a member or in a leading position with the Forsaken. Of all the factions in WoW, the Forsaken and Darkspear Tribe are the ones Blizz shit the most on. And those were my 2 main Vanilla races...
But she isn't leader. You said it; she's only a member. That's what the Desolate Council is all about. She didn't WANT to be leader or in a leading position, but she wanted to help because she understood that the Forsaken were her people and she understood them. She KNEW that she wouldn't be accepted and she's been going through a whole story about not feeling quite Forsaken and seeking approval.
If anything Lillian is more of a leader than Calia is - she believes Calia deserves as much of a voice as any other undead with free will.
Like it or not, she brings a unique perspective and the Forsaken are anything if not resourceful and opportunistic.
Agreed 100% wow went from Viking levels to Saturday morning cartoon real fast.
@@KrnburnFan she is but a shadow in the presence of her older brother. THE TRUE KING WHO TRIED TO SPARE US ALL THIS PAIN "blizzard writing"
Calia is the last royal heir of the Lordaeron, guess who became the forsaken the most? people of Lordaeron. So she surely has her place there, however...the Blizzard latest writing is shit without doubt.
@@verihimthered2418 WoW was never "Viking levels". Maybe vanilla had potential, with interesting story lines with Defias, Varian being kidnapped, Emerald Dream, Scarlet Crusade, etc, but TBC jumped the shark with "lol i'm randomly so mad and evul lolz!!" butchering important lore characters to get dungeon/raid bosses.
WotlK was literally comic book villain appearing, killing the underling, and saying to the player "flee, next time I will not be so lenient, hurhur, am so evil and badass!!", repeat twice every zone, only to end in a "twist" that was completely stupid, because as it turned out, leaderless Scourge would be more of a threat to Azeroth than Arthas' Scourge ever was(not to mention that undead can learn, so why bother getting "the best of the best champions" and letting them burn through all your holds, when you can just train your current undead?)
Cataclysm had the whole "Go'el" thing, which I'm not even gonna bother describing, everyone knows the "quality" of that writing.
MoP had potential, but it ended up leading into WoD which was a total shitshow.
WoD butchered the lore some more with timey-wimey "demons are beyond time, and every demon in a given timeline is the exact same one", and yet somehow Archimonde in Caverns of Time didn't ever learn to not fall for the Wisps trap.
Legion turned the game into complete sci-fi fest with orbital cannons, mechs, and devs started playing favourites with characters again by jerking off to Nathanos, Sylvanas, and Illidan all the time. "Look how cool and badass and speshul they are!!"
And I trust that no one considers BFA or Shadowlands to be "Viking levels".
How many times is the Scarlet Crusade going to be wiped out bruh?
How many times we gotta teach you this lesson old man !
Thigh power😊
The same amount of times we trolls get steamrolled
Nah they will be back on the next expansion.
In before another demon steps in to lead them
the first 2 minutes honestly got me tearing up. I loved her character and lore so much since 09' and just thinking about what they did to her character in SL makes me sick. She deserved so soo much better and would've been an amazing horde leader 😭😭
Undead is just damn weird now. I hate to do the “vanilla was way better” line, but back then it captured them well, even in wrath. They had plots, schemes, their only feeling were morose capturing joy in doing something twisted, but beneficial. Touchy feely is ok I expected it out of races and that works. But this undead dialogue just sounds so disjointed.
Yeah they've ruined the undead along with Sylvanas. Now it's some weird hippie support group.
That's fair, but it makes sense. WoW has been around for 20 years now, and the setting has changed. Back in Vanilla/Wrath everyone conflated the Forsaken with the Scourge, and the Forsaken reacted accordingly to a world that wanted them wiped out. Now, in Dragonflight, they've realized that the Forsaken are people just like them, and in a world where the Horde and Alliance aren't constantly fighting for plot reasons, they can finally start to live their lives.
Personally, I find it refreshing. I love Sylvanas but it will be good to see a Forsaken story that isn't completely centered around her for once.
Love how you break out of a dire moment specifically by using Will of the Forsaken
I've been a Sylvanas fan since I created my first Horde toon in TBC (all my friends played Alliance in vanilla but when belfs became a thing in TBC...byeeee!). I loved her story and Arthas'. Blizz totally crapped on both in SL - they made Sylvanas nuts instead of calculated. I really loved the direction of her story in Legion and thought they were setting her up to be a great Warchief but no. And Arths, well the last we see of him as this speck of light and no interaction with Jaina...ffs, wth Blizz.
I mean, Sylvanas is the equivalent of the meme "The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math." Yes, she was scheming, but her plans all being terrible and backfiring in the worst possible way is literally the story of her life (and undeath).
@@Leunenkoenig
How they had her slide into Frostmourne in the cinematic is the culmination of that math
I loved Varian as you loved Sylvanas. (I always hated her guts, but that's beside the point). I started in BC, Alliance at heart, but I rolled my share of Horde in later years. I became fond of the Tauren, Troll, and even the Undead, not so much the Blood Elf, Orc, and Goblin although I rolled them too. I would always /moon Sylvanas and really did not want to take any of her oaths, but I did it anyway so my toons could complete their quests. Otherwise, I was a loyal little hordie while playing my horde toons. The line between the factions blurred and I was never much on pvp.
I played the beta before Legion released. Most of the cutscenes were not available as I played through the Broken Shore intro. We had to limp along watching black screens and trying to take our cues from listening to the sounds of battle and scraps of dialog. The next thing I knew, my beta toon was onboard an airship hovering over Stormwind Harbor, wounded lying on the deck. Greymane handed me a letter for Anduin, saying he did not have the heart. I noticed flower petals on the marble floor as I walked the long hall into Stormwind Keep. Dread began and then cold washed over me as I saw the sarcophagus on its bier before the throne. It was only then I knew the king was dead. It hit me hard. I had no heart to go run and play, explore new zones, court new factions, collect 5 gizmos and 7 whatevers. I needed a funeral, I needed a coronation. I needed an explanation why Blizzard decided to kill my main character in the story, High King Varian Wyrnn. I never found that explanation and do not know to this day.
I was willing to try and transfer my affections to his son Anduin if Blizzard would give me half a chance. Blizzard always likes to say that Azeroth is a character in itself. If so, then the NPC are Azeroth's voice. They tell her story. Kill them and all the world falls silent as silent as the walls of Stormwind became for me. Hope sprang up a little with BFA when they gave Anduin some story that I could love. By then I had 100 toons and two subs so I was willing to hold on. Shadowlands was more than I could stomach. I would not have thought it possible to despise Sylvanas even more. Anduin was tossed in jail during the intro and remained there until the finale. His long-awaited release suddenly became all about Arthas and moments later all about Sylvanas yet again. As you say, by rights it was Uther's or it was Jaina's place to speak. The Sylvanas grudge against Arthas for taking her free will became the exact same thing she did to Anduin. Their last scene together in the Maw was my last straw, Anduin seeking wisdom and advice from the genocical maniac that Sylvanas had become. Her redemption arc was too hollow for me to swallow. Blizzard forgot to instill her with a conscience when they restored her missing chunk of soul. And there is Anduin riddled with doubt for no sound reason and abandoning his throne. Kings do not take vacations, but this player can and did.
Yeah, and I'll be honest, replacing her with Calia feels incredibly cheap. Not to mention that Calia was turned into a special undead blessed by the Light for some reason, while still maintaining perfect relations with the Alliance. Quite frankly, she feels like an Alliance plant in Lordaeron.
There's no way they sat down and thought this was a good idea for Sylvanas
I love the forsaken heritage questline and I am very satisfied with it and the heritage armor 🤩
Me too I just did it today. Love the coffin backpack lol
beautiful message
"You were so much more than just arrows in my quiver" Fuck dude i didnt expect that, after years of having a self righteous attitude she finlly tells the truth...That shit broke me.
Really? But it's not even at all consistent with her words or actions - it's like she just magically changed her mind after the fact? Seems... cheap, to me.
@@Prawnslyit's a lie, she doesn't really care
@@ramiro9660 Yeah, that's the impression I got - seems like the writers are just desperately trying to backpedal
@@PrawnslyShe didn’t change her mind. She always cared for the Forsaken, as has long been evidenced by written and in-game content.
@@ramiro9660Citation Needed
The dark lady will always watch over us
"Sylvanas won't be another Garrosh." - Blizzard like 5 years ago
they told the truth, she regrets, Garrosh regretted nothing.
@@UltimateGamerCC They flubbed her story and DID turn her into a boss and the big reveal was she was tricked by the Jailer's devious plan c'mon now, is that the cunning, morally grey Sylvanas they were telling us about? The one who had plans within plans and was serving the greater good? Nah, they caved to Alliance crying at best, such a bad end to one of the most iconic Horde leaders.
still not another Garrosh.@@gentlepengu
@@UltimateGamerCC Technically true, she's got far worse writing than Garrosh.
@@korsekil that's arguable, of course a lot of that stems from the fact that her reasoning and her story were relegated to a Book, rather than in game. if you had read the Sylvanas book, it goes into how Zo'vall basically convinced her that Free Will is an illusion and that what happened to her from losing her brother at a young age to her undeath was all fated to happen. that is why she joined with Zo'vall because he convinced her that the universe was flawed and he just wanted to fix it. she meant what she said at ICC to Bolvar, she was intending to free us all and the moment Zo'vall showed his true colors she tried to down him.
Sylvanas... what have they done to you my warchief
"But there is one thing for which I will always be proud: helping the forsaken find their place in a world that shunned them."
POV: Blizzard-writers discovering that Rock Bottom has a basement.
Sylvanas was my favorite character in the franchise and could have had a fantastic redemption story. It is fitting that I quit WoW around the same time Blizzard violated and destroyed her.
If they had gone down that path they would have drove as many people to quit. They broke her character all the way back in Cata, from there she was just varying degrees of @#$%heel.
Sylvanas was a bitch since Vanilla, Warcraft 3 in fact. it's objectively her Character, and this cinematic is the first to be so close to actually betray her (but at least she kinda has reason, but well, DF writing...)
shes comming back brother. Thats why she not fully dead.
She was never redeemable. She was a Sarah Kerrigan girlboss from before WC3 even began, and was always treacherous. You're deluding yourself.
Also the writers who are fanboys keep justifying and redeeming her anyways, you already have your redemption.
Calia is so out of place with all those others. It's so weird that they're just inserting her into the leadership.
she is by far the worst new character they added.
She is so great and beautiful
You'd they would've made her look more forsakeny at the very least. But we're supposed to believe she's this beacon of hope and optimism amongst all this debauchery.
Should’ve embraced the shadow. I don’t like her leading the banshees and I don’t like her light presence in the Forsaken.
@@apacalypsagon3758 i'm assuming she's going to be our 'anduin' character.
You cannot build a house on a foundation of vengeance, betray it, and then hope for any kind of welcome. It is still far too soon for words of contrition.
I remember first meeting Voss in Cataclysm. I was telling my guildies, "This chick is way more of a leader than Sylvanas is. Lilian is going to replace her some day." Not quite what I expected but close enough. :D
Thanks for putting this together. I will admit that not having Sylvanas as a main point in our heritage armor was a real slapped the face for The Forsaken. Most of us made Undead characters because we had an affinity for Sylvanas and everything that happened with the undead. She created us so to have this stupid desolate Council as part of the Heritage armor Quest is stupid
It makes sense thou given her betrayal of the Forsaken and the horde.
And just how the world still blames Arthas, despite losing his whole soul to Frostmourne, so do the Forsaken Sylvanas despite half her souls innocence.
Its dumb in booth cases, but at least somewhat consistant. And the horde as a whole essencially invented democracy with a leading council. Its factions obviously learned the fatal flaw of giving one person absolute power
Did... Did you not pay attention to the story? She betrayed the Forsaken. She hates you. If you want to cuck yourself to her you're sus as heck.
“Dark lady watch over you”
@Toastybees ironically at the End by the way spoilers. They Renegade on that script and she basically tells us that she loves us and always has LOL!
Truthfully I just wish they did the night elf and forsaken Heritage armor at the point where we were burning down teldrassil and losing undercity. I think that would have been a fantastic time to have it in the game! It's a shame that you didn't use the battle for darkshore to release the heritage armors for those two
@@KibaWolf04 Hollow words from an abuser. "Even though I tried to kill you and destroy everything you care about I actually loved you all along." Whatever.
Beautiful editing work, really brings back the memories of Warcraft 3 days and the amazing story Blizzard lovingly crafted for us.
No
Honestly as someone who mains undead it felt really good to hear it 😭 I worshipped sylvanas when I started playing in 07’
Sylvanas will always be the Forsaken's Queen. The one that guided them. Saved them. She, more than any other, did the most for them.
I really hope she eventually come back. As the Ranger-General of the Dark Rangers.
it really hit hard doing this part after seeing over the years how much they messed her up. I still love our Dark Lady
Greymane must be seething seeing Sylvanas have some measure of peace. XD
She is searching for Nathanos....
Wish those of us hunters who play with the Darkfallen skin could do the heritage quest, even though we wouldn't get the armor from it.
Good idea. I was thinking the same about my Belf DK. I wish I could affiliate with the forsaken.
@@tftg458 The last Belf DK that affiliated with the forsaken didn't end that well tbh
@@forwenein2669 yeah you would think so but I read later today that forsaken actually accept most dk's in their society because dk's actually went through a similar thing as the undead/forsaken did. They were controlled by the lichking untill they weren't and were outcast after.
0:00 "Greetings my most loyal ally. I speak to you now from beyond the veil of death. I am once again asking for your financial support..."
Will they ever stop shaming Arthas as the worst person ever? I dont think there is any modern quest that talks about Arthas being the victim...
A victim blinded by his own hatred which he has been told by Uther to take control of as a paladin many times?
No one forced him to burn down the ships, no one forced him to pick up Frostmourne and (accidently) kill his FRIEND by doing so.
He simply didn't care and forgot about all he been told and teached over the years in that short period of time just to reach his selfish vengeance on Mal'Ganis.
Arthas to Lich King is basically the same story as Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vadder even tho they play out a bit differently. Anger, frustration, fear all turning into pure hatred till u lost yourself completely.
@@Maltres did you even READ the effin story or are you just pulling these straight out of your arse?
He didn't kill Muradin, Muradin survived.
He had to pickup Frostmourne because he feared without it he wouldn't be able to defeat Malganis
He had to burn down the ships in order to get revenge on Malganis since it was UTHER who went tattletaling on him for what he "NEEDED & HAD" to do in the culling of stratholme to prevent an even bigger outbreak of the undead.
Yes he had flaws, he was headstrong but he was also very loyal - willing to do ANYTHING to save his people & his homeland, even if it meant becoming a literal sacrifice. He was prideful & also frightened of what might happen if he actually gave up.
but UTHER was no better considering how EASILY his spirit was later manipulated by the jailer anyway - his so called JUSTICE was just VENGENCE & REVENGE under the guise of justice. He was no better than Arthas at that point. At no point did Uther try to reason with him & at no point did it ever cross his empty paladin skull that MAYBE something or someone was MANIPULATING Arthas & corrupting him to become so evil.
How big is the Scarlet Crusade again? Haven't they been trashed multiple times over, losing leadership, being manipulated by dreadlords, or outright broken into smaller factions? I don't see how the SC can be a threat here anymore, since they also were hostile to the Alliance, and the Alliance and Horde war machines just rampaged through the area, en masse, during BFA. Something tells me that the Forsaken storylines are a bit of an afterthought.
this is the Sylvana i wanted, the one that shows exactly how she felt and shows that she admits to her wrongness.
and in all honesty? giving a proper apology to her people literally from Hell it self.
hopefully when Blizzard brings her back she and Nathanos are together and their new story won't be a fucked up one.
(I hate SL so much)
Meh I don't really care for nathanos honestly they watered him down too much into a ultimate simp to be worth anything. If they instead played on his history as a human ranger acknowledged by elves with some subtle real romance between him and sylvanas, rather then a complete dog to her bidding. He'd have some worth cause he was way too cocky for someone who basically unquestioningly did whatever sylvanas wanted no explanation given to him. Basically a puppet on a string only way to bring him back would be to play mind control card and that his servitude wasn't of his own free will and have that be some character development for the two recognizing yes it was by forceful means but it stems from something they felt for each other but they need to slowly work it out.
@Notaforumguy007 I definitely found it off that Nathanos was acting a simp and loyal servant...
Part of me to this day theorised he may not have been fully there, and though sylvannas returned his conscious, it may have only been a small fraction of him that was returned and the rest was taken to the Maw by the Jailer, I still hate SL lore myself.
But it is clear Sylvannas treasured Nathanos a ton deep within her corrupted version, and she never would realise the Jailer hid such of Nathanos's state such as him being killed by Tyrande's hands, and perhaps even more.
Its safe to say I'm glad we'll never step foot with the SL lore again, but I'm one to certainly say this theory may not be impossible after all she is not only enduring and accepting punishment, but the goal to find Nathanos and either return to Forsaken even with her nasty reputation or rest peacefully with his soul and the family that fell by Arthas's attack on Quel'thalas.
She won’t be coming back to the Horde.
Ahhhh the war criminal and mass-murderer is deep down a good person. Thanks for this lesson in morality, Blizzard!
WOW is a RPG and I chose my role as an undead Sylvanas loyalist. After she slew Saurfang, she summoned me to Windrunner Spire for debriefing before heading to Northrend. My RP essentially ended at that point. There’s nothing else to do in the story for the loyal followers of the dark lady. I never went to Shadowland because I knew I couldn’t be of any help to her cause. During the pre-patch of Shadowlands, one of the undead female priests had the audacity of asking me to take down the dark lady’s champion Nathanos. I couldn’t kill that priest as myself obviously, so I got myself infected by the scourge and turned myself into a zombie so I could slaughter that priest where she stood.
What kind of shitty writer wrote the loyalist storyline and then abandoned the story right after? Burn! Burn!!
Bro, your virginity was never secured better
WoW is a MMO.
Not a Singleplayer RPG.
Loser.
WoW is a MMO.
Not a Singleplayer RPG.
Loser.
That is blizzard for your, lore-wise after sylvanus yelled "the horde is nothing." every horde adventurer, no matter what they did collectively went "ok I hate you now/more.". However, what Blizzard doesn't understand is that when you start something like divergent story paths... you need to follow up on them. Unless you like part of your fanbase going apeshit. Throwing in just one line of text and expecting everything to be hunky dorry is woefully wrong. Now I get it, the loyalist part was just thrown in there due to backlash of a garrosh situation. But... follow up on this stuff, even a small quest in which you are forced to be on the good guy's side is preferable to the whole "shut up and eat our slop" method.
Shame that modern wow writers understand none of the nuance which made Arthas such an interesting character, simply dumbed down to just another bad guy.
It’s like they forgot the entire reason his story held weight was because of how much of an asset he would’ve been to the alliance, it wasn’t just that he was powerful, he was powerful in a way that gave hope to the people.
The old world died with Arthas, blizzard forgot what made him so important.
stop it Arthas was a insane mass murderer even before he became the Lich King going against people that loved him like his mentor Uther, janna and insisted on killing a town full of his people and subjects that's the mentality and character the writers gave him from the beginning..... don't blame the new writers they didn't decide later to give this maniac the personality of a transatlantic slave trader...lol
@@leesun1104 Arthas had absolutely no reason to quarantine Lauderon…
Oh wait… he did.
@@leesun1104 Do you not remember the “as much as it pains you, they are not the ones you remember.” quote?
It’s not like he walked into a healthy city and poisoned their grain…
@@maxwellhesher1790 so what" obviously there were other ways to dea with that situation wise Uther, and janna, would not have objected to Arthas, killing those people to stop the spread of this poison if there was no other way or choice's that could have been made in an effort to resolve the situation but Arthas didn't even want to wait and check to see if any of the people was ok and not poisoned this dude... just assumed that everybody was infected with poison and killed everybody, some times fantasy and art imitate life to show or prove a point...its a proven fact that some people are just natural born killers, and muderers some people (minds) or (Spirits) from birth are evil and they have a natural Desire to do and commit heinous! acts of violence from which they receive pleassure instead of remorse they can't seem to understand that murder and other acts of violence is only a civilized act to commit when and if its justifyed not simply because you have the power to kill and harm other people do you do so unless your like the natural born killers born to be a evil Devil that enjoy the suffering of the innocent other wise most people have at lease a small amount of decency in them and think to do no harm first: especially to innocent people once again without first checking for a none-violent solution to the problem this manniact Arthas killed everybody without first justifying the need to commit such vile acts so speedily against other human beings never entered his mind this was a first course of action for Arthas, he didn't seek-out any none- lethal ways to deal with this problem first bro! if you can't understand that as a decent not good human being but just being a decent human being you feel it realize and understand in your heart and mind that its not right to kill or murder people un-justly sir you're no better or different then a wild animal if you do so a insane murdering psychopath that should never be allowed into a civilized society of rationally thinking people, its like putting a wolfe in with sheep un-fortunately this is the state of the real world in 2024......and maybe this is the point the writers were trying to convey to there audience to think first before acting or reacting to any real life situation because you could harm or hurt innocent people
Sylvannas Windrunner. My immortal Queen. My personal favorite Horde leader.
Sylvanas won’t become another Garrosh, they said…
I'm tears 😢😢 I can't stop crying
idk about the other undead fans i will always see sylvanas as our queen then calia even the other undead npcs question it
Victory for Sylvanas
Everything Warcraft in World of Warcraft is gone. The only characters that really mattered tbh. The once that's left are just a former empty cringy shell of themselves.
But atleast we have Body 1 and Body 2...
This really hammers home how they fucked up Sylvanas's story. All because they were too cowardly to have an Alliance leader be the bad guy for once.
they never fucked up her story. she was always blatantly and openly evil.
@@flameknightdragon I didn't say she was good. She WAS however, a good leader, one who did care for her people. Her throwing away the Forsaken was the moment the writers proved they didn't care about the characters.
Unless you actually think that "Oh yeah, she was actually working for this omni powerful death God thing called the jailer the whole time, and he was the real reason for everything bad ever." Was an actual well done plot point and not a horribly contrived mess?
@@flameknightdragonNot even close.
No more Dark Lady. No more Arthas. No more Cairne. No more Garrosh. I'm not even that old, but now I feel old.
sylvanas my love my morally gray love whos character was butchered beyond any form of butchering
😂
Pfft, this was such a load of apologist crap. Good thing "she got back her split soul", what a load. The Sylvanas you got in BFA and SL was no different than in Vanilla. It's just what happens when a moralless monster gains power and has no check for her goals.
Sylvanus was always a bad character, just a whiny edgelord surrounded by a bunch of cannibalistic corpses.
Why are so many people spelling her "Sylvanus"????
@@spaceowl9246 probably autocorrect, Sylvanus is a name in the real world, with the name Silas for short. Sylvanas is the name of the character in WoW. It'd be like if they named a guy Jhon and you tried to spell it and it kept autocorrecting to John.
As a vanilla player, I hope they bring her back for the finale in the trilogy saga expansion they are making.
The Return of the Queen could be quite the moment, if done right.
I have this feeling they would get it very wrong, so i hope they dont.
So more retcons. She never viewed the forsaken or anyone as anything other than tools. It's been expressed by her time and time again.
someone didnt read the book or lore
Blizzard retconned fucking hair colours before so this isn't surprising at all.
that is just not true
well according to ShadowLands her souls was not whole, so when she became complete (thanks to nipple daddy Jailer) she was force to see her wrongness and that made her realise the actual truth.
Her people where not just Arrows in her quiver they where much more, her Arrows are much much more.
@@kylerefenes9088most people shouldn’t need to read extra material just to understand a character in the main product. That just means the main product was poorly directed.
Thank you for the work on this story and helping with all other stories!
To me forsaken need more models they should had atleast trolls, human and elf models
But they should add an aliade race with other característics
Like Calia. A fresher undead. Maybe some cool mixed race traits
Maybe they will do it they began to explore different races Dragons like Taurens, Trolls maybe they will one day do the same with Forsaken or just Undead?
I want my rotting moo cow!
You don't say? Even Trag could easily be considered a Forsaken because he not only shared his old friend's fate but also resisted the Lich King at the end.
Speaking of... It's because the Lich King lost power, the Scourge would have lost contact with him worldwide, so Vanilla would have been a perfect opportunity for the Forsaken to gather freed undead wherever there was Scourge activity, including Kalimdor.
As for the method of raising the dead, Sylvanas previously had necromancers among her ranks. This may totally sound like WarCraft III, but perhaps she should have kept some and some Crypt Fiends to help protect fellow Forsaken.
When they made Sylvanas a villain and made Horde and Alliance allies in the story I expected Blizzard to combine the latter in a single faction as well as make Forsaken a new one and give Forsaken players an option to play as every other race. It for sure would resolve trait disparity. Also I thought that maybe Sylvanas's loyalists would turn into undead in the end.
In short I thought they would make the game about Horde & Alliance vs Forsaken instead of Horde vs Alliance.
Alright guys enjoy your world of femalecraft.
I think she's referencing Nathanos being in the maw somewhere
I hope they come back eventually in story or game idc which
Lirath
MY QUEEN😭😭😭😭
I like the apothecary that just wants to blow shit up xD
They should have let the Scarlet Crusade be a faction
Did the Blood Elves truly reject the dark rangers or is it just added stuff? It may be bias due to my main characters being belves, but as far as I know, they've always been the closest race to the forsaken. All of Azeroth may have some prejudice, but these two have been supporting each other for quite long.
Sylvanas' voice actress does know how to deliver those feels. We can almost forget the bad writing that her character went through for a minute. But we remember again, as soon as Arthas' name gets brought to the conversation again.
At least, the forsaken leaders get screentime, but Calia still acts too alliance-like. And, as someone who enjoyed BFA, it's sad to see Derek as only an accessory for her. He promised so much more back then...
Oh, and I thought about the Windrunner dead brother, but then remembered those datamined Nathanos lines. They should happen at some point. And I'm not sure how I'd feel about seeing him again. Hopefully he does more than self-inserty stuff. He's also had memorable moments.
I for one welcome the return of our BfA Overlord, Nathanos. XD I honestly miss his snark and attitude with missions. He gave the Horde some flavor.
@@GuardianOfMoon his VA was spectacular. I want him back simply so that I could listen to his voice lines again. "Pfffft.... speaker of the Horde!"
The Dark Rangers are Night Elves, not Blood Elves. It was the Night Elves who rejected their fallen brethren when Sylvanas burned the world tree and raised a bunch of them into her army. At least that's how I saw it all explained.
@@Elithraedark rangers have always been high elves, they’re literally rangers that served and died with sylvanas defending quel’thalas. they did raise some night elves to be dark rangers in bfa but the OGs are high elves.
lmao I see the writers do excellent job castrating Horde and removing everything that made them badass in the first place, and I say this as an Alliance player
1:44 great reference to Nathanos, I thought Blizzard had completely forgotten about him. Wish we could see their reunion. Sadly this whole storyline seems like the end for Sylvanas and I doubt Blizzard has any plans left for her. She will most likely make a comeback in like 10 years where people can get all nostalgic again.
I love how they turned Voss from this NPC side character on a forgettable quest into a major recurring character that now is an important part of the current story going forwards. I hope a few other 'forgettables' get this treatment at some point. Warcraft, more than anything else, needs new leaders. All the others are either dead, or so tied up in endless journeys of self-discovery and repentance that they're just no longer usable for the plot.
Characters we've met throughout our journeys on Azeroth and beyond. Ones who, because of our heroic actions, got to survive and thrive in a world consumed by warcraft. Ones we can hopefully begin to explore in a deeper way.
New leaders to ease Warcraft into a new installment with Warcraft 4, and maybe eventually, World of Warcraft 2 or something similar.
I personally have always gotten a chuckle that her name is almost identical to "Liliana Voss" the incredibly powerful necromancer planeswalker of Magic the Gathering.
Glad they are least referenced Nathanos after we sent his ass to the Maw. I miss him
ye about time lol
My beloved Lordaeron... I always enjoyed playing Arathi and imagined to conquer the whole region for the Alliance.
Scarlet Crusade: We need to kill these forsaken undead because they are murdering monsters.
Forsaken: The Scarlet Crusade is trying to kill us, I know, lets murder them all.
I mean, dafuq are they gonna do? Sit there and die happily while religious fanatics are invading their home?
Can't emphasize enough how disgusted I am with the handling of Sylvanas. Since the day I first started playing in BC, I was obsessed with Sylvanas and her tragic back story then triumphant rise to Banshee Queen and leader of the forsaken. Only reason I rep grinded so hard for Undead. I get a very distinct feeling that game developers were never going to let us have our horde dark lady stay in any seat of power, yet look how they wrote Jaina's whole story for Alliance. She gets to almost massacre Orgrimmar and purge Darlaran of Horde when she was in charge and no one bats an eye and still considers her as sanctimonious as Anduin🙄 It's enough to make me 🤮
I think Jainas story just sailed over your head
@@greenicetea3546No, they’re absolutely right. Jaina turned from an advocate of peace to a genocidal maniac and is still lauded as a tragic hero by much of the player base. It’s pathetic.
@@Ultimaton100 Because she IS a tragic hero. Garrosh literally nuke her city and you expected her to react nicely ? And you also forget that there actually were blood elves who plotted against Dalaran. Her decision to purge Dalaran of blood elves wasn't solely based of genocidal desires. Even though she hated the horde as much as ever at that moment.
@@SupraSwordTheramore was a legitimate military target. It was used as the staging ground for the Alliance’s invasion of central Kalimdor, and it was soldiers wearing the Theramore tabard who massacred multiple villages. This was all in direct violation of the nonaggression pact Jaina signed with the Horde, mind you.
Furthermore, none of the Sunreavers plotted against Dalaran. A lone deserter who had already cut ties with the group utilized some of their spells to infiltrate Darnassus for the Horde.
Jaina then decided based on that alone that all Sunreavers were somehow involved and decided to start killing them and sending her underlings to kill them when their leader refused to let her imprison all of them on false pretenses.
Jaina Proudmoore is a complex character with layers, no doubt, but she’s not a hero. She turned her back on everything she once stood for even before the bombing of Theramore. She’s a case study as to how far a supposedly good person can fall when they refuse to be held accountable for or correct their mistakes.
"May the Father lie blameless for the deeds of the son.
May the bloodied crown stay lost and forgotten."
11:00 you did not just call Arthas a man child…. Wooooooooooooooooooooow😮
The Scarlet Crusade is still strong enough to be a threat? How do they manage that?
not sure i was so confused too
they have the power of "cheap story writing"
Because that's what happens when you fight to reclaim your land
They should have been disbanded as a group after WoD. Their members should have better joined the argent dawn and crusaders or even the Alliance since they have reclaimed more of Lordaeron then they ever did.
*Lady Sylvanas will always be my Warchief & Queen*
Traitor’s Need Not Apply!
#MakeHordeGreatAgain
I was rooting for the scarlet crusade, purge the heretics!
I highly recommend reading or listening to the Sylvannas book. I wasn't too sure about it in the beginning but now I want to go back to it as it filled in quite a few holes in my knowledge of her.
Warcraft ended for me, with the Lich King on his throne in Northrend. Camera fading out further and further. Anything else is just a fever dream :
wow, so edgy...and unique
To me it was: "Father is it finally over? I only see darkness before me". As it if was a nightmare a feverish dream. That is where Arthas died. In my eyes he panicked and got desperate at Stratholme. He basically snapped.
With every day, I am starting to believe more and more that there needs to be something that forces WoW only players to at LEAST play and beat Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne before they can comment on lore matters ever again.
Actually, we need to make the writers also go through the games again, since they are if anything even more clueless.
Out of the 2 new Heritage armor quest lines. This one for the Forsaken was the better one. The Night Elf was not terrible but having to do half of it in stealth with Miaev complaining every time you either got a little bit ahead of her or fought a demon was so very tiresome, and almost made me hate the quest.
imo, I hope having three expansions like this will help avoid the writing issues that had befallen Sylvanas, disregarding the Nathanos addition(maybe self insert whatever; also do you know in lore he was described as a master strategist and tactical genius, lol) and strategic bad choices.
having three expac and pacing the story around that could give us better usage of chekhov's gun theory and generally improve it all.
Ugh, if there were ever one less deserving of a redemption arc, it was Sylvanus.
I fucking hate what this game became.
our queen will return fret not my forsaken brothers !! rend flesh with me !!
There is no shame to Arthas Menethil's lagacy. He was a great man who happened to fall down a dark path. Don't understand how people fault him so. What he became doesn't erase everything he once was and I'm tired of the narrative that keeps reinforcing this idea that Arthas was a monster and always will be.
Agreed. That's what makes Arthas such a great, tragic character. He was flawed yea - prone to emotions, hot-headed choices, and not thinking things through when he was emotional - but he was also someone who cared deeply about his people, and those around him, and looked after the citizens of his Kingdom and had great respect for his peers and mentors. Its what makes his story so tragic because he had good intentions to use Frostmourne to save Lordearon, and was willing to damn himself to do it; but as always the path to hell is paved with good intentions and even he couldn't see that it would corrupt him wholly in the end. I honestly wish he got a better send-off in Shadowlands than what we got.
.....*Bruh.*
I'm so tired of hearing that lol.
He culled Stratholme WELL before Frostmourne. He was WARNED about Frostmourne and chose it willingly. Says to Muradin "NOTHING will stand in the way of my revenge. Not even you, old friend."
Like, dude. Why does everyone keep lionizing this bastard?
"What he once was?" HE was an egomaniac that Uther was trying to keep in line FROM THE FIRST MOMENT YOU DEAL WITH HIM in WC3.
Do people just, not bother to learn their lore? It's so freaking insane to me how many people are willign to write Sylvanas off as The Worst Thing Ever, when she was LITERALLY condemned to her fate by Arthas (doesn't excuse her actions, don't get me wrong) --- when ARTHAS CHOSE FROSTMOURNE KNOWINGLY. KNOWING IT WAS CURSED.
This is just showing the joke that WoW is, just before she killed Saurfang and said "you all are nothing". And now to make it that she did it all for the Forsaken? It just shows that they're running out of impacting content in retail.
I think this is about the best we could get. I hope she frees everyone and returns in an expansion or two. With her love of course.
Sylvannas or how ever you spell it She is my favorite character but in dragon flight she is not dead but if she is this is ruining my childhood
Sylvanas cannot and should not be redeemed. They ruined her, leave it at that.
I agree with the Scarlet Crusade. Being an undead doesn't mean you are evil. Being a Forsaken means you are worse than the Scourge, because you don't need the influence of a Death God to try to exterminate humans
o7
Always and forever will be my True Queen!
Once she returns, I shall be ready to stand by herside once more!
I am with you trap.
Victory for Sylvanas! As a vanilla player❤
I remember her as a throw away character when creating a new FS character. Back then when the line finished Lilian was never mentioned. That was to me a wasted opportunity it could have added another layer.
In TBC days, which is when I started playing MMOPG I got the back story. I may have a slight colouring as I did play the stand alone warcraft games first. I remember fighting the SC back in the dark and distant past and wondering why they weren't wiped out,
Also there is a reason Lady S worked so hard to get the Horde to accept Belves, as they are descendents of her people who she originally thought were wiped out. IT is why Belves and Foresaken started as friendly towards each other compared to the rest of the horde factions.
The scene starting at 9:43 those were how Lady S was to ensure the survival of her people, which is something she worked to ensure considering she felt she had failed the high eves. Back in the day they were considered bad amongst the general player base, and the writers though the new ones, but in this scene they are now good things.
So, the Forsaken have retaken their capital while Teldrassil is still and will remain ashes. In the grand scheme of things it would have been fair if Undercity would have been deemed unrecoverable.
I don't understand why the Alliance hasn't wiped out the undead already. Also Calia is just as bad as Arthas now.
even more so alliance won the battle at Lordaeron but they just give it back to the undead....
Except darkshore was recivered in the next patch. Honestly though let's be real that tree should never have been burnt in the first place.
From the very beginning i NEVER understood the Forsaken ... they KNOW what they are, and plots always show them as traitors and vile people (yeah, toying with Plague and Apothecary is not what i call "cool" for a background) and over this, after the Fall of Arthas they still being monsters ... Calia must a kind and good looking, they should all, like Sylvanas, search for peace in the Maw.
This faction have nothing to do anymore on Azeroth, they proved their evilness and they can't be trusted,
Blizzard ruined her character so bad. Like almost every character...The company really went down so bad after Activision came in