Why Yamaha NS10's SOUND HORRIBLE?!?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2018
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The legend.....NS10’s sound like shoeboxes BUT when it sounds good on them it sounds good anywhere.
The ns10 became a standard because when Larger studios in the 80s made a shift towards adding nearfields Yamaha was wise enough to foresee the market and gave many major studio free pairs. So they started appearing in most music magazine pictures of studios. It was an early example of successful product placement. I was an trainee engineer in the 80s and the studio I worked at was on the promo list when it happened.
I mix on NS-10's at a very "LOW" volume in mono. Once I get the EQing & mix right, I reference on my Tannoy's 15" dual concentric's & the mix always sounds terrific. Lower volume lets you mix longer as well. Give it a try. i'm sure they will make a huge difference in your mixing & mastering. Thanks to Bob Clearmountian, for the introduction. From an old 60's rocker !
I've found 3 specific places where the ns10m's are great: 1 getting the right amount of balanced thump to a bass drum; 2 getting the snare to sit well; and 3 hearing reverbs more clearly than will apear to the final user on consumer equipment.
I attribute most of my hearing loss to the NS-10 in conjunction with the Aphex aural exciter type B. And about 300 mixes of course.
damn i almost feel my tinnitus getting louder from reading that
The Aphex Aural Exciter was never my cup of tea.
That said, I knew someone who compared it to Listerine. You hate it but use it twice a day.
MJ Klein thanks for the advice
MJ Klein and what about the auratones, they do ear fatigue ?
@@AboveEmAllProduction
L😂L
We used NS-10s and a single auratone to check mono. This was back in the 80s. Some things can't really be improved.
Best monitors in history.
I got mine more than 20 years ago, that's what I'm using to listen to this video.
If music sounds bad on the NS10s, it's not the speaker's fault ;)
HAHHAhahahaha ok buddy ;)
I mixed for years on NS10's with a combination of other monitors. It's the reference constancy you get with the NS10 i.e. music mixed well on NS10's tends to sound great on other systems, especially club systems, which is why the majority of 90's UK dance music producers used them. There's an art to using them though, things like if the woofer starts to blat ( or fart as some people say ) at a certain volume your bass is too high in the mix. They're also great for vocal and instrument placement, especially guitars against vocals. NS10's never sounded good though ( which is what a lot of people don't seem to get ) they're just a great reference for getting the frequencies sitting in the correct place in your mix. It's a grot box really.
I'll also add that the people who tend to hate on them probably either haven't actually done that much mixing with them or haven't been schooled in how to use them properly. The hate is completely unwarranted, their track record is second to non for a small nearfield. More hits have been mixed on this speaker than any other out there, that's a fact.
I mean, I no longer use Ns10's mainly because the tweeters are now hard to come by ( and you do blow tweeters with this monitor ) I now mainly use ADAM A7X's but I still favour the grot box combined with another monitor for referencing mixes. My grot box of choice is now the Behritone C50A ( for mids ) and the tiny £10 X-mini to gauge how mixes will sound coming out of say a laptop or smartphone.
I found much the same. They highlight and exaggerate any flaws and nuances in the mid bass to lower vocals. I found my mixes started to have much better definition and tightness there. Though I didn't like how much body i would tend to pull out of that whole range, and at times would end up with a somewhat cold and thin mix. And that became part of learning how to use them properly. I use mine in combination with redone Koss m105 powered MTM's and Hiel AMT 1's. With testing on about 15 other systems... And things keep getting better.
NS10s sound as good as the mix is.
The point of a monitor is not to give you a "good sound", as you said, but it's to give people opportunity to do a "good mix".
That said, I use them for everything, I also watch TV on my NS10s, and if are used to their color (which is none) you enojy their sound too :)
Now, I don't strive for 'hits', nor do I have enough experience to be of any authority here. But in my opinion the NS10's are great for their purposes, but I do think there are better options out there today. Not everyone is as sensitive, but I find my mixes get dull through later (somewhat similarly voiced) monitors by Yamaha because of their brightness. I'm sure I could adapt with enough time in front of them, but that's where my only actual problem with them arise. NS10's (and to a lesser extent HS-7's or HS-8's) simply are too sharp for me to be able to *work* with. The ear fatigue is so overwhelming that I need to reset so often I have a problem keeping efficient.
You can achieve similar accuracy without the emphasized high mids today.
And yes ChristianIce, *all* monitors, *all* speaker cones colour sound. Some more than others, but they all do. NS10's are exceptionally neutral, but nothing is truly neutral.
@@skatterpro Absolutely agree, all speakers sound different. Wouldn't say the NS10's were exceptionally neutral though, but why would you work with something you can't stand listening to?!
I found a pair of LS3/5A's that I'm enjoying using very much. Bit hot around 140-150 but still great.
I'll never forget the study that proved the toilet paper tweeter attenuation trick caused comb filtering and was ruining mixes. I used them along with my EAW MS-50 monitors. Great combination.
"properly mixed music.. which sadly isn't in the charts right now"
Few words that have been spoken have rung so true..
i want to know more about your philips mfb modified, did you modified the terrible tweeters? which tweeters did you put instead of the originals? great videos by the way!
Nice! video WSS, nothing like the crack of an acoustic snare on NS10's ❤️ Just be sure to fuse them because they're easy to blow. Using a (1.5) amp fast blow fuse works for me.
Great video! They're really hard to find nowadays, though. Yamaha now has a similar series of active monitors; the HS series. With that white cone, too. The reason why they are so popular is because the're awesome in the midrange, where most of music audio happens to be on a small frequency range: from 800 Hz to 6 kHz
The HS series is another speaker, the NS-10s sound much worse (I'm one of those who consider them pure garbage to ears). The HS series has that modern "Hi-Finess" and (texture wise) sound like most of the modern speakers, the NS on the other hand have this horrible, distinctive sound
I actually took drivers from an old NS10 pair and made proper calculated boxes for them not those weird rectangles they come in. I took reference from the HS8s cabinet design and the overall quality got impressively better and detailed. Improved the low end as well, which I was not expecting I thought it would make them worse overall.
About 10 years ago a friend oh mine gave me a pair of those NS10, and initially my ears felt the same as yours. But after a while, those speakers became my daily work horse. I appreciate you gave them (as I) a second hearing chance - and also your honesty in stating your opinions and/or conclusions. One thing I may add is that over those 10 years, I've changed 3 times my pre/power gear and 5 times moved to new studios. In all those occasions the NS10 were able to give me a comfortable 'family' instant reference as I become used to a new sound environment.
tony pelosi I can relate. I got mine about 8 years ago as payment for a mix. At first I was mostly confused by the sound but I kept with them and over time I got used to them. Now they’re huge part of my mixes.
What amps have you used with them?
Absolutely, totally agree with you Tony. NS-10m's have always been my go to. Once someone learns how to use them correctly, & get use to them, they'll never switch to another ! Perfect
waffles toast I’m sure you’re asking OP, but personally I paired mine with the Drawmer MPA 90.
Love the NS10's! Started using them for the first time a couple months ago in my studio and love referencing on them
I got $20k Pmc’s and I always reference through my NS 10’s
thats cool!
Nice informations, always wondering what was the deal with them. Would you recomend them as a logical choice if you can have only one pair of speaker for some reason in a home studio (limited space/budget)? they seem to be only for checking not for surgical mix ( but good headphones can deliver this anyway so it could be a viable solution)
Spot on about how engineers brought their own gear into studios in the '80s. I'd heard about some of them bringing the ADS L710s or L810s for their exceptional near-field sound. I tried a pair of L810s on this desktop as a test, and they're still up here six months later. Best-sounding speakers I've ever listened to, much less had on this desktop. Had to use pads to keep the bass from traveling through this heavy desk, but other than that, wondrous sound.
ns-10m studio are my favorites, its like having car speakers in your studio.. pretty dope
I've followed the discussion about the characteristics of the NS10's. Now that I'm about to buy some monitors for mixing at home I tested some speakers at the music store. All about the same price range and 5". The HS5 won the race. Yes, they are lacking LF and are maybe not the best choice for listening to heavy metal or other music with strong subs. But the clarity in the mid and high range was x times stronger than with all other models. It was like seeing the instruments right in front of you, not hidden behind the speakers. That's why I'm gonna buy them. Though everything is a matter of taste, too. But now I can imagine why NS10's are so legendary.
They are excellent to listen to the mid range and resonant frequencies. They are like a pair of reference ears for mids. Nosy and boxy sounds on vocals and kicks really jump out on these speakers.
Minus 10 points for not mentioning Bob Clearmountain.
I once met him and he apologized for starting the trend lol
Holy shit!! Did you say Bob Clearmountain? Lol. I actually worked with him as a teenager here in NYC at Power Station Studios doing background vocals on a Bob Dylan record. Wow... Bob fucking Clearmountain... smh. A legend bro!
horowizard 10 points for you
This is great, digging your channel! I have tried a Mixcube, but as my old ears have the treble turned down anyway found it a touch dull perhaps? I now have a OneConcept kitchen radio in that place. Mainly I use KH-120A's which are fine in my tiny room, however I was thinking of getting a pair of Yamaha MS-5's which have something of the NS10 vibe about them, for another comparison. As the KH-120's are pretty full range another option I'm trying is to set up an NS10 eq template?
great video, man, what is the type name/brand of your mixing cube?
NS 10's look cool aswell! :-) have you ever heard the Kii Three? I'm curious what you would think of those! greetz
When I was looking for my first monitors I checked out the NS-10's and then the Tannoy PBM 6.5's, the Tannoys gave me a better mix every time when I would take it around to listen to on various systems, car stereos etc. And every time I saw NS-10's in any studio small or large they had with out exception napkins over the tweeters! At any rate, get some Barefoot Footprint monitors and you have a wonderful monitor with subs included and the flattest frequency in it's class bar none, and you also get the dsp x-over with the "classic" setting which emulates the character of the NS-10's so you feel at home if you are used to them. It also has flat, cube and stereo settings so you wouldn't need the Avalon's plus you can hear how your mix translates to stereo speakers all with a twist of the knob on the x-over. Worth a look since you don't have that huge deck. Use iso pucks as well, your deck won't properly decouple your speakers and the difference is less smear in the bottom end and less phase and cabinet anomaly effects. Not all that cheap but a bargain as they are very good quality and replace 3 sets of monitors and one stereo speaker pair all in one.
They actually don't sound horrible, at all. You have to use them in similar room acoustic found in studios where they were used to mix the most important records in history. Basically, laying on a foamed surface, close to a reflective angled window (a mirror can do), a mixing console in front of you (or a set of keyboards can also do) and I would also add a medium size object in between them. I have an horizontal pair of studio NS10 in front of me and they sound super good.
funny similar thing - the Celestion speakers from the Marshall guitars cabs were originally taken from the home radio receivers of 1950's
very interesting and so relevant..a question that i wanted answered but never though to ask.hmmm
Hey there, just thought I would mention that Avantone is making brand new NS-10's. They are Avantone Pro CLA10. You can also buy the woof's and tweets from them and build your own boxes. The crossover schematics are on the internet or Experiment with your own. Hope that was helpful.
Yep. They're nowhere near the sound of the ns10m studio
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the NS 10s....Between the NS 10s and the Auratone Speakers, which would you recommend if you had to Pick Just one as your seconf monitors
Another big reason I've been reliably informed is to do with their closed box design, and how this effects their timing response, making them really punchy and tight sounding (like you noticed).
Hiya, which model of NS-10's were you using here? NS-10M Pro? NS-10M Studio? Thanks!
Very insightful. Thanks!
Awesome point. There where monitors like that in the studio I worked in before, and I miss their honesty. So many go for the KRK theese days, and I think they aren't that stiff, and they colour the sound a bit. Could you say anything about the tweeters? Are there any kind of filtering in them?
Try the 'NS-10M Studio' models... they're 60w-RMS not 25w-RMS and they have a more balanced LF/HF crossover which takes away a TON of that fatigue, or look into tweeter mods for (non-studio) NS10M models - I work on both
I remember when Waves had them on sale 1/2 off
What do you think of focal alpha 65? Would love to see a review on that.
Hello, I enjoy your videos and i trust your opinions also. It would be super interesting if you could do a review of the Avantone CLA10A Chris Lord-Alge Active Studio Monitor System. I am thinking of getting these but i'm a bit not sure.... i was also looking at the Kali Audio Lp6 & 8. Cheers :)
I am running a pair of mordaunt short carnival 3, giving me a great range to create texture on. I have boss am5 and hs 80for reference
Do you always use your Avantone speakers in stereo? I have just one for mono checking mixes.
Me too. Pretty good in my humble opinion.
I love them and I love the auratone 5c for mixing they both really tell the truth ... But I think I prefer my 5c's a little more but only just a little
You could be the son of Steven Wilson.
Good video :)
Hi what are you using to power the ns 10's? i'm looking at getting a pair but trying to find a suitable amp is a nightmare. can't seem to get a straight answer anywhere
Which old Yamaha amp did your friend lend you with the speakers?
Thanks for the speaker recommendation Mr Audiophile!
Why you get such less views..... You are one of the best out there, doing your thing... Hope you get more views. Thank you for your time
He's my favorite TH-camr on this type of content. I feel like he's my secret weapon haha. I don't share enough because I don't have so much network on this business.
@@luancav Same here, his vids should get way more attention!
@ElAlexxis Yup, too much hype, WAY too much fluff to content. The content he does do is GREAT, but can be found hype free
Agree recently became a super fan :) really great / honoust / indepth content!
Presumably, you’ve had a chance to turn out final mixes using your mix cubes… So you would have an indication of how well they translate, no?
I had the Yamaha NS 10’s above my console for many years throughout the 80s and 90s; it’s not that I liked them very much, because I thought that they were very fatiguing, especially when clients wanted me to mix at hotter levels of 85 DB and above... The main reason I had them, was that in those days, if you owned a commercial recording facility, you were “expected” to have them (thanks a lot, Bob Clearmountain, LOL); it didn’t matter what other monitors you had, because there were many great sounding monitors ( mostly passives in those days) that translated mixes incredibly well, that were nowhere near as fatiguing as the Yamaha’s. Unless the client specifically asked that I mix through the Yamaha’s for the entire session, I would normally mix through JBL‘s, or Urei Big Red‘s, and then PERIODICALLY check the mix through the Yamaha‘s for very short intervals of it me. That said, thousands of hit records have been mixed through the Yamaha‘s over the years; I just could never take their harsh sonic characteristic for very long, and I never thought that other commercial recordings sounded very good through them, either.
IMHO.
How do you like the mixcubes? Did you by chance compare them to the new auratones?
you might wanna give some JBL LSR-300 series a shot. they translate really nice without hurting your ears! also def use them with and without a sub. I use to have M-Audio BX8's before my house got broken into (they took my whole studio). The BX8's sound awesome and are really LOUD but they don't translate as well to other poor quality systems. I have a pair LSR-305's and will always keep them around to reference my mixes on.
Good vid!
I realized that subtitle detected your english as dutch :) Thanks for the video!
What amp did you use for the NS-10
cone flex=distortion. the surround, cone mass and loading determine the resonant frequency, not the cone stiffness which ideally would be perfectly rigid to minimize flex and distortion
Really liked this video!
Brilliant video :) I didn’t know that about the NS10. I have a confession to make, I’ve finally started to like my HS50 because I’ve finally started to nail my mixes.
So I need a second set of speakers in my studio to avoid or at least reduce the car test method... should I go with the Cubes or the NS-10's?
I don't think the car test can be simply replaced by using NS10s.
Great video as always! Would you please recommend a good analog EQ for mastering? Maybe 500 series and not very expensive. Much appreciated. Thanks a lot.
Babak Saeedi depending on what your budget is, a pair of Maag EQ4s might be worth looking into.
i also use broadband speakers like the mix cubes and they have a additional advantage,they produce a good artificial room because of the point surce, i just use smaller broadband speakers (better high end in that pice range) but with a subwoofer
Ik gebruik ze ook, en heb ook echt een haat liefde relatie met ze, lol. Lekker bezig met je video's gozer.
What monitors would you recommend for a home studio.? Please... Ed
what is the name of the Off yellow speakers? i had those but never used them
A producer forced me to get NS-10's about 9 years ago . I now always start a mix with NS-10's .
They always make me notice harshness around 1.6K and they have good lower mids for
mixing vocals . When I feel somewhat finished a mix I then use the Genelec 8040A's and usually tweak
a bit of 360-460HZ down a hair . Through all of this I'm checking the mix with Audio Technica ATH-M70x
headphones . I can't say which is more irritating those NS-10's or those Audio Technica headphones .
Well.... for years I had heard the internet hype of the NS 10's and considering the price to buy a pair thought that they must be some quite cool sounding speakers. So in the back of my mind I had always wished that I had a pair but never quite felt like spending 4 or 5 hundred dollars to buy a pair off of Ebay. One day I was at my local thrift shop and there was a pair for sale in there with a price tag of $7 on each speaker! Needless to say I shelled out $14 and left the store with a pair of NS 10's! I was stoked. But I have to say that that was my high point of being stoked on those speakers. After hooking them up to a receiver I was a bit surprised to discover that there was no "wow" factor going on with the sound of these speakers. I hooked them up to a few different receivers and listened to a bunch of different stuff... I just didn't find them to be any better sounding then maybe some average speakers such as Advent tower speakers or something basic like that. I TRIED to like them, I wanted to... I just could never get away from the "HO HUM" feeling that I had about the sound of those speakers. Nothing special. So I put them on Craigslist for $300 and sold them about 2 days after I put the ad on there.
so and also .. does the amp that you use matter when powering these yamahas?
How does billboard chart music sound on your mixcubes?
Haha, I don't blame you, I have them but I get you, how many do you need when you have other things on the list. Right now my wish list is thunderbolt audio interface, new headphones and an ipad.
I know this is old but for anyone researching NS10s make sure you get the NS10ms, the ones that sit on their side! The reason is the tweeters are different, the NS10ms(studio version) have less ear fatiguing tweeters in them, which is super important! Also the amp you drive your NS10ms is just as important, and you will see after researching that Bryston amps pop up as the go to amp for driving NS10ms. Which is great... but a used pair of NS10ms will run you about $500-600$ or so but the Bryston 4b(or variant of) is about 1400$! Well that's a lot of money. Hafler is another name that works great for the NS10ms for about a 10th of the price (used) and is what I use. Whatever way you go make sure to get the ones that lay on their side though(NS10ms-s stands for studio version), HUGE NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE!
It's the damping that stops the cone moving not the stiffness. Classic spring-damper theory: mx'' +cx' + kx = 0, i.e. (force due to acceleration + force due to damping on motion + force due to stiffnes = 0). Without cx' the cone would vibrate forever; in the real world that would never happen since c will be comprised of many differing parameter including the desired damping factor.
All true.. And the spider and the surround are also very stiff on these monitors (I own both NS10M and NS10M Studio pairs)
First video i have seen where someone actually talks about ns10 vs mixcubes. I have been looking for that for such a long time. Fun fact..if you did not know allready..Avantone is also making a NS10 clone speaker now.
I love my NS10s. I think you may find that their excellent time response is due to their sealed cabinet design as much as the cone material: a rare format in today's near-field market. BTW still trying to find your review on your midfield monitors. Link please? Cheers.
i like your video .......... what you say about the NS-10's is quite accurate indeed ......... just curious, though ..... with your accent, where are you from ....?
I agree. NS10's are brutally honest. Great to have as an alternate pair of 'mix checkers' as you say. Cheers.
Great explanation as to why we see these everywhere
What model of the NS10 are you trying? I have NS10m in studio b and NS10m Studio at studio a, and they are very different.
HoboRec I was wondering the same
Interesting! Care to elaborate on the differences you notice? I have a pair of NS-10m myself
have a horizontal and vertical model they re different
The NS-10M Studio's have a tweeter foam surround, horizontal logo and woofer and a 60W RMS - 120W Peak capability. The NS-10M's featured in this video are the (non studio version) which have the Vertical orientation logo and woofer, and a 25W-50W capability and no foam surround inside the tweeter cage. I've owned both. Many NS-10M (non studio) owners using them in studios place tissue across the tweeter to soften the HF a small amount, (which was later addressed in the NS-10M Studio Monitors Crossover)
this is the reason you never listen to these yters 100%
Toto's "A thousand years". A masterpiece!
Well look here, the Dutch mini-me of Steven Wilson !!
What is the brand and model of your mix cubes?
Avantone mixcube
Do you really need two mix cubes? I thought one would suffice...mixing in mono
have you tried Amphions ? One 15 or One 18 ... like ur stuff... cheers !
There is a reason NS-10's were so successful. It's not their frequency response. It's how relatively "quick" they are (an aspect in monitoring systems measured with waterfall graphs), allowing to better hear transients and where they sit in the mix. You can "learn" the frequency response (frequency domain) of a monitoring system and compensate for it in your head when mixing, but you can't "learn" its time domain nor compensate for it if it's rubbish. This is the primary secret behind NS-10's and why they make mixing easier despite their funny mid-range-centric frequency response. Notice how many monitor makers sell "flat" frequency responses but hardly show any waterfall graphs or talk about why that's important in judging mixing monitors. Not that I'd recommend buying NS-10's these days of course (because there are some great monitors from serious providers that do address this) but just saying. :-)
Interesting... what do you suggest?
I like your tests on cheap stuff too, because sooner I heard which speakers with amplifier equipment I personally liked to listen to, but then there were some so-called audio experts who explained that this is the wrong sound and by that for that reason, I've spent more money on a Hi-End equipment than what a new car costs and feel that maybe there's a waste of money for my part!
I was about to get these when I was putting together my studio but I ended going with the Yamaha HS8's and some Auratones.
I still want them and some krk rokits, but only because I'm still pretty paranoid about mix translation.
A trick I’ve been doing for almost a decade..bounce your sessions directly onto a cloud service like Dropbox. Then you can immediately hear it on other sources. Especially the sources you’re more likely to be heard on. Like laptop speakers, phone speakers, the car, ear buds. This helped me quite a bit getting better at mix translations over the years. It’s so quick, that if you’re questioning your mix, just bounce the track and you’re checking it on everything within seconds. Hope this helps! GL!
@@ilikemyrealname Great tip thanks!
It’s absurd how expensive a pair of NS 10 in good condition have become on the second hand market.
What are the mix cubes you have there?
What is your console?
Enjoyed this.
what can you say about m-audio monitors? bx series
NIce Video love NS-10 :)
So a new question: Mixcubes or CLA10a'a with the VTPC knob being used?
I have seen people talk separately on both but I trust you the most with this.
Could you maybe because the CLA10a's are new, ask them if you can do a comparison video with your MixCubes?
I think you would be able to make a good no hype comparison that even if they weren't perfect would still sell them based on people who watch your channel appreciate the honesty and you would probably find a reason they would be useful.
Wonderfully honest and perceptive review
When using the mixcubes dont you need an additional speaker for the highs?
Tell me more about this i was sold on the cubes . Was gonna use to make beats with
I have NS144 speakers which WERE made as studio monitors with HF attenuators at the same time as NS10s. Due to the success of the 10s they were only made for a year or so. I think they have same cones...
How does the ns10s compare to the mixcubes?
now that you've heard the NS10s you need to get a set of the new Avantone CLA10 and see if they stack up to the O.G.
I think I experienced the same annoying sound you described at 3:20 with my HS8. Do anyone else's ears hurt with those as well?
Nederlander 100% Keep up these videos ;)
They came out in the 70's as part of their NS series of loudspeaker, their NS1000 was the flagship of that series.the ns10 didnt sell because they were nasty sounding and very expensive.They were very ' midrangy'a common characteristic of japanese speakers back then.While the japanese use to to sell tons of tape deck and amps and turntables their speaker never sold very well.
If you know equal loudness contours (smile face EQ that makes things sound 'loud' its what our ears hear in frequency difference between loud/soft) , the NS10 is basically the opposite of one (grumpy face?) , so that you may compensate and thus sounds louder.
They were built for bookcases though and the amount of bass resonance in that environment.
It has a +5 dB boost in the midrange at around 2 kHz