Super Mario Sunshine’s Blue Coins are Great, and that’s why I Hate them.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- The blue coins in Super Mario Sunshine are a great reward for thoroughly exploring all the different stages. I also absolutely hate those coins. So what went wrong?
Well the answer is: It’s complicated.
There are several reasons why I end up really disliking the blue coins that I otherwise really like. So today we are going to take a deep dive into my love hate relationship with the blue coins in Super Mario Sunshine. We will not only discuss how the blue coins succeed at what they set out to achieve, but also why they fail miserably at the same time. We will not only try to find out what went wrong with them, but we will hopefully also learn about a couple of interesting and often lesser discussed crimes in game design that the blue coins in Super Mario Sunshine commit.
------------------Credits for the Music-------------------------
Super Mario Sunshine OST - Bianco Hills
Super Mario Sunshine OST - Delfino Plaza
Hollow Knight OST - City of Tears
------NoCopyrightSounds
/ @nocopyrightsounds
Alan Walker - Fade
• Video
------Holfix
/ holfix
HolFix - Beyond The Kingdom
• [Free Music] HolFix - ...
------Kevin MacLeod
"Adventure Meme"
Kevin MacLeod incompetech.com
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons...
the entire argument about framing is really so smart, I can’t believe I hadn’t thought of that before
It's very smart and I agree with 99% of it, but it's missing the point that blue coins are still optional since you can complete the game without them. You can actually finish Super Mario Sunshine without collecting a single one! I do agree that it would be better if they weren't tied to shines, though, and I completely get the point Ceave is making for people who feel like completing a game means 100%ing it.
I appreciate the argument, but don't really agree about the point on framing them as optional or not. You don't need to collect every blue coin to beat the game because you don't need every shine to complete the game. If somebody wants to 100% the game, that presents itself as a different challenge. The fact about them not being obtainable in every mission though does degrade the experience of looking for the coins. I think that's honestly the biggest problem with it considering there's no way for the player to know if everything has been found in a level.
Ds man on a mario vid
You didn't think about it that way because it was never framed to you like that.
Mr. Pineapple what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be playing more off-brand dollar store Soulslikes?
I totally agree with you on this. Aside from Sunshine's linearity, the blue coin system cemented the fact that I'll never 100% this game. Have you heard of Super Mario Sunburn by any chance? It's a rom hack of Sunshine that actually fixes some of these issues (makes blue coins collectable in more acts, and removes the save prompts). So far it doesn't make the Blue coins add to the coin counter, but I believe Red Coins now add to the total. Shine sprites are also collectable in more than just their specific act as well, and makes it so you don't need to beat Shadow Mario in every world to beat the game, now you just need to collect 70 shines total for Corona Mountain to open. Doesn't entirely fix Sunshine, but It's definitely better.
The bit about Hollow Knight and gamefeel is good. I just have one small qualm with it.
Hollow Knight isn't actually being "unconventional" with it's momentary freeze. It's actually a pretty common animation trick unique to games. It's called "hitstop." The channel "Sugarpunch Design Works" has a good video on it, "A.B.I.torial: What Is Hitstop?," but the gist is that freezing an animation at the point of impact gives it a tactile sense of force. The longer the freeze, the bigger the impact feels.
It feels more pronounced in Hollow Knight for a few reasons. 1) The freeze length. For games that use it, most examples of hitstop are really short, a fraction of a second. That's why a lot of people don't notice it until it's pointed out. Hollow Knight's lasts a while. 2) Team Cherry use their excellent sound design and hitsparks to further highlight the hit. 3) It feels memorable in Hollow Knight because the player's physical attacks normally don't have any hitstop. It conditions players to expect hits to feel quick, and then breaks that conditioning. This actually reverses the normal trend of hitstop in games. Normally it's either "everyone's hits have hitstop" or "only the player character has hitstop." (So I guess you can say that it's unconventional here...)
This is mostly nitpicking/semantics. Just wanted to post this so that people are more aware of the trick being used in other contexts as well.
How did we survive all that time without thought provoking content like this? So glad you're back and so active!
I've been playing Super Mario Sunshine since I was 9 years old (currently 28 yrs old now), and to this day I still cannot find all the Blue Coins in my original 14 year old file! I always hated that there was no listing on how many I'm missing, yet I'm so close to 120 Shine Sprites! Also, I for one was never bothered in the slightest by the pause between coins.
I think another thing worth mentioning is how differently Sunshine uses shines from 64's stars. In Mario 64, you must collect a certain amount of stars to progress and beat the game, so no matter where it comes from, every star feels like progress toward a goal. In Sunshine, the number of shines you have is completely arbitrary. Progress is tied entirely to completing mission 7 of every world. Because of that, getting extra shines in Sunshine doesn't feel like making progress. The most you get out of it is slowly expanding the circle of sunlight in Delfino Plaza, but even then it becomes pretty much completely lit fairly early on. Even if you get all 120 shines the only reward is a different picture at the end of the credits, which you might not even notice.
With all that in mind I'd argue that the shine system in Sunshine is just as flawed as the blue coin system. I feel like they just did shine collecting because someone shrugged and went "Well that's what we did with Mario 64" without thinking about how to actually implement it in the game in a meaningful way.
*I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!!!!*
Please, never stop making content. You are amazing.
another problem with blue coins that was briefly touched upon that i want to note--part of why it's cool on paper is the potential for being a reward for how well you know the game's mechanics. the thing is, this only works if the conditions to get any given coin aren't *arbitrary.* for example, a coin you can only get with yoshi wherein you could kind of figure out where it is beforehand and go, "oh, i need yoshi to get this" is good! one that just randomly appears just because you happened to be playing a certain mission, however, well, that's tedious.
the point is, even if they're not *available,* they should always be *present* so that you can look at them and determine what you need and where you need it to get them. that's a lot more interesting imo
I love the Hollow Knight damage freeze because it's good i.pact and gives me a second to mentally adjust.
In Kirby's Return to Dreamland, whenever I shoot out of a cannon and hit something the game freezes for a moment. If there are a lot of enemies in a row and I hit them all the game stops every time. And I love it!
Well, that was unreasonably well thought out. Thank you for this.
Hey Ceave! Thanks for another great video! I loved the pace of the video-with the addition of the occasional face cam shot.
-just a happy viewer.
Thanks!
Honestly, you didn't manage to sell this idea to me until you brought up the perception of blue coins as "mandatory for completion", then everything just suddenly clicked.
Do 96 shines. That's what a lot of speedrunners do, it's actually really cool to watch
I believe the reason why the blue coins count for the shines is because they ran low on development time and wanted to include 120 shines.
Why was I so damn happy to see a Hollow Knight segment in this video? Ceave you somehow made my day with that and it scares me.
You forgot to mention how THERE’S NO COUNTER. This is one of the most baffling decisions. They didn’t even add one in All Stars when it would’ve been such an easy fix. Just have a x/30 counter or whatever for each stage, there’s no excuse not to
Thank you for your critism of thus beloved game i now see it in a different light and ypur arguments have been very useful to me as agames developer, i appreciate you spending your time to reconstruct this game in such a way, I would also enjoy if you could provide this type of content more regularly and thanks for seeing this comment in amounst the hundreds of thoisands of others, i am a big fan of your content and look forward to your next upload, have a good day or night
As a completionist I disagree. What's the point to a secret if you don't do all of them. I like how blue coins are in sunshine feeling kinda mandatory. I just wish the game told you easier ways to get them like a list of which episodes had which and how many you were missing not a guessing game until you find them all. This is one reason I hated korok seeds. I collected all of them. The game encourages collecting them and all I get is a piece of poop and people saying you aren't actually supposed to get them all. With blue coins you get actual shines and while the system itself could be improved I don't think it should be like botw at all.
I'm pretty sure the Korok Seeds do count to 100%, increasing the completion percent meter that I think appears on your map. And unlike the Blue Coins, which at least give you a Shine Sprite (still stupid), the extra Korok Seeds give you nothing until you get them all, after which you get a useless statue of poop. I could say the same about the picture catalog or whatever it's called, but not only are the pics and bio info that comes with them (as well as the ability to track some items down with the Sheikah Slate) a reward by themselves, but you get a better reward for completing the picture-dex than literal shit of 500 useless seeds that could've gone towards more inventory upgrades.
Mario:
*grabs blue coin*
“AH!!! THE COIN IS A LIE!”
I think a big problem with Blue Coins is not necessarily that they count toward 100%-ing the game, although for 100% playthroughs it certainly is, but that beating the game Any% isn't tied to a shine total, it's only tied to getting the 7th shine in each level. This means that only the first shine, and the first 7 shines in each level, minus the 1st shine in Bianco Hills, have any meaning. Every single other shine is completely pointless, including the blue coin shines. If Any% was tied to a shine total instead, that would make things much better because not only would the other shines actually have meaning, but the Blue Coins would be great because if the missions are too hard for you to get those last few shines you need, you can just cash in some Blue Coins for the remaining shines.
I don't think you're right about HK's damage-frame mechanic being there to "punish" the player. It's not long enough to really notice unless you're looking for it, more just there to give you more time to see what went wrong(as you said). Also, pausing the game like that helps to "sell the hit" with what feels like a huge jolt without actually moving anything.
I honestly didn't even notice this is Hollow Knight. NSMB wii always annoyed me with this, because it can kill you in co-op mode.
your content feels more mature than the last time i watched it
This video came just after deciding I was better off collecting 25 coins per level then search the rest through tutorials rather than start the tedious search by myself for the very reasons described in this video 👌🏻
In your 64 comparison, You also didn't mention that 64 gates progress by star count, while Sunshine just blatantly doesn't. You can collect any of the 70 required stars you like and beat 64, but in sunshine, you always have to do each mission 7 with shadow Mario, while the actual star count is useless. So the blue coins don't even progress your game!
5:19 Did my mans just use an Ultrakill sound-effect?
So I disagree with a lot in this video, but the big one: Hollow Knight's damage stun is a clear indicator you got hit but also doesn't interrupt the flow of the game. You know you've been hit, have a second to think "I should flee or fight.", and when it picks up you can either use this to attack or flee. It keeps you engaged, or at least for me it does because when you get hit you generally were not expecting it so having that moment to remember the attack and adjust is HUGE as when you get hit you panic and get hit again normally.
Blue coins also don't make Sunshine feel full, it makes it feels more empty.
Imagine you only had to do 7 shines of each stage, those coins do literally nothing for you except "let you" access stages earlier. Is collecting 10 of those worth most of the non-stage shines or bonus shines? The time and effort for no reward 9/10 times or a reward which is super easy?
Blue coins were, imo, the worst collectable in gaming aside from Eggs in Spyro 3 and Moons in Odyessy that end up devaluing actions because actions have no meaning. Reaching a ledge? Blue coin. Kick a rock? Blue coin? Fight a boss? 3 Blue Coins. Complete a 2 minute level? Blue coin. Climb this set piece tree, get a Korok. Climb this tree that looks the same 5 feet away? Another Korok. Now you're climbing every tree. Where is the excitement in finding the Coin, Moon, or Egg or even Korok? The coin is just a shine with more steps.
Even if they were for upgrades... because finding them requires X mission means you won't know if you got them all or not. In every regard they would hold you back, make you constantly feel like you're missing something... but if they fixed this and let you know then you'd either be overwhelmed or hunt them down each stage because you know they will make things much easier.
Blue Coins aren't just in a bad spot, they have no role in the practical game at all. They are too common to ignore but also so worthless that you don't want them yet the game makes a huge deal when you collect them so you want them yet obscure enough that they are unfair at the same time.
It is a mess.
Kind of like this essay.
Yes. This is why I hate the blue coins. If you have to find every hidden mcguffin, it's not fun anymore. It becomes less painful with a strategy guide, and perhaps even more fun. If cheating is more fun than not cheating, you know the system is bad, but running around for hours looking for a tiny thing you missed somewhere is a whole lot more awful than going after the blue coins like you're running errands. But neither are fun, so if I play again I'm just gonna beat Bowser and quit.
Blue Coins. I like them and hate them at the same time. I like them because it rewards you for going off the beaten path and exploring the levels and when you find them you get that sense of accomplishment. At the same time I don't like them because they can sometimes be vague with where they are and some Blue Coins are only available if you select certain missions. Overall they are an okay implementation but they aren't perfect and are flawed.
Take a shot every time he says “blue” or “coin”
Aren't blue coins being tied to stars essentially the same thing that moons are in Odyssey? Obviously there are significantly more moons in Odyssey than blue coins in Sunshine, but I feel like they are basically equivalent. There are some moons that are tied to story, and some tied to exploration, and yet more tied to challenges. In a very similar light, some shines are tied to story, while the blue coins (also shines) are tied to exploration and challenges.
It's blue for a reason clearly then... if it makes you sad and it is sad about never getting to be a real coin (Pinocchio reference) then it deserves it's blue (sad, ghostly, dead) colour
The blue coins are objectively the best game mechanic created, they are punishment for people who 100% games to break them of the habit. I never picked up this nasty habit, but I would've spent like 3 times thge amount of time I've spenton videogames, and I've spent a LOT of time on videogames; and there is such a thing as diminsighing returns, usually by the time I beat the final boss I'm done. the blue coins are like that drug you can take if you are an alcoholic, where if you drink while you take the medicine the positive effects of the alcohol are blocked and you just feel absolutely terrible
I feel like even if the blue coins were used for something less crucial than Shine Sprites, at least some portion of players still would have felt compelled to find them all and been very irritated at how some are arbitrarily restricted to certain missions. For that portion of players I feel like the only fix is to either include a count of how many blue coins you have left to find in each mission, or make all coins available in all missions (except for maybe if a mission has its own secret area). Then it becomes attainable without too much frustration or looking up a guide online...
I think the shines arent the issue. I think the issue is that, to get all, you have to find all blue coins.
There is a frying pan back there.
The reason why Corona Mountain is called... That... Is because Corona means light, Light Mountain is fitting for a Volcano
He probably is aware that it has a meaning, but still. In context of the present, it is indeed unfortunately named. XD
Now everyone knows what it feels like to be a completion is, like me! Wait, what? It's completionist, autocorrect!
Also I'm in the middle of 100 percentile-AUTOCORRECT IT'S PERCENTING!!!
...As I was saying, I'm in the middle of 100 percenting breath of the wild.
SO MANY KOOKS.... I mentioned to say KOROKS! WHY AUTOCORRECT?! NO, IT'S WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AUTOCORRECT
Autocorrect is so dumb....
I actually found all the blue coins pretty easily but I can't say that I got every sunshine sprite some of them were just too challenging or I lost interest but I found the coins to always be fun
Sometimes I would restart the game just to collect the blue coins because they were fun to collect
God ive never seen ceave before. And im honestly not disappointed
Honestly, a simple Blue Coin counter over the title of each level that tells you how many coins you still have to find for each shine would make the system much less rage inducing
I know it's not episode specific, but you can see how many blue coins for each level you've collected on the totals map/screen. There are 30 per level.
Yes this would be great or even hints in the levels themselves over a certain period of time of not doing anything it'll point out one location to look around for one.
You just described something that actually does exist in the game. Was this sarcasm?
@@Vampibatmanodactyle for each world but not every stage. Some coins are stage specific
This idea ocurred to me while he was at that part too, but I still dislike it because it would require you exploring the same areas multiple times.
I think they screwed up by designing the level loop the way they did (ending a level on shine collect I mean), mario odyssey did the idea much better by initially having objectives that guide you through the stage, then opening up the level.
Ceave: "This video is an unusually difficult sell"
Me: Already sold
It's hard to sell because it costs blue coins XD
"You son of a fuzzy, I'm in!"
I was sold from the title alone. lol
Me: "Nah, it's actually surprisingly simple..."
Framing has almost exactly the same result as naming. People started calling the african "Wild Dogs" "Painted Dogs" which raised awareness of the decreasing population. Wild sounds scary, Painted sounds cute.
The Patagonian Toothfish is another example. When sold as food, it's almost always referred to as "Chilean Sea Bass" since the name sounds more appealing to eat
a somewhat sillier example of this is the difference between water, h2o, and dihydrogen monoxide/DHMO.
they all mean exactly the same thing (dihydrogen monoxide and h2o both describe the chemical composition of water, even), but they come with different connotations - water is just water, most people know more or less what h2o means (though it's a bit pretentious to use in a casual context), but dihydrogen monoxide and DHMO are names that're rarely used, so they're less recognizable at a glance.
they make it sound like a Scary Mysterious Chemical, and are often used alongside misleadingly worded (but technically true) facts about water, mostly as a joke, but also as a convenient way to demonstrate how easy it can be to mislead people, even with information that's technically true, and a way to poke fun at how scared many people can be of any chemical name that sounds just a little too spooky.
@@mozarteanchaos
Don’t forget hydroxyl acid, a major component of acid rain!
@@bhull242 that's actually an example i haven't come across before, thanks!
@@bhull242 I hear it's a major component of many common cleaning solutions, is a universal solvent, but is used as an additive in many commercially manufactured foods!
This channel has become:
So I was working on something else and then I started talking about one thing too much and it became its own video.
First it was the Cat Suit, then Tanks, and now this.
And I love it.
This is top tier content fs
this is justgoing off on tangents the channel and as a tanget goer, i like it
These format types are my favorite along with the "playthrough without doing x"
also here's a rant about political framing
@Johannes Maclean because ceave is your frying pan daddy
I just want to mention the seashells in Link's Awakening.
Once you have collected enough, all of them disappear, so even an OCD completionist won't need to check every single bush and tree in the game.
Felt good.
The fact that you mentioned OCD....
As someone with OCD, that sounds amazing
Was it also like that in the remastered version?
I don't think you know what OCD means-it's not an adjective-but otherwise, solid point.
@@callmeobsequious Most people who claim to have it online don't have a clue what kind of horrible sickness this actually is. They think they have it because they are mildly bothered by a blank spot on a map or something.
I feel like the purple coins in Odyssey were actually the direct solution here too! It rewards you with a fully separate kind of item, even if they can still be difficult to find. Also a counter knowing where they're missing is a really key part missing from the system! Great vid!
Edit: Over 1k likes - that's awesome! I actually have a Nintendo channel with weekly content if you're looking for some more Nintendo vids to watch! I've just always loved Ceave's content too.
Sadly that game is utter trash, oh well
I missed 1 in the Luncheon Kingdom, and spent a week trying to find it.
@@aturchomicz821 before anyone says anything, remember subjectivity is a thing
@@moodle6500 it is a thing but if you’re gonna say a game is bad at least do it with respect, that’s why I believe his comment is trash, as it’s disrespectful and doesn’t provide any kind of reason or discussion topic to continue, he’s just slamming his opinion waiting for someone to reply...
@@moodle6500 yeah but its indefensiable seing it has 90+ on Metacritic like wtf??
"Blue coins don't add to the coin counter!"
Purple coins: *sweats*
At least the Purple coins have another counter right next to them that you can see at any time, and they still make cool sound effects and come in an interesting variety of shapes.
@@kaleenar963
I mean, Blue Coins also have a counter, but yeah.
@@bhull242 The thing is that you have to collect one to see it.
Atleast blue coins can restore your life unlike purples
Ceave talks about ugly coins for 16 minutes straight.
Content
Countaint
You mean “coin”tent
Don’t you mean shiny but deadly coins
@@schmoop3660 they aren’t shiny
Pretty much the type of video that got me watching his channel.
"Collecting all the Korok seeds is optional
"
*SmallAnt has left the chat*
I can listen to you speak on camera. I can say “yes, that’s Ceave, that’s his face, he is speaking.” And then as soon as you’re offscreen I immediately stop believing that face and that voice go together. I think it’s because you sound like a well dressed foreign arms dealer, rather than a guy in a Mario themed normal room.
Yeah
I mean, he could be a polite foreign arms dealer with one normal Mario themed room.
Ceave's day job is at Steyr, clearly.
Basically, yes. I can see the face. But the voice and that face stop working the moment I can't see.
I think it's also because the change in audio quality kind of makes the transitions really harsh.
One thing I always thought that would have made the system 100x better with just a small change is just telling us how many of the coins we have collected out of how many available in each chapter rather than only sorting them by stage.
When Hollow Knight music started playing I thought I had somehow clicked on the wrong video. I'm glad I was wrong, Hollow Knight is amazing!
The Hollow Knight part came right after an ad break for me. Which confused me to no end.
Same!
@@MichaelHeide Yeah, i thought the video ended and I had autoplay on
When he talked about being able to always see what hit you I thought about radiance and her stupid bright yellow background with bright yellow attacks
@@WaluigiisthekingASmith Exactly! I've been trying to do PoH charmless and Absrad is driving me insane.
I think Odyssey's moons felt about as satisfying to get as Sunshine's blue coins, which is why I wish Odyssey had a system like blue coins for those easier "mini-challenge" moons.
Yeah I felt like I was the one person who didn’t like Odyssey. The missions just weren’t satisfying.
Key difference is that Odyssey keeps track of the ones collected by giving every Moon a name as a hint. Also you can inquire the names of 3 hidden moons in advance, making it even easier to find them. Only for a handful moons of all the the 880 did I actually have to look up a guide.
Also the reward for getting all 880 unique moons and 999 moons in total is miniscule like in Sunshine. However unlike Sunshine there's another post-game goal after the main game other than 100%ing the game: Darker Side of the moon, which requires 500 moons to reach. Meaning even if you don't wanna go for all moons it still makes sense to collect more moons than required whereas in Sunshine the blue coins as well as *every single shine sprite* outside of missions 1-7 of each level are completely pointless to collect if you aren't going for 100%: you either grab the assigned 50 shines for the regular ending or all 120 for the 100% ending. Anything between that is unnecessary. This last fact is what makes Super Mario Sunshine the most frustrating Mario game to date for me.
You mean the purple coins? Lol
Pausing the game to emphasize hits on the player or enemies is actually a pretty common tool to enhance game feel. Hollow Knight just draws way more attention to the technique than most games by drawing it out longer and adding lots of visual effects.
I would think pausing when taking damage isn't just a punishment, but gives you a second to process your mistake, and to figure out how to recover. Sort of a mercy at the same time.
@@Revenge-fm9tt In hollow knight I agree. In most games however I would say the time frame is too short to really be significant when it comes to deciding your next couple moves.
Funny it's being used against Sunshine, since Mario was the series that made it a staple in the first place.
@@zeeteepippi275 I haven't played Sunshine, but in all the other 3D Mario games that hasn't been a thing so I doubt it's a thing there.
@@dusklunistheumbreon It's been a thing ever sinse Super Mario Bros. on the NES.
What I disliked about the blue coin system in particular is that due to the episodic nature of Mario Sunshine's mission and the player only really needing to complete the 7th mission in every level to unlock the access to Corona mountain, blue coins are completely pointless to collect if you're not going for 100%. In Super Mario 64 every single of the 70 stars you need to collect to complete the game matters, in Sunshine only 7 shines really matter.
“You see, I play both sides, so I always come out on top.”
Well yes, but actually no.
Tbh he seems more like a bottom judging by his voice.
Lol where did THAT come from?
@@ankergutten3428 top? Bottom?
bi_irl
A Hat in Time did this really well. There is a similar system to the blue coins in Sunshine called "Rift Coins" in the game, and they are basically the same exact thing. You explore around the levels, and then sometimes you come across rift tokens. You put 3 of them into a machine to unlock a cosmetic for the Hat Kid, and they are completely optional yet really fun to collect.
and nearly every cosmetic item obtained from the machine is really cute or good, and the variety is awesome. skins for hat kid and her hats, and even music remixes of levels iirc. plus rolling the machine felt really satisfying. im having trouble waiting for gears for breakfast to announce a new game honestly
The regional coins in Odyssey were definitely these but done right, they unlock completely optional things and are more satisfying to collect
Odyssey blows though
@@TheOmegaGamer ok but i don’t remember asking
@@seanyproductions you have the right to share your opinion and so do I
@@TheOmegaGamer yeah odyssey was like if sunshine had no stars and Only blue coins
@@blake..- exactly, Odyssey is one of the worst 3D platformer I ever played, the Moons feel so weak to collect compared to Stars and Shines, they are unsatisfying as hell
Instead of not rewarding shines for blue coins, I would argue that reducing the number of blue coins required for a single shine, while maintaining the 120 shine max would solve the problem.
For example, let's say shines only cost 5 blue coins. Now only half of all blue coins are required to 100% the game, and the player will still be required to do some extra exploration to 100% the game
Maybe add an extra reward (maybe an outfit for mario or maybe some optional challenge levels with no shine at the end) for collecting all the blue coins
Is this wobbles from melee?
Honestly that's a great idea.
They probably would have done that if given more time to complete the game
But then you STILL haven't completed the game!
Additionally the game would indicate after collecting half of the blue coins that now every other coin is optional and doesn't give you shines anymore. Like maybe they turn purple and give you 3 one ups each or something. Also there's gotta be a way to keep track of the blue ones you collected whereas the remaining ones do not count towards the 100% progression.
"Super Mario Sunshine's Blue Coins are great, and that's why I Hate them."
Ah yes, the floor here is made of roof...
When you live on the second floor
@@Nat1CreativityCheck You hear the Illuminati theme from the distance...
@@ΓιώταΚαλλίγερου it's not called the "illuminati" theme, it's the x files intro.
On Isle Delfino, it really is.
@@Ghorda9 Right, my bad.
The other frustrating thing about the blue coins being part of the Shine system is they aren’t shines (nor are any of the optional shines ) that can help you unlock the final boss. The only requirement for the final boss in sunshine is beating episode 7 in all the stages. Unlike in Mario 64 where any 70 stars can unlock the stair case
"Ceave gaming is such a good channel, thats why i (i dont actually) hate it"
that title tho lmao
hmm??
@@aturchomicz821 he’s making a parody of the title but he is specifying that he’s joking and really likes Ceave
Yeah, the title's like, "Bipolar much?"
Hello Memenade videos commenter! I see your journey of commenting in several videos around the internet has started! How's it going?
@@smolse6854 its been nice. Im trying to be a Justin Y Type person
Using blue coins to get expansions to Fludd's water capacity would've been so much better!
I actually remember seeing Blue Coins off in the far distance and sometimes thinking "well I can either go out of my way to get it now or I'll need to go even further out of my way to get it later", they just didn't seem exciting enough. It makes so much sense now that you explain it, that it was because they were tied to the main objective.
I love how Ceave is kind of becoming the "GameMakersToolkit" of Nintendo games
From Hollow Knight to politics and gambling. Just what I expect in my Mario videos. Subscribed
The idea of framing in-game systems is really well put. I also think it heavily applies to Korok Seeds in Breath of the Wild. Lots of people hate them because it's unreasonable and tedious to hunt down all 900 in the game, but I don't think they were ever supposed to be completely collected by anyone but the most hardcore collectors and completionists. Unlike Blue Coins in Sunshine, you only need roughly half of the total Korok Seeds in the game to get all of the benefits--fully increasing your weapon inventories. Sure, you get the golden poop after collecting all of them, but this is nothing more than a trophy, having absolutely no gameplay function. I think where Breath of the Wild fails with Korok Seeds, is that it doesn't properly communicate that you aren't ever intended to collect them all, which wouldn't take more than a little bit of nudging toward the player when the system is introduced by Hestu.
It's true that the game could've atleast told you that you only need to collect some of them and that there's no useful reward for collecting them all. But I mean the golden poop is symbolic enough that the game is making fun of you for even going that far.
At a certain point though, Hestu stops giving you inventory upgrades. After that, it becomes pretty obvious that there's no point in collecting all of the seeds.
@@AbruptAvalanche well it doesn't specifically tell you that there's no useful reward for collecting them all, and considering you get a new outfit upon completing all shrines it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe there's a special reward for collecting them all
@@solidzack Every shrine rewards you with a useful spirit orb though, so there's always the incentive to find more, even if the outfit didn't exist. Hestu stops incentivizing you to collect more seeds after you're done with upgrades. The shrines are easier to find, easier to keep track of, and there's a reasonable number of them vs the hundreds and hundreds of seeds. The game also gives you a way to track down shrines with the shrine locator radar, but no such locator (pre-DLC at least) for the seeds. Given all of that, I think it would be crazy to think the game actually expects you to find all of the seeds.
@@AbruptAvalanche it would be completely unreasonable to expect the players to find all blue coins that are spread throughout all the different missions in Super Mario Sunshine, and yet here we are. Especially because in Sunshine Shines essentially don't matter. The condition to unlock the final level is beating Shadow Mario in all levels, which requires you to get shine 1-6 of that level in that order, meaning that all other shines are pointless, including the blue coin shines, unless you wanna get all shines, in which case you gotta collect all blue coins. Some game devs are simply that crazy.
Honestly, I'd rather collect all Korok seeds than all blue coins in Sunshine.
Ceave: "There are a total of 30 coins..."
Dislike count: 30
* the coins have disliked the video *
But there are 240 blue coins...
this comment has 30 likes currently... I guess the coins admit they did it.
dislike count: 60
* the coins are starting to learn how to make sockpuppets *
Now Pi has.
Theyre learning how to multiply
9:46 "on paper" then you remember the current state of Paper Mario and it all makes a little bit more sense
Wow, I felt the same thing when picking up blue coins. I started avoiding them because I hated having to manually save every time.
Alternate Title: Shiny, yet deadly coins
Nicobbq reference?
It’s a Ceave refence. I think it started with the first Mario Maker no coins video
@@mr.tapman8685 okay it's problably a ceave reference
Shiny, blue looking yet deadly coins.
Shiny yet deadly (blue) coins
Alright, time to get critical.
This video falls very flat due to the incredibly inconsistent and unfair expectations and comparisons Ceave puts the coins up to throughout. The biggest issue is how he sees these blue coins and the associated shines as "mandatory," and states as much several times throughout the video. The issue is, these collectibles *are* entirely optional, and don't even count for progress towards getting to the game's ending. The only thing making them "mandatory" is Ceave's own desire to 100% the game. This would be a fine criticism of the game from a completionist point of view, but the issue is that he clearly isn't looking at it that way. A good example is how he proposes a better use for the coins would be to use them to purchase water capacity upgrades for FLUDD -- but this same solution would still be an optional but permanent upgrade that would still be "mandatory" for the sake of completion. It's a fun idea, but it doesn't even address the issue it claims to solve.
I also take issue with Ceave's argument about "framing," especially in the way he compares it to other games with similar mechanics. One is how he compares the blue coin shines to the moons in Odyssey -- which in the case of the more superfluous moons, are admittedly very similar to blue coins in both frequency and placement. He compares them explicitly to show how these optional collectibles for Odyssey are more motivating and fulfilling for him than Sunshine's blue coins, using the final Star/Shine count of a typical playthrough of each game (and Mario 64) to do so. Yet in that same comparison, he admits to typically only collecting around 500 moons in an Odyssey playthrough, rather than the full 880 unique moons. So why is it that for Sunshine these uncollected collectibles are "tedious," yet somehow Odyssey's compared collectibles -- that he also didn't bother to collect -- aren't, to the point to where they're being used as the 'good example' to juxtapose the blue coins against?
And lastly for the poor comparisons, Ceave uses Korok seeds from BotW. The issue is he praises Korok seeds for not having a total counter which would drive you to collect all of them -- *something which he criticizes blue coins for.* And on top of this, he praises Korok seeds for giving you your final reward well before you reach the maximum for the same stated reason of not encouraging tedium, yet Mario Sunshine does this exact thing by opening up Corona Mountain at a minimum of 50 Shines. Once again, we have comparable collectibles in both games, both being non-talleyed optional collectibles sprinkled throughout the game in order to reward exploration and investigation. Yet one is praised while the other is jeered, seemingly for entirely arbitrary reasons.
All three collectibles -- Moons, Korok Seeds, and Blue Coins -- are all treated and _framed_ the exact same way by their respective games, it is the way Ceave treats them that is the maladaptive source of all complaints in this video.
You said this way better than me, so thank you! The inconsistency in his argument was honestly driving me nuts.
In order to 100% Sunshine, you need 96 mission-based Shines & 24 blue-coin based Shines.
In order to 100% Odyssey, you need 880 mission-based Moons, 119 bought Moons, all Regional coins, all outfits, all souvenirs, all captures, all music and all checkpoints.
In order to 100% Breath of the Wild, you need 4 Divine Beasts, 120 Shrines/Spirit Orbs, 900 Korok Seeds, 226 Location discoveries, all memories, all compendium entries, all Shiekah towers, all quests, all skills, all armour sets and upgrades, all Medals of Honour, all horse bridles and saddles, all treasure chests, and all torchlights.
So remind me how exactly Super Mario Sunshine comes out looking bad in this comparison?
You missed the point in the Odyssey part, 500 moons are the ones that are required to get to the final challenge that darker side is, the other 380 do nothing, and that's the point
I really like how Splatoon deals with collectibles, how they give you info on the lore but don’t do anything
Yeah, and how the purple coins are used in Odyssey - Optional cosmetics, a small percentage of which are needed to get moons.
@@Stephen-Fox and the ones used to get moons are fine because people who don’t get every purple coin are gonna buy the clothes first anyway.
If you don't have 16 minutes to spare: "getting to collect coins is fun" "having to collect coins is not fun"
Bravo, 5 stars on that top-notch monkey brain translation of the last 16+ minutes of my life.
I find it extremely irritating that you never collect the underwater blue coin
To this day my Super Mario Sunshine save sits at an aggravating 119 shines because of some blue coin in Noki Bay
Yeah, that's gonna bother some people's OCDs. :/
TheAccountification
But you’re not expected to find all blue coins, either. Just like BotW and Odyssey, there is no major reward for 100%ing the game. Everyone complains about the unlocks being lame in Sunshine, but that’s exactly the point. Much like the rewards for completing seeds in BotW and Moons in Odyssey, the rewards in Sunshine are insignificant because the blue coin collection isn’t supposed to be completed. It’s literally the same principle.
Blue coins are needed to get all shines to 100% the game, but all you get for 100%ing the game is a post card and a useless cosmetic, much like what you proposed to improve the blue coin system. The game already does what you’ve said. And tying blue coins to upgrades like a bigger water meter or more health would actually have the opposite effect, because that just feels like more essential content than what’s already offered.
Sunshine essentially did what BotW and Odyssey are praised for, 20 years ago.
You love hollow knight too? You have amazing taste in so many games ❤️
You are everywhere
Hi again
Hell yeah
Hollow Knight is Pog, i replay it currently and i SUFFER cause Pantheon
@@catzzen2014 ouch same
Ceave video: *exists*
Everyone: "Hoo-ray!"
Hoo-ray!
1:41
If u aren’t Hoo-Ray gang y r hear bro
I was watching, then 5:20 happened, and now i am the happiest seal alive
Me too, I never expected Hollow Knight to be in this video and I’m so happy that it is
I did feel my face twitching a little at the mention of "beating the game" as the same action as "100%ing" it. You've beaten the game when you collect enough Shines to beat Bowser and finish the story. Getting all 120 Shines is distinctly not the objective of the game or its story. It is optional content for completionists, and so are the Blue Coins. The Blue Coins are not mandatory content in Sunshine. In fact, they're only mandatory if you've already decided to complete another larger optional task
I completely agree. As a completionist botw was absolutely terrible and unfulfilling getting all the koroks. I just 100% sunshine today for the first time and it was fulfilling and fun. Can't believe his solution was to make it less of a "big deal" and even relate to one of the worst completion experiences I've ever had in gaming being botw.
It wouldn't be in the game as a secret and encourages you to get them if they didn't want you to collect them. Everytime I bought a shine with blue coins it felt rewarding. Botw only gives you crap.
@@AndroidHarris I feel like Nintendo didn't expect or want people to finish the game, of course some people are going to but let's look at some of the things they did.
.Put 900 koroks each qith their own puzzle with no conceivable way of finding them on your own even with the dlc korok mask
.Put 120 around the map although these are definitely more advertised with ways to track them
.Max every single set of armor which needs basically everything in the game
.Doing every sidequest which means finding every quest npc and complete all their tasks like collecting a whole bunch of different weapons
.Giving absolutely nothing from 100%ing the game, not even a picture with thank you on it
I also feel like trying to 100 percent botw is a bad way to play the game since it feels like it goes against the game's main goodpoints.
@@arandominternetuser4507 it shouldn't be in the game if they didn't want you to finish it.
I play games mostly for an amazing ending not necessarily the beggining. I dont understand how completing botw goes against games main goodpoints is it because they dropped the ball on everything that isn't the main thing. I'm also in progress to 100% skyrim right now. Are open world games just not supposed to be completed and if so should I avoid these types of games mostly as a completionist?
@@arandominternetuser4507 a game series I love completing is the kirby series as usually they have the best rewards. Not only is there a cutscene most of the time but there is also brand new bosses. Like getting all the rainbow drops in dreamland 2 allows you to fight dark matter which is a tough boss that brings the ending so much more epic. As well as games like super star ultra, triple deluxe, and return to dreamland having new bosses in the true arena. Whether it be new forms like Marx soul or sectonia soul or even bosses from the ex mode HRD3 boss. Kirby usually gives great incentives for completion. There are a couple exceptions but my favorite was the true arena in planet robobot remaking a classic fight as the final boss as well as making it entirely new based on the story and new movesets. Kirby also has rewards like squeak squad ghost ability being able to possess and control any enemy after completing all the ghost medals. A fun addition that adds so much fun yet isn't crazy. If botw gave something like the bike for completing everything that would be on the level of some kirby rewards.
So I think all games should take the time to give that fun or epic reward if you complete it like kirby does.
Just imagine completing botw and getting a new rune that you can just have and play with or after you do all sidequests, areas, and korok seeds you can fight a nightmare version of ganon like the other dream fights but he has a new phase after dark beast and with entirely new moveset. That would be fun or epic completion rewards.
@@AndroidHarris I feel like completing a game this big isn't very fun especially with the lack of reward although I don't know much about skyrim so I can't comment much about that also, in my opinion exploration is Botw biggest strongsuit and if your hunting for something like koroks I don't think you'll much of anything new since you've probably already seen a lot of what the game has to offer. Doing 100% of an open world is definitely not for the faint of heart.
"Political communication theory" - Three words I wasn't expecting to hear when I clicked this video.
But you pretty much summed up all but one of my problems with the blue coins in Sunshine, as well as why I never got all 120 shines in this game.
The only other thing I don't like is that, despite being "required", there's no way in-game to see how many blue coins are remaining on a stage, so if you're not keeping count of how many blue coins you've collected in each stage from the moment you start the game, you have to search every shine in every level to try to find where you've missed them. There's no way to know if you're searching in the wrong level, or if you've just missed the blue coin tucked away in a corner somewhere.
@@Chad_Eldridge Except that there are waaaay more than needed. There are so much, one doesnt have to actively korok hunt to reach something between 300 to 600 in a casual playthrough. With DLC it gets even easier thanks to Korok mask (this should have been the last reward at 450 in the base game in my opinion).
Actually I'm pretty sure there is a way to know if you collected all the Coins in a world, but not per level. So you should be able to see that you have all the coins in Pinna Park on the map, but the one your missing in Serena Beach could be in any of its levels for example. Either the counter is on the map screen (there is a secondary screen on the map that keeps a counter of all the shine sprites you've collected), or its on the level select itself. But its been a long time since I last played so maybe I'm wrong.
But there is a way to see your missing blue coins. You can't see which mission you need to enter, but you can see your count for each level. Use the map while in the plaza. I'm 95% sure the map was in the original too and not just 3D All-Stars.
You can press Z to open the shine menu and see all the shines you've collected in each stage in addition to your coin reward (with matching shine where appropriate) and blue coin total.
to be fair they did prove they learned their lesson with this with how they handled the same coin mechanic in odyssey
Not really. Blue coins are more comparable to the numerous superfluous and non-story required moons scattered throughout Odyssey in both frequency and placement.
The issue with this video is that blue coins *are* entirely optional, yet Ceave consistently treats them as mandatory throughout the video for completely arbitrary reasons. Its funny that he compares Shines to Moons in Odyssey, only to reveal that he typically only collects 500 moons in an Odyssey playthrough instead of the full 880. So, for one of these games fun, optional collectibles to reward exploration are fine -- even if they don't make you compelled to collect every single one -- yet for the other game its suddenly a problem? Its completely inconsistent logic.
@@BaronSterling While not every moon is a home run, most are unique and all contribute towards getting to the next kingdom. The biggest exception being the ones from Toadette.
Every blue coin feels like a repetitive chore. There are only a handful of different challenges to get them yet there are 240 of these things? you could literally scour the whole game looking for the last coin and it's just not fun
1:06 when you are a doom fan but your channel is family friendly
Thanks for the likes guys
Ceave: *mentions Hollow Kinght*
Me: *immediately freaks out, and starts very intensely jamming to the calm music*
Y e s
Naturally
Amazing how almost every single flaw of the blue coins is fixed with Odyssey's purple equivalent.
Looks like Nintendo realized what went wrong and made a point of fixing it in future games.
I love his face when he says lets do this
It's interesting that the blue coin design philosophy clearly evolved into the way moons are handled in Mario Odyssey- they solved a lot of the problems by making the smaller collectables feed the same pool as the primary ones, everything is Moons. And they're still able to tell a story over the course of a level and collecting it's major Moons while still hiding other Moons in smaller puzzles or as exploration rewards too. Mario Sunshine may not be everyone's favorite Mario game, but it was important in terms of the design evolution of the series.
Oh hey, funny seeing you here from a year ago!
"they are brilliant. i also hate this system." i laughed so hard
School: Here are 240 homework exercises and they are mandatory
Sunshine: Here are 240 blue coins and they are mandatory
I would rather collect the blue coins XD
Some of the best teachers I ever had sometimes gave options regarding homework. For example, here's 15 problems, do at least 10, with a chance for (albeit reduced) extra credit.
@@racoonwhocannotbekilled9999 At least the homework usually tells you where the problems are.
@@zeeteepippi275 searching for them is half the fun tho?
My maths teacher would lets us do atleast 2 problems out of 5, and still write in her paper that we did the homework.
“BLUE COIN SHMOO COIN!!!”
-Arin “Video Game Boy” Hanson from Game Grumps
I can FEEL the conflicting emotions of Ceave “without touching a coin” Gaming
"Blue coins are basically mandatory and not optional, unlike other obscure collectables."
That sums it ALL up.
They are literally optional, though. 100%ing a game is a natural impulse for many people, including myself, but it in no way can be framed as the “goal of the game.” A vast majority of people who play the game will not reach 100% even if they try to get there, and that’s absolutely okay.
@@hb-robo He makes the accurate comparison, however, with Mario Odyssey; The Moons are "100%" and the goal of the game. Coins, however are not. Coins are only used to buy clothing, barring the single moons you can buy to pad out your supply, which are a paltry 100 coins which you'll collect by accident. This goes even for the special coins which are more hidden in the stages. If the game required you to get to 100% completion by collecting all the "local" coins, and those local coins mad the game "freeze" when you collect one to save it, then those coins would be seen as a blight on the game ass well.
@@hb-robo Your shines are the main collectibles of the game. Sure, you could intentionnally ignore every single blue coins and only get shines from the main mission, but that's not fun.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 it's not fun *to you*. Mario games are always built for a huge range of age demographics, moreso than basically any series on earth- they have to be both beginner friendly and challenging in the endgame. 90%+ of players land somewhere in the middle of 100%ing the game and dropping it, that's why Corona Mountain opens so early. there is zero rational framing where blue coins can be considered "mandatory." they are an optional additional treasure hunt for people who want to explore every nook and cranny.
I'm saying this as someone who 100%s every game I can, they are filler tasks for people who want a challenge, that's it. making them convert to shines was probably a bad idea but it's the same result either way.
@@hb-robo Being optional does not excuse poor design. Remember that one man's "optional" is another man's "mandatory"; especially when the game strongly encourages you to collect blue coins from the very beginning and offers a reward for fully completing the game.
EVERY OUNCE of a game's content should be engaging if the player is meant to play through it at some point. If that can't be achieved, you're better off discarding the bad ideas entirely such that players are not misled into doing something that will only cause them misery.
This isn't even mentioning the fact that Shines are almost entirely useless in Sunshine. All that really matters is that you do all the Shadow Mario missions.
Great video by the way.
Completely agree. *There are literally 2 small changes* that would make Sunshine *way* more enjoyable. If the shines needed changed from "beat the shadow mario level" to "you have gotten this many shines", the satisfaction of getting a shine would actually exist.
· Areas with linear Episodes would still have their small stories while simultaneously rewarding you for each shines worth of progress in them
· Episode 8 / Side Shines would actually be valuable
· Blue Coins would directly reward you for completing their challenges
·You have options in case some shines feel unenjoyable
That's just from changing that *one* small thing. The other thing would just be blue coins. I don't mind how they work, the only change it needs is a Total Counter on each area + a display on each episode showing how many are available in that specific episode (preferably visible after completing episode 8, which would reward collecting every main shine in an area). Also making them auto save without a pause like in Odyssey.
Then there, from those small changes Sunshine went from being my least to most favorite 3D Mario
@@lexitik7556 To my knowledge the game never states that Episode 7 completion in every level is the trigger for Corona Mountain, it's just known. So the problem you have with that reducing the value of each Shine would have absolutely no effect to anybody playing the game completely blind for the first time.
@@lexitik7556 It should be "beat Shadow Mario levels + collect X shines". It would make no sense defeating Bowser and say, never triggering the Mecha Bowser fight.
That idea of letting players know that they don't expect or even don't want their players to collect or do everything is really pertinent to a lot of different things in different games.
Odyssey is a great example, there's like 6 different places in the game where you could be completely satisfied and feel comfortable not going any further.
I think that if the blue coins are necesary, adding a counter for them at the start of each shine sprite mission would really help a lot
The framing part is exactly the problem I've always had with them. It always feels like I HAVE to get them all to "complete" the game, and this is made frustrating when certain coins only appear during specific shines, which means if you happen to be missing some, you're almost definitely going to just be pulling up an online guide and scrolling through all 100+ of them to figure out which ones you're missing.
I have a somewhat similar issue with the 100 coin shines in sunshine specifically, because in some levels, it feels like there's only BARELY enough coins to get you there, with a lot of them disappearing WAY TOO QUICKLY after they pop out from an enemy or, say, a watermelon. It's annoying when you spend so long gathering up coins, only to realize you're screwed and have to restart the level or choose a different shine that has more coins spawning.
"my humble dominion"
Honeyyy, Ceave did it again!
Many of these issues have been fixed in Mario Sunburn, such as removing the save prompt after collecting a blue coin and being able to collect shines in any order. (Plus a lot of other quality of life improvements such as skipable cut scenes and not being booted out after collecting a shine, just to name a few). After playing Sunburn, I could never go back to vanilla Sunshine ever again.
Wow, there are 2 HUGE HUGE HUGE points you missed that I'm surprised you didn't touch on:
*1.)* While you did mention they are mandatory for a 100% run.
What you failed to mention is that they are COMPLETELY useless/purposeless in a vanilla/any% run.
The only progressive content is the first 7 shines in a world. Anything else servers NO purpose unless you are going for a 100%. Most players only ever care to beat the game, not 100% it. That means, for most players, these blue coins serve ABSOLUTELY no purpose what so ever, just like gold birds. . . which brings me to the second point:
*2.)* Blue birds and how the game gives you no signs that you need to spray them. I think this one single peice kinda is a metaphor for ANOTHER huge problem that Mario Sunshine has, there are alot of little things that the game doesn't teach you is a thing but you might not discover naturally. I'd LOVE to see you do a video on that. Spraying birds, sure, but there are so many other things that I bet you can look back on and be like "yeah, this was poor implementation that gave no subtle hints to the player that this is what they had to do or that X is a mechanic in a game and the game gives you no way of knowing that naturally unless discovered by sheer chance/quiescence/accident".
I don't know about the gold birds or other things like that. It feel good to be rewarded for experimenting. When I played the game I manage to get 118 shines. I was just missing 18 blue coins (and at the time there was not much internet soluce to help) I my opinion the main trouble with thoses coins was not knowing in which level I could find the last ones.
@@cepahreinholt8710 Except. . . you AREN'T rewarded. Shines represent progress in the game, that's the only thing they offer. . . only they actually don't even offer that as they DON'T give you progress in the base game (not referring to 100%, base game, in this case meaning JUST main story/campaign rather than post-game), they give you literally nothing of value.
@@Hadeks_Marow well some worlds needs a certain amount of shines to be open up so finding hidden shines are like shortcuts to thoses levels it's not nothing.
@@cepahreinholt8710 This only applies for the worlds locked behind the first 20 shines (worlds 1-5) and doesn't apply for worlds 1 and 2 because the place to turn in coins isn't even unlocked yet at that point in the game, everything else requires progression beyond shines where that "beyond" part being something that requires unlocks where you would already have enough shines b4 you can even access the section in the game where you even COULD get the thing you need to unlock. . . and even then, your "shortcut" reasoning ONLY applies to EARLY worlds and does NOTHING for the later-ones (worlds 6, 7 and 8, so almost/pretty much half the game) meaning my case still stands, atleast for the literal second half of the game, as well as the first 2 worlds bare minimum. This means it's useless for OVER half of the game.
What this all translates to:
Blue coins "would" only be shortcut for 3, 4 and 5 of the 8 total worlds. . . with those levels being unlock-able very easily if done naturally without any blue coins. . . except none of that even matters because these "shortcuts" of yours aren't even shortcuts because you still gotta do the levels you skipped regardless, so all it is would just be changing the order you do stuff in rather than fast skipping past them. . . as a shortcut would suggest. :/
So what does that LAST part translate to:
It means you are NOT being rewarded and are instead just giving yourself MORE work, not less, by collecting them if you are only trying to beat the game rather than 100%ing it.
@@Hadeks_Marow maybe it's mostly a matter of opinion. For me it felt rewarding. As I already said my only real frustration was not being abble to find the last ones and not knowing where to shearch them. But at the time I was still proud to have almost 100% completed the game.