I'm glad you brought up Goku and Gohan's relationships with combat. It made me realise that Goku really must directly associate casual fighting with love. His grandfather, the only person he knew for over a decade, taught him martial arts the entire time. His upbringing by the only person he loved until he made friends in Dragon Ball was integrally linked to martial arts and said martial arts are the reason Goku met his friends, his wife and eventually his children. Beyond just the saiyan compulsion to fight, Goku believes martial arts are the direct cause of his happiness and all the love in his life. Of course he thinks Gohan would enjoy fighting, it's synonymous with love to him and he loves his son with all his big dumb monkey heart.
Giggly Fox I dont. Yeah, his heart is in the right place but Goku has the intelligence of a gnat. Logically, Gohan tries to avoid combat. In TFS they took this one step further by making him a pacifist Yet Goku doesn’t get it. Just because Gohan succeeded doesn’t mean this event was horribly unethical and negligent decision. I dont care about DB too much but this was probably the biggest reason why I rarely rewatch even scenes of DBZ. Ironic because Piccolo somehow is the only gets this. And he has done far more physical damage to gohan then Goku has.
Of course Goku isn't smart. He's a hick who lived in the mountains, was never given a formal education, even as an adult. He knows noting about societal norms, culture, or how to be a proper parent. All Goku knows is fighting and farming, and the farming was something taught to him as training for martial arts. Hating Goku because he's dumb is like hating someone with a mental disorder. They had no choice being the way they are.
I didn't take this as a comical bit in Plague's script. Just emphasis on what a shitty life Gohan has had up until that point. No actual friends, and the closest one is just an older man who's sort of like an uncle to him
As Linkin Park's biggest fan (Ha I'm sure someone has probably sacrificed every single thing for some merch or to go to concerts so-), I can confirm this is true.
The rewritten version of Goku's death and it NOT being a SSJ trigger for Gohan absolutely gutted me, holy shit. I love that idea so much that it makes me sad it's not real. Weekly deadline publishing is the equivalent of giving a chef five minutes to prepare one part of a dish, eating whatever state it's in and demanding the next course.
I don't think Deadlines are a problem with a Toriyama. They did not help but it is clear he is just not good at somethings. Backstory and introspective character moments not really one of those things.
@@iller3 Prior to Steel Ball Run Araki was working under a strenuous schedule too. He just tended to be better at writing characters that, even if not written WELL, are written convincingly.
@WoolieVersus Too fucking true, the idea of Gohan being conflicted with not being angry enough at Gokus death and feeling some resentment towards him at the same time would be fucking mind blowing in DB, The amount of impact and depth would increase ten-fold.
It makes me wonder why Imperfect Cell even stopped absorbing people in the first place. He could have absorbed a third of the world before anyone could really stop him or prevent him from doing so. I get he wanted just enough power to capture Androids 17 & 18, but why stop there? Edit: Honestly, I just like "Imperfect" Cells form vastly better than his Final form and Semi-perfect form. A big bug monster that's neither machine-like nor humanoid, yet somehow also both. The ultimate creation of science gone wrong. You're "Perfect" in my eyes, even with that weird ass mouth beak, First Form Cell.
I think just because of diminishing returns, plus his programming. He's now strong enough to do the thing he was designed to do, so anything past that is a relative waste of time compared to absorbing the androids.
Duncan Trice That should have actually happened and honestly everything he changed about the Cell saga, see this is why everyone says Gohan should have been the main character.
One thing I always found weird with Gohan was his portrayal as a smarter character. Despite this, all of his fights play out as if it was Goku fighting. Gohan had the potential to introduce tactics to the fight, overpower enemies not through bullshit transformations or fusions or whatever but through cunning and strategy. Learn his opponent, use their weakness. That sort of shit. He very easily could have been used to disprove the issue that "Big Numbers matter the most" that Dragon Ball fell into. Never happens.
well honestly with cell he kind of did use cell's weaknesses being his cockiness and look how that ended up and he was just taunting buu's simple mind trying to provoke him basically
I don't see where there's room anymore for strategy in Z unless we retcon a new magic system into the series. Like, you can't use land in any meaningful way; I'm not even sure Lava could hurt them, and hiding behind stuff is useless when you can just sense whoever whenever. You can psyche out your opponents by feinting Ki blasts, I guess, but that's still not much. You could add in techniques that lower power or something, but that just ties back into the retconning point. Like, the only thing you really can do is play mind games on a character, and you have to wonder how effective that is when some characters have telepathy.
@@laststrike4411 One moment that comes to mind is when Goku hides the ki blasts under water as decoys to get the jump on Frieza. That was a definite highlight of that overdrawn and boring fight, but that falls into your point of feigning ki blasts being pretty much the only reliable thoughtful tactic in a universe where your location and every move can be sensed by your opponent due to the power level system. Although fighting has been the primary focus of DragonBall since the end of the Pilaf arc, the world-building and various characters are what made the original series so great but the focus on that aspect has shifted over the years into generic chest-beating contests with aliens. The dialogue in Z and beyond doesn't hold a candle to what the original offered and it's really a shame.
@@supamarioisbeast The moment in the Vegeta vs Zarbon fight when Vegeta covertly grabs some dirt from the ground and lets it drop into Zarbon's eyes as he's chasing him was a great little tactical moment as well
Fun fact, I watched the Gohan SSJ2 transformation before watching anything else on Dragon Ball, and I automatically assumed that Android 16 and Gohan had been made friends of some sort; maybe even that Android 16 was considered a “good Android” because of a friendship with Gohan. I was then shocked to realize that this wasn’t the case in the slightest, and that the two had literally never even met
Funny enough my first introduction to that scene was through Dragon ball Z Kakarot which also had a side mission that involved 16 and Gohan and that's why I thought they knew eachother prior to the fight, surprised me too when I found out they've never even heard of eachother before
That was almost my case, i had just gotten into dragon ball, like, 2 weeks prior, and i knew basically nothing, just the actual most basic things, like goku and vegeta, and the dragon balls, then when i saw this scene, i thought the same thing as you, 5 years later, i can say that wasn't the case
"Seeking peace isn't enough, Mr. Popo. I need the strength to end conflicts so that good people aren't hurt!" -Gohan. "Welcome to the Room of Infinite Bullshit!" -Mr. Popo
45:10 Cell absorbing one of the Juniors could also hit a nerve with Gohan because here he could see the absolute extreme of a “father” using up the life of a “child” just for the use as a tool to get what the “father” wanted
@@akiraishin7141 your right that was some well drawn fan panel I saw. (Also they aren't dead they are currently used as plot devices to explain how 17 got so strong)
Cell jrs are quite insane considering they are just as strong as normal cell (unless the original japanese version treated it differently) So he would just end up twice as powerful..and could do it nonstop aswell
Yes, exactly. And the Buu Saga rewrite implications were great, too. If continued, I would extrapolate DBS Gohan as a 'good' version of SDBH's Fuu: A scientist who is fascinated by the universe and by life's source of power. As an extension, Gohan could be on his way to becoming a Kaioshin. His resentment for needless destruction and search for meaning and understanding would match that perfectly. It would also build him up as an interesting counterpart to Goku/Vegeta, who are arguably in training for becoming a God of Destruction. So much wasted potential here...
Yeah, I especially liked how smart Plague went about weaving in Android 16. Having him as a parallel to Gohan works smoothly, both in terms of being expected or even forced to fill a certain role, as well as a curiosity towards life.
Call cap like they can bring 16 back either wish for the chip to be restored to the state it was before it was destroyed or literally just wish him back to the point before the cell games started you can make this even easier by just bringing back the body and the chip but not the power that came with it so Shenron can easily do it
@@sai1737 The guy is a robot, Bulma SHOULD have his frame and data almost completely identical, all they need to do is make the body, and make shenron create an identical memory to the one he had prior to being killed and insert it on the new body.
Now if only other fandoms could learn this. Eli was right about people identifying so strongly with something that even the smallest amount of criticism or opinions that differ from the hive mind might as well be a personalized insult to everyone that likes the thing. That and people just associate different options with "cynicism and negativity". This is one of the biggest reasons I dropped Steven universe. Got really tired of walking on eggshells talking about the shows flaws without getting hate for it.
"True fan" isn't a very good ideal to seek after anyway. It's a fuel for No True Scotsman arguments at best. Being a good critic and analytic thinker of media is a better way to put it in my opinion. I agree with the rest of your statement.
@@Maxim0M1 While "True fan" Isn't ideal neither is the word "Critic". Both carry a stigma that is not entirely true. In my opinion a person is a fan of something if they truly enjoy it. A "true" fan will be accepting of other's ideas and view points on a topic as well while being able to respectfully explain their thoughts and opinions on matters. Effectively, they combine the rolls of a fan and a critic and bring out their concerns in a respectable manner. That said, I appreciate you explaining your view point on the matter as well.
@@anasiss1992 "True Fan" doesn't mean anything. There's no agreed upon meaning for it. That's why it's usually the topic of many No True Scotsman fallacies. I guess critical thinker is better. Basically, it's the idea that you're able to stop your affection for something from clouding your vision and judgement.
@@Maxim0M1 I did state that it was an opinion on a meaning. Besides, if you truly care about something you'd want it to get better or maintain a certain level of quality. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to point out we're saying the same thing just in different ways. Also, my opinion of a true fan takes this fallacy into account. It's not so much as an appeal to purity as you make it out to be. No one is free from being criticized, every one is a critic after all. It's why i say a true fan isn't afraid to criticize the thing they are a fan of. You need to accept that other people have differing opinions and neither are really right or wrong at the end of the day. We can agree that Gohan got the short end of the stick in terms of development, and we agree that his arc could use improvement. Some people may argue how it should be improved while others will say it doesn't. We don't have to agree on everything but we need to at least understand and respect where the other is coming from. Right or wrong, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that a true fan will do everything a critical thinker would do because they care. You can still care about something and set aside nostalgia to critique it.
Duncan Trice Yeah Chi Chi wants him to be a scholar while Goku wants him to be a fighter but Gohan struggles deciding how to be his own person and not like his father.
The most solid evidence I can point to Toriyama never having the slightest idea what to do with Gohan in any given situation is the fact that there are two different parts of the story, in two different arcs, where Gohan proves himself to be utterly useless in the current battle, goes to visit a mystical old man who magically draws out "the maximum potential" of his strength, returns to the battle, and then still fails to make any impact on the outcome of the fight. This exact sequence of events happens *twice*.
You make a good point, and it goes to show how the Buu Arc is definitely the nadir of Gohan's career (before Super). He's the focal character from the outset, much like on Namek, gets told that he needs to regain his fighter's instinct, goes to train with the Z-Sword, awakens his ultimate potential... and then gets absorbed by Buu. Then when he's saved, he immediately dies and his only contribution to the end of the series at that point is raising his hand to the sky after he's wished back to life so that his father can handle everything again.
That's because Gohan was only there to be the character little kids could attach themselves onto when they start with Z. Since everyone else in the cast is an adult by then. Gohan only exists for little kids to have a power fantasy, that's all his character is there for. Goten and Kid Trunks took that role in the Buu Saga, while Gohan took the role of the guy who has a lot of potential and power, but doesn't want to use it or has other ambitions than fighting. In Super he actually gets good character development by realising that he is needed as a fighter in order to protect his family and can't just rely on Goku and Vegeta for everything, which is why he asks Piccolo to train him again.
@@TheAzulmagia The worst part about that is that it was the one point in that arc where having him there actually *WOULD* have solved everything, and it happened due to the usual week to week short-sighted writing Toriyama did. Like, Gohan and the others dying when Earth got blown up was only so that there'd be actual tension in the battle with Buu, since Gohan would have stomped his pure form easily and in either case it wouldn't make sense for him to sit by whilst Goku fought, since he was stronger than Goku at the time. So why did they not go get him immediately once the Earth came back? That oversight just puts the final nail in his coffin as a useful character
Here's the issue with that. Gohan was a child at that point, and one of the weakest power wise and experience wise. Gohan's strongest moment in the frieza arc was distracting frieza long enough for Goku to get back in the game. That is actually growth. It shows Gohan is not a cowardly child now. He's not expected to win, but survive. From there, he still needs more growth. And Cell saga fails at that. And then Buu saga had something but abandoned it
Whats funny is that one of the most prototypical "self insert" characters, Spider-Man, actually does a good job about subverting whats wrong with a lot of these characters. Peter's a nerdy boy that nobody understands, but he's also kind of an asshole in the original series, even after Uncle Ben's death. He can be selfish, manipulative, and cocky about his powers, he has a superiority complex and wants to beat the shit out of his bullies but is only held back by his guilt, and when he does finally go all out it's not considered a good thing. Like there's one story where Peter gets into a boxing match with Flash Thompson and its starts out like "Yeah, Peter's gonna get back at his bully" but as time goes on it comes across kinda weird, and Peter nearly kills Flash by smashing him through the ropes, and Peter freaks out realizing he's going to far and holds back as much as he wants, and even when he wins people assume it's a sucker punch and they insult Peter for cheating... which he was. Even the idea of being a Superhero that can save people is shown not to be a great escapist fantasy, but a extremely dangerous profession that constantly interferes with Peter's life and ruins most of his relationships and makes him even more of a loner. It doesn't even really help with his bullying, as he's still considered a little loser in his High School, and only gets better by the time he's in College where he personally goes through character development t break out of his shell and become friends with people. And his bully Flash Thompson isn't a completely one dimensional stereotype either, he's got flaws and he's an asshole, but he's also regretful at times to what he does to Peter, and admits that it's mostly peer pressure and Peter blowing off Flash when he tries to be nice. He's got redeeming qualities like respecting Spider-Man, trying his best to help people, and even sticking his neck out and fighting criminals to save Spider-Man's image only to nearly get himself killed over it. One time Peter attacked him after he teased him, and Peter actually owned up to the mistake and said that he started the fight when they got into trouble, only for Flash to come and take the fall because he didn't want Peter to get into trouble for his mistake. This even culminates in them becoming good friends in College and Adult life. It's kinda strange that the benchmark for all "Nerdy Superpower'd Teenaged Self Inserts" is one of the more realistic takes on the trope.
Even more remarkable about Spider-man is that when the idea of a teenage superhero was first proposed, most people thought it couldn't be done, nobody would relate to such a character, a teenager would be a complete disaster as a superhero. Well yeah, that was the point; Spider-Man was never supposed to be this amazing champion right off the bat like all superheroes were before his inception. Young people would see Peter Parker and think about their own problems, realize it's okay to not be perfect the moment you get a chance to do something, but also don't let your issues define who you are.
I’d recommend the early Ditko/Lee issues all the way through Romita Sr era to really get to see how Peter evolves as a person. It’s one of the best overarching comics all the way from the 60’s-mid 80’s and it’s only been really done justice by Spectacular Spider-Man. Even the Raimi movies deviate a bit by making Peter slightly more passive.
Absolutely, it really nails Peter being a multidimensional character and having to grow into a more mature man who gets over his own superiority complex. It’s especially gets Flash right and shows him as a guy that’s a jerk, but can mean well when he needs to. There’s even a great moment where he actually calls out Pete on his bullshit, but I won’t spoil it. Check it out.
Ironically, despite you disliking the idea of bullshit power-ups, your Gohan would've been ideal candidate to awaken Ultra Instinct. Imagine that Gohan decided to go against the idea of SSJ, he developed his own method of training and he found out that raw power isn't the answer, being calm, collected and focused was the key all along. Then as the story progress past tournament of power, Gohan could've thaught his technique to humans, as this "transformation" doesn't require saiyan blood, but presence of mind.
Thing is dude this idea of yours is good, but more importantly it's smart and cohesive. The dragon ball series is nothing like this idea. It's not smart, makes little sense and it plays with nostalgia and fanservice. Come to think of it if anything this video has shown me how much dragon ball plays with expectation and manipulates it's audience for marketing purposes
I like how the book Videl gives Gohan is “Muzukashii Hon” which just means “Difficult Book” 😂😂😂. Couldn’t even give him an interesting topic to study, it’s just “difficult”
@@Siamzero1994 tbh videl was an awesome character. She getting sidelined hurt me so much. I really liked her and her fight against spopowitch is one of my Favorites
I had heard he'd died recently, prior to the video going public. I wasn't aware he was a victim of violence. Apparently along with his wife, in-law and another VA. Really terrible.
Your Gohan has a lot of reasons to hate martial arts and have a grudge against his father, but I like how he doesn't quit. Instead of quitting, he tries to understand martial arts in relation to philosophy, science, and life. This study could also be one way for Gohan to understand Goku and reconcile their relationship.
Kind of like... almost like the spiritual aspect of martial arts, maybe? While Goku is more about the competitive and/or physical improvement aspects? And while Piccolo & Vegeta are more about the military aspects, and the nature of power?
The weirdest part of all of this is Roshi, despite being a walking pervert stereotype does have the wise master aspect to help guide Gohan. I remember when Roshi as Jackie managed to defeat Tien not through violence, but through words
Dude, I love the idea of characters being warrior-scholars. I dont watch DBZ (just like watching dissections and whatnot), is there any existing character that fits the bill? (Aside from Roshi, I mean active characters) If not, then maybe an addition to that would be quite interesting. Gripes talked about how DBS tried doing away with power levels and, instead, look for creative fighting (though it didnt quite manage that). A warrior-scholar would've been in his turf here
The statement about Gohan "figuring out mysteries" got my gnoggin joggin, and it made me come up with a tentative reason why saiyan hybrids would be so strong. None of this is based in canon, its entirely throwing idea's out into the void. My idea would be that, essentially, Saiyans are big walking ki generator's, and humans are big walking ki batteries. Saiyans lived on a hellworld, with high gravity, and lived their entire lives to fight. So they adapted as such. High metabolism and eating mountains of food at a time means they burn through a lot of energy in a short amount of time, its why saiyans seem so hyperactive and raring to go at all times. If they're not fighting they're training, because they're constantly outputting energy and it needs to go somewhere. Like a toddler on an eternal sugar high, you need to wear them out or they will never sleep. Humans, meanwhile, also kind of live on a horror world. But in their case the solution wasn't to fight constantly, but rather to survive a long while. They eat where they can because food isn't guranteed, and have more stamina then any other creature on the planet so that they can either outrun the bigger bastards or bring them down in the famous "slowly follow them for days at a time till they just die" trick. This is why on the surface level, saiyans are so powerful. They're constantly outputting energy of all kinds, especially ki, and training their bodies just lets them release more of it at a time. A saiyan has no layers to their power, its all out or its not out. A super saiyan transformation is literally jsut them morphing their bodies to be able to handle a greater energy output. If they were generators with an output dial from 1-10, training would be pushing that dial slowly from 11 to 20, then past that, and super saiyan would be upgrading the generator all together and starting again from the 1-10 dial. Humans meanwhile seem to have greater emphasis on hidden power, or stored power. They don't output nearly as much energy as saiyans, because thats a waste of energy that could be used on more important things, so their bodies just absorb any excess they don't use, gaining fat, or muscle, stuff like that. In ki terms, that would be locking away whatever they don't use to not die in their little ki vaults that the Elder Guru or the Elder Kai has the keys for. So in this little headcanon i've developed, Goku would always be able to fight on a better level then Krillin, he can just output more energy, but Krillin despite that would be able to fight for longer amounts of time, constantly chipping away or annoying Frieza while all the heavy hitters actually fight him and then lose to his next transformation, but its also why a saiyan can bounce back from injuries or exhaustion better. In which case, half breeds like Gohan would be a perfect mixture. As a saiyan he'd be constantly outputting metric shittons of energy, and as a human he'd be storing and locking away that very same power inside himself for emergencies. E.G. whenever he snaps and enters a rage boost, that's like, a years worth of energy being launched out in a moments notice. The Elder can somewhat unlock that hidden power, but its like a river. Even if you let the energy being stored flow out again its still being filled again and again over and over. He gets the training benefit of both races, expanding that store of energy he can tap into and also expanding the amount of energy he can use and generate, he'd have way more growth then either race would have just by themselves. It's 5am, these've been my incoherent ramblings about a childrens cartoon i care too much about.
The rewrite having Gohan faced with being a weapon, and a 'soulless puppet', I felt that. In fact, that's a perfect trigger for snapping. If he's a weapon, fine. Cell just made himself the target. It's sort of like how no one seemed to think, in series, that making a disturbed child the strongest could have turned out really bad if he say, actually killed Cell and then, in the Super Saiyan 2 rage high, decided he was in charge now, no more of the universe's bullshit. Like he immediately goes after Vegeta for what happened in the past. Saiyans are not very nice, after all. In that kind of murderous state he could have become exactly what they wanted, with the drawbacks included.
This makes me think of Aang and how one of his masters was trying to keep Aang mentally stable and able to still experience the joys of his childhood, whereas the other one is like, "No, we don't have time for that. The world needs the Avatar. He needs to train harder." and stuff like that. Or how Jasper was considered the perfect gem and the perfect warrior but other than being a large tank, she was never actually treated like a person. Only a weapon. Same thing with Mina. Solaria did arguably take her out of her peasant role to fight monsters, but that's _all_ she cared about. Turning the girl into a blood knight. She didn't actually care about Mina the person, or Mina's mental health or well-being.
i see the more important trigger being the line "there is no "life" to wish back" regarding 16. similar to how goku's transformation was triggered by krillin's SECOND death and the belief that he couldn't be wished back, the straw that breaks gohan's back would be his realization that 16 could never be wished back (except this time he ACTUALLY can't be wished back)
When you think about it, yeah, Gohan was really kept from becoming his own person from the beginning. He’s the child of an overbearing mother who was raised in the woods, and an alien with brain damage who was conditioned to associate violence with affection.
Goku isn't inherently a violent individual. If you don't want to fight him he respects that. Hell Goku is actually known for sparring his opponents to the point of absurdity. Goku only became this fight obsessed weirdo in super.
@@ASHtheSLUGCAT His single overarching goal throughout the entire series is to encounter the best fighters in the whole world and become stronger in the process (so he can fight new people). That’s why he doesn’t kill most of his enemies. They fought him, they failed, maybe they’ll fight him again later.
Well, what coherent person wouldn't? But i at least think that if Gohan wouldn't wanted to be nor a """"scholar"""" nor a fighter at least goku would understand(? While ChiChi would blast the fuck out of her head and go crazy, anyway yeah, goku's a shithead
"Everyone in the series should have PTSD and be a walking mess of complexes if we were taking all of this seriously." Goddamn it, now i want Dragon Ball: Evangelion Edition.
@@rav-7072 I like Naruto, and even I know it has A LOT of problems as well as one piece and dragon ball. Bleach... It's been a long time since I've seen the anime.
I want to imagine a future where Gohan is a "Ki Scientist" with his hot wife Videl as his #1 Study Buddy (See also: Wife), and they just do crazy bullshit with Ki. Like that thing with Roshi? I wanna see Videl pull that off, and then them messing with it based on trunk's "Muscle mode" he tried to use against Cell. Imagine Roshi seeing Goku's son improve on his move, and have mastered it enough to be able to explain simply. Gohan. Also known as "Dr Fist"
I'd really like to see videl to exhibit some of her classic tomboyish behaviors and her love for martial arts more. She can be both, a mom and invested in fighting.
This and the Villains editorials are some of my favorites you've put out, at least in terms of narrative analysis. I look forward to more, regardless of the time that will inevitably be required to put them together.
@@scarlet_phonavis6734 I don’t know if you remember (or if you only watched the original Funimation dub), but Videl, despite her head underneath Spopovich’s foot, kept thinking “I can’t let him win”. She wasn’t planning on giving up or hoping Gohan would come to her rescue, and considering how headstrong she was, she probably wouldn’t have accepted the help because of her pride as a fighter. Also Videl, to her utter amazement, had her battered body instantly healed from a Senzu Bean by Gohan (a boy she blackmailed into entering the tournament). So yeah, I think any girl would stick around a little longer after a boy just delivers a miracle to her.
@@scarlet_phonavis6734...it was a tournament. She could have dropped out at any time but chose to keep fighting. Not to mention that Gohan almost ran into the ring to save her when the other guy with the M on his forehead reminded the other guy they have a mission. And she convinced him to go into the tournament by blackmailing him into revealing that he is the hero fighting the criminals recently. Why are you spinning it like HE wanted to join the tournament and HE didn't want to help her so he won't be disqualified in the tournament? It's totally backwards.
"Gohan. We're not tools of our fathers or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing... the only thing I was good at. But... at least I always fought for what I believed in."
The more breakdowns and analysis I watch about Dragonball, the more I think I understand the appeal of the series. It’s a lot like a big set of Legos. Nearly limitless ways they can be used and pretty much universally loved no matter what form they take, but the actual writing feels like someone made half a spaceship from memory and called it a day. Watching these really helps me think critically about my own writing, and I hope this will help me translate my work into a book I’m proud to create
@@laststrike4411 I deleted it! I'm also not trying to advertise. I don't care to gain followers. I will instead reply with: I do not think the OP is going to reply to my comment. My story gets called original and fresh a lot, alongside with unique and one-of-a-kind. It does not follow any tropes/cliches and I do an entirely new spin on storytelling as a whole. It's an Odyssey because it's so long, and it is split into 5 parts, each with different "main characters" inside a multiverse where literally _ANYTHING_ is possible. It is a mix of sci-fi, fantasy, dark fantasy, dystopia, pre and post apocalypse, thriller, horror, and comedy with a bit of slice of life in there. It gets pretty silly at times and serious, too. I even made it like an anime crossed with online video games. Natural pink hair and yellow irises? There's an explanation for that. White hair? Explained. It's pretty awesome and the feedback is always well received and my characters are all loved--Villains and heroes alike. I hope to help spread mental health awareness in a unique way that the world can understand and appreciate. I hope yours can help better people's lives too, or at least give them a new form of entertainment. Not many stories these days stick out from the rest and more barely even try to do something different.
honestly, i feel like ALOT of the android saga asspull problems happened only because the shonen jump weekly publish system....so toriyama is forced to give each chapter a cliffhanger to keep the viewers engaged....of course when you look back at the whole thing, you'll notice how incredibley artificial it all is
@@camiloprovoste7288 that's true DBZ doesn't need to be taken all that seriously. I personally just like everything in life to be consistent and tidy. You're right though it is after all "just a fun series to watch."
@@blakechildress944 Z doesn't get messy until the android arc honestly the Sayin and Freiza arcs are some of the greatest in shounen history, but by the Buu saga I was done it's so easy to see how the villains in z go from great to shit so quickly
@Cameron Childress Wow, someone who knows my pain, because DBZ is my number favorite anime, despite the fact that upon closer examination it has moments that are down right infuriating from a writing standpoint...
With the part of Gohan writing a book to teach others about ki, is an amazing thing to think about, which makes me sad when Tien, Iguess is doing that already. But of course we already know they don’t like Tien and will never explore upon the concepts of his dojo. Great evaluation and video.
“Comfort Branding” is a good term for what you described. Ive seen it my whole life but didn’t know a term for it beyond “fanboying” or “jerking off” to it. You see it in many products like Call of Duty being the biggest one. The anime fanboy wars from back then stemmed from “comfort branding”. But as you said, it can extend to any commercial product, both tangible and intangible like media. Even now still happens and will always happen as it is human nature. But comfort branding will always be an advantage for corporations or those that control the product or media.
I think the recentish "average fan vs. enjoyer" meme captures a similar idea. Some people like a thing because it's fun, or interesting, or challenging etc. whereas some just like it for the sake of liking it - usually due to nostalgia - and base their entire personality and self-worth around liking said thing; this usually leads to obsessive fact-memorizing or merchandise collecting as a substitute for an actual hobby that one can be enriched by.
@K19 If I understand Saiyan biology correctly, any eye strain that Gohan gets should recover and turn into super sight. He should have at least 30/20 eyesight.
That always bothered me so much because why does he need that when can see perfectly fine? It's an annoying stereotype to give smart people glasses for no reason other than that they are smart and it's nothing but lazy.
Incidentally, they added a scene in DBZ: Kakarot where Gohan is recruited by Bulma to help fix Android 16 via fetch quest, and then 16 has Gohan follow him into the woods for diagnostic purposes, which gives them a chance to talk and fight poachers, and 16 gets to talk about how he was a defective war machine because he wasn't as bold as Gero's son. It's not the best attempt, but it at least is an attempt to add any amount of parallels between 16 and Gohan, and give that sequence with Cell any amount of emotional weight and build-up. They also remove the part where Goku gives Cell a Senzu bean, which is a plus. Hopefully going forward, DBZ games can start taking more liberties with the story to flesh it out, or hell, just rewrite parts of it. Lord knows "What If" scenarios are popular with the Dragon Ball fanbase, so you'd think there'd be a market for them instead of just making you play through the manga over and over again.
I just want a DBZ game where they have a version of the story where different characters get to be the hero. Like maybe when Radditz kidnaps Gohan, Goku enlists the help of Tenshinhan. Goku holds him down while Tien Kikoho's Radditz and dies from the recoil. Then Tien trains with King Kai and we get to see the story from that angle.
That about sums up DBZ games now a days. Budokai games was a new way to see the anime in CG format in the 2000s, the tenkaichi games found a way to get the player to reenact fight scenes like the goku vegeta beam struggle or the z fighters vs frieza's transformations in the 2010s. DBZ Kakarot seems kind of forgettable. DBZ games now just copy paste the story and change little pieces here and there from the previous games. Story is pretty much all that is left to change in DBZ but you risk alienating the fans who expect the retelling, while boring the fans who want to see alternate stories like if the earth z fighters fought together with Goku against Raditz and get an entire new story out of it.
We straight up need a complete Reboot of the Dragon Ball world with the twenty years of hindsight we have in mind now. It shouldnt just be exclusive to the video games.
What you said about how Gohan’s entire character being a blank palette for fans to project themselves on is absolutely spot on. This is also the reason why fans are always clamoring for Gohan to do more in the franchise, because he’s never actually been written intimately ever since he was created. Subconsciously we all know that Gohan doesn’t have much to him, but the moments where he’s teased as something greater impacts everyone because they like to see themselves in those bursts of greatness. It’s just denying his banality.
@@insightfulhistorian1861 no one's lashing out tho. And if you're referring to op, it was legit insight to what the audience wishes. Not an attack to the points here, but an additional input to the video. I'm a girl and the first time I watched gohan was in the buu saga. When he was up against buu, I was rooting for him just because I saw he was a good school kid and for no other complex reason. Like op and the video creator here, I also want gohan to realize his full potential as decent, life loving character
@@chew7656 No one is lashing out on this video. Go onto a dbz clips channel and try explaining that the Cell Games is a disservice to Gohan's character, and you'll get lit up by enraged Gohan fanboys. People will get passed if you tell them Gohan is merely an empty slate for us to project our aspiration into.
@@insightfulhistorian1861 tbf The cell games is Gohan's best arc. Commenting that it was bad, and that it was even a disservice to the character, might make zero sense with little context. First you need to point out the bad writing. That's easy. The tough part is explaining why it was a disservice. Because, despite the bad writing, it's still the arc that allowed gohan to shine You need to explain that it's bad... because it could've been better. And it's a disservice because it wasted his potential to be a better written character Then you have to convince and give examples how it could've been better you need a lengthy, well-structured video to explain that. A comment can hardly contain so much information. But I think gohan fans (or db fans actually) are generally open minded. Their reception to well-meaning and well structured criticism (like this video) is quite good. Maybe the audience's age has something to do with it I mean, compared to Naruto fans. Look at gripe's like to dislike ratio in his other lengthy video about naruto's ideological flaws. Now compare it to the like to dislike ratio in this gohan video. Or the like to dislike ratio in his "db powerscaling fails" video. fans can take criticism if it's well structured and they fully understand what you're trying to say That's why I think more fans should see this video. It's a fresh, in depth take on the character
@@chew7656 I said the inadequacy of the arc needs to be explained, but I'm telling you there are dbz fanboys who worship the cell saga, especially Gohan's ssj2 transformation, and they'll attack anyone who says it's anything less than perfect. People who are emotionally invested in Gohan don't want to hear that he could have been written better because, as Plague said, they were manipulated. Have you ever tried explaining to someone in detail why they were emotionally manipulated? You're going to get reflexive hate in response. The only reason his dislike ratio isn't higher is because most dbz fans haven't seen this video. If Plague had as wide a fanbase as Geekdom, then the outrage would be spilling out.
So, did gohan ever learn that scholar isn't a profession? You have to be a Professor or a Scientist so that you can have something to study, research, or teach.
You saying Gohan researching Ki and giving that knowledge to the rest of the world was a REALLY great idea. He finds a compromise of sorts between both ideals. The Studying and Knowledge of the world to teach himself and others. That being the essence of Ki and the lessons it teaches. *And then think of this:* The first few epsidoes of Buu Saga show that the population is going through a "Ki craze", with a lot of people trying to do it themselves (could have a funny scene of kids trying to do a Kamehameha like many did at least once). This can tie into Saiyaman showing up r populace that they can be heroes too. After those scenes the story continues as usual (with fixing certain fights and such) all the way to the ending fight. The scene where everyone has to raise their hands to give energy is now possible and strong enough because people knew what Ki is and how to use it. Gohan basically helped save the world his own way, by making the fight not a one on one, but by everyone fighting together.
Ez fix, its like how most ppl go to the gym and want 6 packs, but when they find out its more difficult than just exercising for a few weeks, and then u realize that ppl only like the idea of 6 packs but not the amount of effort required to get them, itll be like that for Ki in this world that plague is talking about, so lets aay it takes like 2-7 years just to unlock ur ki, most ppl wouldve given up by then, and ull need extra years to master ur ki, thats a nice solution in my eye s
Gohan is always said to be smart, but never shown to be smart. Having his fighting and studying combined instead of kept separate would be amazing to fix that. To have him be the combat professor. For him to get ChiChi's approval. ChiChi is afterall following the sterotype, as said, but she loves fighting and martial arts too. I think she's just not smart enough to see the chance for the two to overlap, much like Toriyama. Gohan being what his parents both wanted of him at the same time, whilst also being himself, sounds like the best outcome. That and I like the idea of Videl being the thing to push him into going professional after he teaches her how to fly. That scene should have been the first step in Gohan realising what he was going to be. Everything after that really falls into place as you described it. Learns his own unique form that uses the power of SSJ2 without the drain. Fascinated with Buu to the point that he manages to get himself absorbed, thus forcing the Vegito fusion. The story could have stayed the same, without any moments of disappointment. And characters that get random powerups for no reason later on could instead explain that they learned Gohan's special form. Krillen, Roshi, and others who are way stronger than they ever should be, would have an explanation. They graduated from Gohan's school of Ki! Except for Tien who made his own school and that's why he sucked. It really all falls into place. Combat professor Gohan is what I really expected and hoped for. And with your changes, I now see how close we came to it. Dragonball z needs a redo... Also with Raditz still alive.
"Gohan's said to be smart, not shown to be smart" I think gripes would agree with you. He made another video criticizing dbz's power levels and how goku and the cast just keeps blasting beams and it's always the same beam, the anime watcher is just expected to believe it's a stronger beam because an in-verse character like piccolo just says something like this: "wow this is the strongest beam I've seen yet" Have you watched the video yet? If not, I totally recommend it
I don't think yall get gohan's character,his whole point is he lack the will to take action,throughout the whole frezia saga as he described himself "was a scared little boy who relied on others to save his ass" that's what gohan's whole development was,to learn to be a man of action.so the buu saga followed that with gohan taking charge of protecting the earth as the great sayianman and not thinking for a second to charge at his enemies when in the past he puss out.even when gohan was getting an ass whooping by buu he still attack him even tho he knew it was useless.gohan learned to have the confidence of his father to take on the challenges,in Z at least.he never hated fighting or was a pacifist he just lacked the will power his father has.DBZ is as perfect as it is yall just overreacting.The only thing that needs to be redone is gohan being the one the kill buu keeping goku and vegeta dead,it let's us know the new gen can take care of themselves(as goku wanted)
I'm pretty much doing a fair amount of what you're saying in my DBZ fan work with over 700,000 words written and 400,000+ words posted. Raditz is also a part of the main cast instead of Vegeta and more focus is put on the Earthlings and Piccolo as combat relevant. I'm rewriting the story from the Raditz fight but I intend on writing every villain in the same order. (The only ones I'm iffy on are Baby and The Shadow Dragons, I like both but I really have to figure out what I want to do rather than just kind of shove them in with little changes as Vegeta isn't there to get taken over by Baby.)
Definitely prefer the rewrite, but a lot can be done in hindsight that wouldn't be possible when writing any weekly series. Not that Toriyama's a good writer, but I imagine the typical manga format is a nightmare of rushing both writing and art for years on end.
Light novel industry as well. That industry is a shit show. Some like to say that the anime adaptations of these light novels are poor adaptations. But frankly, its more like they showed what the story in the light novel is without the sophistry and purple text.
It's kinda funny to think that maybe Toriyama doesn't know what a scholar does, so he made Gohan study pretty much everything while being 4 and then take "smart guy" as a profession.
Not gonna lie, it kind of annoyed me when you said Gohan's SSJ2 transformation was terribly written, but seeing your take on how it could have been, with the building up and the scene itself, I gotta say I agree with you. And also the "Gohan finds a different type of love for fighting" thing, really feels like it would have been in-character, and sounds like a really interesting concept.
Funnily enough I started out disagreeing but changing my mind when he explained it. Then changed again to think it doesn't matter all that much because the emotional payoff is all that really matters. People often *despise* and discredit DBZ and Kingdom Hearts Story. And for arguably good reason. But nonetheless it gets people very emotional, and that is what matters more in the end. Emotions are felt, thoughts might turn into memories and checking for consistency and logic is an exercise solely for those emotionally invested.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I sort of see what you mean, although I think given better context for a story would have a better emotional attachment rather than one that's bare bones in context and is more focused on the emotions.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 that’s a bad take. Emotional payoff is what matters? As he states in the video, a lot of “emotion” is manufactured that takes any reasonable person to think about for a second and all the threats go away. What you’re just saying is yeah, going strictly off emotion is dumb
@@20marvelman Why are you fetishizing logic when it comes to media/art? The value of them is the impact they have on the viewer and how it makes them feel. DBZ and more specifically Gohan has a massive group of fans due to how it was handled. Yes it was very "superficial" in how it got people to react emotionally to it. But it still resonated with people, it made them feel a strong set of emotions that didn't do them any harm. Would it be better if it did a much more efficient and consistent job to elicit the same emotional payoff? Sure, of course. But that is like saying "It is better to have a better version of ___." If the inconsistency or poor handling of a scene ruins the emotional payoff, then it is a problem. But if people can get past those problems then what is the issue? People bash on KH all the time for having such a winding story going in random non-sensical directions. Yet people followed the series religiously over 17 years and are still excited for the next saga. For me it is because Roxas and Ventus's tragedies make me feel such a strong set of emotions that I want to cry listening to their themes. For others they want the good boy Sora to reunite with his friends since they have such a connection. And your going to let the fact that time travel feels confusing when you put a lot of thought into it, ruin the rest of the experience? Art is not a math problem it doesn't follow a certain formula to elicit the same result every time.
I don't think yall get gohan's character,his whole point is he lack the will to take action,throughout the whole frezia saga as he described himself "was a scared little boy who relied on others to save his ass" that's what gohan's whole development was,to learn to be a man of action.so the buu saga followed that with gohan taking charge of protecting the earth as the great sayianman and not thinking for a second to charge at his enemies when in the past he puss out.even when gohan was getting an ass whooping by buu he still attack him even tho he knew it was useless.gohan learned to have the confidence of his father to take on the challenges,in Z at least.he never hated fighting or was a pacifist he just lacked the will power his father has
I don't know whether it was the skillful and tactical use of the SSJ3 theme in the background but the description of everything after the 46 minute mark had me legit tearing up. It was SO GOOD. This whole video was spot on and a privilege to watch.
@@SaltedMallows Okay, since neither of the two guys here have properly explained what they mean, I'll do it. In Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy, possibly Age of Sigmar but that doesn't matter here, there are four all powerful beings that can be argued to be the big bads of both settings: the Chaos Gods. Each of these Gods are essentially an amalgamation of ideas and emotions associated with their main theme. In Nurgle's case, his main shtick is decay, disease, rot, death, anything related to those topics. As far as emotions go, Nurgle is mainly associated with despair, depression, and tends to have many nihilistic followers that become joyful just for the sake of being alive and receiving Nurgle's "gifts", despite those gifts being diseases like super cancer and crotch rot, along with generally smelling like crap. At the same time however, Nurgle can represent ideas such as love of nature, the circle of life, platonic love and family, and physical/emotional endurance. Hopefully that clears it up.
@@nooneinparticular5256 I have no idea and they didn't give a single hint of an explanation as to how, but he was in one of the panels in the Super manga after the tournament of power arc alive and well still up there making mochi.
The non-existent relationship between 16 and Gohan being pointed out reminds me of Naruto and Gaara. After the time-skip they both act like they have this amazing deep bond with both of them deeply caring for each other, but in actuality they are total strangers who had just one meaningful brief interaction after a big fight. It's the reader who knows Gaara and (supposedly) cares about Gaara and that is projected onto Naruto, even though as mentioned... they are total strangers. Also shame that youtube is so toxic to this kind of videos, I love Plague's analysis stuff.
Dionysus24779 Naruto and Gaara, I always thought, was more that they’re so stupidly desperate for a friend they force the deep bond themselves. Which is why they don’t interact often other than to be “OH NO MY BFF!” Makes sense, considering how silly Naruto is.
same thing with sasuke they spend way more time searching for him than they ever spent thogueter, which is worse than gaara since the series became about naruto and sasuke rivalry
Darktusken I think with Sasuke they retcon it kinda so that they (Naruto and Sasuke) interacted as kids, right? Kids prior to forming the team, I mean.
@@garylevine3521 i remenber some of those added panels which werent convincing and they seemingly aded scenes were naruto spent fun times whith shikimaru and the rest kinda destroying the whole outcast loner aspect that naruto initiallly had
I would have absolutely loved to see Gohan take the two desires of his parents and do his own thing with them. One wanted a fighter, one wanted a scholar. Gohan becoming a "warrior scholar" would have been really neat. Studying the complexities of fighters and techniques, deepening his understanding of them as fights go on. Earning that power increase against Buu by connecting dots that allow him to utilize the things he's learned in an unexpected way. Enjoying fights in a completely different way than goku. That look of pure confidence when facing Buu would have hit completely different, even if he lost anyway. Would have been super cool
Goku honestly didn’t care if Gohan was a fighter after while. Read the manga or rewatch the anime, Goku tells Gohan to kill Cell so that he can go ahead and be a scholar. Goku just kinda wanted him to be happy
Jenny Berger Goku never put him through anything what you mean 😂😂 read the manga more. Piccolo put him through the Saiyans, Goku was literally wrapped up like a mummy and couldn’t stop Gohan from going to Namek anyway, him and Piccolo told Gohan not to fight the Androids and sent him home with Yamcha and Goku only told Gohan to fight Cell as a last resort. Buu was kinda all of their faults collectively (Goku and Vegeta for fighting, Gohan for not being strong enough to kill Dabura) you literally can only blame Goku for putting Gohan through ONE fight and that’s only because Gohan was legit the ONLY option. Y’all Goku haters really gotta stop
Anthony Garner I’m not saying he caused everything but I’m saying that goku and others put him through tons of trauma, now, let’s review: gets kidnapped by raditz, his father dies, the person who killed his father (piccolo) kidnaps him and puts him through a year of intense physical abuse (he’s 4 at the time) saiyan’s arrive, lots of his friends dies, the person who was practically torturing him for a year sacrifices himself to save him, he sees the fight between Vegeta and goku and he can clearly see his father just being beat (when he goes ape), he undergoes intense physical and emotional trauma, and then the whole namek thing which I won’t even list since that’s too long (but bonus: after goku went super saiyan he said he might kill him! Gohan! His own son! Yaayyy (this was because his super saiyan transformation had makes him blind sighted by rage but still) then in the Android saga having to come across Frieza and his army again, having to do intense physical training to prepare for androids to basically kill everyone, sees his father get the heart virus and nearly die, the whole fight with the androids stuff, going into the hyperbolic time chamber with his father because he wanted to spend time with him and doing nothing but training, in the fight with cell watching his father, his mentor and everyone else get abused by cell, and also him getting physically abused (after his OWN FATHER made him fight, with him not telling him his plan AT ALL and giving cell a senzu bean!), then he sees another person die, and he snaps. He has some good moments of letting his rage out and then his own dad (also the one who has sent him through so much trauma) sacrifices himself for him. Cell comes back, kills trunks who was a good friend, almost kills Vegeta (but he sacrifices his arm) and eventually beats him. *this is up to the cell saga ALONE with many missed moments and not even including namek because it would take so long.*
Huh. Having Gohan discover a way to gain the potential of a Saiyan and pass on that knowledge to the rest of the Z-Fighters would have been an easy way to power the rest of the cast naturally.
He could have learned how to do what the Kai did to him and do it for others. Maybe even from talking to the Kais about it he ends up learning about God Ki and Destruction long before Beerus actually shows up but doesnt mention it to Goku or Vegeta cause he knew they'd pick a fight.
@@lancetlo Perhaps he could even have started down that path out of curiosity and we wouldn't have had to get this contrived nonsense about multiple people of the same species sharing energy to make someone godlike *somehow*, which would've spared us the really lame way it was revealed that Gohan was going to be a dad.
If anything, additional fighting techniques could be passed down and studied analytically. This would give rise to a study or school of Martial Arts similar to the Turtle Hermit style while focusing more on self-discovery or self-rediscovery than on the fighting itself. Seeing the depths of one's own potential by training of the mind and continually better understanding themselves as possibilities present themselves. In a sense, it unmasks the stereotype of big strong fighter with big number and focuses more on how this opponent can better your understanding of who you are. Did I get that right?
I love how TFS actually made 16's monologue meaningful. A harsh scolding of a sanctimonious child who stands idle while his friends are being tortured due to his disposition, and only once it resonates, could his death be meaningful because Cell drove the point home; after 16 put on the pressure, Cell broke the firmament with a final shock and gave him the realization; the helplessness Gohan felt was self-inflicted, and once he stopped inflicting it, nothing other than cold contempt mixed with fury remained. Then, all the rage he SHOULD have been feeling at this moment, as someone far more rightous and fair minded than his father, as someone far more caring than his father, and far less flippant than his father, unleased itself explosively and without warning. It wasn't 16's death that send him over the edge. It was merely 16 who made him realize it he should've gone over it months ago.
Also Goku gets shit on a lot more during that fight, but also in a more realistic way, which I liked, because Piccolo is being way more real with him about how he's ignored what Gohan actually wants.
The problem with this argument is that it makes it seem like Gohan is better than Goku in practically every. And this makes it seem like Goku didn’t care about Gohan at all, an unfortunate side effect of the abridged actually making him a worse character than his canon counterpart. The transformation in the abridged in my opinion didn’t feel earned because Abridged Gohan was a whiny brat most of the time, with most of his hate towards his father literally being because thing that were out of his control. And the problem with monlogue was thi 16 called Gohan a coward. Which is something he isn’t. No matter the opponent, he never really backed down, or ran away. There’s not wrong with the monologue itself, but it’s main take away points out a flaw he just doesn’t have.
@@sundowner4076 true, but I personally like how that by the end, gohans definitely more over it and isn’t beat goku over the head with that shit anymore. Just accepting the situation for what it was, the good and the bad
Probably the best (and worst) thing you ever do is take a show I absolutely don't care for, and construct a version of it that I would absolutely be down to binging in a day.
Video is phenomenal, puts Gohan in a new perspective. How many of us wear masks, be who we "need" to be, never have been able to be ourselves, driven by an external person or force to partake in something we dont want to be a part of? Love it! The rewrite is phenomenal.Gohan (and we lol) deserve better.
This ended up wonderfully heartwarming, which is a great suprise, given your other overly long Dragon Ball videos and the Naruto one. It strengthens the video a lot, how you drop the mask of those videos in this very video about the masks of a character. I know you kinda say that yourself, but I want to say that it worked well.
@@LuisPereira-bn8jq Yeah, they are. Tone and delivery can change the mood of a video immensly. He refers to his points about the Gohan transformation moment as "crybaby fight against Cell he hasn't earned" and randomly throws in "fuck you Gohan" anytime he's mentioned in his power levels video. Every opportunity where he criticizes the mechanic of powerups there he does it by saying "but he's even strongaaaah" in a sarcastic voice. That kind of stuff permeates all those videos. They're entertaining and just as full with useful insight about narrative structure and writing, but none of it can ever be as moving as the bit about a rewrite here or as genuine-feeling as the words about how he does or doesn't like aspects of shows. It's a more unique dimension to this format than snarky asshole.
I would also accept Anger Management Frequenter Gohan, who is regularly ordered to attend by the court because he is always screaming at Videl for whatever reason. You know, like Mom taught him to do.
the panzie man Wait that’s a contradiction. You just said Gohan learned how to be a good dad from Mr.Satan and followed up by saying he didn’t learn it from the “Savior of Earth” but that’s also Mr.Satan.
If there's a good thing about Gohan's studying is that it made him a more formed man that understands more about life than fighting and training. Goku is not a bad father, but besides loving and protecting his son he doesn't know how to dad.
The more i hear about this video, the more i see that Gohan would have been a wreck of a person if he grows up to adulthood. I know its just the writers but i am impressed that Gohan managed to stay sane from all of that
Its funny because it feels like Gohan is trying desperately hard to stay out of Goku's life of chasing gods, aliens, and apocalypses. He just wants to keep his head in his books and enjoy his family yet the universe around him seems to be manufacturing reasons for him to go back out and fight
@@elevate07 Thank fuck you didn't play SSB. That psuedo fighting game is shit. Oh and UMvC3 was unbalanced as fuck and way too degenerate as a "competitive" game. All MvC3 had going for it are the roster the artstyle and the hype. The sequel MvCI had none of these benefits. But to stay on fucking topic, DBZ is overhyped by fantards and Goku, Broly and Vegeta fanboys (Seth the Programmer) are outright hilarious to listen to when mad.
"Comfort branding" sounds a lot like what's known as *consumer identity* . In a capitalist/consumerist society, we construct our identity by (partly) basing it on what we consume. Be it a certain type of food, clothes of a specific brand, or media.
Fun facts: Yes! Back when I was writing this out, eons ago, I considered consumer identity, but ultimately had to use it as an umbrella, because I wanted something that was also more related to formative development and not just the consumption aspect. Not necessarily stemming from youth, but relating to someone having primary experience with a new idea that results in said consumerism. (Often a result of being young, though.) An original version of the script explained all this, but got cut because that version was like an hour and a half long. There were a half dozen other contenders as well. There are dozens of different varieties of classified nostalgia, for example. Thankfully not a huge deal either way, but something I definitely spent too long thinking about while writing. I'm no psychologist or social scientist though, so my internet term can safely be limited to one hour long Dragonball video, in the most ironic fashion possible.
Gohan having his own philosophy and somehow channeling that into his love of fighting? My man, I think you just described the version of Gohan we deserved to have. Fantastic analysis and video overall!
I loved Gohan so much growing up and this video was right at every turn. Watching this I realized that Gohan never developed a single unique technique and his only unique transformation is just him without any indications of a transformation. My boy deserved so much better. I adore the idea of Adult being a discovery freak and loving life, reminds me of Dick Grayson. Your idea of Adult Gohan so perfect I'm bummed I'll never see it.
“Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist”- George Carlin Whether by the approving of positive or by the negating of negative, I hope you’ll share with us your well organized thoughts regarding story structure in the future as you have done in this. Thanks 👍
Gohan is my favorite character from Dragonball. Probably because of the things you mention, I was around the target age for his marketing, and his presence helped me understand and relate to the story at the time. That being said I completely agree with you that Gohan deserved better than what he got most of the time. It always felt like Toriyama wanted him to be a significant character, but he never wanted to follow through on establishing his character.
I feel like its less that he didn’t want to and more that he just didn’t have the time The way shonen jump manga are made doesn’t really give much room to let you sit around and workshop things til it works and becomes something great You gotta get shit out by the end of the week (and on some level) bend to what your editors and higherups Some of DB’s best moments came from this structure. but sadly, so did some of its worst :/
I know they say boys marry their mothers but jeez, that shot of videl in super telling him to be a scholar was striking. I love dragon ball and thats why ur right , it deserves so much better writing
This is the video I've been looking for, one that talks about my current opinions on Gohan now that I am almost 22. I used to think Gohan was stupid for not training all the time like his dad. But lately I've been realizing he has been forced into his path in life by his dad and mom. Him being a "scientist" or whatever is still because of his mom. Gohan never got to choose. Gohan has the potential to be an exceedingly deep character, things like him resenting his father, mother, and never getting to choose in life...just isn't acknowledged, and even now he is still being pushed and pressured to be a fighter, to awaken...to get mad...because he was born with certain genetics. I actually feel really bad for Gohan now that I understand this, and it hurts even more that this side to him won't be acknowledged and he's just gonna be another musclehead who GETS STRONGER AND TRAINS etc.
I honestly think the DB Super episode where Gohan and his family have dinner with Future Trunks was one of the best downtime episodes in the series. It was a weird fleeting instance of the series actually having a really good, solid grasp on Gohan's character for a bit, and even in the mess of an arc that was the Goku Black saga, it was really refreshing to see.
I wish I had his Dragonball and Naruto stuff backed up via my hard drive, I rarely if ever have internet and these videos - especially the Naruto self made video, make me laugh every time I see them. And I rarely get to laugh
Not really gohan has said time and time again that his dream was to be a scholar,yes his mother encouraged him more,but he coulda changed his dreams easily the moment that goku died and cell never came back after exploding.his character would of changed and instead of being a scholar he would turn into a future gohan.
@@cringekiller348 yeah back then he was young and impressionable but after the frieza saga he definitely had a change in heart about fighting even piccolo knew about this. The show portrayed gohan to have a gentle soul not to take too much from his saiyan heritage. He even kept yelling cell to stop the fight, he didn’t want to do it anymore
This version of Adult Gohan is sick. I can imagine all the cool things he could do for the Dragonball Universe. Like, being the one people turn to to find the latest enemies' weaknesses, discovering Ki secrets that let human characters power up to a relevant level again, maybe even letting an enemy that's on the edge live and recover just like his dad would, but this time it's instead to study it rather than have it be a good fighting challenge.
And maybe he trains or develops new shit with Tenshinhan sometimes! He, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu bonding together over that shit on the side wouldn't be a bad thing.
I don't know whether you'll see this or not, but whatever: this is gold man. Seriously. It's such a compelling character study of a character in a show one might not think so profoundly about. Replaying it, just 40 seconds in you've essentially gotten down: "Gohan's always worn a mask. The son of Goku has always been someone else's project". So fucking good. I hope you continue to do more of these, be it with Dragon Ball or Naruto or otherwise. In all honesty, watching these has helped me with my own writing. I've always had a fear of writing contrived or generic stories. This has been a great exercise in imagination. Thank you.
"You have three faces. The first face, you show to the world The second face, you show to your close friends, and your family The third face, you never show anyone" *-Unknown*
@@floppytokey as mentioned, it's a proverb. It may also have been popularised by the novel Shogun by James Clavell, it was quoted in that and that book is very famous.
The rewrite you made for Gohan is excellent and would fix his character, but that's too mature, too good for Dragonball, really. Even at its very best, the writing of Dragonball never approached something so deep and fundamental as what you described and would even feel out of place, if the rest of the series was still as it is. The rewrite would, sadly, only work if the rest of the show had been written in the same way and tone, with the same level of maturity and insight.
There is always the possibility that after Toriyama dies or washes his hands completely of the series he never really cared about to begin with. A proper reboot of the entire series could work.
Watching this whole thing made me realize something. Gohan being an extension of what people wanted out of Goku, being a powerful fighter. Its also another problem in anime, whether its something that's part of the story or a problem with the fans, we have this expectation of this child of the main character that is strong to be strong. Because of that, if they don't fulfill our expectations then we hate them. Take a character like Metal Lee, he is Rock Lee's son, he strong and uses Taijutsu and can even use Ninjutsu if he wants. However, he has a problem with anxiety that's usually played for laughs, and he freezes up. Despite that being a natural thing that separates his from his father, as well as being a genuine flaw in real life, people hate him, because he's not this confident man that Lee or Gai was, even though its not stated he's supposed to be.
I've always had mixed feelings on Gohan not living up to his potential. I think what it boils down to is that in a fighting series, you want everyone to reach their full potential even if you can't fairly blame them for wanting a peaceful life.
I am an aspiring writer, and the structure of the story im currently trying to write has changed so much just by watching these incredibly informative (and delightfully cringe) videos on narrative structure. My work has evolved from a conglomerate pile of clichés and self inserts to a story Im sincerely excited to write, and I have these videos to thank for it.
I really enjoyed this break down of Gohan's character. And your fan fanfic was great! And like all great fanfics it will never be fully realized. It's your fault for not living Japan in 1980's and giving him editorial notes.
Which we can probably attribute to him being a saiyan. It's a lot less ridiculous that he isn't riddled with Heinz' 57 Varieties of PTSD since he's not a pure human.
"Lol don't mind me, just fixing Gohan's entire character" - Plague Seriously though this was good, although I don't see how your version of Gohan can't be main character material after cell, but eh. Goku should have stayed dead with Vegeta so they could have their own little side stories in the afterlife
I think one thing worth considering.. In the original broadcast, Gohan got a LOT of filler focused around him. Including an entire filler only arc between Freeza and Androids where he is the power player. His filler is all.. remarkably well constructed in a way that would make you scoff at the idea it was filler at all. I certainly never realized it till years later when I got ahold of some of the manga. He gets a lot of genuine characterization and flavor through them. The original broadcast also embellishes some of the canon moments a bit in a way the manga simply.. glossed over. When cut faithful to the manga, DBZ Gohan really is just a plot device. Which is what you get in Kai. Which is probably the definitive version of DBZ now. But it does mean an entire generation of DBZ watchers were baited in to thinking there was some kind of actual baton pass being built up to. Gohan has THE MOST CHARACTER PROGRESSION AND SCREEN TIME of any character by several orders. It's one of the biggest bait and switch scams in anime history. No wonder people were confused when the series went back on it at the final hour. Not kidding. Unironnically. Some of the initial Z only filler was very touching. Piccolo And Gohan get more touching moments Kai/Manga don't get. There's also an entire miniarc before the saiyans arrive with Gohan meeting and saving some kids and deciding to go back to training. But none of it was ever real.
Shit, I'm starting to realize everything I love about DB is because of someone I don't know the name of who was very good at adding 10 second character moments among everything constantly that likely has had nothing to do with DB for 30 years. Three lines of dialogue between characters here and there that add so much magic that were never real. I guess it also makes sense what happened to DB Super. Nothing happened. That's just how DB is, isn't it? Even goku comes off as less of a sociopath thanks to filler. Like he actually cares about other people. But it's fake. Well, at least I can leave DB to the zoomers at last.
I love that you brought up Gohan's book from _Dragon Ball Online_ . Ever since I heard about it years ago, I've always had that as my mental image of what Gohan should be. Not a fighter, or a scholar, but a teacher. It feels like a natural progression from his time teaching Videl about ki. For the first time in his life, he's found a way to combine the two seemingly incompatible parts of his upbringing into something truly his own. Combined with his first experience teaching being with the girl he would eventually fall in love with, and it just feels right.
I had a different perspective on Gohan as a character. For me he wasn't some McGuffin device for others to use, he wasn't some comfort branding with an added cool factor for people to empathize with. Instead, I really pity Gohan's life and all of the experiences he had. An impressionable boy born under the pressure of his mother to become a scholar and forced into fighting. Gohan gets kidnapped and borderline tortured by piccolo at the age of four and then see's him murdered along with many other seasoned fighters in front of his eyes. He's still 4 and all of the following events happened within a month. But Gohan doesn't look traumatized or feel the weight of these deaths because he never even had a chance to cope with the constant murder because before Yamcha was killed, he never experienced it first hand. Gohan was never given the chance to be a human character because he was never completely human, to begin with. I believe Gohan doesn't get a sense of how strong he is until he leaves Namek. When Gohan does come back to Earth he fights Vegeta believing that if he can overpower a galactic emperor then, he might be able to beat Vegeta in a fair fight. Gohan is pretty intelligent for his age but he's also Naive and doesn't understand that he still a kid with no fighting experience because he doesn't understand what it's like to be a kid. He was born a child soldier. Now If you made it this far I want to be very clear. I don't defend Gohan's far-fetched boost of power. But I do disagree that Gohan's power increase was without reason. It's sprinkled a lot within the series that Gohan has a ridiculous amount of latent power. Gohan's arc is poorly executed in the anime but I believe it's a little too much to call him just a plot device when he has a lot to show for his character. He has mannerisms, likes, and dislikes, he was faced with some of the most difficult choices as a child. I think you can see what I'm coming from when you think about everything that Gohan didn't do. During the Saiyan saga, Gohan is just a child soldier. After a traumatizing battle where many people, including his master/kidnapper, is killed. Gohan makes the decision to go to Namek in spite of his mother's disagreement. He didn't have to, but he chose to because in his eyes both Goku and Piccolo died for his sake. The least he could do is bring him back. Gohan never had to save Dende, He didn't have to fight Vegeta after Namek. And I think Piccolo really puts the nail in the coffin during the Cell Saga when he explains to Goku that Gohan honestly doesn't know what he wants because he wasn't born a fighter. He literally doesn't comprehend why he has to fight Cell. He only wanted to help his father become a stronger person, something that resonates deeply within Goku's character. To summarize I don't think it's fair to blame Gohan when really he never knew any better. He wasn't trying to get stronger, he was just in a rage during his encounters which resulted in him becoming stronger not because of it.
As a Gohan fan, I honestly WISH more people would look at him the same way most people think of Tien or Krillin. I also agree 10000 percent with your assessment with how people project onto Gohan. I notice the same thing a great deal with other "child sidekick" characters in other media as well. To many people are personally invested in this projection of a realised power fantasy they have imprinted on the character, not allowing him room to be his own man. At the end of the day, he is a character that is meant to represent the balance between responsibility and personal passion. EDIT: I take you you also watch MistareFusion? Guys channel is great! EDIT 2: 10000% Agree that trying to force Gohan to be the main character is a MASSIVE mistake and shows a lack of proper understanding of the relationship between character and narrative.
52:00 how has gohan graduated high school, graduated college presumably, gotten married, and had a kid yet Goten hasn't really changed at all same with trunks lol
@@colindowden2182 You're acting like it's impossible for siblings to grow at different rates. Goku was short most of his young life, I don't see why it would be surprising that one of his kids could take after that trait. If Goku grew throughout Dragonball and Goten was still like this, then yeah it'd be weird but as it stands it's just something to expect.
@@SalvadorDolbyvsZAWARUDO Or could just be Akira not giving a shit and fyi you're not comparing real life to dbz cause there isn't a person who look like a kid and suddenly get taller cause that's not how puberty work and l should know since l read a science text book.
You would think after fighting the mother of all bugmonsters he would not ever want to look at an insect ever again. I guess he is stilk trying to figure out how the hell that abomination ever came to life.
He's interested in bugs through out the series honestly. He's always stopping to check out butterflies and he is reading a book on cicadas in the dead zone movie
@@mauricesteel4995 Disecting insects is probs Cathartic. That ain't his Saiyan genetics talking, that would be the fact that he is part Chi Chi. Haha, Chi Chi bad. Pls laugh.
The idea that mangaka needs to keep pumping out a new chapter every week needs to end, give creators a chance to think over their ideas instead of rushing them.
![Power Levels are Stupid [DBG #2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uPwVuC3YOrc/mqdefault.jpg)
"I am a 200 year old Lich, here to talk to you about anime."
I mean, I always kinda assumed that anyway, Plague.
Holy shit that means Plague is younger than I am. He was born in 1982. I was born in 1979. I guess that makes ME an 800-year-old vampire.
Begone, specter! The world belongs to the youthful skeletons now!
Honestly I would've been more surprised if it wasn't the case
@@PlagueOfGripes where is gripeballs timetravel episode.
Sorry for the bad English
@PlagueOfGripes
Good job and the Version of gohan you described sounds way better than what we got...
I'm glad you brought up Goku and Gohan's relationships with combat. It made me realise that Goku really must directly associate casual fighting with love. His grandfather, the only person he knew for over a decade, taught him martial arts the entire time. His upbringing by the only person he loved until he made friends in Dragon Ball was integrally linked to martial arts and said martial arts are the reason Goku met his friends, his wife and eventually his children. Beyond just the saiyan compulsion to fight, Goku believes martial arts are the direct cause of his happiness and all the love in his life. Of course he thinks Gohan would enjoy fighting, it's synonymous with love to him and he loves his son with all his big dumb monkey heart.
This is so cute. I love Goku.
Giggly Fox I dont. Yeah, his heart is in the right place but Goku has the intelligence of a gnat.
Logically, Gohan tries to avoid combat. In TFS they took this one step further by making him a pacifist
Yet Goku doesn’t get it. Just because Gohan succeeded doesn’t mean this event was horribly unethical and negligent decision.
I dont care about DB too much but this was probably the biggest reason why I rarely rewatch even scenes of DBZ.
Ironic because Piccolo somehow is the only gets this. And he has done far more physical damage to gohan then Goku has.
Of course Goku isn't smart. He's a hick who lived in the mountains, was never given a formal education, even as an adult. He knows noting about societal norms, culture, or how to be a proper parent.
All Goku knows is fighting and farming, and the farming was something taught to him as training for martial arts.
Hating Goku because he's dumb is like hating someone with a mental disorder. They had no choice being the way they are.
TheDom275 You’re profile picture turns me on to much to take you seriously~.
All of his friends tried to kill him at one point… he must think fighting is the first step to friendship
"The closest thing he got to a friend is his father's best friend."
"He dies."
Pure. Gold.
@asian dude The bald midget with no nose.
@@corneliusdelasoto3955 don't bring my cousin into this fam
@@CeroAshura Sheesh. I can imagine what the rest of your family look like.
I didn't take this as a comical bit in Plague's script. Just emphasis on what a shitty life Gohan has had up until that point. No actual friends, and the closest one is just an older man who's sort of like an uncle to him
@@king_big_pp That's where the humor comes from.
Fun fact: the band Linkin Park was formed with only a single purpose, to make soundtracks for Gohan's AMV's.
he’s one step closer to the edge.
is that true ?
@@hiruyabebaw807 ofcourse not, would be cool tho
@@hiruyabebaw807
It says fun fact, so it musy be true.
As Linkin Park's biggest fan (Ha I'm sure someone has probably sacrificed every single thing for some merch or to go to concerts so-), I can confirm this is true.
The rewritten version of Goku's death and it NOT being a SSJ trigger for Gohan absolutely gutted me, holy shit. I love that idea so much that it makes me sad it's not real. Weekly deadline publishing is the equivalent of giving a chef five minutes to prepare one part of a dish, eating whatever state it's in and demanding the next course.
Perfect... and then I could accuse them of just JoJo'ing the series
@@iller3 JoJoing would be far better than what z, gt and super ever did.
I don't think Deadlines are a problem with a Toriyama. They did not help but it is clear he is just not good at somethings. Backstory and introspective character moments not really one of those things.
@@iller3 Prior to Steel Ball Run Araki was working under a strenuous schedule too. He just tended to be better at writing characters that, even if not written WELL, are written convincingly.
@WoolieVersus Too fucking true, the idea of Gohan being conflicted with not being angry enough at Gokus death and feeling some resentment towards him at the same time would be fucking mind blowing in DB, The amount of impact and depth would increase ten-fold.
The idea of Cell sending out his Jrs to absorb all living life to gain more power is a great idea and kind of terrifying.
It makes me wonder why Imperfect Cell even stopped absorbing people in the first place. He could have absorbed a third of the world before anyone could really stop him or prevent him from doing so. I get he wanted just enough power to capture Androids 17 & 18, but why stop there?
Edit: Honestly, I just like "Imperfect" Cells form vastly better than his Final form and Semi-perfect form. A big bug monster that's neither machine-like nor humanoid, yet somehow also both. The ultimate creation of science gone wrong. You're "Perfect" in my eyes, even with that weird ass mouth beak, First Form Cell.
I think just because of diminishing returns, plus his programming. He's now strong enough to do the thing he was designed to do, so anything past that is a relative waste of time compared to absorbing the androids.
Duncan Trice That should have actually happened and honestly everything he changed about the Cell saga, see this is why everyone says Gohan should have been the main character.
That bit of Frieza in him must have said “I’m strong enough now”
That Cell idea would be less Frieza and more Lavos.
One thing I always found weird with Gohan was his portrayal as a smarter character. Despite this, all of his fights play out as if it was Goku fighting. Gohan had the potential to introduce tactics to the fight, overpower enemies not through bullshit transformations or fusions or whatever but through cunning and strategy. Learn his opponent, use their weakness. That sort of shit. He very easily could have been used to disprove the issue that "Big Numbers matter the most" that Dragon Ball fell into.
Never happens.
well honestly with cell he kind of did use cell's weaknesses being his cockiness and look how that ended up and he was just taunting buu's simple mind trying to provoke him basically
I don't see where there's room anymore for strategy in Z unless we retcon a new magic system into the series. Like, you can't use land in any meaningful way; I'm not even sure Lava could hurt them, and hiding behind stuff is useless when you can just sense whoever whenever. You can psyche out your opponents by feinting Ki blasts, I guess, but that's still not much. You could add in techniques that lower power or something, but that just ties back into the retconning point. Like, the only thing you really can do is play mind games on a character, and you have to wonder how effective that is when some characters have telepathy.
@@laststrike4411 One moment that comes to mind is when Goku hides the ki blasts under water as decoys to get the jump on Frieza. That was a definite highlight of that overdrawn and boring fight, but that falls into your point of feigning ki blasts being pretty much the only reliable thoughtful tactic in a universe where your location and every move can be sensed by your opponent due to the power level system. Although fighting has been the primary focus of DragonBall since the end of the Pilaf arc, the world-building and various characters are what made the original series so great but the focus on that aspect has shifted over the years into generic chest-beating contests with aliens. The dialogue in Z and beyond doesn't hold a candle to what the original offered and it's really a shame.
@@laststrike4411 I mean yeah its too far gone now. Both literally and in a cooperate sense.
@@supamarioisbeast The moment in the Vegeta vs Zarbon fight when Vegeta covertly grabs some dirt from the ground and lets it drop into Zarbon's eyes as he's chasing him was a great little tactical moment as well
Fun fact, I watched the Gohan SSJ2 transformation before watching anything else on Dragon Ball, and I automatically assumed that Android 16 and Gohan had been made friends of some sort; maybe even that Android 16 was considered a “good Android” because of a friendship with Gohan. I was then shocked to realize that this wasn’t the case in the slightest, and that the two had literally never even met
I mean 16 speech still works but yeah I was surprised about that to
Funny enough my first introduction to that scene was through Dragon ball Z Kakarot which also had a side mission that involved 16 and Gohan and that's why I thought they knew eachother prior to the fight, surprised me too when I found out they've never even heard of eachother before
Same
This is the prime example of "brilliant scene ......... too bad it didn't have any set up whatsoever so it loses 90% of what would make it work"
That was almost my case, i had just gotten into dragon ball, like, 2 weeks prior, and i knew basically nothing, just the actual most basic things, like goku and vegeta, and the dragon balls, then when i saw this scene, i thought the same thing as you, 5 years later, i can say that wasn't the case
"Seeking peace isn't enough, Mr. Popo. I need the strength to end conflicts so that good people aren't hurt!" -Gohan. "Welcome to the Room of Infinite Bullshit!" -Mr. Popo
"Pecking order" - best version of Mr Popo
45:10 Cell absorbing one of the Juniors could also hit a nerve with Gohan because here he could see the absolute extreme of a “father” using up the life of a “child” just for the use as a tool to get what the “father” wanted
I think cell does casually murder one
@@tarfielarchelone2674 that is incorrect. Gohan kills all of them.
@@akiraishin7141 your right that was some well drawn fan panel I saw. (Also they aren't dead they are currently used as plot devices to explain how 17 got so strong)
thats a stretch man
Cell jrs are quite insane considering they are just as strong as normal cell (unless the original japanese version treated it differently)
So he would just end up twice as powerful..and could do it nonstop aswell
I'll admit, your Cell Saga Gohan rewrite got me a little choked up. Well done.
Same. it was surprisingly good. It got the emotional hooks where they need to be, to be properly twisted.
Same, it's a tragedy we didn't something with actual weight to it
Yes, exactly. And the Buu Saga rewrite implications were great, too. If continued, I would extrapolate DBS Gohan as a 'good' version of SDBH's Fuu: A scientist who is fascinated by the universe and by life's source of power. As an extension, Gohan could be on his way to becoming a Kaioshin. His resentment for needless destruction and search for meaning and understanding would match that perfectly. It would also build him up as an interesting counterpart to Goku/Vegeta, who are arguably in training for becoming a God of Destruction. So much wasted potential here...
Yeah, I especially liked how smart Plague went about weaving in Android 16.
Having him as a parallel to Gohan works smoothly, both in terms of being expected or even forced to fill a certain role, as well as a curiosity towards life.
If nothing else, this would make for an awesome pitch of a fan project retelling the Cell Saga like this.
Holy crap, the Android 16 not being able to be wished back and that fact of him being lost forever triggering gohan is really a breathtaking idea
Its too bad the actual story and manga/anime never utilizes this obviously appropriate narrative choice.
@@LordMalice6d9 Yeah, because it was a weekly release back then. With little time for Akira Toriyama to plan ahead.
Call cap like they can bring 16 back either wish for the chip to be restored to the state it was before it was destroyed or literally just wish him back to the point before the cell games started you can make this even easier by just bringing back the body and the chip but not the power that came with it so Shenron can easily do it
@@sai1737 The guy is a robot, Bulma SHOULD have his frame and data almost completely identical, all they need to do is make the body, and make shenron create an identical memory to the one he had prior to being killed and insert it on the new body.
@@streptococo4735 so basically what I just said
A true fan isn't afraid to criticize and offer alternatives or better paths.
Thanks for making this video.
Now if only other fandoms could learn this. Eli was right about people identifying so strongly with something that even the smallest amount of criticism or opinions that differ from the hive mind might as well be a personalized insult to everyone that likes the thing. That and people just associate different options with "cynicism and negativity". This is one of the biggest reasons I dropped Steven universe. Got really tired of walking on eggshells talking about the shows flaws without getting hate for it.
"True fan" isn't a very good ideal to seek after anyway. It's a fuel for No True Scotsman arguments at best. Being a good critic and analytic thinker of media is a better way to put it in my opinion. I agree with the rest of your statement.
@@Maxim0M1 While "True fan" Isn't ideal neither is the word "Critic". Both carry a stigma that is not entirely true. In my opinion a person is a fan of something if they truly enjoy it. A "true" fan will be accepting of other's ideas and view points on a topic as well while being able to respectfully explain their thoughts and opinions on matters. Effectively, they combine the rolls of a fan and a critic and bring out their concerns in a respectable manner. That said, I appreciate you explaining your view point on the matter as well.
@@anasiss1992 "True Fan" doesn't mean anything. There's no agreed upon meaning for it. That's why it's usually the topic of many No True Scotsman fallacies. I guess critical thinker is better. Basically, it's the idea that you're able to stop your affection for something from clouding your vision and judgement.
@@Maxim0M1 I did state that it was an opinion on a meaning. Besides, if you truly care about something you'd want it to get better or maintain a certain level of quality. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to point out we're saying the same thing just in different ways. Also, my opinion of a true fan takes this fallacy into account. It's not so much as an appeal to purity as you make it out to be. No one is free from being criticized, every one is a critic after all. It's why i say a true fan isn't afraid to criticize the thing they are a fan of. You need to accept that other people have differing opinions and neither are really right or wrong at the end of the day. We can agree that Gohan got the short end of the stick in terms of development, and we agree that his arc could use improvement. Some people may argue how it should be improved while others will say it doesn't. We don't have to agree on everything but we need to at least understand and respect where the other is coming from. Right or wrong, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that a true fan will do everything a critical thinker would do because they care. You can still care about something and set aside nostalgia to critique it.
Before the video: I never liked Gohan.
During the video: poor kid wasn't allowed to be his own person. I feel bad for him.
I always like Gohan for that. No one understood this, but the kid didn’t get to exist as his own person. He was always “Gokus Son”
There is no contradiction there.
Same
He doesn't like Gohan because he likes the concept of what Gohan could have been, not what he actually is.
Duncan Trice Yeah Chi Chi wants him to be a scholar while Goku wants him to be a fighter but Gohan struggles deciding how to be his own person and not like his father.
Awesome AWESOME video
If you're not Mark then who are you?
@@robertfullchim923 Sogeking obviously
I see someone was paid off.
@@no_player_commentary honestly his pfp always looked like gohan to me
_smooch_
So what you're saying is that he could have been like his biological grandfather-- an average fighter but a brilliant scientist.
Bardock? The scientist?
Tony Ramírez bardock. The scientist.
Tony Ramírez The Very same.
Tony Ramírez Ox King? The scientist?
@RectalDiscourse I DO!
(do I win anything for answering that question?)
The most solid evidence I can point to Toriyama never having the slightest idea what to do with Gohan in any given situation is the fact that there are two different parts of the story, in two different arcs, where Gohan proves himself to be utterly useless in the current battle, goes to visit a mystical old man who magically draws out "the maximum potential" of his strength, returns to the battle, and then still fails to make any impact on the outcome of the fight. This exact sequence of events happens *twice*.
You make a good point, and it goes to show how the Buu Arc is definitely the nadir of Gohan's career (before Super). He's the focal character from the outset, much like on Namek, gets told that he needs to regain his fighter's instinct, goes to train with the Z-Sword, awakens his ultimate potential... and then gets absorbed by Buu. Then when he's saved, he immediately dies and his only contribution to the end of the series at that point is raising his hand to the sky after he's wished back to life so that his father can handle everything again.
That's because Gohan was only there to be the character little kids could attach themselves onto when they start with Z. Since everyone else in the cast is an adult by then.
Gohan only exists for little kids to have a power fantasy, that's all his character is there for.
Goten and Kid Trunks took that role in the Buu Saga, while Gohan took the role of the guy who has a lot of potential and power, but doesn't want to use it or has other ambitions than fighting.
In Super he actually gets good character development by realising that he is needed as a fighter in order to protect his family and can't just rely on Goku and Vegeta for everything, which is why he asks Piccolo to train him again.
As a wise future-seeing alien once said, 'Gohan becomes the strongest in the universe but still doesn't do crap.'
@@TheAzulmagia The worst part about that is that it was the one point in that arc where having him there actually *WOULD* have solved everything, and it happened due to the usual week to week short-sighted writing Toriyama did. Like, Gohan and the others dying when Earth got blown up was only so that there'd be actual tension in the battle with Buu, since Gohan would have stomped his pure form easily and in either case it wouldn't make sense for him to sit by whilst Goku fought, since he was stronger than Goku at the time. So why did they not go get him immediately once the Earth came back? That oversight just puts the final nail in his coffin as a useful character
Here's the issue with that. Gohan was a child at that point, and one of the weakest power wise and experience wise. Gohan's strongest moment in the frieza arc was distracting frieza long enough for Goku to get back in the game. That is actually growth. It shows Gohan is not a cowardly child now. He's not expected to win, but survive. From there, he still needs more growth. And Cell saga fails at that. And then Buu saga had something but abandoned it
Whats funny is that one of the most prototypical "self insert" characters, Spider-Man, actually does a good job about subverting whats wrong with a lot of these characters.
Peter's a nerdy boy that nobody understands, but he's also kind of an asshole in the original series, even after Uncle Ben's death. He can be selfish, manipulative, and cocky about his powers, he has a superiority complex and wants to beat the shit out of his bullies but is only held back by his guilt, and when he does finally go all out it's not considered a good thing. Like there's one story where Peter gets into a boxing match with Flash Thompson and its starts out like "Yeah, Peter's gonna get back at his bully" but as time goes on it comes across kinda weird, and Peter nearly kills Flash by smashing him through the ropes, and Peter freaks out realizing he's going to far and holds back as much as he wants, and even when he wins people assume it's a sucker punch and they insult Peter for cheating... which he was. Even the idea of being a Superhero that can save people is shown not to be a great escapist fantasy, but a extremely dangerous profession that constantly interferes with Peter's life and ruins most of his relationships and makes him even more of a loner. It doesn't even really help with his bullying, as he's still considered a little loser in his High School, and only gets better by the time he's in College where he personally goes through character development t break out of his shell and become friends with people.
And his bully Flash Thompson isn't a completely one dimensional stereotype either, he's got flaws and he's an asshole, but he's also regretful at times to what he does to Peter, and admits that it's mostly peer pressure and Peter blowing off Flash when he tries to be nice. He's got redeeming qualities like respecting Spider-Man, trying his best to help people, and even sticking his neck out and fighting criminals to save Spider-Man's image only to nearly get himself killed over it. One time Peter attacked him after he teased him, and Peter actually owned up to the mistake and said that he started the fight when they got into trouble, only for Flash to come and take the fall because he didn't want Peter to get into trouble for his mistake. This even culminates in them becoming good friends in College and Adult life.
It's kinda strange that the benchmark for all "Nerdy Superpower'd Teenaged Self Inserts" is one of the more realistic takes on the trope.
Even more remarkable about Spider-man is that when the idea of a teenage superhero was first proposed, most people thought it couldn't be done, nobody would relate to such a character, a teenager would be a complete disaster as a superhero. Well yeah, that was the point; Spider-Man was never supposed to be this amazing champion right off the bat like all superheroes were before his inception. Young people would see Peter Parker and think about their own problems, realize it's okay to not be perfect the moment you get a chance to do something, but also don't let your issues define who you are.
Wow. I would like to read about this, I never really got into comics but the Spider Man you describe seems really awesome and well written.
I’d recommend the early Ditko/Lee issues all the way through Romita Sr era to really get to see how Peter evolves as a person. It’s one of the best overarching comics all the way from the 60’s-mid 80’s and it’s only been really done justice by Spectacular Spider-Man. Even the Raimi movies deviate a bit by making Peter slightly more passive.
@@AVGNROCKS1996 Oh so Spectacular Spider Man is a pretty acurate portrayal of the original Spider Man?
Absolutely, it really nails Peter being a multidimensional character and having to grow into a more mature man who gets over his own superiority complex.
It’s especially gets Flash right and shows him as a guy that’s a jerk, but can mean well when he needs to. There’s even a great moment where he actually calls out Pete on his bullshit, but I won’t spoil it. Check it out.
Ironically, despite you disliking the idea of bullshit power-ups, your Gohan would've been ideal candidate to awaken Ultra Instinct.
Imagine that Gohan decided to go against the idea of SSJ, he developed his own method of training and he found out that raw power isn't the answer, being calm, collected and focused was the key all along.
Then as the story progress past tournament of power, Gohan could've thaught his technique to humans, as this "transformation" doesn't require saiyan blood, but presence of mind.
That would have been a great way to combat power creep.
And then Gohan blows up because he wouldn't be strong enough to handle the limit breaking power of the gods.
@@yagirlmayalazarus6713 They're talking about GOOD writing.
Thing is dude this idea of yours is good, but more importantly it's smart and cohesive. The dragon ball series is nothing like this idea. It's not smart, makes little sense and it plays with nostalgia and fanservice.
Come to think of it if anything this video has shown me how much dragon ball plays with expectation and manipulates it's audience for marketing purposes
How can Dragon Ball play with nostalgia when nothing came before it? It's not like most of us were there for Journey to the West.
I like how the book Videl gives Gohan is “Muzukashii Hon” which just means “Difficult Book” 😂😂😂. Couldn’t even give him an interesting topic to study, it’s just “difficult”
hey at least it warns people, like if the title of homer's oddessy or something warned people that it would be long I wouldn't complain.
@@shady8045 "I Hate You, Read This," by Fyodor Dostoevsky 😂
@@sporeceress1465😂😂 that’s really all it is isn’t it? Maybe Videl is sending a message 😂
Why are people in doubt of Gohan being smart? He marries the cute tomboy girl, that's a genius move right there.
Not much left of that, after he was done with her
@@Siamzero1994 tbh videl was an awesome character. She getting sidelined hurt me so much. I really liked her and her fight against spopowitch is one of my Favorites
but he also told her to cut her hair, not a genius move that one
@@Rislear it is. For Combat it is a smart move
Screw her because she's there!
This hurts a little, I dont know if you guys know but the voice actor for grown gohan got murdered here in México....may he rest in peace.
That's sad man!
Wow, when did that happen??
I had heard he'd died recently, prior to the video going public. I wasn't aware he was a victim of violence. Apparently along with his wife, in-law and another VA. Really terrible.
@@legendarymarston9174 looks like a few days ago, internet says fight over ownership of a property
@@bellial974 Poor guy...
Your Gohan has a lot of reasons to hate martial arts and have a grudge against his father, but I like how he doesn't quit. Instead of quitting, he tries to understand martial arts in relation to philosophy, science, and life. This study could also be one way for Gohan to understand Goku and reconcile their relationship.
Kind of like... almost like the spiritual aspect of martial arts, maybe? While Goku is more about the competitive and/or physical improvement aspects? And while Piccolo & Vegeta are more about the military aspects, and the nature of power?
The weirdest part of all of this is Roshi, despite being a walking pervert stereotype does have the wise master aspect to help guide Gohan. I remember when Roshi as Jackie managed to defeat Tien not through violence, but through words
@@InfernosReaper Master Roshi best character
@@samthebagman4643 Definitely the most rounded realistic DBZ character. He has faults, strengths, and the ability to help others and understand them.
Dude, I love the idea of characters being warrior-scholars. I dont watch DBZ (just like watching dissections and whatnot), is there any existing character that fits the bill? (Aside from Roshi, I mean active characters) If not, then maybe an addition to that would be quite interesting. Gripes talked about how DBS tried doing away with power levels and, instead, look for creative fighting (though it didnt quite manage that). A warrior-scholar would've been in his turf here
The statement about Gohan "figuring out mysteries" got my gnoggin joggin, and it made me come up with a tentative reason why saiyan hybrids would be so strong. None of this is based in canon, its entirely throwing idea's out into the void.
My idea would be that, essentially, Saiyans are big walking ki generator's, and humans are big walking ki batteries.
Saiyans lived on a hellworld, with high gravity, and lived their entire lives to fight. So they adapted as such. High metabolism and eating mountains of food at a time means they burn through a lot of energy in a short amount of time, its why saiyans seem so hyperactive and raring to go at all times. If they're not fighting they're training, because they're constantly outputting energy and it needs to go somewhere. Like a toddler on an eternal sugar high, you need to wear them out or they will never sleep.
Humans, meanwhile, also kind of live on a horror world. But in their case the solution wasn't to fight constantly, but rather to survive a long while. They eat where they can because food isn't guranteed, and have more stamina then any other creature on the planet so that they can either outrun the bigger bastards or bring them down in the famous "slowly follow them for days at a time till they just die" trick.
This is why on the surface level, saiyans are so powerful. They're constantly outputting energy of all kinds, especially ki, and training their bodies just lets them release more of it at a time. A saiyan has no layers to their power, its all out or its not out. A super saiyan transformation is literally jsut them morphing their bodies to be able to handle a greater energy output. If they were generators with an output dial from 1-10, training would be pushing that dial slowly from 11 to 20, then past that, and super saiyan would be upgrading the generator all together and starting again from the 1-10 dial.
Humans meanwhile seem to have greater emphasis on hidden power, or stored power. They don't output nearly as much energy as saiyans, because thats a waste of energy that could be used on more important things, so their bodies just absorb any excess they don't use, gaining fat, or muscle, stuff like that. In ki terms, that would be locking away whatever they don't use to not die in their little ki vaults that the Elder Guru or the Elder Kai has the keys for.
So in this little headcanon i've developed, Goku would always be able to fight on a better level then Krillin, he can just output more energy, but Krillin despite that would be able to fight for longer amounts of time, constantly chipping away or annoying Frieza while all the heavy hitters actually fight him and then lose to his next transformation, but its also why a saiyan can bounce back from injuries or exhaustion better.
In which case, half breeds like Gohan would be a perfect mixture.
As a saiyan he'd be constantly outputting metric shittons of energy, and as a human he'd be storing and locking away that very same power inside himself for emergencies. E.G. whenever he snaps and enters a rage boost, that's like, a years worth of energy being launched out in a moments notice. The Elder can somewhat unlock that hidden power, but its like a river. Even if you let the energy being stored flow out again its still being filled again and again over and over. He gets the training benefit of both races, expanding that store of energy he can tap into and also expanding the amount of energy he can use and generate, he'd have way more growth then either race would have just by themselves.
It's 5am, these've been my incoherent ramblings about a childrens cartoon i care too much about.
Nice
I love this
This is Hunter X Hunter levels of text dump, I can see it in my mind's eye esp for the recent chapters
This was a great read, I enjoyed your theory
I rarely say this about Dragon Ball fanfic, but this needs to be Canon
The rewrite having Gohan faced with being a weapon, and a 'soulless puppet', I felt that. In fact, that's a perfect trigger for snapping. If he's a weapon, fine. Cell just made himself the target. It's sort of like how no one seemed to think, in series, that making a disturbed child the strongest could have turned out really bad if he say, actually killed Cell and then, in the Super Saiyan 2 rage high, decided he was in charge now, no more of the universe's bullshit. Like he immediately goes after Vegeta for what happened in the past. Saiyans are not very nice, after all. In that kind of murderous state he could have become exactly what they wanted, with the drawbacks included.
This makes me think of Aang and how one of his masters was trying to keep Aang mentally stable and able to still experience the joys of his childhood, whereas the other one is like, "No, we don't have time for that. The world needs the Avatar. He needs to train harder." and stuff like that.
Or how Jasper was considered the perfect gem and the perfect warrior but other than being a large tank, she was never actually treated like a person. Only a weapon.
Same thing with Mina. Solaria did arguably take her out of her peasant role to fight monsters, but that's _all_ she cared about. Turning the girl into a blood knight. She didn't actually care about Mina the person, or Mina's mental health or well-being.
i see the more important trigger being the line "there is no "life" to wish back" regarding 16. similar to how goku's transformation was triggered by krillin's SECOND death and the belief that he couldn't be wished back, the straw that breaks gohan's back would be his realization that 16 could never be wished back (except this time he ACTUALLY can't be wished back)
When you think about it, yeah, Gohan was really kept from becoming his own person from the beginning.
He’s the child of an overbearing mother who was raised in the woods, and an alien with brain damage who was conditioned to associate violence with affection.
Goku isn't inherently a violent individual. If you don't want to fight him he respects that. Hell Goku is actually known for sparring his opponents to the point of absurdity. Goku only became this fight obsessed weirdo in super.
@@ASHtheSLUGCAT His single overarching goal throughout the entire series is to encounter the best fighters in the whole world and become stronger in the process (so he can fight new people).
That’s why he doesn’t kill most of his enemies. They fought him, they failed, maybe they’ll fight him again later.
Man I've always hated ChiChi
@@Chrisstampf You should hate Goku too.
Well, what coherent person wouldn't?
But i at least think that if Gohan wouldn't wanted to be nor a """"scholar"""" nor a fighter at least goku would understand(? While ChiChi would blast the fuck out of her head and go crazy, anyway yeah, goku's a shithead
"Everyone in the series should have PTSD and be a walking mess of complexes if we were taking all of this seriously."
Goddamn it, now i want Dragon Ball: Evangelion Edition.
Make fun of Naruto: LOTS OF DEATH THREATS.
Sexualize Pokemon: UNIVERSAL PRAISE!!!
You've got some experience in these fields don't you, Plague?
I remember his video on Naruto, and boy the dislikes are on par with the likes.
Well Naruto IS shit to be honest. Along with One Piece
@@rav-7072 I like Naruto, and even I know it has A LOT of problems as well as one piece and dragon ball. Bleach... It's been a long time since I've seen the anime.
well, i did say several months ago that if game freak made h games they would have been legendary.
@@rav-7072 One Piece is great, but Naruto is crap though.
I want to imagine a future where Gohan is a "Ki Scientist" with his hot wife Videl as his #1 Study Buddy (See also: Wife), and they just do crazy bullshit with Ki. Like that thing with Roshi? I wanna see Videl pull that off, and then them messing with it based on trunk's "Muscle mode" he tried to use against Cell. Imagine Roshi seeing Goku's son improve on his move, and have mastered it enough to be able to explain simply.
Gohan. Also known as "Dr Fist"
Dr. Fist, dean of the School of Hard Knocks?
Last bit caused me to bite down on a laugh so hard my family thought I was choking. Bravo!
I'd really like to see videl to exhibit some of her classic tomboyish behaviors and her love for martial arts more. She can be both, a mom and invested in fighting.
That sounds like what happened to Gohan in Dragon Ball Online.
Make his mama proud and become a ki doctor.
Eradicate cancer with a targeted ki blast or some shit.
This and the Villains editorials are some of my favorites you've put out, at least in terms of narrative analysis. I look forward to more, regardless of the time that will inevitably be required to put them together.
Child soldier with hideous PTSD becomes well adjusted family man.
Videl rocks.
just like rose helping jack in metal gear solid
A man needs a good wife, and a woman needs a good husband
@@scarlet_phonavis6734
I don’t know if you remember (or if you only watched the original Funimation dub), but Videl, despite her head underneath Spopovich’s foot, kept thinking “I can’t let him win”.
She wasn’t planning on giving up or hoping Gohan would come to her rescue, and considering how headstrong she was, she probably wouldn’t have accepted the help because of her pride as a fighter.
Also Videl, to her utter amazement, had her battered body instantly healed from a Senzu Bean by Gohan (a boy she blackmailed into entering the tournament).
So yeah, I think any girl would stick around a little longer after a boy just delivers a miracle to her.
Adult Gohan in DBS is just there to try on new clothes and accessories.
@@scarlet_phonavis6734...it was a tournament. She could have dropped out at any time but chose to keep fighting. Not to mention that Gohan almost ran into the ring to save her when the other guy with the M on his forehead reminded the other guy they have a mission.
And she convinced him to go into the tournament by blackmailing him into revealing that he is the hero fighting the criminals recently.
Why are you spinning it like HE wanted to join the tournament and HE didn't want to help her so he won't be disqualified in the tournament? It's totally backwards.
"Gohan. We're not tools of our fathers or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing... the only thing I was good at. But... at least I always fought for what I believed in."
Jay rip grey fox
Solid Sixteen
I am not emotionally invested in a stitched together rewrite of the cell saga. I'm not. I'm not. I'm really not at all.
Holy shit
You're not.
@@lightgivemepower6425 Yes I am
@@Keijikrall yes.
The more breakdowns and analysis I watch about Dragonball, the more I think I understand the appeal of the series. It’s
a lot like a big set of Legos. Nearly limitless ways they can be used and pretty much universally loved no matter what form they take, but the actual writing feels like someone made half a spaceship from memory and called it a day. Watching these really helps me think critically about my own writing, and I hope this will help me translate my work into a book I’m proud to create
What is your book about? I love talking about mine and hearing about other people's ideas.
For real
That’s such an absolutely perfect way of putting it.
@@stygian5309 Dude, next time you want to advertise for your story, please consider a little restraint. Just a suggestion.
@@laststrike4411 I deleted it! I'm also not trying to advertise. I don't care to gain followers. I will instead reply with:
I do not think the OP is going to reply to my comment. My story gets called original and fresh a lot, alongside with unique and one-of-a-kind. It does not follow any tropes/cliches and I do an entirely new spin on storytelling as a whole. It's an Odyssey because it's so long, and it is split into 5 parts, each with different "main characters" inside a multiverse where literally _ANYTHING_ is possible.
It is a mix of sci-fi, fantasy, dark fantasy, dystopia, pre and post apocalypse, thriller, horror, and comedy with a bit of slice of life in there. It gets pretty silly at times and serious, too. I even made it like an anime crossed with online video games. Natural pink hair and yellow irises? There's an explanation for that. White hair? Explained.
It's pretty awesome and the feedback is always well received and my characters are all loved--Villains and heroes alike. I hope to help spread mental health awareness in a unique way that the world can understand and appreciate. I hope yours can help better people's lives too, or at least give them a new form of entertainment. Not many stories these days stick out from the rest and more barely even try to do something different.
I love the idea that gohan being “weak” means there’s like 6 people in the universe that can hurt him
honestly, i feel like ALOT of the android saga asspull problems happened only because the shonen jump weekly publish system....so toriyama is forced to give each chapter a cliffhanger to keep the viewers engaged....of course when you look back at the whole thing, you'll notice how incredibley artificial it all is
Love your animations!
@@Nick70011 a lot of it happened because Toriyama was already bored of DB at that point
only asspull I remember was the hyperbolic time chamber and things didn't really feel artificial.
Well Toriyama did mention he planned to end Dragon Ball at Freeza Arc...
@@Duzz1412 That's not true. He DID plan on ending it after the first DB quest though.
Dragon Ball Z is such a goddamn mess that it annoys me, but I still love it more than I should.
True that.
the fans often take the series too seriously. It was never meant to be deep, just a fun series to watch
@@camiloprovoste7288 that's true DBZ doesn't need to be taken all that seriously. I personally just like everything in life to be consistent and tidy. You're right though it is after all "just a fun series to watch."
@@blakechildress944 Z doesn't get messy until the android arc honestly the Sayin and Freiza arcs are some of the greatest in shounen history, but by the Buu saga I was done it's so easy to see how the villains in z go from great to shit so quickly
@Cameron Childress
Wow, someone who knows my pain, because DBZ is my number favorite anime, despite the fact that upon closer examination it has moments that are down right infuriating from a writing standpoint...
With the part of Gohan writing a book to teach others about ki, is an amazing thing to think about, which makes me sad when Tien, Iguess is doing that already. But of course we already know they don’t like Tien and will never explore upon the concepts of his dojo. Great evaluation and video.
“Comfort Branding” is a good term for what you described. Ive seen it my whole life but didn’t know a term for it beyond “fanboying” or “jerking off” to it.
You see it in many products like Call of Duty being the biggest one.
The anime fanboy wars from back then stemmed from “comfort branding”.
But as you said, it can extend to any commercial product, both tangible and intangible like media.
Even now still happens and will always happen as it is human nature.
But comfort branding will always be an advantage for corporations or those that control the product or media.
I think the recentish "average fan vs. enjoyer" meme captures a similar idea. Some people like a thing because it's fun, or interesting, or challenging etc. whereas some just like it for the sake of liking it - usually due to nostalgia - and base their entire personality and self-worth around liking said thing; this usually leads to obsessive fact-memorizing or merchandise collecting as a substitute for an actual hobby that one can be enriched by.
I hate seeing Gohan with glasses. Toei is just saying "See? He's smart" without doing anything with it.
Shaman Xeed read the first comment again for the answer.
@K19 If I understand Saiyan biology correctly, any eye strain that Gohan gets should recover and turn into super sight. He should have at least 30/20 eyesight.
@Shaman Xeed Short answer: It's lazy.
Long answer: It's fucking lazy.
I kinda liked the glasses
They gave him a cute Clark Kent vibe
That always bothered me so much because why does he need that when can see perfectly fine? It's an annoying stereotype to give smart people glasses for no reason other than that they are smart and it's nothing but lazy.
"I can sit down and rewrite everything"
I mean. I WOULD PAY MONEY for your version of DragonBall Z.
The day when most modern stories enter the public domain, will be one long remembered.
@@johnnygyro2295 generally for the swarms of 14 year old kids lowering the standards of writing to something even lower than they were before.
@Mr Bubble Your mom was shit.
You mean DragonBallZ XXX: The Furry Futa Saga?
I'm gonna get head pats
Incidentally, they added a scene in DBZ: Kakarot where Gohan is recruited by Bulma to help fix Android 16 via fetch quest, and then 16 has Gohan follow him into the woods for diagnostic purposes, which gives them a chance to talk and fight poachers, and 16 gets to talk about how he was a defective war machine because he wasn't as bold as Gero's son. It's not the best attempt, but it at least is an attempt to add any amount of parallels between 16 and Gohan, and give that sequence with Cell any amount of emotional weight and build-up. They also remove the part where Goku gives Cell a Senzu bean, which is a plus.
Hopefully going forward, DBZ games can start taking more liberties with the story to flesh it out, or hell, just rewrite parts of it. Lord knows "What If" scenarios are popular with the Dragon Ball fanbase, so you'd think there'd be a market for them instead of just making you play through the manga over and over again.
I just want a DBZ game where they have a version of the story where different characters get to be the hero. Like maybe when Radditz kidnaps Gohan, Goku enlists the help of Tenshinhan. Goku holds him down while Tien Kikoho's Radditz and dies from the recoil. Then Tien trains with King Kai and we get to see the story from that angle.
dude i forgot i had dbz kakarot lol. i need to finish it. only got up to namek saga
@@franklinturtleton6525 i just want a modern DBZ game to have budokai tenkaichi 2 mechanics
That about sums up DBZ games now a days. Budokai games was a new way to see the anime in CG format in the 2000s, the tenkaichi games found a way to get the player to reenact fight scenes like the goku vegeta beam struggle or the z fighters vs frieza's transformations in the 2010s. DBZ Kakarot seems kind of forgettable.
DBZ games now just copy paste the story and change little pieces here and there from the previous games. Story is pretty much all that is left to change in DBZ but you risk alienating the fans who expect the retelling, while boring the fans who want to see alternate stories like if the earth z fighters fought together with Goku against Raditz and get an entire new story out of it.
We straight up need a complete Reboot of the Dragon Ball world with the twenty years of hindsight we have in mind now. It shouldnt just be exclusive to the video games.
What you said about how Gohan’s entire character being a blank palette for fans to project themselves on is absolutely spot on. This is also the reason why fans are always clamoring for Gohan to do more in the franchise, because he’s never actually been written intimately ever since he was created. Subconsciously we all know that Gohan doesn’t have much to him, but the moments where he’s teased as something greater impacts everyone because they like to see themselves in those bursts of greatness. It’s just denying his banality.
Yup, and like PlagueofGripes said, dbz fans will lash out if they hear this because they idolize Gohan, especially as an 11 year old.
@@insightfulhistorian1861 no one's lashing out tho. And if you're referring to op, it was legit insight to what the audience wishes. Not an attack to the points here, but an additional input to the video. I'm a girl and the first time I watched gohan was in the buu saga. When he was up against buu, I was rooting for him just because I saw he was a good school kid and for no other complex reason. Like op and the video creator here, I also want gohan to realize his full potential as decent, life loving character
@@chew7656 No one is lashing out on this video. Go onto a dbz clips channel and try explaining that the Cell Games is a disservice to Gohan's character, and you'll get lit up by enraged Gohan fanboys. People will get passed if you tell them Gohan is merely an empty slate for us to project our aspiration into.
@@insightfulhistorian1861 tbf The cell games is Gohan's best arc.
Commenting that it was bad, and that it was even a disservice to the character, might make zero sense with little context.
First you need to point out the bad writing. That's easy.
The tough part is explaining why it was a disservice. Because, despite the bad writing, it's still the arc that allowed gohan to shine
You need to explain that it's bad... because it could've been better. And it's a disservice because it wasted his potential to be a better written character
Then you have to convince and give examples how it could've been better
you need a lengthy, well-structured video to explain that. A comment can hardly contain so much information.
But I think gohan fans (or db fans actually) are generally open minded. Their reception to well-meaning and well structured criticism (like this video) is quite good. Maybe the audience's age has something to do with it
I mean, compared to Naruto fans. Look at gripe's like to dislike ratio in his other lengthy video about naruto's ideological flaws.
Now compare it to the like to dislike ratio in this gohan video. Or the like to dislike ratio in his "db powerscaling fails" video. fans can take criticism if it's well structured and they fully understand what you're trying to say
That's why I think more fans should see this video. It's a fresh, in depth take on the character
@@chew7656 I said the inadequacy of the arc needs to be explained, but I'm telling you there are dbz fanboys who worship the cell saga, especially Gohan's ssj2 transformation, and they'll attack anyone who says it's anything less than perfect. People who are emotionally invested in Gohan don't want to hear that he could have been written better because, as Plague said, they were manipulated. Have you ever tried explaining to someone in detail why they were emotionally manipulated? You're going to get reflexive hate in response. The only reason his dislike ratio isn't higher is because most dbz fans haven't seen this video. If Plague had as wide a fanbase as Geekdom, then the outrage would be spilling out.
So, did gohan ever learn that scholar isn't a profession? You have to be a Professor or a Scientist so that you can have something to study, research, or teach.
But books... and reading... and that totally is a job... right/ s
Gohan did, but Chichi didn't all in her head was that scholar=normal child=fits in with society=good. Gohan is a Professor at Hercules University
you don't need to be a prof or scientist either to make research or teach
I think he is actually a professor or something, in super, it mentions that he goes to conferences or something.
Watch the end of Z it takes place AFTER super and answers your question
You saying Gohan researching Ki and giving that knowledge to the rest of the world was a REALLY great idea. He finds a compromise of sorts between both ideals. The Studying and Knowledge of the world to teach himself and others. That being the essence of Ki and the lessons it teaches.
*And then think of this:*
The first few epsidoes of Buu Saga show that the population is going through a "Ki craze", with a lot of people trying to do it themselves (could have a funny scene of kids trying to do a Kamehameha like many did at least once). This can tie into Saiyaman showing up r populace that they can be heroes too.
After those scenes the story continues as usual (with fixing certain fights and such) all the way to the ending fight.
The scene where everyone has to raise their hands to give energy is now possible and strong enough because people knew what Ki is and how to use it.
Gohan basically helped save the world his own way, by making the fight not a one on one, but by everyone fighting together.
Ez fix, its like how most ppl go to the gym and want 6 packs, but when they find out its more difficult than just exercising for a few weeks, and then u realize that ppl only like the idea of 6 packs but not the amount of effort required to get them, itll be like that for Ki in this world that plague is talking about, so lets aay it takes like 2-7 years just to unlock ur ki, most ppl wouldve given up by then, and ull need extra years to master ur ki, thats a nice solution in my eye s
Isn't that basically what happens in DB Online, Xenoverse and shit? Gohan releases a book about Ki control and it makes everyone able to use it?
10 out of fucking 10
@@ir6734 yeah
Holy crap, that's brilliant.
They can copyright claim your videos, but they can never copyright claim your spirit.
Gohan is always said to be smart, but never shown to be smart. Having his fighting and studying combined instead of kept separate would be amazing to fix that. To have him be the combat professor. For him to get ChiChi's approval. ChiChi is afterall following the sterotype, as said, but she loves fighting and martial arts too. I think she's just not smart enough to see the chance for the two to overlap, much like Toriyama. Gohan being what his parents both wanted of him at the same time, whilst also being himself, sounds like the best outcome. That and I like the idea of Videl being the thing to push him into going professional after he teaches her how to fly. That scene should have been the first step in Gohan realising what he was going to be.
Everything after that really falls into place as you described it. Learns his own unique form that uses the power of SSJ2 without the drain. Fascinated with Buu to the point that he manages to get himself absorbed, thus forcing the Vegito fusion. The story could have stayed the same, without any moments of disappointment. And characters that get random powerups for no reason later on could instead explain that they learned Gohan's special form. Krillen, Roshi, and others who are way stronger than they ever should be, would have an explanation. They graduated from Gohan's school of Ki! Except for Tien who made his own school and that's why he sucked. It really all falls into place. Combat professor Gohan is what I really expected and hoped for. And with your changes, I now see how close we came to it.
Dragonball z needs a redo... Also with Raditz still alive.
"Gohan's said to be smart, not shown to be smart"
I think gripes would agree with you. He made another video criticizing dbz's power levels and how goku and the cast just keeps blasting beams and it's always the same beam, the anime watcher is just expected to believe it's a stronger beam because an in-verse character like piccolo just says something like this: "wow this is the strongest beam I've seen yet"
Have you watched the video yet? If not, I totally recommend it
I don't think yall get gohan's character,his whole point is he lack the will to take action,throughout the whole frezia saga as he described himself "was a scared little boy who relied on others to save his ass" that's what gohan's whole development was,to learn to be a man of action.so the buu saga followed that with gohan taking charge of protecting the earth as the great sayianman and not thinking for a second to charge at his enemies when in the past he puss out.even when gohan was getting an ass whooping by buu he still attack him even tho he knew it was useless.gohan learned to have the confidence of his father to take on the challenges,in Z at least.he never hated fighting or was a pacifist he just lacked the will power his father has.DBZ is as perfect as it is yall just overreacting.The only thing that needs to be redone is gohan being the one the kill buu keeping goku and vegeta dead,it let's us know the new gen can take care of themselves(as goku wanted)
what are you talking about, he has his non existent cartoony archetypal book reading job. only smart people can do that the writer said so.
@@shady8045 Ik you’re joking
I'm pretty much doing a fair amount of what you're saying in my DBZ fan work with over 700,000 words written and 400,000+ words posted. Raditz is also a part of the main cast instead of Vegeta and more focus is put on the Earthlings and Piccolo as combat relevant. I'm rewriting the story from the Raditz fight but I intend on writing every villain in the same order. (The only ones I'm iffy on are Baby and The Shadow Dragons, I like both but I really have to figure out what I want to do rather than just kind of shove them in with little changes as Vegeta isn't there to get taken over by Baby.)
Definitely prefer the rewrite, but a lot can be done in hindsight that wouldn't be possible when writing any weekly series. Not that Toriyama's a good writer, but I imagine the typical manga format is a nightmare of rushing both writing and art for years on end.
Not only rushing but also editorial meddling
How did you post SIX DAYS ago? The video's less than an hour old
@@TheTsugnawmi2010 The video was unlisted until today. People on Plague's discord get vids about a few days to a week before they're made public.
Light novel industry as well. That industry is a shit show. Some like to say that the anime adaptations of these light novels are poor adaptations. But frankly, its more like they showed what the story in the light novel is without the sophistry and purple text.
@Majin Melon cool story bro.
"he has a job reading books or something...he does big learns because he wears glasses and he does a study...BIG money hab because BIG money"
Think he was supposed to be a scientist or research assistant? Those jobs that cartoon adult nerds get with the lab coats and the big study glasses.
@@mohammedsami6907 BIG STUDY
It's kinda funny to think that maybe Toriyama doesn't know what a scholar does, so he made Gohan study pretty much everything while being 4 and then take "smart guy" as a profession.
Not gonna lie, it kind of annoyed me when you said Gohan's SSJ2 transformation was terribly written, but seeing your take on how it could have been, with the building up and the scene itself, I gotta say I agree with you. And also the "Gohan finds a different type of love for fighting" thing, really feels like it would have been in-character, and sounds like a really interesting concept.
Funnily enough I started out disagreeing but changing my mind when he explained it. Then changed again to think it doesn't matter all that much because the emotional payoff is all that really matters.
People often *despise* and discredit DBZ and Kingdom Hearts Story. And for arguably good reason. But nonetheless it gets people very emotional, and that is what matters more in the end. Emotions are felt, thoughts might turn into memories and checking for consistency and logic is an exercise solely for those emotionally invested.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I sort of see what you mean, although I think given better context for a story would have a better emotional attachment rather than one that's bare bones in context and is more focused on the emotions.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 that’s a bad take. Emotional payoff is what matters? As he states in the video, a lot of “emotion” is manufactured that takes any reasonable person to think about for a second and all the threats go away. What you’re just saying is yeah, going strictly off emotion is dumb
@@20marvelman Why are you fetishizing logic when it comes to media/art? The value of them is the impact they have on the viewer and how it makes them feel.
DBZ and more specifically Gohan has a massive group of fans due to how it was handled. Yes it was very "superficial" in how it got people to react emotionally to it. But it still resonated with people, it made them feel a strong set of emotions that didn't do them any harm. Would it be better if it did a much more efficient and consistent job to elicit the same emotional payoff? Sure, of course. But that is like saying "It is better to have a better version of ___."
If the inconsistency or poor handling of a scene ruins the emotional payoff, then it is a problem. But if people can get past those problems then what is the issue? People bash on KH all the time for having such a winding story going in random non-sensical directions. Yet people followed the series religiously over 17 years and are still excited for the next saga. For me it is because Roxas and Ventus's tragedies make me feel such a strong set of emotions that I want to cry listening to their themes. For others they want the good boy Sora to reunite with his friends since they have such a connection. And your going to let the fact that time travel feels confusing when you put a lot of thought into it, ruin the rest of the experience?
Art is not a math problem it doesn't follow a certain formula to elicit the same result every time.
I don't think yall get gohan's character,his whole point is he lack the will to take action,throughout the whole frezia saga as he described himself "was a scared little boy who relied on others to save his ass" that's what gohan's whole development was,to learn to be a man of action.so the buu saga followed that with gohan taking charge of protecting the earth as the great sayianman and not thinking for a second to charge at his enemies when in the past he puss out.even when gohan was getting an ass whooping by buu he still attack him even tho he knew it was useless.gohan learned to have the confidence of his father to take on the challenges,in Z at least.he never hated fighting or was a pacifist he just lacked the will power his father has
The whole rewrite resonates with me so much. Im absolutely gutted and shook. That was a well thought out and thorough breakdown
I don't know whether it was the skillful and tactical use of the SSJ3 theme in the background but the description of everything after the 46 minute mark had me legit tearing up. It was SO GOOD.
This whole video was spot on and a privilege to watch.
37:20 The official Plague Gohan Rewrite
Now that sounds like Gohan as a disciple of Nurgle
@@Siamzero1994 What's a Nurgle
@@SaltedMallows Warhammer 40k Chaos God that represents disease and rot generally.
@@SaltedMallows Okay, since neither of the two guys here have properly explained what they mean, I'll do it. In Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy, possibly Age of Sigmar but that doesn't matter here, there are four all powerful beings that can be argued to be the big bads of both settings: the Chaos Gods. Each of these Gods are essentially an amalgamation of ideas and emotions associated with their main theme. In Nurgle's case, his main shtick is decay, disease, rot, death, anything related to those topics. As far as emotions go, Nurgle is mainly associated with despair, depression, and tends to have many nihilistic followers that become joyful just for the sake of being alive and receiving Nurgle's "gifts", despite those gifts being diseases like super cancer and crotch rot, along with generally smelling like crap. At the same time however, Nurgle can represent ideas such as love of nature, the circle of life, platonic love and family, and physical/emotional endurance. Hopefully that clears it up.
@@Siamzero1994 A scholar? In Nurgle’s domain? Not even Tzeench saw that coming
Despite the moon exploding twice Monster Carrot is actually canonically still alive and still on the moon. .-.
how?
@@nooneinparticular5256 I have no idea and they didn't give a single hint of an explanation as to how, but he was in one of the panels in the Super manga after the tournament of power arc alive and well still up there making mochi.
@@xdfeverdream8122 Hm. Plothole?
@@nooneinparticular5256 Probably?
@@xdfeverdream8122 They referenced him in the Moro arc, they showed him as Merus ship flew through the sky.
Hispanic dudes with Goku/Gohan/Cell profile pictures have made more death threats than the FBI and KGB combined.
The non-existent relationship between 16 and Gohan being pointed out reminds me of Naruto and Gaara. After the time-skip they both act like they have this amazing deep bond with both of them deeply caring for each other, but in actuality they are total strangers who had just one meaningful brief interaction after a big fight. It's the reader who knows Gaara and (supposedly) cares about Gaara and that is projected onto Naruto, even though as mentioned... they are total strangers.
Also shame that youtube is so toxic to this kind of videos, I love Plague's analysis stuff.
Dionysus24779 Naruto and Gaara, I always thought, was more that they’re so stupidly desperate for a friend they force the deep bond themselves. Which is why they don’t interact often other than to be “OH NO MY BFF!”
Makes sense, considering how silly Naruto is.
Except it's clear that much like their fight. Naruto and gaara are both projecting their feelings of loneliness and desire for companionship.
same thing with sasuke they spend way more time searching for him than they ever spent thogueter, which is worse than gaara since the series became about naruto and sasuke rivalry
Darktusken I think with Sasuke they retcon it kinda so that they (Naruto and Sasuke) interacted as kids, right? Kids prior to forming the team, I mean.
@@garylevine3521 i remenber some of those added panels which werent convincing and they seemingly aded scenes were naruto spent fun times whith shikimaru and the rest kinda destroying the whole outcast loner aspect that naruto initiallly had
I would have absolutely loved to see Gohan take the two desires of his parents and do his own thing with them. One wanted a fighter, one wanted a scholar. Gohan becoming a "warrior scholar" would have been really neat. Studying the complexities of fighters and techniques, deepening his understanding of them as fights go on. Earning that power increase against Buu by connecting dots that allow him to utilize the things he's learned in an unexpected way. Enjoying fights in a completely different way than goku. That look of pure confidence when facing Buu would have hit completely different, even if he lost anyway. Would have been super cool
Goku honestly didn’t care if Gohan was a fighter after while. Read the manga or rewatch the anime, Goku tells Gohan to kill Cell so that he can go ahead and be a scholar. Goku just kinda wanted him to be happy
@@antg2183 that's a worthless diatribe if I've ever saw one.
Anthony Garner does that erase the years of suffering and torment he sent him through? No. No it does not
Jenny Berger Goku never put him through anything what you mean 😂😂 read the manga more. Piccolo put him through the Saiyans, Goku was literally wrapped up like a mummy and couldn’t stop Gohan from going to Namek anyway, him and Piccolo told Gohan not to fight the Androids and sent him home with Yamcha and Goku only told Gohan to fight Cell as a last resort. Buu was kinda all of their faults collectively (Goku and Vegeta for fighting, Gohan for not being strong enough to kill Dabura) you literally can only blame Goku for putting Gohan through ONE fight and that’s only because Gohan was legit the ONLY option. Y’all Goku haters really gotta stop
Anthony Garner I’m not saying he caused everything but I’m saying that goku and others put him through tons of trauma, now, let’s review: gets kidnapped by raditz, his father dies, the person who killed his father (piccolo) kidnaps him and puts him through a year of intense physical abuse (he’s 4 at the time) saiyan’s arrive, lots of his friends dies, the person who was practically torturing him for a year sacrifices himself to save him, he sees the fight between Vegeta and goku and he can clearly see his father just being beat (when he goes ape), he undergoes intense physical and emotional trauma, and then the whole namek thing which I won’t even list since that’s too long (but bonus: after goku went super saiyan he said he might kill him! Gohan! His own son! Yaayyy (this was because his super saiyan transformation had makes him blind sighted by rage but still) then in the Android saga having to come across Frieza and his army again, having to do intense physical training to prepare for androids to basically kill everyone, sees his father get the heart virus and nearly die, the whole fight with the androids stuff, going into the hyperbolic time chamber with his father because he wanted to spend time with him and doing nothing but training, in the fight with cell watching his father, his mentor and everyone else get abused by cell, and also him getting physically abused (after his OWN FATHER made him fight, with him not telling him his plan AT ALL and giving cell a senzu bean!), then he sees another person die, and he snaps. He has some good moments of letting his rage out and then his own dad (also the one who has sent him through so much trauma) sacrifices himself for him. Cell comes back, kills trunks who was a good friend, almost kills Vegeta (but he sacrifices his arm) and eventually beats him. *this is up to the cell saga ALONE with many missed moments and not even including namek because it would take so long.*
Huh. Having Gohan discover a way to gain the potential of a Saiyan and pass on that knowledge to the rest of the Z-Fighters would have been an easy way to power the rest of the cast naturally.
He could have learned how to do what the Kai did to him and do it for others. Maybe even from talking to the Kais about it he ends up learning about God Ki and Destruction long before Beerus actually shows up but doesnt mention it to Goku or Vegeta cause he knew they'd pick a fight.
@@lancetlo Perhaps he could even have started down that path out of curiosity and we wouldn't have had to get this contrived nonsense about multiple people of the same species sharing energy to make someone godlike *somehow*, which would've spared us the really lame way it was revealed that Gohan was going to be a dad.
If anything, additional fighting techniques could be passed down and studied analytically. This would give rise to a study or school of Martial Arts similar to the Turtle Hermit style while focusing more on self-discovery or self-rediscovery than on the fighting itself. Seeing the depths of one's own potential by training of the mind and continually better understanding themselves as possibilities present themselves. In a sense, it unmasks the stereotype of big strong fighter with big number and focuses more on how this opponent can better your understanding of who you are.
Did I get that right?
@Another Mark
That's precious, you think Toriyama gives a crap about the rest of the cast.
@@DemonicRemption He cares more about them than he does Chichi.
I love how TFS actually made 16's monologue meaningful. A harsh scolding of a sanctimonious child who stands idle while his friends are being tortured due to his disposition, and only once it resonates, could his death be meaningful because Cell drove the point home; after 16 put on the pressure, Cell broke the firmament with a final shock and gave him the realization; the helplessness Gohan felt was self-inflicted, and once he stopped inflicting it, nothing other than cold contempt mixed with fury remained. Then, all the rage he SHOULD have been feeling at this moment, as someone far more rightous and fair minded than his father, as someone far more caring than his father, and far less flippant than his father, unleased itself explosively and without warning.
It wasn't 16's death that send him over the edge. It was merely 16 who made him realize it he should've gone over it months ago.
Also Goku gets shit on a lot more during that fight, but also in a more realistic way, which I liked, because Piccolo is being way more real with him about how he's ignored what Gohan actually wants.
The problem with this argument is that it makes it seem like Gohan is better than Goku in practically every. And this makes it seem like Goku didn’t care about Gohan at all, an unfortunate side effect of the abridged actually making him a worse character than his canon counterpart.
The transformation in the abridged in my opinion didn’t feel earned because Abridged Gohan was a whiny brat most of the time, with most of his hate towards his father literally being because thing that were out of his control.
And the problem with monlogue was thi 16 called Gohan a coward. Which is something he isn’t. No matter the opponent, he never really backed down, or ran away. There’s not wrong with the monologue itself, but it’s main take away points out a flaw he just doesn’t have.
yep abridged is far better than the og shit
T4S dragon ball is better than the original ngl
@@sundowner4076 true, but I personally like how that by the end, gohans definitely more over it and isn’t beat goku over the head with that shit anymore. Just accepting the situation for what it was, the good and the bad
Probably the best (and worst) thing you ever do is take a show I absolutely don't care for, and construct a version of it that I would absolutely be down to binging in a day.
Let's praise Plague for sexualizing Pokemon some more.
"Pokemon GENTAI brings everyone together!"
I mean so does everyone these days
I like my Pokemon how I like my women.
...
Without a penis.
All hail Eli, creator of furries worldwide!
lets all love Plague
I always thought of the Gohan going SS2 as a way of repeating Goku and Eighter. Except Goku and Eighter were friends, 16 and Gohan just met.
@asian dude Referring to Android 8. In the original Dragon Ball.
@asian dude The nick name Goku gave to Android 8
it's like poetry, so that they rhyme.
Blazepard Toei had a similar idea, hence why the Path to Power retelling copied the Gohan SS2 scene pretty much exactly with Goku and 8.
@asian dude It's the dub name for Ha-chan or Artificial Human/Android 8
Video is phenomenal, puts Gohan in a new perspective.
How many of us wear masks, be who we "need" to be, never have been able to be ourselves, driven by an external person or force to partake in something we dont want to be a part of? Love it!
The rewrite is phenomenal.Gohan (and we lol) deserve better.
This ended up wonderfully heartwarming, which is a great suprise, given your other overly long Dragon Ball videos and the Naruto one.
It strengthens the video a lot, how you drop the mask of those videos in this very video about the masks of a character.
I know you kinda say that yourself, but I want to say that it worked well.
Is this really that different from the other Dragon Ball videos (or the Naruto one)?
@@LuisPereira-bn8jq Yeah, they are. Tone and delivery can change the mood of a video immensly.
He refers to his points about the Gohan transformation moment as "crybaby fight against Cell he hasn't earned" and randomly throws in "fuck you Gohan" anytime he's mentioned in his power levels video.
Every opportunity where he criticizes the mechanic of powerups there he does it by saying "but he's even strongaaaah" in a sarcastic voice.
That kind of stuff permeates all those videos.
They're entertaining and just as full with useful insight about narrative structure and writing, but none of it can ever be as moving as the bit about a rewrite here or as genuine-feeling as the words about how he does or doesn't like aspects of shows.
It's a more unique dimension to this format than snarky asshole.
@@paperbackwriter1111 exactly I don't watch this guy much but his sarcasm can get on my nerves sometimes
I would also accept Anger Management Frequenter Gohan, who is regularly ordered to attend by the court because he is always screaming at Videl for whatever reason. You know, like Mom taught him to do.
Whatever reason? I only remember it happening when crazy shit was happening or being proposed.
it's pretty fun when you realize gohan probably learned how to be a good dad from Satan and not from the "savior of the universes"
the panzie man Wait that’s a contradiction. You just said Gohan learned how to be a good dad from Mr.Satan and followed up by saying he didn’t learn it from the “Savior of Earth” but that’s also Mr.Satan.
@@somethingfunny2199 oh crap you're right
fix'd
When Kid Goku defeated King Piccolo he was still a good character tho
If there's a good thing about Gohan's studying is that it made him a more formed man that understands more about life than fighting and training.
Goku is not a bad father, but besides loving and protecting his son he doesn't know how to dad.
The more i hear about this video, the more i see that Gohan would have been a wreck of a person if he grows up to adulthood. I know its just the writers but i am impressed that Gohan managed to stay sane from all of that
Its funny because it feels like Gohan is trying desperately hard to stay out of Goku's life of chasing gods, aliens, and apocalypses. He just wants to keep his head in his books and enjoy his family yet the universe around him seems to be manufacturing reasons for him to go back out and fight
@@elevate07 Are you that hardcore SSB fan who plays MvC3 too damn much?
@@philithegamer8265 I've literally never touched SSB in my life. Although I've played my share of UMvC3 back when it was new
@@elevate07 Thank fuck you didn't play SSB. That psuedo fighting game is shit. Oh and UMvC3 was unbalanced as fuck and way too degenerate as a "competitive" game. All MvC3 had going for it are the roster the artstyle and the hype. The sequel MvCI had none of these benefits.
But to stay on fucking topic, DBZ is overhyped by fantards and Goku, Broly and Vegeta fanboys (Seth the Programmer) are outright hilarious to listen to when mad.
@@philithegamer8265
Am I missing context for why Smash Bros and Marvel vs Capcom got brought up?
I forgot Bulma smoked.
Huh.
Yeah she's smoking hot
@@madelinewoof7544 That too
She takes after her father.
Lol why is that something to note?
@@Don11037 Don't be upset because my stupid comment got all these likes despite the fact it had nothing to do with the subject matter.
"Comfort branding" sounds a lot like what's known as *consumer identity* . In a capitalist/consumerist society, we construct our identity by (partly) basing it on what we consume. Be it a certain type of food, clothes of a specific brand, or media.
Yup. And anyone adverse to it is rejected or deathwished!
Fun facts: Yes! Back when I was writing this out, eons ago, I considered consumer identity, but ultimately had to use it as an umbrella, because I wanted something that was also more related to formative development and not just the consumption aspect. Not necessarily stemming from youth, but relating to someone having primary experience with a new idea that results in said consumerism. (Often a result of being young, though.) An original version of the script explained all this, but got cut because that version was like an hour and a half long. There were a half dozen other contenders as well. There are dozens of different varieties of classified nostalgia, for example. Thankfully not a huge deal either way, but something I definitely spent too long thinking about while writing. I'm no psychologist or social scientist though, so my internet term can safely be limited to one hour long Dragonball video, in the most ironic fashion possible.
Totally understandable! I like the term you came up with a lot Plague, and it summarizes what you are trying to get across very well. Loved the video!
Pathetic, isn't it? Consumer identity is a sad product of a capitalist society.
@@RWAsur Thats where parents and good friends come in. Theyre supposed to keep you grounded.
The matching lip flaps to Plague’s commentary at the beginning is going very under-appreciated. It‘s a nice subtle touch.
Still under-appreciated
I literally never was looking at the screen for those segments until today.
Gohan having his own philosophy and somehow channeling that into his love of fighting? My man, I think you just described the version of Gohan we deserved to have. Fantastic analysis and video overall!
I loved Gohan so much growing up and this video was right at every turn. Watching this I realized that Gohan never developed a single unique technique and his only unique transformation is just him without any indications of a transformation. My boy deserved so much better.
I adore the idea of Adult being a discovery freak and loving life, reminds me of Dick Grayson. Your idea of Adult Gohan so perfect I'm bummed I'll never see it.
“Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist”- George Carlin
Whether by the approving of positive or by the negating of negative, I hope you’ll share with us your well organized thoughts regarding story structure in the future as you have done in this.
Thanks 👍
wow, quoting carlin in a pog vid, first time i've seen that
Thats a powerful quote because of how true it is
I speak from experience
Its a big reason you dream big the younger you are
Gohan is my favorite character from Dragonball. Probably because of the things you mention, I was around the target age for his marketing, and his presence helped me understand and relate to the story at the time. That being said I completely agree with you that Gohan deserved better than what he got most of the time. It always felt like Toriyama wanted him to be a significant character, but he never wanted to follow through on establishing his character.
I feel like its less that he didn’t want to and more that he just didn’t have the time
The way shonen jump manga are made doesn’t really give much room to let you sit around and workshop things til it works and becomes something great
You gotta get shit out by the end of the week (and on some level) bend to what your editors and higherups
Some of DB’s best moments came from this structure. but sadly, so did some of its worst :/
One of my favorite videos of yours always find myself back here rewatching it
I know they say boys marry their mothers but jeez, that shot of videl in super telling him to be a scholar was striking. I love dragon ball and thats why ur right , it deserves so much better writing
Breaking down the fallacies of humanity through fiction is probably my favorite hobby. I’ll never forget that term, comfort branding
This is the video I've been looking for, one that talks about my current opinions on Gohan now that I am almost 22.
I used to think Gohan was stupid for not training all the time like his dad. But lately I've been realizing he has been forced into his path in life by his dad and mom. Him being a "scientist" or whatever is still because of his mom. Gohan never got to choose.
Gohan has the potential to be an exceedingly deep character, things like him resenting his father, mother, and never getting to choose in life...just isn't acknowledged, and even now he is still being pushed and pressured to be a fighter, to awaken...to get mad...because he was born with certain genetics.
I actually feel really bad for Gohan now that I understand this, and it hurts even more that this side to him won't be acknowledged and he's just gonna be another musclehead who GETS STRONGER AND TRAINS etc.
I honestly think the DB Super episode where Gohan and his family have dinner with Future Trunks was one of the best downtime episodes in the series.
It was a weird fleeting instance of the series actually having a really good, solid grasp on Gohan's character for a bit, and even in the mess of an arc that was the Goku Black saga, it was really refreshing to see.
Always happy to see more of Plague (Totally not a DBZ channel) of Gripes.
Plague (totally not a furry) of Gripes is one of my favorite TH-camrs.
This is not a DBZ channel and Plague is not a furry. This is a furry channel and Plague is a DBZ stan.
@@Caidezes “DBZ stan”
「Plague of Gripes」
just to be safe, I will be making a backup of this video, before it gets pulled down xD
I wish I had his Dragonball and Naruto stuff backed up via my hard drive, I rarely if ever have internet and these videos - especially the Naruto self made video, make me laugh every time I see them. And I rarely get to laugh
When you realize we technically never knew what gohan really wanted to be since chi-chi did force him to be a scholar
I know it's like jeez let him have free will gohan should be able to make his own choices
Not really gohan has said time and time again that his dream was to be a scholar,yes his mother encouraged him more,but he coulda changed his dreams easily the moment that goku died and cell never came back after exploding.his character would of changed and instead of being a scholar he would turn into a future gohan.
Lol king
Not true
Gohan mentioned that
He loved fighting as a child
@@cringekiller348 yeah back then he was young and impressionable but after the frieza saga he definitely had a change in heart about fighting even piccolo knew about this. The show portrayed gohan to have a gentle soul not to take too much from his saiyan heritage. He even kept yelling cell to stop the fight, he didn’t want to do it anymore
@@cringekiller348not even. Manga stated he wanted to be a scholar. People should read the original toriyama work and stop with the anime.
This version of Adult Gohan is sick. I can imagine all the cool things he could do for the Dragonball Universe. Like, being the one people turn to to find the latest enemies' weaknesses, discovering Ki secrets that let human characters power up to a relevant level again, maybe even letting an enemy that's on the edge live and recover just like his dad would, but this time it's instead to study it rather than have it be a good fighting challenge.
And befriend it I guess. (I am tired as shit as I was writing this *yawn*)
And maybe he trains or develops new shit with Tenshinhan sometimes! He, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu bonding together over that shit on the side wouldn't be a bad thing.
I don't know whether you'll see this or not, but whatever: this is gold man. Seriously. It's such a compelling character study of a character in a show one might not think so profoundly about. Replaying it, just 40 seconds in you've essentially gotten down: "Gohan's always worn a mask. The son of Goku has always been someone else's project". So fucking good.
I hope you continue to do more of these, be it with Dragon Ball or Naruto or otherwise. In all honesty, watching these has helped me with my own writing. I've always had a fear of writing contrived or generic stories. This has been a great exercise in imagination. Thank you.
"exercise in imagination". I like that statement :D
God this video is exactly what Gohan needs. Will definitely look at Mark's video too.
Trunks not idolizing Goku is a nice touch too.
"You have three faces.
The first face, you show to the world
The second face, you show to your close friends, and your family
The third face, you never show anyone"
*-Unknown*
Psychology calls this the ID, social id personal id etc. Look it up good stuff.
"i am the shadow, the true self"
-some jerks with yellow eyes.
I've been looking who said this over the past two years and i just can't seem to find it.
@@floppytokey It's a chinese proverb.
@@floppytokey as mentioned, it's a proverb. It may also have been popularised by the novel Shogun by James Clavell, it was quoted in that and that book is very famous.
The rewrite you made for Gohan is excellent and would fix his character, but that's too mature, too good for Dragonball, really. Even at its very best, the writing of Dragonball never approached something so deep and fundamental as what you described and would even feel out of place, if the rest of the series was still as it is. The rewrite would, sadly, only work if the rest of the show had been written in the same way and tone, with the same level of maturity and insight.
There is always the possibility that after Toriyama dies or washes his hands completely of the series he never really cared about to begin with. A proper reboot of the entire series could work.
@Adrian Scott Copywrite nonsense.
@@bishopofeternity48 Not if it's under the banner of fanfiction.
Excellent? I think it's good, maybe to much forced in some parts. But not in the Toriyama's style.
@@Elfo_Scuro Nah it's excellent
Watching this whole thing made me realize something. Gohan being an extension of what people wanted out of Goku, being a powerful fighter. Its also another problem in anime, whether its something that's part of the story or a problem with the fans, we have this expectation of this child of the main character that is strong to be strong. Because of that, if they don't fulfill our expectations then we hate them.
Take a character like Metal Lee, he is Rock Lee's son, he strong and uses Taijutsu and can even use Ninjutsu if he wants. However, he has a problem with anxiety that's usually played for laughs, and he freezes up. Despite that being a natural thing that separates his from his father, as well as being a genuine flaw in real life, people hate him, because he's not this confident man that Lee or Gai was, even though its not stated he's supposed to be.
I've always had mixed feelings on Gohan not living up to his potential. I think what it boils down to is that in a fighting series, you want everyone to reach their full potential even if you can't fairly blame them for wanting a peaceful life.
I am an aspiring writer, and the structure of the story im currently trying to write has changed so much just by watching these incredibly informative (and delightfully cringe) videos on narrative structure. My work has evolved from a conglomerate pile of clichés and self inserts to a story Im sincerely excited to write, and I have these videos to thank for it.
Have you finished writing it?
nice
It can be fun watching analysis videos on how not to write characters. I hope your story becomes a success.
Update: I have finished that particular story and have moved on to something a bit more ambitious.
@@xtanagaming1017 share it with us! No judgement, only want to read something new
I really enjoyed this break down of Gohan's character. And your fan fanfic was great! And like all great fanfics it will never be fully realized. It's your fault for not living Japan in 1980's and giving him editorial notes.
"This is too deep for our audience, scrap it"
Thats sad
Ngl for a kid with as traumatic a past as Gohan, he turned out REEAAALLY well.
I know right.
Which we can probably attribute to him being a saiyan. It's a lot less ridiculous that he isn't riddled with Heinz' 57 Varieties of PTSD since he's not a pure human.
"Lol don't mind me, just fixing Gohan's entire character" - Plague
Seriously though this was good, although I don't see how your version of Gohan can't be main character material after cell, but eh. Goku should have stayed dead with Vegeta so they could have their own little side stories in the afterlife
He literally said the point isn't to make Gohan the main character 50:12
@@ոakedsquirtle Yes and the OP is saying the natural conclusion of this rewrite would be for Gohan to take over as main character of the series.
I think one thing worth considering..
In the original broadcast, Gohan got a LOT of filler focused around him. Including an entire filler only arc between Freeza and Androids where he is the power player. His filler is all.. remarkably well constructed in a way that would make you scoff at the idea it was filler at all. I certainly never realized it till years later when I got ahold of some of the manga. He gets a lot of genuine characterization and flavor through them. The original broadcast also embellishes some of the canon moments a bit in a way the manga simply.. glossed over. When cut faithful to the manga, DBZ Gohan really is just a plot device. Which is what you get in Kai. Which is probably the definitive version of DBZ now.
But it does mean an entire generation of DBZ watchers were baited in to thinking there was some kind of actual baton pass being built up to. Gohan has THE MOST CHARACTER PROGRESSION AND SCREEN TIME of any character by several orders. It's one of the biggest bait and switch scams in anime history. No wonder people were confused when the series went back on it at the final hour.
Not kidding. Unironnically. Some of the initial Z only filler was very touching. Piccolo And Gohan get more touching moments Kai/Manga don't get. There's also an entire miniarc before the saiyans arrive with Gohan meeting and saving some kids and deciding to go back to training.
But none of it was ever real.
Shit, I'm starting to realize everything I love about DB is because of someone I don't know the name of who was very good at adding 10 second character moments among everything constantly that likely has had nothing to do with DB for 30 years. Three lines of dialogue between characters here and there that add so much magic that were never real. I guess it also makes sense what happened to DB Super. Nothing happened. That's just how DB is, isn't it?
Even goku comes off as less of a sociopath thanks to filler. Like he actually cares about other people. But it's fake.
Well, at least I can leave DB to the zoomers at last.
There was also that episode where Gohan befriends a robot stuck in the mountains, i dont even think that one was dubbed
@@cannonfodder4000it was dubbed for dvd release
I love that you brought up Gohan's book from _Dragon Ball Online_ . Ever since I heard about it years ago, I've always had that as my mental image of what Gohan should be. Not a fighter, or a scholar, but a teacher. It feels like a natural progression from his time teaching Videl about ki. For the first time in his life, he's found a way to combine the two seemingly incompatible parts of his upbringing into something truly his own. Combined with his first experience teaching being with the girl he would eventually fall in love with, and it just feels right.
Also mentored Future Trunks & Goten
I had a different perspective on Gohan as a character. For me he wasn't some McGuffin device for others to use, he wasn't some comfort branding with an added cool factor for people to empathize with. Instead, I really pity Gohan's life and all of the experiences he had. An impressionable boy born under the pressure of his mother to become a scholar and forced into fighting. Gohan gets kidnapped and borderline tortured by piccolo at the age of four and then see's him murdered along with many other seasoned fighters in front of his eyes. He's still 4 and all of the following events happened within a month. But Gohan doesn't look traumatized or feel the weight of these deaths because he never even had a chance to cope with the constant murder because before Yamcha was killed, he never experienced it first hand. Gohan was never given the chance to be a human character because he was never completely human, to begin with. I believe Gohan doesn't get a sense of how strong he is until he leaves Namek. When Gohan does come back to Earth he fights Vegeta believing that if he can overpower a galactic emperor then, he might be able to beat Vegeta in a fair fight. Gohan is pretty intelligent for his age but he's also Naive and doesn't understand that he still a kid with no fighting experience because he doesn't understand what it's like to be a kid. He was born a child soldier. Now If you made it this far I want to be very clear. I don't defend Gohan's far-fetched boost of power. But I do disagree that Gohan's power increase was without reason. It's sprinkled a lot within the series that Gohan has a ridiculous amount of latent power. Gohan's arc is poorly executed in the anime but I believe it's a little too much to call him just a plot device when he has a lot to show for his character. He has mannerisms, likes, and dislikes, he was faced with some of the most difficult choices as a child. I think you can see what I'm coming from when you think about everything that Gohan didn't do. During the Saiyan saga, Gohan is just a child soldier. After a traumatizing battle where many people, including his master/kidnapper, is killed. Gohan makes the decision to go to Namek in spite of his mother's disagreement. He didn't have to, but he chose to because in his eyes both Goku and Piccolo died for his sake. The least he could do is bring him back. Gohan never had to save Dende, He didn't have to fight Vegeta after Namek. And I think Piccolo really puts the nail in the coffin during the Cell Saga when he explains to Goku that Gohan honestly doesn't know what he wants because he wasn't born a fighter. He literally doesn't comprehend why he has to fight Cell. He only wanted to help his father become a stronger person, something that resonates deeply within Goku's character. To summarize I don't think it's fair to blame Gohan when really he never knew any better. He wasn't trying to get stronger, he was just in a rage during his encounters which resulted in him becoming stronger not because of it.
As a Gohan fan, I honestly WISH more people would look at him the same way most people think of Tien or Krillin.
I also agree 10000 percent with your assessment with how people project onto Gohan. I notice the same thing a great deal with other "child sidekick" characters in other media as well. To many people are personally invested in this projection of a realised power fantasy they have imprinted on the character, not allowing him room to be his own man.
At the end of the day, he is a character that is meant to represent the balance between responsibility and personal passion.
EDIT: I take you you also watch MistareFusion? Guys channel is great!
EDIT 2: 10000% Agree that trying to force Gohan to be the main character is a MASSIVE mistake and shows a lack of proper understanding of the relationship between character and narrative.
52:00 how has gohan graduated high school, graduated college presumably, gotten married, and had a kid yet Goten hasn't really changed at all same with trunks lol
Their kid forms are more marketable than the EoZ teenagers, no matter how much I want Trunks's jacket.
Goku didn't physically change until he was like, 19, so blame it on his genetics.
@@SalvadorDolbyvsZAWARUDO Nonsense since Gohan got taller when he was a teen, hell even GT got this right and GT is shhhitttt.
@@colindowden2182 You're acting like it's impossible for siblings to grow at different rates. Goku was short most of his young life, I don't see why it would be surprising that one of his kids could take after that trait. If Goku grew throughout Dragonball and Goten was still like this, then yeah it'd be weird but as it stands it's just something to expect.
@@SalvadorDolbyvsZAWARUDO Or could just be Akira not giving a shit and fyi you're not comparing real life to dbz cause there isn't a person who look like a kid and suddenly get taller cause that's not how puberty work and l should know since l read a science text book.
They've finally revealed what kinda scholar Gohan actually is; he studies insects.
You would think after fighting the mother of all bugmonsters he would not ever want to look at an insect ever again.
I guess he is stilk trying to figure out how the hell that abomination ever came to life.
He's interested in bugs through out the series honestly. He's always stopping to check out butterflies and he is reading a book on cicadas in the dead zone movie
@@politecat4236those are outside movies not in the manga you can't use scenes that that Toriyama never wrote as an excuse for why he researches bugs
@@mauricesteel4995
Disecting insects is probs Cathartic. That ain't his Saiyan genetics talking, that would be the fact that he is part Chi Chi.
Haha, Chi Chi bad. Pls laugh.
Irony is real considering that Cell existed
That example you wrote was incredible. Thank you for taking the effort to create something truly touching.
The idea that mangaka needs to keep pumping out a new chapter every week needs to end, give creators a chance to think over their ideas instead of rushing them.
Some creators do have that freedom, but that can vary so greatly with publisher and freedom.