Ralfi's Alley- An FYI on the CMS of the A-10C
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2015
- Because I was doing this late night, I might have slightly misspoke about something. So in order to try and avoid confusion, here is a more in depth explanation on the MWS system:
The MSW system on the A-10C is UV (There are others like IR and Radar).
"The sensors in UV systems are nothing more complicated than CCD/CMOS sensors tuned and filtered to pick up light in the UV part of the spectrum. They detect missile launches via the UV radiation emitted by the rocket motor, which is why they can only detect a missile if one of the sensors is looking in the right direction at the time of launch, as soon as the motor has burnt out the system can't detect the incoming missile. Now as all the system does is pick up on sources of UV radiation, any UV source could (in theory) cause the system to give a launch indication. Good software with a database containing the UV signatures of known sources can help reduce false indications, but nothing can ever stop them, there are just too many variables.
Between IR and UV systems, a UV system is least prone to producing false indications, especially at low level. IR systems also require cooling (just like an IR AAM) and so have a larger footprint on the aircraft, require more maintenance and are more expensive. IR systems however are more effective at high altitude and can (again in theory, and only at high altitude) detect an incoming missile after it's motor has burnt out using the heat generated on the missile body from friction of the air. As you can imagine, at low level an IR system is very prone to false indications which is, along with their higher cost, the main reason why UV systems tend to be preferred.
Radar systems, are least prone to false indications and can obviously detect a missile if its motor is burning or not, and even (in theory) determine if it's actually directed at your aircraft. But they are much more costly, larger, heavier and complicated than their UV and IR brethren."
-DCS forums (Eddie)
Now this MWS is displayed ON your IP-131/ALR-69 RWR screen, along side all of the radar threats that are displayed there as well. So both radar guided and IR guided missile threats get shows on the same screen. The primary use of the RWR is to show you radar emitters, detected missile launches, and laser illumination around your aircraft.
OK, so how can you tell an IR missile from a radar guided missile?
Well that one is pretty simple. For a radar guided missile there is a source. For example, if an AIM-120 is coming at you, a F-15 must have fired it. So you should see an F-15 being the source of that missile. Or if you are up against a SAM site, you will see the SAM locking you up and then eventually shooting at you. You will get the missile and you will be very much aware of the source of that shot.
On the other hand, if you are just happily flying around, and get NO indication on the RWR that there is a radar source (An aircraft, or SAM) but only get a simple missile warning, then you can surely bet on your sweet little ass that you have just been fired at by an IR missile. There is no source on the RWR because nothing was actually locking you up with radar. Thus, you only see the M on the RWR indicating that the MWS picked up the launch and not your RWR sensors.
(There are some very little deviations to this, but generally this holds true) - บันเทิง
I want to let you know when you do these little tutorials, how much they are appreciated, Knowledge is Power
Thanks Ralpi
Fuck yes, any day with a Rafli video is a great day
"A simple thing"
Video is 14 mins long. Oh DCS...
TheSkipjack95 I downloaded the game because of him. I wanted to play it. That was a long time ago, i have 6 minutes in game....
NORxDRONExAT01 kiinda the same thing
NORxDRONExAT01 Eh it is a difficult game, because it is a sim after all, but then again it's not hard if you pay attention and put in time :P As long as you don't try learning like 90 planes at once, you should have fun, given the proper equipment. Such as a cheap joystick. Try it again sometime and take it slow :P
TheSkipjack95 its really simple.
its not too complex.
NORxDRONExAT01 just got back into fc3 lol don't hate me but im playing with a pc/xbox controller because my joystick is way too cheap/crappy... really wanna play with a good joystick though once i have the money for it xD and i think its better to play with a controller then not play at all!!
would have liked it twice if possible, great Video, great explanations, thanks for your efforts Ralfi!
Awesome! Receiving Missile Launch Warning even for IR missiles seems to be, on its own, a tricky reason to get newbie pilots killed very easily, for having them spamming chaff instead of flares, mistaken by the warning that, in their mindset, they wouldn't be hearing for an IR missile shot.
I personally SUCK big time at defending from missiles of any kind. I always get desperate when I hear a missile launch warning on the RWR and immediately begin the evasive maneuver (even when the missile's being fired at almost its maximum physical range). If I can't visually locate where the shot's coming from, I just assume it is really close to me, and immediately start defending desperately, and thus wasting all my already dim situation awareness. And I'm even worse at defending against multiple engagements.
I'm only confident enough when I get close range against a single hostile, within visual range and having positively tally the guy. Only then I might manage to defend correctly and hopefully get out of there alive.
I think it's worth to mention that the AI in DCS World is TERRIBLE in close range combat, which compensates their NINJA SKILLS in BVR. Even for a noob like myself, being able to get rid of multiple "Excellent AI" SU-27s with not much effort with the F-15 in a guns-only scenario, is at best, ridiculous.
Good video, thanks for the great explanation and demonstration. I remember one of my first sorties with the A10C I left my countermeasures on auto and literally freaked out more at the amount the program was using than the missile launch itself. After that I started using semi to save me the trouble of drilling in the keybinds for switching programs etc but after seeing this I think its worth forcing myself to do.
the "not a tutorial" that is more informative than the actual tutorial. 10/10 - would get shot at again. thanks for the info ralfidude
Ah, so against most players, firing an IR missile followed by a Radar missile will greatly increase chance of kill.
It was late so I was talking out of my ass half the time, refer to the description for a bit more detailed information on the MWS.
ralfidude why is your cockpit so dirty, you let linebacker fly it first?
ralfidude Having that Thrustmaster Warthog must be great for this. I bought an X-55, because it has about 4 billion hat switches. Still have to use a toggle switch in the A-10. Fuckin' A-10.
I also use the x55, make a modifier button (or two) on your throttle, that will allow you to double (or triple) your stick buttons
@@MillionFoul Use your Mode switch on the throttle and program it as a modifier. I use M1 once airborne, M2 is ground operations, T/O and Landing, M3 for comms changes.
@@aussiegta8267 I use the pinkie paddle as a modifier most of the time, and the mode switch to switch externally to DCS between aircraft that use Shift+B to extend the air brake and Ctrl+B to extend the airbrake.
Great video! Thanks for the info....always looking for tips to improve.
Thank you for this. Very helpful.
that's what i use for cms! :D I adjust program A (well unfortunately every time i get in the cockpit), i put 1 flare, 1 chaff to dispense in every 0.25 seconds for 6 or 8 cycles. never hit by a heat seeker since :D
In the mission editor there is also an encyclopedia with all the weapons, aircraft, structures, vehicles etc.
Wait a sec, so could I use this against A10s that use semi/auto when attacking them from a '21? Lock with radar then fire IR?
[AKA] Kraut! Pretty much. Don't remember if it will turn radar off if you switch to heaters though. He has to be actively locked by radar the entire time.
ralfidude Could easily have a buddy spike the contact and hold an active lock, while you fire a heater at him....How sneaky.
Robo Gaming ralfidude
Nope, you can keep that radar on all the way, switch to IR no problem, lock em, fire some and as long as you don´t break lock by maneuvering, you can keep the radar lock.
Ralfidude who art in heaven. Hallowed by thy craft. Thy AGM come. Thy GBU will hit on earth as it comes from Heaven. Give us this day our daily DCS and forgive us our noobnes as we forgive thos who are noobs like us. And lead us not in SA 11 sites but deliver us from AAA's. For thine is the A-10 and the GAU-8 and the Maverick. For ever and ever.
Tally...
Lol
wow
A-ten!
Hey ralfi I like your videos, could you tell me where you download your cockpit textures. They look a lot better then the stock ones. thx!
I guess with the new update to the A-10C you can use CMS left/right short to dispenser flares and chaff manually in any program?
Did you change the missile launch warning sound? I haven't played in a few months, but I remember it being a high pitched sound. I love these guides for the A-10C. Please keep making more!
It's a mod
Salient point to this is the last mission of the Stone Shield campaign for A-10C. There you're constantly locked up from a SA-8 while in the threat envelope of IR-SAMs. You have just enough Mavericks to defeat the IR-Sams that defend the main objectives, but you're screwed if either one of your Mavericks didn't connect or you come upon the SAMs inadvertently (which is quite easy as they and the main objectives aren't on your WP, you have to search for them under time constraints).
Thanks Dude, RalfiDude :)
Great as always.
I've never use semi or auto mods, only the manual one. I've a question, the SAM 1 and SAM 2 jammer programs are really functionnal in your opinion ??
Johan G.Bruère-Dawson Yes, they allow you to get close to the SAM before it's able to shoot at you. It does nothing post launch. You can observe this behavior if you attack a SAM head on without the jammer vs with a jammer on. You should be capable of getting a few extra miles of safety.
ralfidude ok thanks for your answer Ralfi, good continuation from france !
Thx this was helpful
Thnx for the video man. Would love to fly with you guys sometime, when your flying with some noobies
Ralfi, any thoughts on the L-39?
I've been using semi forever and have had this exact thing happen to me several times. and always im like stupid fn cms system. I will be switching to your method next time i play. thanks!
Is there a way to switch between mouse look mode like in War Thunder? I don't have trackir and its way too expensive imo :( so I tried facetracknoir but it makes the vision really wobbly and I can't click anything with my mouse :P
I tried using alt + c in-game but it isn't working, it only makes you move upwards/downwards/left and right instead of moving the camera D:
this just makes me sad. It reminded me for how long I haven't played a nice (skill requiring) Co-Op (maybe a year or 2). Just no people to be found. All of em are in some kind of a squadron. Have to teach people how to fly the plane all the time
what i want to know, and i know this vid is older, but whats the difference between SAM1 and 2 on the jammer?
okay, now that I know all this, I need to learn how to start the A10.
Is IR emission reduced when you throttle down really modelled in DCS ? :)
Not sure about throttle, but afterburner on/off definitely is modelled
Do you turn the throttle down to decrease the emission from your engines so the missile would pick up the flares?
+EvilPreach mhhm
Hey Ralfidude, have you guys ever played USNF 1997 before? don't suppose you could create such a scenario from one of those campaign missions?
ralfidude Is the MWSsound a mod or is it standard in dcs a10c? i never heard it execpt the RWR sounds.
RAE Mod
I guess I would use Auto when I don't expect any radar SAMs or fighters, but there could be a jerk with an Igla around
so i saw all those flares hanging in the air and since I have never played DCS, is it a valid strategy to put flares for your wingman, should he be out of countermessures? would be awesome if that had worked :p
pontusieg never tried but it should work. might look into it
pontusieg It works.
pontusieg it absolutely works. Happened to me once as a friend was afk for a sec and got shot at and i flared for him about 200 meters away and the rocket ate the flares =)
Am I missing something or are you saying that the chaff are basically worthless?Should I just go manual and change my load out to all flares?
txshooter38 Chaff are better then nothing, but some of the SAMS have seekers that are good at rejecting the chaff. not all of that are that good. Though I don't think Sparrows are in the game, and I know chaff should work on those.)
This is why I've always used Manual.
I always change the contents of the programs as the C program just eats the flares.
BenyAU Then there is always M. Whatever works for you.
ralfidude I saw that but it takes for ever to switch to it. CMS right...again...again...again.
B,C and D are all I use. All slightly modified.
Gives me something to do whilst waiting for the CDU to get its shit together.
can you do this for the f16?
For a low flying A-10, if there is a RPG launch, an explosion of a sort or any sort of large fire, wouldnt that set off the flares as well? Or does DCS not implement this?
ian doyle MWS has algorithms that help it with false positives. It's not perfect but it helps with the fake type of launches.
ian doyle DCS dosent have to implement such things cause its scripted. The CMS knows what kind of launch it is simple by the game knowing what kind it is. In Real life the firing of an rpg wouldnt set off a missile launch warning cause the rocket is not rocket powered (no contrail).
An AA missile on the other hand is rocket powered so the cms realizes this and sets off an warning.
Mainly what i mean is that the sensors also check for contrails and the motion after a launch so big fires and stuff will not bother you.
Of course theres still small chance an rpg still sets of a warning but well... you know how it is xD
Metal_Ramses You're right about the game part, but what you said about how the MWS works IRL is not quite right. It does NOT check for contrails! It only checks for high infrared or ultraviolet radioation depending on the system. That means false alarms can very well be caused by big fires and especially sun light. I'm in the german army and i know that our helicopter crews in Afghanistan fly with an automatic MWS which causes false alarms and drops flares unnecessary quite often, because there is lots of IR clutter resulting from various sources like direct and reflected sun light and others. I guess for fixed wing aircraft which fly in higher altitudes it's not as much a problem as it is for low and slow moving helos.
I haven't been able to find out anywhere as its only mentioned in the manual one time, so I have to ask since this video caught my eye what does OTR mean on the CMSP next to Chaff and Flares?!?!?! I cannot for the life of me figure it out
You should try clicking it.
Does this require any fiddling with countermeasure presets in the A-10?
Callum Jerwood nope. This is all stock.
Okay thanks. Extremely helpful pointers in this video btw. Thankyou.
Hey Ralf, I don't fly the A10C but after watching the video, it looks like you can't choose different buttons to just dispense flares or chaff manually, however you want like any other aircraft? Also, in your description, I think you meant "For a *RADAR* guided missile there is a source." Cheers :)
MillionFoul I think he means like in FC3 you have one button to pop a single flare, and another for a single chaff. Where as here you have to select a program and then execute the program.
ralfidude yeah that's what I mean. So in the a10c there's none of that? You are forced to use the "programs" and a single key to dispense countermeasures?
Jason Jia My apologies, I stand corrected. Still think a butt switch is an innovative and effective concept, however.
Jason Jia yep
Jason Jia In the F-16C there is a big button to the left of the throttle called the Slap Switch, because you bitch slap it with the outside of your hand, that (in BMS at least) always runs the same program. I have it set to drop 5 flares as a panic reaction to an Archer.
I know it is an old video but I would like to add one more argument against using the auto mode: if you're operating in proximity of a bunch of other aircraft and stay in auto mode, it will run out of CM the moment action starts. That's because MLWS gets triggered by any missile launch in proximity, whether it's targeted at you or not. I've seen it pop flares when a friendly Hog fires a Maverick, or chaff due to a friendly SAM launch on enemy aircraft that happened to be roughly in line between me and the radar site, triggering my RWR warning (I didn't even know this was possible). So yeah, semi at most, so the least you can do is stop CMS from doing stupid shit.
Yes this is really annoying, especially in the campaign, as there are are helicopters on both sides firing A/G missiles as well - this means you're getting launch tones from directions that seem plausible for an enemy IR SAM site to be - constantly. The MWR receiver is the reason you're calling 'Rifle' on a Maverick launch, at least in polite company.
👍
Or just key in flare release and chaff release on separate key bind and spam them out when your MWR tells you what missile wants you dead.
i only have a logitec joystick.. i have complete hotas control by using modifiers. with my hand on keyboard and my hand on stick (shaaaatup) and my thumb on the slew.. i can hold down ALT or SHIFT or WIN, or CNTL, or `. And in short.. it turns the joystick into what ever mode i need.
i use ALT for my TMS commands.. i enter CMS mode when i hold down WIN. eyes never off the screen
Alpha - Charlie Delta ..... huh ? How do you know what these are dispensing
dammit. Exactly what happened to me, saw an IR SAM lunched at me, tried to flare but my semi changed it to chaff because of a AA Radar lockup at the same time...
I really want to learn how to play this game...
Small mistake on the description, should be a radar guided missile instead of a heater having a radar source.
This is awesome to know but sadly due to my 2 hat hotas i have to stick to simi.
you could reprogram some of the buttons on your keyboard (or just use the stock ones). essentially you really only need 4 buttons get a shit extra keyboard and print labels and glue them to the keyboard. make that your button panel.
think about it, there's only 5 buttons on the CMS, and its really just a directional switch. press for jammer. you can just use standard key for this, i forget what the default is. up/down is start stop. put this on your joystick (most important) now all you are left with is 2 commands, program left, and program right. put this on 2 keys next to each other, like + and -, and you have an easy to use system.
The Architect I know this is a little late but look up the delanclip. Its pretty inexpensive and does the same job as the trackir, i know a lot of people who actually use trackir and the delanclip (they move their pc about and keep the delanclip unit in one place and vice versa). I've heard some pretty good things about it
Can someone explain to me why the MFD whites out periodically?
err, nope. That sounds like a graphical glitch error on your part.
@@ralfidude I saw yours do it in this video really briefly
@@taipan185 time stamp?
@@ralfidude lol Im actually looking for it right now :)
@@ralfidude Its like the MFD flickers quickly and whites out. It was really quick on this video but on mine when flying the A-10A it can last a good few seconds
You killed a poor Sam which was harmless :'(
good way to be out of flares in 18 seconds
Pro-tip: just after take off hit that switch in the upper right of the CMS panel, your wingmen will love you. And so will the SAM's.
ladies and gentlemen? Are there any girls? I hope, but don't think so
nails by an sa-10 and you live long enough to make a tutorial video? sam operator must be sleeping.
freqimann Also invulnerable aircraft.