An Honest Conclusion on Steph Curry’s Legacy…
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2022
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With Steph's 4th championship ring, and 1st Finals MVP, many have drawn drastic conclusions about his evolving legacy... but are they accurate? Let's dive into it.
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#NBA #StephCurry #Warriors - กีฬา
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Is Steph ahead of Magic? Is he now in the Top 10?
Pinky promise I’m going to get a job and then I’ll get come over there and I don’t don’t want to go to the beach
Nope he’s not ahead of Magic.
To me steph is 13th
Jordan Magic bird LeBron kareem Wilt Russell Duncan Olajuwon shaq and Kobe and dr J because aba existed
@@reimixo Ye I see
MAGIC is still no.1 PG , Curry maybe top 3!
Imo, what killed any argument you made, was penalizing Steph for having great teammates, but not doing the same for the others
Agree, especially at 9:09 talking about Larry Bird and not mentioning the help he had right after specifically mentioning the help Olajuwon didn't have lol like come on..u gotta stay consistent
wot place do u have steph
@@ryanguo9300 I have Steph at 8. Tied with Shaq. He’s not only the second greatest PG. He’s the second best player in the best NBA era. The story of the NBA after 2013 will be the story of Curry,Lebron and Durant.
@@ryanguo9300 I have him #1.... all top 10 players are current as basketball is so much better now than in 1985 that comparing players from that era is like comparing a dime and a phone booth to an I-phone 13! Top 10: 1)Steph, 2)LeBron, 3) KD, 4)Kawhi, 5)Giannis, 6)Embiid, 7) Luka, 8) Joker 9) Ja, 10) Kyrie ... I realize that my list has problems with unproven kids that could implode with injuries, but I am making a point that needs to be made. An all time list is based on the assumption that players from long ago and players from now have a common denominator. Greatness is not eternal. A match between the the Warriors this year and the the Celtics of 62 would be a joke. An NBA team from the early fifties would be obliterated by any WNBA team. Time is relentless. Steph boggles the imagination, and it strikes me particularly because I am 74 years old (the same age as Kareem) and I get Magic (and love him) but Steph is not something that even an LSD trip from 50 years ago could have caused one to hallucinate.
@@philwilson609 bro wow
No matter where you rank him all time, i hope we can all agree chef curry is a legend 🔥
Nope. Legendary luck. Doesn't have to play d. All energy goes on offense
@@rockysalvatore435 really? When they destroyed celtics who are known for their defense using their offense and defeanse. Holding celtics below 100
@@Milo0610 Curry didn't defend. Wiggins, GP and green did
@@rockysalvatore435 Curry played great offball defense. He isn't the best man-to-man defender but he still played a huge role
@@Ryan-os8hf no he didn't dummy
His teams defensive system covered for him. He's got elite length that disrupts passing lanes and those guys prevent him from being isos. Their team defense is elite. Curry isn't elite at anything
I could even argue that Steph's 3rd title was also a Finals MVP performance. I don't get the argument about Steph not having competition when the dude literally battled with Lebron for a decade
Having 3 other all stars and not being the best player in two of those rings hurts him
Facts
@@slee2695All Great players had great teammates. Only Lebron, MJ and Hakeem players who has 2+ Chips was always the best player in their team in the finals.
Lebron and kyrie, name someone else in comparison to what Steph curry had. Dray, Klay himself , KD etc.
@@bruh-yq5mu So you just gonna act like that Cavs team with Bron, Kyrie, & Love didn’t run through the East going 12-1 and they barley lost that Game 4 against Boston in 2017. They just ran into the greatest team ever in the 2010s
Jonny needs and deserves more credit. His content is up there with JxmyHighroller. Keep it up! 🔥
Jxmy has better editing but I enjoy both of their channels. Also you should watch DylanDoesBasketball
jxmy does not know bball Wilt way better than Cu1-3y
@@Life_Basketball DDB is wayy too casual, ppl should only watch him if you’re literally brand new to the sport and need to know stories
Jxmy is mid
They should collab
I like making music lists. I often find myself saying "this top 10 has 11 albums in it" 😅
For me he is in the top 15, ranking top players is really hard because every era had specificities, rules, ways of playing that made them unique, thats why every legends of the game needs to be respected.
curry hater
@@zencinematography I ain't hatin anyone :') you took it personal hahaha
Very balanced assessment. You gave Curry his dues without disrespecting other players ahead of him. Well done. 👊🏾
The fact that curry shook up the convo says a lot… he is greatness and before it’s all said and done a definite top 10 all time
You are my favorite basketball TH-camr. You do a great job of balancing the old school and the new school. You have a great appreciation for the fathers of the game while definitely giving the new guys their props as well.
Almost no one on TH-cam offers serious analysis regarding the cult of 70's/ 80's/90's basketball. There are three, and only three possibilities: 1) Basketball players and coaches have learned nothing in the last 30/40 years and the game has stagnated, so that any old timer who averaged 20 points in 1980 could hop out of a time capsule and put up the exact same numbers they posted 42 years ago 2) Basketball players get worse and worse with every passing year, so that lazy, soft, uncompetitive players of today would be eaten alive by the old timers. If Larry Bird played today, he would average 200 PPG. 3) The global basketball pool has grown exponentially in the past several decades, and current players have a much more complete array of skills (completely ambidextrous ability to dribble and finish near the rim, mastery of the cross over, step back, euro step, ability to shoot from range, fitness level to move off the ball, ability to screen and roll, understanding of switching and closeouts etc, etc) allowing them to take the game to a vastly more evolved level than in the past. The growth of the global pool produces new prototypes including seven footers with world class handles and the ability to cross over and knock down triples (I.E. KD) and massive and athletic point forwards with floor vision (LeBron). Anyone who counts rings and awards without addressing the elephant in the room: Shaq was to George Mikan, what Steph is to Magic, ain't helping to improve basketball comprehension.
@@philwilson609 spot on
It hurts to see how many people dismiss magic. Props to you Jonny Arnett. Great video
I think it's because he played with Kareem.
@@micahkiyimba8641 like Johnny said, both curry and magic have all time great teammates as well as all time great competition
@@hmnghzl5242 Yeah, But Kareem is superior to any player Curry has played with. And Curry faced the 2nd greatest player ever in most of his Finals appearances.
In this help argument, Curry has had less help than Magic and faced a tougher West
@@micahkiyimba8641 KD is actually on up there with Kareem
@@micahkiyimba8641 this^^, people forget how stacked the west was for most of Curry’s career, in 2016 you had the 67 wins Spurs, the KD-Russ OKC team, Harden’s Houston and the Lob-City Clippers.
The thing is I skip every channel’s intro but this one . A thing of beauty
Curry is a multi generational talent. I used to hate the guy, but he proved me wrong time and time again. He’s easily in my top 10
@Tom Ford 🤡
@Tom Ford talk about bad defense let’s talk about magic curry is the better offensive and defensive player then magic
@Tom Ford curry is a top 3 offensive player arguably 1 or 2 and is the most portable player of all time there’s no reason he shouldn’t be top 10
He's too small to equal the best scorers-defenders, basketball is a tall man game.
He’s not even in the top 15
in 12 years, Magic went to 9 finals, won it 5x, won 3x finals mvp, 3x league mvp, retired as the all-time assist leader at the age of 31 due to fear of a relatively new-ish & basically (at the time) a death sentence of a prognosis. He's still the all-time leader in APG, btw, and by a significant margin. Steph Curry absolutely changed the NBA; Magic literally saved it. They're both incredible, and while I do maintain that Magic is the *greater* all-time PG (did more in less time; we'd never see Steph if not for Magic), I am taking Steph on my starting 5 of best players. He is a dynamic playmaker just by being on the court with his offball movement; it changes the way defenses play.
Also, Magic was incredible off the ball. When he checked in as a F or C, he played like one, establishing position on the block & setting screens.
context: Steph is my 2nd all-time favorite player & I said all of this. I watched both. Magic is greater. For now. Steph's story isn't finished being written!
They have basically the same amount of years in the NBA at the moment. So Magic achieved more in a similar amount of time. But if we put things in context he came to a ready made team that was 1 player away from winning. They both have great moments and incredible choke jobs. It is closer than people give it credit for, mainly because Magic is a historical figure and we mainly remember the good things about past players.
@@sskmanentsa5326 and Magic retired just on the other side of his prime b/c of HIV. The 13th season was literally five years later when he was super out of shape.
Yeah, it's kind of close, but Magic's still greater IMO. Steph is better suited for how I'd build a team today, but Magic still has the overall edge.
Good analysis
@@sskmanentsa5326 Just stop. Magic only had one series of choking that was significant. He was actually one of the most clutch players in history from his rookie season. Actually his dominance was from highschool and won the NCAA championship in college. He was a winner at every level.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 I don't dispute Magic's greatness, but don't underestimate Curry's college greatness. Davidson is not Michigan or NC or Duke or UCLA, but Curry was averaging 30 on good efficiency. Which is why I say context matters. You cannot just look at titles and awards and just go from there. Curry's basically played 11 and a half years. Magic has Tragic Johnson, Curry has 2016 Finals. Magic had the media behind him for his latter awards since they wanted him to catch Bird individually, once Curry got Durant the media took away his ability to win awards which had no precedent and was nonsensical. Magic is higher but again it is closer than it is given credit for.
In my opinion, magic is still better. More fmvp, mvps, championships. Curry top 10 but magic still better
Agreed
Yeah, that's fair.
Is bill russel better than mj then?
@@unknownunknown-fi7qn bill russel played in a league with 8 teams where the celtics literally had all the best players in the league. It's the equivalent of a college team playing in a league of high-school teams.
@@zachattackpro4586 I mean less team’s better players.
About Kobe and LeBron's impact on the game:
It's more understated, but it is definitely huge as well.
Kobe changed the way guards approach iso play, shot selection and low post play. Even Jordan often took the optimal pass when he was walled by a larger athletic defender in the post, or when his shot wasn't falling, but Kobe was not likely to. He would even back down his defender in the low post, proving that size and athleticism are not always needed. His success with very risky play is why many players today take the challenge against certain defenders regardless of size, or even extend their game to the low post at all. He was also one of the best volume 3pt shooters at shooting guard, empowering more 2-guards to pursue a reliable outside game, something that was not needed before in Jordan's era.
LeBron changed league average player weight and mandated that all star forwards be good at passing. The average player gained 10 pounds during his prime, bumping league average weight to the highest its ever been in league history (223lbs) and all star forwards bulked up considerably to be able to slow him down. Without LeBron, Giannis is still skinny today, and Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, and Luka would likely play at 210lbs instead. LeBron also caused the creation of the clear path foul in 2006-07, as defenders were too likely to foul him in transition to prevent a highlight dunk. This type of intentional foul had become too widespread around the league and was not only causing high speed injuries but was impacting ratings. Now you are able to see players take the ball coast to coast, and really use their speed.
Kobe is a clone of Jordan. Copies every Jordan move imaginable
Great comment!
Was just binge watching your vids but heard Steph got his 4th ring and realized this is a new video! Your content is A1 and your voice has gotten deeper over the years!
Saw the notification and clicked🔥 never disappoint Jonny🔥🔥
Jonny keep up the amazing content. 🙌🏻
I think the fact that Steph change the game affecting the way we see the "CENTER" position and the way how many centers you have in your Top 12 make me think in my opinion his Top Ten.
He litterally address this in this video saying, Do the other people who changed the game just as much not count ? Just because curry got everyone shooting three's doesn't mean other players haven't significantly changed the game in their own right. Pretty weak argument imo
@@Nerevarine420 Not weak imo, yeah they change the game but the way he change the game imo is the top and most influential compared to others.
@@nedi6188 you need to do some research on some of those guys, especially wilt.
If Wilt, Kareem, shaq, Hakeem, Russell played today. They would change the game back to what it was.
60% 2 is better than a 40% 3 (because of the and 1 and OREB possibilities are much higher)
@@jesuschrististhelord9937 but defensively its easier to scheme against inside scoring plus the probability of and 1 on 3's and offensive long rebounds. You can't easily say the game would change back easily. Plus if my google search is correct none of them have career 60% FG and if you say they will on this era that just assumption but Curry is a career 42% 3pt shooter plus 92% career FT.
@@nedi6188 it’s easier to shoot 60% in todays nba. Those guys were the most efficient in their eras.
I agree almost 100%. I still think there is a substantial gap between Magic and Steph though. I think it’s nearly impossible for him to get pass Magic at this point, but we’ll see.
Not really. If he evens or passing him with 5 or 6 rings, one more regular season mvp, and wins a few more fmvps it would be a real conversation.
@@TheIcemanthomas which is prob not gonna happen, he will prob win 1 more ring at best at his twilight year but not as fmvp
if Curry wins 2 more rings, 2 more finals mvp, and 2 more con. mvp then yes….he’ll pass Magic as the best pg ever.
1 more ring and FMVP puts him above Magic
I knew a video would come out like this, keep it up
11:55 great points. Was looking for those too. Wish you elaborated on Dantoni, super Miami, 90s rockets magic GS, Dwight, SA 2014 and 13, Lillard and harden, Reggie, also GS as a whole and Klay too. Mark Price, Rauf and the greatest shooter from the ABA as well who eludes me rn
louie dampier
@@cuzgottheloops thanks bro I appreciate it. You deserve the likes lol. Not too many ppl with that knowledge. What's insane is by the numbers I think his shooting is better than Steph's. Bc of Steph's reputation and ABA and 70's being seen as weak no one cares to entertain it.
Brazilian dude underrated too with 50,000
Jonny's take is so logical and rare compared to other NBA fans. I agree with you.
It’s not foolproof though
Another burner account.
@@henny6566 oh, i see
The facts that you choose to emphasize over others will affect your rankings. E.g. Changing the game: Magic and Bird "saved the league" in terms of viewership but that doesn't mean they changed the game. Changing the game means changing the "meta" of the game (gamers know what this means). Changing the meta of a game means your skills/abilities/style of play are so overpowered that you force everyone else to copy you or nerf you with rules (e.g. Rule changes because of Wilt). There are very few players who meet this threshold. Arguably only Wilt and Steph (maybe MJ?).
Yes defense is extremely important, but you are overstating the importance while also underrating Steph's defense. At the end of the day, what matters is whether or not you win your games and maybe the point differential, not whether you kept the opposing team to a certain number of points. E.g. It's irrelevant if you score 50 and they score 30, vs you score 120 and they score 100. Steph has the highest % of wins added to his team of ALL TIME, Lebron is #2, and MJ is #3 (as per JimmyHighRoller's recent vid I believe). That is a better (not necessarily perfect) measure of a player's impact/value.
You also did not mention the short list of players who have multiple MVPs, 4 rings, and finals MVP, which is like 5 or 6 players total. That alone could be argued to put him in top 5-6. You also didn't mention that only Steph and Kobe have multiple rings with non-top 75 teammates in history. Again, the facts you choose to emphasize over others will affect your rankings. As such, the debate is really about which facts should be considered more important/reliable indicators of a player's impact/value.
In terms of ranking, you can give a range like they do for anime character rankings. Steph's lowball range can be Top 12 as you noted (I would disagree and say Top 10, but that's fine) while his highball range is arguably Top 2 (arguments to be made as to why he's better than Lebron; e.g. as many rings and beat Lebron 3-1 in finals, higher win % in finals, higher % wins added all time, etc).
Without Bird and Magic there is literally no NBA, something pretty much every young kid can’t comprehend.
Not arguably two. Highest is 6. Nobody even comes close to the production of Lebron and Jordan. In a league of their own.
I mean there's is literally no case whatsoever for Steph being as high as 2 unless you get extremely nitpicky and ignore context completely (which is stupid). His range is 8-13 as of now imo but he'll definitely build on that.
@@BT-dl8in I agree 2 is too high but he has an argument for 4th, the only players I can definitively put higher than him are MJ, Kareem and Bron
@@westbronco9066 Depending on whatever criteria you use, I could see an argument for 5th but I think Shaq should go in that group aswell.
Jonny love your vids so much I hope you doin great
Thanks man! I seriously appreciate you watching as always :)
@@jonnyarnett I have to your vids are just that awesome :).
But what would curry case be for him to be top 10, or does not have one.
I believe if you were going to argue it’s him creating the goat team, a dynasty, being the greatest offensive player and talented to be top 10 And impact on the league.
Although I don’t think that’s enough I think that can be for others
Some interesting questions can be deferred:
1. Which conference is better all-time in terms of competition/talent level: the Eastern 1980s or the Western 2000s. Both of these conferences have the mark of all-time great-time teams. Eastern 1980s has Bird's Celtics, Dr.J, Moses' 76ers and Zeke's Pistons, even solid teams like Moncrief's Bucks, Wilkins' Hawks, and uprising teams like Jordan's Bull and Price's Cavs. Western conference in the 2000s can call upon Shaq/Kobe's Lakers or Kobe's Lakers, alongside Duncan's Spurs and Dirk's Mavs. Some front-end teams can include Yao Ming's Rockets, Garnett's Timberwolves, Nash's Suns, Webber's Kings, and uprising teams call upon the Carmelo's Nuggets, and either the Malone-Stockton converting to Boozer-Williams of Jazz. These are my personal top 2. It's like 1A and 1B for me. And your arguments regarding Larry I believe could add some ideas to this.
2. Whose choke job is worse: Curry's 2016 Finals or Magic's 1984's Finals.
I think the best way to go about is separating perimeter players and bigs, because they play way too different from each other to really compare. How can u really compare 6’6 MJ/Kobe to 7’1 Wilt/Shaq. They play by different rules and have different types of abilities. Compare Steph to Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, and LBJ. It’s way more comparable than saying Steph against a Kareem or a Hakeem or a Shaq because they are far too different in skills, size, and position to even make fair comps and that is for all players not just Steph.
Edit: love the video. But just for good measure, curry is the leading player all time for winning impact. Let that sink in
I have a gripe with your three reasons making curry a top 10 player difficult
1. The defense. Bill Russell wasn't a mainu offensive player for the Celtics finals. Yet he's a top 10. Magic never had a defensive team selection. This is a double standards put on curry only. Also curry is statistically a above average to average defender for his position. So you have a top 5 offensive player of all time, greatest shooter, a dude that revolutionized the game through his offensive ability alone, with average defense at the very worst and you have an issue putting him there because of this? by your own logic bill shouldn't be a top 10 player. No seriously should we really bump him up because of his rings even though they are a product of a good team (he himself said this)? Ummmm wouldn't make sense
2. "Hakeem didn't have help like curry". This is also a double standard. You literally were discussing curry vs Magic and Magic's stacked team that included a TOP 3 PLAYER ALL TIME didn't take anything from his career. He had a great team for most of his career and other than a few instances (like that game where he played for Kareem) his team let him be a facilitator from how good they were (also why Birds stacked all star team lost to them a lot). Also we don't deal in hypotheticals. Sure Hakeem with help would have been a beast but guess what he didn't have help and he's not the only one in history to not have enough help. Dealing in hypotheticals makes everything a mess as people will bring other players into the mix.
3. Birds back problems. How does that have anything to do with curry lol. Birds back problems, if it is such a big issue should be its own topic that affects the whole list. Againi we don't deal In hypotheticals. No one sits here saying "well the warriors were heavily injured in 2016, including curry who was on rehab for his MCL so it doesn't count". Nope he blew a 3-1 lead. That's what it is, history
4. "Every player has a narrative going for them". This is false. "They saved the game" isn't the same as "this player changed the way how we score and view offense (THE MAIN PART OF THE GAME). curry changed the structure of basketball games. That's not the same as having rules to slow you down, that's not the same as saving basketball view ratings on TV, it's completely different and on another level. Disregarding that is disrespectful and ignores the whole change the game went through in the last few years. Dude has statistically changed the game like BABE RUTH did for baseball. So yes that should definitely play a part on his case as top 10. Because of his insane shooting ability, the whole view of the 3 pt shot and roles on the court changed. No other NBA top 10 player did this (as far as I know)
So curry is the goat shooter, top 2 pg, is one of 3 players to have 4, rings, 2vmps and 2 scoring tiles, has 2 of the greatest offensive seasons of all time (2016/2021), led the team with the greatest record in history, is a top 10 playoff player (career stats), has multiple finals records, is statistically a clutch player in the finals and playoffs, has a finals where he carried the team by himself, and the only thing that goes against him is that he was robbed of a FMVP and that narratives really downplayed him (he's still considered not clutch when man's shoots 50% on close game situations for his career). How is he not a top 10 player when he leads both Wilt chamberlain and Hakeem in most categories?
perfectly said. we can see nobody else responded to this comment. probably went night night lol
You nailed it bro
Curry is not top 10. It has nothing to do with the accolades of past players. It has nothing to do with Johnny Arnett's supposed 'double standards'. It has to do with his own career. The fact of the matter is that statistically he is not top 10 at anything besides shooting.
The top 10 career ppg leaders are:
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Baylor
4. Durant
5. LeBron
6. West
7. Iverson
8. Pettit
9. Robertson
10. Gervin
He is a better scorer than Magic and a lot of top 10, but he is not a top 10 scorer by any stretch of the imagination, and his defense and passing being average is more than enough to disqualify him after taking that into account. The top 10 includes not only the greatest scorers in NBA history but also the greatest defenders in history. Curry is a career 24ppg despite being the greatest shooter in NBA history and having the green light every single time he steps on the floor.
@@poly_g6068 it does have to do with the double standards because this dude used those double standards to discredit curry
Also no it doesn't include the top 10 scorers and defenders. Wilt isn't a top 10 scorer, Magic isn't a top 10 defender. Curry averaged a 24 ppg for career because of his early seasons where he was Injured. It took a while to get there not because he couldn't but because he was injured. In fact statistically he's a top 10 scorer ever when you see what he's done. I can pull the stats if you want. He's the greatest shooter with the greatest gravity, a player that revolutionized the game and HAS the accolades to match with the other players. He has more on his resume than wilt, and Hakeem who were on the dudes top 11 players. By his standards alone curry is top 10 😂😂
@@lucidstudious750 I just gave you FACTS. Wilt is a career 30ppg. That is top 2 all-time, only behind Jordan. Let alone top 10. Are you seriously talking basketball? Some would even argue he's a better scorer than Jordan and is the greatest scorer in NBA history, since he was able to match Jordan's career points per game despite actively not trying to score for half of his career.
Wilt's accolades are leagues above Curry, and don't even get me started on Hakeem.
Hakeem is:
9x first team all-defense, nine (9)
2x DPOY
2x rebounding leader
3x blocks leader
1x league MVP
2x NBA champion
2x finals MVP
top 10 all-time in STEALS, despite not being a perimeter player
1st all-time in career blocks
Curry is:
1x steals leader
2x scoring champ
2x league MVP
4x NBA champion
1x finals MVP
1st all-time in 3 pointers made
The ONLY reason Hakeem is not top 3 is because he has 2 championships. How can you say Curry is better than Hakeem, when Hakeem is better at so many things, and is also a great scorer, if not just as good as Curry is, come playoff time?
In My Opinion He’s The 2nd Greatest Point-guard Of All Time
Same
Yes 2nd greatest PG for me as well but not in Top 10 for GOAT
This is not exactly a hot take at all
The order is Magic Curry, Zeek
@@taydakiss6396 Magic, West, Oscar, Curry
Great video Johnny love ur content man
Thanks Playmaker! Seriously appreciate that. Comments like this are motivating, so thanks
@@jonnyarnett omg you responded dudeeeee that comment doesn't begin to explain how frickin awesome your videos are, every time you drop a new one it's a guaranteed banger keep it up my guy 🔥🔥🔥
Waited for this video
10:30
You bring up a good point with the defensive team selections, but you gotta remember.
1. None of those players are Point Guards (except Magic, whom you've disqualified from the convo)
2. All of those players are over 6"6, Curry being 6"2/6"3.
And 3. Curry isn't nearly the athlete that these others are (he can barely dunk). Yes, defense should be considered, but this shouldn't offset Curry's input to a game as most people on this list were overrated defenders themselves. Magic Johnson usually defending larger slower players while Michael Cooper stuck with the speedier, faster, small guards. Same with Bird, who defended his position as well as the 4 (inconsistently), but couldn't consistently defend the 2 or the 5. Shaq was much the same way, as he was horrendous in the pick and roll, but could defend the post well and was a good weak side defender, so for him you'd be correct.
I'm not a "Curry is the GOAT" guy (I'm more of a Bird guy tbh) but some of these guys were slightly above average when put under a microscope and time has saved them and their images greatly
I see your point for the other positions,
Couldn't agree more with this sentiment. Shaq has a few all defensive teams too his name sure but let's not act like he was some elite defensive anchor. Not saying defense doesn't matter but elite defense shouldn't be a requirement
Lol The thing is curry dont had any strength on defense, he's small and unathlethic and defense is part of the game. Magic even tho he's not that good of a defender atleast he's tall and he can rebound, shaq can give you 3 blocks even tho he cant defend pick n roll, Bird even tho he's not athletic he stil a good rebounder and active defensively.
Another interesting point is that Bill Russell is in the discussion despite being all defense and no offense. No one else in the discussion is as bad offensively as Russell, but his championships and leadership give him the edge in most people's minds. So it's not that far fetched to say that Curry could be top 10 without being an elite defender.
@Tom Ford Is it tho? Cuz he's not a Bad defender, he's actually slightly above average as he averaged about or a little less than 2 SPG until 2018. I'm trying to find what the league average amongst guards were, but it's looking like I'll have to do some funky - probably wrong or inaccurate - math.
Teams in the NBA in Curry's career have averaged about 7.7 SPG. Divide that by 10 (most teams run a 10 man roster at most), you get .7 SPG/per player. So Curry for most of his career (according to my math) he's actually been above the average, especially in the 2015-2016 season
@@the010og good point. His D is not as bad as people say it is.
In my eyes, he's the second best PG of all time behind Magic. But there are so many great Forwards/Centers in the history of the league that it's hard for me to put him in the top 10. While our rankings might be a bit different, I'd say my top 10 consists of many (if not all) of the same guys as Jonny's in the video. But, instead of all of this "Who's better?" business, why can't we just stop and marvel at the fact that, every 5-10 years, we get someone new in the top 10 convo? I mean, that in itself is impressive. The league has been around for 75+ years and we're still getting guys that are breaking records and making names for themselves in the greater historical context of the league. That's what I'm here for. We live in a time where even "bad" teams have the chance to have All-Star/All-NBA calibre players. I mean, just look at the 2013 Draft. My team took a chance on a little-known European prospect who was too skinny to play in the NBA and now he's a 2x MVP, Finals Champ, and Finals MVP. That couldn't have happened even 20 years ago. This is such a fun time for the league! Congrats, Warriors, on your championship. In my humble opinion, the Finals this year were played by the two best teams in the league. I had Boston as my preseason champs and you can't ever really discount the Warriors. I'll stop rambling. Great video, Jonny!
Faxs
I have him Oscar and West ahead of him also so he’s not even a top 3 PG
Gei booty sex removes magic from the running, but there's an argument for Stockton
@@RetroNBA42 Karl, stop abusing girls, saying stupid shit and delete this account.
@@RetroNBA42 magic is definetly the greatest pg, but steph is without a doubt number 2, jw has 1 title same goes for oscar. they both have 1 mvp and oscar doesent have a fmvp.
Just curious… is the list at top 12 list at the end of the video in order? If not , how would you rank these players??
Can't say enough good things about Johnny Arnettl: Along with Clayton Crowley this is the best Basketball channel on youtube!
12th is perfect, so nice to see you no longer absurdly disrespecting Steph Curry like you did with your top 75 list
I have Curry secured in my top 10 by the simple fact that he is the face of the revolution of the 3 point era, and he isn't just a really good shooter, he dominated the league and he has 4 rings to prove it
Also the video had wayy too many double standards against curry
1. His defense. Bill was a average scorer for his position and below average scorer among the top 10 players of all time. Magic didn't even make a all NBA defensive team
2. Curry had help Hakeem didn't. That's bias towards Hakeem. He literally used Magic's accolades as a win for magic when magic had a top 3 player in his team for most of his career, and it didn't affect anything.
3. Bird had back problems. Ok curry had ankle problems, derrick rose had knee problems, etc. We don't deal in hypotheticals. What happened happened.
4. "Every player has a narrative and changed the game" that's such a lie lol. You can't use "he saved the game's tv ratings" and compare it to "this player changed fundamentally how we play basketball and view offense. Curry didn't just change scoring and the importance of 3 pts, he changed everything. Positions roles, defense, offense, coaching, scouting, etc. How did he disregard that with "well magic saved the NBA tv ratings" bruh 😑
@@lucidstudious750 exactly, u explained it perfectly
@@lucidstudious750 It's obvious you think Curry is top ten and that's fine, it's an opinion after all. However, I think it is blinding you to the impact both Magic and Bird had with revitalizing the NBA. Do you ever hear people talk about 70s basketball? I don't. It was a dark time and the NBAs image was not good. The Magic/Bird rivalry changed that. It wasn't all TV ratings, that is just an easy metric to show the effect.
Also, you have to understand that Curry needs to do more than other greats to overtake them. It may not be fair but that is how it works. They have already established their spot on the list and nostalgia/prevailing opinion is a hard nut to crack. Perhaps Steph is already there but I'm not quite sure he is. The wonderful thing is we have at least a few more years of him and his game should age quite well so I have no doubt he will crack the top ten.
I think we need to be careful with recency bias (as with nostalgia) because that's how Anthony Davis makes it to the top 75 all time even though, in my opinion, he should not have been there yet. Each person has their own criteria and that's what makes the debate fun and interesting
@Tom Ford no D? Do you even watch Curry play?
Another great video. Thanks bro
0:33 lmfao that pic
I have curry at #10, but only with disregarding Bill russel and Wilt. the 60s and below are way too different for me to compare them with players 80s+. So just kind of nick wright "top 10 players of the last 50 years" I would have curry top 10.
With the defense aspect of curry if he gets more all nba teams and another ring I don't think he should be too downplayed for it as magic wasn't a great defender either. Plus steph is not a total liablity and can have great defensive games just like game 6 of the last finals so its not like he's harden or anything.
Exactly what I've been saying. Harden literally stands around and does nothing on defense sometimes. At least Steph puts in the effort.
Yeah the game of basketball as the game itself wasn't matured enough
@@yunan9610 player's in the 60s paved the way for the player's of today. Bill an wilt are better than greater than curry
I agree. The NBA started in 1985. As Gilbert Arenas would say: "before 85? fuck outta here!" Even the 80's competition looks suspicious to me. A lot of players were on drugs etc, the league wasn't as good as it is today. Jordan made the NBA a professional sports league, guys make more money, competition was better. I'm not trying to discredit old players, I recognize what they did for the game. That said, guys like Bill Russel and Wilt get a lot of credit for playing against the worst competition ever.
Simple fact that he's being 6'2 in the discussion for top 10 and like in your case he isn't making it just bc he wasn't naturally gifted.
What if effort was a measure? To be naturally gifted and even a freak and have 0 DPOY should impact the legacy too, because as we can see, size does
If we would look at effort or achivements in the context of physical gifts the top 10 would look really different.
Jerry West, Larry Bird, Curry, ... Would all make a huge jump while Wilt, Bill, MJ, LBJ... Would drop down.
@@antipro4483 Bird was taller than MJ, unless you mean people are going to start measuring palms.
@@bowmanencore but Bird wasn't athletic.
@@antipro4483I see what you're saying, but it would be difficult to quantify that and then blame the people with too many units of athleticism. Height's an easier one to judge, but in different eras, it meant different things. Steph being short in the 3P era isn't particularly challenging in that he isn't being beaten down in the paint often. Isiah had it worse.
@@bowmanencore that's what i am saying. I just count achivements and skill relative to era. Physical factors are unfair but we can't quantify them.
Dope video dude. I gotta say that that top 12 best player list is very hard to argue with. Keep making great content!
Hey Jonny love your videos but could you make one on a forgotten all time great (if not for the major event that happened to him) Maurice Stokes
For me, I have to say. Rings are a big part of it.
So wilt in my opinion is definitely pushed out. I also have him ahead of hakeem, Shaq and bird to be honest.
His offensive game is elite no doubt everyone knows it, but the impact and control he has over the other team is absurd to see.
One of the biggest images that remains in my mind from these finals is how the dpoy Marcus smart on a fast break was face guarding Steph from his own court. Like he allowed the warriors play 4 on 4 because of the paranoia Steph causes teams to play with.
Defense might be important but Steph is a decent defender and dare I say good team defender with active hands and effort. While in my opinion having the most complete offensive bag ever: distance shooting, inside finishing, mid range, iso, off ball. In general I’d say the most deadly offensive weapon in basketball. So I got him in my top 10 and not at 10.
1 more ring, IMO he’s top 5
And in my opinion with out the screen string Marcus smart would have locked him down when smart was on him exclusively he shout in the 30s percentage wise but smart was not guarding him straight up due to a endless amount of screen to get him free space. Same thing when Tatum was guarding him. Let’s be honest here the Celtics lost the series on offense because Tatum and his inability to score the defense was great except on curry. Not fighting over screens and letting the big men get out in a spin cycle is why they lost that series.
The point I’m making here is curry is a great shooter but not not a great facilitator. He generates opportunities for his teammates with his off ball action. But again does not facilitate the offense green or someone else is setting teammates up while curry is running around. And we have the nerve to say he is one of the greatest point guards. He does not have a assists title. That’s like trying to argue a SG with no scoring title as as the best SG ever. Draymond led the warriors in assists 6 years. Nobody talks about this website they don’t want it to matter. Curry is not top ten with one finals MVP and 4 all nba first team selections. Let’s be fair here
The most complete offensive bag? 😅😅😅
Just go watch tape from MJs 98 season we will forget the other 10 years he was in his prime. 😂😂😂
@@jerryjackson9148 wtf are you talking about smart would have locked him down. I’m not doing any of this hypothetical nonsense. What happened in reality is that smart was his primary defender and Steph averaged 32 against the best defense in the league. That’s what I saw
And no the Celtics didn’t lose for any of the reasons you mentioned. They lost because the warriors were better, they lost because Curry was by far the best player on the court simple as that.
And so what if Steph does not have an assists title. The golden state warriors over their dynasty have a historically great offense and that offence only works because of Steph, without Steph the offence does not exist. That’s what I call a transcendent facilitator. He is not getting assists because their system wins more games like that. So why change that.
And what even makes assists the standard for a point guard, because old generation point guards only gave assists? That’s BS, they gave assists because they are not as skilled as present day guards. Basketball has evolved. Evolve with it. Why Tf would anybody have Steph be trying to orchestrate for Wiggins or Klay. I want Steph Curry scoring for me. If you decide that Steph should focus on assists not scoring it just means you’re playing losing basketball for the sake of your outdated view of a point guard
@@jerryjackson9148 yes Steph has a more complete offensive bag than MJ. Steph on your team makes your opponent’s defence worse just by his presence. He’s a great off ball scorer where MJ is pathetic at that. He’s a way better shooter that it’s not even comparable. He’s a better free throw shooter. His presence alone so many times makes you play 4 on 4 or 4 on 3.
@@jerryjackson9148 and yes he is top 10.
Mj, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Bill Russell, Steph, Bird, Shaq.
That’s my top 10
1 more ring? He over magic
Love the video.
In regards to PG conversation, I could say second. I don’t really have too large an opinion here though as I do normally separate Combo Guards from Point/Shooting Guards due to the difference in style and role. But were I forced to include him, I’m comfortable with second.
Top 10 you basically said what I’ve been saying since even before Curry got the ring. Curry made it so I have 12 Top 10 players; I’m not mad if you have him there and I’m not mad if you have him just outside. Personally I have Curry 11 over Shaq. Peak Shaq was at most 5yrs imho, and while Curry isn’t as dominant I don’t think he’s too far and he’s done it for long enough I’m okay with the conclusion. I’ll think about another ring if he gets to another finals.
I feel like people discredit Shaq's longevity, since he was roughly a top 5 player from 1994-2005, which is a pretty solid stretch compared to even all-time greats.
"isn't as dominant" depends on what dominant means to you. If you go by numbers Shaq was the most dominant center in his prime, EASILY. But if you take a broader look at it,
Take into consideration curry's gravity, how he is the leader of all time in wins added to a team, what he does, how unstoppable he is, his numbers, records and longevity he does have a case as a dominant force like shaw
Shaq was the worst thing to happen in basketball. Look how many 7' shooters we have now. Shaq is a hack
@@lucidstudious750 he was talking about Curry. which I disagree. his gravity speaks for itself
the thing is wilt chamberlain has to be the most overrated player of all time as i dont even think he should be top 10 curry knocks him out and barely squeezes into the top 10, the thing about nba players is that if they wanted to they could average as many points as they want in the regular season and thats what wilt chamberlain did, you can tell that he cares about numbers because of the sheer amount of pride he has, IMO his playstyle is very selfish unlike currys and that is shown in his playoff success. Some people would say that Wilt ran into Bill Russel and the celtics but I think if thats the case then why are you giving LeBron such a hard time, he ran into the golden state warriors dynasty and in 2 of those finals he had almost no chance and in 2015 his team was severely injured, as for his first finals run he faced the spurs with a g league team, what do you expect. So in conclusion Wilt is not a top 10 player all time and lebron is often over criticized for his finals record.
Arnett you. have the best NBA channel on youtube.
Yes Johnny! I’m a young NBA fan I don’t have Curry in my top 10 but I definitely have him in the top 15
All time point guards: 2nd overall
All time players: 6th-12th overall (these are honestly interchangeable considering my personal Top 5 are Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Magic & Duncan)
With one more title and finals MVP I have Steph top 10 solidified, at 8th.
Just kinda shows you how many amazing centers we had in the league
Thank u for putting duncan in the top 5. He is so underrated
@@imanolvides3185 I don't think a top 10 player can be "underrated".
@@imanolvides3185 he not better than wilt,hakeem,bill,kobe.
@@woketv781 yes he is. He has the peak, the longevity, efficiency and the competition none of those players have. He has more rings than wilt and hakeem, more finals mvps than everyone u named and has more mvps than kobe and hakeem. Wilt was selfish and duncan was selfless. Hakeem didnt dominate for a long period of time and duncan did. Bill russell wasnt a good scorer and duncan was. Kobe wasnt all that efficient and duncan was
@@gabrielnieves9974 i get what u mean, but ppl generally dont discuss him as one of the best of all time. Hes more of an after thought to most fans
For me curry is not in the top 10 conversation and can be as high at 7th for me.
If you are talking about talent and impact you legit have a conversation for top 5 or even 3 all time.
If you have curry or magic cause you thinks he’s a better player, you are valid to say this.
Very spot on Johnny!!!
I was waiting for this video to come out since the GSW won the 2022 championship.
Steph is somewhere between the 8-12 best players ever depending on what you personally value. For me he’s top 10 but still not on Magic’s level.
I think Stephen is 11 or 10. He’s tied in my opinion with Duncan who I have at 10 or 11.
For me Steph is 12-13 behind Hakeem and Shaq
@@cezaryadamski8786 I got him 12 Shaq 11 Hakeem 10.
@@machoboys8884 Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to hate here... But why do you think Curry is better than / tied with Duncan? I mean Duncan has more rings, more FMVP's, and just as many MVP's. He also has 15 All-NBA selections compared to Curry's 8, and 15 All-Defensive selection compared to Curry's 0 - Once again, zero.
The only argument I can see in favor of Curry is the impact he's had. But it's not like Duncan hasn't impacted the game in his one way - Hell, the current back to back league MVP Jokic is one of the players Duncan inspired. Did he have the same type of impact as Curry? Probably not, but I'd argue that the gap between their resumes (particularly when it comes to defense) is a lot greater than the gap between their impacts.
If Curry takes wins another ring, coupled with another FMVP's then sure. I could see an argument in favor of Curry. But as of now, I'm still not really seeing it...
Because Duncan’s later career is pretty overrated and his 2000’s career(especially 2003) is underrated. Duncan was realistically not always the best player when he won his rings. Sometimes he was even outperformed by guys like young Kawhi or Tony Parker. He’s still an all time great with a ton of achievements but as a player he’s not so good that he’s for sure ahead of Curry. So I don’t value a lot of rings he had as much as other people do because it was more of a team effort than Duncan outperforming the opposing players.
For now, he’s the second greatest PG and he’s my favorite player of all time. But he’s got at least 5-6 more years left in him, so I would bet that he’ll pass Magic in that time
idk bro passing magic would need another ring if not more in my opinion. Sustained dominance will only get him so far. I disagree with Jonny i think Steph is over Hakeem i have Steph at 11 all time in my opinion. I also think Bird is extremely overrated and that curry having help is not that different from Bird or magic having multiple all stars i think that narrative is dumb.
Magic got done dirty. Steph has played as many seasons as Magic's aids shortened career.
@@flyingpigmonkey1 Oh absolutely. If Magic played 15+ years like LeBron, MJ, or Kareem, there’s a good chance he would’ve been the undisputed GOAT. But both Magic and Bird had their careers tragically cut short
I don't see it at all. Magic did something to this game that I don't think Ai, curry, Kobe, MJ, Larry, or Shaq could even light a candle to. He has performances where you could say he is the undisputed goat and resumes that almost seemed untouchable. If only he played for 4 more years... Anyways, I think if curry keeps playing like a superstar, he could become #11 at the end of his career. Can't see him getting pass, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, MJ, Larry, Kobe, bill, Timmy d, LeBron, magic, or wilt though. They are untouchable imo. Maybe if curry had a legendary start like KD and LeBron did he could be
@@bonystickmanking1250 Curry is my #10 right now, I put him just ahead of Hakeem
The top 10 is stacked.
This can be the same top 10 where you can have, Kobe, bird, wilt, bill, Tim, shaq, hakkem, or even magic out of it.
And depending or your case might be valid.
Hey Jonny! you ever thought of doing a video about the CBA: Continental Basketball Association. very interesting league in my book!!
The competition argument you made for Bird can be applied to Steph as well since Steph & Bird played with HoF homegrown talent (plus Durant).
Hakeem has the two way argument & not having help, but that is it. Curry surpasses him in that regards. The winning matters as well as competition. Wilt had rules changed for him & he was a man amongst boys.... But Curry being the height & size that he is & literally morphing the game to his will is ridiculous. Being freakish athlete & having the physical traits for that of course gives Wilt that edge... Curry is 6'3'' with shoes and made the game with it is currently.
I will have Wilt & Hakeem below Curry as of now. Curry is #10
@Tom Ford But Curry has stepped up his D over his championship run.
Having help argument isn’t fair when all the greats had help… Just depended on when they go it.
@@omitn2011 No his D is average at best which isnt the case for all the other greats. Even Larry Bird was average on ball defender but made it up with his off ball defending! Hakeem second best player was some bum named Otis Thorpe in 1994💀 Curry has 4 future HOFers as his teammates and was an overrated player in the playoffs until recently. Curry is top 10 now for me, but not over Hakeem
@@chocamocha4541 & when Curry didn’t have any of them, he was a legit MVP candidate…
🤷🏾♂️ I will give you the defense but Curry is the reason the Warriors are even relate today.
@@omitn2011 And Where did that get him? Out of the playoffs losing to LeFraud?💀 Hakeem beat defending western champ Suns, Malone and Stockton Jazz then Pat riley and Ewing led Knicks
@@chocamocha4541 By himself? Without help?
While it's pretty difficult to imagine bumping anyone out of the generally held 'top ten', if Curry leads his team to another chip or two, he'll have forced his way in, IMO. Thanks for your presentation, as always, Jonny!
He'll blast his way into the top 10. For anyone who currently doesn't see him as top 10, Curry will blow his way into the top 10 as if he put 500lbs of TNT against a door if he gets 1 more ring and FMVP.
How is that an argument?? What if all his opponents are injured again??
Gonna just ignore his weak opposition in favor of ring count?? Let's just bring horry into the top 10 since we're ignoring talent and ability
@Fries injuries ring
@@rockysalvatore435 injury Is part of the game and 2016 warriors also had injuries when they blew the 3-1 lead with curry and iggy also bogut in game 5 of the finals
@@tj5180 also 2015 which no one mentions where each team GS faced was injured.
2014 Spurs went up against healthy teams. That's a real run boy. Not an asterisk
Steph is highly underrated on defence. His team always had a high defensive rating while he was on the floor. Sure he didn’t guard the opponents best player but he usually did a good job locking his matchup down. We all need to watch him play in the system to see how effective he actually is.
This video was perfect!!!
If steph had a Nike-backed marketing machine, I believe he would've have been appreciated more. Lebron moving teams once they were on a decline then claiming he has never had a super coach is pretentious. His presence in multiple finals kept him relevant and increased opportunities to win. Therefore, I don't sympathize with him facing a loaded warriors. At the same time, I dont believe Steph is as humble as people think Draymond and Warriors's management but him in place that he had to accept Durant into the organization. He never got a chance to run it back like 2014 Spurs.
He has definitely passed isiah now, to most people he already had but now theres no question.
I would beg to differ. Different eras. Zeke was the unquestioned leader of a Pistons team that went to three straight finals (in a more physical league) and it should have been four. It might be a consensus that he’s passed IT, but imo there’s still an argument.
He passed Isiah in 2016. 2 mvps are more than 0
Isiah’s best MVP placement was 5th… how do we have him in the same convo with Steph who won 2, one being unanimous?
@@michaelgieseler2799 that’s a strong argument, but different eras (again); Zeke played at a time when big men were dominant and he was more in the mold of a traditional point guard.
@@jadentesai that’s your metric (2 MVPs), but it’s not totally mines. Toughness, and big game performances matter. I watched a Curry led team blow a three game lead in the finals, with him being a no-show. I watched Zeke battle through a more physical era, against all time great competition, and get through it with two rings and one finals MVP, so miss me with the 2016 (because that’s way to casual).
For me, Steph is in the 3rd tier.
First tier is the true GOAT candidates, Jordan, Lebron, Wilt, Kareem...
Second tier is the guys that have a GOAT argument but it's honestly a little weak, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird...
Then in tier 3 you get the guys knocking on the top 10 door, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Steph, Big O, , Isiah, Stockton, KG, etc.
you're damn right about the first tier. Wilt and Kareem destroyed the league in their time!
I think Steph should already be in the Top 10, because he was robbed of one finals MVP in 2015, and his stats and dominance are something that are not shown in any stats, not regular, not advanced. The gravity that he has and the chaos he is able to create with his constant off ball movement is second to none. Steph makes his teammates better and his teams overall offence as well. So I would have him above Hakeem and Bill. Even though Hakeem is the most skilled center, his bad luck and only 2 rings hold him down for me in the list of the greatest players, and Bill. He was not a good offensive player, and despite being a dominant defender, offence is still more important. And Bill had the luxury to play in the most stacked team during his career with no free agency, so it was relatively easy to win so much, giving the circumstances. And if Steph wins one more ring, I'd have him above Tim Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Magic and Bird, and maybe, just maybe even Wilt, giving that his career achievements would be enough to be compared to them and the offensive impact that he has with his gravity would be enough to have the edge over these legends. Probably the only untouchable ones that Steph can never surpass are Kareem, Bron and MJ.
Is Steph the best NBA player under 6’5?
Personally I think yes
Easily
Yes
You kinda lost me with your defense argument when Bill russel is way inferior offensively than the others players on your list and magic is solidely on it despite the gap not being that huge (if it exists) offensively. I'd also say that I would factor in longevity in favor of steph compared to some of the players in the list but I may jump the gun on that one.
Right. Jony is a Lakers fan so he probably is not feeling good bout GS doing well..a NoCal team.
@@micahkiyimba8641 Lol I mean understandable. I am not even mad he doesn't have curry top 10 but I felt like his arguments were not as consistent as he made it seem.
@@dabilaroali1037 He was biased...Jxmyhighroller had Curry at 8 I believe
Additionally Jonny neglected to talk about Steph's defense at all this past season. He had the best defensive year of his career. He says (paraphrase) "Is his offensive ability so great that it outweights his shortcomings on defense?"
The answer by an EXTREME margin is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY. Steph is arguably the greatest offensive player ever, and honestly that shouldnt be arguable. Steph can be 0/10 from 3 and not score a single point in an entire half, and STILL draw double teams at half court. No other player in that list had that gravity. Shaq is probably the only player on that list who compares on the "strike fear in your opponent" scale, but he was also 7ft and 300 lbs of power. The fact that little 6'3 Steph can stand anywhere on the court and take up 95% of an entire team's defensive focus is the thing that tips the scale for Steph. Steph Curry's mere existence is enough to generate offense either from him or anyone else on his team. He's a walking +25 video game attribute card to everyone on his team. And he doesn't even need to be moving. HIm standing upright 30ft from the basket is all it takes.
Now on top of all that, for his size and strength, Steph is actually a plus defender. He'll never make an all defensive team. He will never lock up the opponents #1 option for a full game. But he is a great team defender, and a very good on ball defender when 1) defending guys similarly sized, and 2) using his hands to get steals on bigger guys.
Saying all 11 of those guys are better defensive players is a literal copout when you factor in their sizes. If Steph had Magic's size, he probably wouldve made 1 all-defense team even if it was a 3rd team defense. Every one of those players on that list was 6'6+ and much more athletically gifted. For all the similarly sized great PGs (Kidd, Stockton, Nash, Maravich, Paul), how many are even in the same universe as Steph offensively? Here's a hint Jonny, it rhymes with nero. And not a single one of those guys I mentioned are in the top 15 because they did not accomplish nearly as much as Steph has.
On his BEST day, Steph is a B grade defender. But on that same day, he is a AAA+++ platinum grade offensive player. On his worst day he can be a D- defender, but still be a B- offensive player simply due to his gravity.
That all being said, I still think with that top 11 list, its hard to boot anyone out of that. But here's the easiest solution. There needs to be a cut off. There is just no way to compare the style of the games played now vs when Russell or even Wilt played. If we call post 1985 NBA the birth of the "modern" era, it takes out Wilt and Russell. Those two are #1 and #2 GOATs of the pre-modern NBA. Post-modern NBA should have its own GOAT list. While I have no doubt that those two players would still be great if they had played in that newly defined modern era, its only speculation and we'll never really know.
So here's the final conclusion. In the modern NBA, the top 10 GOATs in no particular order (because that will forever be argued after MJ):
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
Curry
Byrd
@@cheekypasta55 I agree with your points , especially the need to cut off the eras at one point because comparing a player like curry to players from an era where the 3pt line was not even a thing sounds pointless to me.
I was writing a whole paragraph about defense being lost in these conversations, and dude starts talking about Defense being important. Gotta give him a sub for that.
This is a nice video with significant thoughts put into it...your points on the "simpler path to the NBA Finals for Magic is very true." It was the very same for LBJ in the Eastern Conference for the majority of his time in Cleveland and Miami ironically. If you're going to "value up" defense in a way that pushes down Curry, you need to do the same with Bill Russell who was "average as a scorer" when compared with anyone else in the Top 10. Further, each person in your Top 11 is no less than 6'6" (or basically 4' taller than Curry.) Further, only MJ had the level of impact on the game that Curry has had. All of these Top 11 were bright, shining stars that carried the NBA brand further, but none of them can be said to have elevated it like MJ or Curry (each in their own way.) Finally, while it is true that we can't compare eras fairly, one must recognize the fact that the "average" NBA player is more talented, faster, stronger, more fit with more stamina (and probably taller) and better coached than the average NBA player during the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and so on. This is the case in all major sports. While we need to be careful not to discount the past eras, we should be wary of discounting this "higher talent" factor that is present in today's game. (Note: Talent, speed, strength and coaching is higher, not to mention physical therapy/nutrition and recovery...but not necessarily skills on average.) With that said, this will never be cut and dried and anyone who is Top 15 is truly "Pantheon Level" as a player in the 75 year history of the game.
Considering the 1st time I watched the NBA was when the Spurs last won, I believe it would be odd of me to not have Curry anywhere near my top 10, but there's more. Yeah, the NBA legends you mentioned all have narratives as well as Curry, but that's the reason why we need to praise Steph's narrative. He impacted defenses so much over the past 7 years, that we see even the best defensive players give a lack of effort at times. 2 pointers are more impactful than 3's because of defense heavily focusing on the perimeter which lead to wide open layups and dunks. I'll say guys like Dwight Howard, De'Andre Ayton and Andre Drummond mainly score off of that nowadays. Curry's size and stature allows him to have a play style that can be replicated more than any other legend besides maybe Allen Iverson, which is why Curry is at least a top 4 player ever on impact alone (argued with MJ, Kobe and AI.) Then when you consider my opinions of Hakeem having an play style that can not be replicated (besides maybe Joel Embiid, but even his footwork isn't Hakeem's) and Curry being the best player on a winning Finals team just as many times as Hakeem, Wilt and Russell dominating and impacting a much weaker era than Curry, and Curry winning with a second best player in Andrew Wiggins while Shaq always needed a Hall of Fame worthy guard or wing to never be on a losing team in his entire career, and I consider Stephen Curry #8 on my top 10. Top 2 point guard ever with Magic? Phh...you would be foolish to consider anyone else at this point.
ok so hes 8 on your list, that means hes over shaq and 3 of the other 11 players jonny mentioned. Who are the 3?
@@kbak1919 hakeen, wilt, Russell
^^^ yeah I’d like to know your argument behind it as well
While I respect your opinion. Please watch the video back & realize that there is 2 sides to basketball. DEFENCE MATTERS & Shaq was the last man to 3 peat & did it with back to back to back FMVP lol they had to create hack a Shaq just to have a CHANCE at winning
@@Rilzars What I'm saying is that Curry can lead a team better than Shaq.
I'd take Shaq out of that top group and put Curry in there to represent this era.
You sound crazy asf!!! How do you casuals and non players keep disrespecting Shaq? If a guy that dominated from day one and winner of 3 straight finals MVPS ain't at least in your top 10 is ridiculous
@@cojack636 true niggas be shitting on shaq im not too old but I watch every nba finals from 91 till now with yt and nba tv and Prime shaq is nothing short of greatness he deserves way more respect
@@cojack636 Amen.
@@cojack636 Shaq is top 10 but he's not better than curry
@@ktapreswreckd921v9 curry better Shaq
Early gang!
Yo nice video
PLEASE
A VIDEO ON DREAM TEAM 2 (94 FIBA TEAM)
WHAT IF THE ABA MVP WENT TO THE BEST PLAYER
HOW GOOD WAS ALONZO MOURNING ACTUALLY
I have a question, why is MJs 6/0 in the finals record seem so much more impressive than other people who made it to the finals more but lost some? Shouldn't we be giving props to people for making it to the finals? Shouldn't MJ get some flack for not making it to the finals more? Would love to hear some peoples opinions on this.
because he never lost and always came big when he needed too. you can't really same the same of others. That's not the case for Bill, Wilt, Lebron or Kareem.
There is something to be said about getting to the Finals because not everybody makes it. But 6-0 is more impressive to me because Jordan always showed up big and never failed in the Finals. And he still has more rings than others who have made the Finals more. Technically, making the Finals and losing is still better than not making the Finals at all. But Finals losses are generally viewed as more legacy tarnishing because it is the NBA's biggest stage. I will gladly give props to those who make the Finals as long as we don't create a false equivalence between getting to the Finals and winning the Finals.
Someone explained it this way on a video somewhere here on youtube i think..but he said something like "which is better..going to your gf house 10 times and scoring 4 times or going to your gf house 6 times and scoring all 6 times?"
@MyKro Nesian
That’s funny, this guy gets it
But if MJ was that amazing wouldn't he have brought his team to the finals more than 6 times?????
Congrats on sponsor also well deserved paycheck 👏🏾
If he wins the ring, which 2 players will you take out?
Curry's not a point though, he's just put in that slot because of his height basically. We need another classification for the tweeners and those who don't play the traditional role of their assigned position.
Steph was third in the league in assists in 2014, don't be ridiculous.
Joker runs the point in Denver, is he a PG?
Curry is listed as a point guard, and that's what matters.
I'm glad someone else said it he's not a true point he slides from one to two throughout the game.when he has the ball too much he gets bullied and they make him play off ball Reggie Miller type plays. It's common now for players to play 3 position when 30 years ago players rarely shifted. LeBron plays 1 thru 5, KD plays 3,4. Tmac played 123, Iverson was a combo guard. Magic could play any slot but he still facilitated his team like a point that's what made him a true point for me.
@@most5795 most great players can slide to different positions. The video showed that magic played center. But her was listed as pg and that's how he should be viewed. Same as steph
@@camdonking1919 Steph plays combo to relieve his point duty's when the defense is shutting him down. Magic played center because his center was injured and he can play center, he wasn't trying to run up stats or avoid a killer defense matchup he was trying to win. There's a difference where analytics is killing the history of the game
@@most5795 "he wasn't trying to run up stats or avoid a killer defense "?? Both are doing what was required for then to win. Steph can dominate on and off ball.That's a testament to both of their abilities. Steph off ball offense literally creates open shots for his teammates
In terms of NBA finals MVP, Steph and Magic should be 2 to 2 considering steph was robbed in 2015 and magic gifted kareem's in 1980. Like Bird, Steph endured his fair share of injuries early in his career explaining the fewer All-NBA accolades. Recognizing that Steph like Bird played in harder conference is crucial. The 2016 western conference finals was intense and discounting that steph's injury was a factor is disingenous. He played with an injury that required 6 weeks minimum rest.
These are a lot of familiar names in the top 10 to 12 convo, but the order of them is very interesting and unique. I feel like most people have Bill Russell ahead of Wilt, LeBron ahead of Kareem, Magic slightly ahead of Bird, and Kobe/Duncan/Shaq ahead of Hakeem. I'm not mad at it though, I agree with some of it such as Hakeem being ahead of Shaq, Duncan and Kobe as well as Bird being slightly ahead of Magic.
Idk how is it possible but every video that you make is straight facts
Jonny, thank for finally recognizing Steph Curry's ONLY deficiency - DEF. What us basketball fans should realize is all lists are subjective and each new generation elevates the game to new heights.
The term "Point Guard" is irrelevant, because ball-handling skills are mastered by 7-footers now.
Steph Curry should be on everyone's Top 12 All-NBA list, or at least Top 5 NBA Guard list.
tbh he is not even that bad of a defender, he is decently good off ball in passing lanes and has been a good on ball defender pretty recently. He is a bad defender compared to MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, and a bit worse than Larry, but he is on par with Magic and some other greats
@@Charlie-jf1me 100% Agree. A Steals title or 1st NBA Defense would close the DEF issue.
@@averyce2 he has a steals title but in no way will he get 1st team all defense there is a slight chance for a 3rd team all defense but i doubt it since hes aging is showing
@@smokey_mk2 no 3rd team defense
He is in my top 10. I value overall impact of a player over individual skillset..which is why I got Shaq ahead of Hakeem
1: Michael Jordan
2: LeBron James
3: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4: Larry Bird
5: Magic Johnson
6: Bill Russell
7: Wilt Chamberlain
8: Kobe Bryant
9: Shaquille O’Neal
10: Tim Duncan
11: Stephen Curry
12: Hakeem Olajuwon
13: Kevin Durant
14: Moses Malone
15: Dwyane Wade
16: Giannis Antetokumpo
17: Isiah Thomas
18: Jerry West
19: Dirk Nowitzki
20: Kevin Garnett
21: Bob Pettit
22: Julius Erving
23: Elgin Baylor
24: Oscar Roberson
25: Karl Malone
26: David Robinson
27: Chris Paul
28: James Harden
29: Charles Barkley
30: George Gervin
31: Scottie Pippen
32: Kawhi Leonard
33: Walt Frazier
34: Steve Nash
35: Willis Reed
Great List 👍🏻
Oscar, West and Dr. J should be Top 10 imo..
I would have Giannis and Isiah in between 20-30..
Wade infront of giannis 💀
KD 13 really?)) It's not even close) He is very good shooter but that's All.
@@vb2388 curry is top 5 all time
Curry is better than lebron 💯. Put curry at #2
I totally agree with the video.
I also want to add Steph Curry is the greatest playmaker with his off-ball movement. He bends the defense like no one else and makes his teammates so much better than so many of the legends that came before him.
No shade towards Steph but I've got to put him at #3 PG myself. Isaiah Thomas was a beast on offense & defense.. his dribbling skills are almost ignored. Steph is hands down the best shooter we've ever seen. I am a fan from the late 70's and I remember games especially during Detroit's run that I thought tons of players should be arrested. The game has changed so much and I think the shooter's reap the benefits.
1. Magic
2. Isaiah
3. Steph
Thomas doesn’t compare to curry now I’m sorry
I have Curry in 11th after his 4th ring & Finals MVP. He's the 2nd best PG of all time in my opinion behind Magic. To make it into the top 10 for me I'm not sure what he'd have to do for me to place him there. A 5th ring & 2nd Finals MVP would maybe do it but I would have to really think about it.
then you are clearly a hater.
Magic didn't play in the era of jordan, and he had a top5 player of all time on his team. curry has 4 rings during the lebron era.
One more ring & FMVP puts him top 5
@@kbur2050 How is it the Lebron era when Curry has the same amount of rings? Lebron needed to keep changing teams to win his rings as well while Curry & Magic stayed on the same teams their entire career.
@@bamshakfwangyil1301 How? How would he make the top 5 with 5 rings & 2 Finals MVPs? Who does he go ahead of?
How you feel about Nick Wright's list?
Love the video very respectful with Curry and others legends ! No play favoritism, too me curry is a top 10 all time, but I really love the video even with we both having a different opinion
Curry case which he kinda explained in this video for him to be top 10 in this video, is you believing he’s a top 10 talent, created the goat team, created a dynasty and arguably being the most impactful player for not his team but the nba.
However any of these things can easily be out the window.
And unfortunately people realized so they try to attack Kobe and Tim fans cause apparently “they ain’t top 10”
Anybody who has Kobe outside the top 10 is an idiot who should never speak on hoops again.
Same with Duncan. Winning rings is HARD.
Johnny while I respect your list I think I would change a couple things. Here is my list (with a couple explanations below:
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Curry (if Curry gets one more Title or MVP he would move ahead of Duncan just simply because he had a bigger influence on the game, If he gets both another MVP and a title then I would consider him equal to or greater than Magic and the best PG of all time)
8. Bird
9. Russell
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Shaq
13. Dr. J
14. Moses
15. Giannis
16. KD
Curry is not above Magic (yet) but his resume is certainly above or surpassing Bird. As great as Bird was people just say his name aknowledge he is a legend and then move on but seriously. Curry has everything Bird has and more. People put Bird higher without doing the research and just say stuff like Bird was clutch and Curry is not. However, Bird was not in this day and age or level of scrutiny. Number wise Curry is the better playoff and finals performer and its not even really all that close. If thats the Case he is even over Kobe as well.
Steph's impact on an NBA game you are underestimating every time I have seen you talk about him. No one is going to say he is a great defender but I think you do underestimate his impact on the Offensive end. Its not just his numbers (which are good but do not stand out among the other greatest players ever) but its about his style of play that leads to teams success. He would loose to every player on this list if its about who wins 1 0n 1 but were not talking about that we are talking about who is the best at 5 on 5 basketball and Curry's combination of unselfishness and BBall IQ, along with his all time great levels of shooting, ball handling, movement without the ball and passing makes him a one of a kind offensive threat that makes even elite defenses scared and causes his teamates to be readily involved and better. His one of a kind style of play and ability make him unique and perhaps the greatest offensive player of all time when it comes to team basketball. His teams literally (as long as he is on the floor) lead the leaugues in assist for every year since 2015 (accept for the year he was out with the wrist injury) that is what you call team impact at its finest.
Curry has similar accolades to Bird (for me 3 MVPs in a row are still greater, but i won't argue with you in this one), but Bird is probably the smartest player ever and therefore he played to win. He still has the third highest win % of any star (behind Magic, who had a far easier conference and Kawhi, who isn't even in that conversation). Bird's dominance and skill relative to his era is still ahead of Curry's.
So I didnt mention this in my original post but players 4 - 14 on my list are all so extremely close. They are all in one giant second tier to me and I understand if someone has them in a different order (especially, 2 right next to each other like Curry and Bird). Having said that. I do think that both of them are brilliantly smart and unselfish players. Its just that I think Curry's shooting (especially deep shooting and movement without the ball opens up the floor for his teammates more, along with what could be called relatively comparable stats).
Lebron not top 10 all time
@@juwantaylor5293 how? his accolades surpass all but arguably 3 players
@@christopherbarber5213 Bird was better passer and better playmaker than Curry. Also, he has more important steals than Curry and Doncic is the perfect example that Bird could play in this era while people doubt that Magic could do it. And Wilt beat a prime Kareem with a broken knee and phisically was better than Alcindor cause Kareem always had problems when game became tough
My only flaw with the defense argument is that yes everyone else on the list has the defensive accolades but steph has led the league in steals on separate occasions (you asking him to be an interior lockdown at 6’2/6’3?) and he most definitely steps up his defensive intensity when it matters most ex. this years finals run. I don’t think there is any “weak point” in stephs game that enables the argument he’s not top ten, the only way you can argue that is if you put together an opinion based list with players who you feel are better, and there’s nothing wrong with that it’s just you can’t knock stephs D when his defense is good and helps his team
I have Curry in the top 10. I have at 9 above Olajuwon. Russell is right on the outside now at 11. Wilt is behind him then KD. He's done enough to pass up Olajuwon although the difference in defensive ability makes it a polarizing subject.
Give Steph his credit, he’s not a great defender, but he’s made massive improvements in the last few years
Still not as good as the rest of the top 11
@@sebastianugalde I could also say the same offensively for the rest of the list
@@kon2078 It's not comparable tho, Curry's offense doesn't make up for his defense while the rest of the List still have great or amazing offense while also having elite defense.
Best SCORING point guard ever. And as a playmaker guard well not even top 10. The things are clear like that I think hehe
No he is a top 5 playmaker ever but go off bozo
@@marianasalter9664 he is a great playmaker but I don’t think he is at the same level of the all time masters on the field like Magic, Nash, Stockton, Kidd, etc
@@VaroSisti as a passer he’ll no and I agree with Nash and magic but
His off ball playmaking alone clears every but lerbon magic Nash and we’ll that’s it
As a passer he is not top 50 but his gravity alone makes him too 5
Ótima análise
Love your video (again) good point about not automatically putting him above some two way stars ahead of him. But wouldn’t necessarily say that for magic or Larry but of course they contributed in a multitude of ways. And as far as lares competition wouldnt say anything about steffs west competition at all I’d probably say his toughest opponent was that rockets and cp3 team. But what you said about meeting the mighty magic can be said for curry meeting Lebron. Of course steff got the best of him three times but the 2016 finals showed if there’s even a slight chance or if you don’t play perfectly Lebron will win. So beating Lebron thrice should be a plus for steff today
Impact and contribution to winning is what makes you great. From skills to leadership to innovation to building gs from the bottom, curry can’t be beat. Mid top 10 for sure to me.
You made a solid case about that with defence being an aspect not taken seriously.... For me even with one more ring, he won't make it to top 10 till his defence improves a lot
magics defense isnt good lmao, at least compared to the top 10. nobody ever talks about his defense at all compared to the other. sure magic is better at defense then curry, but nobody cares about point guard defense, and the gap between offfense of curry is bigger than defense of magic.
@@thenigeriantrain It is absolutely hypocritical. People would shoot back saying that Magic was a better defender but how good was he if he didn't make an all-defensive team? How much better was he at defense than Steph. Odds are most people don't know because they haven't watched, and even if they did watch, the game is so much different know than it was in the 80s and so judging defense between eras is too hard. People will say Steph had better teammates, but Magic literally had prime Kareem and even as Kareem aged he was still great! And he had Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Norm Nixon (Who from 1980-1982 in the playoffs average 8 assists to Magic's 9 and 19 points to Magic's 18), and Michael Cooper who was the 1987 DPOY. So to argue that great teammates and defensive shortcomings are preventing Curry from being in your top 10 is hypocritical when somebody has Magic Johnson in their top ten.
@@aaronperez9105 I think he should only talk about greatest, then maybe I would respect it better but also I would rather put him over wilt and Hakeem, and maybe Russell because of the context
Then you better keep that same energy about Lebron with his weak ass defense.
@@GreenEnvy. nah lebron is a good defender, at least near his prime. He has made all defensive teams and in his prime aka Miami was a good smart versatile defender.
I have a hard time putting players who are still playing and creating their legacy in the top 20, even Curry, though I have been following the Warriors for almost 50 years. Lebron is the one current player I have already put there (he's #3 on my list).
That said, I pretty much agree with everything you've said in this video abut Curry, inclusive that one more title and All NBA selection will make a very good case for his being part of the top ten. He has also been working to improve his D every year, and last year it was pretty good, even his on-ball D, which has been a weakness in past years.
Please apply for espn and get to keep full rights to your channel bro you’re amazing and this stuff.