Cool video. I will say that looking at "max damage" is kind of odd. It's a useful metric for accessing "one-shot" possibility, but you also need to adjust for likelihood. Krasis, for instance, doesn't look that impressive when it attacks 3 times, but that's because you assumed a few weird things: 1) All 3 attacks have a significant crit chance (since you accounted for the +2 damage from crits on all 3 attacks); you "max damage" output is a 1/8,000 chance...not a meaingful piece of the probability pie.
Thank you for the clarifications. It’s Awesome DC team stopped by to check us little guys out. Woohoo. I did not account for probability for sure. I tried to look at it individual attacks but yes 1/20 x 1/20 x 1/20 chance equates to 1/8000 chance. I would only say that it has to apply to the heroes as well, and it hurts my head to think about how long it may drag combat out 😊. For my “who’s a better killer video”, i purposely left out probability and looked for Max damage output. I think if If I used averages, we would be back in the same place with x2 the amount of time to finish the battle in some cases but the fighter should be able to knock out the commoner less amount of time or even the first round so I can see your point there. The dice giveth and the dice taketh away though, and the odds are in the fighters favor to win. It’s a what if the commoner got the drop on you? Would you survive? Kind of scenario. I’ve also heard I should have added maneuvers but I wanted to have a simplified view. I’m not sure if it’s weird 😢😂❤. I’ve been on the discord but I’ll try to stop by more often. I’m very thankful you stop by and shared your knowledge about DC 20 it really helps clarify a lot of things, thank you
I had a similar assumption. I was hoping there was a section on that monster packet that had things to consider or add these abilities to Lurkers. I did see DC just made a video about the stat blocks and he mentioned there will be something like that.
Lurker,brute etc is an easy way to know what the monsters strategy will generally be. Brute=front line. Lurker acts similarly to a rogue. That kind of thing.
@@brencelionheart6837 I see. I figured something similar. Do you know if he’s released better monster creation based on these descripters? I’ve not seen or gotten anything from Kickstarter
@@RPGBoonsDF3 it was in one of his most recent videos. I can't seem to do links for some reason. I'm really looking forward to the game. Although to a certain extent it does seem like every character is reasonably good at everything.
When calculating damage you are assuming 3 attacks, and you are referring to max dmg, can I ask why that is? I would always spend at least one attack with advantage - higher hit chance and damage potential. I can see the text in the Monster Starter pack as well with "A player usually makes two attacks" - which is not what I've seen in my experience. Thoughts? It's great to have the max damage for the risk calculation you talk about, but the average actions taken and the average damage would be interesting too
@@nikwintren the first video, edits a better killer, I was measuring maximum output of fighter class in 5e vs dc20. I kept it here. It’s really to see damage can you do on your turn if you reached first for both that video and this one. I realize the probability is low for that many crits but it was a max damage test. I was asking what would happen if a monster got the best case scenario for damage round one. With averages, the difference are not as noticeable and dc20 fighter does better. With the current monster creation table, the commoner has a better chance of causing some serious damage. I wear aiming to weaken them. Thank you for your comment and input
I'll try. I actually don't know how but give me a few minutes here. If you reading this now below are the fastest ways to get a copy, if on phone, keep phone horizontal, screenshot, and email yourself. If PC, use the snipping tool. If you don't have it on your window start button, search for the app. I've never had a computer without it. Snipping tool allows you to screen shot anything and that can be pasted on email, word, or powerpoint.
Couple of things. First, i think youre handling stacking disadvantage incorrectly. You are treating the second attack that uses the extra action point as a repeat penalty reset, and that is not the way it works. The 3rd attack made with the final action point will be at disadvantage 2 (roll 3 d20s take the lowest). This makes the 1 round commoner kill much less likely but still possible technically. Second, if a commoner is able to just wale on you for a full round and somehow lands all crits it makes sense that you would die at low level. Even if youre a warrior wearing plate armor, if some crack head stabs you in the neck 3 times youre gonna die. The fact that in this comparison a low level fighter (level 4 instead of 2 like dc20 for some reason? Why not compare equal level?) when taking maximum damage from a commoner can tank 6 rounds of critical hits actually makes 0 sense. Like a sleeping fighter can get jumped by a commoner and say, “ugh, 18 more seconds im sleepy” as they get stabbed and not have to worry about dying haha what this comparison is showing me is how quickly dnd rockets you into super hero status. Im sure when all levels for dc20 are out you will also get there, but as far as the damage/hp comparison it seems dc20 wants to stay more real world grounded at low levels. Third, i agree “minion” class creatures should have lower modifiers. Minion sounds to me like the MOST powerful minion should be a commoner and it should only go down from there. It seems to me that you like the super hero side of being an adventurer. I think a lot of the types of critiques in this video will probably be alleviated when higher levels are released, but who knows for sure. Even if I dont think they are appropriate critiques for this low of a level personally, definitely good to put it out there that we eventually want to be able to sleep through a commoner attack without fear of dying when we are famous adventurers of the land! 😂
Pt.1 Nice. Thank you for the disadvantage correction. I've looked at the beta rules and could not find the correct answer. When I was working on the two weapon fighter, I just happen to see DC live #5 stream and he mentioned the adv given on that second attack makes it refresh to disadv 1 on the next but, I wasn't sure if that was true for all attacks. You can imagine going back wasting time to fix everything, yarg! Pt2. About the commoner damage, I see what you mean about the circumstance. In the video, it's a min maxer type deal. A what if he go to go first and lands max. I make a deal about it here because in D&D that commoner would take 3 round to knock out a level 2 fighter or 6 rounds for that lvl4. I struggle with the plate being so weak against a dagger. I understand coach is staying low but, I really think those PDRs on armor should be higher (example in Asst. Coach Notes Vid). Third point, we are now of one hive mind . . . :-) Pt4. I'm a mixed bag about "reality" based damage. I started with 1e and that was Grit Incarnate. I do appreciate the extra stuff a player can do as the editions went up. I look at DC20 and I see a mix of old school and new school. I agree with you it's all preference and open to it all really. You can't argue wit me though (or can you) that watching Legolas or Gimli shred orcs in matter of seconds with one blow is not the Fiyah! Thanks for the fantastic response.
@@RPGBoonsDF3 For #2, idk if you were aware of this, but in the olden days dagger were actually extremely effective against plate armor enemies because it was nimble and could be used to go between armor and into the gaps. It was a common strategy for armored opponents to try and throw the other to the ground and then jump on top of them and pull out a dagger to start trying to push into the eye slit or neck gap or whatever gap they could find in plate armor. So, when we're talking about a critical hit, it's not a matter of a dagger piercing through a sheet of metal but rather a dagger avoiding the armor entirely. So, based on the mechanics saying a critical hit always hits no matter the AC, this makes perfect sense. So don't think of it as dagger through a plate of metal but rather dagger around a plate of metal. For #4 this is personal opinion of course, but I think keeping low levels grounded then growing into a super hero is a better path than very quickly becoming super human. I guess it depends on how far along a persons journey of growing in power has to progress before they're an "adventurer". I see a lvl 1 adventurer as basically a specialized commoner, but you could just as easily start "adventurer" status after you're already well above the strength of a commoner. Also, nobody on this planet can argue that Legolas and Gimli tearing through hordes of orcs and goblins is not epic as hell, but I would say you'd have an equally difficult time arguing that they are adventurers between levels 1-4 haha. In my mind they have to be a minimum of lvl 10 if not lvl 20 outright 🤣
@@RangerIV these are great points. I really don’t disagree with your points. They’re good. I totally can see an agile character bobbing and weaving, looking for gap areas in the armor. LOTR!!!!!
I have soooo many questions. Why do you consider 3rd Attack to have just 1 DisADV? Normally 1st attack will have none, 2nd will have 1 DisADV, 3rd will have 2 DisADV, and 4th will have 3 DisADV. Here you sacrifice your 4th AP for an ADV for 2nd attack, so 2nd attack will have no DisADV. But your 3rd attack will still have 2 DisADV. Also, why do you consider every hit be a critical? That's not even representative, it's just a least possible scenario, so you just cannot rely on 1/160000 possibility for the combat output. That wrecks all your statistics and makes your conclusion unsubstantial! How could you even come out with this idea???
You're right about the advantage stack. I think I misunderstood when DC mentioned in one of his videos that a two weapon fighter resets the first disadvantage. It's not listed any where in the books though however, you're the 2nd or 3rd person to bring that up so, I'm think ya'll are right. I don't disagree with the 1/20 x 1/20 x (1/20 x 1/20 x 1d20) chance to land 3 crits ( I think that's like 1 in 3 million). In the who's a better killer video, right before this one, I gave the fighter the same odds. 1 regular roll, 2 points to one more with no disadvantage, and a 3 third roll some of you say will be a 3d20 roll. It was the easiest way to max damage an attack. I think I could do a crit and a 2 tier breaks and and a 1 tier. That would need to be applied to the attacking monsters as well to make it equal. I think it'll take much longer to reach the end but, the deficiency would still stand. Thank you for leaving your break down. It helps me think about my break downs, and I love it!
@@RPGBoonsDF3 if you want to make a true statistics, you should use the average damage. Here it's easily calculated. Just tale the average rollresult (10,5+4), compare It to an average PD (10) and you would get the average damage of 1. If you have any ADV, It probably would deal a Heavy Hit, resulting in +1 damage. Also you may make a Skill Checks and use conditions to maximize the damage output. It may be not so relevant in terms of studying the damage statistics, but it's definitely relevant while in group combat.
I think I will disagree with you reducing minions' defense stats. Now don't get me wrong, minions should absolutely be the easiest monsters to kill; but them being 1 to 2 hp already accomplishes that. Almost all weapons deal a minimum of 1 damage, and it's very easy to get more from manoeuvres, weapon styles, or just rolling high enough. A level 1 fighter will have a +4 attack bonus, so a minion with PD 6 (maximum according to your table) will literally die on anything except nat 1. Even with DisADV3, that's an 81.45% chance of instant kill. That to me doesn't sound fun. Small groups of minions are no threat at all, and large groups bottleneck the encounter into only two possible playstyles - AOE, or 'I smack them with my weapon four times'
I see your point. The one thing I was betting on was the use of many minions. I stated 20 in the vid but that’s just made up. You can imagine though, one level 2 fighter, have a squad coming at them, staggered so they all don’t reach at the same time, I think you could have some hero epic take downs. Thank you for your comments. Feedback Really helps with my planning on next videos for organizing and trying to be better at providing good info. .
Ok so similar to you last fighter video you are showing extreme bias toward 5e. youre using lvl 4 for 5e, but lvl 2 for DC20. Big difference in health and other stats. Then you are leaving out things for the DC20 fighter that completely change the outcome. Like a shiled would add 2 pd making brutals impossible from the commoner, and after a hit following attack had additional disadvantage. Also you say you gave the best armor, but that would mean the PDR would be 2 not 1, and if the fighter uses Raise shield manuever it reduces damage by 2. Meaning the commoners att does 0 dmg. Oh you also forgot Second wind that imediantly heals 2 hp and gives you 2 SPwhen you drop to half health. So many things you leave out of course the 2nd lvl DC20 fighter looks worse,compared to the 4th lvl 5e fighter.
Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it. I used a lvl4 5e fighter because the lvl2 DC20 fighter has received an ability score improvement already and comes with combat maneuvers. 5e lvl2 fighter does not. I suspect the DC20 PCs are front loaded with score improvement and traits because DC had not originally intended the characters to go beyond level 10. He alludes to this in many videos. As for the PDR of 1, it is based on the .8 beta core rules packet that was released to backers back in June? I don't remember. Please see beta 0.8 Core Rules page 78 Armor Table on right column showing +1 PDR and +1 PD.
@@RPGBoonsDF3 I understand you were trying to make it seem fair or equal between the two, but you really are not. Your Commoner with 4HP, & 8PD/8MD, would likely have 2 AP not 4 as per the stat range table. This would make the attacks equal as 5e fighter gets 2, commoner get 1. DC20 fighter get 4, commoner gets 2. The fewer attacks in combination with the defensive maneuvers in my previous comment means the DC20 fighter would last much longer against the commoner. Here is a number comparison with lvl 2 fighter HP corrected, I think you forgot fighter get +1HP/lvl. ~ DC20 lvl 2 Fighter 13 HP (wrong in video), Att=+4(3/stat+1/CM) ~ D&D 5e lvl 4 Fighter 48 HP, Att = +6 (4/Stat+2/Prof) ~ DC20 lvl 4 Fighter 17 HP, Att=+5(3/stat+2/CM) As you can see the ASIs the DC20 fighter get still don’t bring it on par due to the cap of 3 at low levels, even without the subclasses 4th lvl vs 4th lvl would be a better comparison. This way they both have more comparable HP, Defense, Offense, and Skills. Now for the Krasis comparison you left out that is has legendary action points equal to the number of PCs and it’s Apex action to summon brood bringing in Young Krasis into the fight. This completely changes the BBG fight from the way you presented. Much deadlier than a commoner. I can see how it seems like the Dungeon Coach doesn’t intend for anyone to go past lvl10, but I don’t think that’s the case. If he didn’t want players above level 10 he wouldn’t have included the prestige paths. The reasoning he gives in a couple videos talk about make classes be complete by level 10 because most Campaigns don’t last much higher than that. I cant even begin to tell you the number of character I made that never got to see the full power because the game stopped before the higher levels. As for the PDR, please see beta 0.8 Core Rules page 79 Armor Modifications (which the fight can take at character creation) The Dense Armor trait give +1 PDR.
Only listened through your analysis of the commoner question, and I don't really agree with your methodology here so stopped listening. You seem to be ignoring any sort of probability of a situation occurring and simply assuming that max damage is dealt by the commoner. You're also assuming that the commoner doesn't need to move in order to attack. Further you've given the commoner 4 actions when the normal amount for a weaker enemy is lower than that. Additionally you are incorrect in the way you have applied stacking disadvantage. On top of this the DC20 fighter seems to be the worst possible DC20 fighter build for this sort of test, versus an average 5E fighter. In DC20 active defences are a very important part of the system, with manoeuvres such as Side Step and Parry, as well as techniques like Heroic Parry being highly relevant when considering survivability. 5E fighters don't have access to anything comparable. The Armour you've chosen to use is Novice Armour and you seem to have chosen a character with no defensive traits whatsoever. Plate Armour is not the equivalent of Heavy Armour (Novice) in DC 20, its the equivalent of Heavy Armour (Expert), so you should be looking at a PD of 15 before any modifiers. If you then assume the fighter has access to Parry this should then increase the PD further against some (or all) of the attacks. Against a PD of 15 with PDR 1 your Commoner does 0, 2, or 4 damage as they can't reach Brutal, and they need to roll a 17+ on the dice (20+ total) to achieve heavy, 4 damage is only on a crit. Assuming they get to stand still and attack their third attack is at DisAdv2, giving a 0.8% chance to do anything (1/125 turns), and a 1/8000 chance to crit. If you add in a single Parry against attack 1 or 2 the chance of the commoner doing damage becomes 1/20 for that attack as they can only deal damage on a crit, and then only 3. If a player has been crit twice and another crit will kill them they will almost certainly Parry, meaning you need the Crit on the third attack as well. As such the chance of a commoner killing a DC20 fighter in Plate in one turn are incredibly low, essentially requiring 5 dice to all come up 20s (1/3.2 million). That's assuming the fighter doesn't have Heroic Parry, Slip Away, Sidestep, or anything that will push the maths further in their favour.
Love this response. The assumption here is if everyone hits and no one has situational advantage. Distance won’t matter unless you’re manipulating odds in favor of someone else. Distance will create a stalemate situation where you have to start asking well, Does he go after me or do I go after him? Who has cover who doesn’t have cover? Do I have a ranged attack? does he have arranged attack? In my better killer or squishy scenario, it is a situation where what if you bumped into an evil commoner and he or she was able to land every single blow on you on that first round, would you survive that? It’s too bad you didn’t watch the entire video where I proposed to make the commoner weaker and to also minionize other monsters so that you can have that epic heroic scene where the hero gets battling multiple monsters at the same time and is able to survive. I realize that this is high fantasy, pushing towards super heroic game but, that is the point of minions advocated by DMs such as Matt Colville. I love this idea of a thorough battle break down. I may take you up on that. I started to do it with the better killer video but the darn video was 30m long and I barely did one battle with myself. Any who. I’ll try to come back and after other points here. This is one of those let’s drink a brew and go over this on a chalk board situation. Love it
@@RPGBoonsDF3 Well, Seeing the math, I think is absolutely possible to run those kind of encounter with the official rules. I meen, the chance of some minions really killing any hero in a turn is ridiculously small. While any party member has a good chance of killing 2 or 3 minions (1 or 2 HP monsters) in a single turn with sweeping attacks, throwing one minion in another, using AOE spell etc. Specially when you take into account the control that the GM has of the initiative order.
@@hericn i’m glad you saw the utility in the table. I think I’m just trying to create those epic combat scenes and still have the opportunity to create stronger monsters or captains are brutes because you can still create those higher tier monsters on that table. Thank you for your feedback. Always appreciate great comments like yours.
@@Azazel226True. There has been some comments that are a little aggressive but it comes out of love. I try to filter out and look for that constructive criticism. And it is there. Thanks for leaving your point of view.
@Azazel226 I know, but a lot of Dc20 fans seem to think that saying "hey, this thing should be different" is attacking the underdog or something like that. People are very passionate about this project, for better and for worse
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
Love this video. Thanks for making a video on making/customizing monsters.
I’m glad you like it. I really do hope it’s useful.
Cool video. I will say that looking at "max damage" is kind of odd. It's a useful metric for accessing "one-shot" possibility, but you also need to adjust for likelihood.
Krasis, for instance, doesn't look that impressive when it attacks 3 times, but that's because you assumed a few weird things:
1) All 3 attacks have a significant crit chance (since you accounted for the +2 damage from crits on all 3 attacks); you "max damage" output is a 1/8,000 chance...not a meaingful piece of the probability pie.
Thank you for the clarifications. It’s Awesome DC team stopped by to check us little guys out. Woohoo.
I did not account for probability for sure. I tried to look at it individual attacks but yes 1/20 x 1/20 x 1/20 chance equates to 1/8000 chance. I would only say that it has to apply to the heroes as well, and it hurts my head to think about how long it may drag combat out 😊. For my “who’s a better killer video”, i purposely left out probability and looked for Max damage output. I think if If I used averages, we would be back in the same place with x2 the amount of time to finish the battle in some cases but the fighter should be able to knock out the commoner less amount of time or even the first round so I can see your point there. The dice giveth and the dice taketh away though, and the odds are in the fighters favor to win. It’s a what if the commoner got the drop on you? Would you survive? Kind of scenario.
I’ve also heard I should have added maneuvers but I wanted to have a simplified view. I’m not sure if it’s weird 😢😂❤.
I’ve been on the discord but I’ll try to stop by more often. I’m very thankful you stop by and shared your knowledge about DC 20 it really helps clarify a lot of things, thank you
"... and Boons' rules, still recovering from being laser flashed, spins quickly with hit a to DC20! Looks serious, Cotton."
Dodge, Duck, Dive, and . . . Dodge!
Lurker describes the tactics that the monster typically uses. I’d prefer the term predator or stalker.
I had a similar assumption. I was hoping there was a section on that monster packet that had things to consider or add these abilities to Lurkers. I did see DC just made a video about the stat blocks and he mentioned there will be something like that.
Lurker,brute etc is an easy way to know what the monsters strategy will generally be. Brute=front line. Lurker acts similarly to a rogue. That kind of thing.
@@brencelionheart6837 I see. I figured something similar. Do you know if he’s released better monster creation based on these descripters? I’ve not seen or gotten anything from Kickstarter
@@RPGBoonsDF3 it was in one of his most recent videos. I can't seem to do links for some reason. I'm really looking forward to the game. Although to a certain extent it does seem like every character is reasonably good at everything.
Good table. Can always be tweaked.
Absolutely
When calculating damage you are assuming 3 attacks, and you are referring to max dmg, can I ask why that is? I would always spend at least one attack with advantage - higher hit chance and damage potential. I can see the text in the Monster Starter pack as well with "A player usually makes two attacks" - which is not what I've seen in my experience. Thoughts? It's great to have the max damage for the risk calculation you talk about, but the average actions taken and the average damage would be interesting too
@@nikwintren the first video, edits a better killer, I was measuring maximum output of fighter class in 5e vs dc20. I kept it here. It’s really to see damage can you do on your turn if you reached first for both that video and this one. I realize the probability is low for that many crits but it was a max damage test. I was asking what would happen if a monster got the best case scenario for damage round one.
With averages, the difference are not as noticeable and dc20 fighter does better. With the current monster creation table, the commoner has a better chance of causing some serious damage. I wear aiming to weaken them.
Thank you for your comment and input
Boons, could you add a pdf download of your monster table?
I'll try. I actually don't know how but give me a few minutes here. If you reading this now below are the fastest ways to get a copy,
if on phone, keep phone horizontal, screenshot, and email yourself.
If PC, use the snipping tool. If you don't have it on your window start button, search for the app. I've never had a computer without it. Snipping tool allows you to screen shot anything and that can be pasted on email, word, or powerpoint.
Hey, I've added a link in the comments. I added some notes. Hope it helps.
Couple of things.
First, i think youre handling stacking disadvantage incorrectly. You are treating the second attack that uses the extra action point as a repeat penalty reset, and that is not the way it works. The 3rd attack made with the final action point will be at disadvantage 2 (roll 3 d20s take the lowest). This makes the 1 round commoner kill much less likely but still possible technically.
Second, if a commoner is able to just wale on you for a full round and somehow lands all crits it makes sense that you would die at low level. Even if youre a warrior wearing plate armor, if some crack head stabs you in the neck 3 times youre gonna die. The fact that in this comparison a low level fighter (level 4 instead of 2 like dc20 for some reason? Why not compare equal level?) when taking maximum damage from a commoner can tank 6 rounds of critical hits actually makes 0 sense. Like a sleeping fighter can get jumped by a commoner and say, “ugh, 18 more seconds im sleepy” as they get stabbed and not have to worry about dying haha what this comparison is showing me is how quickly dnd rockets you into super hero status. Im sure when all levels for dc20 are out you will also get there, but as far as the damage/hp comparison it seems dc20 wants to stay more real world grounded at low levels.
Third, i agree “minion” class creatures should have lower modifiers. Minion sounds to me like the MOST powerful minion should be a commoner and it should only go down from there.
It seems to me that you like the super hero side of being an adventurer. I think a lot of the types of critiques in this video will probably be alleviated when higher levels are released, but who knows for sure. Even if I dont think they are appropriate critiques for this low of a level personally, definitely good to put it out there that we eventually want to be able to sleep through a commoner attack without fear of dying when we are famous adventurers of the land! 😂
Pt.1 Nice. Thank you for the disadvantage correction. I've looked at the beta rules and could not find the correct answer. When I was working on the two weapon fighter, I just happen to see DC live #5 stream and he mentioned the adv given on that second attack makes it refresh to disadv 1 on the next but, I wasn't sure if that was true for all attacks. You can imagine going back wasting time to fix everything, yarg!
Pt2. About the commoner damage, I see what you mean about the circumstance. In the video, it's a min maxer type deal. A what if he go to go first and lands max. I make a deal about it here because in D&D that commoner would take 3 round to knock out a level 2 fighter or 6 rounds for that lvl4. I struggle with the plate being so weak against a dagger. I understand coach is staying low but, I really think those PDRs on armor should be higher (example in Asst. Coach Notes Vid).
Third point, we are now of one hive mind . . . :-)
Pt4. I'm a mixed bag about "reality" based damage. I started with 1e and that was Grit Incarnate. I do appreciate the extra stuff a player can do as the editions went up. I look at DC20 and I see a mix of old school and new school. I agree with you it's all preference and open to it all really. You can't argue wit me though (or can you) that watching Legolas or Gimli shred orcs in matter of seconds with one blow is not the Fiyah!
Thanks for the fantastic response.
@@RPGBoonsDF3
For #2, idk if you were aware of this, but in the olden days dagger were actually extremely effective against plate armor enemies because it was nimble and could be used to go between armor and into the gaps. It was a common strategy for armored opponents to try and throw the other to the ground and then jump on top of them and pull out a dagger to start trying to push into the eye slit or neck gap or whatever gap they could find in plate armor. So, when we're talking about a critical hit, it's not a matter of a dagger piercing through a sheet of metal but rather a dagger avoiding the armor entirely. So, based on the mechanics saying a critical hit always hits no matter the AC, this makes perfect sense. So don't think of it as dagger through a plate of metal but rather dagger around a plate of metal.
For #4 this is personal opinion of course, but I think keeping low levels grounded then growing into a super hero is a better path than very quickly becoming super human. I guess it depends on how far along a persons journey of growing in power has to progress before they're an "adventurer". I see a lvl 1 adventurer as basically a specialized commoner, but you could just as easily start "adventurer" status after you're already well above the strength of a commoner.
Also, nobody on this planet can argue that Legolas and Gimli tearing through hordes of orcs and goblins is not epic as hell, but I would say you'd have an equally difficult time arguing that they are adventurers between levels 1-4 haha. In my mind they have to be a minimum of lvl 10 if not lvl 20 outright 🤣
@@RangerIV these are great points. I really don’t disagree with your points. They’re good.
I totally can see an agile character bobbing and weaving, looking for gap areas in the armor.
LOTR!!!!!
I have soooo many questions.
Why do you consider 3rd Attack to have just 1 DisADV? Normally 1st attack will have none, 2nd will have 1 DisADV, 3rd will have 2 DisADV, and 4th will have 3 DisADV.
Here you sacrifice your 4th AP for an ADV for 2nd attack, so 2nd attack will have no DisADV. But your 3rd attack will still have 2 DisADV.
Also, why do you consider every hit be a critical? That's not even representative, it's just a least possible scenario, so you just cannot rely on 1/160000 possibility for the combat output. That wrecks all your statistics and makes your conclusion unsubstantial! How could you even come out with this idea???
You're right about the advantage stack. I think I misunderstood when DC mentioned in one of his videos that a two weapon fighter resets the first disadvantage. It's not listed any where in the books though however, you're the 2nd or 3rd person to bring that up so, I'm think ya'll are right.
I don't disagree with the 1/20 x 1/20 x (1/20 x 1/20 x 1d20) chance to land 3 crits ( I think that's like 1 in 3 million). In the who's a better killer video, right before this one, I gave the fighter the same odds. 1 regular roll, 2 points to one more with no disadvantage, and a 3 third roll some of you say will be a 3d20 roll. It was the easiest way to max damage an attack. I think I could do a crit and a 2 tier breaks and and a 1 tier. That would need to be applied to the attacking monsters as well to make it equal. I think it'll take much longer to reach the end but, the deficiency would still stand.
Thank you for leaving your break down. It helps me think about my break downs, and I love it!
@@RPGBoonsDF3 if you want to make a true statistics, you should use the average damage. Here it's easily calculated. Just tale the average rollresult (10,5+4), compare It to an average PD (10) and you would get the average damage of 1. If you have any ADV, It probably would deal a Heavy Hit, resulting in +1 damage. Also you may make a Skill Checks and use conditions to maximize the damage output. It may be not so relevant in terms of studying the damage statistics, but it's definitely relevant while in group combat.
I think I will disagree with you reducing minions' defense stats. Now don't get me wrong, minions should absolutely be the easiest monsters to kill; but them being 1 to 2 hp already accomplishes that. Almost all weapons deal a minimum of 1 damage, and it's very easy to get more from manoeuvres, weapon styles, or just rolling high enough. A level 1 fighter will have a +4 attack bonus, so a minion with PD 6 (maximum according to your table) will literally die on anything except nat 1. Even with DisADV3, that's an 81.45% chance of instant kill.
That to me doesn't sound fun. Small groups of minions are no threat at all, and large groups bottleneck the encounter into only two possible playstyles - AOE, or 'I smack them with my weapon four times'
I see your point. The one thing I was betting on was the use of many minions. I stated 20 in the vid but that’s just made up. You can imagine though, one level 2 fighter, have a squad coming at them, staggered so they all don’t reach at the same time, I think you could have some hero epic take downs.
Thank you for your comments. Feedback Really helps with my planning on next videos for organizing and trying to be better at providing good info. .
Ok so similar to you last fighter video you are showing extreme bias toward 5e. youre using lvl 4 for 5e, but lvl 2 for DC20. Big difference in health and other stats.
Then you are leaving out things for the DC20 fighter that completely change the outcome. Like a shiled would add 2 pd making brutals impossible from the commoner, and after a hit following attack had additional disadvantage.
Also you say you gave the best armor, but that would mean the PDR would be 2 not 1, and if the fighter uses Raise shield manuever it reduces damage by 2. Meaning the commoners att does 0 dmg.
Oh you also forgot Second wind that imediantly heals 2 hp and gives you 2 SPwhen you drop to half health.
So many things you leave out of course the 2nd lvl DC20 fighter looks worse,compared to the 4th lvl 5e fighter.
Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it. I used a lvl4 5e fighter because the lvl2 DC20 fighter has received an ability score improvement already and comes with combat maneuvers. 5e lvl2 fighter does not. I suspect the DC20 PCs are front loaded with score improvement and traits because DC had not originally intended the characters to go beyond level 10. He alludes to this in many videos.
As for the PDR of 1, it is based on the .8 beta core rules packet that was released to backers back in June? I don't remember. Please see beta 0.8 Core Rules page 78 Armor Table on right column showing +1 PDR and +1 PD.
@@RPGBoonsDF3 I understand you were trying to make it seem fair or equal between the two, but you really are not.
Your Commoner with 4HP, & 8PD/8MD, would likely have 2 AP not 4 as per the stat range table. This would make the attacks equal as 5e fighter gets 2, commoner get 1. DC20 fighter get 4, commoner gets 2. The fewer attacks in combination with the defensive maneuvers in my previous comment means the DC20 fighter would last much longer against the commoner.
Here is a number comparison with lvl 2 fighter HP corrected, I think you forgot fighter get +1HP/lvl.
~ DC20 lvl 2 Fighter 13 HP (wrong in video), Att=+4(3/stat+1/CM)
~ D&D 5e lvl 4 Fighter 48 HP, Att = +6 (4/Stat+2/Prof)
~ DC20 lvl 4 Fighter 17 HP, Att=+5(3/stat+2/CM)
As you can see the ASIs the DC20 fighter get still don’t bring it on par due to the cap of 3 at low levels, even without the subclasses 4th lvl vs 4th lvl would be a better comparison. This way they both have more comparable HP, Defense, Offense, and Skills.
Now for the Krasis comparison you left out that is has legendary action points equal to the number of PCs and it’s Apex action to summon brood bringing in Young Krasis into the fight. This completely changes the BBG fight from the way you presented. Much deadlier than a commoner.
I can see how it seems like the Dungeon Coach doesn’t intend for anyone to go past lvl10, but I don’t think that’s the case. If he didn’t want players above level 10 he wouldn’t have included the prestige paths. The reasoning he gives in a couple videos talk about make classes be complete by level 10 because most Campaigns don’t last much higher than that. I cant even begin to tell you the number of character I made that never got to see the full power because the game stopped before the higher levels.
As for the PDR, please see beta 0.8 Core Rules page 79 Armor Modifications (which the fight can take at character creation) The Dense Armor trait give +1 PDR.
Only listened through your analysis of the commoner question, and I don't really agree with your methodology here so stopped listening. You seem to be ignoring any sort of probability of a situation occurring and simply assuming that max damage is dealt by the commoner. You're also assuming that the commoner doesn't need to move in order to attack. Further you've given the commoner 4 actions when the normal amount for a weaker enemy is lower than that. Additionally you are incorrect in the way you have applied stacking disadvantage.
On top of this the DC20 fighter seems to be the worst possible DC20 fighter build for this sort of test, versus an average 5E fighter. In DC20 active defences are a very important part of the system, with manoeuvres such as Side Step and Parry, as well as techniques like Heroic Parry being highly relevant when considering survivability. 5E fighters don't have access to anything comparable. The Armour you've chosen to use is Novice Armour and you seem to have chosen a character with no defensive traits whatsoever. Plate Armour is not the equivalent of Heavy Armour (Novice) in DC 20, its the equivalent of Heavy Armour (Expert), so you should be looking at a PD of 15 before any modifiers. If you then assume the fighter has access to Parry this should then increase the PD further against some (or all) of the attacks.
Against a PD of 15 with PDR 1 your Commoner does 0, 2, or 4 damage as they can't reach Brutal, and they need to roll a 17+ on the dice (20+ total) to achieve heavy, 4 damage is only on a crit. Assuming they get to stand still and attack their third attack is at DisAdv2, giving a 0.8% chance to do anything (1/125 turns), and a 1/8000 chance to crit. If you add in a single Parry against attack 1 or 2 the chance of the commoner doing damage becomes 1/20 for that attack as they can only deal damage on a crit, and then only 3. If a player has been crit twice and another crit will kill them they will almost certainly Parry, meaning you need the Crit on the third attack as well. As such the chance of a commoner killing a DC20 fighter in Plate in one turn are incredibly low, essentially requiring 5 dice to all come up 20s (1/3.2 million). That's assuming the fighter doesn't have Heroic Parry, Slip Away, Sidestep, or anything that will push the maths further in their favour.
Love this response. The assumption here is if everyone hits and no one has situational advantage.
Distance won’t matter unless you’re manipulating odds in favor of someone else. Distance will create a stalemate situation where you have to start asking well, Does he go after me or do I go after him? Who has cover who doesn’t have cover? Do I have a ranged attack? does he have arranged attack? In my better killer or squishy scenario, it is a situation where what if you bumped into an evil commoner and he or she was able to land every single blow on you on that first round, would you survive that?
It’s too bad you didn’t watch the entire video where I proposed to make the commoner weaker and to also minionize other monsters so that you can have that epic heroic scene where the hero gets battling multiple monsters at the same time and is able to survive. I realize that this is high fantasy, pushing towards super heroic game but, that is the point of minions advocated by DMs such as Matt Colville.
I love this idea of a thorough battle break down. I may take you up on that. I started to do it with the better killer video but the darn video was 30m long and I barely did one battle with myself.
Any who. I’ll try to come back and after other points here. This is one of those let’s drink a brew and go over this on a chalk board situation. Love it
@@RPGBoonsDF3 Well, Seeing the math, I think is absolutely possible to run those kind of encounter with the official rules. I meen, the chance of some minions really killing any hero in a turn is ridiculously small. While any party member has a good chance of killing 2 or 3 minions (1 or 2 HP monsters) in a single turn with sweeping attacks, throwing one minion in another, using AOE spell etc. Specially when you take into account the control that the GM has of the initiative order.
@@hericn i’m glad you saw the utility in the table. I think I’m just trying to create those epic combat scenes and still have the opportunity to create stronger monsters or captains are brutes because you can still create those higher tier monsters on that table. Thank you for your feedback. Always appreciate great comments like yours.
The DC20 simps are gonna rip you a new one for daring to "fix" anything on their perfect game
Haha. I got chain mail on. Hopefully, it protects. It’s been pretty friendly so far. 🤞🏽
Game is in beta. Now is the time for feedback like this.
@@Azazel226True. There has been some comments that are a little aggressive but it comes out of love. I try to filter out and look for that constructive criticism. And it is there.
Thanks for leaving your point of view.
@Azazel226 I know, but a lot of Dc20 fans seem to think that saying "hey, this thing should be different" is attacking the underdog or something like that. People are very passionate about this project, for better and for worse
@@moonlight2870can’t really disagree with you there 🤘🏽