Good information. I am guessing the balance of harder and softer carbides is how the manufacturer controls chipping and breaking. All hard vanadium will yield great edge retention but the trade off is chipping. Some steels are designed for harder use (greater toughness for abuse) and others for long extended periods of use (greater hardness for edge retention). The right steel, geometry, thickness, and heat treat when paired with a good design truly is an engineering masterpiece
Generally 3V isn’t run hard enough or have enough carbide to make it into my enjoyable steel category although it’s super easy to move on the stones and takes a fine edge. Elmax doesn’t seem like anything special to me. Rather go S45VN or Magancut
@@EngineersPerspective701 - Roger that. I think Spyderco does 3V about as well as anyone has. In the Schemp TUFF, anyway. Mine performs well. And my 9500 series ZT 0561 in Elmax performs very well once I took about 1 mm of burned steel off the edge.
@@EngineersPerspective701 - why not do a video series on the processes of making various steels? CPM, CTS etc etc vs conventional ingot steels. There's much about the powder metal processes I'm still confused about. I'm sure others are as well.
@@holdernewtshesrearin5471 Larrin Thomas has some incredible articles on his Website “Knife Steel Nerds” Here is the magnacut article but there’s definitely one on different steel manufacturing. knifesteelnerds.com/2021/03/25/cpm-magnacut/
Just a note on the S35 numbers, Larrin's testing suggests that its toughness maxes out around 9-10ft-lbs at 61hrc, so significantly but not hugely better than the 63hrc figure (which you point out is atypical) suggests. These Talking Steel videos are great, hope you keep them going.
Very good note! I had forgotten all about it so I had to look it up again. Love how companies put out crap soft s35vn hiding behind toughness or some other bs. Just makes it clear that they never did the testing to maximize the toughness.
Thanks for these videos on various steels. They’re excellent, and I appreciate em. I bought my first modern Spyderco a couple months ago, (got a couple more since then), and it happened to be a BHQ exclusive Shaman; with a satin M4 blade and green canvas micarta scales. I didn’t know a whole lot about M4 before buying the knife, except that it holds an edge very well and isn’t stainless. The more I’ve learned about it; the more pleased I am with it. I don’t want the absolute hardest steel on the planet, as I’ll need to be able to sharpen it myself… but I want something well above average when it comes to cutting performance and durability. M4 seems to fit that bill. From what I’ve seen, Spyderco seems to do a great job on the heat treat for their M4; getting it to 63-64 HRC, (and I think I saw a couple blades that were at 64.6). Also iirc, M4 has been around since the ~1960’s, (unlike many of the steels which outperform it), and the fact that it remains a very relevant steel today is quite impressive.
Glad you liked it and are getting into pocket knives! You definitely started with a great one. M4 is a great steel for a blade and honestly absolutely one of my favorites! Keep in mind that the particle metallurgy process is a really big part of what has allowed M4 to stay so relevant. A combination of old and new!
@@EngineersPerspective701 Yep, particle metallurgy has definitely enhanced M4’s performance. Of course, comparable steels use PM technology and techniques as well, to achieve their performance. 😉
Super helpful video. I'm really not a collector, but I just happen to own two Spyderco's in M4. I have the SMKW PM2 "arctic" exclusive in M4 (underwhelmed by the scales, which I got it for, so not sure I will hold on to it). I also have the lil' Native M4 exclusive, which I put titanium scales on... I totally love that thing. I'm sometimes in a city with a 2.5" knife ordinance, so the lil' Native seemed like the most knife I could get within that law. For such a stout little blade, M4 just seemed to make a lot of sense (especially for the same price as s30v). But it's true that it's not a great slicer, so I've been looking at knives to pair it with (other than just a SAK)... After our conversation about k390 I'm looking at getting a Dragonfly in that steel (probably the wharncliff version that should be coming out). That should be a great precision cutter and respectable cardboard cutter. One thing the lil' Native helped me to appreciate is how good a small knife can be at precision cutting, but the dragonfly is going to be better at that in every way (probably true of the chaparral as well, but no k390 options there).
Not a collector either! Most of my knives look like hell from use or experimentation of some kind! It may be worth keeping the PM2 just for M4 but I'm sure you can make some money on the one you have while still picking up another M4 blade for less. I really started having the same appreciation for smaller blades once I got into the Para 3s and native 5s. I fully prefer that size and it becomes more apparent as working knives. The precision and ease of use totally trumps the extra blades length most people put as a qualifier for a "work knife". A K390 dragon fly would be absolutely awesome. Probably the most cutting in that size package that has ever been produced by man! It won't feel as stout or refined as the lil' native but it's a sweet little blade.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I assumed I would sell the M4 PM2, but they must be making more of these exclusives, because the Ebay selling prices have been close to what I paid. I still may sell it... I think I'd be happier having my money in a Brouwer (and they're already disappearing). I like the idea of putting a liner-delete copper scale on a Brouwer, without it getting crazy heavy like most copper knives. The Brouwer would probably be an ok recycling knife as well... less length, but pretty thin behind the edge. It's hard to justify keeping the PM2 just so I can cut cardboard slightly faster, lol. It looks like you've got bigger hands, so I can see why you'd prefer the full-sized Native 5. The attraction of the Dragonfly is also that it will basically disappear in the bottom of the pocket (just like my Victorinox Compact, which I mostly just carry for scissors), so I can always carry it as a secondary.
Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year! I do love M4. While on this subject (Charts and Tool Steel). I just happened to make up a chart for myself today, that I think you'll like. I have to run out here now, for about an hour. As soon as I get back. I'll send you an email, containing it.
I put these pages together. I can't speak for collectors but really it's a good steel for anyone who isn't concerned about corrosion. Can take relatively low angles, holds front end sharpness and has enough carbides volume to break down into a very solid working edge. All good stuff
Pretty low, in the realm of Cruwear or Hap40. Possibly slightly worse but it depends on the heat treatments. Notably better than a 1095, 52100 type of basic carbon steel
Well I was gonna get a magnacut Hogue deka but SMKW oversold and I drew the short stick. So after getting my order canceled and refunded, I noticed they dropped more M4 Jungle wear fat carbon spydie PM2s. Maybe 100 bucks more but M4 was also on my list of steels I wanted to try and I also wanted a PM model of some kind to. I'll consider it a win, I wanted a Ritter Hogue anyways, the deka was just available for cheap by circumstance.
The Ritter Hogues are extremely special knives. I currently own 4 and just ordered a jade automatic Ritter Hogue. By far my favorite knives in my massive collection.
Substantial differences. Two cases to look at because I also have 10V that is a lower hardness than the K390 I have and they perform extremely similar. Note that I do really like M4 and find it to be a steel that I can comfortably use without feeling like I'm giving up anything. If I had to grade their performance it would go like this. M4 (62-64HRc) = B 10V (63-64HRc) = B+ K390 (>65HRc) = A+ 1) 10V at same hardness as M4 (63-64HRc): In short, 10V/K390 at the same hardness feels exactly like M4 but on steroids and takes longer to apex with the same abrasive. Every property is either equal or better essentially. They both hold the same up front sharpness but 10V comes up WAY stickier in sharpening. Even if over polished it quickly develops into a sticky edge after a bit of use as those VCs are exposed. M4 holds onto whatever the original edge you put onto it until it dulls enough to form a working edge. The quality of the 10V working edge is superior and is able to cut things that M4 will struggle with for longer. 2) K390 as higher hardness (>=65HRc): Not even a close comparison. It's a totally different class of performance. Much higher edge stability. Longer up front sharpness, same working edge as 10V.
@@EngineersPerspective701 No wonder they put in the production model for the Seki model line-up. I wonder why more manufacturers haven’t picked it up versus M4.
@@nandayane the seki K390 is amazing! And they’re geometry tends to be better than 80-90% of what’s out there too, delica came at 0.015” BTE at 17dps plus the super thin spine and distal taper
@@EngineersPerspective701 Gotta give Sal respect for putting it in the seki line of knives. Spyderco really is run by a steel nerd! I guess that is one way to justify the “spyder tax” put the best steel you can find in your main line-up.
@@doejon9424 definitely still forming my thoughts on 4V still but it’s a lot like a M4 honestly. Probably will have more edge stability but I haven’t pushed it too hard yet other than hitting a staple when cutting out our old carpet. No damage but blunted.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I've experienced micro chipping with 3V before. Not so much on M4. I still remember my first experience with M4 on a Spyderco "Air" and it was excellent. I immediately wanted the steel in a bigger knife. M4 used to pretty rare on folders
My first M4 was the PM2 and it was a next level of performance. Great up front sharpness like I'd never experienced at that time and solid working edge that cut forever. Sharpened better than most of the steels I had too! We definitely live in an age of luxury where M4 is readily available along with K390 and Maxamet.
Silicon is not impurity brother.. Sulfur and Phosphorus are.. M4 was one of my favourite steels untill ive got 4v and k390🙏 I had untill recently had Shaman in M4.. I loved the edge on M4 but i never really push it to its limits.. Yet another one that had "very hard to sharpen" reputation, totally false.. Easy with proper abrasives (100% diamond or cbn).. Thx
“Mostly and impurity” maybe better said as a functional impurity? It has specific functions in the production process dealing with oxygen I think but it being leftover at the end isn’t necessarily positive I’d say. Possibly helps a little with machinability. Diamonds/cbn definitely make M4 a sweetie. Very good overall steel. Like you though I’ve also “graduated” to a little higher tier of steel for my personal preferences
Love these. Someone who talks about carbide volumes and carbide types. These little details are what make these steels shine.
Appreciate it!
Good information. I am guessing the balance of harder and softer carbides is how the manufacturer controls chipping and breaking. All hard vanadium will yield great edge retention but the trade off is chipping. Some steels are designed for harder use (greater toughness for abuse) and others for long extended periods of use (greater hardness for edge retention). The right steel, geometry, thickness, and heat treat when paired with a good design truly is an engineering masterpiece
M4 is currently my favorite steel. You do a great job on these videos. Hope you have a great new year!
Appreciate it! Enjoy the New Year!
Awesome explanations, I really respect u making these videos and explaining this content to us. Thanks brother.
Appreciate the comment!
Interesting. Love M4. It's my favorite EDC/hard use knife steel.
Would love to hear your take on CPM-3V and Elmax as well.
Generally 3V isn’t run hard enough or have enough carbide to make it into my enjoyable steel category although it’s super easy to move on the stones and takes a fine edge.
Elmax doesn’t seem like anything special to me. Rather go S45VN or Magancut
@@EngineersPerspective701 - Roger that. I think Spyderco does 3V about as well as anyone has. In the Schemp TUFF, anyway. Mine performs well.
And my 9500 series ZT 0561 in Elmax performs very well once I took about 1 mm of burned steel off the edge.
@@EngineersPerspective701 - why not do a video series on the processes of making various steels?
CPM, CTS etc etc vs conventional ingot steels. There's much about the powder metal processes I'm still confused about. I'm sure others are as well.
@@holdernewtshesrearin5471 Larrin Thomas has some incredible articles on his Website “Knife Steel Nerds”
Here is the magnacut article but there’s definitely one on different steel manufacturing. knifesteelnerds.com/2021/03/25/cpm-magnacut/
@@EngineersPerspective701 - thanks brother.
Just a note on the S35 numbers, Larrin's testing suggests that its toughness maxes out around 9-10ft-lbs at 61hrc, so significantly but not hugely better than the 63hrc figure (which you point out is atypical) suggests. These Talking Steel videos are great, hope you keep them going.
Very good note! I had forgotten all about it so I had to look it up again.
Love how companies put out crap soft s35vn hiding behind toughness or some other bs. Just makes it clear that they never did the testing to maximize the toughness.
Thanks for these videos on various steels. They’re excellent, and I appreciate em. I bought my first modern Spyderco a couple months ago, (got a couple more since then), and it happened to be a BHQ exclusive Shaman; with a satin M4 blade and green canvas micarta scales. I didn’t know a whole lot about M4 before buying the knife, except that it holds an edge very well and isn’t stainless. The more I’ve learned about it; the more pleased I am with it.
I don’t want the absolute hardest steel on the planet, as I’ll need to be able to sharpen it myself… but I want something well above average when it comes to cutting performance and durability. M4 seems to fit that bill. From what I’ve seen, Spyderco seems to do a great job on the heat treat for their M4; getting it to 63-64 HRC, (and I think I saw a couple blades that were at 64.6). Also iirc, M4 has been around since the ~1960’s, (unlike many of the steels which outperform it), and the fact that it remains a very relevant steel today is quite impressive.
Glad you liked it and are getting into pocket knives! You definitely started with a great one. M4 is a great steel for a blade and honestly absolutely one of my favorites! Keep in mind that the particle metallurgy process is a really big part of what has allowed M4 to stay so relevant. A combination of old and new!
@@EngineersPerspective701 Yep, particle metallurgy has definitely enhanced M4’s performance. Of course, comparable steels use PM technology and techniques as well, to achieve their performance. 😉
As always great video
Thanks man! Accidentally let it go live 😂Rerelease on Fri
Email is now sent, @@EngineersPerspective701.
@@SteveKluver appreciate it, I’ll take a look!
I just turned it into a Google Doc, and sent you a link, @@EngineersPerspective701. So the formatting on your device, will be less of an issue : - )
Thanks, it was very helpful!
Appreciate the comment!
Super helpful video. I'm really not a collector, but I just happen to own two Spyderco's in M4. I have the SMKW PM2 "arctic" exclusive in M4 (underwhelmed by the scales, which I got it for, so not sure I will hold on to it). I also have the lil' Native M4 exclusive, which I put titanium scales on... I totally love that thing. I'm sometimes in a city with a 2.5" knife ordinance, so the lil' Native seemed like the most knife I could get within that law. For such a stout little blade, M4 just seemed to make a lot of sense (especially for the same price as s30v). But it's true that it's not a great slicer, so I've been looking at knives to pair it with (other than just a SAK)... After our conversation about k390 I'm looking at getting a Dragonfly in that steel (probably the wharncliff version that should be coming out). That should be a great precision cutter and respectable cardboard cutter. One thing the lil' Native helped me to appreciate is how good a small knife can be at precision cutting, but the dragonfly is going to be better at that in every way (probably true of the chaparral as well, but no k390 options there).
Not a collector either! Most of my knives look like hell from use or experimentation of some kind! It may be worth keeping the PM2 just for M4 but I'm sure you can make some money on the one you have while still picking up another M4 blade for less.
I really started having the same appreciation for smaller blades once I got into the Para 3s and native 5s. I fully prefer that size and it becomes more apparent as working knives. The precision and ease of use totally trumps the extra blades length most people put as a qualifier for a "work knife". A K390 dragon fly would be absolutely awesome. Probably the most cutting in that size package that has ever been produced by man! It won't feel as stout or refined as the lil' native but it's a sweet little blade.
@@EngineersPerspective701
I assumed I would sell the M4 PM2, but they must be making more of these exclusives, because the Ebay selling prices have been close to what I paid. I still may sell it... I think I'd be happier having my money in a Brouwer (and they're already disappearing). I like the idea of putting a liner-delete copper scale on a Brouwer, without it getting crazy heavy like most copper knives. The Brouwer would probably be an ok recycling knife as well... less length, but pretty thin behind the edge. It's hard to justify keeping the PM2 just so I can cut cardboard slightly faster, lol.
It looks like you've got bigger hands, so I can see why you'd prefer the full-sized Native 5. The attraction of the Dragonfly is also that it will basically disappear in the bottom of the pocket (just like my Victorinox Compact, which I mostly just carry for scissors), so I can always carry it as a secondary.
Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year!
I do love M4.
While on this subject (Charts and Tool Steel). I just happened to make up a chart for myself today, that I think you'll like.
I have to run out here now, for about an hour. As soon as I get back. I'll send you an email, containing it.
Emailed you back, thank you!
Thanks
You’re welcome!
That page from Larrin Thomas ' book makes me wonder if you would recommend it for a knife collector /nerd?
I put these pages together. I can't speak for collectors but really it's a good steel for anyone who isn't concerned about corrosion. Can take relatively low angles, holds front end sharpness and has enough carbides volume to break down into a very solid working edge. All good stuff
You briefly talked about it’s stainless quality’s , in terms of its stainlessnes what does it compare too
Pretty low, in the realm of Cruwear or Hap40. Possibly slightly worse but it depends on the heat treatments. Notably better than a 1095, 52100 type of basic carbon steel
Well I was gonna get a magnacut Hogue deka but SMKW oversold and I drew the short stick. So after getting my order canceled and refunded, I noticed they dropped more M4 Jungle wear fat carbon spydie PM2s. Maybe 100 bucks more but M4 was also on my list of steels I wanted to try and I also wanted a PM model of some kind to. I'll consider it a win, I wanted a Ritter Hogue anyways, the deka was just available for cheap by circumstance.
The Ritter Hogues are extremely special knives. I currently own 4 and just ordered a jade automatic Ritter Hogue. By far my favorite knives in my massive collection.
What differences do you notice between CPM-M4 and K390 in terms of performance if any?
Substantial differences. Two cases to look at because I also have 10V that is a lower hardness than the K390 I have and they perform extremely similar. Note that I do really like M4 and find it to be a steel that I can comfortably use without feeling like I'm giving up anything.
If I had to grade their performance it would go like this.
M4 (62-64HRc) = B
10V (63-64HRc) = B+
K390 (>65HRc) = A+
1) 10V at same hardness as M4 (63-64HRc): In short, 10V/K390 at the same hardness feels exactly like M4 but on steroids and takes longer to apex with the same abrasive. Every property is either equal or better essentially.
They both hold the same up front sharpness but 10V comes up WAY stickier in sharpening. Even if over polished it quickly develops into a sticky edge after a bit of use as those VCs are exposed. M4 holds onto whatever the original edge you put onto it until it dulls enough to form a working edge. The quality of the 10V working edge is superior and is able to cut things that M4 will struggle with for longer.
2) K390 as higher hardness (>=65HRc): Not even a close comparison. It's a totally different class of performance. Much higher edge stability. Longer up front sharpness, same working edge as 10V.
@@EngineersPerspective701 No wonder they put in the production model for the Seki model line-up. I wonder why more manufacturers haven’t picked it up versus M4.
@@nandayane the seki K390 is amazing! And they’re geometry tends to be better than 80-90% of what’s out there too, delica came at 0.015” BTE at 17dps plus the super thin spine and distal taper
@@nandayane my guess is M4 is more known and easier to machine
@@EngineersPerspective701 Gotta give Sal respect for putting it in the seki line of knives. Spyderco really is run by a steel nerd! I guess that is one way to justify the “spyder tax” put the best steel you can find in your main line-up.
M4 is great steel but I've been on a K390 kick so some time now.
How can you not go on a K390 kick? It's freakin awesome! I've been using Maxamet and 4V mostly right now but K390 is soo good.
@@EngineersPerspective701 Yeah bro ! I hear that with Maxamet! I've only tried 3V so far. No 4V for me. How do you like 4V ?
@@doejon9424 definitely still forming my thoughts on 4V still but it’s a lot like a M4 honestly. Probably will have more edge stability but I haven’t pushed it too hard yet other than hitting a staple when cutting out our old carpet. No damage but blunted.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I've experienced micro chipping with 3V before. Not so much on M4. I still remember my first experience with M4 on a Spyderco "Air" and it was excellent. I immediately wanted the steel in a bigger knife. M4 used to pretty rare on folders
My first M4 was the PM2 and it was a next level of performance. Great up front sharpness like I'd never experienced at that time and solid working edge that cut forever. Sharpened better than most of the steels I had too!
We definitely live in an age of luxury where M4 is readily available along with K390 and Maxamet.
Silicon is not impurity brother.. Sulfur and Phosphorus are.. M4 was one of my favourite steels untill ive got 4v and k390🙏 I had untill recently had Shaman in M4.. I loved the edge on M4 but i never really push it to its limits.. Yet another one that had "very hard to sharpen" reputation, totally false.. Easy with proper abrasives (100% diamond or cbn).. Thx
“Mostly and impurity” maybe better said as a functional impurity? It has specific functions in the production process dealing with oxygen I think but it being leftover at the end isn’t necessarily positive I’d say. Possibly helps a little with machinability.
Diamonds/cbn definitely make M4 a sweetie. Very good overall steel. Like you though I’ve also “graduated” to a little higher tier of steel for my personal preferences