Depends what you are looking for. We have solar and a battery and absolutely love it. We don't expect it to pay us back. It is another appliance. The TV has no payback period, nor does the fridge, cooker etc. The bonus for us is that our 'earnings' through not paying so much for our electric bill plus the export value is like receiving tax free interest. The money we spent on the system was sitting in a saving account, doing very little and at the point of being taxed. Now it is sitting on the roof, making us less reliant on the grid and earning a bit as well.
Here in Malta we have 300 days of sunshine a year. Lots of people have solar panels but really all of our roofs should have them. They are a no brainer.
I did my masters in renewable energy technology and work in the industry as a project manager. As much as I love the tech, small-scale solar installations on UK homes just don't seem to justify their cost, not unless you are lucky to receive some kind of grant to partly fund the install. With such significant upfront capital expenditure (and therefore opportunity loss with what could've been done with that cash) and a 10+ year payback period, it's just not what any sane business or inventor would call an investable project with attractive ROI. But, I do see why people get them installed anyway - to have zero energy bills and potentially be a net-exporter of energy is hugely empowering and certainly has a "feel good factor".
Yes ,if you run a business that needs %100 uptime, we have solar gen, inverters and reasonably large LiPO4 banks. Were a small datacenter and data recovery outfit, downtime costs us money.
Absolutely agree that its best to fit as many panels as you can! You may be limited eg by the DNO to have a certain size inverter but this does NOT affect how many panels you can have, this is purely limited by available space. And cost of course..
Yep. Went through this earlier in the year - managed to get 18 420w panels on an east-west 3 bed semi along with some batteries. Not paid for any electricity since. Well, we have at night but selling during the day offsets that! Looks likely that we will manage a total profit of over £600 a year - along with 'free' electricity.
@FFVoyager How much were the panels and installation cost? Looking to buy first house and wondering if best to save £10k for Solar Panels rather than the extra £10k towards deposit? Thanks in advance for any help.
You should take into account the cost of the capital outlay when considering whether a PV install will deliver value for money. Based on an assumed £7000 balance that a typical install might cost an average savings account (2.5%) would pay £175 annually, this increases the payback time. Obviously the higher the expected return on capital, a business would generally assume between 7-11%, the greater the impact on payback. One important issue to raise is that very careful consideration should be made if you are thinking of borrowing to fund the install, the finance costs would be a significant drag on any savings made on consumption cost.
Always think the best think for solar, is to attach a battery storage system, that means you can run more of your home off free electricity. You are not getting the feed-in tariffs that there once were available, so use the system in a different way to your advantage.
That depends on whether or not you can use "excess" production in real time. We have two EVs, fully electric heating linked to a large thermal store, and a small swimming pool, so it's nearly always possible to put excess production somewhere.
@@garysmith5025Most people do not have two EVs and a swimming pool 🙄 I also guess you don't use your electric heating in the summer " infrared by any chance" and in the winter the sola is not producing enough to power your heating unless you get battery storage. Just solar is great in sunny countries but in the UK is not the best route to go down.
@@davedevonlad7402 Plenty of people have two EVs, in fact every household I know that has an EV has two of them, and solar panels. I happen to have an out of ground 10m lap pool (cost £5500) because it means my disabled wife can swim every day and avoid the 70 miles round trip to the public pool, however, many people have hot tubs. No, I don't have any infrared heating, why make that assumption? Underfloor wet heating and two hydronic fan coils for fast response, all fed from a large thermal store heated by an ASHP and immersion heaters. Useful energy capacity is around 160kWhr for a cost of £1900, can you get battery storage for £12/kWhr? I'm in Northern Scotland so the heating is used for 9 months of the year at least. My solar will very rarely produce enough in mid-winter to provide all our heating, so how would a battery help?
Fantastic vid....honest and straight. I started off, just powering my large shed..... It's now turned into a massive DIY self build and powering the house as well. Definitely agree on the this much for X panels go all out and fill it to the max... As for storage....again I started with 2x 150ah AGM.......at 12v Now I'm upgrading to 24v with about 25kw of lifepo4 DIY packs. It's not cheap, but my energy bills are a 1/5 of folks near by. Hopefully after up grade...I'll get cut off and say goodbye to the greedy energy companys.
In calculating payback time remember that you could have invested the £5k-£10k and got back a probable double inflation rate. Also, you may read that these add at least 4% to the value of your house - realistically it only adds up to £2-3k when fairly newly installed because logically a £200k house won't have it's value increased by £8k as that's the cost of new install. I am a fan of solar panels but perhaps most people should consider it as a lifestyle/environmental choice rather than purely financial.
Yes; best to ignore inflation on these predictions - while prices will go up and so it may look like you're saving more in absolute terms, so would the same money saved in your pension instead have gone up (for example).
Totally agree unless you have the data to do a full blown NPV (net present value) calculation to offset the lost interest on the capital invested Vs the electricity price escalation it is probably just as accurate to do a similar payback calculation. With the payback being 10 years or more then there is always the cost associated with maintenance and repairs to think factor in as well especially if there are batteries in the system. In the states feed in tarrifs are getting less and less favourable as commercial solar increases due to the mid day excess in supply. Considering the govt is planning on building lots more renewable then UK tariffs are likely to follow suit
Great video, for us covering our large roof with different orientations with some shade compromises was the best thing we have done. We didn’t really think about financial payback, as with 2EVs plus storage battery and heat pump our main objective was reducing our carbon footprint. Last year we netted off our electricity consumption over the course of a year with a facial surplus of £900. Now when we see climate driven events such as the horrendous September rain in UK and Central Europe and the recent US hurricane, at least we now feel we have at least tried to do something.
You have just moved you problem to China and have probably increased your carbon footprint. Still at least you feel good at having made no difference at all.
Only got solar 3 weeks ago. Attached to GivEnergy invertor, GivEnergy battery and GivEnergy EV Charger. On sunny days the battery is full before lunch. I then plug in the car and use excess solar to charge the car for the next few hours.
Yeah, I really wish we'd have squeezed another four panels up there. Perfect East and West roof so two sides. Quote was for 14, got 16, could have fit 20 at a push. Now constantly looking up at the roof thinking what could have been. The ones up there weren't pushed to the top so it would be slightly less space than recommended to add another row on now. Urgh. Also wish I'd have got the pigeon netting as well because we often have more pigeons on the roof than I can count - they breed!
Solar is a no brainer here in Zambia, due to a drought and a grid mainly based on hydro there is electricity rationing with many people having no power for up to three days a week. Cost is prohibitive for most though.
Solar works for home workers, retired and if you have battery storage (aircon is also ideal or heat pumps). People often think more panels the better BUT these can be useful in winter but waste solar in summer. Sizing the array to YOUR requirement is key. I have 4.8kw array and 9.6 kw of batteries. There are few days my batteries aren't full (really bad weather) and in the summer the batteries can be full in less than 3 hours. Max out of my array was over 5kw this summer. I also have my home office running on 2 ring mains. One linked to the house and the other to a power bank which also charges off the solar and runs 2 small heaters linked in parallel. You need to use all the power you generate. Our hybrid gets plugged in when not out driving. You need to calculate your kw usage. Most houses draw about 200 watts per hour or 0,2kw per hour running your boiler, fridge freezer, router etc. So a 24 hour day you will use 4.8 kw minimum which is about £1.20 plus standing charge. Having solar you need to have your washing machine on and dryer during the daytime but not unattended.
We had several days in summer 2024 with negative prices in the middle of the day. So even though they may still pay for export it's not doing the grid any good at that time. This is only going to get more common as more people install solar and more wind comes online. Ideally you want enough storage so that export can be done only at peak times. If your objective is to help optimise the grid, then more panels means more storage.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Yes but if you made it you need to use it as export value half what you buy it for. Why can't export kw be banked for winter like in USA ?
Just did a DIY system using Enphase system on a G98 form. Can generate 1.4kwh max but was £1200 to buy and am using 80-90% daily, exporting at most 2kwh on a very clear sunny day. Very happy with my system and value for money much better than a 6k plus system in my opinion
Your previous video was key in explaining to the wife the payback period. Sure this video will result in many people pulling the trigger on a solar install justblike it helped use. We've also just had a heat pump installed, so our usage/payback period will likely be shorter.
47kWp….2.5 yrs og and loving it. It’s all about what’s important to you. For some it’s a $90K truck, then $3K+ for insurance and taxes annually and $4K+ for fuel.
I would get a battery before solar. And I wouldnt get solar only, because a battery is more flexible, lets you use off peak electric throughout all day and night something you cannot do with solar. Also, I would think year round averaged, its going to be almost impossible to use more than maybe 30% of your generation without a battery simoly because times of day of peak useage and peak solar production dont align with times of peak use.. OK yes in winter you can maybe use 80% of a small amount (But then the savings are much smaller) but in summer you are using perhaps only 10%. My array (large) largest output this year was 44kWh in a day. I"m not going to use more than 3 or 4 in a normal daytime and even if i ran all appliances thats not something i can repeat multiple days in a row. Theres a practical limit to how much you can heat the water, charge the car, or run the tumble dryer.
You do need to do an individual survey. Ours showed that 12 of the latest low light high efficiency panels on a west facing roof would cost £9,500 and save just £300 a year.
Export 15p probably won’t age well considering recent wholesale energy prices, which have thankfully decreased a lot recently. I’d focus on what you can use as long term your solar energy is probably not going to be seen as very valuable to energy companies.
Agile import. Agile export. As much storage as you can afford (which is relatively easy to expand later on). Export only at peak prices. Use agile predict to optimise this over several days, not just 24 hours. This is how we enable a carbon free electricity grid.
Looking back at some old bills. Electricity was 24p for 1st 150 KWh the 12p after (British Gas - I think this was for each quarter). Looking at 2007 it was 20p/KWh . Actually more expensive than today if you take inflation into account. The killer today is the standing charge. You can import zero and still have a large bill. It is not easy to consume solarPV. Most people are at work when most generation goes on unless you have some sort of storage (hot water can only absorb so much). Adding a battery increases self consumption massively but bigger cost, but not necessarily payback time. A battery allows you to consume the energy any time of day or night and you are not at the whim of passing clouds.
A system that generate 3 MWh/year cost over 6000 pounds? The hardware of this system is aprox 1200-1300 pounds. So the electrician (in combination) with birocracy cost 4500+ pounds - BEAUTIFUL !!! I installed (at my house) over 60 kw of panels (covered entire roof) - by myself (working 1-2 h/day) it costed me less then 15000 pounds. and you measure the width of Atlantic Ocean with the ruler - one 550w panel costs 100 USD - F... buracracy, if you have place on the roof - go and put it there - by yourself !
Agree that import cost will go up but export cost solely with solar around it's peak generation to time is likely to fall with so many generating at low demand times in the day. Think California and Australia already seeing that Battery needed 😁 and discharge at peak time when it is wanted ?
If you have a situation where you can minimise install costs, e.g. ground or flat-roof mount, panels are so cheap now that you could be breaking even in a very few years - 400W panels for under 60 quid inc. VAT. If you have space, then more, cheaper panels may be better than fancier ones.
Just a quick one on your inflation thoughts. Yes that’s true but you’ve also got to factor in the time value of money (ie the 4-7k installation cost). What you really need to decide is will electricity go up in price more or less than inflation (technically interest rates but let’s not make it too complex!).
And just to be 100% transparent - I don’t have solar due to the orientation and lack of usable roof (due to a loft extension) so I have ripple - which isn’t a great economic choice but one I made for environmental reasons to mostly offset my elec usage.
Great video as always. Apologies for asking as I'm sure you've covered it in another video, but where are you getting the 15p export from? I'm currently with Scottish Power Smart Gen getting 12p. The problem I find is most favourable rates demand you move your import to them as well, so you lose out there. Octopus have some great rates, but if i switch away from Octopus Intelligent Go (my current tarrif) I'll get fleeced on my off peak rate and it completely eliminates any savings I get from the increase in export payment. To be fair I try to export as little as possible so it's not too bad, but if I could get a better export elsewhere & retain my good off peak rate... Happy days 😁.
@@FFVoyager Thanks for this. I feel an email to Octopus coming on 🙂. Last time I emailed them they said the best they could do was 4p...cheeky buggers.
I'm with scottish Power, it was the best export tariff I could find that doesn't require you to use their import. That was 2 years ago, I don't know if that's changed in the meantime.
How would a power wall work out without solar as a comparison? Ie buy at 7p kWh use it when it’s 24p export or not what’s left if any ? I have neither and it cost me .. Agile Octopus (1st August 2024 - 31st August 2024) Energy Charges for Meter ******* Breakdown by rate Rate Consumption Cost 8.90p/kWh 324.7 kWh £28.91 Total consumption 324.7kWh @ 8.90p/kWh* £28.91 Standing Charge 31 days @ 46.78p/day £14.50 Subtotal of charges before VAT £43.41 VAT @ 5.00% £2.17 Total Electricity Charges £45.58 So in conclusion I’m saving £650 by not having to buy solar or a battery. Payback time is therefore 0 years.
I think solar is still a good investment but only with a system which has enough flexibility to adapt to changes in the electricity market. Unfortunately I wasn't able to talk my father-in-law out of buying a pure solar system (no battery or EV charger), because the salesman showed this gave the shortest payback period with currently available tariffs. As we all know, 15p export is probably going away, or being reduced to match overnight off peak rates, and a battery is then needed for the financials to still add up.
We have had solar since 2011, the installation of a battery last year has made it a much more efficient system. Family don't know ought about anything,so not surprised you couldn't convince F/L otherwise.
It is worth mentioning some figures here, between October 2023 and April 2024. I generated 1,718kWh, exporting around 10% of this. So over Winter/Early spring I saved £387 on buying electricity & made a further £25.30 selling it. South facing roof in the East of England with a pretty shite winter sunwise. Previous years have been slightly better. Annually I'm saving about £1,800 (import and export combined). What sort of generation are you getting from your panels and whereabouts in the country are you? 🙂
Depends on what you have fitted and the orientation. I was charging my car at my cousin's from the solar at 7.2kW on a dull Christmas day in the rain last year. 🤷🏻♂️
@@AlexBurns86 since going live at the end of June and a bit of faffing about with the setup and finally getting export approved on 22nd July according to Octopus we have exported 1,454kWh and earned £218. Our consumption has apparently been 510kW and we've spent about £35 on import in that time - all at 7p/kWh at night topping up the AIO battery - and that is including car charging (we have 2 EV's now!) Average daily generation since then looks to be about 30kW and we've exported about 22kW of that. East/West facing roof in the south west of England currently still getting 2.85kW at 17.50 on the 27 Sept (sunset is about an hour away - 18.58) IF (big if!) things go well I think we might have as much as £1800 combined saving too - but I don't know how well the winter will go. Several calculators suggest that is possible.
just for giggles,my 4kw FITs system installed in 2013,from dec 16 last year up to last sunday, has generated 2,248 kwh & earned me for the same £887.37p tax free however i doubt i will crack the 3 mwh barrier between now and december though, this virtually offsets all my gas/electric charges for the year though, no heatpump triple glazing no ev (yet) looking for a pw3 in the future :)
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@@ElectricVehicleMan so is battery install first step to energy saving in the average home? any chance you could do a video on break even for battery alone…using your famous “averages” of course
Will the price of electricity "always go up"? If we get to a situation similar to Australia or Texas, where around 80% of the electricity comes from renewables, would it not make sense that the KWh falls in price? They may have to increase the standing charge, just to finance the grid in due course. Thanks for the figures and insights.
@@ElectricVehicleMan I charge my Tesla at the SLOWEST rate, 5 amp with Octopus. I plug it in when I am home, and mostly I get the 7p rate from 4 pm to 4 am. From 7am to 4pm the house is empty. Last week I got cheap eclectic for two days from 1:30 pm to 4 am. as I was home and my state of charge was below 50%. Try it. Only charge fast if you absolutely have to.
Solar in UK adds between 4-14% to value of property, this is a good guide for the investment. Free energy is a nice bonus too. PS above does not include battery storage (ie adds value too) but is real asset as well.
@Lawrence7of9 Thanks so much for the insight. Good points about property value. I did look at the Tesla Batteries, have to work out how quickly the batteries also pay for themselves. Would be scary if anything went wrong with them. Be some fire or explosion if the e-bikes and cigs explode so devastatingly. Deffo will look into the Solar though...when I finally get my own place.
LFP home battery mega safe, ignore media lies. Charging ebikes & such entirely different technology. Worry about gas. That kills every year in numbers, as do ICE vehicles many times more likely to catch fire.
It’s probably best to calculate payback purely on usage and not factor in export. The grid will at some point no longer require solar power from private households, at least during the peak solar generation period. Will this be within the next 10 years though, that is the gamble.
This is interesting. Where have you heard this? The most recent interview I have seen with a representative from National Grid mentioned they are very keen to keep encouraging import as it helps them balance the grid.
@@AlexBurns86 Look at "Gary does solar" latest video. Other places have already got to the point where they don't really want your daytime solar, or will pay a tiny amount for it. Also Octopus have just cut business customers rates to 8p/kWh. It wouldn't suprise me if next spring that all suppliers try to squeeze this down to maybe 10-12p. Long long term I suspect the fixed rates will be very low but there will be more providers offering flexible export pricing offering prices based on market conditions.
You could also look at it as an investment in your house. I'm going to be optimistic & say you survive 10+ years and have more money in the long run. If not, your heirs may be happy your home is easier to sell.
If you aren't sure you'll live in that house for the long term, you could consider investing in Ripple Energy instead. That way you can get credit in your bill even if you move house, and the investment in that cooperative can be part of your estate.
Don’t get ripped off, there are lots of sharks. Get at least 4-5 quotes for the same thing and make sure to get exactly what you need in one go, it gets expensive to add to its in fits and starts. But as a rule of thumb, an installer will pay approximately £50 per 440W panel in panels alone. Takes a few weeks to work out what you want, before you even start to get quotes and they are less likely to treat you like a numpty. Not trying to rush you but I do know that octopus are doing £1000 off until end of September, even without the discount I found them considerably cheaper than anyone else but that doesn’t mean you will. The chap on this video was talking about heatable, so I got 2 identically quotes one from octopus and on3 from heatable, the octopus quote was nearly £4k less.
Energy costs are based on oil prices on an international market. So, bg energy will only make money for the quango running it and the landowners where the renewables are located. Joe Public will just be paying more each year, bills will never go down.
Great video, for us covering our large roof with different orientations with some shade compromises was the best thing we have done. We didn’t really think about financial payback, as with 2EVs plus storage battery and heat pump our main objective was reducing our carbon footprint. Last year we netted off our electricity consumption over the course of a year with a facial surplus of £900. Now when we see climate driven events such as the horrendous September rain in UK and Central Europe and the recent US hurricane, at least we now feel we have at least tried to do something.
Depends what you are looking for. We have solar and a battery and absolutely love it. We don't expect it to pay us back. It is another appliance. The TV has no payback period, nor does the fridge, cooker etc. The bonus for us is that our 'earnings' through not paying so much for our electric bill plus the export value is like receiving tax free interest. The money we spent on the system was sitting in a saving account, doing very little and at the point of being taxed. Now it is sitting on the roof, making us less reliant on the grid and earning a bit as well.
Here in Malta we have 300 days of sunshine a year. Lots of people have solar panels but really all of our roofs should have them. They are a no brainer.
I did my masters in renewable energy technology and work in the industry as a project manager. As much as I love the tech, small-scale solar installations on UK homes just don't seem to justify their cost, not unless you are lucky to receive some kind of grant to partly fund the install. With such significant upfront capital expenditure (and therefore opportunity loss with what could've been done with that cash) and a 10+ year payback period, it's just not what any sane business or inventor would call an investable project with attractive ROI. But, I do see why people get them installed anyway - to have zero energy bills and potentially be a net-exporter of energy is hugely empowering and certainly has a "feel good factor".
Got mine in 2011 3.6 kw 72p feedin last quarter got £900! 🤩
Yes ,if you run a business that needs %100 uptime, we have solar gen, inverters and reasonably large LiPO4 banks. Were a small datacenter and data recovery outfit, downtime costs us money.
Mine have been helping power my home since December 2015 , 3000+ kwhs every year (highest was 3466 in 2022)
Absolutely agree that its best to fit as many panels as you can! You may be limited eg by the DNO to have a certain size inverter but this does NOT affect how many panels you can have, this is purely limited by available space. And cost of course..
Yep. Went through this earlier in the year - managed to get 18 420w panels on an east-west 3 bed semi along with some batteries.
Not paid for any electricity since. Well, we have at night but selling during the day offsets that!
Looks likely that we will manage a total profit of over £600 a year - along with 'free' electricity.
Similar. We have 24 east/west 400w panels with two 5kW string inverters.
Plus 11.6 KWh of batteries
@FFVoyager How much were the panels and installation cost?
Looking to buy first house and wondering if best to save £10k for Solar Panels rather than the extra £10k towards deposit?
Thanks in advance for any help.
@@markymoo22 I paid £14500 - but that included a GivEnergy All-in-One with 13.5jWh battery and a Zappi car charger.
@@FFVoyagerMake the most of the export this will NOT last forever and you will receive nothing to export. And this will happen sooner than we think.
You should take into account the cost of the capital outlay when considering whether a PV install will deliver value for money. Based on an assumed £7000 balance that a typical install might cost an average savings account (2.5%) would pay £175 annually, this increases the payback time. Obviously the higher the expected return on capital, a business would generally assume between 7-11%, the greater the impact on payback. One important issue to raise is that very careful consideration should be made if you are thinking of borrowing to fund the install, the finance costs would be a significant drag on any savings made on consumption cost.
Always think the best think for solar, is to attach a battery storage system, that means you can run more of your home off free electricity. You are not getting the feed-in tariffs that there once were available, so use the system in a different way to your advantage.
That depends on whether or not you can use "excess" production in real time. We have two EVs, fully electric heating linked to a large thermal store, and a small swimming pool, so it's nearly always possible to put excess production somewhere.
@@garysmith5025Most people do not have two EVs and a swimming pool 🙄
I also guess you don't use your electric heating in the summer " infrared by any chance" and in the winter the sola is not producing enough to power your heating unless you get battery storage.
Just solar is great in sunny countries but in the UK is not the best route to go down.
Absolutely spot on,
Just solar is outdated and pretty foolish these days.
@@davedevonlad7402 Plenty of people have two EVs, in fact every household I know that has an EV has two of them, and solar panels.
I happen to have an out of ground 10m lap pool (cost £5500) because it means my disabled wife can swim every day and avoid the 70 miles round trip to the public pool, however, many people have hot tubs.
No, I don't have any infrared heating, why make that assumption? Underfloor wet heating and two hydronic fan coils for fast response, all fed from a large thermal store heated by an ASHP and immersion heaters. Useful energy capacity is around 160kWhr for a cost of £1900, can you get battery storage for £12/kWhr?
I'm in Northern Scotland so the heating is used for 9 months of the year at least.
My solar will very rarely produce enough in mid-winter to provide all our heating, so how would a battery help?
Fantastic vid....honest and straight.
I started off, just powering my large shed.....
It's now turned into a massive DIY self build and powering the house as well.
Definitely agree on the this much for X panels go all out and fill it to the max...
As for storage....again I started with 2x 150ah AGM.......at 12v
Now I'm upgrading to 24v with about 25kw of lifepo4 DIY packs.
It's not cheap, but my energy bills are a 1/5 of folks near by.
Hopefully after up grade...I'll get cut off and say goodbye to the greedy energy companys.
In calculating payback time remember that you could have invested the £5k-£10k and got back a probable double inflation rate. Also, you may read that these add at least 4% to the value of your house - realistically it only adds up to £2-3k when fairly newly installed because logically a £200k house won't have it's value increased by £8k as that's the cost of new install. I am a fan of solar panels but perhaps most people should consider it as a lifestyle/environmental choice rather than purely financial.
Yes; best to ignore inflation on these predictions - while prices will go up and so it may look like you're saving more in absolute terms, so would the same money saved in your pension instead have gone up (for example).
Totally agree unless you have the data to do a full blown NPV (net present value) calculation to offset the lost interest on the capital invested Vs the electricity price escalation it is probably just as accurate to do a similar payback calculation.
With the payback being 10 years or more then there is always the cost associated with maintenance and repairs to think factor in as well especially if there are batteries in the system.
In the states feed in tarrifs are getting less and less favourable as commercial solar increases due to the mid day excess in supply. Considering the govt is planning on building lots more renewable then UK tariffs are likely to follow suit
Great video, for us covering our large roof with different orientations with some shade compromises was the best thing we have done. We didn’t really think about financial payback, as with 2EVs plus storage battery and heat pump our main objective was reducing our carbon footprint. Last year we netted off our electricity consumption over the course of a year with a facial surplus of £900. Now when we see climate driven events such as the horrendous September rain in UK and Central Europe and the recent US hurricane, at least we now feel we have at least tried to do something.
You have just moved you problem to China and have probably increased your carbon footprint. Still at least you feel good at having made no difference at all.
Only got solar 3 weeks ago. Attached to GivEnergy invertor, GivEnergy battery and GivEnergy EV Charger. On sunny days the battery is full before lunch. I then plug in the car and use excess solar to charge the car for the next few hours.
Are you not better off charging your car at night on the cheap rate, and getting more for the export in the day?
Probably still awaiting an export MPAN,
@@stuartburns8657 Yea, definitely. Tomato Energy are only 4.7p per kwh at night.
@@stuartburns8657absolutely 👍👍👍
@@bradleyarcher9840quite possibly as mine took a good four to five weeks.
Yeah, I really wish we'd have squeezed another four panels up there. Perfect East and West roof so two sides. Quote was for 14, got 16, could have fit 20 at a push.
Now constantly looking up at the roof thinking what could have been. The ones up there weren't pushed to the top so it would be slightly less space than recommended to add another row on now. Urgh.
Also wish I'd have got the pigeon netting as well because we often have more pigeons on the roof than I can count - they breed!
You need battery storage and whoever advised your system wasn't the best. More panels ? maybe not as batteries would be better.
@@RBcymru I've got a 9.5kWh battery. I could easily add another battery. It is harder to add panels because you need scaffolding as well.
@@dougbamford But why more panels ?????
Solar is a no brainer here in Zambia, due to a drought and a grid mainly based on hydro there is electricity rationing with many people having no power for up to three days a week. Cost is prohibitive for most though.
Hello Zambia. Born and lived in Ndola and then Luanshya and Kalulushi during the 70s and 80s.
Solar works for home workers, retired and if you have battery storage (aircon is also ideal or heat pumps). People often think more panels the better BUT these can be useful in winter but waste solar in summer. Sizing the array to YOUR requirement is key. I have 4.8kw array and 9.6 kw of batteries. There are few days my batteries aren't full (really bad weather) and in the summer the batteries can be full in less than 3 hours. Max out of my array was over 5kw this summer. I also have my home office running on 2 ring mains. One linked to the house and the other to a power bank which also charges off the solar and runs 2 small heaters linked in parallel. You need to use all the power you generate. Our hybrid gets plugged in when not out driving. You need to calculate your kw usage. Most houses draw about 200 watts per hour or 0,2kw per hour running your boiler, fridge freezer, router etc. So a 24 hour day you will use 4.8 kw minimum which is about £1.20 plus standing charge. Having solar you need to have your washing machine on and dryer during the daytime but not unattended.
@@RBcymru Unused solar isn’t wasted, it’s exported and you get paid for it.
We had several days in summer 2024 with negative prices in the middle of the day. So even though they may still pay for export it's not doing the grid any good at that time.
This is only going to get more common as more people install solar and more wind comes online.
Ideally you want enough storage so that export can be done only at peak times.
If your objective is to help optimise the grid, then more panels means more storage.
@@cad4246 Then government should help
@@ElectricVehicleMan Yes but if you made it you need to use it as export value half what you buy it for. Why can't export kw be banked for winter like in USA ?
@@RBcymru I get paid more for export than I can charge off peak, I’m way better off exporting than using.
Quite a common tariff!
Just did a DIY system using Enphase system on a G98 form. Can generate 1.4kwh max but was £1200 to buy and am using 80-90% daily, exporting at most 2kwh on a very clear sunny day. Very happy with my system and value for money much better than a 6k plus system in my opinion
You can export without an MCS certificate, so how did you manage that if you aren’t already a certified and registered installer?
@@yp77738yp77739 you can export but don’t get paid for it which is what I do. Loose like 30p most a day
Your previous video was key in explaining to the wife the payback period. Sure this video will result in many people pulling the trigger on a solar install justblike it helped use. We've also just had a heat pump installed, so our usage/payback period will likely be shorter.
47kWp….2.5 yrs og and loving it. It’s all about what’s important to you. For some it’s a $90K truck, then $3K+ for insurance and taxes annually and $4K+ for fuel.
I would get a battery before solar. And I wouldnt get solar only, because a battery is more flexible, lets you use off peak electric throughout all day and night something you cannot do with solar.
Also, I would think year round averaged, its going to be almost impossible to use more than maybe 30% of your generation without a battery simoly because times of day of peak useage and peak solar production dont align with times of peak use..
OK yes in winter you can maybe use 80% of a small amount (But then the savings are much smaller) but in summer you are using perhaps only 10%. My array (large) largest output this year was 44kWh in a day. I"m not going to use more than 3 or 4 in a normal daytime and even if i ran all appliances thats not something i can repeat multiple days in a row. Theres a practical limit to how much you can heat the water, charge the car, or run the tumble dryer.
It's nice to hear someone who has done their homework on this subject 👍
You do need to do an individual survey. Ours showed that 12 of the latest low light high efficiency panels on a west facing roof would cost £9,500 and save just £300 a year.
Export 15p probably won’t age well considering recent wholesale energy prices, which have thankfully decreased a lot recently. I’d focus on what you can use as long term your solar energy is probably not going to be seen as very valuable to energy companies.
Agile import. Agile export. As much storage as you can afford (which is relatively easy to expand later on).
Export only at peak prices. Use agile predict to optimise this over several days, not just 24 hours.
This is how we enable a carbon free electricity grid.
Looking back at some old bills. Electricity was 24p for 1st 150 KWh the 12p after (British Gas - I think this was for each quarter). Looking at 2007 it was 20p/KWh . Actually more expensive than today if you take inflation into account. The killer today is the standing charge. You can import zero and still have a large bill.
It is not easy to consume solarPV. Most people are at work when most generation goes on unless you have some sort of storage (hot water can only absorb so much). Adding a battery increases self consumption massively but bigger cost, but not necessarily payback time. A battery allows you to consume the energy any time of day or night and you are not at the whim of passing clouds.
A system that generate 3 MWh/year cost over 6000 pounds?
The hardware of this system is aprox 1200-1300 pounds.
So the electrician (in combination) with birocracy cost 4500+ pounds - BEAUTIFUL !!!
I installed (at my house) over 60 kw of panels (covered entire roof) - by myself (working 1-2 h/day) it costed me less then 15000 pounds.
and you measure the width of Atlantic Ocean with the ruler - one 550w panel costs 100 USD - F... buracracy, if you have place on the roof - go and put it there - by yourself !
Agree that import cost will go up but export cost solely with solar around it's peak generation to time is likely to fall with so many generating at low demand times in the day. Think California and Australia already seeing that
Battery needed 😁 and discharge at peak time when it is wanted ?
next week can we have a lesson in discounted cash flow analysis with formulas on the whiteboard
If you have a situation where you can minimise install costs, e.g. ground or flat-roof mount, panels are so cheap now that you could be breaking even in a very few years - 400W panels for under 60 quid inc. VAT. If you have space, then more, cheaper panels may be better than fancier ones.
Just a quick one on your inflation thoughts. Yes that’s true but you’ve also got to factor in the time value of money (ie the 4-7k installation cost). What you really need to decide is will electricity go up in price more or less than inflation (technically interest rates but let’s not make it too complex!).
And just to be 100% transparent - I don’t have solar due to the orientation and lack of usable roof (due to a loft extension) so I have ripple - which isn’t a great economic choice but one I made for environmental reasons to mostly offset my elec usage.
You can now buy 400w panels for about £100 each , what a bargain .
Great video as always.
Apologies for asking as I'm sure you've covered it in another video, but where are you getting the 15p export from?
I'm currently with Scottish Power Smart Gen getting 12p.
The problem I find is most favourable rates demand you move your import to them as well, so you lose out there.
Octopus have some great rates, but if i switch away from Octopus Intelligent Go (my current tarrif) I'll get fleeced on my off peak rate and it completely eliminates any savings I get from the increase in export payment.
To be fair I try to export as little as possible so it's not too bad, but if I could get a better export elsewhere & retain my good off peak rate... Happy days 😁.
We have IOG (and 2 EVs) and are selling our export with Fixed Outgoing Octopus for 15p/kWh.
@@FFVoyager Thanks for this. I feel an email to Octopus coming on 🙂. Last time I emailed them they said the best they could do was 4p...cheeky buggers.
@@AlexBurns86 it's on their website - I have a feeling I even applied for it using the app!
I'm with scottish Power, it was the best export tariff I could find that doesn't require you to use their import. That was 2 years ago, I don't know if that's changed in the meantime.
How would a power wall work out without solar as a comparison? Ie buy at 7p kWh use it when it’s 24p export or not what’s left if any ?
I have neither and it cost me ..
Agile Octopus (1st August 2024 - 31st August 2024)
Energy Charges for Meter *******
Breakdown by rate
Rate
Consumption
Cost
8.90p/kWh
324.7 kWh
£28.91
Total consumption
324.7kWh @ 8.90p/kWh*
£28.91
Standing Charge
31 days @ 46.78p/day
£14.50
Subtotal of charges before VAT
£43.41
VAT @ 5.00%
£2.17
Total Electricity Charges
£45.58
So in conclusion I’m saving £650 by not having to buy solar or a battery. Payback time is therefore 0 years.
I think solar is still a good investment but only with a system which has enough flexibility to adapt to changes in the electricity market. Unfortunately I wasn't able to talk my father-in-law out of buying a pure solar system (no battery or EV charger), because the salesman showed this gave the shortest payback period with currently available tariffs. As we all know, 15p export is probably going away, or being reduced to match overnight off peak rates, and a battery is then needed for the financials to still add up.
We have had solar since 2011, the installation of a battery last year has made it a much more efficient system. Family don't know ought about anything,so not surprised you couldn't convince F/L otherwise.
Be prepared to generate very little from October thru April
@@timtam6442 I’ve had panels for years.
It is worth mentioning some figures here, between October 2023 and April 2024. I generated 1,718kWh, exporting around 10% of this. So over Winter/Early spring I saved £387 on buying electricity & made a further £25.30 selling it.
South facing roof in the East of England with a pretty shite winter sunwise. Previous years have been slightly better.
Annually I'm saving about £1,800 (import and export combined).
What sort of generation are you getting from your panels and whereabouts in the country are you? 🙂
Depends on what you have fitted and the orientation.
I was charging my car at my cousin's from the solar at 7.2kW on a dull Christmas day in the rain last year. 🤷🏻♂️
@@AlexBurns86 since going live at the end of June and a bit of faffing about with the setup and finally getting export approved on 22nd July according to Octopus we have exported 1,454kWh and earned £218. Our consumption has apparently been 510kW and we've spent about £35 on import in that time - all at 7p/kWh at night topping up the AIO battery - and that is including car charging (we have 2 EV's now!)
Average daily generation since then looks to be about 30kW and we've exported about 22kW of that.
East/West facing roof in the south west of England currently still getting 2.85kW at 17.50 on the 27 Sept (sunset is about an hour away - 18.58)
IF (big if!) things go well I think we might have as much as £1800 combined saving too - but I don't know how well the winter will go. Several calculators suggest that is possible.
Why does everything have to make financial sense ? Just use what you need without worry.
@@barrywhite5899 Look around you.
just for giggles,my 4kw FITs system installed in 2013,from dec 16 last year up to last sunday, has generated 2,248 kwh & earned me for the same £887.37p tax free however i doubt i will crack the 3 mwh barrier between now and december though, this virtually offsets all my gas/electric charges for the year though, no heatpump triple glazing no ev (yet) looking for a pw3 in the future :)
Our 4Kwh First edition FITs averages 3.5 MWHs and considerably more than £800 .Sometimes I am embarrassed by this, but we didn't make up the rules.
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In UK, could you save with cheap off peak import just using batteries alone?
@@trick700 More than solar.
@@ElectricVehicleMan so is battery install first step to energy saving in the average home? any chance you could do a video on break even for battery alone…using your famous “averages” of course
@@trick700 In the channel.
th-cam.com/video/jShkIGghhgg/w-d-xo.html
@@ElectricVehicleMan thank you
Will the price of electricity "always go up"? If we get to a situation similar to Australia or Texas, where around 80% of the electricity comes from renewables, would it not make sense that the KWh falls in price? They may have to increase the standing charge, just to finance the grid in due course. Thanks for the figures and insights.
@@connclissmann6514 The nature of inflation suggests that’s what happens historically.
The renewable supplier will be guaranteed a price for the term of the contract.
It will go up as long as the leccy price is linked to gas price..it needs to be decoupled urgently!
@@ElectricVehicleMan Australia and Texas get a lot more sun than the UK. eg see data : Solar Photovoltaic Power Potential by Country (World bank).
Inflation isn’t the only factor that affects the price of something.
So how long will it take to get my money back on a Octopus price of 7p A long time I guess.
Considering that’s only in use at night, it’s the day time price you need to look at.
@@ElectricVehicleMan I charge my Tesla at the SLOWEST rate, 5 amp with Octopus. I plug it in when I am home, and mostly I get the 7p rate from 4 pm to 4 am. From 7am to 4pm the house is empty. Last week I got cheap eclectic for two days from 1:30 pm to 4 am. as I was home and my state of charge was below 50%. Try it. Only charge fast if you absolutely have to.
If buying a new house.
Would it be best to put £10k towards installing Solar or putting a further £10k on the house deposit?
Solar in UK adds between 4-14% to value of property, this is a good guide for the investment. Free energy is a nice bonus too. PS above does not include battery storage (ie adds value too) but is real asset as well.
@Lawrence7of9 Thanks so much for the insight. Good points about property value.
I did look at the Tesla Batteries, have to work out how quickly the batteries also pay for themselves. Would be scary if anything went wrong with them.
Be some fire or explosion if the e-bikes and cigs explode so devastatingly.
Deffo will look into the Solar though...when I finally get my own place.
LFP home battery mega safe, ignore media lies. Charging ebikes & such entirely different technology. Worry about gas. That kills every year in numbers, as do ICE vehicles many times more likely to catch fire.
It’s probably best to calculate payback purely on usage and not factor in export. The grid will at some point no longer require solar power from private households, at least during the peak solar generation period. Will this be within the next 10 years though, that is the gamble.
This is interesting. Where have you heard this?
The most recent interview I have seen with a representative from National Grid mentioned they are very keen to keep encouraging import as it helps them balance the grid.
@@AlexBurns86 Gary Does Solar.
th-cam.com/video/4loz5EAHVUY/w-d-xo.html
@@st200ol don't know about your latter point, the grid gets much more from wind than from solar..
@@AlexBurns86 Look at "Gary does solar" latest video.
Other places have already got to the point where they don't really want your daytime solar, or will pay a tiny amount for it.
Also Octopus have just cut business customers rates to 8p/kWh. It wouldn't suprise me if next spring that all suppliers try to squeeze this down to maybe 10-12p. Long long term I suspect the fixed rates will be very low but there will be more providers offering flexible export pricing offering prices based on market conditions.
@@gavjlewis while he might have a point we have quite a long way to go before we get to that situation here.
What about fitting solar for the elderly at very low cost.Iam 75 am I going to pay say over ten grand for payback?
@@foppo100 It would be half that.
You could also look at it as an investment in your house. I'm going to be optimistic & say you survive 10+ years and have more money in the long run. If not, your heirs may be happy your home is easier to sell.
If you aren't sure you'll live in that house for the long term, you could consider investing in Ripple Energy instead. That way you can get credit in your bill even if you move house, and the investment in that cooperative can be part of your estate.
Don’t get ripped off, there are lots of sharks.
Get at least 4-5 quotes for the same thing and make sure to get exactly what you need in one go, it gets expensive to add to its in fits and starts. But as a rule of thumb, an installer will pay approximately £50 per 440W panel in panels alone. Takes a few weeks to work out what you want, before you even start to get quotes and they are less likely to treat you like a numpty.
Not trying to rush you but I do know that octopus are doing £1000 off until end of September, even without the discount I found them considerably cheaper than anyone else but that doesn’t mean you will. The chap on this video was talking about heatable, so I got 2 identically quotes one from octopus and on3 from heatable, the octopus quote was nearly £4k less.
Isn't GB Energy going to cut our bills? 😉
How?
It's a government thing so it's bound to be a car crash, don't hold your breath.
Energy costs are based on oil prices on an international market. So, bg energy will only make money for the quango running it and the landowners where the renewables are located. Joe Public will just be paying more each year, bills will never go down.
the video when intro was removed.
i miss the shaving-kit ads...🪒💇♂
Great video, for us covering our large roof with different orientations with some shade compromises was the best thing we have done. We didn’t really think about financial payback, as with 2EVs plus storage battery and heat pump our main objective was reducing our carbon footprint. Last year we netted off our electricity consumption over the course of a year with a facial surplus of £900. Now when we see climate driven events such as the horrendous September rain in UK and Central Europe and the recent US hurricane, at least we now feel we have at least tried to do something.