I don't think he intended to upload that version honestly. :P I was wondering if I should shut up about it, out of fear he might change it. ;) EDIT: nevermind, I was not far enough in the video to see he kept it there on purpose. :o)
Love these reviews, they always flesh out the mechanics in a digestible manner. The only thing I'd argue with student of war is that it does synergize well with legend mythic if you stack it with 20 levels of sword saint and 10 of duelist. AC rapidly hits above 80 with one dip of scaled fist and its very funny.
Mystic Theurge is an incomplete class since it's missing its capstone ability, spell synthesis, which lets the character cast an arcane and a divine spell in one action. If want to take the class, you should take classes that use the same casting attribute, like Oracle/Sorcerer, which both use charisma. It's also better with Legend since you can get full casting levels for both your arcane and divine classes and still have some levels left over. With only level 20, an Eldritch Scion/Oracle/Mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight Angel could work since the EK's spell critical works on any spell you can cast, but you'll miss out on level 10 spells with a merged spellbook.
Erm, that build would only have 2 levels of mystic theurge if it also had spell critical. You would have to be 4 eldritch scion/4 oracle to qualify, and need 10 levels of EK for spell critical. At that point, you are casting as a level 17 magus and level 6 oracle. If you merged with angel for oracle, you would still only hit caster level 16 as oracle, getting access to your mythic spells slow than unmerged. In short, this would be a very bad build. EK on a magus is a huge waste in general anyway. Also, legend in general is pretty bad for casters. If you really pump intelligence (mainly with alchemist), you somewhat can offset the loss of mythic abilities and mythic path features to DCs and spell slots. Even if you do go legend, I honestly dont see a compelling case for not just going 20 sorc and oracle and get all the class features. You caster level is capped at 20 anyway outside merged spell books and mythic path features, items and feats that increase caster level. Combining class levels in a spellbook beyond level 20 doesnt work last time I checked.
@@notalefty999 you get EK for the spell critical capstone ability, which automatically quickens your next spell whenever you score a critical. So if you go Magus/EK, you get a quickened spell in addition to your spell strike spell when you crit. Spell critical is also useful for spontaneous casters that want to apply metamagic to their spells since metamagic increases casting time to full round but with spell critical, metamagic spells get quickened to a swift action. Spell critical also works for any spell you can cast. So if you're Legend and go something like 4 Sorc/10 Oracle/10 MT/10 EK, every time you crit, you can use the quickened spell to cast an Oracle spell.
@@KingOfMadCows Yes I understand what spell critical does, but your proposed build is 2 levels in mystic theurge and 6 caster levels in oracle. It rather defeats the point. You might as well just make a wizard EK build that gets 16 BAB and caster level 19 with a full wizard spellbook, and uses deaths consonant. Take angel or aeon mythic path, and you would have a much better divine caster too.
@@notalefty999 I didn't say it was a good build. I pointed out in my post that the MT class is missing its capstone ability. The class is bad without that ability since you have too many spells but your caster level is low so the spells you cast aren't that powerful. The class is really only viable with that ability, you'll have weak spells but at least you'll be able to quickly throw out a lot of them. EK sort of emulates the spell synthesis ability by allowing you to throw out more spells.
Mystic Theurge: You *can* max out (level 9 spells) one of the two classes, but it requires using the Lich or Angel mythic path. And you won't get the level 10 spells of that path. More pressing, in my view, is that it slows down your spell penetration initially (which is 1d20 + caster level + feats). This was a MAJOR hurtle for me when taking Drezen. Not as much of a penalty if you're focusing on buffs, but it's still there. Stalwart Defender: as with the paladin subclass Stonelord: If you are mounted and go into the stance, it stops your mount as well. A way to clear to fatigue is essential, so you can reposition, clear the fatigue, and reactivate the stance. Combat is *very* mobile, with perfect choke points being only in a minority of encounters. I haven't tested to see if Defensive Stance will stack with Barbarian or Demon rage, or with the Stonelord's levels, though. Damage reduction *sounds* good, but no class gives you an amount which is noticeable at higher levels. At level one, DR 1 can keep you in the fight longer. At level 15, DR 5 isn't even noticed.
I've seen someone posting about some crazy Lich build that they had DR stacked to something nutty like 85, and can't remember any of the hows about it. I think the idea was untyped DR stacks. Apparently they combined that with the life leech and temp hit points to be mostly unkillable. Also as Ineffect pointed out, DR seems to be very handy on higher difficulties such as unfair because it reduces the damage before its gets multiplied by the difficulty handicap, thus he gets Bulwark on his mounts. Does any of this make me want to spec into SD, nope. Maybe it would be ok to some level on a dedicated tank with Legendary Proportions, a reach weapon, and lunge, but stationary is just so bad.
Wait, why would you need those paths? You need to cast level 2 spells in Arcane and Divine. So say level 3 Wizard and level 3 Cleric. You'd be level 6. Then you take 10 levels of Mystic Theurge and each of those classes goes to 13. You're level 16 and have 4 levels left. So say you take 4 Wizard levels, your casting level is then 17 for Wizard and you get level 9 spells (or vice versa for Cleric). Or am I off in my thinking there?
So it's not as powerful but oracle sorcerer is a good combo. However I love giving sosiel empyreal sorcerer and then mystic theurge. In table top the Ur priest prestige class gets 9th level casting in 10 levels. Making it possible to get 9 levels of both arcane and divine casting though it's a very minmaxy build because there's very little reason for ur priest to be buddy buddy with any of the wisdom based arcane classes.
I'm really late to this video, but am currently theory crafting for an Aeon playthrough. I actually think Mystic Theurge is a great fit thematically. Even though Angel/Lich merged spell book is the mechanically the superior choice...I think the idea of using a mix of divine and arcane spells, seeing no reason to limit yourself on resources in order to complete a task fits really well. Like, I originally sat down and thought about what would theoretically be the top two stats for each mythic path, and Aeon was the only one I kept coming back to wis/int on. Then I thought about what classes benefit from this combination...and well, reading through the description of the Mystic Theurge through the lens of an Aeon just made too much sense to me. I don't know, I just had a random spark of inspiration from this and figured I'd share, lol
Student of War being in the game without his baby class Lore Warden is so strange...Not that lore warden would save the class but the bonus skills points, early know your enemy and free combat expertise feat line make they progress very smooth...Since they homebrew an elemental witch so the Winter Witch have her baby class it's so odd that student of war is just there existing as an maybe 2 level dip for the already weak half elf unique class
@@SlanderedGaming i think its because they are the "face" subclass for the fighter giving up a lot of combat power for things like crafting, language and knowledge cheks but they wanted the class to be only combat focused
Regarding Mystic Theurge you can also go the way of the spell cannon. You start with Sorcerer and Oracle, take at least 4 levels in both classes, take Lich or Angel path to integrate path spell book with base class spell book, get full Mystic Theurge, raise either Sorcerer or Oracle to level 6 and haul spells at your enemy like a maniac.
I played Mystic Theurge in kingmaker. I used the cleric ecclesitheurge class for blessing of the faithfull and holy symbool. Then as a wizard i toke Thassilonian specialist. I became the party support.
Think Mystic Thurge will be my Legend playthrough. For over a decade, I've wanted to play out my DnD 3.5 True Necromancer build in a game. This is the closest I'll get
just fiddled arround with mt for fun in dlc1 and with legend MP you can get a lot of magic out of this, just make sure to pick 2 casters with the same casting stat. so oracle for devine and sorceror/ stigmatized witch for arcane. alternatively cleric/druid/shaman for devine and empereal sorceror and you got yourself a wise one.
Stalwart defender for three levels is one of the best ways to get uncanny dodge for a martial character. For three levels without any BAB loss you don’t lose your ability score and dodge bonuses to AC. You can get it with two levels of archaeologist but that costs one BAB. It is also possible to get it with one level in Loremaster but also costs one BAB.
Mystic Theurge is pretty lousy in tabletop too. I use WoTR and the gestalt option, so I never glanced at it there. Never glanced at the other two - I generally play arcane casters/skill monkey. Student of War seems it needs a lot of skill points to use well - and most martial classes don't have many. An excellent review as always.
I would say Mystic Theurge is rather bad. Firstly, qualifying for the prestige class is awful. A 3 cleric/3 wizard is a really lousy character, and if you dont want to split your caster stat, say cleric empyreal sorcerer, or oracle sorcerer, you are delaying taking the class until level 8 or 9. You will then need to take many levels in mystic theurge to start getting access to powerful spells, so the game will be more than half over before you stop being a complete deadweight. Secondly, being both a divine and arcane caster is almost entirely non synergistic. An eldritch knight buffs his fighting capabilities, and at level 10, can swift cast after a crit, allowing attacking and casting at the same time. The arcane trickster's rogue features boost their spell damage. These classes also sacrifice much less in caster level to qualify in the first place. But a Mystic Theurge casts a divine spell or an arcane spell. It cannot do both simultaneously, and the abilities of one spell book do virtually nothing to enhance you ability to cast from the other spell book. On the contrary, by sacrificing at least 3 caster levels and likely splitting your casting stat, you are severely weakening your casting potential in either magic type to be able to do both, not at the same time, but simply with one character. Being able to alternate between being a mediocre wizard and very poor cleric or vice versa is far worse than just doing one job well all the time. You have a terrible early game, a terrible midgame, and a mediocre late game as this class. I tested with inevitable excess, and you can take a single level in one class, merge with the respective mythic path, and then take mystic theurge. So you could take Sorcerer 9, orcale 1, merge oracle with angel, and then take 10 levels of mystic theurge, finishing as a level 19 sorcerer and level 21 oracle (at mythic rank 10), or you could invert this with a lich playthrough. This solves the issues of splitting casting stats and having an atrocious early game, as you play a pure caster of 1 class to level 9. But the opportunity cost here is enormous. You could just play a pure angel oracle or a pure lich sorcerer, get access to level 9 mythic spells mid chapter 3, and have caster level 30+ endgame (which matters a lot for mythic spells, and allows 24 hour spells even for 1 round per level spells). I would still say its the best way to go if you must play mystic theurge.
It's too bad spell sequencer isn't a thing anymore, Mystic Theurge would greatly benefit from it in addition to any caster wanting to lay out multiple spells in quick succession.
Stalwart Defender : if the stance had a long duration, or lasted as long as you did not move (with maybe other penalties), it could be somewhat interesting (even then). But it only last a few rounds, making this class a sad sight. In Kingmaker, with Valerie, I took a one level dip. // Student of War was not in Kingmaker, as otherwise that dip would have been sooo much more fun.
I'm a retired man who has had no experience with D & D and became aware of and was interested in playing these types of games because I played Divinity Original Sin, The second version of Orion and Imperialism because of my dearly departed brother. The choices in this game are way beyond me and I'd like some help picking a character that will introduce me to some of the choices available without killing me every time. I play on average or the next hardest choice. Offensive melee and wizard type skills I understand but the pre fight buffs are beyond me and I need hand holding in this part as I'm unfamiliar with pre fight buffs. There is way too much information for me, I'm overwhelmed.
Mystic Theurge is one of those classes that is always really tempting cause it sounds so cool but making it work is practically impossible. Getting 5 levels of wizard, say, and then spending the next 5 levels on cleric and being stuck at spell level 3 all the way through level 11 is just brutal. As part of a high level respec or Inevitable Excess build (especially for Legend) it can do some fun goofy stuff which is probably enough to justify your rating. It's just always kind of disappointing because it sounds /so awesome/ and then it's just so limited. Still I think everyone tries to make at least half a dozen Mystic Theurge builds.
@@CrazyxEnigma I mean bg2 might be the most broken magic system I've ever seen. Spell trigger, chain contingency, project image, time stop. You can if u wanted to drop a total of 120d8 damage in a single round. U can also shapchange into a mindflayer, timestop and pretty much instakill any enemy in shadows of amn with devour brain.
To help you take emp sorcerer up to spell level 2 and cleric to spell level 2. if you use it with acolyte background you can dump charisma and have persuasion still good and a powerful wisdom caster
@@matingly23 So in this scenario, at level 7 you get your first Mystic Theurge Level. If you were Wizard 7 you'd have 4th level spells. But instead you just have a bunch of 2nd level spells. And Wizard/Cleric is really poor synergy, you're wanting INT, WIS, and CHA for channeling, so basically you're limited to party buffing and spells with no saves. You can use Sorcerer archetypes to get your casting stats to line up, but then you lose an additional level of spell progression. It's always so close to working but it just doesn't really work. Merged spellbook kind of fixes this and makes it at least viable but it's still probably worse than just being a Wizard/Lich or Cleric/Angel.
Student of War seems like a much better class on the tabletop because it facilitates interesting roleplay; you can make an intelligence-focused martial. The class bonuses are nice, but the real purpose strikes me as like, being the guy that knows battlefield tactics and comes up with strategies while being able to fight very well. You're like, the Sokka of the team. I suppose you CAN still play an intelligence-focused fighter with this, and that might be fun, but since this is a computer game and not an actual tabletop RPG where you can consistently use a higher intelligence as a defining trait and solution to problems it seems... More limited Still, I could see it potentially being fun with Duelist. Mind over Metal replaces Dex to AC with Intelligence, and then Duelist applies Intelligence to AC as a dodge bonus... There's some potential there, considering that would give you a majority of skills as well. Probably not the most powerful choice even in the narrow field of exclusively martial characters, but certainly an unusual option.
what I dislike about mystic theurge is that if you want to select it and go through it for all 10 levels, if you have a cleric or a class that does channel energy you won't get any extra dice for it for the MT levels, it took me till almost the end of the game to understand why my cleric wasn't doing more than 19 hp heal per channel positive energy
It's too bad Mystic Theurge doesn't have it's capstone ability from tabletop. At least with Angel, Lich or Legend it isn't a total gimp class as I really like the theme and flavor. The best thing is to either go Cleric/ Wizard and hope you get one of those circlets that boost Int and Wis or go Oracle/ Sorcerer, you're only reliant on Cha but you don't get as high of a caster level with spontaneous casting, tough choice.
Have you ever created pathfinder mercinaries that do better than story NPCs? Replacement mercs I call em. (Plus they come in handy during situations your story NPCs cant join)
In my current Angel run I simply couldn't live with a certain NPC and, after turning her in to the law, replaced her with LG(so Seelah can buff her with Bestow Grace) Shadow Shaman Chief Ageboya who has battle master, 7dc sneak, a mount at 16, all the base hexes that I want, the same spells, and chant. Sounds useful, does it not?
Mystic Theurge I always felt was the natural progression path for Tristian in Kingmaker, but I agree that it doesn't work as a main character prestige path. Same with Stalwart Defender. I would normally take either my Valerie or Harrim down that path, but heavy armor MC builds just aren't fun. I know how that opening feels lol I used to snap, clap or whoop in order to help me find sections to clip out during editing, but eventually the repetition of editing sets in, making it easier to forget to look for things like that, so now I use a key phrase instead, which I made weird enough that I haven't managed to leave it in since I started using it. Obviously it doesn't pop out on the vocal graph, but knowing that I said it creates a sensory memory that reminds me to look for it.
I'm actually currently trying his build, but am not far enough along to say if it's good. All of his builds I've used in the past were good though, so I doubt it'll be a problem.
Mystic Theurge is fine with merged spellbooks in other games when it was implemented it was petty much ass... Now legend , Lich and Angel can all tinker with it in a way that allows you to reach level 9 spells and you might even have a chance to have the same caster stats for both halves. Oracle-sorcerer or cleric/druid-sage sorcerer are both appealing. Just don't go Int based. I liked mine and it didnt feel left behind as it did in other games but I see why many people say it's not for them. But just having this arseanal of spells is appealing to some. Me included... :D
@@SlanderedGaming True. The thing is: I had to try it in THIS game because without mythic leves and mythic sellbooks this is definitely a pretty bad prestiege class. Even this way I wouldnt say it's anywhere near overpowered. so that is that :) At least Iplayed one to its potential.
With MT it really becomes a question of how badly do you want to free up a character slot for 5 non-wizard/cleric type characters. With all the nonsense you get at high levels plus mythics, it's not like your single-class mages are running out of good spell slots, so one of each should do better than two MTs. Might still be fun to Angel/Lich merge spellbook gimmick through the prereqs and run five martial or 4 plus bard, and have the MC be a buff bot.
@@SlanderedGaming The more I try to find use cases, the less interested I am. Saves and maxing are so important that Swiss army knife is just disappointing and sad. My gut tells me that MT is B tier at best, with a really harsh levels 1-12 or so, and not enough compensation for missing out on caster lvl 20. B tier with an unpleasant early-to-mid is rough. Basically sort of breaks even when you finally can cast lvl 3s in abundance, but man. Just take one of each. I tried to make it work in Kingmaker and it was sad and eventually got sort of ok. But lolol.
You get the normal amount, and trust me... It's way more than you could ever need lol given how the class works xD It was an interesting try with that class, but in the end it actually felt powerful rather than just chipping away at enemies.
Eh, I wouldn't try to tank as a melee on unfair. I don't think you're going to reliably eat attacks form guys with high BAB and them hitting you 2x as hard. Also you're going to just leave Winter Witch alone to suck 1 more video out of us.....I respect the hustle
Slandered...you did a no no. If you're gonna do mystic theurge your casters need to have the same stats. Wis=wis sorcerer and cleric(preferably ecclesitheurge) Cha= Oracle, sorcerer, stigmatized witch. Intelligence has no use for this prestige class and I had a long discussion about this class how to work with this class with the community and they told me that must be the same stat of your caster for this prestige class to work
Its a bad class full stop, but if you have the same caster stat, unless you merge your mythic path spellbook, you cannot get level 9 spells at all. Any combination of casters that allows a shared casting stat will require at least 4 levels in one of the classes as it will be a spontaneous caster. So if its sorc oracle, you will end up with either 16 sorc/14 oracle or vice versa. 1 level 8 spell for sorc on 1 7th level spell for oracle only. Best case is cleric/empyreal sorc, but that is 17 sorc/13 cleric (2 level 8 spells) or 16 cleric/14 sorc (still level 8 spells, on only 1 level 7 sorc spell). Due to the extremely limited number of known spells for mystic theurge spontaneous casters and they fact that they rule out level 9 spells, they are a bad option. A 17 wizard/13 cleric or vice versa at least gets max level spells, and has some choice over which spells it casts on a given day. Obviously Angel or Lich mythic paths change things somewhat.
@@kurtbrisch5776 I know you can merge mythic paths to do this (as alluded to in the last line of my post), but this is still far worse than the alternative of playing a pure class. You very significantly delay access to the most powerful spells and gimp your caster level (this matter for mythic spell damage a lot, dispel potential, and getting 24 hour round per level buffs), for the sake of 2nd spellbook that will cast at level 17 and lacks any mythic spells, and you have 2 spellcasting attributes. You also play the first 3rd of the game is a truly pathetic character. You also miss out on level 10 spells.
They are a lot of classes from neverwinter nights that were implemented into pathfinder. Frankly, they do not make sense having them here. For example Dragon disciple or Mystic Theurge a just a blunt copy from neverwinter and because of that their gameplay in this game sucks balls.
"I hope all of you are having an absolutely fantastic day..." the introduction always makes my day better 😄
Aw nice I am glad to hear it!
Kept the goof in I love it
good to know he is a human that stutters sometimes like the rest of us!
I laughed out loud
I don't think he intended to upload that version honestly. :P I was wondering if I should shut up about it, out of fear he might change it. ;) EDIT: nevermind, I was not far enough in the video to see he kept it there on purpose. :o)
😂😂
Love these reviews, they always flesh out the mechanics in a digestible manner. The only thing I'd argue with student of war is that it does synergize well with legend mythic if you stack it with 20 levels of sword saint and 10 of duelist. AC rapidly hits above 80 with one dip of scaled fist and its very funny.
Oh nice that's a good call out thank you!
Nice analysis. I learn something every time I watch one of these
Thank you!
Mystic Theurge is an incomplete class since it's missing its capstone ability, spell synthesis, which lets the character cast an arcane and a divine spell in one action.
If want to take the class, you should take classes that use the same casting attribute, like Oracle/Sorcerer, which both use charisma. It's also better with Legend since you can get full casting levels for both your arcane and divine classes and still have some levels left over. With only level 20, an Eldritch Scion/Oracle/Mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight Angel could work since the EK's spell critical works on any spell you can cast, but you'll miss out on level 10 spells with a merged spellbook.
Erm, that build would only have 2 levels of mystic theurge if it also had spell critical. You would have to be 4 eldritch scion/4 oracle to qualify, and need 10 levels of EK for spell critical. At that point, you are casting as a level 17 magus and level 6 oracle. If you merged with angel for oracle, you would still only hit caster level 16 as oracle, getting access to your mythic spells slow than unmerged. In short, this would be a very bad build. EK on a magus is a huge waste in general anyway.
Also, legend in general is pretty bad for casters. If you really pump intelligence (mainly with alchemist), you somewhat can offset the loss of mythic abilities and mythic path features to DCs and spell slots. Even if you do go legend, I honestly dont see a compelling case for not just going 20 sorc and oracle and get all the class features. You caster level is capped at 20 anyway outside merged spell books and mythic path features, items and feats that increase caster level. Combining class levels in a spellbook beyond level 20 doesnt work last time I checked.
@@notalefty999 you get EK for the spell critical capstone ability, which automatically quickens your next spell whenever you score a critical. So if you go Magus/EK, you get a quickened spell in addition to your spell strike spell when you crit. Spell critical is also useful for spontaneous casters that want to apply metamagic to their spells since metamagic increases casting time to full round but with spell critical, metamagic spells get quickened to a swift action.
Spell critical also works for any spell you can cast. So if you're Legend and go something like 4 Sorc/10 Oracle/10 MT/10 EK, every time you crit, you can use the quickened spell to cast an Oracle spell.
@@KingOfMadCows Yes I understand what spell critical does, but your proposed build is 2 levels in mystic theurge and 6 caster levels in oracle. It rather defeats the point.
You might as well just make a wizard EK build that gets 16 BAB and caster level 19 with a full wizard spellbook, and uses deaths consonant. Take angel or aeon mythic path, and you would have a much better divine caster too.
@@notalefty999 I didn't say it was a good build. I pointed out in my post that the MT class is missing its capstone ability. The class is bad without that ability since you have too many spells but your caster level is low so the spells you cast aren't that powerful. The class is really only viable with that ability, you'll have weak spells but at least you'll be able to quickly throw out a lot of them.
EK sort of emulates the spell synthesis ability by allowing you to throw out more spells.
That intro was golden, lol
😂😂
LOL i loved the retake!
😂
Thanks!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
Mystic Theurge: You *can* max out (level 9 spells) one of the two classes, but it requires using the Lich or Angel mythic path. And you won't get the level 10 spells of that path. More pressing, in my view, is that it slows down your spell penetration initially (which is 1d20 + caster level + feats). This was a MAJOR hurtle for me when taking Drezen. Not as much of a penalty if you're focusing on buffs, but it's still there.
Stalwart Defender: as with the paladin subclass Stonelord: If you are mounted and go into the stance, it stops your mount as well. A way to clear to fatigue is essential, so you can reposition, clear the fatigue, and reactivate the stance. Combat is *very* mobile, with perfect choke points being only in a minority of encounters. I haven't tested to see if Defensive Stance will stack with Barbarian or Demon rage, or with the Stonelord's levels, though. Damage reduction *sounds* good, but no class gives you an amount which is noticeable at higher levels. At level one, DR 1 can keep you in the fight longer. At level 15, DR 5 isn't even noticed.
I've seen someone posting about some crazy Lich build that they had DR stacked to something nutty like 85, and can't remember any of the hows about it. I think the idea was untyped DR stacks. Apparently they combined that with the life leech and temp hit points to be mostly unkillable. Also as Ineffect pointed out, DR seems to be very handy on higher difficulties such as unfair because it reduces the damage before its gets multiplied by the difficulty handicap, thus he gets Bulwark on his mounts. Does any of this make me want to spec into SD, nope. Maybe it would be ok to some level on a dedicated tank with Legendary Proportions, a reach weapon, and lunge, but stationary is just so bad.
Wait, why would you need those paths? You need to cast level 2 spells in Arcane and Divine. So say level 3 Wizard and level 3 Cleric. You'd be level 6. Then you take 10 levels of Mystic Theurge and each of those classes goes to 13. You're level 16 and have 4 levels left. So say you take 4 Wizard levels, your casting level is then 17 for Wizard and you get level 9 spells (or vice versa for Cleric). Or am I off in my thinking there?
Love these video's, my go to guides :)
Awesome glad you liked them!
So it's not as powerful but oracle sorcerer is a good combo.
However I love giving sosiel empyreal sorcerer and then mystic theurge.
In table top the Ur priest prestige class gets 9th level casting in 10 levels. Making it possible to get 9 levels of both arcane and divine casting though it's a very minmaxy build because there's very little reason for ur priest to be buddy buddy with any of the wisdom based arcane classes.
Oh nice that does sound interesting.
@@SlanderedGaming alot of players criticize ur priest for being to powerful due to how fast you gain 9th level casting. I'm a little more indifferent
I'm really late to this video, but am currently theory crafting for an Aeon playthrough. I actually think Mystic Theurge is a great fit thematically. Even though Angel/Lich merged spell book is the mechanically the superior choice...I think the idea of using a mix of divine and arcane spells, seeing no reason to limit yourself on resources in order to complete a task fits really well.
Like, I originally sat down and thought about what would theoretically be the top two stats for each mythic path, and Aeon was the only one I kept coming back to wis/int on. Then I thought about what classes benefit from this combination...and well, reading through the description of the Mystic Theurge through the lens of an Aeon just made too much sense to me. I don't know, I just had a random spark of inspiration from this and figured I'd share, lol
Student of War being in the game without his baby class Lore Warden is so strange...Not that lore warden would save the class but the bonus skills points, early know your enemy and free combat expertise feat line make they progress very smooth...Since they homebrew an elemental witch so the Winter Witch have her baby class it's so odd that student of war is just there existing as an maybe 2 level dip for the already weak half elf unique class
Yup not sure what the reasoning is.
@@SlanderedGaming i think its because they are the "face" subclass for the fighter giving up a lot of combat power for things like crafting, language and knowledge cheks but they wanted the class to be only combat focused
Regarding Mystic Theurge you can also go the way of the spell cannon. You start with Sorcerer and Oracle, take at least 4 levels in both classes, take Lich or Angel path to integrate path spell book with base class spell book, get full Mystic Theurge, raise either Sorcerer or Oracle to level 6 and haul spells at your enemy like a maniac.
I played Mystic Theurge in kingmaker. I used the cleric ecclesitheurge class for blessing of the faithfull and holy symbool. Then as a wizard i toke Thassilonian specialist. I became the party support.
Think Mystic Thurge will be my Legend playthrough. For over a decade, I've wanted to play out my DnD 3.5 True Necromancer build in a game. This is the closest I'll get
def gonna try a mystic theurge and loremaster with a legend caster
Again, let me express my appreciation for going through all of them classes and archetypes in detail. Great job brother, just great
Thank you! Glad you have enjoyed them!
just fiddled arround with mt for fun in dlc1 and with legend MP you can get a lot of magic out of this, just make sure to pick 2 casters with the same casting stat. so oracle for devine and sorceror/ stigmatized witch for arcane. alternatively cleric/druid/shaman for devine and empereal sorceror and you got yourself a wise one.
Stalwart defender for three levels is one of the best ways to get uncanny dodge for a martial character. For three levels without any BAB loss you don’t lose your ability score and dodge bonuses to AC. You can get it with two levels of archaeologist but that costs one BAB. It is also possible to get it with one level in Loremaster but also costs one BAB.
Mystic Theurge is pretty lousy in tabletop too. I use WoTR and the gestalt option, so I never glanced at it there. Never glanced at the other two - I generally play arcane casters/skill monkey. Student of War seems it needs a lot of skill points to use well - and most martial classes don't have many. An excellent review as always.
Thank you!
I would say Mystic Theurge is rather bad.
Firstly, qualifying for the prestige class is awful. A 3 cleric/3 wizard is a really lousy character, and if you dont want to split your caster stat, say cleric empyreal sorcerer, or oracle sorcerer, you are delaying taking the class until level 8 or 9. You will then need to take many levels in mystic theurge to start getting access to powerful spells, so the game will be more than half over before you stop being a complete deadweight.
Secondly, being both a divine and arcane caster is almost entirely non synergistic. An eldritch knight buffs his fighting capabilities, and at level 10, can swift cast after a crit, allowing attacking and casting at the same time. The arcane trickster's rogue features boost their spell damage. These classes also sacrifice much less in caster level to qualify in the first place.
But a Mystic Theurge casts a divine spell or an arcane spell. It cannot do both simultaneously, and the abilities of one spell book do virtually nothing to enhance you ability to cast from the other spell book. On the contrary, by sacrificing at least 3 caster levels and likely splitting your casting stat, you are severely weakening your casting potential in either magic type to be able to do both, not at the same time, but simply with one character. Being able to alternate between being a mediocre wizard and very poor cleric or vice versa is far worse than just doing one job well all the time.
You have a terrible early game, a terrible midgame, and a mediocre late game as this class.
I tested with inevitable excess, and you can take a single level in one class, merge with the respective mythic path, and then take mystic theurge. So you could take Sorcerer 9, orcale 1, merge oracle with angel, and then take 10 levels of mystic theurge, finishing as a level 19 sorcerer and level 21 oracle (at mythic rank 10), or you could invert this with a lich playthrough. This solves the issues of splitting casting stats and having an atrocious early game, as you play a pure caster of 1 class to level 9. But the opportunity cost here is enormous. You could just play a pure angel oracle or a pure lich sorcerer, get access to level 9 mythic spells mid chapter 3, and have caster level 30+ endgame (which matters a lot for mythic spells, and allows 24 hour spells even for 1 round per level spells).
I would still say its the best way to go if you must play mystic theurge.
It's too bad spell sequencer isn't a thing anymore, Mystic Theurge would greatly benefit from it in addition to any caster wanting to lay out multiple spells in quick succession.
@@CrazyxEnigma Don't even mention how annoying it is finding spells in your spellbooks on a MT, especially if you start playing with metamagic.
Stalwart Defender : if the stance had a long duration, or lasted as long as you did not move (with maybe other penalties), it could be somewhat interesting (even then). But it only last a few rounds, making this class a sad sight. In Kingmaker, with Valerie, I took a one level dip. // Student of War was not in Kingmaker, as otherwise that dip would have been sooo much more fun.
I'm a retired man who has had no experience with D & D and became aware of and was interested in playing these types of games because I played Divinity Original Sin, The second version of Orion and Imperialism because of my dearly departed brother. The choices in this game are way beyond me and I'd like some help picking a character that will introduce me to some of the choices available without killing me every time. I play on average or the next hardest choice. Offensive melee and wizard type skills I understand but the pre fight buffs are beyond me and I need hand holding in this part as I'm unfamiliar with pre fight buffs. There is way too much information for me, I'm overwhelmed.
I'll try to drop a video about pre buff sometime this week.
@@SlanderedGaming Thanks very much I'm not used to this immediate reply.
Mystic Theurge is one of those classes that is always really tempting cause it sounds so cool but making it work is practically impossible. Getting 5 levels of wizard, say, and then spending the next 5 levels on cleric and being stuck at spell level 3 all the way through level 11 is just brutal. As part of a high level respec or Inevitable Excess build (especially for Legend) it can do some fun goofy stuff which is probably enough to justify your rating. It's just always kind of disappointing because it sounds /so awesome/ and then it's just so limited. Still I think everyone tries to make at least half a dozen Mystic Theurge builds.
If only spell sequencer was still a thing, Cleric/ Mage from BG2 could get pretty ridiculous it just took a little longer to come online.
@@CrazyxEnigma I mean bg2 might be the most broken magic system I've ever seen. Spell trigger, chain contingency, project image, time stop. You can if u wanted to drop a total of 120d8 damage in a single round. U can also shapchange into a mindflayer, timestop and pretty much instakill any enemy in shadows of amn with devour brain.
To help you take emp sorcerer up to spell level 2 and cleric to spell level 2. if you use it with acolyte background you can dump charisma and have persuasion still good and a powerful wisdom caster
I thought you only needed to cast level 2 spells though? So it's 3/3 Cleric/Wizard for example, 6 levels. Not too terrible.
@@matingly23 So in this scenario, at level 7 you get your first Mystic Theurge Level. If you were Wizard 7 you'd have 4th level spells. But instead you just have a bunch of 2nd level spells. And Wizard/Cleric is really poor synergy, you're wanting INT, WIS, and CHA for channeling, so basically you're limited to party buffing and spells with no saves. You can use Sorcerer archetypes to get your casting stats to line up, but then you lose an additional level of spell progression. It's always so close to working but it just doesn't really work. Merged spellbook kind of fixes this and makes it at least viable but it's still probably worse than just being a Wizard/Lich or Cleric/Angel.
Student of War seems like a much better class on the tabletop because it facilitates interesting roleplay; you can make an intelligence-focused martial. The class bonuses are nice, but the real purpose strikes me as like, being the guy that knows battlefield tactics and comes up with strategies while being able to fight very well. You're like, the Sokka of the team.
I suppose you CAN still play an intelligence-focused fighter with this, and that might be fun, but since this is a computer game and not an actual tabletop RPG where you can consistently use a higher intelligence as a defining trait and solution to problems it seems... More limited
Still, I could see it potentially being fun with Duelist. Mind over Metal replaces Dex to AC with Intelligence, and then Duelist applies Intelligence to AC as a dodge bonus... There's some potential there, considering that would give you a majority of skills as well. Probably not the most powerful choice even in the narrow field of exclusively martial characters, but certainly an unusual option.
Yeah SoW is not that interesting here but I can see the tabletop appeal.
I love your Videos so match, thank you!!!
My pleasure!
what I dislike about mystic theurge is that if you want to select it and go through it for all 10 levels, if you have a cleric or a class that does channel energy you won't get any extra dice for it for the MT levels, it took me till almost the end of the game to understand why my cleric wasn't doing more than 19 hp heal per channel positive energy
It's too bad Mystic Theurge doesn't have it's capstone ability from tabletop. At least with Angel, Lich or Legend it isn't a total gimp class as I really like the theme and flavor. The best thing is to either go Cleric/ Wizard and hope you get one of those circlets that boost Int and Wis or go Oracle/ Sorcerer, you're only reliant on Cha but you don't get as high of a caster level with spontaneous casting, tough choice.
I was working so hard to make a Student of War build but it being currently bugged really took the winds out of my sails
Yeah honestly I was surprised to see it still broken.
Sad to see that Stalward Defender is not that good. I like rolling my main character as a tank, which class(es) would you recommend?
Have you ever created pathfinder mercinaries that do better than story NPCs? Replacement mercs I call em. (Plus they come in handy during situations your story NPCs cant join)
In my current Angel run I simply couldn't live with a certain NPC and, after turning her in to the law, replaced her with LG(so Seelah can buff her with Bestow Grace) Shadow Shaman Chief Ageboya who has battle master, 7dc sneak, a mount at 16, all the base hexes that I want, the same spells, and chant. Sounds useful, does it not?
They can absolutely be better but I never use them because the party member stories are so engaging to me.
The urge? the urge for what. oh. 'theurge'. Theurge for mystics
😂
Mystic Theurge I always felt was the natural progression path for Tristian in Kingmaker, but I agree that it doesn't work as a main character prestige path.
Same with Stalwart Defender.
I would normally take either my Valerie or Harrim down that path, but heavy armor MC builds just aren't fun.
I know how that opening feels lol
I used to snap, clap or whoop in order to help me find sections to clip out during editing, but eventually the repetition of editing sets in, making it easier to forget to look for things like that, so now I use a key phrase instead, which I made weird enough that I haven't managed to leave it in since I started using it.
Obviously it doesn't pop out on the vocal graph, but knowing that I said it creates a sensory memory that reminds me to look for it.
It's doesn't help when it's like 2 a.m. and all you want to do is just put the damn video out and go to sleep. LOL
Oops left a bad take in? ;) 0:38
Unfortunately yes! *facepalm*
CPRG bro has a build that takes Mystic Theurge to full level 9 caster for both divine AND arcane.
I'm actually currently trying his build, but am not far enough along to say if it's good. All of his builds I've used in the past were good though, so I doubt it'll be a problem.
@@N0strapapas I love his builds. Most of mine are loosely based on his mechanics. Currently doing a vivisectionist-trickster-legend-demonslayer.
Nice I might have to check that out.
Mystic Theurge is fine with merged spellbooks in other games when it was implemented it was petty much ass... Now legend , Lich and Angel can all tinker with it in a way that allows you to reach level 9 spells and you might even have a chance to have the same caster stats for both halves. Oracle-sorcerer or cleric/druid-sage sorcerer are both appealing. Just don't go Int based. I liked mine and it didnt feel left behind as it did in other games but I see why many people say it's not for them. But just having this arseanal of spells is appealing to some. Me included... :D
I am glad the option is there but it's definitely not my style.
@@SlanderedGaming True. The thing is: I had to try it in THIS game because without mythic leves and mythic sellbooks this is definitely a pretty bad prestiege class. Even this way I wouldnt say it's anywhere near overpowered. so that is that :) At least Iplayed one to its potential.
With MT it really becomes a question of how badly do you want to free up a character slot for 5 non-wizard/cleric type characters. With all the nonsense you get at high levels plus mythics, it's not like your single-class mages are running out of good spell slots, so one of each should do better than two MTs. Might still be fun to Angel/Lich merge spellbook gimmick through the prereqs and run five martial or 4 plus bard, and have the MC be a buff bot.
Possibly but it just doesn't appeal to me.
@@SlanderedGaming The more I try to find use cases, the less interested I am. Saves and maxing are so important that Swiss army knife is just disappointing and sad. My gut tells me that MT is B tier at best, with a really harsh levels 1-12 or so, and not enough compensation for missing out on caster lvl 20. B tier with an unpleasant early-to-mid is rough. Basically sort of breaks even when you finally can cast lvl 3s in abundance, but man. Just take one of each. I tried to make it work in Kingmaker and it was sad and eventually got sort of ok. But lolol.
My mystic theurge only speaks in magic missile
I make Tristian a mystic theurge in king maker. I almost made Ember one but she works better as a full witch.
I gave her dragon disciple yesterday...she's a fucking nightmare to those demons
@@phantomvulpe791 i thought about it but it has so little use for a full caster loke her
@@moonlight2870 I only gave her 4 dips on it
I usually make her a Dirge Bard, she becomes an amazing support character at that point.
We kill Tristian. Every. Playthrough.
Do we know if they fix student of war?
you forgot a cut at the beginning :)
Yeah I noticed. *facepalm* 😂
how does mystic theurge with abundant casting btw? i never really went for it, do you get like 6 spell slots or just the normal + 3-4?
You get the normal amount, and trust me... It's way more than you could ever need lol given how the class works xD It was an interesting try with that class, but in the end it actually felt powerful rather than just chipping away at enemies.
Did you just gave up on editing or smth?
Eh, I wouldn't try to tank as a melee on unfair. I don't think you're going to reliably eat attacks form guys with high BAB and them hitting you 2x as hard. Also you're going to just leave Winter Witch alone to suck 1 more video out of us.....I respect the hustle
LOL I thought about forcing it in here but eh why not go one more round.
Slandered...you did a no no. If you're gonna do mystic theurge your casters need to have the same stats. Wis=wis sorcerer and cleric(preferably ecclesitheurge) Cha= Oracle, sorcerer, stigmatized witch. Intelligence has no use for this prestige class and I had a long discussion about this class how to work with this class with the community and they told me that must be the same stat of your caster for this prestige class to work
Its a bad class full stop, but if you have the same caster stat, unless you merge your mythic path spellbook, you cannot get level 9 spells at all. Any combination of casters that allows a shared casting stat will require at least 4 levels in one of the classes as it will be a spontaneous caster.
So if its sorc oracle, you will end up with either 16 sorc/14 oracle or vice versa. 1 level 8 spell for sorc on 1 7th level spell for oracle only. Best case is cleric/empyreal sorc, but that is 17 sorc/13 cleric (2 level 8 spells) or 16 cleric/14 sorc (still level 8 spells, on only 1 level 7 sorc spell).
Due to the extremely limited number of known spells for mystic theurge spontaneous casters and they fact that they rule out level 9 spells, they are a bad option. A 17 wizard/13 cleric or vice versa at least gets max level spells, and has some choice over which spells it casts on a given day. Obviously Angel or Lich mythic paths change things somewhat.
@@notalefty999 here is a build that gets full lvl 9 in both arcane and divine. th-cam.com/video/2ETJZ4195JQ/w-d-xo.html
@@kurtbrisch5776 I know you can merge mythic paths to do this (as alluded to in the last line of my post), but this is still far worse than the alternative of playing a pure class. You very significantly delay access to the most powerful spells and gimp your caster level (this matter for mythic spell damage a lot, dispel potential, and getting 24 hour round per level buffs), for the sake of 2nd spellbook that will cast at level 17 and lacks any mythic spells, and you have 2 spellcasting attributes. You also play the first 3rd of the game is a truly pathetic character. You also miss out on level 10 spells.
Stalwart Defender is useless. Tower Shield Specialist is better if you're going that way but still ugh.
Not really. +4 stacking AC, uncanny dodge and defensive stance are better than levels 11-20 in towershield specialist. Neither is a good option.
They are a lot of classes from neverwinter nights that were implemented into pathfinder. Frankly, they do not make sense having them here. For example Dragon disciple or Mystic Theurge a just a blunt copy from neverwinter and because of that their gameplay in this game sucks balls.
Just one problem with prestige classes: they only shine on a Legend
so uhh... Winter Witch getting it's own video?
2 part series I belieivd
Never played any of this classes. Donˋt think they are good.
They are not easy to use that is for sure.
Edit fail ...ok
*facepalm*
Student of war is such a forgettable class lol
Yup agreed.