This was the best interview you've done outside of some of the ones with folks like Angela's Symposium, Let's Talk Religion, Seekers of Unity, John Vervaeke, etc, really absolute top shelf stuff and I'm very very happy to have been able to be sat here for an hour and a half absorbing all of this and contemplating it. Really wonderful stuff!
The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Worldly credentials and degrees mean nothing in the service of God. What matters is if a person has wisdom and revelation from the Spirit of God. YHWH is the Most High God. There is none other. Jesus is YHWH. The Holy Bible is True. (John 14:6-9, John 17:17).
I grew up evangelical in the south of the US, and was evangelical until about 20 (I'm 33 now) and I still just can't shake my love for theology. I think I'd still like to practice some sort of Christian mystical tradition as well, but I'm still wrestling with the baggage of Christianity. Its like it stains a part of you and you can't wash it out. It's funny, I have no qualms with being an atheist and practicing Christian mysticism. It's my total disgust with evangelicals that is holding me back, not my disbelief in the Christian god.
@@_princeovpeace6512 I have no issue believing in the message of Christianity because I think it's mostly an extremely noble vision for humanity, but Christian cosmology and the Christian conception of a personal god is where I start to get a bad taste in my mouth.
I was wondering if these two would cross paths given their expertise and material they choose to cover on their respective channels. I am grateful to them both for delivering such wonderful content and hope they do another one of these! Dan, Justin, you are both amazing and I wish you the best!
The Esoterica video about monotheism in ancient Israel came out pretty soon after the Data/ Dogma episode about how there wasn't actually monotheism in ancient Israel. I wanted to leave a comment asking about it since from my layman perspective they're both trustworthy in their research skills and in their intellectual honesty and thought it would be fascinating to know why they came to different conclusions from the data but I thought it would be naive to think the explanation could fit a comment reply. When I saw that he was live with Dan and that they were talking exactly about that I almost screamed. Can't wait to watch this
Hearing Dan call Judah the “little brother” compared to the north makes me wonder if the common biblical motif of God choosing the younger over the firstborn represents a genuine cultural memory of Judah superseding Israel’s prominence
Probably not, as that's just a throwaway metaphor from the video. If anything the motif is used to explain why efraim is the more powerful and prosperous nation instead of the older siblings
I love all the content lately on the origins of Yahweh and the origins of monotheism. I've been fascinated about these topics ever since I first read the Early History of God.
I have stumbled across the history of the God of Abraham in my personal gazing on TH-cam, but I always take it with a grain of salt. This was an interesting video.
There are very few people who descent without deserting. It's hard to get a moderate like this to do the work then have people accept it but it's probably closer to the truth of why it is fundamentally important. Cognitive theology if I knew these things existed I would've stayed in education
I have followed you both individually for awhile. Thank you for this conversation. While I am not a scholar I am long time reader (of the book) first time poster. Thanks for this conversation that is a little higher on details and view. It helps my brain to remember the ways that were burned into me in my childhood are just stories of people trying cope. Thank you both very much.
Even just starting with early Sumer, each town had a mascot god that lived in their tallest temple, they would kidnap each other's god statues in war! Extra humiliation. If you wanted to be a big boy nation, build a big temple with a big god.
When you said 'big boy nation' all I could think about was the Bob's Big Boy statue from the old restaurant that kind of gained a god-like notoriety way back when. Our restaurants sometimes are those local temples to food & community. LOL
Near the end we touched on something that is about to becomes extremely present and prominent in all our lives. Religion as a tool for self improvement, vs religion as a tool for power (and superiority). As we know by now the US Republican Party has decided that Christian Nationalism is their path to power. It's my hope that you can use whatever power and reach you have to explicitly rebuke this. Otherwise, thank you as always for your stream of fine scholarly work. As a burgeoning philosopher your voice is a brilliant light in a very murky and confused field.
Fantastic discussion! I meant to tag this to watch later, but watched 5 minutes and all of a sudden I'd watched an hour. Love these kinds of minds meeting.
Great episode! It was so awesome to hear you and @maklelan tackle this topic. It is a discussion between you two that I had been curious to hear. You both handled it well and would love to see more content like this in the future.
Talking about monotheism as an us vs them label. The rabbis I learned from always said don't say Judaism is monotheistic we are not part of that group. Judaism is panantheistic and monotheism is merely a one idol system.
Holy crap. I was going through some of his back stuff and this came up. How have I not seen this? You rock, Dr Sledge! Edit: after watching, this was so good. The obvious comfort and camaraderie made it super enjoyable.
I would go further in saying that there is not only an interest in this kind of content, but a thirst for it. This was an excellent stream, and I look forward to more of this type of content.
The best understanding of monotheism comes from the SCOTUS. A "polytheist" sees executives in a corporate hierarchy. A "monotheist" sees the corporation as a person. Much love!
I've seen Dan on TH-cam before and I am going through the backlog of Data Over Dogma and for some reason never equated that they were the same person. Very smart stuff in both of those contents and I recommend both his TH-cam Content and podcast.
Incredible discussion, thank you for illuminating a topic that's almost taboo to unpick in some places. The bit about theological necromancy got me 🤯 it's so true! I've seen religious people pull that trick like they're drawing Exodia cards from their Yu-Gi-Oh! deck.
Also, the part where you're discussing the fact that monotheism really doesn't stand up well as a theory makes so much sense to me. It's the main reason I gave up on it many years ago, no one could provide logical explanations, or a back story, as it were, for how this all came to be. Thought processes have always led me back to the conclusion that, if theology is real, there can only be multiple forces at play to fulfil the different roles needed in the progression of the world and humanity's story. This may be one of the deepest and most important discussions on this channel. Which is saying A LOT 😂😂😂
I identify as an evangelical Christian. That being said, what I have believed to be absolute truth, was initiated by the collection of historical documents we call the Bible (actually Biblia meaning books. No rabbit hole here). I still maintain my faith, however, this is the first time I actually heard of and in the past 3 weeks dove into stories such as "Enuma Elish" and "Gilgamesh" and now for the first time tuning into ESOTERICA. I'm open-minded to hearing your scholarship to determine for myself if my faith has been on shaky ground or if it is academic overblown hyperbole and comparisons that make too much out of the similarities and don't mention the vast differences between ancient mythology vs biblical accounts. Is it more plagiarism? or more polemic? This is fascinating to learn and study. I'll keep coming back to learn. Thank you for your channel!
My impression from listening to critical biblical scholars is that the consensus is that the first creation story in the bible isn't a plagarism of the Babylonian creation myth, but more a response to it (amongst probably other rhetorical objectives.)
@@AMcAFaves Yes, that is what I've found as well. A polemic opposed to "incorporating" the myths into the Biblical account. I appreciate you confirming that with your findings.
Fascinating stuff, as always. Many thanks to the both of you, good doctors, for sharing your learning and your points of view. For what it's worth, I have never understood the self-imposed necessity for strict, unadulterated monotheism that so many people seem to require for their own peace of mind. What is wrong with a god who is both manifestly immanent and transcendent at the same time? What is wrong with God having intermediaries? One could always assert that he created them, and therefore, his "staff" doesn't have to pose any threat to his primacy. I agree with Dr. McClellan, when he said that the Xtian zealotry for strict monotheism is more about power than about literal loyalty to the Bible, since I can see no other reason why such a puritanical focus on divine singularity makes any sense. When you dig deeply enough into many seemingly polytheistic religions you find an underlying unified sense of the divine that essentially amounts to monotheism, so it seems to me that as long as humans live with religions we will always be drawn back to the concept of the one-supreme-deity. I have no problem with that. Honestly, the amount of rhetoric and bloodshed that seems to have been waged in the name of "whose-monotheism-is-the-mono-est" kind of strikes me as if people were arguing and warring over the color of the wallpaper... Is the game really worth the candle? Still, it's interesting to contemplate. All the best, N.
would it be possible to make a video about lucifer and satan being very different entities unrelated to each other? a few videos have popped up on the topic, but having an actual scholar on it i think it would be beneficial.
Let me just start by saying I absolutely loved this segment. Y'all briefly mentioned the exit of Yahweh worship as the proverbial war god/ storm God. I personally do not believe that worship ever ended. Two examples because everyone can relate to it, not to exclude Islam or Judea, but Christianity picked up the ball and ran with it. In reference to the Crusades and the Inquisition. In my humble opinion that was still the same rampaging deity, the church just slapped a new face on it in the image of the Christ, skewing and perverting everything that the Christ stood for. The addition of the Christ would be considered a Reformation, but the holy church reformed that Reformation back to the previous warfaring bloodlust of the very deity he spoke out against. I am by no means a scholar, rudimentary in knowledge at best, but I have been studying for close to 40 years I am forever a student and always craving knowledge
Incredible discussion! Lots of angles I never considered before, particularly that bit about monotheism as concept being hailed as a supreme value. I've never thought to challenge the rationale on why it has to be one god if any. I mean I've thrown out the idea polytheism as an immediate out so my view falls into a dichotomy of one vs none and it never occurred to me on visiting why it has to be one if it's none. Guess I need to brush up on what it's like to be a filthy pagan. Viewing the development of early israelite-judahite through their local political is also interesting. YHWH/Adonai becoming the supreme deity due to being the last one standing in the region after some elimination of deities makes me think of how Paul's teachings were what won out among early christianities due to them surviving as literature being passed around long after his own death and loss of control of his own churches. It also brings to mind how there was that one egyptian pharaoh that tried to push his own monotheistic beliefs over the rest to consolidate power and wealth under himself but failed to only for the next guy to bring things back to polytheism. If unity behind a faith can't be enforced with powerful backers then it's up to the means of propagation to survive long enough amongst the chaos.
Very interesting discussion, I am currently on my second listen. I wonder what you think of the idea that parts of Jeremiah are actually a rebuke of Josiah's reform/inquisition.
This was a good talk. Due to the nature of Dan's channel, it's rare to see him speculate on anything. That brief summary of ways that people tried to rationalize their assertion of a singular god was really interesting. We've seen some of that on this channel when looking at particular theologians. It's more fun to see it broadly laid out like that though. The reasoning process becomes very apparent and it's entirely self serving. It's all politics. Though I will say, generally when your logic problem requires an infinity, it most likely means that the problem itself is irrational. That it doesn't actually comport with anything in reality.
"Transcendence to Theophany Pipeline" I'm brazenly stealing this phrase. Now, if only we can perfect the Theophany to Transcendence Pipeline. That's where the money's at.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” curious about this line! was this pre or post the monotheistic “revision”
37:38 What you guys are discussing at this point in the video kinda parallels or proves something that I have held for a long time: history is not written by the victorious, as some people say; the people who write the histories will eventually become the victorious.
A item of difficulty I have with the comparison of the archaeological record to the documentation kept by a religious group is the biases from other cultures. How would a polytheists interpret the actions/ beliefs of a monotheistic culture/ deity? Would they not try to separate it into separate entities. Even the histories kept in by the Israelites is filled with the polytheististic influences as the scholars and prophets of the religion struggle to maintain the "one God" practice because the concept is just hard to grasp.
1:09:26 covers the question that interests me a lot. Recently I've been reading about Clement of Alexandria flipping Plato's anairesis (ascent). Where Plato had philosophers ascending to make contact with the Absolute, in Christianity Jesus qua the Absolute descended to all humans to make that contact, so he could still bring in all of the neo-Platonic architecture but with the basic mechanism of contact reworked. I've always thought the mechanism of contact for humans to the Absolute is the real key question that comes up again & again, and whatever else is in your system, that's the keystone that holds it all together, like Justin is talking about. Great discussion.
Yes. 1:09:30 is the key for me to enter into (as a bemused observer) this ridiculously arrogant speculation that Hashem told us not to do (do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of such things ("all things") which is reserved for Him)
37:55 "Judea is playing the role of the little brother here", hm, could that be connected to the fact that in the biblical narrative God repeatedly chooses younger brothers over the older ones?
A notable exception to the evangelical cheerleader approach: Dr Michael S. Heiser. This interview touched on and even echoed some of Heiser’s work on The Divine Council.
“Here’s a perhaps silly illustration of what I want a modern scholar in this field to convince me of. Let’s say we took one of the biblical writers and we told him he was going to view a line-up of _elohim_ (kind of like criminal line-ups where witnesses make an identification). Our writer sees YHWH, then one of the sons of God from Psalm 82, then a demon from Deut 32:17, then the spirit of his deceased grandma (a la 1 Sam 28:13), and (just for good measure) an angel. All of them were _elohim_ to the biblical writer. Now here’s the question we ask our witness: Would you agree that all those characters are the same? That is, do they all have the same powers or attributes, have the same spiritual status, are all equally deserving of worship? Sorry, unless our Israelite is a buffoon, the answer isn’t going to be yes. He’d think we were nuts. He is going to say YHWH is different and incomparable. Long-dead Grandma Rivka ain’t at the same level as any of the others, and Israelites knew it. She wasn’t the next YHWH or divine council “deity of the month” nominee. My point (again) is that it is nonsense to say that plural _elohim_ in the biblical writer’s worldview means polytheism. If you can’t prove to me the biblical writer would see all these _elohim_ as ontologically on par, or “worship interchangeable,” then you can’t prove to me that it’s really polytheism. If it’s true polytheism they’d all have an official cult and there would be no reason to deny them that cult. Again, I’m not going to commit the offense I’m criticizing and say all Israelites parsed this well or even cared. My point is that many could and did distinguish _elohim,_ understanding that “elohim” was a term applied to a range of very different entities that did not share a specific set of attributes. Since today we do equate “g-o-d” to certain attributes, we can’t seem to swallow this. But that’s too bad. We ought to, since the alternative is to impose our view on the ancients and then act like we can reconstruct their religious views. I don’t think so.” - “Dan McClellen's Response to Yours Truly, and My Rejoinder Points”. Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 24, 2011 | Divine council, Doctrine of God, NakedBible |
Interesting Talk learned a few things Thank You. Something I like to remind my self while I try and figure it out like every one else. Is that these beings in the end are incomprehensible to us. So we do our best and then we all fight over the Definitions and the Logic. What else can the ants talk about when discussing the Farmers? We can come to a perfect conclusion and Yahweh or who ever you believe is in the farmers group still will be what they will be. We can try to make sense of it and we probably should but they do not operate by the same rules as us. The restrictions we put on God are just words. A Person can drink coffee every day and then say I want Tea. The server can say but that's not your usual and it might matter. My point is the Contradictions are our problem to deal with among our selves in the limited way we understand it. In the end our understanding will still be limited and lead to conflict as 3D beings try to make 2D images of A Being or Beings that operate from a completely different perspective than us.
So fascinating! I had a realization a few months ago that the reason there are no atheists in foxholes, is because that’s where men create God/s. It sounds as if YHWH became more God-like when the Jews(?) or Hebrews(?) were experiencing the Babylonian exile. Hopefully I heard that correctly… If not…never mind! 😅
The elephant in the room for me is Persian Zoroastrianism. We have a messianic king of kings following a single good god. Before that, we have trash talk my god is better than your god. Afterward, we introduce ethics and metaphysics.
@@MrAlepedroza Look at the Behistun Inscription, which was created at the time of Darius, who was of the same dynasty. This clearly establishes worship of Ahura Mazda. If you look at Second Chronicles, Cyrus proclaims "All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me." From this, it seems reasonable to infer that YHWH was equated with Ahura Mazda.
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This was the best interview you've done outside of some of the ones with folks like Angela's Symposium, Let's Talk Religion, Seekers of Unity, John Vervaeke, etc, really absolute top shelf stuff and I'm very very happy to have been able to be sat here for an hour and a half absorbing all of this and contemplating it. Really wonderful stuff!
Oh my gosh! My favorite experts! You two have given me such a great insight into theology and religion better than any temple or church.
Fr I feel like I’ve learned more from this channel alone than I did my entire childhood growing up religious
The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Worldly credentials and degrees mean nothing in the service of God. What matters is if a person has wisdom and revelation from the Spirit of God. YHWH is the Most High God. There is none other. Jesus is YHWH. The Holy Bible is True. (John 14:6-9, John 17:17).
As it is written, “God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent”
@@evangelisticoutreach1 what if I believe in Jesus, but don’t think he is YHWH? Why can’t I just do that?
@evangelisticoutreach1 Thanks for sharing your superstition. It is not epistemically justified, however.
As an atheist this content feeds my soul in a historical, anthropological kind of way. Thank you for filling a hole that Mormonism destroyed for me.
I feel that bro! Grew up a jehovah’s witness and took the dark route out when I left the cult and went to esoterics
I grew up evangelical in the south of the US, and was evangelical until about 20 (I'm 33 now) and I still just can't shake my love for theology. I think I'd still like to practice some sort of Christian mystical tradition as well, but I'm still wrestling with the baggage of Christianity. Its like it stains a part of you and you can't wash it out. It's funny, I have no qualms with being an atheist and practicing Christian mysticism. It's my total disgust with evangelicals that is holding me back, not my disbelief in the Christian god.
@@_princeovpeace6512 I have no issue believing in the message of Christianity because I think it's mostly an extremely noble vision for humanity, but Christian cosmology and the Christian conception of a personal god is where I start to get a bad taste in my mouth.
@@_princeovpeace6512 check out spiritism
Dr. Sledge and Dr. McClellen on the same stream? It's not even my birthday.
Seriously, both of you guys are wonderful.
It IS my birthday in a couple of days and this was a joy!
@@Selene13zz
I too have an October Birthday.
Also, I'm guessing Dr Dan is "Brother McClean" as in being a fellow Mormon.
This has been one of my favorite interviews of 2024. Thanks so much to Dr. Sledge and Dr. McClellan.
I was wondering if these two would cross paths given their expertise and material they choose to cover on their respective channels. I am grateful to them both for delivering such wonderful content and hope they do another one of these! Dan, Justin, you are both amazing and I wish you the best!
The Esoterica video about monotheism in ancient Israel came out pretty soon after the Data/ Dogma episode about how there wasn't actually monotheism in ancient Israel. I wanted to leave a comment asking about it since from my layman perspective they're both trustworthy in their research skills and in their intellectual honesty and thought it would be fascinating to know why they came to different conclusions from the data but I thought it would be naive to think the explanation could fit a comment reply. When I saw that he was live with Dan and that they were talking exactly about that I almost screamed. Can't wait to watch this
Hearing Dan call Judah the “little brother” compared to the north makes me wonder if the common biblical motif of God choosing the younger over the firstborn represents a genuine cultural memory of Judah superseding Israel’s prominence
Interesting
I always loved that trope in the bible....I'm the youngest!
Or propaganda to justify it
@@oliviawilliams6204Justify? Assyria crushed the northern kingdom. That is what made Judah stronger than Israel/Samaria.
Probably not, as that's just a throwaway metaphor from the video. If anything the motif is used to explain why efraim is the more powerful and prosperous nation instead of the older siblings
Two of my favorite scholars together...like two great tastes that taste great together. A Reeses cup of theological discussion.
I love all the content lately on the origins of Yahweh and the origins of monotheism. I've been fascinated about these topics ever since I first read the Early History of God.
I have stumbled across the history of the God of Abraham in my personal gazing on TH-cam, but I always take it with a grain of salt. This was an interesting video.
There are very few people who descent without deserting. It's hard to get a moderate like this to do the work then have people accept it but it's probably closer to the truth of why it is fundamentally important. Cognitive theology if I knew these things existed I would've stayed in education
@@andrewbreding593 Yeah.
@@thirdcoastfirebirdYeah.
"The Spartans... they got their asses kicked!"
"Heroically! They got their asses kicked heroically."
lmao
The movie 300 in a nutshell.
The live stream was exceptional, covering a fascinating topic that illuminated the depths of mystical and spiritual knowledge in a captivating way.
Please, please, please do this again with another topic! Perhaps this becomes a regular, yet periodic, feature on the two channels? Thank you, both!
Two of my very favourites together !! This was such a treat made my day !! Thank you both for what you do :)
I have followed you both individually for awhile. Thank you for this conversation. While I am not a scholar I am long time reader (of the book) first time poster. Thanks for this conversation that is a little higher on details and view. It helps my brain to remember the ways that were burned into me in my childhood are just stories of people trying cope. Thank you both very much.
I'm going to have to watch this a few times, and still let it soak in. I hear the words, but my mind is kind of blown right now!
I love how you guys are drawing out the distinctions between judahite monolatry and monotheism.
It's such a breath of fresh air for this topic.
These two together would be the perfect recurring segment on this channel
Even just starting with early Sumer, each town had a mascot god that lived in their tallest temple, they would kidnap each other's god statues in war! Extra humiliation.
If you wanted to be a big boy nation, build a big temple with a big god.
When you said 'big boy nation' all I could think about was the Bob's Big Boy statue from the old restaurant that kind of gained a god-like notoriety way back when. Our restaurants sometimes are those local temples to food & community. LOL
@@Selene13zz I remember! The Elias Brothers got their start early around here. Metro-Detroit 😊
@@kaarlimakela3413 nice!
Ba'al's Big Boy
@@hive_indicator318 Exactly! 😂
Wow what a great discussion..thanks for sharing with us!
Near the end we touched on something that is about to becomes extremely present and prominent in all our lives. Religion as a tool for self improvement, vs religion as a tool for power (and superiority).
As we know by now the US Republican Party has decided that Christian Nationalism is their path to power. It's my hope that you can use whatever power and reach you have to explicitly rebuke this.
Otherwise, thank you as always for your stream of fine scholarly work. As a burgeoning philosopher your voice is a brilliant light in a very murky and confused field.
Reunited and it feels so good! A deep pull.
Dangit! I wish I had known that you two were going to do a live collaboration!
Ikr? Just missed it!
Fantastic discussion! I meant to tag this to watch later, but watched 5 minutes and all of a sudden I'd watched an hour. Love these kinds of minds meeting.
OMG MY TWO FAVES!!!! Let’s gooo!!!
Love you both and what a surprise to find you both here, together!!!❤❤❤
Great to hear you both discuss this! Thank you!
Really appreciated this conversation. Looking forward to hearing more from Dan.
I was so excited to see both of your faces!! I grabbed my popcorn instantly! I've learned so much from both of you. Please do more videos together 🙏
Oh snap! Dan McClellan is my favorite bible guy!
Epic crossover, love both your work
Great episode! It was so awesome to hear you and @maklelan tackle this topic. It is a discussion between you two that I had been curious to hear. You both handled it well and would love to see more content like this in the future.
Talking about monotheism as an us vs them label. The rabbis I learned from always said don't say Judaism is monotheistic we are not part of that group. Judaism is panantheistic and monotheism is merely a one idol system.
Holy crap. I was going through some of his back stuff and this came up. How have I not seen this? You rock, Dr Sledge!
Edit: after watching, this was so good. The obvious comfort and camaraderie made it super enjoyable.
What a fantastic conversation!
This is great! I hope they both do further videos together.
Very good discussion! Thank you both!
I learned very much from this talk - a deep thank you!
I would go further in saying that there is not only an interest in this kind of content, but a thirst for it. This was an excellent stream, and I look forward to more of this type of content.
The best understanding of monotheism comes from the SCOTUS. A "polytheist" sees executives in a corporate hierarchy. A "monotheist" sees the corporation as a person. Much love!
Both have gash mereologies
@@TheEsotericaChannel A Modus Vivendi even!
Great live stream!!! 💯🙏🏽
Great discussion, very interesting and informative!
Two of my favorites ❤
I've seen Dan on TH-cam before and I am going through the backlog of Data Over Dogma and for some reason never equated that they were the same person. Very smart stuff in both of those contents and I recommend both his TH-cam Content and podcast.
You guys are great. More please!
Incredible discussion, thank you for illuminating a topic that's almost taboo to unpick in some places. The bit about theological necromancy got me 🤯 it's so true! I've seen religious people pull that trick like they're drawing Exodia cards from their Yu-Gi-Oh! deck.
Also, the part where you're discussing the fact that monotheism really doesn't stand up well as a theory makes so much sense to me. It's the main reason I gave up on it many years ago, no one could provide logical explanations, or a back story, as it were, for how this all came to be. Thought processes have always led me back to the conclusion that, if theology is real, there can only be multiple forces at play to fulfil the different roles needed in the progression of the world and humanity's story. This may be one of the deepest and most important discussions on this channel. Which is saying A LOT 😂😂😂
Great video! Would love to see Joel Baden on next!
I MISSED THIS LIVESTREAM!! I’m so mad!
I identify as an evangelical Christian. That being said, what I have believed to be absolute truth, was initiated by the collection of historical documents we call the Bible (actually Biblia meaning books. No rabbit hole here). I still maintain my faith, however, this is the first time I actually heard of and in the past 3 weeks dove into stories such as "Enuma Elish" and "Gilgamesh" and now for the first time tuning into ESOTERICA. I'm open-minded to hearing your scholarship to determine for myself if my faith has been on shaky ground or if it is academic overblown hyperbole and comparisons that make too much out of the similarities and don't mention the vast differences between ancient mythology vs biblical accounts. Is it more plagiarism? or more polemic? This is fascinating to learn and study. I'll keep coming back to learn. Thank you for your channel!
My impression from listening to critical biblical scholars is that the consensus is that the first creation story in the bible isn't a plagarism of the Babylonian creation myth, but more a response to it (amongst probably other rhetorical objectives.)
@@AMcAFaves Yes, that is what I've found as well. A polemic opposed to "incorporating" the myths into the Biblical account. I appreciate you confirming that with your findings.
Hey Herriman UT, shout out from South Jordan!
Fascinating stuff, as always. Many thanks to the both of you, good doctors, for sharing your learning and your points of view.
For what it's worth, I have never understood the self-imposed necessity for strict, unadulterated monotheism that so many people seem to require for their own peace of mind. What is wrong with a god who is both manifestly immanent and transcendent at the same time? What is wrong with God having intermediaries? One could always assert that he created them, and therefore, his "staff" doesn't have to pose any threat to his primacy. I agree with Dr. McClellan, when he said that the Xtian zealotry for strict monotheism is more about power than about literal loyalty to the Bible, since I can see no other reason why such a puritanical focus on divine singularity makes any sense.
When you dig deeply enough into many seemingly polytheistic religions you find an underlying unified sense of the divine that essentially amounts to monotheism, so it seems to me that as long as humans live with religions we will always be drawn back to the concept of the one-supreme-deity. I have no problem with that. Honestly, the amount of rhetoric and bloodshed that seems to have been waged in the name of "whose-monotheism-is-the-mono-est" kind of strikes me as if people were arguing and warring over the color of the wallpaper... Is the game really worth the candle? Still, it's interesting to contemplate.
All the best, N.
Great Conversation!
would it be possible to make a video about lucifer and satan being very different entities unrelated to each other? a few videos have popped up on the topic, but having an actual scholar on it i think it would be beneficial.
This was fascinating. Most if it went waaaaaaaaay over my head, but I remain deeply intrigued by this kind of scholarship.
The two best academic on TH-cam
Thanks!
Thank you!
great discussion
This was wonderful. These "two doctor convos" are great. Dr Dan u got my sub! Can't wait to check out ur content.
Two of my favorites :)
Finally 🙌
Let me just start by saying I absolutely loved this segment.
Y'all briefly mentioned the exit of Yahweh worship as the proverbial war god/ storm God. I personally do not believe that worship ever ended.
Two examples because everyone can relate to it, not to exclude Islam or Judea, but Christianity picked up the ball and ran with it.
In reference to the Crusades and the Inquisition.
In my humble opinion that was still the same rampaging deity, the church just slapped a new face on it in the image of the Christ, skewing and perverting everything that the Christ stood for.
The addition of the Christ would be considered a Reformation, but the holy church reformed that Reformation back to the previous warfaring bloodlust of the very deity he spoke out against.
I am by no means a scholar, rudimentary in knowledge at best, but I have been studying for close to 40 years I am forever a student and always craving knowledge
I love when you have these conversations as I always find someone new to follow.
"Theological Necromancy" That term goes so hard, I love it.
i had the same experience as a youngster reading the bible but nobody could explained me why they were talking about gods in plural
Dr. J needs to jump on the Data>Dogma podcaat so we can all have a live cocktail party. 🖖
45:53 wow my Raiders catch a stray to the forehead out of nowhere haha 😭🤣. Nonetheless, Love the vid 🫶🏽
Took me a while to realise he said he lives in Herriman, Utah and not “a harem in Utah”
Incredible discussion! Lots of angles I never considered before, particularly that bit about monotheism as concept being hailed as a supreme value. I've never thought to challenge the rationale on why it has to be one god if any. I mean I've thrown out the idea polytheism as an immediate out so my view falls into a dichotomy of one vs none and it never occurred to me on visiting why it has to be one if it's none. Guess I need to brush up on what it's like to be a filthy pagan.
Viewing the development of early israelite-judahite through their local political is also interesting. YHWH/Adonai becoming the supreme deity due to being the last one standing in the region after some elimination of deities makes me think of how Paul's teachings were what won out among early christianities due to them surviving as literature being passed around long after his own death and loss of control of his own churches. It also brings to mind how there was that one egyptian pharaoh that tried to push his own monotheistic beliefs over the rest to consolidate power and wealth under himself but failed to only for the next guy to bring things back to polytheism. If unity behind a faith can't be enforced with powerful backers then it's up to the means of propagation to survive long enough amongst the chaos.
Very interesting discussion, I am currently on my second listen. I wonder what you think of the idea that parts of Jeremiah are actually a rebuke of Josiah's reform/inquisition.
Theological Necromancy - another good band name 🤘
I follow both of your channels, it was great you had this conversation, thank you.
This was a good talk. Due to the nature of Dan's channel, it's rare to see him speculate on anything.
That brief summary of ways that people tried to rationalize their assertion of a singular god was really interesting. We've seen some of that on this channel when looking at particular theologians. It's more fun to see it broadly laid out like that though. The reasoning process becomes very apparent and it's entirely self serving. It's all politics.
Though I will say, generally when your logic problem requires an infinity, it most likely means that the problem itself is irrational. That it doesn't actually comport with anything in reality.
"Transcendence to Theophany Pipeline"
I'm brazenly stealing this phrase.
Now, if only we can perfect the Theophany to Transcendence Pipeline. That's where the money's at.
I hope you continue to speak about monotheism and maybe talk about the Islamic Allah? Thanks 😊
"Last god standing"!
Dan the Man!
1:23:41 I love Justin’s “חס ושלום” here.
The deep lore thickens... excellent 😁
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” curious about this line! was this pre or post the monotheistic “revision”
Yahweh fighting by prison rules is an image I'll always treasure!
Nice combo!!
37:38 What you guys are discussing at this point in the video kinda parallels or proves something that I have held for a long time: history is not written by the victorious, as some people say; the people who write the histories will eventually become the victorious.
Maybe I missed it but was God an Anatomy mentioned? That was a really interesting book that was laid out in a clever way.
A item of difficulty I have with the comparison of the archaeological record to the documentation kept by a religious group is the biases from other cultures. How would a polytheists interpret the actions/ beliefs of a monotheistic culture/ deity? Would they not try to separate it into separate entities. Even the histories kept in by the Israelites is filled with the polytheististic influences as the scholars and prophets of the religion struggle to maintain the "one God" practice because the concept is just hard to grasp.
1:09:26 covers the question that interests me a lot. Recently I've been reading about Clement of Alexandria flipping Plato's anairesis (ascent). Where Plato had philosophers ascending to make contact with the Absolute, in Christianity Jesus qua the Absolute descended to all humans to make that contact, so he could still bring in all of the neo-Platonic architecture but with the basic mechanism of contact reworked. I've always thought the mechanism of contact for humans to the Absolute is the real key question that comes up again & again, and whatever else is in your system, that's the keystone that holds it all together, like Justin is talking about. Great discussion.
Yes. 1:09:30 is the key for me to enter into (as a bemused observer) this ridiculously arrogant speculation that Hashem told us not to do (do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of such things ("all things") which is reserved for Him)
37:55 "Judea is playing the role of the little brother here", hm, could that be connected to the fact that in the biblical narrative God repeatedly chooses younger brothers over the older ones?
Definitely a coincidence ;)
One of the best episodes if I didn't watch the parts you fast forwarded live though I'd be a bit upset about it being hard to hear
A notable exception to the evangelical cheerleader approach: Dr Michael S. Heiser. This interview touched on and even echoed some of Heiser’s work on The Divine Council.
“Here’s a perhaps silly illustration of what I want a modern scholar in this field to convince me of. Let’s say we took one of the biblical writers and we told him he was going to view a line-up of _elohim_ (kind of like criminal line-ups where witnesses make an identification). Our writer sees YHWH, then one of the sons of God from Psalm 82, then a demon from Deut 32:17, then the spirit of his deceased grandma (a la 1 Sam 28:13), and (just for good measure) an angel. All of them were _elohim_ to the biblical writer. Now here’s the question we ask our witness: Would you agree that all those characters are the same? That is, do they all have the same powers or attributes, have the same spiritual status, are all equally deserving of worship?
Sorry, unless our Israelite is a buffoon, the answer isn’t going to be yes. He’d think we were nuts. He is going to say YHWH is different and incomparable. Long-dead Grandma Rivka ain’t at the same level as any of the others, and Israelites knew it. She wasn’t the next YHWH or divine council “deity of the month” nominee.
My point (again) is that it is nonsense to say that plural _elohim_ in the biblical writer’s worldview means polytheism. If you can’t prove to me the biblical writer would see all these _elohim_ as ontologically on par, or “worship interchangeable,” then you can’t prove to me that it’s really polytheism. If it’s true polytheism they’d all have an official cult and there would be no reason to deny them that cult. Again, I’m not going to commit the offense I’m criticizing and say all Israelites parsed this well or even cared. My point is that many could and did distinguish _elohim,_ understanding that “elohim” was a term applied to a range of very different entities that did not share a specific set of attributes. Since today we do equate “g-o-d” to certain attributes, we can’t seem to swallow this. But that’s too bad. We ought to, since the alternative is to impose our view on the ancients and then act like we can reconstruct their religious views. I don’t think so.”
- “Dan McClellen's Response to Yours Truly, and My Rejoinder Points”. Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 24, 2011 | Divine council, Doctrine of God, NakedBible |
Can you post the link for the Biblical Hebrew class?
Interesting Talk learned a few things Thank You. Something I like to remind my self while I try and figure it out like every one else. Is that these beings in the end are incomprehensible to us. So we do our best and then we all fight over the Definitions and the Logic. What else can the ants talk about when discussing the Farmers? We can come to a perfect conclusion and Yahweh or who ever you believe is in the farmers group still will be what they will be. We can try to make sense of it and we probably should but they do not operate by the same rules as us. The restrictions we put on God are just words. A Person can drink coffee every day and then say I want Tea. The server can say but that's not your usual and it might matter. My point is the Contradictions are our problem to deal with among our selves in the limited way we understand it. In the end our understanding will still be limited and lead to conflict as 3D beings try to make 2D images of A Being or Beings that operate from a completely different perspective than us.
Min 56:53 yay! Not nearly enough shout outs in forums like these to cognitive linguistics!! YAY!! ❤
Theological Necromancy is the HARDEST OF HARDCORE SENTENCES EVER.
So fascinating! I had a realization a few months ago that the reason there are no atheists in foxholes, is because that’s where men create God/s.
It sounds as if YHWH became more God-like when the Jews(?) or Hebrews(?) were experiencing the Babylonian exile.
Hopefully I heard that correctly…
If not…never mind! 😅
Awesome content! Thank you 😊
The elephant in the room for me is Persian Zoroastrianism. We have a messianic king of kings following a single good god. Before that, we have trash talk my god is better than your god. Afterward, we introduce ethics and metaphysics.
Zoroastrianism was not monotheistic during the Persian rule of Judea, its messianic ideas and exclussivism developping along several centuries.
@@MrAlepedroza Look at the Behistun Inscription, which was created at the time of Darius, who was of the same dynasty. This clearly establishes worship of Ahura Mazda. If you look at Second Chronicles, Cyrus proclaims "All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me." From this, it seems reasonable to infer that YHWH was equated with Ahura Mazda.
Dan, you didn't announce your T-shirt fit for this live stream!
Ducktales! (Awwwooooo-Ooo!)
I like the idea of religious hype people. St. Flavor of Flav decreed, “Yeah boy! There ain’t no other gods! Who’s running the show? G.O.D!”
Was the KJB put together in a way where monotheism was injected into it?