This was the best interview you've done outside of some of the ones with folks like Angela's Symposium, Let's Talk Religion, Seekers of Unity, John Vervaeke, etc, really absolute top shelf stuff and I'm very very happy to have been able to be sat here for an hour and a half absorbing all of this and contemplating it. Really wonderful stuff!
The Esoterica video about monotheism in ancient Israel came out pretty soon after the Data/ Dogma episode about how there wasn't actually monotheism in ancient Israel. I wanted to leave a comment asking about it since from my layman perspective they're both trustworthy in their research skills and in their intellectual honesty and thought it would be fascinating to know why they came to different conclusions from the data but I thought it would be naive to think the explanation could fit a comment reply. When I saw that he was live with Dan and that they were talking exactly about that I almost screamed. Can't wait to watch this
Even just starting with early Sumer, each town had a mascot god that lived in their tallest temple, they would kidnap each other's god statues in war! Extra humiliation. If you wanted to be a big boy nation, build a big temple with a big god.
When you said 'big boy nation' all I could think about was the Bob's Big Boy statue from the old restaurant that kind of gained a god-like notoriety way back when. Our restaurants sometimes are those local temples to food & community. LOL
The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Worldly credentials and degrees mean nothing in the service of God. What matters is if a person has wisdom and revelation from the Spirit of God. YHWH is the Most High God. There is none other. Jesus is YHWH. The Holy Bible is True. (John 14:6-9, John 17:17).
I grew up evangelical in the south of the US, and was evangelical until about 20 (I'm 33 now) and I still just can't shake my love for theology. I think I'd still like to practice some sort of Christian mystical tradition as well, but I'm still wrestling with the baggage of Christianity. Its like it stains a part of you and you can't wash it out. It's funny, I have no qualms with being an atheist and practicing Christian mysticism. It's my total disgust with evangelicals that is holding me back, not my disbelief in the Christian god.
@@_princeovpeace6512 I have no issue believing in the message of Christianity because I think it's mostly an extremely noble vision for humanity, but Christian cosmology and the Christian conception of a personal god is where I start to get a bad taste in my mouth.
Hearing Dan call Judah the “little brother” compared to the north makes me wonder if the common biblical motif of God choosing the younger over the firstborn represents a genuine cultural memory of Judah superseding Israel’s prominence
Probably not, as that's just a throwaway metaphor from the video. If anything the motif is used to explain why efraim is the more powerful and prosperous nation instead of the older siblings
I have stumbled across the history of the God of Abraham in my personal gazing on TH-cam, but I always take it with a grain of salt. This was an interesting video.
There are very few people who descent without deserting. It's hard to get a moderate like this to do the work then have people accept it but it's probably closer to the truth of why it is fundamentally important. Cognitive theology if I knew these things existed I would've stayed in education
Talking about monotheism as an us vs them label. The rabbis I learned from always said don't say Judaism is monotheistic we are not part of that group. Judaism is panantheistic and monotheism is merely a one idol system.
would it be possible to make a video about lucifer and satan being very different entities unrelated to each other? a few videos have popped up on the topic, but having an actual scholar on it i think it would be beneficial.
I was wondering if these two would cross paths given their expertise and material they choose to cover on their respective channels. I am grateful to them both for delivering such wonderful content and hope they do another one of these! Dan, Justin, you are both amazing and I wish you the best!
I love all the content lately on the origins of Yahweh and the origins of monotheism. I've been fascinated about these topics ever since I first read the Early History of God.
Near the end we touched on something that is about to becomes extremely present and prominent in all our lives. Religion as a tool for self improvement, vs religion as a tool for power (and superiority). As we know by now the US Republican Party has decided that Christian Nationalism is their path to power. It's my hope that you can use whatever power and reach you have to explicitly rebuke this. Otherwise, thank you as always for your stream of fine scholarly work. As a burgeoning philosopher your voice is a brilliant light in a very murky and confused field.
37:55 "Judea is playing the role of the little brother here", hm, could that be connected to the fact that in the biblical narrative God repeatedly chooses younger brothers over the older ones?
Both guys are religious and believe in God? How can you fit the round pin in the square hole when they have a conversation like this? So what is even religion/religious?(I'm an atheist by the way, deeply fascinated by the origins of religion and metaphysic worldview of us humans)
37:38 What you guys are discussing at this point in the video kinda parallels or proves something that I have held for a long time: history is not written by the victorious, as some people say; the people who write the histories will eventually become the victorious.
it doesn't speak DIRECTLY to the origins of yhwh, but there's this really interesting lecture David Ilan gave to the Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures(nee Oriental Institute) about 5 years ago that's still on their youtube channel where he discusses the archaeological evidence of that time for where the polity "israel" came from that might speak to how and where "yhwh" came to be. it's called "How Ancient Israel Began: A New Archaeological Perspective."
So fascinating! I had a realization a few months ago that the reason there are no atheists in foxholes, is because that’s where men create God/s. It sounds as if YHWH became more God-like when the Jews(?) or Hebrews(?) were experiencing the Babylonian exile. Hopefully I heard that correctly… If not…never mind! 😅
Let me just start by saying I absolutely loved this segment. Y'all briefly mentioned the exit of Yahweh worship as the proverbial war god/ storm God. I personally do not believe that worship ever ended. Two examples because everyone can relate to it, not to exclude Islam or Judea, but Christianity picked up the ball and ran with it. In reference to the Crusades and the Inquisition. In my humble opinion that was still the same rampaging deity, the church just slapped a new face on it in the image of the Christ, skewing and perverting everything that the Christ stood for. The addition of the Christ would be considered a Reformation, but the holy church reformed that Reformation back to the previous warfaring bloodlust of the very deity he spoke out against. I am by no means a scholar, rudimentary in knowledge at best, but I have been studying for close to 40 years I am forever a student and always craving knowledge
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” curious about this line! was this pre or post the monotheistic “revision”
The filling of the infinite gap of a theistic singularity with a multiplicity of beings is echoed in the cosmological singularity of “creation” ex nihilo. With what material did this deity create if its self is the only substance? Where did this being place this substance which was not occupied by its self? Etc etc
I identify as an evangelical Christian. That being said, what I have believed to be absolute truth, was initiated by the collection of historical documents we call the Bible (actually Biblia meaning books. No rabbit hole here). I still maintain my faith, however, this is the first time I actually heard of and in the past 3 weeks dove into stories such as "Enuma Elish" and "Gilgamesh" and now for the first time tuning into ESOTERICA. I'm open-minded to hearing your scholarship to determine for myself if my faith has been on shaky ground or if it is academic overblown hyperbole and comparisons that make too much out of the similarities and don't mention the vast differences between ancient mythology vs biblical accounts. Is it more plagiarism? or more polemic? This is fascinating to learn and study. I'll keep coming back to learn. Thank you for your channel!
My impression from listening to critical biblical scholars is that the consensus is that the first creation story in the bible isn't a plagarism of the Babylonian creation myth, but more a response to it (amongst probably other rhetorical objectives.)
Hey, if moral realism is true, and the one god is responsible for all that is as the uncreated ground of being, then the one god is responsible for ethics.
First of: WOW! Super cool stuff. A good representation of the historical god! And it's not a glorious story! That's food for thought. But what's niggling at me the whole time, what shimmers through: de social political process that lead to these two kingdoms. A confederation of rebellious Kanaanite non-elites, semitic tribes, mixed in a ton of Egyptian and older Babylonian stuff. How did that story go in reality? Cause it's them that tell the Biblical story, redacting it etc.
Fascinating stuff, as always. Many thanks to the both of you, good doctors, for sharing your learning and your points of view. For what it's worth, I have never understood the self-imposed necessity for strict, unadulterated monotheism that so many people seem to require for their own peace of mind. What is wrong with a god who is both manifestly immanent and transcendent at the same time? What is wrong with God having intermediaries? One could always assert that he created them, and therefore, his "staff" doesn't have to pose any threat to his primacy. I agree with Dr. McClellan, when he said that the Xtian zealotry for strict monotheism is more about power than about literal loyalty to the Bible, since I can see no other reason why such a puritanical focus on divine singularity makes any sense. When you dig deeply enough into many seemingly polytheistic religions you find an underlying unified sense of the divine that essentially amounts to monotheism, so it seems to me that as long as humans live with religions we will always be drawn back to the concept of the one-supreme-deity. I have no problem with that. Honestly, the amount of rhetoric and bloodshed that seems to have been waged in the name of "whose-monotheism-is-the-mono-est" kind of strikes me as if people were arguing and warring over the color of the wallpaper... Is the game really worth the candle? Still, it's interesting to contemplate. All the best, N.
Interesting Talk learned a few things Thank You. Something I like to remind my self while I try and figure it out like every one else. Is that these beings in the end are incomprehensible to us. So we do our best and then we all fight over the Definitions and the Logic. What else can the ants talk about when discussing the Farmers? We can come to a perfect conclusion and Yahweh or who ever you believe is in the farmers group still will be what they will be. We can try to make sense of it and we probably should but they do not operate by the same rules as us. The restrictions we put on God are just words. A Person can drink coffee every day and then say I want Tea. The server can say but that's not your usual and it might matter. My point is the Contradictions are our problem to deal with among our selves in the limited way we understand it. In the end our understanding will still be limited and lead to conflict as 3D beings try to make 2D images of A Being or Beings that operate from a completely different perspective than us.
I have followed you both individually for awhile. Thank you for this conversation. While I am not a scholar I am long time reader (of the book) first time poster. Thanks for this conversation that is a little higher on details and view. It helps my brain to remember the ways that were burned into me in my childhood are just stories of people trying cope. Thank you both very much.
Very interesting discussion, I am currently on my second listen. I wonder what you think of the idea that parts of Jeremiah are actually a rebuke of Josiah's reform/inquisition.
The elephant in the room for me is Persian Zoroastrianism. We have a messianic king of kings following a single good god. Before that, we have trash talk my god is better than your god. Afterward, we introduce ethics and metaphysics.
@@MrAlepedroza Look at the Behistun Inscription, which was created at the time of Darius, who was of the same dynasty. This clearly establishes worship of Ahura Mazda. If you look at Second Chronicles, Cyrus proclaims "All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me." From this, it seems reasonable to infer that YHWH was equated with Ahura Mazda.
Incredible discussion! Lots of angles I never considered before, particularly that bit about monotheism as concept being hailed as a supreme value. I've never thought to challenge the rationale on why it has to be one god if any. I mean I've thrown out the idea polytheism as an immediate out so my view falls into a dichotomy of one vs none and it never occurred to me on visiting why it has to be one if it's none. Guess I need to brush up on what it's like to be a filthy pagan. Viewing the development of early israelite-judahite through their local political is also interesting. YHWH/Adonai becoming the supreme deity due to being the last one standing in the region after some elimination of deities makes me think of how Paul's teachings were what won out among early christianities due to them surviving as literature being passed around long after his own death and loss of control of his own churches. It also brings to mind how there was that one egyptian pharaoh that tried to push his own monotheistic beliefs over the rest to consolidate power and wealth under himself but failed to only for the next guy to bring things back to polytheism. If unity behind a faith can't be enforced with powerful backers then it's up to the means of propagation to survive long enough amongst the chaos.
Fantastic discussion! I meant to tag this to watch later, but watched 5 minutes and all of a sudden I'd watched an hour. Love these kinds of minds meeting.
A item of difficulty I have with the comparison of the archaeological record to the documentation kept by a religious group is the biases from other cultures. How would a polytheists interpret the actions/ beliefs of a monotheistic culture/ deity? Would they not try to separate it into separate entities. Even the histories kept in by the Israelites is filled with the polytheististic influences as the scholars and prophets of the religion struggle to maintain the "one God" practice because the concept is just hard to grasp.
The appearance of Yahweh Katan such as Metatron and even Jesus during the Hellenistic and Roman periods implies to me a resurgence of "polytheism". Could it be an indication that the centralization of Adonai as a deity had gone too far and practitioners needed more accessible representation and less abstraction?
I've seen Dan on TH-cam before and I am going through the backlog of Data Over Dogma and for some reason never equated that they were the same person. Very smart stuff in both of those contents and I recommend both his TH-cam Content and podcast.
Incredible discussion, thank you for illuminating a topic that's almost taboo to unpick in some places. The bit about theological necromancy got me 🤯 it's so true! I've seen religious people pull that trick like they're drawing Exodia cards from their Yu-Gi-Oh! deck.
Also, the part where you're discussing the fact that monotheism really doesn't stand up well as a theory makes so much sense to me. It's the main reason I gave up on it many years ago, no one could provide logical explanations, or a back story, as it were, for how this all came to be. Thought processes have always led me back to the conclusion that, if theology is real, there can only be multiple forces at play to fulfil the different roles needed in the progression of the world and humanity's story. This may be one of the deepest and most important discussions on this channel. Which is saying A LOT 😂😂😂
1:09:26 covers the question that interests me a lot. Recently I've been reading about Clement of Alexandria flipping Plato's anairesis (ascent). Where Plato had philosophers ascending to make contact with the Absolute, in Christianity Jesus qua the Absolute descended to all humans to make that contact, so he could still bring in all of the neo-Platonic architecture but with the basic mechanism of contact reworked. I've always thought the mechanism of contact for humans to the Absolute is the real key question that comes up again & again, and whatever else is in your system, that's the keystone that holds it all together, like Justin is talking about. Great discussion.
Yes. 1:09:30 is the key for me to enter into (as a bemused observer) this ridiculously arrogant speculation that Hashem told us not to do (do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of such things ("all things") which is reserved for Him)
Great episode! It was so awesome to hear you and @maklelan tackle this topic. It is a discussion between you two that I had been curious to hear. You both handled it well and would love to see more content like this in the future.
The fallen one's having chosen their land on earth then went to govern the native peoples of that region...they went by never alone, up to ten maximum they did go, by the reason of their original treachery in the other realm they did turn on themselves, to war they went with their earthly servants(slaves), by the time many of the worlds religious scripts were recorded there is a memory and last of the epic wars between the fallen one's, it seems there are at least two or three still waring here.
I would go further in saying that there is not only an interest in this kind of content, but a thirst for it. This was an excellent stream, and I look forward to more of this type of content.
Consider Supporting Esoterica!
Patreon - www.patreon.com/esotericachannel
Merch - th-cam.com/channels/oydhtfFSk1fZXNRnkGnneQ.htmlstore
New to Studying Esotericism? Check out my Reading Guide here - docs.google.com/document/d/1caKNlW7sogEF7lAeYNbOQF9pt5O5b70yAXa-icUJO3o/edit?usp=sharing
Rare Occult Books - www.esotericaoccultbooks.com/
This was the best interview you've done outside of some of the ones with folks like Angela's Symposium, Let's Talk Religion, Seekers of Unity, John Vervaeke, etc, really absolute top shelf stuff and I'm very very happy to have been able to be sat here for an hour and a half absorbing all of this and contemplating it. Really wonderful stuff!
"The Spartans... they got their asses kicked!"
"Heroically! They got their asses kicked heroically."
lmao
The movie 300 in a nutshell.
The Esoterica video about monotheism in ancient Israel came out pretty soon after the Data/ Dogma episode about how there wasn't actually monotheism in ancient Israel. I wanted to leave a comment asking about it since from my layman perspective they're both trustworthy in their research skills and in their intellectual honesty and thought it would be fascinating to know why they came to different conclusions from the data but I thought it would be naive to think the explanation could fit a comment reply. When I saw that he was live with Dan and that they were talking exactly about that I almost screamed. Can't wait to watch this
Dr. Sledge and Dr. McClellen on the same stream? It's not even my birthday.
Seriously, both of you guys are wonderful.
It IS my birthday in a couple of days and this was a joy!
Even just starting with early Sumer, each town had a mascot god that lived in their tallest temple, they would kidnap each other's god statues in war! Extra humiliation.
If you wanted to be a big boy nation, build a big temple with a big god.
When you said 'big boy nation' all I could think about was the Bob's Big Boy statue from the old restaurant that kind of gained a god-like notoriety way back when. Our restaurants sometimes are those local temples to food & community. LOL
@@Selene13zz I remember! The Elias Brothers got their start early around here. Metro-Detroit 😊
@@kaarlimakela3413 nice!
Oh my gosh! My favorite experts! You two have given me such a great insight into theology and religion better than any temple or church.
Fr I feel like I’ve learned more from this channel alone than I did my entire childhood growing up religious
The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Worldly credentials and degrees mean nothing in the service of God. What matters is if a person has wisdom and revelation from the Spirit of God. YHWH is the Most High God. There is none other. Jesus is YHWH. The Holy Bible is True. (John 14:6-9, John 17:17).
As it is written, “God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent”
@@evangelisticoutreach1 what if I believe in Jesus, but don’t think he is YHWH? Why can’t I just do that?
@evangelisticoutreach1 Thanks for sharing your superstition. It is not epistemically justified, however.
As an atheist this content feeds my soul in a historical, anthropological kind of way. Thank you for filling a hole that Mormonism destroyed for me.
I feel that bro! Grew up a jehovah’s witness and took the dark route out when I left the cult and went to esoterics
I grew up evangelical in the south of the US, and was evangelical until about 20 (I'm 33 now) and I still just can't shake my love for theology. I think I'd still like to practice some sort of Christian mystical tradition as well, but I'm still wrestling with the baggage of Christianity. Its like it stains a part of you and you can't wash it out. It's funny, I have no qualms with being an atheist and practicing Christian mysticism. It's my total disgust with evangelicals that is holding me back, not my disbelief in the Christian god.
@@_princeovpeace6512 I have no issue believing in the message of Christianity because I think it's mostly an extremely noble vision for humanity, but Christian cosmology and the Christian conception of a personal god is where I start to get a bad taste in my mouth.
@@_princeovpeace6512 check out spiritism
This has been one of my favorite interviews of 2024. Thanks so much to Dr. Sledge and Dr. McClellan.
Hearing Dan call Judah the “little brother” compared to the north makes me wonder if the common biblical motif of God choosing the younger over the firstborn represents a genuine cultural memory of Judah superseding Israel’s prominence
Interesting
I always loved that trope in the bible....I'm the youngest!
Or propaganda to justify it
@@oliviawilliams6204Justify? Assyria crushed the northern kingdom. That is what made Judah stronger than Israel/Samaria.
Probably not, as that's just a throwaway metaphor from the video. If anything the motif is used to explain why efraim is the more powerful and prosperous nation instead of the older siblings
I have stumbled across the history of the God of Abraham in my personal gazing on TH-cam, but I always take it with a grain of salt. This was an interesting video.
There are very few people who descent without deserting. It's hard to get a moderate like this to do the work then have people accept it but it's probably closer to the truth of why it is fundamentally important. Cognitive theology if I knew these things existed I would've stayed in education
@@andrewbreding593 Yeah.
@@thirdcoastfirebirdYeah.
Talking about monotheism as an us vs them label. The rabbis I learned from always said don't say Judaism is monotheistic we are not part of that group. Judaism is panantheistic and monotheism is merely a one idol system.
would it be possible to make a video about lucifer and satan being very different entities unrelated to each other? a few videos have popped up on the topic, but having an actual scholar on it i think it would be beneficial.
I was wondering if these two would cross paths given their expertise and material they choose to cover on their respective channels. I am grateful to them both for delivering such wonderful content and hope they do another one of these! Dan, Justin, you are both amazing and I wish you the best!
Please, please, please do this again with another topic! Perhaps this becomes a regular, yet periodic, feature on the two channels? Thank you, both!
Dangit! I wish I had known that you two were going to do a live collaboration!
Ikr? Just missed it!
Two of my favorite scholars together...like two great tastes that taste great together. A Reeses cup of theological discussion.
The live stream was exceptional, covering a fascinating topic that illuminated the depths of mystical and spiritual knowledge in a captivating way.
I love all the content lately on the origins of Yahweh and the origins of monotheism. I've been fascinated about these topics ever since I first read the Early History of God.
Near the end we touched on something that is about to becomes extremely present and prominent in all our lives. Religion as a tool for self improvement, vs religion as a tool for power (and superiority).
As we know by now the US Republican Party has decided that Christian Nationalism is their path to power. It's my hope that you can use whatever power and reach you have to explicitly rebuke this.
Otherwise, thank you as always for your stream of fine scholarly work. As a burgeoning philosopher your voice is a brilliant light in a very murky and confused field.
I'm going to have to watch this a few times, and still let it soak in. I hear the words, but my mind is kind of blown right now!
i had the same experience as a youngster reading the bible but nobody could explained me why they were talking about gods in plural
Two of my very favourites together !! This was such a treat made my day !! Thank you both for what you do :)
37:55 "Judea is playing the role of the little brother here", hm, could that be connected to the fact that in the biblical narrative God repeatedly chooses younger brothers over the older ones?
Definitely a coincidence ;)
Dan - El? Fortress of Solitude? You implying? Heh. Because those are Marvel Comic covers on the wall behind you.
Dan's a big comics nerd, so I think it was an intentional reference.
OMG MY TWO FAVES!!!! Let’s gooo!!!
Oi, you think those are defeats? Have you looked at crucifiction?
Both guys are religious and believe in God? How can you fit the round pin in the square hole when they have a conversation like this? So what is even religion/religious?(I'm an atheist by the way, deeply fascinated by the origins of religion and metaphysic worldview of us humans)
I'm religious but a post-theist
@@TheEsotericaChannel please explain "post-theist"
Definitely not in a yt comment
@@TheEsotericaChannel cool, I can respect that.
I'll make a video about it at some point
Took me a while to realise he said he lives in Herriman, Utah and not “a harem in Utah”
Oh snap! Dan McClellan is my favorite bible guy!
Maybe I missed it but was God an Anatomy mentioned? That was a really interesting book that was laid out in a clever way.
37:38 What you guys are discussing at this point in the video kinda parallels or proves something that I have held for a long time: history is not written by the victorious, as some people say; the people who write the histories will eventually become the victorious.
what if in 2k years this video becomes the basis for everyone worshipping the denver broncos.
45:53 wow my Raiders catch a stray to the forehead out of nowhere haha 😭🤣. Nonetheless, Love the vid 🫶🏽
it doesn't speak DIRECTLY to the origins of yhwh, but there's this really interesting lecture David Ilan gave to the Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures(nee Oriental Institute) about 5 years ago that's still on their youtube channel where he discusses the archaeological evidence of that time for where the polity "israel" came from that might speak to how and where "yhwh" came to be. it's called "How Ancient Israel Began: A New Archaeological Perspective."
These two together would be the perfect recurring segment on this channel
Great video! Would love to see Joel Baden on next!
So fascinating! I had a realization a few months ago that the reason there are no atheists in foxholes, is because that’s where men create God/s.
It sounds as if YHWH became more God-like when the Jews(?) or Hebrews(?) were experiencing the Babylonian exile.
Hopefully I heard that correctly…
If not…never mind! 😅
Theological Necromancy is the HARDEST OF HARDCORE SENTENCES EVER.
Let me just start by saying I absolutely loved this segment.
Y'all briefly mentioned the exit of Yahweh worship as the proverbial war god/ storm God. I personally do not believe that worship ever ended.
Two examples because everyone can relate to it, not to exclude Islam or Judea, but Christianity picked up the ball and ran with it.
In reference to the Crusades and the Inquisition.
In my humble opinion that was still the same rampaging deity, the church just slapped a new face on it in the image of the Christ, skewing and perverting everything that the Christ stood for.
The addition of the Christ would be considered a Reformation, but the holy church reformed that Reformation back to the previous warfaring bloodlust of the very deity he spoke out against.
I am by no means a scholar, rudimentary in knowledge at best, but I have been studying for close to 40 years I am forever a student and always craving knowledge
Wow what a great discussion..thanks for sharing with us!
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” curious about this line! was this pre or post the monotheistic “revision”
Can there ever be objectivity in special pleading?
An acknowledgment of subjectivity has to be involved in any honest discussion.
Was the KJB put together in a way where monotheism was injected into it?
The filling of the infinite gap of a theistic singularity with a multiplicity of beings is echoed in the cosmological singularity of “creation” ex nihilo. With what material did this deity create if its self is the only substance? Where did this being place this substance which was not occupied by its self? Etc etc
Dr. J needs to jump on the Data>Dogma podcaat so we can all have a live cocktail party. 🖖
Love you both and what a surprise to find you both here, together!!!❤❤❤
Thanks!
"Last god standing"!
Hey Herriman UT, shout out from South Jordan!
Can you post the link for the Biblical Hebrew class?
Nothing says job security like correcting people on the internet.
Epic crossover, love both your work
Theological Necromancy - another good band name 🤘
Why hasnt anyone made a game of thrones style show, but with Gods.
I identify as an evangelical Christian. That being said, what I have believed to be absolute truth, was initiated by the collection of historical documents we call the Bible (actually Biblia meaning books. No rabbit hole here). I still maintain my faith, however, this is the first time I actually heard of and in the past 3 weeks dove into stories such as "Enuma Elish" and "Gilgamesh" and now for the first time tuning into ESOTERICA. I'm open-minded to hearing your scholarship to determine for myself if my faith has been on shaky ground or if it is academic overblown hyperbole and comparisons that make too much out of the similarities and don't mention the vast differences between ancient mythology vs biblical accounts. Is it more plagiarism? or more polemic? This is fascinating to learn and study. I'll keep coming back to learn. Thank you for your channel!
My impression from listening to critical biblical scholars is that the consensus is that the first creation story in the bible isn't a plagarism of the Babylonian creation myth, but more a response to it (amongst probably other rhetorical objectives.)
I learned very much from this talk - a deep thank you!
This is great! I hope they both do further videos together.
Finally 🙌
Love both scholars but I think it's kinda weird Dan saying Adonai instead of Yahweh 😂
We all have our preferences - I respect his being respectful!
Two of my favorites ❤
Reunited and it feels so good! A deep pull.
Hey, if moral realism is true, and the one god is responsible for all that is as the uncreated ground of being, then the one god is responsible for ethics.
That's a helluva hypothetical syllogism
I like the idea of religious hype people. St. Flavor of Flav decreed, “Yeah boy! There ain’t no other gods! Who’s running the show? G.O.D!”
Dan, you didn't announce your T-shirt fit for this live stream!
Ducktales! (Awwwooooo-Ooo!)
Is the god of Spinoza more strictly monotheistic then?
Monism yes, mono-theism, not so much
First of: WOW! Super cool stuff. A good representation of the historical god! And it's not a glorious story! That's food for thought. But what's niggling at me the whole time, what shimmers through: de social political process that lead to these two kingdoms. A confederation of rebellious Kanaanite non-elites, semitic tribes, mixed in a ton of Egyptian and older Babylonian stuff. How did that story go in reality? Cause it's them that tell the Biblical story, redacting it etc.
What a fantastic conversation!
Great live stream!!! 💯🙏🏽
Fascinating stuff, as always. Many thanks to the both of you, good doctors, for sharing your learning and your points of view.
For what it's worth, I have never understood the self-imposed necessity for strict, unadulterated monotheism that so many people seem to require for their own peace of mind. What is wrong with a god who is both manifestly immanent and transcendent at the same time? What is wrong with God having intermediaries? One could always assert that he created them, and therefore, his "staff" doesn't have to pose any threat to his primacy. I agree with Dr. McClellan, when he said that the Xtian zealotry for strict monotheism is more about power than about literal loyalty to the Bible, since I can see no other reason why such a puritanical focus on divine singularity makes any sense.
When you dig deeply enough into many seemingly polytheistic religions you find an underlying unified sense of the divine that essentially amounts to monotheism, so it seems to me that as long as humans live with religions we will always be drawn back to the concept of the one-supreme-deity. I have no problem with that. Honestly, the amount of rhetoric and bloodshed that seems to have been waged in the name of "whose-monotheism-is-the-mono-est" kind of strikes me as if people were arguing and warring over the color of the wallpaper... Is the game really worth the candle? Still, it's interesting to contemplate.
All the best, N.
Interesting Talk learned a few things Thank You. Something I like to remind my self while I try and figure it out like every one else. Is that these beings in the end are incomprehensible to us. So we do our best and then we all fight over the Definitions and the Logic. What else can the ants talk about when discussing the Farmers? We can come to a perfect conclusion and Yahweh or who ever you believe is in the farmers group still will be what they will be. We can try to make sense of it and we probably should but they do not operate by the same rules as us. The restrictions we put on God are just words. A Person can drink coffee every day and then say I want Tea. The server can say but that's not your usual and it might matter. My point is the Contradictions are our problem to deal with among our selves in the limited way we understand it. In the end our understanding will still be limited and lead to conflict as 3D beings try to make 2D images of A Being or Beings that operate from a completely different perspective than us.
I have followed you both individually for awhile. Thank you for this conversation. While I am not a scholar I am long time reader (of the book) first time poster. Thanks for this conversation that is a little higher on details and view. It helps my brain to remember the ways that were burned into me in my childhood are just stories of people trying cope. Thank you both very much.
Very interesting discussion, I am currently on my second listen. I wonder what you think of the idea that parts of Jeremiah are actually a rebuke of Josiah's reform/inquisition.
The elephant in the room for me is Persian Zoroastrianism. We have a messianic king of kings following a single good god. Before that, we have trash talk my god is better than your god. Afterward, we introduce ethics and metaphysics.
Zoroastrianism was not monotheistic during the Persian rule of Judea, its messianic ideas and exclussivism developping along several centuries.
@@MrAlepedroza Look at the Behistun Inscription, which was created at the time of Darius, who was of the same dynasty. This clearly establishes worship of Ahura Mazda. If you look at Second Chronicles, Cyrus proclaims "All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me." From this, it seems reasonable to infer that YHWH was equated with Ahura Mazda.
Really appreciated this conversation. Looking forward to hearing more from Dan.
I was so excited to see both of your faces!! I grabbed my popcorn instantly! I've learned so much from both of you. Please do more videos together 🙏
Incredible discussion! Lots of angles I never considered before, particularly that bit about monotheism as concept being hailed as a supreme value. I've never thought to challenge the rationale on why it has to be one god if any. I mean I've thrown out the idea polytheism as an immediate out so my view falls into a dichotomy of one vs none and it never occurred to me on visiting why it has to be one if it's none. Guess I need to brush up on what it's like to be a filthy pagan.
Viewing the development of early israelite-judahite through their local political is also interesting. YHWH/Adonai becoming the supreme deity due to being the last one standing in the region after some elimination of deities makes me think of how Paul's teachings were what won out among early christianities due to them surviving as literature being passed around long after his own death and loss of control of his own churches. It also brings to mind how there was that one egyptian pharaoh that tried to push his own monotheistic beliefs over the rest to consolidate power and wealth under himself but failed to only for the next guy to bring things back to polytheism. If unity behind a faith can't be enforced with powerful backers then it's up to the means of propagation to survive long enough amongst the chaos.
Fantastic discussion! I meant to tag this to watch later, but watched 5 minutes and all of a sudden I'd watched an hour. Love these kinds of minds meeting.
A item of difficulty I have with the comparison of the archaeological record to the documentation kept by a religious group is the biases from other cultures. How would a polytheists interpret the actions/ beliefs of a monotheistic culture/ deity? Would they not try to separate it into separate entities. Even the histories kept in by the Israelites is filled with the polytheististic influences as the scholars and prophets of the religion struggle to maintain the "one God" practice because the concept is just hard to grasp.
Two of my favorites :)
The appearance of Yahweh Katan such as Metatron and even Jesus during the Hellenistic and Roman periods implies to me a resurgence of "polytheism". Could it be an indication that the centralization of Adonai as a deity had gone too far and practitioners needed more accessible representation and less abstraction?
I've seen Dan on TH-cam before and I am going through the backlog of Data Over Dogma and for some reason never equated that they were the same person. Very smart stuff in both of those contents and I recommend both his TH-cam Content and podcast.
🧐🤯🧐🤯🤯🥴🥰
Incredible discussion, thank you for illuminating a topic that's almost taboo to unpick in some places. The bit about theological necromancy got me 🤯 it's so true! I've seen religious people pull that trick like they're drawing Exodia cards from their Yu-Gi-Oh! deck.
Also, the part where you're discussing the fact that monotheism really doesn't stand up well as a theory makes so much sense to me. It's the main reason I gave up on it many years ago, no one could provide logical explanations, or a back story, as it were, for how this all came to be. Thought processes have always led me back to the conclusion that, if theology is real, there can only be multiple forces at play to fulfil the different roles needed in the progression of the world and humanity's story. This may be one of the deepest and most important discussions on this channel. Which is saying A LOT 😂😂😂
timestamps anyone??
Min 56:53 yay! Not nearly enough shout outs in forums like these to cognitive linguistics!! YAY!! ❤
great discussion
That is so fucking weird! I was just in Harrimen, Utah this week! The coincidence is weird.
That 18th century definition makes sense, seems thst was meant to be a Greek translation of the Arabic theological term of Tawid.
On cheerleading and politics: George W Bush was one in college. Good catch, Doc.
1:09:26 covers the question that interests me a lot. Recently I've been reading about Clement of Alexandria flipping Plato's anairesis (ascent). Where Plato had philosophers ascending to make contact with the Absolute, in Christianity Jesus qua the Absolute descended to all humans to make that contact, so he could still bring in all of the neo-Platonic architecture but with the basic mechanism of contact reworked. I've always thought the mechanism of contact for humans to the Absolute is the real key question that comes up again & again, and whatever else is in your system, that's the keystone that holds it all together, like Justin is talking about. Great discussion.
Yes. 1:09:30 is the key for me to enter into (as a bemused observer) this ridiculously arrogant speculation that Hashem told us not to do (do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of such things ("all things") which is reserved for Him)
Great episode! It was so awesome to hear you and @maklelan tackle this topic. It is a discussion between you two that I had been curious to hear. You both handled it well and would love to see more content like this in the future.
Yahweh fighting by prison rules is an image I'll always treasure!
I hope you continue to speak about monotheism and maybe talk about the Islamic Allah? Thanks 😊
"Theological Necromancy" That term goes so hard, I love it.
The fallen one's having chosen their land on earth then went to govern the native peoples of that region...they went by never alone, up to ten maximum they did go, by the reason of their original treachery in the other realm they did turn on themselves, to war they went with their earthly servants(slaves), by the time many of the worlds religious scripts were recorded there is a memory and last of the epic wars between the fallen one's, it seems there are at least two or three still waring here.
I would go further in saying that there is not only an interest in this kind of content, but a thirst for it. This was an excellent stream, and I look forward to more of this type of content.
Thank you!
One of the best episodes if I didn't watch the parts you fast forwarded live though I'd be a bit upset about it being hard to hear
Just watched data over dogma. What a nice surprise!
Very good discussion! Thank you both!