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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มิ.ย. 2024
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In today's video, I weigh in on a conversation between Bless God Studios and Radar Apologetics. Keeping with my theme of how confusing and contradictory Christianity is, I cover the following:
- Confusing The Link Between The Two Testaments
- The Role Of The Holy Spirit
- The Unforgivable Sin
- How Do We Get Saved
- Losing Your Salvation
- What is Salvation
- Justification vs. Sanctification vs. Glorification
- Lordship Salvation
- Once Saved, Always Saved
- Predestination
- Free Wil vs. God's Sovereignty
Original Video by @BlessGodStudios - • Messianic Rabbi SHREDS...
@RadarApologetics www.youtube.com/@RadarApologe...
My Videos Mentioned During This Episode:
Divine Dichotomy - • The Divine Dichotomy: ...
Born Again - • Born Again: A Confusin...
Reformed Epistemology - • Reformed Epistemology:...
Tangled Theology - • Tangled Theology: Exam...
Loser Theology - • "Loser Theology" And C...
10 Questions For Atheists - • Answering Tough Questi...
Free Will - • Divine Puppetry: The M...
Secular Bible Study Playlist - • Secular Bible Study
Christianity Is Confusing Playlist - • Christianity Is Confusing
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Other Resources For You:
- Freedom From Religion Org - ffrf.org
- Recovering From Religion - recoveringfromreligion.org
- Dare To Doubt Mental Health Resources - www.daretodoubt.org/resources
- Ex Christian Resources - / resources
- Secular Student Alliance - secularstudents.org
-The Humanist Society - thehumanistsociety.org
Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:04 Clip 1
1:35 Salvation Issues
3:13 Clip 2
4:49 Losing The Spirit - Unforgivable Sin - How To Be Saved
9:26 Clip 3
10:44 Justification, Sanctification, Glorification
14:39 Clip 4
15:27 Old Testament Issues
18:31 Clip 5
20:00 A New Creation
26:53 Clip 6
27:33 Predestination
30:49 Clip 7
31:59 Free Will
35:20 Final Thoughts
#blessgodstudios #mindshift #christianity #atheism #atheist #exchristian #christiandebate - บันเทิง
I am just going to list a few points that Christians cannot even agree for Christianity. This will not include topics like abortion, divorce, racism, war, murder, or anything that societies _actually_ care about (becuase otherwise, this would quickly devolve into apologists spamming every lie and deceit in their playbook), just what is supposed to be some of their beliefs and tenets:
• The Holy Trinity - some denominations believe this, and others do not; also, some do not even believe there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit
• Jesus as a Person or God - some denominations believe he is the Son of God, some believe he is God, and others believe him to be perhaps the most divinely inspired human being but otherwise not related to God
• Eucharist/Communion - some denominations believe a full-on transformation happens before consumption, and others maintain it as only symbolism
• Free Will vs Predestination - a whole can of worms that has already been explored by this channel and others (see Calvinism if you want an idea of just how f^^^ed-up this can get)
• Salvation, or more specifically, how it is obtained - some denominations believe that preaching is how it is done, some believe that actions like the Corporal Works of Mercy (i.e feed the hungry, care for the sick, etc. - this may or may not require the recipients to convert, depending on the denomination), and others... just do not even bother with addressing this
• Existence of demons and possession - another can of worms, and what I pitch as a potential future topic for this channel (replace Calvinism with Catholicism to get the WTF factor)
• Satan/The Devil - yes, there are denominations that do not believe that the Devil even exists
• Heaven - yes, some denominations do not believe Heaven is a separate special God zone/kingdom
• The Bible - the _hundreds_ of different versions (not counting translations), all with their own differing canons, already speaks volumes on the disagreement here, and this is without getting into the many different ways that Christians (especially apologists) read (or more accurately, not read), "interpret," cherry-pick, and outright ignore what is in it
I could go on, but these are arguably the biggest ones that show how and why there are tens of thousands of sects, denominations, and cults of Christianity - and it is not as if these differences were mostly peaceful or small-scale (see the modern-day Balkans as a pretty glaring example, something that my family history has quite a few chapters on).
In fairness, this kind of (often violent) division is hardly exclusive to Christianity, as literally every religion has had the same kind of (often violent) division over their own beliefs and tenets, but until they actually resolve these differences and condense down into _one_ without *_ANY_* sects, denominations, or cults, Christianity (and every religion) has nothing to stand on for its claims.
Pinning this as your examples are so simple, and there's just no arguing it. Every Christian that continues to tell me there is no confusion, look above. And yes, you are right. This division happens in all religions, and for the same reason, they are all man-made.
Loved this response. Thanks!!
"anything that societies actually care about" ---
Take note of the tree from which you grew before lopping off its branches. The Western liberalism to which we are so habituated today, and which we take for granted as self-evident was utterly alien to the minds of our ancestors. In modern times, Nazism and the Soviets, or today's war in Ukraine, demonstrate clearly that Christian ideals cannot be taken for granted. When we depart from their Source we will, like alcoholics, fall of the wagon and return to our barbaric ways.
"it is a tenderness which long since cut off from the person of Christ, is wrapped in theory. When tenderness is detached from the source of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror. It ends in forced labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chambers"
(O'Connor, Flannery “A Memoir of Mary Ann, introduction” NY: Farrar, Status & Cudahy, 1961)
see also:
Holland, Tom "Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World" Basic Books 2019
@@MindShift-Brandon "anything that societies actually care about" ---
Take note of the tree from which you grew before lopping off its branches. The Western liberalism to which we are so habituated today, and which we take for granted as self-evident was utterly alien to the minds of our ancestors. In modern times, Nazism and the Soviets, or today's war in Ukraine, demonstrate clearly that Christian ideals cannot be taken for granted. When we depart from their Source we will, like alcoholics, fall of the wagon and return to our barbaric ways.
"it is a tenderness which long since cut off from the person of Christ, is wrapped in theory. When tenderness is detached from the source of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror. It ends in forced labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chambers"
(O'Connor, Flannery “A Memoir of Mary Ann, introduction” NY: Farrar, Status & Cudahy, 1961)
see also:
Holland, Tom "Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World" Basic Books 2019
@@andrewferg8737 Welcome. You are the first Christian apologist in this thread. Do you want us to go into your "Christian ideals," which are not only hardly unique to Christianity, but that in the name of them, the religion stole, slaughtered, enslaved, and otherwise seized countless societies and their peoples, resources, and other forms of power so that it could expand its own, all while claiming that life and preserving it are meaningless as Jesus is supposed to come back to life in his apostles' lifetime - which, BTW, _still_ has not happened?
You know, when the "tree from which [I] grew" is a manchineel tree, you will have to forgive me (and is that not the Christian thing to do?) for recognizing that it needs to be cut down and replaced with something else that has long since proven to be far less toxic and deadly than it.
Imagine thinking that the bible is the single most important book in existence, and telling people that they are wrong for checking all the details
this is a wonderful point. So simple, so good.
@@MindShift-Brandongreat channel by the way, I discovered it yesterday and I'm subscribed now😂
Awesome to hear. Welcome to the family, and thanks for being here!
Read proverbs. It's important. Read it again, and read it a third time. Teach it to everyone you know.
@@theboombody And if your god doesn't choose you, you're out of luck.
"I don't like using terms that other people use."
It's amazing how hard they work to avoid being pinned down to any specific belief or position.
That quote does little more than express the speakers lack of concern about being understood.
If one doesn't like using terms that other people use, then one should just stop talking! 😅
Yes.. absolutely like you said. So sick of all the folklore of religions that we have to believe as the truth.
It is actually studying the bible for many years that brought me out of this faith. I feel so free.
Free indeed! Thanks for being here.
@@MindShift-Brandon yay
It's all human made ideas and not meant to lead people to living from their true self. It keeps people down, infantilized and unable to think clearly and critically. It is mostly divisive, dogmatic, superior and about who has the one right way to live. To be free, we must examine and question our conditioning, we must heal our inner wounds so we don't pass on generational trauma. We must end the wars in our self. This is the biggest challenge in being human, remembering the truth of who we ALL are.
My issue with the "never a true Christian" statement it that on that basis nobody can ever be sure they are saved. They are saying that it is possible to believe you are saved but not be. Since we don't know who is going to lose their faith and be labelled "never a true Christian" how can anybody know now that they are?
such a wonderful point!!
the beginning of the end for me was realizing that free will is absolutely unbiblical (and philosophically incoherent, but i was too christian for philosophy back then) and so if christianity is true, it doesn't matter how hard i try to believe it, because i have no control over whether i'm elect or not
Christians will tell no-Christians that all you need to be SAVED is BELIEVE that Christ Died for us, etc, etc..... but once you become a Christian, you find there's many, many other things to do to be really saved, or else you can't be saved!
That's why my response to "you were never really saved" is "neither are you."
@@sootuckchoong7077 Gotta have the "secret truth" XD
My Mother warned me about Christianity, she said "If you're looking for God in the words of men, you're gonna be awfully confused" I thought she was just being a "Doubting Thomas"... 20 years later, her words still ring true.
I hope you told her this!
@@cutienerdgirl I wish I could've, unfortunately she passed on while I was still somewhat of a Christian. I prayed for God to cure her ALS but it only got worse. So yah, now I'm on my way to becoming a full blown atheist. But thank you for concern.
@@Grayraven777 I'm so sorry! I wish I hadn't sent you that, now. Most parents aren't concerned about being told their right, anyway, they just want to make sure their kids lead a better life than them. It's great your honoring her beliefs now! 🖤
Being unclear is the power of religion; you can always explain everything in whatever way you need to.
The quotemining, the cherrrypicking, the choosing of a favourite translation even to the extent of choosing a favourite redaction of the bible, it's all done to be able to give people the impression that god is on your side no matter what.
Nobody has a clue what god actuaklyt wants because the only reference we have is the bible and nobody agrees on what the bible says because they all need it to say something different for their own purposes.
great summation. Thanks for saying this all so simply!
"What God actually wants" is a serious problem here. We are told about salvation and the loving God wanting to have a relationship with his creation for eternity, unsullied by sin... yadda yadda yadda... but what we see (assuming most Christian theology) is God not getting what he wants, or deliberately making it hard for himself.
The whole Christian doctrince of "free will" and "sin" and salvation" makes (somewhat) sense from the backward view of humans _being_ in a certain way, and trying to line that up with being God's crown of creation.
But everything about it fails when you try to imagine any situation in which to _create_ such a thing at all, knowing it will just not work.
One reasonable conclusion would be that... God doesn't "want" that. He may offer the option... but ultimately he just doesn't care what happens. Even likes to see what happens... and the failure and suffering and despair and confusion.
Or he is exactly as uncaring as a non-existent deity would be... because he doesn't exist.
AMEN VINNY
You cannot know what "God" wants, because "God" is not a person. "God" is an idea, hatched in the minds of primitive humans. When you figure out what "God" isn't, you'll begin to understand what it is.
Exactly. Once something is established as consistent you can confidently start poking holes into it, and they can't have that.
As an ex Jehovah's witness your amazing dissemination of the bible and Yahweh is the perfect addition to my deconversion
So glad to hear it. Thank you for being here!
Word Salad. LOL. You're absolutely right.
I honestly had a visceral reaction listening to those guys. I remembered when I was a Christian and my stomach tightened and I felt fear.
Sorry to trigger you. It all does come rushing back so easily doesn’t it.
@@MindShift-Brandon No problem. It’s not your fault. I appreciate your videos. Yeah, it all comes rushing back pretty quickly. I was not expecting it. Keep up the good work!
I felt the same, I'm still going through a battle inside to try and find peace. It's so awful. Just know that you are not alone.
@@briannamorrison380 thank you for the kind words.
I had the same thing
I went to a conversion therapy camp in Kentucky a few years ago during the pandemic
I had my own understanding of the Bible in scripture, and one of the first things that they do when you arrive to dismantle all of that
The argument is, is that if you were really saved, you would not be committing sexual sin, or be a slave to your lusts. So obviously, you must not have been saved.
They said that until Christ comes in your heart and really saves you than you are doomed to hell
I have never studied scripture and cried out to God so intensely. But I could find no clear indicator of what saved actually was, what belief actually was, there are so many contradictions. It was hard to sort out.
Before you can advance in the program, the staff must see a change in your spirit, and they will not give you any hints on what they are looking for.
I advance to the next stage somehow, and I went to one of the staff members, and I was terrified because I could not send to change from when I got there to who I was
He basically said, don’t worry about it let god sort it out.
I drove myself mad, looking for actual evidence, or clear, cut guidelines and scriptures on how to accomplish even the most basic Christian feet.
But all I found was double talk, wordplay, and confusion.
I’ve been suicidal four years trying to figure out what saved enough is.
It’s so good to be on the opposite side and see it for what it is. I can’t believe I made my way out.
Congrats on making it out!! What a horrendous situation. That shit is grotesque. That is pure abuse in my mind. I am so sorry for what you went through. Christians, tell me again this religion isn't harmful!
Welcome out brother.
Richa Carrier says Jesus had a boyfriend. Your in good company
I am guessing you were going thought a troubling time in your life when you went to the conversion camp.. If wrong I am sorry for my mistake. SO if I am wrong ignore and don't read below...
To me, one of the evil things about Christianity is the preying on people suffering through some medical or emotional problems. The fools actually believe they are helping based on the religous believes they have that are not founded in human science and human understand. . They sound like they offer twisted work of a devil rather than a god.
But there is much good you can learn from this crazy religous experience. One being the mindset of anyone that would actually conduct as a church member or participate as a leader in this kind of Priestcraft (as apposed to witchcraft) tricks and propaganda. I suspect they are very fundamentalist in their belief and therefore have stepped away from common sense and reality. The other thing is that jumping off the ship of reeality into an ocean of fundament religion answers few emotional and no physical problems for humans. They act on false teaching they have been brainwashed with rather than logic.
In my experience such folks often claim a person attending has been brainwashed and flooded with evil or anti-christian messages. They are far more evil in their approach and attempts to brainwash. In short they are f**king nutcases that shoulld be suited for unethical practices (*if that is even possible based on how religion is protected).
Good luck in your future. I am glad you came here to discuss this even if I am not qualified to help you. Your story may help others. If so you have done a damn good thing.
If you suffer from an emotional problem there is far better help for you than some religious program designed to fulfill their needs not yours. Secular psychological help based on human science is far better than help based on iron age propaganda from a small offspring of an already small sect of Jews believing the end of times would happen in their lifetime.
The big difference is that actual science based help does not flood you with propaganda condemning you as a human. So the answer may take longer but in time is better. This is my opinion based on some study in college of counseling. BUT, again I am saying I am no expert in the field and my advice is worth what you have paid for it. AGAIN good luck.
This is why I have adapted a simple standard for all faiths. Prove to me with evidence that the supernatural events you calm are real. Give me verifiable evidence not faith as a source of the supernatural. Surely a real god would have no problem proving a supernatural event that was the very foundation of the faith (virgin birth - jumping out of the grave) was real. In fact, it seems he'd make it undeniably clear for all to see plus this revealed text (bible/Koran) would be simple and easy to read without turns and twist in the wording. Minus that they can go f**k themselves where ever it makes them happy to do it to themselves.
to be fair, jesus wants to make you his bride and come inside you, which does sound a little gay.
Fantastic breakdown
Out of the abundance of skeptic YT that i watch, I haven't seen anyone highlight how inane Christianity is by comparing itself to itself. Loving the content!
Thats so great to hear. I was hesitant to even start the channel because I’m like 12 years too late lol. So its encouraging to hear theres a place for it.
One of the best videos I've ever watched. The confusion about salvation has caused myself and my other family members unparalleled amounts of psychological torment for years and years. My mom is still deeply devout, but has struggled with this her entire life. I'm almost ready to send her this video.
Thank you for all your very thoughtful and encouraging comments!
Great content as always.
I feel like the concept of "Once saved always saved but only if you're truly saved" is self-defeating in terms of knowing if you're saved. Surely if there are people who thought they were saved but actually weren't and were therefore predetermined to "lose faith" then nobody could be confident that they're actually saved since maybe the same thing will happen to them and there's nothing they can do about it.
Exactly! I actually make this exact point in Saturdays video coming up.
Another is that JC created the universal pardon for everyone, you are pardoned of a crime you never committed but the only way to the pardon is to believe. If you don't believe you don't get the pardon, so even though you are now pardoned you will still have to suffer for the crime you were pardoned of.
@@55Quirll Christians say, "Well, you aren't without sin, so..." and completely dismiss the whole Adam&Eve original sin thing. You can't win. You can't be perfect, so you're guilty by design!
@@gusgrizzel8397 Yes, sad. They can’t seem to agree among themselves on whether or not you’re saved.
People walk down the aisle to get married and sometimes they’re actually doubting if they should do it and they’re not feeling the commitment so although they say there I do’s
Was that person really married? Was that person agreeing to love honor and cherish till death do us part .
Some people just want Jesus to get them out of the situation, so they accept him as lord and savior and thick then continue to live the life they live .
Yes, once saved always saved if you truly were saved
The confusion and contradictions within even individual sects of Christianity (mine was Four Square) was what started me on a path to deconversion. And then discussions like this and from apologists were really the driving force that pushed me all the way out. They say nothing, and answer nothing for anyone who struggles with any part of their faith in this back and forth. I was told if i was anxious and having problems to just ask God to take it and the weight would be lifted. So I prayed all day every day when I was going through some of my worst struggles and heard nothing, and felt no relief at any point. I was fully in and committed, and got nothing but silence.
I appreciate channels like yours as they help me find things I haven't processed from my past beliefs that I haven't really thought about recently and it takes a weight off to see an informed break down and articulation of the struggles and reasoning that I've gone through. Love your videos
Thabk you so much for that encouragement and for sharing. Man, can i relate! Glad to help you process and happy to hear these videos are useful. Cheers!
What a mess. They were all over the place. Loved hearing your thoughts in this one!
Thank you, much! Yes a lot to go through.
Salvation comes from within. Learning to live with your own nature, and accepting that it is NOT a sin to be what you are, is the road to salvation. For me, learning that God was not real, was the first step in my salvation. Then owning my transgressions, rather than excusing them made me a better man.
100% reclaiming this word for a true sort of deliverance. Deliverance from falsehood!
How do you know what is or is not a transgression?
Same
@@monolith94 Sorry about the delay. I did not get a notification of your question.
Transgression in my mind is a deed (but not a thought) of malice toward another, or a fundamental laps in moral judgement. This is of course based on my upbringing and my experience in this world..... NOT on the experiences of 6th century BC shepherds.
@timhallas4275 what makes it malice tho?
In my field (math and physics) we understand how important precise definition and clarity of thought are the foundation of communication. Without precision and clarity, an idea can’t be supported or refuted.
Exactly
Exactly
Exactly
Exactly
@@ndjarnag exactly
This apologetics video boils down to ,' You better or else'.
I've checked my apologetics bingo card.
Lol yes a great video for apologetics bingo!
Welcome all. Sorry for two longer videos in a row, ha. Just so much to say on this one. Enjoy!
Nah I’m not complaining, means more CONTENT for me 🥺
Long? No Mike Winger videos are long with a capital LONG. Paulogia videos (when he makes them) are long. Braxton Hunter and Pinecreek long. You not so much lol.
All in good fun. I enjoy your stuff.
@@chrispineo1979 Mike winger videos are long true
That or they’re just clips lol.
But yeah it’s basically just him preaching about gay people or whatever
I don’t know why when I was a Christian I watched his whole 6 hour series about homosexuality
Longer is good. I don't need the broad brush. And love the title "Confusianity."
Confusianity: The Struggle To Understand Quantum Mechanics
Poor comprehension does not invalidate a complex truth.
“If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't."
(Richard Feynman)
Another great video. Here's another thing that always gets me. In clip 5 at the 19:45 mark, the Christian is saying how people need to "obey Jesus in all those areas."
Um, what does it even mean to "obey Jesus?"
Should we sell all of our possessions? Hate our parents? Hate ourselves? Obey the Torah's commandments? Break the Torah's commandments?
Can anyone even give a clear and consistent account of what exactly Jesus's followers are SUPPOSED to be doing by reading his words in the Gospels? In some places he's telling everyone to follow all the commandments and anyone who breaks them will be considered least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but then elsewhere he is basically telling people to break commandments, such as when he tells somebody that they must hate their parents if they are to follow him (a clear violation of the commandment to honor one's parents). It really is a mishmash of confusion and contradiction.
100% this has been the main focus of my last 3 sunday videos. Its just so crazy!
Brandon, thank you so much for this channel. Your breakdowns of Christian beliefs and the confusion and contradictions therein are incredibly refreshing and give me a lot of peace. I come from a similar background as you and am so grateful that you’ve taken to TH-cam and provided solace and clarity for myself and others. “God is not the God of confusion,” so I’m honestly not sure what to make of the Bible. It’s a mess.
all we can make of it then is that its not gods word. Thats how i ended up here. And thank you so much for those really kind and encouraging words. Its very motivating to know I am helping anyone in any small way.
@@MindShift-Brandon AMEN!
Reality is confusing and complicated. That's just how it is. If you think the scientific community has all its i's dotted and its t's crossed, you're dreaming. I've seen PHD's in mathematics disagree about whether irrational numbers count as numbers. And there's a LOT of controversy still about cardinality and the axiom of choice.
When I was a Christian and that for 35 years I got to the point that I could no longer believe in the good news neither could I really rejoice when in reality most people in most of time are likely predestined to hell..and my joy for being saved from this pointed more to my own weaknes and vulnerability to really bad ideas
exactly, thats where I was myself also.
One of my fave clips, this one really hit home...The 'free will' issue seems to be completely misunderstood by Christianity. Romans 9:18 is clear about it."So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Regardless of which salvation carrot one hops to, in the end it doesn't matter.
Thank you. Appreciate you being here.
"I believe if I died right now, God forbid..." Thank F&*k I never talked like this, THE INCREDIBLE EGO!!!
I grew up very catholic. We were always told that the only unforgivable sin was despair. If I unalived myself, that was blaspheming against the holy spirit. There's an awesome post about this over at the Roll to Disbelieve blog by Captain Cassidy. Thanks for another great essay.
How interesting. Ill check that out. Thank you!
What is most fascinating to me is that in the New Testament there are a variety of places where this aspiring religion marks itself out as not having any interest in the purpose of religions that came before it, which is the general matter of civilizational maintenance, or the manifestation of right or just governmental systems. The passages that make Christianity unsuitable for this are many: "Do not resist evil," (a complete non-starter for said projects), "Obey the authorities of this world" (said during the reign of Nero, thus making the prospect of things like righteous rebellions - like the US against the British - verboten because few have been worse than Nero), "To he asking you to go one mile go ten..." (referencing the habit of Roman soldiers to force locals to carry their gear during troop movements), and then Paul's extensive treatises on "minding the things of the flesh" coupled with Christ's not worrying for the future (Sermon on the Mount) or any material thing whatsoever, and finally the talk of one's inability to love two masters, one master being God, who is the author of all fates, and then the master that is the calling of the flesh, which bucks against worldly fates (which are God's designed fates, thus finishing the logic of the "hating" the one and loving the other - you will hate God if you love the things of the flesh). Worldy fates is what all politics is about, and when people emote and implore, "We must do x or else" they bear false witness to the idea that the path ahead is good and leads to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Given this spiritualism of utter prostration, Christians managed to turn it into a system of moral compulsions, and a muscular, active, anti-decay force, and the selectivity from among the moral tenets offered (which they believe is according to some algorithm that separates what form the Old Testament can be ditched and what cannot, but that never seems to be consistent) betrays an anxiety about things here on earth falling to pieces, despite that that's exactly what's prophesied to - with great good fortune - occur. This in turn seems to indicate that moral relativity is not all that bad, because we can be given a clear directive to stand down in terms of moral concern (other than as it pertains to ourselves, though even here we have the forgiveness of sins by a belief, alone wreaking havoc and itself making of Christianity a poor vehicle for moral compulsion, when read plainly and honestly), and we still end being very anxious about the path of our tribes.
So much here. I really appreciate this insight and added context!
Please write a book, I want to read it
I didn’t think I could walk away from God . Until he left me in my time of need .
I was always described as a difficult child. The “difficult “ thing about me was that I asked a lot of questions… 🤔 ( no one in the church had good answers for me) I have had life long anxiety from growing up indoctrinated with Christianity.
My need for explanation and closure with the lessons of my world have put me outside in a similar way. People always lost patience with me as though I were merely trying to be contrarian or difficult, or god forbid, "too literal"
Or this dead end that says "If you need to know but cant, why waste your time? Why do it this way when everyone else has already set this other standard?"
I am lucky for my disposition. My road is lonely, but because I insist on turning my own stones, I am free to value what I find.
Unfortunately the anxiety that comes from being without a tribe hasn't lessened. It is hard when your strength does and must come from solitude. The only company I can never exhaust with my prodding.
Thank humanity for youtube! It is nice to feel disconnected, together.
@@bigslumpson7985 I like to say life is a series of questions and probably most of the answers should be a healthy, I don't know. Maybe we should form a community that questions...?
The freedom and peace i feel relinquishing my faith was unexpected and organic. However, i will admit that in the early stages of my agnosticism i do feel almost “superstitious” when negative things arise i often find myself thinking and even sharing with friends - “what if God is real and is punishing me for my non belief” this reminds me i still have so much growth and healing to do when it comes to my religious trauma!
Man dont we all!
At 14:40 the speaker starts to build a typology around Moses being a slave.
Problem is... Moses was never a slave.
Yes i thought the same and was about to speak on it. But then i thought technically he was born a slave. Doesn’t fit what he was trying to make it but the video was already long enough. Ha
It is hard for me to imagine grown adults, who fail to even question the veracity of such unsubstantiated biblical assertions. How can people justify this stuff on the basis of belief, when beliefs aren’t facts? They would have to provide supporting evidence for either salvation, or damnation. Not only do these people have to prove that god exists, but they also have to prove that they know what god wants. Any literate person can concoct such baseless claims.
If God needed other books outside of the Bible and philosophy and biblical scholars, then God should have kept talking to his creation.
100! So simple.
Just found this channel. Amazing. Calm, sincere, knowledgeable responses. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a good Sir Sic belly laugh from time to time, but I'll be running through these videos veraciously. Thank, man.
Love this. Thanks for the kind compliments. Very encouraging!
I was once expelled over an argument on this. Where does good deed or nature fit in? In retrospect, I even think it's constructed so that a range of personalities can be trapped at once. The simple types can stay with "I confess my honest faith" and more sensitive types can question themselves in fear. All fun and no morality.
I feel so lucky that despite my very devout parents' best efforts, belief in Christianity just never ''took'' with me. I went to church, read the bible, and by my mid-teens I'd dismissed it as nonsense.
Lucky indeed! Glad for you
Even Ecclesiastes is nonsense?
I like how you make very clear-the fact that the Bible is unclear on just about every subject. I like how you make everything you talk about concise,and how you are able to expose the collateral damage that Christianity produces from a "been there,done that" perspective.I'm a new subscriber and I'm glad I found your channel.Keep up the good work.I spent 35 yrs of my life in evangelicalism.I consider most of that time to have been wasted.I'm now trying to stop other people from doing what I did-one deconversion at a time.And if I could have a hand in stopping or slowing down "Christian Nationalism" in it's track-I would be overjoyed!
Thank you very much for those kind compliments. It is very encouraging as yes I felt so much of my life was wasted and have a similar goal to help others. Really appreciate you being here!
Great video that really captures the frustration inherent in the pursuit of salvation.
Thank you much. Thats very kind!
Hi Brandon,
You are terrific. Thanks so much for your hard work and I really hope you'll keep it up. Your perceptions and lucidity will be so helpful to many people. Absolutely invaluable.
That is just so kind. Thank you for the encouraging comment!
This really makes me feel better because towards the end of me being a Christian I was so confused as to why I never felt saved, and when I kept searching for how to get saved it never made sense
Another brilliantly crafted piece Brandon of all the confusion 😢😅.
This was the TURMOIL I had within verbalised. I got so emotional and relieved with each sentence you spoke I could truly relate.
Thank you and thank GOODNESS FOR YOU in supporting so many!
I got you! thanks for being here every video and I am so glad to bring any relief or normalization at all.
This is a really good video. You are dismantling what these two guys are saying very clearly and showing the problems and inconsistencies with their beliefs. I don't know if you have seen the channel Venaloid, but he also does forensic analysis picking apart people's beliefs, although in a different style.
Thank you very much for that. And i actually just found Venaloid last week! Really enjoying him.
Your videos are such a treat! 😊
Thanks, Liz!
I know I’m late to this episode. However, i have not been captivated by much lately. But I’ve binged the hell out of your channel. I wish I could support more! Thanks for being easy to listen to!!
What a lovely compliment. Thanks so much for being here!
A pastor once told me that since I was afraid that I might have done the unforgettable sin, then I probably didn't do it, but he couldn't clearly explain what the sin was.
Also, for some Christians baptism is a salvation issue (you must be baptized to be saved) and others say it's just an outward sign that you have been saved. Fun fact: I was baptized and look at me now pastor who told me I didn't comit the unforgettable sin!
Finally, God really did Egypt dirty when he harded pharaoh's heart. Thousands (if not millions) of people died because God wanted to have a **** measuring contest.
all these pastors giving advice when they cant even know is ming boggling. And yes my wifes side is luthern and freaked out when we didn't do baby baptism. yes the harden heart example is one of the most damnable aspects of god's character.
Yeah like if speak out or say it's not real is that it maybe who knows
I just stumbled across this channel a few days ago after watching one of Kristie Burke’s videos and I’m so glad I did. Great content and you bring it forth with great clarity! I’m looking forward to catching up on all your other videos!
Thanks so much! Welcome to the family and hope you enjoy it!
Ha, that’s how I found it too!
I’m rewatching this for the first time since deconverting and boy! You made so many great points that flew over my head at the time bc I was still a hardcore Christian. My old comment did not age well. I was so concerned with defending that I couldn’t even see past my own self righteousness and did exactly what you said “we who know all the answers” did.
Christianity is like spiritual blindness. We’re so close minded it’s like we have literal mental barriers that prevents us from seeing things from a perspective that’s too non-christian. I’m seeing it now and it sort of frightens me just how Christian everyone around me is. It’s a certain kind of blind arrogance where they can contradict themselves so much, but it doesn’t matter how inconsistent they are bc they have the support of their echo chamber backing them up.
I get it bc I was there not too long ago, but sheesh! It’s so glaringly obvious to me how confused and prideful and anti-knowledge they are after deconverting
Oh wow! You are my first before and after that i know of so to speak. Ill have to dig for your previous comment but yes isnt it crazy how clear it all becomes after a certain point?!
Your definition of Justification Santification and Glorifaction was helpful.
Thank you so much for your channel, it's a balm for my RTS
Happy you enjoy. Sorry, what is RTS?
@@MindShift-Brandon Religious Trauma Syndrome
Preach it!! It's like you read my mind the past 20 fucking years! Every week, after many bible studies and Christian books, I would go to churches that preached eternal security. The next week I would go to a "Lordship salvation" church based on a John MacArthur book scaring me😢 I gave up.
Glad to help normalize!
This was a fantastic video. These are some of the bigger questions that haunted me as a believer. When I would ask other Christians about it, I was told I was either over simplifying it, or they would lean on gods mysterious nature.
If you can’t tell the difference between you being wrong and God being mysterious beyond comprehension, then you are bound to believe all sorts of crazy things.
Well said!
When someone asks me if I'm a "Christian" I say "I used to be a Christian but I had an awakening" This usually shuts them right up.
Amazing stuff buddy.
Thanks so much!
Great video! Thoroughly enjoyed it! I look forward to each and every one!
Thats awesome to hear. Thank you so much!
16:47 "can't mix it together" made me think "does it blend?" The idea of throwing tangible thoughts into a blender to see if they can be torn to bits seems a bit ironic and yet apt in this context....
I'm glad i found this channel. You put things into words that i have never been able to but touch upon the reasons for my deconversion. Thank you.
So glad to help normalize! Thanks for being here
Archbishop "I'm off to save fallen women" - Priest "Save one for me"
If I had stayed on the same path of "salvation" I was on before I became an atheist these folks would have ZERO question that I was a Christian on my way to heaven. I'd of likely ended up being a biblical archeologist or something similar.
Yet, I'm an atheist now 🤔
This is a great point.
As a kid, I remember learning about hell in pre school at four years old. It didn’t take long for that insane fear of not knowing whether or not I’d end up there to manifest as some mild form of psychosis. Add on top of that the nonsense about the one unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit which no one can define. My mom would always ask “in front of God” when she wanted me to tell the truth. And that phrase terrified me because it was like I was lying to God if I didn’t tell the truth. So add that all together i ended up banging my head against the back of my chair sometimes when the pernicious thought I was so terrified would enter into my mind “in front of God I’m going to hell”. I thought that mere thought condemned me for certain to hell. Keep in mind I’m like seven years old. What an evil racket this narrative is.
Awesome! Bravo! I chose Calvinism early in my Christian walk because i knew that if even 1% of my salvation depended on me, I would fail. Bible clearly says that even my best works fail. If God is holy and we must also be holy to be in heaven with Him, then Jesus must be ALL our righteousness - and Scripture says that He is.
Catholics and Arminians say the Christ provides "prevenient grace" such that everyone is capable of hearing the gospel and receiving it. But we must add our own "condign merit" to complete the transaction. But if that were true, then our salvation is dependent on OUR OWN deeds - and we would have a basis upon which to boast. But Eph. 2-8-9 takes that option away.
So i tended to stop right there and say "how can those stubborn Arminians insist on their obviously false theology?" Except when you read all of Jesus' sayings and commands, it's all about works, not grace! James and Peter have that same condemning tone. Jesus even condemns the 7 churches of Asia Minor from heaven in Revelation. As a Calvinist, my wishful thinking just rejected all those passages and I clung to the 5 "solas" of the Reformation.
One more thing I ignored was all the Charismatic verses. I prayed for healings and miracles, but i didn't really expect them.
At one time I had the arrogance of "I will never walk away from my faith. Nothing could ever destroy it." Wrong. Knowledge and learning destroyed it. Really reading the bible destroyed it. (I always enjoy THAT bit of irony). RE: Free will -- IF god is omniscient and knows how everything is going to turn out, man does NOT have free will. The script for the play has already been written and god already knows the ending. Humans are just reading the lines until the show is done. That means it was all predetermined before any human ever existed who would be saved and who would be damned. And god has no problem with allowing humans to be born who will then be tormented for all eternity because they will never be saved. Not merciful and not just. The ending is already known and god has no problem with it.
preach! love all of that. So glad our arrogant walls broke down!
Most Evangelicals stress that salvation is a free gift, 'not by works alone are we saved' AND yet, born-again Christians believe you must be baptized, worship the Lord in church, read the Bible all the time, and tithe $$$$ But, whenever a pastor talks about how some so-and-so death row criminal gives his heart to Jesus, it's a done deal. He's bound for Heaven! lol Yes, there is sooooo much contradictory confusion in Christianity
Great video! 👏
ohh great points! thank you!
Thanks! Yet another insightful and entertaining video! WOOT! ❤
Another awesome video. The amount of cognitive dissonance that religious people have whereby they try to jump through a million hoops to try to justify their beliefs gives me a headache when I facepalm so much.
My face is all but smashed in at this point. Thanks Elaine!
"confusianity" 😂
Speaking of the response to Braxton Hunter, I enjoyed yours, Brandon, and I also suggest all should watch Aron Ra’s response, 3 weeks ago, to the year old challenge!
Thanks for pointing out the inconsistencies!
Ohh ill go check it out. Thanks
Everything you mentioned are things that I've thought about. For a long time i was terrified of hell and the more scared i was the more inescapable it became. I couldn't sleep one night i was so scared and felt like i was going to throw up.
I finally came to the conclusion that it was impossible to save myself by being scared of hell and if i was going to hell i was going to hell. Why make the present hell also.
Thats a good point
Oh man you go extremely deep. Hitting so many facts out of the park.
Glad you are enjoying! Thanks for being here
Thank you Bro
11:57 Thank you for thinking of life long atheists like me haha 😅 I am so baffled listening to all this
God: “Confusion? No, no, no! I said I’m not the author of Confucius!
People always get this mixed up, but hey, at least I’m on-brand!”
Ha. Well done.
In 2010 as an 18 Year Old, I was scared to extreme depression by "Blasphemy of the H.S." The Christians on youtube kept telling me "If I kept putting things off" I'd commit it. Multiple people said this, never quantifying how much sin is too much sin.
One of them said the Holy Spirit leaves a person. The Bible, however has Jesus say he will never cast believers out, and that the Holy Spirit would never leave a person. There's so much damn confusion about the unpardonable sin it's unreal.
Thank you for taking the time to go over these issues. It still scares me into adulthood (Yet they say if you are scared, you have not commited it, lol) It's a true and proven fear based tactic to keep people scared and keep them in the faith.
Finally ...finally...people being honest .authentic. speaking a language I understand. What a breath of fresh air!!!! Been a lifetime of almost....believing. A lifetime. Exhausting. Lost all of my family...all my Christian friends are Christians .but all divided.
Sorry to hear that!
There are more “ifs” in Christianity than there are in a Rudyard Kipling poem 😂😂
ha! mixing two of my favorite things together. Counter apologetics and 20th century victorian poetry. well done!
Score! 😂😂
Nice one.
lol.. that was actually funny 😂
But to play fair , you gotta admit that there's a lot of guessing within non-theist circles of truth bashing as well , especially in origin of life debates.
Here are a few :
'probably' , 'might-have', 'possibly', could have been', 'maybe'.. etc.
Sound a lot like they're guessing as well😅
... just an observation
@@lancemarchetti8673 The important thing to remember is that “don’t know “ is a perfectly good answer.
Where did the universe come from? I don’t know
Why is there something instead of nothing? Dunno
How did life start? No idea 🤷♀️
It’s the honest answer if we don’t know something.
What is dishonest is pretending to know. You know what I’m talking about, that thing that religion does.
Where did the universe come from? The god/gods of my particular religion did it!
Ok you got any evidence for that? No???
So your answer doesn’t get us anywhere, and we are back to square one
I'm a bit late, but it is exactly the cycle described that made me leave. I had such bad anxiety, fear, guilt, and shame that at the end I was having breakdowns and wasn't able to keep it together because I was "just trusting in Jesus." I was only in it for two years and I started contemplating suicide because of it. I'm glad I left. I have been so much happier and more loving since I left, and I am angry with the Christian God but also still afraid of hell.
When I read the book of Hosea, my fear went away. Those that stopped believing, God will win back.
Keep up the good work! I am new to all this. I've been an LCMS member my whole life. I've been to Lutheran colleges. Studying day and night about everything. And now I am on my deconstruction journey. Thank you for including the theology apologies in your videos. It helps tremendously!
Thanks so much for being here. Good luck on this wild journey to truth!
Man that small child reciting prayers rings so true wirh my childhood experiences
Those guys sound like they are in the early stages of deconversion. They are recognizing the issues and trying to make sense of it as best they can. Gradually they will either become more open to acknowledging the problems, or they won't be able to cope with the loss of their worldview and try even harder to make sense of it, that is what I did for a long time, but you can only build a house of cards so high.
I feel similarly, but i do think for some that they get to a point and have dug in so much, that nothing will free them. Hope im wrong.
A god that you have to defend of the hardening of heart that results in murder in any instance vs a god that teaches and clarifies directly. The Christian has already revealed how duped they desire to be.
Exactly. I get more and more amazed at believers ability to engage in these discussions while not seeing this stuff clearly.
Good video. My wife’s father was a Lutheran pastor. She has attended Bible studies and church services as long as I have known her-we’ve been married for 41 years. She admits that she is so confused but still believes in Jesus and God. She said she will leave it up to god where’s she going after her death.
Its hard to see that. My wife is similar. Sees the issues and errors but still her relationship with jesus is all that matters and she just assumes hes got it all covered.
You are preaching brother
It’s a huge relief to be out of this sick, sick religion.
You said it!
Still rough if you agnostic or an atheist messed up your life financially
This brings back all of the things that were Thrown at me" by "christians "for most of my life. (And one of them was a woman who'd had an affair with my ex-husband! SHE was going to heaven because she was "SAVED" She just made a lifestyle out of "backsliding!" I, on the other hand was probably going to HELL because I had the AUDACITY to QUESTION the entire damn RELIGION!)
Some justice!
great topic
Thank you!
Brilliant🎉
Glad you liked it!
Another great video and it seemed like all of convo between these guys was just one big word salad. I’m reading a fascinating book right now called Caesar’s Messiah. Have you read it? It puts a whole new spin on the NT and I haven’t finished it yet, but it brings up some interesting coincidences. Keep the common sense train rolling because we need more of it!
I haven’t even heard of it! Looking into it right away. Thank you for the rec and the kind words!
@@MindShift-Brandon I would like to hear your take away if you do read it!
Caesar's Messiah is ahistorical anti intellectual garbage.
If you want an actual book that's based on sound scholarship on the same topic, read James Valiant. Also read Richard Carrier's article on Caesar's Messiah. It's not only a conspiracy, but it's based on made up facts.
Fantastic video! The one topic that there should be no confusion on, and it’s vastly confusing. One thing that I espoused for a few years before I left the faith was Free Grace theology. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that in another video. Just another example of a philosophy on how one is saved. Is it grace alone? Grace plus works? Who knows, and that’s the problem.
Thank you very much!
Exactly. You would think that the one thing that starts the whole process and makes everything else fit together would be the most clear thing among them all. But, here we are.
Exactly! if we cant even get salvation right, can we stop arguing about the rapture already lol.
Great summary
Thank you!
Julie brings home her fiance to meet her parents. Her parents say I don't know Julie we're not sure if he really loves you. Julie says oh he definitely loves me he murdered his son for me🤔
💀
Its like a professor telling students they need to study for a test or they'll fail the program. Then the prof give the test outline to everybody, but its so vague and confusing that everyone comes to different conclusions on what to study. We wouldn't blame the students in this example because obviously the professor should be more clear. But the test God supposedly gives us ends up determining where we end up forever. Seems problematic.
Problematic to say the least and great analogy.
Well done.
Thank you!
Grate job
Thank you kindly.
Man I was about to go to bed! now me gotta watch! lol
I was wondering if you ever heard of the universal salvation model of the bible and maybe you could cover that!
ha! appreciate that. I have heard of it, and great idea. Hopefully, I'll get to it soon.
Dang, I totally missed my chance to finish in the Lord.
Lol. Phrasing!
omg 😂You're going to hell for that one 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@Dock284 Hey, if I'm going anyway, I'm going to earn it.
Drat!
Their god doesn't like it when you pull out. He be smiting you if you try that!
Thanks!
Thanks for this!
I am no longer a Christian but when I was one I always wondered why the NT states “you have no need for man to teach you…..” and yet there is still teaching. Also if I recall correctly Paul, a tent maker preached if you don’t work you don’t eat yet all these preachers who claim they have the Holy Spirit have no issue collecting money from hard working people.
I am as of late becoming an avid watcher of ALL of your Mindshift content. Your presentatiion and research relatuve to the topic of your videos is so fascinating to me. I come from a family of born again believers. I have ALWAYS had so many questions about the Bible and the existence of God but so much of all that i was taught to believe just didnt make sense. The response i often got when frustrated by my questioning from teacher's and Christian acquaintances and Clergy was the blanketed
"Great Is the mystery of Godliness" ...... Its hard not knowing what to believe. If there is a Hell .. Who wants to die and go there. What we do know for sure is that death is inevitable for us all. The NOT KNOWING what happens beyond this life is terrifying. However ..... I still listen watch your videos in that i relate to them on so many levels. I believe you are a just and descent human being who just wants answers like the rest of us. If there is a heaven i sincerely hope you are granted access as all you are doing is inwardly placing a daemand on GOD if God is Real , there and Listening to reweal himself. You are a realky gifted teacher........ i wish you all the best and ill keep watching. Will you please do a video when youre ready on how to navigate a loving relationship with someome who believes in God and you dont. Also ... if you could talk about your personal feelings on death and reconciling your present belief system as you deal with the certainty of death as an inevitable fate.
Thank you very sincerely for this extremely kind and thoughtful comment. I am sorry to hear about your experiences and frustrations. Wishing the best for us both. I do intend tondo further videos on being in any kind of relationship with a believer but i have addressed a good amount in my “how to come out as an atheist” video. And thanks to this comment i will work on a death video in the soon future! Thanks again
If you find what this channel says even remotely insightful, you are not even trying to learn anything... you are "lukewarm" as the Bible would say.
Interesting .... you have it all figured out. I'm not "Lukewarm" I'm just heavily invested in embracing TRUTH.
@@gametime2473”lukewarm?” 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 Dude, I’m “on fire” for atheism!
@@gametime2473 Whilst... I find your inability to explore why heaven would ever be an imperfect place, or somewhere angels could ever be unhappy or confused in... to be, lukewarm, in terms of basic curiosity, or rigour, maybe.
I knew a most delightful and kind young gay man who came from a fundamentalist Christian background who had tried to go straight and had married and had had a young child. However he fell in love with a man...not a very nice one...and in his subsequent guilt...he convinced himself that he had blasphemed the holy spirit...and, as a result of this belief, he ended his life. So much pain for so many people because of religion.
That is beyond sad. And talk about a cautionary tale on many fronts of religion. Lets see, first trying to be something you are not to appease a god that isnt there. Overwhelming guilt. Believing a ludicrous notion like unforgivable sin from an all loving god. And hopelessness. Yup thats christianity for ya. How utterly sad and unnecessary
This video is brilliant. It is exactly how I've been feeling for so long. I went into a deep, deep depression for a long time because I couldn't make sense of salvation and felt like I could never know if I was saved. Then one day I realized that there probably isn't much I can do, it's really out of my hands. I'm either predestined to be able to follow Jesus or I'm not, and if I'm struggling this much to understand or struggling this much just to be good enough for him then I probably wasn't one of the ones he picked for heaven. It's still very sad and disheartening, but it took a lot off my shoulders just to not have to be so confused anymore. All I can do is hope that if there is an afterlife, which I believe there is, that it's not like what the bible describes.
Hey Kids, what if there is no right answer because different fallible human men had conflicting ideas on salvation, predestination, eschatology etc. ? Maybe we should just live our lives as best we can.
The profound paranoia and psychological destruction caused to me by the concept of "unforgivable sin" and not understanding what it is was a huge part of why I woke up and left Christianity. At some point it just struck me that if God was real and was love, then I wouldn't be in that situation. I was living in a perpetual state of fear that was so bad sometimes that I had to drug myself to sleep just to avoid suicide, I literally couldn't live with thoughts anymore. Christianity almost killed me.