my first video essay! birds of prey is amazing you cant change my mind. follow me on letterboxd lol -- boxd.it/B1aB follow me on instagram too lol -- molliebow?...
wow omg okay this has gotten a lot of views in the past week hello!!??!? i made this last year when i was bored out of my mind and i didnt think this would get more than 10 views so lol this is v weird. thanks for all the kind words! its the first video essay ive made so its a bit rough. i do want to make some more but i have been insanely busy with school. lolol okay thanks thanks thanks this is so weird !!!!
I just started watching this and saw your comment. I got here via a TH-cam rabbit hole, started by a 2021 Grammy artist search, which led to Doja Cat and other artists, which led to the Birds of Prey OST, and eventually here.
Nah the general consensus is that this was a horrible film. Literally not even women went to see it. Then the director blamed men XD. There are many faaaaaaar better characters who don't subscribe to "the male gaze". If you've watched WandaVision its all about a female comic book character who isn't portrayed in a sexual manner. At the end of the day, this movie wasn't good. There are plenty good female characters out there but Harley Quinn in the Dceu is not one of them. Actually now that i think about it Wonder Woman is the perfect example.
in relation to the r rating, margot pushed to have that rating so they could depict harley as the literal insane person she is, the blood and the gore and the swearing etc. r ratings are not limited to sexual scenes
Heterosexual male here. This gets me thinking. When I watch an action movie, I usually prefer when the male lead is sexy. I think most of us would often rather spend two hours in the shoes of a hot, capable man than an ugly or incompetent one. But if the shots sexualize the male protagonist in the way movies tend to sexualize women, I would no longer feel like the point of the character was for me to wish I was him. It would feel instead like the point was for women to wish they had him. I am no longer the intended audience, and the protagonist is no longer an empathetic character. Like, I didn't get anything out of the Twilight movie, because I didn't feel like I was supposed to want to be Edward. The movie wasn't looking 'with' him. It was looking 'at' him. When I look at it that way, I can totally see how that is exactly what film has been doing for decades to women.
yeah this is exactly right. I don't even want to watch suicide squad but sent a picture of harley from birds of prey to a stylist because I think everything she wears in the movie is so badass. Not like she's a role model per see, but at least she's an interesting if not more real person.
100 times and more to what you just said. As a woman, who watched a lot of action movies as young, it's not strange to look back and not remember many instances where I related to the main female character(s) in those movies. As a young child, teen or whichever age, the male gaze or other phenomenon isn't exactly that common to think about, especially a few years back! It's actually a dangerous thing, to have a young girl seeing adult women in action movies being portrayed this way. And very likely for a young boy too, for different, but at the same time for so similar, reasons.
thats exactly why i never liked twilight, even though i fall in the desired audience! like just make a good movie instead of trying to use cheap ways to appeal to audiences
the men who say they “took away her sexiness” are blatantly admitting they only liked harley for her oversexualization and not for who she is as a character lmao. it’s embarassing (edit: added “as a character”)
Her character is the female joker , that’s it , that’s all she is , she’s not a well written character , the only people that like her like her for her looks
I will say, as a somewhat gay woman, I did find Harley more attractive in birds of prey so the fact that some people think they tried to "take away Harley's sexiness" is crazy. They didn't take away her sexiness, they gave her actual character.
it’s such a stupid argument that harley is less sexy in birds of prey, she is still wearing sexy outfits anyways. The difference is in the fact that birds of prey isn’t shot like it’s on phub, and has actual character development
I think the men complaining just want Harley Quinn to be a phub performer disguised as an action movie character. So anything that made her independent and anything that focused on her character or her personality would disappoint them. I'm as shallow as the next person, but I want my heroines to be interesting and not just eye candy. When I want the eye candy, I'll skip Hollywood and jump right to adult content.
Uhm no. It doesn’t have character development and it doesn’t have character. It’s just a really shit movie with poor writing trying to appeal to a toxic crowd that will swallow anything If it fits their agenda. Which is proven by the comments
@@mikeswierczek who said it’s just men complaining. You realise men aren’t the only ones who are capable of criticising a movie for being shit right? Like poor writing is poor writing no matter what sex is viewing it
Which is why it's extremely annoying when instead of taking already existing good female characters and make good movies about them. Hollywood goes for "So this mostly-male movie was succesful, but what if they were all women instead?" approach... Which.. Is just absolutely terrible and mocks the idea of women empowerment, basically trying to build female success of a male based franchise, it's such a stupid idea.
It’s funny that the one tweet said “they literally don’t know who they made the movie for” when they knew exactly who they made it for, it’s just that who they made it for doesn’t include entitled misogynists who just want to see the actress’ body.
do the people who complained about her lack of sexiness even know where she came from? she originated from an animated batman cartoon where we never saw a single millimeter of her skin. That was the original Harley Quinn. Birds of Prey wasn't my favorite, but it was immensely refreshing to not have to stomach the sexualization that pervades so many movies.
@Milomondo yes, she get's sexualized a lot, but my point is that it isn't betraying her character to have her NOT be sexualized, since some people seem to thinks it's not harley if it's not sexy.
Who complained about “her lack of sexiness”?? Seriously who did? I didn’t hear/see people or Men to be exact hate on the movie solely for that reason. It was just a very flawed movie as a whole....
In suicide squad, I understand that Harley's character was by all in aspect for a man's gaze. She was OWNED by the Joker. And that wasnt healthy, birds of prey showed her liberation which in my opinion was a fantastic character Arc. The fact men complain about shows how little they understand the struggles of women...
I mean, you are allowed to think a film is bad still, just because someone disliked Birds of Prey doesn't mean they don't understand the struggles of women (not that I think Birds of Prey did that any particular justice). And honestly the script for Birds of Prey is... All over the place, it's just not a memorable movie. And being better than Suicide Squad is a mockingly low bar. I find it really weird that anyone would place this movie over The Joker, I mean, sure, personal preference and all but still.
@@Dead25m I haven't seen anybody claiming that the movie was better than the movie the Joker. The comment you commented to for sure didn't. It didn't even mentioned the joker movie. So why act like it did say that and be confused by it? Edit: had to correct an autocorrected word
Harley literally wore a thong for the whole of the suicide squad movie. It was ridiculous, can’t imagine how degraded Margot must have felt, she literally asked if she could be more covered and they said no
It's not ridiculous it's beautiful. Also Margo robbie wasn't degraded in any way, she wasn't forced to wear that outfit & she didn't have a issue wearing it so what gives??
"We only like the ORIGINAL and SEXY Harley Quinn!" ...the one where she is wearing a one-piece jester outfit...? Her original costume? "No, not like that!"
one thing you should have mentioned: in the scene where she is putting her shirt on surrounded by men (6:03) literally everyone else is covered head to toe with practical clothes, but of course the only woman is wearing... that
I was gonna respond that El Diablo wasn’t but then I clicked the timestamp abs even he’s wearing more clothes when his main costume is being shirtless.
Also every other character is shown grabbing things for like, half a second, and the shot of her putting that shirt on is way longer. This whole scene had no purpose beyond exposing margot robbie's body :D
@@Idiot77329 One female soldier doesn't take away the fact that scene was purely for the male gaze, they probably put her in there so people had 'ammo' to argue against it
@@therealpotpol4027 i mean like... i guess? she never said her outfit in BoP was the superior one and that was that, just that she liked it more than the SS one because like.. that's her personal preference. why are you so pressed about it lmao
men who are angry aren't angry because "sHe iSnT sExY aNyMoRe", they're angry because they gave harley feelings and emotions and made her human. these men who are angry, they genuinely scare me
I seriously don't know how they justify to themselves that its ok to think that way. "She's happy about who she is and doesn't need male validation?!?! She's choosing to show skin and doesn't do it to please ME?!?! Unexceptable! DISGUSTING!!!" Like no, please, go to jail, immediately.
In suicide squad she was barely Harley Quinn, she was just the hot woman character. I’m so glad birds of prey exists so that people start to realize that Harley Quinn is not Joker’s hot gf anymore
But that's isn't actually a good thing!, the whole idea of harley quinn was the blind love she has for the joker and the craziness that stops her from getting out of that relationship, i love how she's not sexualized anymore but i definitely hate how they made her an independent feminist.
@@kirbyboii9284 just like you said that WAS her whole idea and how can you not like her being a feminist? she was abused by a MAN and will now rage against the patriarchy
@@raccoon9951 but if you actually watch the comics you would know that he have even throw her out of the window and she came back to him? He have been taking credit for her work the whole time but she never got mad at him because she loves him the plot in birds of prey just simply doesn't make sense if you watch harley quinns story, also the whole movie shows every single and i literary mean it every single man as a bad character, even the little fight she's fighting men and they're all jerks, the movie was just offensive to men honestly i'm saying suicide squad was good but both of them was bad, suicide squad sexualized women and birds of prey made all men evil
@@kirbyboii9284 maybe you should be reading the new Harley Quinn comics, she and the joker are no longer dating and she dates Poison Ivy. “offensive to men”? Lol, it’s called punching up, besides literally every single villain in a lot of superhero movies are men, but most of them don’t have female protagonist, so you don’t care, right?
I agree that we shouldn't expect women to be just sexual object in movies but my god, the fact that men were complaining that the women in this movie weren't sexy enough blows my mind DO THEY HAVE EYES
I didn't see anyone making this kind of complaint. Do you have any link? I even checked RT and other sites. Most complaints are that the movie is quite mediocre and has flaws, and it indeed does.
@@mea2429 i mean, "man complaining" seems to be a stretch when these are random screenshots where we don't know who made them. Not saying that there aren't men out there that did complain about it, knowing that twitter is full of weird types of people, but i legit mostly saw fair criticism of this movie.
@@Rihcterwilker i assume the maker of the video found examples of men complaining to put in her video, and left out their names so she didn't dox them... it wouldn't make much sense otherwise. while most criticism probably was fair, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of men were pissy about this movie not catering to them. it honestly happens with every superhero/comic book movie geared more towards women or any minority tbh. a lot of the male nerds throw a fit about it, because the comic book industry is dominated by straight white men, they're not used to female characters being treated with respect and it ruffles their feathers because they can tell it's not for them alone anymore (and a good portion of them are sexist and racist). a lot of "fair criticism" was probably inspired by them just not liking the "feminism" in the movie and its directing. This isn't exactly a thing I can back up with sources, but trust me, I've seen it a lot. I've been a woman into comics and superhero movies since middle school. It's most obvious when it comes to legacy characters. A lot of guys lose it over big mantels like Iron Man being passed on to Iron Heart, a black female teenager, because they think it's politicizing comics (which have been political since the beginning, and the existence of black female teenagers is not political). I wrote a whole research paper on this, so sorry about kind of going on a rant haha. Not trying to have an argument btw would much prefer a civil conversation
I was obsessed with this movie and now I understand why. It was just so powerful and empowering to me, coming from an ex who disrespected me and treated me poorly. The music and the characters really stood out to me. Nobody seemed to get why I enjoyed this film, guess l’ll just have to show them this analysis.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 well yeah there’s a ton of empowering movies but this one is the one that stood out to me. i’ve been a dc fan since i was 11 and harley quinn has always been my favorite female character in the comics. so to see her power through a toxic relationship and see her empowered left me feeling empowered as well. there are dozens of other more empowering films but this one appealed to me cause it was released during one of the darkest parts of my life(relationship) and i’m a dc junkie.
@@alyssa01825 Harley isn't a victim though, she's just as bad as the joker shes even killed him once or twice. I dont understand why do people see harley as a empowering symbol she's literally a psychopath who tortures kids & did assault on nightwing praising her as some kind of abuse survivor is bizarre. What happened to wonder woman being a symbol of empowerment ?? At least diana is a hero while harley is a villain.
Another scene in BoP that I think worth mentioning for this topic was the bar scene where Roman assaulted a female customer. He ordered her to stand on the table and dance, and when she was too scared to comply he threaten her friend into cut her dress. The dress wasn't ripped off all the way, the actress was wearing basic beige bra, and the camera didn't linger on the close-up shot of her but also show the wide shot of the whole bar to witness the horror from other people. I don't even need to say how different it would be if this was done by Male Gaze.
Yes. That’s probably one of my favourite scenes bc it’s so sad and pretty relatable, stayed with me long after the movie ended. It might be too on the nose for some but I liked it’s callousness. BoP has many problems but it does have its moments.
@@Denturess For me, in contrast to the callousness of the scene, I felt that the production side of the scene were handle with utmost care. I couldn't imagine how difficult this type of scene must be for the actresses. Especially when most scenes were shot for more than one takes. Even thought it was acting, her dress was still being cut and pull down, in front of a lot of people. To me, the care of having many women in the decision making positions were shown in how they construct this scene: The actress wore basic beige bra. She only forced to reveal one side of her bra and open back. Which I think show less skin than that Harley Quinn scene in Suicide Squad. Plus the camera seems to show the POV of everyone else in the club. And not the Villain's lecherous gaze. Kudos to the people who construct this scene to be only horrifying and not titillating.
@@Blue_Lunacy Not to mention is shows the fear of the woman herself. Often times, female characters are made to look as though they enjoy (or are at least indifferent to) the male gaze.
Same when Harley was drunk and those guys wanted to take her to their house to r*pe her but Black Canary saved her, that scene really touched me it felt so relatable and so touching that they weren't friends but she still helped her
@@liampatrick3110 go back to the original reply- you need to research what the female gaze ACTUALLY IS. You seem to have a confused impression that it's the same as a male gaze.
It’s so weird cus women can actually relate to male leads in movie’s who have a good character development like in almost every movie, because we see them as their own person, we don’t care about their gender. But I noticed most men barely have the capacity to relate to women characters for some reason. And that’s just weird and feels wrong.
A certain part of that is that most movies with male leads aren't about being men necessarily. There's so many male lead movies that at this point it's the default, and designed to appeal to a broad audience whereas a large chunk of the woman lead movies coming out in the past couple years are by nature about being a woman, and femininity. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not easy for men to relate to.
@@jbain4750 I have to agree with this. Lots of movies with male leads aren't about masculinity and so are probably more easily relatable to women. That's not to say that there are no relatable female leads, but due to underrepresentation of women in major roles it's pretty natural for female leads currently to emphasize the fact that they are female.
That’s actually a really interesting counterpoint. A lot of male lead movies can be gender swapped and it doesn’t change the story. A film like birds of prey is very clearly about women celebrating their womanhood, which is totally fine, but is never going to appeal to men the same way it will to women. The scene where Harley breaks the guys legs is because he came on to her. Is he a jerk? Definitely. But does that warrant having his legs broken? If the male gaze exists and appeals to men’s fantasies then this is a scene showing the female gaze exists as well as it appeals to a woman’s fantasy in wanting to break his legs. I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a female gaze in a film, but it will never appeal to men because it will have us rolling our eyes the same way women do when they see Harley sexualized. I think the lesson to be learned is that the writers should focus on gender neutral stories that don’t objectify women or blatantly insult men, unless it’s a movie made for men or for women.
Lmao the 2 guys that keep replying to top comments with "male gaze doesn't exist, sjw and feminism sucks" is so funny. They say that women are butthurt and snowflakes, yet they find time to reply to every comment that disagrees with them with their "facts" and "logic".
@@garouthetiktokinfluencerhu9731 oh i'm not butthurt. It's actually funny to see this guy commenting so much. If i had to take shot for every comment (of his) i saw i would end up in hospital 😭
@@garouthetiktokinfluencerhu9731 nevere said that djdjsldjshw? Lmao you do you, i do like Lady Dimitrescu from RE and its not beacause of her nice personality 😆. The video is about difference between male and female gaze. She can be hot af lmao i just dont need to see booty shots for every scene she is in and on the other hand there is no eye candy for the female (straight) gaze. And you cant say she wasnt hot in bop, it is margot robbie lmao. its just you see her as character with slight depth + development (even if its not the best writing). In SS her traits were: hot and crazy. And if you read comics you know there is more to her than that. Sorry if this doesnt make sense its 3am and im tired.
It’s the fact that the are literally admitting that they don’t actually want to see real female characters on the screen they want to see the gross sexualized version of women they created in their head.
@@oneboi1580 yeah, but that doesn’t make it okay, that just means there’s a deeper issue within the way women are shown within the media in general- doesn’t matter what form of media it is in.
@@oneboi1580 This. "Hurr durr women are sexualized in comics/movies", meanwhile batman over here is a solid 7 foot of raw muscle, intelligence and money and all men do is go "yo that guy is pretty cool.". Fucking baffles me every time how much people get upset by this type of stuff.
@@alexscoot6594 because men are NEVER portrayed as objects of sexual desire huh? Chiseled hunks splayed on the cover of novels, or angsty rebels in YA centered movies and books. I mean noooo that never happens, only men want to see this stuff because apparently they are the scum of the earth.
Regarding the legs thing, it feels like in Suicide Squad, the camera is stalking Harleen. Whereas in Birds of Prey, it feels like Harley is leading the camera instead.
Yep. The SS camera shot her like she was being filmed by a teen boy through a window 🤮 vs BOP where the camera shot her like a security camera - the first one felt creepy and predatory, and the second felt normal and cooperatively(as in, it was working with her not against her)
I love her outfits in birds of prey, they’re so much better than her fit in suicide squad. They’re so much more pretty and colourful and I feel like it represents her character and personality a lot more than her suicide squad outfit did. I feel like her suicide squad outfit just showed us what the joker wanted Harley to look like and not what she actually wanted
My favorite part of Birds of Prey was how it actually felt like a comic book. Everything from the color palette to the fight scenes (particularly Black Canary's).
@@torreray5819 Lmao, and he's going out of his way to shit on anyone who disagrees with him, dude is everywhere. He's actually said awful things...why go after me?
@@kingkong9892 If it don't apply to you please shut your mouth. We KNOW it's not all but it's too many. And men who keep saying "but not all! BUT NOT ALL!" are part of the problem. You want to be offended so bad. We aren't talking about you if you aren't doing the things that we complain about.
As a guy, I honestly think the original Suicide Squad outfit was disgusting (And that's not even touching on how she was filmed). It feels like it was made by people who make rule34 of Harley and that is at the very LEAST deeply uncomfortable. Birds of Prey's outfit I liked that they went in a different direction after the first one, but to me the color scheme felt off (To clarify, I think the outfit itself was fine, it's literally just the colors that I didn't love). I have heard a lot of guys wish that she had the Timmverse harlequin suit in the movies, and while I think the outfit works well animated, I honestly don't think it would translate to live action. Also the guys complaining that Harley isn't "sexy" in the DCEU are as weird to me as anyone who romanticizes her relationship with the Joker. The outfit from the new Suicide Squad, however, is honestly my favorite Harley outfit I've ever seen in any piece of media. It's got the subtle yet clear black and red colors, it's sleek without being form-fitting and it looks badass. Margot Robbie is a perfectly cast Harley Quinn and I love that they keep bringing her back.
I never really understood why I felt uncomfortable with that scene where Harley dresses up in Suicide Squad. I used to think it was empowering for women because Harley didn't care about all these men staring. You put into words perfectly why it makes me so uncomfortable: the fact that this scene is made for the male audience, which is weird and fucked up in itself, but also that right before the scene ends every male watching this scene gets justification for staring at Harley, since every man in the scene is ALSO staring at Harley. Even the fact that Harley was written to not care is fucked up, because if she doesn't care that they are looking at her almost naked body, why should these men? A gross scene and movie overall.
She's a beautiful woman of course they were going to look, why is it that scene is so horrible to you?? It's not there are thousands of scenes where men are dressed sexy, underdressed & even naked but somehow that's okay, gross double standard.
Well I don't have any interest in looking, so you sure it's for male audience. In fact, I often skip such scenes. Both suicide squad and birds of prey were trash.
It's always so awkward during the slow-pan-of-the-female-character's-body scene. It's so clearly there for men and it's uncomfortable to see as a female viewer. I never could put my finger on why I didn't like those shots and -- ⭐ big surprise ⭐ -- it's because those women were being objectified.
@@GotoMaki4Micah Difference between objectified in film (which I can't see the problem with, most of the time characters are still seen as people rather than objects if it's done right) and sexually objectified, the latter that happens a lot more to one group of people than the other
Tbf, there's plenty of similar shots for male characters like Aquaman and Captain America. But that's ok, because superheroes are, in general, supposed to be pinnacles of a gender attractiveness. I understand it's a bigger problem for female characters as it harms characterisation beyond attractiveness far more often for them, though if the genders are treated equally in this department I wouldn't see an issue with this.
@@1Chasg the thing is, I'm attracted to men but the slow pan shots of them, although less common, are still pretty uncomfortable for me. I guess I just don't like seeing anyone objectified in that way
this further cements in my head that i am in fact not straight, as i never had a problem with those shots. this is unfair😭 (and by not a problem, i mean didn't feel uncomfy, the male gaze is def not okay)
Everyone was critisizing birds of prey saying it was a feminist agenda movie. Wow so taking away the over sexualization of a woman makes it just feminist movie? Men are also complaining now about Lola bunnies new look
I honestly think that her looks in both movie work really well for her character in general. In Suicide Squad she was doing everything FOR Joker. In Bird of Prey she was doing it for HERSELF~
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Nope. She broke the Joker out of the Asylum because she was tricked into it by him lying to her about how misunderstood he told her, he was.
When I watched this in theatres I was absolutely floored by the prison break scene. Harley was fighting in a thin white crop top while there was water pouring down and I had fully expected it to be sexualized since it's the same setup as a wet t-shirt contest, but then it was just...a really fun scene with stunts and interesting combat and THAT was the moment I recognized the difference a female vs. a male director makes
I heard that the stunt company that did John Wick was brought in to do the fight scenes in this movie. That's part of the reason why the fight scenes looks really good. That and most of the leads were trained to do the stunt. Rosie Perez was said to be a real bruiser IRL :D.
There’s nothing wrong with having women show their skin and embrace their sexuality, the issue comes when the male gaze is introduced and degrades women to being sex objects.
I think in general we should stop viewing "embracing our sexuality" as a good thing though. When do men ever feel the need to show skin and _embrace their sexuality?_ when do men need to cake on layers of makeup to feel good about themselves? I think we need to put more focus on normalizing wearing unattractive clothing/not wearing makeup/not constantly preening ourselves because that's where we're chained down by society
oh my goddd shut uppppp. The mental gymnastics you’re doing to avoid just admitting that women are objectified is astounding. doesn’t that get exhausting?? Seriously, aren’t you tired?
@@rex198 Actually in Asia, there are men who uses make up to make themselves more attractive, and some people hate it. They think these guys don't look like guys and only girls should wear make up. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think we should just offer the same respect as we do to everyone regarding their choices. If they want to go out without make up or doing their hair and wearing their comfortable clothes, that should be okay. Likewise, if someone wants to dress up and put on a lot of make up, that should also be okay.
@@daisychong3488 While on the surface your comment seems perfectly nice, it neglects some of the societal factors at play. We don't make choices in a vacuum, and not every choice we make is indicative of what we genuinely want or desire. Every time we make a choice, we have to use some kind of value to prioritize one thing over another -- I'm going to go on a run this morning instead of staying in, because my health is a value, etc. But many, if not most or all of these values are something we are taught by our society and culture. A really obvious example is beauty standards - what men and women find beautiful today is radically different from different societies, cultures, and time periods. When a woman makes the choice to wear a certain outfit, to a small extent she is choosing...and to a larger extent, she is basing her decision off of the beauty standard set by her society. This is why there's more to women putting on makeup, wearing heels, and "expressing" their sexuality. All of these things are originally catered to male gaze. Many women will wear increasingly uncomfortable outfits because it looks sexy, and they will spend a lot of time and money on having the perfect skin, makeup, etc. because they want to look pretty. Predominately, they choose these things despite their costliness and discomfort because society has ingrained in us that "women must be sexy and beautiful." If your "decision" to sexualize yourself is...not only something actively promoted by your society, and actually also caters exclusively to men, how much of your decision is it? The same can be asked of things like sex. If sex is something that society says women should give freely without complaint, it seriously complicates whether or not a woman is truly free to consent to sex in certain situations. Of course I don't mean to undermine a woman's autonomy in any and every situation. I do still think there is free will. But we can't just placate everybody by saying "just respect people's decisions..." because some of "their" decisions aren't really "theirs."
male objectification is nowhere near as prevalent or harmful as female objectification. Can it become a problem? Yes but we'll cross that bridge when we get there and for now we'll focus on more important things.
I didn’t even know this movie received backlash when it came out! I took my best friend to see this movie and was blown away with Harley’s character development from her Suicide Squad debut. Her outfits were so cool too!
I think that Margot Robbie as the producer influenced greatly how birds of prey wasn’t about objectification. She talked in interviews how she had more fun during BOP because Harley is realizing she’s her own person and not there for the joker. I’m glad Margot Robbie is producing what she’s involved in. Bombshell was well done & her character was multi dimensional when she easily could be forced to play the characters are only one dimensional (Sharon Tate-Tarantino’s choice in giving her a little part).
@@liampatrick3110 It's extremely rude of you to say that in a comment section where kids could read it too, and you criticising Margot Robbie makes you appear very Sexist.
Honestly this goes much deeper too. She was designed as a character who is completely dependent on an abusive man. In a show for KIDS. She deserves to break free of that role and I’m happy to see it happen.
I mean now you're just complaining that art can showcase horrible sides of life, kids can get those kind of themes when tastefully done which BTAS in my opinion managed to.
I mean her being stuck in an abusive relationship isn't a bad thing from a character perspective. It makes her interesting and tragic and also makes the Joker even worse of a person but that part of her character is only good if there is some sort of development out of it, good or bad. Actually leaving that abusive relationship is something the character needs, yes. You can write her being stuck in it too but that'd just be depressing.
I prefer how Harley looked in Birds of Prey, in Suicide Sqaud it was way too obvious and hand fisted she was suppose to be eye candy and it was pretty obnoxious. Meanwhile, Birds of Prey actually gave her more character and made the movie much more enjoyable, plus her costume legit just look better.
100% agree. eg. the amount of times in Suicide Squad they have her bend over from the waist with her legs straight (and in several of those shots, the camera is pointed right at her ass eg. when she smashes a shop window and steals a bag) was honestly laughable. They tried way to hard to make her into eye candy for horny guys and it was super distracting. I suddenly went from watching characters in a film to watching a woman who was super aware of the camera on her and how she looked, and wanted to look as sexy as possible at all times, which is just really unnatural to watch and took me out of the film completely. She walks/bends/exists in a physical space like an actual human being (instead of a pinup poster) in Birds of Prey.
@@daisybryar2737 plus I think Birds of Prey did what Suicide Sqaud try to do a lot better. Like Birds of Prey had style and substance and it wasn't like overdone. But in Suicide Sqaud they tried way too hard to make it stylish, but failed and also just handfisted it with like constant licensed music. It was as if a trailer were turned into a movie instead of the other way around.
@@atomicaftershow Yeah I totally agree. It's hard to say what thier intent was in terms of style in Suicide Squad because whatever they wanted to do, they did a bad job of it. It was just visually dark (like every other DC film before then), kind of bland in terms of story, and the script was full of lines that sounded like placeholder until they came up with something more natural (especially the way Slipknot and Katana were introduced). That thing about the trailer, that's actually exactly what they did - they loved the one Trailer Park made for them so they asked them to edit the whole movie, that's why it feel like a 2 hour long trailer.
Thank you so much for making this video and showing some support for Birds Of Prey. This movie got unnecessary hate on social media which it doesn't deserve at all. Birds Of Prey is such a fun movie with great action scenes it only deserves love.
It definitely got neccessary hate, for being sexist, ruining the characters demfeminizing the female characters by removing the Male gaze & pushing toxic intersectional feminism.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Birds Of Prey is Criminally Underrated. It's not only the Best Female led CBM but also one of the Best and Most Unique of it's genre. Birds Of Prey is one of the Best Action Movies Of 21st Century. It has Grounded action not overloaded Cgi fights, so viewers can feel each n every Kick, Punches and Bone Crunches. Birds Of Prey has one of the most Beautiful Cinematography in the Superhero genre. The Visuals are Stunning, Colourful and Eye-catchy. This movie's Soundtrack is just Phenomenal which makes the viewers to revisit it again n again. Birds Of Prey is a Comfort movie for so many people. And you Toxic haters, spread hatred how much u want, it doesn't matter because Birds Of Prey will gonna keep on Winning Hearts. Because Love is Superior than ur hate.
@@Crazyboy-pu2ub No it's not, it's terrible & uninspired & is just a shitshow of a movie & it's a fucking insult by calling it "The best female lead" Comic book movie is just ignorant, & this amount of praise for something so shitty is why we always get very bad female lead movies to begin with, & anybody who says anything negative about it are just "haters or sexists", but the truth is it's nothing but "a girl power gimmick" with lazy choreography, a annoying nothing of a protagonist harley cringe who doesn't develope or become a better person & cries about the joker like a f-ing loser, bad characters, stupid inept male villains who just exist to get kicked in the balls, and nothing but propaganda it's a insult to comic movies everywhere & is extremely alienating & sexist. There was absolutely nothing interesting or compelling about this movie, the story was shallow and dumb the whole movie is about "getting over joker", like a cringy bad romance sitcom, it feels like it's straight out of a bad fanfic wattpad story. Harley doesn't change or see the errors of her ways, or see that she helped destroy millions of people's lives nope it's all about her & her getting her "agency back" because the writers somehow think she's "a poor innocent victim of that so called patriarchy", because of her being "Sexualized" in the suicide squad movie, and display that mindset in bop where every dude is a terrible person, especially roman sionis who is retconned into being a insecure sexist dudebro, yeah this movie is horrible especially with people Glorifying harley being absolutely evil, but act like the men's Actions are irredeemable I feel like this movie is brainwashing people especially women to not like men The message in this movie is despicable, shallow and is a embarrassment for a comic book film it deserved to underperform.
I remember reading all these bad stuff about birds of prey but still deciding to go and watch it because I'm just a huge Harley Quinn fan (talking about only guys reading comics... -.-) and then leaving the theater thinking wtf, this movie is amazing...So thanks male critics for nearly stopping me from watching an amazing film! I also don't get why so many people always want her paired with the Joker...have they seen her with Poison Ivy?! That's the real power couple!
She was originally made as a sidekick to the Joker. Having Harley with anyone else besides the Joker is like having Robin with anyone else besides Batman. It just seems historically off.
@@greywolf7577 She has cut herself free from the abusive relationship with the Joker and is now her own villain, who is doing things for herself. Her crawling back to the Joker wouldn't make sense after the course of events.
This was such a good essay, everything was clear and concise and well put, I had never thought about how many different ways the male gaze can find its way into the final result, I had always just thought about it as a problem with the writers. Its interesting to think about the ways its used within that and also how its applied beyond that. Thank you!!
I remember this guy saying he hated the movie cuz it was a "feminazi" movie. Like, how? Cuz the girls weren't in skimpy outfits and the beat they male villian?
My brother said he didn't like it and thought it was unrealistic because all the men in the movie were bad people. Like?? unfortunately that's not unrealistic at all...
amazing, amazing video please keep up the awesome content! this was so incredibly accurate and descriptive and really what fans of harley need to see and recognize. thank you so much for this vid!
Very nicely put together and very clearly explained. The fact that you took parallel examples really drives home the point very well. I know you said this seems a bit rough because it's your first video essay but it's rough only in terms of some supers and visuals which are not that important anyway - but in terms of explaining your point and backing it up it's very nicely done.
What's most annoying is how the male gaze is transferred over to real life. I remember coming into school one day looking pretty disheveled and tired due to a bunch of work I had the last few days. I didn't look horrible, I just wore what was comfortable, threw my hair in a bun, and didn't both to touch an ounce of makeup. When I got to school, guys asked me "why would you leave the house like that? aren't you worried about what you look like?" I simply told them that I didn't care today since my energy was devoted to other things and I just wanted to be comfortable. When I gave them my answer, they realized that I didn't care if I was trying to be visually appealing to them or not; they were offended I was dressing for myself, not for them. Men have become so accustomed to having women dress according to the male gaze that when a woman finally takes agency over something as simple as how she looks in a given day, they feel angry and as if something that is owed to them has been taken away.
100 bucks says that those guys also showed up to school everyday wearing the same hoodie they've worn all week & dirty cargo shorts, because of course the same standards they have for women don't apply to them. If there's anything men have, its the audacity
I know the feeling! I can't count the times men (and teenage boys) told me, begged be not to put my hair in a bun or ponytail because "it didn't suit me". they'd rally: one would start and that one or two more would always agree. dudes I just want my hair out of my face so I can actually see what I'm doing lol. my solution is to keep my hair short now and I know that many men find me unattractive just because of that and I don't care because that just weeds out the really bad ones at least. win for me.
That sounds less like male gaze and more a social issue because I'm sure there is someone with your exact same story except the guy is another girl , another where the guy is dressing extra sloppy and he gets ragged on .
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Did they NOT say that there is a difference between sexy and sexist? Is putting words in people's mouths your favorite hobby?
@@Chiller-pc1dv I'm not putting words in their mouths, it speaks for itself again look at how all comics nowadays make women into literal teenage boys & teela being completely masculine these people are doing that to combat this evil "Male gaze" at this point I actually prefer that because "Woke feminist gaze" is the opposite of good for women.
The male gaze is a big problem in todays rape and assault scenes. The women get all dressed up with perfect hair and make up and then after, or even worse, during the assault the male gaze is all over the victim.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 What is stupid exactly? You already dismissed the fact that women actually do get objectified, covering your eyes like it doesn't exist....what now? You gonna do the same for the fact that women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted and or harrassed by men? Because statistics can VERY easily prove you wrong
As a woman who loves women it is interesting to see how my feminist beliefs and my attraction for women coexist. I find women the most sexy when they are confident and comfortable. And maybe that comes from my experience of also being a woman but I thought it was just interesting how I view sexy women vs how my straight male peers seem to view them.
Right? Like, women are at their MOST attractive when they're being... human i guess is the best word. Like, women just like... exist, and be happy and confident and awesome and that's hot??? I swear, if writers so badly want to write their female characters as "attractive" write them as attractive to anyone other than straight, allosexual men, because apparently that'll get you real women 90% of the time!
This is sosoos relateable, I just find straight men(not all) so absolutely disgusting, they sexualize things over the top, as much as they can. And the way they talk is so gross and I could never talk about women the way they do, no matter how attractive.
The male gaze seriously made it difficult for me to realize I was attracted to women for a looooong time. Women directed by women are so attractive it’s UNREAL.
"I have hardly ever met a woman in real life as unremarkable as the women in movies, and I have hardly ever met a man in real life as remarkable as the men in movies"
The male gaze is real. I saw a comment where a guy was complaining about "too much makeup ruining a woman's attractiveness". Still awful, when I said that I found her attractive (I'm bisexual) he said that my judge of attractiveness wasn't valid. Some guys actually feel entitled to judge a woman's worth based on her looks and sexual appeal. It really makes me upset. Edit: This comment blew up, and with that comes more people expressing their views and opinions. Thank you to those being polite, I try to be open minded and will listen to your thoughts. The term "male gaze" doesn't apply to all men and is flawed for that reason. I don't in any way mean to say preferences are invalid but criticism for people not fitting them is inappropriate and wrong.
@@liampatrick3110 Yes? I don't doubt that there are negative portrayals of men in the media. The thing is, it's not really relevant to this video in particular. It's just not the focus. Not a whole lot of men are supposed "heroes" (or at least anti-heroes, like the main characters of suicide squad) but just seen as sexual.
@@noeyedgirl Are you kidding me. There are many negative portrayals of men in movies including birds of prey, Black Christmas, Charlie's Angel's & Captain marvel making every dude either useless, idiotic or sexist & men are literally killed & slapped by women & its seen as a joke stop lying it makes you look incredibly ignorant.
Men also had a complaint about the men in this movie not being "sexy suave villains" or something, but that was the point. This movie highlighted the debauchery of Gotham city, as disgusting, vile, and not glamorous. We see Gotham not from Bruce Wayne's perspective, but from poor unfortunate Harley, downtrodden and stuck in a man run police force Montoya, bad situation Black Canary, a runaway and an assassin. Their lives are shit, and so are the men in it. The men in their lives are abusers, are vile, disgusting, misogynists, and while they might think they're hot shit, the women definitely don't think they are. Most rapists are weak men who can't control themselves and definitely don't deserve better.
This reminds me of how men complained about the male characters in Orange Is the New Black. The series portrayed men without any sugar coating and heroisation - they were shown as cowards posturing as alphas, misogynists, homophobes, rapist, opportunistic idiots, etc. yet I found all of these characters as reminiscent of men I knew in real life. That was actually refreshingly realistic. Men are used to being spoiled by heroic portrayals, seeing themselves as 'good guys' but in reality all men have flaws, and a lot of the time men downright suck. There is no 'good guy/ bad guy' dichotomy, just men who consider themselves better than they actually are.
Don't forget that they like to use the word "woke" (derogatory) to describe anything that doesn't cater to them to dismiss its value. They really are so delicate.
THIS is my entire issue with the mindset that radical feminist have, you treat all men like they are inherently misogynistic, sexist and probably rapists and act like they should be ashamed of being born as a certain gender which may I remind you, is sexist. You people seem to be nearly as bad as the ones who claim there getting an abortion if their child isn’t a girl
I feel pretty bad for the guys who can't see that a confident, empowered woman with agency can be a sexy thing. It says something that they feel a need to be in an aggressively dominant position and are uncomfortable when they're not.
Right?! This may be off topic a little, but I've seen a lot of men online saying their girlfriend/wife needs to be obedient and submissive, but wouldn't that just be boring? I kinda feel like having someone who never disagrees with you or never has their own opinion around would just be a chore...
@@Steph-bx6yu it's a power fantasy. Most men who favor "weak" women have self esteem issues. They are wishing for a woman who's only purpose is to empower them, because they lack that power in real life. I thinks that there's nothing that's more satisfying then a partner that is my equal.
Margo Robbie is an incredible actress and it sucks that she was so sexualized in suicide squad she even said in an interview that she was very uncomfortable in how little she had to wear and that she wasn’t going to do that again if they wanted her to play Harley again I’m glad birds of prey was much different.
I haven't seen either movie but I heard from a guy I know who says birds of prey is so much better. Not trying to defend men, just letting you know there are some good ones out there...
And the boots, i remember watching suicide squad and sighing so hard when i saw those boots, sooooo unrealistic, who jumps onnthose ???? Who male figh scenes on those ???? Comics desing on women or superherous outfits are so trashy .... ewwww, only wonder woman look somehow awesome and thats cuz its tye least sexualized dc character, maybe cuz she is a demigod
@@tommj4365 I'm sorry but what are you talking about? She didn't say anywhere in the comment that "all men are like this". If I'd get a dollar everytime someone says "NoT Alllll mEn" I'd be rich! That being said we know that's not the case. In-fact I don't understand why so many people think it's only women who complain about objectifying women, a lot of guys don't think it's good either.
i loved both versions but i love bop harley because through outfit changes you can also see her grow as a person and realize she doesn’t need to please anyone
Margot Robbie did mention she was not comfortable in her suicide squad outfit. This alone speaks for itself if you ask me. I believe ALL actors should feel safe and comfortable on set, men and women, but especially women.
Especially women? Fam neither men nor women's feelings are more valid or important than one another. Men have just as much of a right to comfort as women and vice versa.
I Feel (and hope) that what she meant by "especially women" was that men already feel comfortable on set for the most part. There's less of an evolution needed for men to be comfortable on set, so the change has to be made "especially for women" so that in the end they're both equally comfortable. Not saying there are no occasions where men could be uncomfortable, Hollywood also has its loads of shirtless guys, but it's still less blatant and that's probably what Emily Clark meant. Not that women should be more comfortable on set than men, but that there's more work to be done on women's side.
@@Sims_it What a beautiful reconciliation, thank you for this comment. It's important not to inadvertently fight against those who are on the same side as oneself.
The clothes really hits different!! In SS her clothes are tight, and "artfully torn", it just seems uncomfortable, a literal costume, in BOP however, we get a crop top paired with loose, loud jacket, they're both crop tops, but the BOP's clothes have way more personality, and is not there solely to attract men, it seems way more like something a real person would wear on a daily life rather than just a costume
There’s also a nice parallel to her arc in that. In Suicide Squad she’s still all about impressing Joker, what she’s wearing is just a costume, where in Birds of Prey she’s becoming her own person.
They should have gave her the red and black pants in SS instead if them stupid ass shorts. Sure she looks good but i didn't come to see a comic book movie so i could stare at half naked versions of characters. I came to enjoy the story of the movie.
Something I always noticed on movies about or with woman directed by man, is how when they present a woman they do close up of her legs, ass, boobs, always highlighting her body. While with men, they present objects that reflect their personality and how badass they are or something.
Aquaman, Captain America, Thor and Superman are the pinnacles of male physical attractiveness, with plenty of shots showing that off in the movies. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know this issue is way worse for females, as they are characterised solely by their appearance way more often. I just wanted to point out that those shots can also make young guys feel self-conscious about themselves, just like it can for women too. This shouldn't be a male v female issue. We should work things out together, encouraging equality and not further segregation between the sexes by fighting each other.
@@1Chasg Also, another thing kinda off is how when it comes to those kinds of movies they’re usually for 12-16 year olds so kinda weird how they add so many half naked man on a movie that’s supposed to be for teens....
Remember girls and boys: if fans of a movie franchise complain and whine so much about a character not being sexy anymore, it only proves that the character didn’t have a good personality in the first place and/or was valued by viewers only for their sexiness.
Now I want to watch birds of prey. As a woman it is really frustrating to see so many women on screen only being there to please the desires of the male viewer and not as something for the women (and men of course)in the audience to identify with or to understand. I really changed the way many women see themselves when all they see in media is an idealized, objectified and Characterless, voiceless representation of women
thinking more about this, also largely explains why I often dislike female characters in action movies or movies that are generally more"male" oriented. You know, that extra woman they had to fit into a group of men because otherwise the lack of female representation is too obvious... but as a woman watching you kind of just dislike this woman.. It's because she barely is a person and really is not there for the female viewer to relate to but for the male viewer to drool over.. Wish the world were different
@@gwencaster6485 As a man, it is frustrating to see people bash the "male gaze" as if there is something wrong with men being attracted to hot women. I think a lot of women think that there are scenes that are made for men and thus shouldn't be made since to them scenes should only have women in mind apparently. The women who complain about the "male gaze" never complain about attractive men in movies, of course, because it benefits women.
@@greywolf7577 hot men are not dehumanized.... they have ideas, personalizes and other things besides their looks (hell some men BECOME hotter through their personality) that's why we don't "complain"
@@greywolf7577 You took that wrong, from a pansexual girl point of view let me tell you I am both atracked to men and women and I like to see them hot ofc but the appearance is not the problem in my opinion everybody feels different about costumes and looks in movies I personaly don't mind revealing clothes cuz I wear them too, well the problem is female characters are always so underrated in male action movies and idolazed, they don't have enough story and depth and also what is bothering me the most is that they are strong but not stronger than the male protagonist, they are always in the shadow of males, ik its hard to understand because you are a male and don't notice those things but I hope someday you will change your point of view and start to notice how media handles things
I went to see this movie with my dad, brothers, and uncle, and all throughout it I felt like it wasn’t made for my brothers or Dad or Uncle like usual, it was made for ME. It was made for me and my sister and my friends. It felt so good to finally see a movie that was made BY people like me, FOR people like me. There was no instance where I rolled my eyes at how sexualized she was, at no point did I get uncomfortable sitting next to men and knowing they were looking at her sexually while I, someone like her, sat next to them. It was made for ME. I loved it. Can’t praise this movie enough for being brave enough to entirely throw the male gaze to the side for their female viewers.
Thank you for wording it like this!! I was never ever awkward about simply watching a sex scene in a movie with my family, i was awkward knowing that certain scenes were there for men, such as my father to enjoy a woman's body while I sat watching with him 🤢 (for the record my dad is a fantastic feminist and is very aware of issues like the male gaze in films etc)
@@vmcintosh8956 exactly!! It’s such an uncomfortable and icky feeling to be sat by a family member while watching a scene that was clearly made for them to enjoy, no matter how aware or unaware they are of women’s issues. So glad your dad is so aware!
I grew up with mostly females and felt incredibly uncomfortable at a very young age as they commented and drooled on every hot guy in films, making me feel ugly as I never was as attractive... I know I'm likely an exception and this in no way comes close to what females feel in your position, but if it's even 1/100th of the feeling, then I sorta, maybe, tiny bit understand... at least I want to try to :( sorry...
@@tommj4365 that’s definitely what it feels like! Just a bit worse, since the female gaze in movies focuses on strength and power in men, and the male gaze focuses on vulnerability and a lack of power in women.
I remember a bunch of men were mad that harley was kicking ass against men twice her size and said it was unrealistic but said it was fine that a guy dressed up like a bat to fight crime.
I mean, there are differences. For one, Batman canonically has a 9-pack (thank you LEGO). But more seriously, as long as the costume actually looks intimidating, it’s believable that Batman can actually fight criminals effectively with fear. The reason it’s not believable that Harley can beat up people twice her size with mostly brute strength (combine with some acrobatics) but it is believable that superheroes exist in this universe is internal consistency. If superheroes exist, that’s fine as long as someone in that universe doesn’t deny something impossible because they don’t think the science works with it. A powerless (as in no superpowers) woman somehow having how strength than people with twice as much muscle mass brings into question the point of even having said muscle strength. This is actually a reason why I like Cara Dune in the Mandalorian. She has a lot of muscle, so it makes total sense when she can overpower similarly strong people, such as her arm wrestle with Mando. Sorry for the essay, it’s just that argument is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, even though the intent is good.
Yeah a woman with barely any muscle mass who knows acrobatics (nothing to do with fighting) and has basic fighting skills is the same as a male with peak physical strength who trains regularly, has a whole list of fighting styles he knows and has high tech gadgets to aid him with his body and skills, yeah a good comparison.
The point Is that this Is fiction lmao why are you coming with fAcTs about Batman when these are fictional characters? Do y'all really think DC cares about realism? Lmao
@@kenunot6106 Keeping somewhat realism in fiction is still important, would it be beliavable for you if Roman suddenly showcased the ability to shoot lasers from his eyes despite him not doing that the whole movie?
I am shocked at the like/dislike ratio on this video. Over 1 million views and overwhelming likes? I feel like that wouldn't have been the case years ago. I love seeing that! Cheers to all the men watching, listening, and finally understanding. Please keep listening and having conversations with other men. We need more allies. (Also fantastic video, really well done for your first video essay! Glad I watched it :))
Just realized with your comment on her SS shirt labeling her as belonging to another man, the shirt she wears in most of BOP has her own name on it. Thus tying back in to Harley taking back control of her life and agency. I can’t wait for conventions to come back so I can wear that shirt for my own Harley cosplay.
Not to mention, she rips off the only signifier she has of the Joker - her J necklace - in like the first 10 minutes of the movie. They really said fuck the Joker lmao
@@GotoMaki4Micah No one said that you bitchbaby. I've seen your other comments and how you get offended at even the slightest thing is pathetic to say the least.
the SS shirt was cause of how obsessed she was with the Joker. For a while she felt like he was her only reason for anything but she grows and gets autonomy and I love how BOP portrays that.
This video made me realize that the makers of BoP probably added scenes that paralleled Suicide Squad on purpose to remove the male gaze perspective and take back control of the character.
“Take back control” is a bit much there. DC Comics will always have “control” over the character technically. The creators of BOP don’t own Harley. One movie won’t change that.
Another thing i find really neat about the introductory shot of BOP is that Harley is, seemingly very deliberately, walking on top of the line of the floor tiles, as if working on a fine line or doing a balancing act. If you choose to read into this image you can infer characteristics about Harley, as opposed to the Suicide Squad counterpart, where all the information we can get about the character being introduced is ''sexy''
I remember growing up I had this one issue. As kids all girls wore shorts and crop tops and nobody ever said anything, it was considered cute. But the moment we reached puberty and still wore the same kind of clothes it started attracting looks, we were often criticized and often punished for it. A lot of girls were simply confused because although the changes in our bodies were visible we were way too young to understand how people viewed us. It took me a while to realize that it wasn't my body that changed so drastically as it was the gaze. It used to be adults looking at a child, now it's men looking at a woman. And the fact that we're still shamed for that really sux.
THIS. Why should the victims have to change their behaviour? Like it's their fault? Oh you were touched up, well you were wearing that top so what did you expect? SICK.
YUP! Ugh, when I was 12 I was outside just kicking my football wearing my favorite stretchy jeans because you could move in them, they were like tights. I didn't think about it but my body had started to change. And two guys came up to me and asked if I wanted to have sex....I'm sorry but I was clearly a kid?!? What is wrong with their brains?!
huh in my life it was very diffrent, anyone could get away with breaking ayn physical barriers with clothes, but you couldn't put your hoodie up or else your the devil, whats more when i was younger it was seen as insane for a child to where those sorts of clothes and extremely creepy,
@@GotoMaki4Micah Okay but the multiverse exists. So there is a version of Harley Quinn that left Joker, and that is a feminist. There is a version of Harley Quinn where their origin story doesn't involve Joker. There is a version of Harley where Joker is Harley! Multiverse allows for anything you think of to be real in one of the universes. Isn't there an official version where Batman is a vampire (not Bruce Wayne though)?
The whole thing about the costume not even being the biggest issue is so true, it's the way it's presented. Harley wore less revealing outfits in Birds of Prey but I'm pretty sure that she could wear the exact same things she wore in Suicide squad and still feel more like a person rather than an object, all because of the way she is presented/filmed in BOP.
Agreed, although I think the more pertinent 'male gaze' in Suicide Squad is not so much the scene discussed here as later during the film when it's raining most of the time. Harley has discarded her jacket by then, so the view is of her wet t-shirt clinging to her body. The other female member of the squad, Katana, is not presented in the same manner. I might argue that, whilst the Suicide Squad costume is certainly male gazey, Harley herself is well aware of the effect it has on the men (and women too) watching her put her clothes on. She 'knows what boys like' as the song goes, and that can give her power over them. The same thing is true of the dancing scene from Suicide Squad. She begins by being partly obscured by the curtain, and far from being simply portrayed for the benefit of male viewers (although that factor certainly exists) she is also being (willingly?) used as bait and weapon to trap the gangster who's come to meet Joker, and who is subsequently killed by him. The dancing scene in BoP is not quite the same, as the guy whose legs are broken when Harley jumps onto him, is not trying it on with her as claimed here. Quite the opposite. He's pissed that Harley tossed her drink over the woman he was trying to get with (perhaps that was why she did it.... to split them up) and tells her to shut up. Harley Quinn may be crazy, but there's very often a method to her madness.
@@ShanghaiRooster dude, this cliche it’s for the MALE GAZE. Just like how we are usually the most interesting character in the room because men are actually well written, but only women seem to be portray like this; poison ivy, cat women, black widow etc etc. You get my point. Explaining the reason why she is being sexualize doesn’t change the fact that she is still being sexualize.
@@anymarcos2355 I have to disagree with you. The context is all. When you have ass shots in a film, or indeed some bare-chested male shots, those are usually done for the 'benefit/titillation' of people in the audience. They have nothing to do with the actual story. The other side is demonstrated quite well by this scene from Fast & Furious 5 - th-cam.com/video/UjKf5df2qV4/w-d-xo.html. Sure, it's objectifying Gal Gadot, but in the context of what is happening during this scene, where she is using her feminine wiles to get close to the guy the team is targeting and complete the mission, I think that's fine. Her character is in control of what she is doing, unlike for example a lot of the gratuitous shots by Joss Whedon in his version of Justice League (2017), such as here th-cam.com/video/dNwahbgU2sU/w-d-xo.html (1:02) or the infamous Flash face plant.
The crazy thing is that yk it’s wrong when even kids find it uncomfortable. I remember my 7 year old brother at the time being like wtf at the scene where Harley is changing
She was doing everything for the joker in suicide squad, she was acting the way the joker wanted her to act because she was under his control because of the psychological reconditioning she endured from him so I feel like the way the movie was shot was appropriate because at that point in time she was just an object under the jokers control but then she broke up with him and became her own person in birds of prey.
Her jacket used to read "property of the joker" in the first movie but in the second movie it reads "live fast die clown" and her shoulder tattoo used to also read "property of the joker" and now reads "property of no one" further showing how she's moved on from the joker and has become her own individual person.
@@Nemisis007 Yes, but the issue with this is that SS didn’t give much (or any) scenes that depicted that ‘ownership’ as bad. I agree that maybe some of that was a conscious choice, but it’s simply bad directing if they didn’t highlight that fact in some way (maybe in one of her more sensitive scenes?). It would’ve really added some dimensionality to her character in SS.
Thats a cool interpretation but I really, really, really, really, really doubt David "lets get cara delevigne to run naked in the woods for...reasons" Ayer was thinking when he wrote that. And I have an easier time believing that Cathy Yan just didn't like how harley looked/was presented in suicide squad and wanted to change that. I doubt it was some convoluted and obscure lore fuckery. Basically Ayer wanted to see Margot Robbie in some suggestive clothing and Yan thought that shit was lame so she changed it
I'm curious what the author thinks of things like Cuties or Sigourney Weaver wanting to be nude at the end of Aliens... those are maybe more complex or nuanced examples to explore? This video was so well done, I wanna hear more...
i hated suicide squad for that. they turned the joker and harley quinn’s abusive relationship into one big fetishization. like, i doubt couples would want to be like them if they kept it the same as the comic books.
To be fair to Ayer, I think that might’ve been WB’s doing. Apparently there were a lot of scenes of Joker’s abuse that were cut along with a whole arc of Harley leaving him to keep fighting with the Suicide Squad that got cut because the abuse made test audiences uncomfortable (which yeah, abuse should make you uncomfortable, that’s the fucking point).
Wait...we want people to want to be like the Joker and Harley Quinn? Why? I mean shouldn't we allow for characters that display things that are not to be aspired to?
But their relationship is a BDSM, daddy/LG. It’s not meant to be romantic or sweet. The Joker is basically Harleys addiction and true love. She’s driven crazy by this love. Look all round DC there’s lots of crazy dysfunctional love. Batman and Catwoman are even more crazier
wow omg okay this has gotten a lot of views in the past week hello!!??!? i made this last year when i was bored out of my mind and i didnt think this would get more than 10 views so lol this is v weird. thanks for all the kind words! its the first video essay ive made so its a bit rough. i do want to make some more but i have been insanely busy with school. lolol okay thanks thanks thanks this is so weird !!!!
Your video essay was insanely well made ! I hope you continue making these type of videos . Your wording and talking pace is also really good.
You should so make more!! This was really good, very well presented and everything!
Make more!! Keep it going!!
I just started watching this and saw your comment. I got here via a TH-cam rabbit hole, started by a 2021 Grammy artist search, which led to Doja Cat and other artists, which led to the Birds of Prey OST, and eventually here.
you have a really nice voice
not men complaining she's not being objectified anymore lmao
It's crazy lmaoo
Nah the general consensus is that this was a horrible film. Literally not even women went to see it. Then the director blamed men XD. There are many faaaaaaar better characters who don't subscribe to "the male gaze". If you've watched WandaVision its all about a female comic book character who isn't portrayed in a sexual manner. At the end of the day, this movie wasn't good. There are plenty good female characters out there but Harley Quinn in the Dceu is not one of them. Actually now that i think about it Wonder Woman is the perfect example.
@@onyankopon1264 i think that's more of a personal opinion yk
@@ziziisme Not many people watched the movie but the few that did seemed to like it according to rotten tomatoes. But the movie is very flawed.
He explains ot better than i do
in relation to the r rating, margot pushed to have that rating so they could depict harley as the literal insane person she is, the blood and the gore and the swearing etc. r ratings are not limited to sexual scenes
Aw that's actually epic
Exactly! Birds of prey would be so different if it wasn’t as violent.
imagine a harley that was kid friendly 😐
(not you cartoon show harley you can stay)
@@jfduug4994 that would be super weird.
Her jumping on the guy’s knees in the club gives me nightmares, so yeah, it should have an R rating
Heterosexual male here. This gets me thinking. When I watch an action movie, I usually prefer when the male lead is sexy. I think most of us would often rather spend two hours in the shoes of a hot, capable man than an ugly or incompetent one. But if the shots sexualize the male protagonist in the way movies tend to sexualize women, I would no longer feel like the point of the character was for me to wish I was him. It would feel instead like the point was for women to wish they had him. I am no longer the intended audience, and the protagonist is no longer an empathetic character.
Like, I didn't get anything out of the Twilight movie, because I didn't feel like I was supposed to want to be Edward. The movie wasn't looking 'with' him. It was looking 'at' him. When I look at it that way, I can totally see how that is exactly what film has been doing for decades to women.
yeah this is exactly right. I don't even want to watch suicide squad but sent a picture of harley from birds of prey to a stylist because I think everything she wears in the movie is so badass. Not like she's a role model per see, but at least she's an interesting if not more real person.
100 times and more to what you just said. As a woman, who watched a lot of action movies as young, it's not strange to look back and not remember many instances where I related to the main female character(s) in those movies. As a young child, teen or whichever age, the male gaze or other phenomenon isn't exactly that common to think about, especially a few years back! It's actually a dangerous thing, to have a young girl seeing adult women in action movies being portrayed this way. And very likely for a young boy too, for different, but at the same time for so similar, reasons.
thats exactly why i never liked twilight, even though i fall in the desired audience! like just make a good movie instead of trying to use cheap ways to appeal to audiences
Your first point is interesting. When I'm watching an action movie I don't have a preference for a sexy male or female lead. Just me?
I love this perspective, very good points!
the men who say they “took away her sexiness” are blatantly admitting they only liked harley for her oversexualization and not for who she is as a character lmao. it’s embarassing
(edit: added “as a character”)
Her character is the female joker , that’s it , that’s all she is , she’s not a well written character , the only people that like her like her for her looks
@@mymanslippy can you elaborate on that? Because I don’t agree, but I want to see what your sources are before i explain or elaborate anything
Offtopic but omg your kurapika pic really just made my bottom half do all these emotions 👽👽
That's a lie, men that are comics fans know about her character stop stereotyping men as sex animals.
@@mymanslippy She was better being the jokers girlfriend, Now shes just insufferable.
I will say, as a somewhat gay woman, I did find Harley more attractive in birds of prey so the fact that some people think they tried to "take away Harley's sexiness" is crazy. They didn't take away her sexiness, they gave her actual character.
exactly, she is a human being, not a piece of meat.
"as a somewhat gay woman" ... don't call yourself something you're not 100% sure of being. This is very problematic for actual gay women.
@@bulbasaur1232 she’s probably bisexual and as a lesbian I don’t find it problematic or insulting at all :)
I’m bi and I agree
@@bulbasaur1232 how is that very problemtic lol. there are bigger issues in the world bruv
it’s such a stupid argument that harley is less sexy in birds of prey, she is still wearing sexy outfits anyways. The difference is in the fact that birds of prey isn’t shot like it’s on phub, and has actual character development
I think the men complaining just want Harley Quinn to be a phub performer disguised as an action movie character. So anything that made her independent and anything that focused on her character or her personality would disappoint them.
I'm as shallow as the next person, but I want my heroines to be interesting and not just eye candy. When I want the eye candy, I'll skip Hollywood and jump right to adult content.
@@mikeswierczek these other men secretly want all their content to be eye candy. Because male privilege.
Uhm no. It doesn’t have character development and it doesn’t have character. It’s just a really shit movie with poor writing trying to appeal to a toxic crowd that will swallow anything If it fits their agenda. Which is proven by the comments
@@mikeswierczek who said it’s just men complaining. You realise men aren’t the only ones who are capable of criticising a movie for being shit right? Like poor writing is poor writing no matter what sex is viewing it
@@mikeswierczek also Harley didnt have any personality in the movie. She was a toxic character with an empty personality
Love it when female characters are just that... Actual characters 💁🏽♀️
Which is why it's extremely annoying when instead of taking already existing good female characters and make good movies about them.
Hollywood goes for "So this mostly-male movie was succesful, but what if they were all women instead?" approach... Which.. Is just absolutely terrible and mocks the idea of women empowerment, basically trying to build female success of a male based franchise, it's such a stupid idea.
They already are.
@@Dead25m you're exactly right, the sad thing is idiots & normies will eat this shit up, it seriously needs to stop.
@@Dead25m idk man but I think Harley Quinn and all of the female characters in Birds of Prey have always existed as, well... FEMALE characters 🤔
@@_tripalong They were very 1 dimensional characters same thing with harley she was just terrible.
It’s funny that the one tweet said “they literally don’t know who they made the movie for” when they knew exactly who they made it for, it’s just that who they made it for doesn’t include entitled misogynists who just want to see the actress’ body.
Then they shouldn´t complain when those "entitled misogynists" decided not to watch the movie (and they complained).
You're a idiot their is no "Entitled misogynists" who had issues with this movie stop Strawmanning & lying & putting words in mens mouths.
can a woman be a misogynist?
@@mimosasseat9860 yes, but you're not if you call these people out for being hypocritical.
Which is why this "superior" movie made all of five bucks.
They transferred all the male-gaze directing towards that egg sandwich.
That sure was a sexy sandwich
to be fair, it was a really hot sandwich
Yeah..... And I was SO HAPPY for Harley when she finally got to eat it
Maybe this was the kind of ‘moist maker sandwich’ Ross Gellar was talking about 🤔
As a fellow breakfast-food-lover, this was the most relatable love story in cinema history for me.
do the people who complained about her lack of sexiness even know where she came from? she originated from an animated batman cartoon where we never saw a single millimeter of her skin. That was the original Harley Quinn.
Birds of Prey wasn't my favorite, but it was immensely refreshing to not have to stomach the sexualization that pervades so many movies.
@Milomondo yes, she get's sexualized a lot, but my point is that it isn't betraying her character to have her NOT be sexualized, since some people seem to thinks it's not harley if it's not sexy.
Who complained about “her lack of sexiness”?? Seriously who did? I didn’t hear/see people or Men to be exact hate on the movie solely for that reason. It was just a very flawed movie as a whole....
@@Lil_Valor i saw some people complaining on twitter before i deleted my account.
Well techn8cally in tge animated series we do see her in a lingerie and nurse getup once but still with makeup and mask
@@Lil_Valor i agree w you, i have no idea who these women are talking about, majority of ppl hated the film bc it sucked to be frank.
In suicide squad, I understand that Harley's character was by all in aspect for a man's gaze. She was OWNED by the Joker. And that wasnt healthy, birds of prey showed her liberation which in my opinion was a fantastic character Arc. The fact men complain about shows how little they understand the struggles of women...
I mean, you are allowed to think a film is bad still, just because someone disliked Birds of Prey doesn't mean they don't understand the struggles of women (not that I think Birds of Prey did that any particular justice). And honestly the script for Birds of Prey is... All over the place, it's just not a memorable movie.
And being better than Suicide Squad is a mockingly low bar.
I find it really weird that anyone would place this movie over The Joker, I mean, sure, personal preference and all but still.
@@Dead25m I haven't seen anybody claiming that the movie was better than the movie the Joker. The comment you commented to for sure didn't. It didn't even mentioned the joker movie.
So why act like it did say that and be confused by it?
Edit: had to correct an autocorrected word
Harley shouldn't be liberated because it was her going down that lane of listening to the joker, that made her to be the joker's lackey.
Lmao, this is exactly what people are talking about with politics before story.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 dafuq? People can't lean from their mistakes or what? that's such a stupid take
Harley literally wore a thong for the whole of the suicide squad movie. It was ridiculous, can’t imagine how degraded Margot must have felt, she literally asked if she could be more covered and they said no
It's not ridiculous it's beautiful.
Also Margo robbie wasn't degraded in any way, she wasn't forced to wear that outfit & she didn't have a issue wearing it so what gives??
@@elongatedmanforever1252 you make me disgusted
@@niniusaa
Taking away the Male gaze is disgusting.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Troll
@@kara1782
No I'm entertainments last hope.
"We only like the ORIGINAL and SEXY Harley Quinn!"
...the one where she is wearing a one-piece jester outfit...? Her original costume?
"No, not like that!"
Ha! My thought exactly as an avid comic book and comic cartoon fan lol
As opposed to what? Her suicide squad outfit....thaaaat wasn’t even sexy in the first place
i liked her jester outfit the best
@@MOUSIMEK1 it was pretty iconic 🤩
@@nEmette28 especially in lego batman
one thing you should have mentioned: in the scene where she is putting her shirt on surrounded by men (6:03) literally everyone else is covered head to toe with practical clothes, but of course the only woman is wearing... that
I was gonna respond that El Diablo wasn’t but then I clicked the timestamp abs even he’s wearing more clothes when his main costume is being shirtless.
Pretty sure there were female soldiers staring too lmao
You forgot about the lady who hires them, she's clothed
Also every other character is shown grabbing things for like, half a second, and the shot of her putting that shirt on is way longer. This whole scene had no purpose beyond exposing margot robbie's body :D
@@Idiot77329 One female soldier doesn't take away the fact that scene was purely for the male gaze, they probably put her in there so people had 'ammo' to argue against it
she was sexier in Birds of Prey as a Bi woman. the "daddy's little monster" outfit just didn't feel right
her outfit on suicide squat was straight up cringe, didn't give her characterization at all
Wow a bi women and a straight man have different preference... what's your point
@@therealpotpol4027 oh i don't know because i also like girls? my sexuality doesn't hinder my preference nor my type
@@justme7410 what a girl looks for in a girl would be variably different than what a guy looks for
@@therealpotpol4027 i mean like... i guess? she never said her outfit in BoP was the superior one and that was that, just that she liked it more than the SS one because like.. that's her personal preference.
why are you so pressed about it lmao
men who are angry aren't angry because "sHe iSnT sExY aNyMoRe", they're angry because they gave harley feelings and emotions and made her human. these men who are angry, they genuinely scare me
Youre giving them too much credit if you think they actually watched the movie. Those men are crying over trailers and 5 second long clips.
The genuine SHOCK on my face when I heard people were mad because they realized Harley is a human being, not an object. What a world bro.
I seriously don't know how they justify to themselves that its ok to think that way.
"She's happy about who she is and doesn't need male validation?!?! She's choosing to show skin and doesn't do it to please ME?!?! Unexceptable! DISGUSTING!!!"
Like no, please, go to jail, immediately.
Nobody is angry. At the most some people are mildly disappointed. You're fabricating a strawman in your mind of people that don't exist.
Lmao no man thinks that
In suicide squad she was barely Harley Quinn, she was just the hot woman character. I’m so glad birds of prey exists so that people start to realize that Harley Quinn is not Joker’s hot gf anymore
The best version of Harley Quinn is the tv show. This was not a good representation of the character.
But that's isn't actually a good thing!, the whole idea of harley quinn was the blind love she has for the joker and the craziness that stops her from getting out of that relationship, i love how she's not sexualized anymore but i definitely hate how they made her an independent feminist.
@@kirbyboii9284 just like you said that WAS her whole idea and how can you not like her being a feminist? she was abused by a MAN and will now rage against the patriarchy
@@raccoon9951 but if you actually watch the comics you would know that he have even throw her out of the window and she came back to him? He have been taking credit for her work the whole time but she never got mad at him because she loves him the plot in birds of prey just simply doesn't make sense if you watch harley quinns story, also the whole movie shows every single and i literary mean it every single man as a bad character, even the little fight she's fighting men and they're all jerks, the movie was just offensive to men honestly i'm saying suicide squad was good but both of them was bad, suicide squad sexualized women and birds of prey made all men evil
@@kirbyboii9284 maybe you should be reading the new Harley Quinn comics, she and the joker are no longer dating and she dates Poison Ivy. “offensive to men”? Lol, it’s called punching up, besides literally every single villain in a lot of superhero movies are men, but most of them don’t have female protagonist, so you don’t care, right?
I agree that we shouldn't expect women to be just sexual object in movies but my god, the fact that men were complaining that the women in this movie weren't sexy enough blows my mind DO THEY HAVE EYES
I didn't see anyone making this kind of complaint. Do you have any link? I even checked RT and other sites. Most complaints are that the movie is quite mediocre and has flaws, and it indeed does.
@@Rihcterwilker theres like 5 examples literally in this video
@@mea2429 i mean, "man complaining" seems to be a stretch when these are random screenshots where we don't know who made them. Not saying that there aren't men out there that did complain about it, knowing that twitter is full of weird types of people, but i legit mostly saw fair criticism of this movie.
@@Rihcterwilker i assume the maker of the video found examples of men complaining to put in her video, and left out their names so she didn't dox them... it wouldn't make much sense otherwise. while most criticism probably was fair, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of men were pissy about this movie not catering to them. it honestly happens with every superhero/comic book movie geared more towards women or any minority tbh. a lot of the male nerds throw a fit about it, because the comic book industry is dominated by straight white men, they're not used to female characters being treated with respect and it ruffles their feathers because they can tell it's not for them alone anymore (and a good portion of them are sexist and racist). a lot of "fair criticism" was probably inspired by them just not liking the "feminism" in the movie and its directing. This isn't exactly a thing I can back up with sources, but trust me, I've seen it a lot. I've been a woman into comics and superhero movies since middle school. It's most obvious when it comes to legacy characters. A lot of guys lose it over big mantels like Iron Man being passed on to Iron Heart, a black female teenager, because they think it's politicizing comics (which have been political since the beginning, and the existence of black female teenagers is not political). I wrote a whole research paper on this, so sorry about kind of going on a rant haha. Not trying to have an argument btw would much prefer a civil conversation
I just thought the movie sucked. It was all over the place and wasnt very funny to me
I was obsessed with this movie and now I understand why. It was just so powerful and empowering to me, coming from an ex who disrespected me and treated me poorly. The music and the characters really stood out to me. Nobody seemed to get why I enjoyed this film, guess l’ll just have to show them this analysis.
So other films dont exist??
@@elongatedmanforever1252 that doesn’t make sense but ok
@@alyssa01825 I was talking about other movies that were empowering.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 well yeah there’s a ton of empowering movies but this one is the one that stood out to me. i’ve been a dc fan since i was 11 and harley quinn has always been my favorite female character in the comics. so to see her power through a toxic relationship and see her empowered left me feeling empowered as well. there are dozens of other more empowering films but this one appealed to me cause it was released during one of the darkest parts of my life(relationship) and i’m a dc junkie.
@@alyssa01825
Harley isn't a victim though, she's just as bad as the joker shes even killed him once or twice.
I dont understand why do people see harley as a empowering symbol she's literally a psychopath who tortures kids & did assault on nightwing praising her as some kind of abuse survivor is bizarre.
What happened to wonder woman being a symbol of empowerment ??
At least diana is a hero while harley is a villain.
The way these two films exist with the same character (and actor) makes this difference so unbelievably stark. Great vid hope to see more
It's sophistry and highly specious. Stay ignorant.
Camera work and costume design changes so much.
Why y’all mad
Another scene in BoP that I think worth mentioning for this topic was the bar scene where Roman assaulted a female customer. He ordered her to stand on the table and dance, and when she was too scared to comply he threaten her friend into cut her dress. The dress wasn't ripped off all the way, the actress was wearing basic beige bra, and the camera didn't linger on the close-up shot of her but also show the wide shot of the whole bar to witness the horror from other people. I don't even need to say how different it would be if this was done by Male Gaze.
Yes. That’s probably one of my favourite scenes bc it’s so sad and pretty relatable, stayed with me long after the movie ended. It might be too on the nose for some but I liked it’s callousness. BoP has many problems but it does have its moments.
@@Denturess For me, in contrast to the callousness of the scene, I felt that the production side of the scene were handle with utmost care. I couldn't imagine how difficult this type of scene must be for the actresses. Especially when most scenes were shot for more than one takes. Even thought it was acting, her dress was still being cut and pull down, in front of a lot of people. To me, the care of having many women in the decision making positions were shown in how they construct this scene: The actress wore basic beige bra. She only forced to reveal one side of her bra and open back. Which I think show less skin than that Harley Quinn scene in Suicide Squad. Plus the camera seems to show the POV of everyone else in the club. And not the Villain's lecherous gaze. Kudos to the people who construct this scene to be only horrifying and not titillating.
@@Blue_Lunacy Not to mention is shows the fear of the woman herself. Often times, female characters are made to look as though they enjoy (or are at least indifferent to) the male gaze.
Same when Harley was drunk and those guys wanted to take her to their house to r*pe her but Black Canary saved her, that scene really touched me it felt so relatable and so touching that they weren't friends but she still helped her
@@dianailea8000 Gotta love the female solidarity
Nice essay. the male gaze really is a problem in films and it really does take away from female characters
@@liampatrick3110 I would encourage you to do some research on what the Female Gaze actually IS.
@@liampatrick3110 good job guy. I've taken art theory in college.
@@liampatrick3110 go back to the original reply- you need to research what the female gaze ACTUALLY IS.
You seem to have a confused impression that it's the same as a male gaze.
@@liampatrick3110 you're wrong.
@@liampatrick3110 Famous last words "Explain it to me then"
*silence*
It’s so weird cus women can actually relate to male leads in movie’s who have a good character development like in almost every movie, because we see them as their own person, we don’t care about their gender. But I noticed most men barely have the capacity to relate to women characters for some reason. And that’s just weird and feels wrong.
A certain part of that is that most movies with male leads aren't about being men necessarily. There's so many male lead movies that at this point it's the default, and designed to appeal to a broad audience whereas a large chunk of the woman lead movies coming out in the past couple years are by nature about being a woman, and femininity. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not easy for men to relate to.
@@jbain4750 I have to agree with this. Lots of movies with male leads aren't about masculinity and so are probably more easily relatable to women. That's not to say that there are no relatable female leads, but due to underrepresentation of women in major roles it's pretty natural for female leads currently to emphasize the fact that they are female.
That’s actually a really interesting counterpoint. A lot of male lead movies can be gender swapped and it doesn’t change the story. A film like birds of prey is very clearly about women celebrating their womanhood, which is totally fine, but is never going to appeal to men the same way it will to women. The scene where Harley breaks the guys legs is because he came on to her. Is he a jerk? Definitely. But does that warrant having his legs broken? If the male gaze exists and appeals to men’s fantasies then this is a scene showing the female gaze exists as well as it appeals to a woman’s fantasy in wanting to break his legs. I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a female gaze in a film, but it will never appeal to men because it will have us rolling our eyes the same way women do when they see Harley sexualized. I think the lesson to be learned is that the writers should focus on gender neutral stories that don’t objectify women or blatantly insult men, unless it’s a movie made for men or for women.
@@esl4058 i feel like the broken legs thing is kinda just bcs harley is literally insane but i still agree with most of the stuff you said :]]
its also not true at all
Lmao the 2 guys that keep replying to top comments with "male gaze doesn't exist, sjw and feminism sucks" is so funny. They say that women are butthurt and snowflakes, yet they find time to reply to every comment that disagrees with them with their "facts" and "logic".
That guy is so sad. He obviously has nothing better to do since he has been commenting for six months
They’re a bunch of butthurt snowflakes, just like you
@@garouthetiktokinfluencerhu9731 oh i'm not butthurt. It's actually funny to see this guy commenting so much. If i had to take shot for every comment (of his) i saw i would end up in hospital 😭
@@lenkahudova8510 damn 😂
So liking Harley Quinn’s character because she’s hot is sexist and not ok?
@@garouthetiktokinfluencerhu9731 nevere said that djdjsldjshw? Lmao you do you, i do like Lady Dimitrescu from RE and its not beacause of her nice personality 😆. The video is about difference between male and female gaze. She can be hot af lmao i just dont need to see booty shots for every scene she is in and on the other hand there is no eye candy for the female (straight) gaze. And you cant say she wasnt hot in bop, it is margot robbie lmao. its just you see her as character with slight depth + development (even if its not the best writing). In SS her traits were: hot and crazy. And if you read comics you know there is more to her than that. Sorry if this doesnt make sense its 3am and im tired.
It’s the fact that the are literally admitting that they don’t actually want to see real female characters on the screen they want to see the gross sexualized version of women they created in their head.
they want to see comic book characters, and comic book characters are sexualized
@@oneboi1580 yeah, but that doesn’t make it okay, that just means there’s a deeper issue within the way women are shown within the media in general- doesn’t matter what form of media it is in.
@@alexscoot6594 men and women
@@oneboi1580 This. "Hurr durr women are sexualized in comics/movies", meanwhile batman over here is a solid 7 foot of raw muscle, intelligence and money and all men do is go "yo that guy is pretty cool.". Fucking baffles me every time how much people get upset by this type of stuff.
@@alexscoot6594 because men are NEVER portrayed as objects of sexual desire huh? Chiseled hunks splayed on the cover of novels, or angsty rebels in YA centered movies and books. I mean noooo that never happens, only men want to see this stuff because apparently they are the scum of the earth.
Regarding the legs thing, it feels like in Suicide Squad, the camera is stalking Harleen. Whereas in Birds of Prey, it feels like Harley is leading the camera instead.
THIS!!! it was almost as if the cameraman was purposely hiding in SS 😟
Yep. The SS camera shot her like she was being filmed by a teen boy through a window 🤮 vs BOP where the camera shot her like a security camera - the first one felt creepy and predatory, and the second felt normal and cooperatively(as in, it was working with her not against her)
YES OMG
Its like The camera in suicide Squad "I follow you, dont ask why"
And but in Birds of Prey, Harley just grabs the camera and goes "YOU, follow, ME"
But then the difference is not in the movie, but in the watcher?
I love her outfits in birds of prey, they’re so much better than her fit in suicide squad. They’re so much more pretty and colourful and I feel like it represents her character and personality a lot more than her suicide squad outfit did. I feel like her suicide squad outfit just showed us what the joker wanted Harley to look like and not what she actually wanted
Exactly that!
My favorite part of Birds of Prey was how it actually felt like a comic book. Everything from the color palette to the fight scenes (particularly Black Canary's).
The film was not even comic book accurate lol
Imagine making an article or an argument that literally says, "This sucks because the women aren't oppressed enough."
What world did you come out of??
There are too little obese men in twilight.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Imagine being the exact person this comment is referring to
@@Chiller-pc1dv at this point you’re going out of your way to insult this man
@@torreray5819 Lmao, and he's going out of his way to shit on anyone who disagrees with him, dude is everywhere. He's actually said awful things...why go after me?
lmao it makes me laugh that men really do feel comfortable saying "it's not sexy enough :(" I'm so done
for real! and you just KNOW they'd be frothing at the mouth if women said that about a male-dominated film lol
I literally saw a comment under The Suicide Squad's trailer saying that he wished Harley would show more skin...
Ey as a man. Not all of are like this. The same men complaining about harley not being sexy enough are the same ones simping for lola bunny
@@kingkong9892 If it don't apply to you please shut your mouth. We KNOW it's not all but it's too many. And men who keep saying "but not all! BUT NOT ALL!" are part of the problem. You want to be offended so bad. We aren't talking about you if you aren't doing the things that we complain about.
@Ahehx Cjejc Not all men, but enough to make generalizations.
As a guy, I honestly think the original Suicide Squad outfit was disgusting (And that's not even touching on how she was filmed). It feels like it was made by people who make rule34 of Harley and that is at the very LEAST deeply uncomfortable. Birds of Prey's outfit I liked that they went in a different direction after the first one, but to me the color scheme felt off (To clarify, I think the outfit itself was fine, it's literally just the colors that I didn't love). I have heard a lot of guys wish that she had the Timmverse harlequin suit in the movies, and while I think the outfit works well animated, I honestly don't think it would translate to live action. Also the guys complaining that Harley isn't "sexy" in the DCEU are as weird to me as anyone who romanticizes her relationship with the Joker.
The outfit from the new Suicide Squad, however, is honestly my favorite Harley outfit I've ever seen in any piece of media. It's got the subtle yet clear black and red colors, it's sleek without being form-fitting and it looks badass. Margot Robbie is a perfectly cast Harley Quinn and I love that they keep bringing her back.
right. the very first thing that came to my mind about those guys complaining was "incels, duh"...
Her role in New SS movie was good. Yeah the outfits too.. Especially the red dress she fights in . And that escape scene was so pretty.
@@BenefitCounterbench
Incels dont exist.
@@harshitarao2225
The Male gaze always wins.
I never really understood why I felt uncomfortable with that scene where Harley dresses up in Suicide Squad. I used to think it was empowering for women because Harley didn't care about all these men staring. You put into words perfectly why it makes me so uncomfortable: the fact that this scene is made for the male audience, which is weird and fucked up in itself, but also that right before the scene ends every male watching this scene gets justification for staring at Harley, since every man in the scene is ALSO staring at Harley. Even the fact that Harley was written to not care is fucked up, because if she doesn't care that they are looking at her almost naked body, why should these men? A gross scene and movie overall.
She's a beautiful woman of course they were going to look, why is it that scene is so horrible to you?? It's not there are thousands of scenes where men are dressed sexy, underdressed & even naked but somehow that's okay, gross double standard.
Well I don't have any interest in looking, so you sure it's for male audience. In fact, I often skip such scenes. Both suicide squad and birds of prey were trash.
But I really like your hypocrisy that men can't stare but women can get naked
@@themagneficent9400
There's also the fact that women can stare at attractive
men but it's not considered
"Objectifying".
@@themagneficent9400
I agree both movies sucked.
It's always so awkward during the slow-pan-of-the-female-character's-body scene. It's so clearly there for men and it's uncomfortable to see as a female viewer. I never could put my finger on why I didn't like those shots and -- ⭐ big surprise ⭐ -- it's because those women were being objectified.
did you know that all of the actors are objects for our entertainment in a movie?
@@GotoMaki4Micah Difference between objectified in film (which I can't see the problem with, most of the time characters are still seen as people rather than objects if it's done right) and sexually objectified, the latter that happens a lot more to one group of people than the other
Tbf, there's plenty of similar shots for male characters like Aquaman and Captain America. But that's ok, because superheroes are, in general, supposed to be pinnacles of a gender attractiveness. I understand it's a bigger problem for female characters as it harms characterisation beyond attractiveness far more often for them, though if the genders are treated equally in this department I wouldn't see an issue with this.
@@1Chasg the thing is, I'm attracted to men but the slow pan shots of them, although less common, are still pretty uncomfortable for me. I guess I just don't like seeing anyone objectified in that way
this further cements in my head that i am in fact not straight, as i never had a problem with those shots. this is unfair😭 (and by not a problem, i mean didn't feel uncomfy, the male gaze is def not okay)
Everyone was critisizing birds of prey saying it was a feminist agenda movie. Wow so taking away the over sexualization of a woman makes it just feminist movie? Men are also complaining now about Lola bunnies new look
No it is not because taking away de sexualization of women is because the whole propaganda message, annoying
@@amrn509 "propaganda" where???
@@amrn509 i am actually so confused by your comment... it is an action movie!
what do you mean "propaganda"?
@@amrn509 the propaganda being that women are not objects? :/
Ok to be fair lola bunny's new design is (( although not terrible )) not iconic
I honestly think that her looks in both movie work really well for her character in general. In Suicide Squad she was doing everything FOR Joker. In Bird of Prey she was doing it for HERSELF~
Wrong harley always did things for herself especially when she broke joker out of prison.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Nope. She broke the Joker out of the Asylum because she was tricked into it by him lying to her about how misunderstood he told her, he was.
This just gave me a whole new appreciation to birds of prey
When I watched this in theatres I was absolutely floored by the prison break scene. Harley was fighting in a thin white crop top while there was water pouring down and I had fully expected it to be sexualized since it's the same setup as a wet t-shirt contest, but then it was just...a really fun scene with stunts and interesting combat and THAT was the moment I recognized the difference a female vs. a male director makes
I loved that scene. The water effects were really pretty
Like the fight almost could've been a scripted dance. The choreography was on point
also the choreography for that scene is sooo good, one of the best fight scenes I've seen in superhero movies
I heard that the stunt company that did John Wick was brought in to do the fight scenes in this movie. That's part of the reason why the fight scenes looks really good. That and most of the leads were trained to do the stunt. Rosie Perez was said to be a real bruiser IRL :D.
I was stoked to see the scene 😍
That sounds so cool, I gotta see the movie now!
There’s nothing wrong with having women show their skin and embrace their sexuality, the issue comes when the male gaze is introduced and degrades women to being sex objects.
I think in general we should stop viewing "embracing our sexuality" as a good thing though. When do men ever feel the need to show skin and _embrace their sexuality?_ when do men need to cake on layers of makeup to feel good about themselves? I think we need to put more focus on normalizing wearing unattractive clothing/not wearing makeup/not constantly preening ourselves because that's where we're chained down by society
oh my goddd shut uppppp. The mental gymnastics you’re doing to avoid just admitting that women are objectified is astounding. doesn’t that get exhausting?? Seriously, aren’t you tired?
@@rex198 Actually in Asia, there are men who uses make up to make themselves more attractive, and some people hate it. They think these guys don't look like guys and only girls should wear make up. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think we should just offer the same respect as we do to everyone regarding their choices. If they want to go out without make up or doing their hair and wearing their comfortable clothes, that should be okay. Likewise, if someone wants to dress up and put on a lot of make up, that should also be okay.
@@daisychong3488 While on the surface your comment seems perfectly nice, it neglects some of the societal factors at play. We don't make choices in a vacuum, and not every choice we make is indicative of what we genuinely want or desire. Every time we make a choice, we have to use some kind of value to prioritize one thing over another -- I'm going to go on a run this morning instead of staying in, because my health is a value, etc. But many, if not most or all of these values are something we are taught by our society and culture. A really obvious example is beauty standards - what men and women find beautiful today is radically different from different societies, cultures, and time periods. When a woman makes the choice to wear a certain outfit, to a small extent she is choosing...and to a larger extent, she is basing her decision off of the beauty standard set by her society.
This is why there's more to women putting on makeup, wearing heels, and "expressing" their sexuality. All of these things are originally catered to male gaze. Many women will wear increasingly uncomfortable outfits because it looks sexy, and they will spend a lot of time and money on having the perfect skin, makeup, etc. because they want to look pretty. Predominately, they choose these things despite their costliness and discomfort because society has ingrained in us that "women must be sexy and beautiful." If your "decision" to sexualize yourself is...not only something actively promoted by your society, and actually also caters exclusively to men, how much of your decision is it? The same can be asked of things like sex. If sex is something that society says women should give freely without complaint, it seriously complicates whether or not a woman is truly free to consent to sex in certain situations.
Of course I don't mean to undermine a woman's autonomy in any and every situation. I do still think there is free will. But we can't just placate everybody by saying "just respect people's decisions..." because some of "their" decisions aren't really "theirs."
@@rex198 Embracing because it was repressed, told to be one way but then shamed for it.
I find it funny how everyone here gets mad at Harley being sexualized but ogle at characters like nightwing.
Ikr
@@liampatrick3110 this why I don’t take these people seriously.
male objectification is nowhere near as prevalent or harmful as female objectification. Can it become a problem? Yes but we'll cross that bridge when we get there and for now we'll focus on more important things.
@@ce5122 I’m just gonna say agree to disagree.
@@ce5122 Do you know how many male celebrities have been touched and/or GROPED without their consent!?
I didn’t even know this movie received backlash when it came out! I took my best friend to see this movie and was blown away with Harley’s character development from her Suicide Squad debut. Her outfits were so cool too!
Because it's a "Feminist" movie nobody likes those.
I think that Margot Robbie as the producer influenced greatly how birds of prey wasn’t about objectification. She talked in interviews how she had more fun during BOP because Harley is realizing she’s her own person and not there for the joker. I’m glad Margot Robbie is producing what she’s involved in. Bombshell was well done & her character was multi dimensional when she easily could be forced to play the characters are only one dimensional (Sharon Tate-Tarantino’s choice in giving her a little part).
@@liampatrick3110 Idiot
@@liampatrick3110 It's extremely rude of you to say that in a comment section where kids could read it too, and you criticising Margot Robbie makes you appear very Sexist.
@@liampatrick3110 that's lie
@@liampatrick3110 can u elaborate or ...
i agree with everything but the Tarantino thing, it was a great movie, and robbies character was absolutely my favorite
Honestly this goes much deeper too. She was designed as a character who is completely dependent on an abusive man. In a show for KIDS. She deserves to break free of that role and I’m happy to see it happen.
I mean now you're just complaining that art can showcase horrible sides of life, kids can get those kind of themes when tastefully done which BTAS in my opinion managed to.
I mean her being stuck in an abusive relationship isn't a bad thing from a character perspective. It makes her interesting and tragic and also makes the Joker even worse of a person but that part of her character is only good if there is some sort of development out of it, good or bad. Actually leaving that abusive relationship is something the character needs, yes. You can write her being stuck in it too but that'd just be depressing.
In the harley quinn animated show she does. If u havent seen it, you should its great
Technically, that's true to the comics and is kind of the point of her character?
It was portrayed as bad in it’s original form. Her character has been massively expanded on since then.
I prefer how Harley looked in Birds of Prey, in Suicide Sqaud it was way too obvious and hand fisted she was suppose to be eye candy and it was pretty obnoxious. Meanwhile, Birds of Prey actually gave her more character and made the movie much more enjoyable, plus her costume legit just look better.
100% agree. eg. the amount of times in Suicide Squad they have her bend over from the waist with her legs straight (and in several of those shots, the camera is pointed right at her ass eg. when she smashes a shop window and steals a bag) was honestly laughable. They tried way to hard to make her into eye candy for horny guys and it was super distracting. I suddenly went from watching characters in a film to watching a woman who was super aware of the camera on her and how she looked, and wanted to look as sexy as possible at all times, which is just really unnatural to watch and took me out of the film completely. She walks/bends/exists in a physical space like an actual human being (instead of a pinup poster) in Birds of Prey.
@@daisybryar2737 plus I think Birds of Prey did what Suicide Sqaud try to do a lot better. Like Birds of Prey had style and substance and it wasn't like overdone. But in Suicide Sqaud they tried way too hard to make it stylish, but failed and also just handfisted it with like constant licensed music. It was as if a trailer were turned into a movie instead of the other way around.
@@atomicaftershow Yeah I totally agree. It's hard to say what thier intent was in terms of style in Suicide Squad because whatever they wanted to do, they did a bad job of it. It was just visually dark (like every other DC film before then), kind of bland in terms of story, and the script was full of lines that sounded like placeholder until they came up with something more natural (especially the way Slipknot and Katana were introduced).
That thing about the trailer, that's actually exactly what they did - they loved the one Trailer Park made for them so they asked them to edit the whole movie, that's why it feel like a 2 hour long trailer.
She had no charecter in bop that's a lie.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 my bad, I didn't know you were blind and deaf
Thank you so much for making this video and showing some support for Birds Of Prey. This movie got unnecessary hate on social media which it doesn't deserve at all. Birds Of Prey is such a fun movie with great action scenes it only deserves love.
It definitely got neccessary hate, for being sexist, ruining the characters demfeminizing the female characters by removing the Male gaze & pushing toxic intersectional feminism.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Birds Of Prey is Criminally Underrated. It's not only the Best Female led CBM but also one of the Best and Most Unique of it's genre. Birds Of Prey is one of the Best Action Movies Of 21st Century. It has Grounded action not overloaded Cgi fights, so viewers can feel each n every Kick, Punches and Bone Crunches. Birds Of Prey has one of the most Beautiful Cinematography in the Superhero genre. The Visuals are Stunning, Colourful and Eye-catchy. This movie's Soundtrack is just Phenomenal which makes the viewers to revisit it again n again. Birds Of Prey is a Comfort movie for so many people. And you Toxic haters, spread hatred how much u want, it doesn't matter because Birds Of Prey will gonna keep on Winning Hearts. Because Love is Superior than ur hate.
@@Crazyboy-pu2ub
No it's not, it's terrible & uninspired
& is just a shitshow of a movie & it's a fucking insult by calling it "The best female lead" Comic book movie is just ignorant,
& this amount of praise for something so shitty is why we always get very bad female lead movies to begin with, & anybody who says anything negative about it are just "haters or sexists", but the truth is it's nothing but "a girl power gimmick" with lazy choreography,
a annoying nothing of a protagonist harley cringe who doesn't develope or become a better person & cries about the joker like a f-ing loser, bad characters, stupid inept male villains who just exist to get kicked in the balls, and nothing but propaganda
it's a insult to comic movies everywhere & is extremely alienating & sexist.
There was absolutely
nothing interesting or compelling about this movie, the story was shallow and dumb the whole movie is about "getting over joker", like a cringy bad romance sitcom, it feels like it's straight out of a bad fanfic wattpad story.
Harley doesn't change or see the errors of her ways, or see that she helped destroy millions of people's lives nope it's all about her & her getting her "agency back" because the writers somehow think she's "a poor innocent victim of that so called patriarchy", because of her being "Sexualized" in the suicide squad movie, and display that mindset in bop where every dude is a terrible person, especially roman sionis who is retconned into being a insecure sexist dudebro, yeah this movie is horrible especially with people Glorifying harley being absolutely evil, but act like the men's
Actions are irredeemable I feel like this movie is brainwashing people especially women to not like men
The message in this movie is despicable, shallow and is a embarrassment for a comic book film it deserved to underperform.
Birds of prey was basically FROM women TO women. You can see that understanding in each and every shot and minor details. loved it
@@liampatrick3110 yet yall were too busy crying about how harley quinn wasn’t sexualised enough. dumbfuck
@@liampatrick3110 mad about ‘men getting slandered 🥺’ even though women are constantly sexualised in media. Constantly. As Cocokoochie said; dumbfuck.
@@liampatrick3110 go cry about it little baby 🥺
@@liampatrick3110 i’m a misandrist because of men like you 😍
@@marinetteadrien3155 th-cam.com/video/QmFaDyjTTXs/w-d-xo.html
I remember reading all these bad stuff about birds of prey but still deciding to go and watch it because I'm just a huge Harley Quinn fan (talking about only guys reading comics... -.-) and then leaving the theater thinking wtf, this movie is amazing...So thanks male critics for nearly stopping me from watching an amazing film! I also don't get why so many people always want her paired with the Joker...have they seen her with Poison Ivy?! That's the real power couple!
She was originally made as a sidekick to the Joker. Having Harley with anyone else besides the Joker is like having Robin with anyone else besides Batman. It just seems historically off.
@@greywolf7577 She has cut herself free from the abusive relationship with the Joker and is now her own villain, who is doing things for herself. Her crawling back to the Joker wouldn't make sense after the course of events.
@@greywolf7577 No it's not because the comics themselves have, like the OP pointed out, also strayed away from that with the Poison Ivy pair-up.
@@greywolf7577 eh no spinoff is impossible, a lot of people wouldn't question it if there was a solo Robin movie
@@greywolf7577 honestly I would stan a Robin only movie if it’s interesting. Why tf not?
This was such a good essay, everything was clear and concise and well put, I had never thought about how many different ways the male gaze can find its way into the final result, I had always just thought about it as a problem with the writers. Its interesting to think about the ways its used within that and also how its applied beyond that. Thank you!!
The male gaze is beautiful
@elongatedmanforever1252
The male gaze is toxic and gross
Thank you, Mollie for an educational well-thought-out presentation of the male gaze. You have a knack for this type of medium.
Not that one guy replying to every comment because he's offended...someone got too much time on their hands.
Ikr like dude go outside
@@stickfiguresink1871 haha yep he's been replying to these comments for a year straight to this day
@@maryam0249 lol and he uses the word feminazi like it's still 2016
ew i shouldnt have looked at the comments replies, he is pathetic
@@user-nv3sh5jh3p no, I would say you could feel bad for him. Some people release their frustration in their own way (whether it’s healthy or not).
I remember this guy saying he hated the movie cuz it was a "feminazi" movie. Like, how? Cuz the girls weren't in skimpy outfits and the beat they male villian?
My brother said he didn't like it and thought it was unrealistic because all the men in the movie were bad people. Like?? unfortunately that's not unrealistic at all...
No lmao a is because the whole feminist message around it. Even many girls hate it, is just annoying as hell
@@amrn509 Specifically, what 'feminist message'?
@@amrn509 the "feminist message" that proves women can kick ass just as well as men???
@@amrn509 what feminist message though? Its just women fighting the villains. How is that feminism to be exact?
amazing, amazing video please keep up the awesome content! this was so incredibly accurate and descriptive and really what fans of harley need to see and recognize. thank you so much for this vid!
Very nicely put together and very clearly explained. The fact that you took parallel examples really drives home the point very well. I know you said this seems a bit rough because it's your first video essay but it's rough only in terms of some supers and visuals which are not that important anyway - but in terms of explaining your point and backing it up it's very nicely done.
What's most annoying is how the male gaze is transferred over to real life. I remember coming into school one day looking pretty disheveled and tired due to a bunch of work I had the last few days. I didn't look horrible, I just wore what was comfortable, threw my hair in a bun, and didn't both to touch an ounce of makeup. When I got to school, guys asked me "why would you leave the house like that? aren't you worried about what you look like?" I simply told them that I didn't care today since my energy was devoted to other things and I just wanted to be comfortable. When I gave them my answer, they realized that I didn't care if I was trying to be visually appealing to them or not; they were offended I was dressing for myself, not for them. Men have become so accustomed to having women dress according to the male gaze that when a woman finally takes agency over something as simple as how she looks in a given day, they feel angry and as if something that is owed to them has been taken away.
100 bucks says that those guys also showed up to school everyday wearing the same hoodie they've worn all week & dirty cargo shorts, because of course the same standards they have for women don't apply to them. If there's anything men have, its the audacity
Or you just looked like a slob lmfao
I know the feeling! I can't count the times men (and teenage boys) told me, begged be not to put my hair in a bun or ponytail because "it didn't suit me". they'd rally: one would start and that one or two more would always agree. dudes I just want my hair out of my face so I can actually see what I'm doing lol. my solution is to keep my hair short now and I know that many men find me unattractive just because of that and I don't care because that just weeds out the really bad ones at least. win for me.
That sounds less like male gaze and more a social issue because I'm sure there is someone with your exact same story except the guy is another girl , another where the guy is dressing extra sloppy and he gets ragged on .
@@savontorres2140 yes.
I like to call it: the difference between sexy and sexist.
It's not sexist for women to be sexy people want women to become manly or have a Box chest that's sexist.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Did they NOT say that there is a difference between sexy and sexist? Is putting words in people's mouths your favorite hobby?
@@elongatedmanforever1252 boy you’ve made 639 comments on this video please consider therapy 💀💀💀
@@ssm5708 I'll consider good movies being made instead.
@@Chiller-pc1dv I'm not putting words in their mouths, it speaks for itself again look at how all comics nowadays make women into literal teenage boys & teela being completely masculine these people are doing that to combat this evil "Male gaze" at this point I actually prefer that because "Woke feminist gaze" is the opposite of good for women.
watched your video once when it first released and now i watch it again because i'm on a tour on video essay. still love it
FANTASTIC VIDEO! Im inlove with the pacing of your edit !
The male gaze is a big problem in todays rape and assault scenes. The women get all dressed up with perfect hair and make up and then after, or even worse, during the assault the male gaze is all over the victim.
Very few rape scenes in movies show how horrible it is. Most of them end up being titilating scenes, and worst, most do it on purpose.
WTF
th-cam.com/video/aj4Qo_qHVyA/w-d-xo.html
@@elongatedmanforever1252 What is stupid exactly? You already dismissed the fact that women actually do get objectified, covering your eyes like it doesn't exist....what now? You gonna do the same for the fact that women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted and or harrassed by men? Because statistics can VERY easily prove you wrong
@@mffmoniz2948 Yes! They even said in interviews that they do the hair, makeup and body posture of actresses who are being raped so she looks sexy!
As a woman who loves women it is interesting to see how my feminist beliefs and my attraction for women coexist. I find women the most sexy when they are confident and comfortable. And maybe that comes from my experience of also being a woman but I thought it was just interesting how I view sexy women vs how my straight male peers seem to view them.
right???? I never saw suicide squad but I saw birds of prey with my friends who are also wlw and we walked out just like "oh my god, WOMEN"
As a bissexual who saw both movies, I must agree, Harley does look better in BoP, she looks more confortable, more happy
Right? Like, women are at their MOST attractive when they're being... human i guess is the best word. Like, women just like... exist, and be happy and confident and awesome and that's hot??? I swear, if writers so badly want to write their female characters as "attractive" write them as attractive to anyone other than straight, allosexual men, because apparently that'll get you real women 90% of the time!
This is sosoos relateable, I just find straight men(not all) so absolutely disgusting, they sexualize things over the top, as much as they can. And the way they talk is so gross and I could never talk about women the way they do, no matter how attractive.
The male gaze seriously made it difficult for me to realize I was attracted to women for a looooong time. Women directed by women are so attractive it’s UNREAL.
"I have hardly ever met a woman in real life as unremarkable as the women in movies, and I have hardly ever met a man in real life as remarkable as the men in movies"
This was awesome, thanks for creating this!
The male gaze is real. I saw a comment where a guy was complaining about "too much makeup ruining a woman's attractiveness". Still awful, when I said that I found her attractive (I'm bisexual) he said that my judge of attractiveness wasn't valid. Some guys actually feel entitled to judge a woman's worth based on her looks and sexual appeal. It really makes me upset.
Edit: This comment blew up, and with that comes more people expressing their views and opinions. Thank you to those being polite, I try to be open minded and will listen to your thoughts. The term "male gaze" doesn't apply to all men and is flawed for that reason. I don't in any way mean to say preferences are invalid but criticism for people not fitting them is inappropriate and wrong.
th-cam.com/video/aj4Qo_qHVyA/w-d-xo.html
@@liampatrick3110 Yes? I don't doubt that there are negative portrayals of men in the media. The thing is, it's not really relevant to this video in particular. It's just not the focus. Not a whole lot of men are supposed "heroes" (or at least anti-heroes, like the main characters of suicide squad) but just seen as sexual.
Honestly - When other women are confident in themselves
makeup or not
its honestly pretty hot-
That's dumb.
@@noeyedgirl
Are you kidding me. There are many negative portrayals of men in movies including birds of prey, Black Christmas, Charlie's Angel's & Captain marvel making every dude either useless, idiotic or sexist & men are literally killed & slapped by women & its seen as a joke stop lying it makes you look incredibly ignorant.
Men also had a complaint about the men in this movie not being "sexy suave villains" or something, but that was the point. This movie highlighted the debauchery of Gotham city, as disgusting, vile, and not glamorous. We see Gotham not from Bruce Wayne's perspective, but from poor unfortunate Harley, downtrodden and stuck in a man run police force Montoya, bad situation Black Canary, a runaway and an assassin. Their lives are shit, and so are the men in it. The men in their lives are abusers, are vile, disgusting, misogynists, and while they might think they're hot shit, the women definitely don't think they are. Most rapists are weak men who can't control themselves and definitely don't deserve better.
This reminds me of how men complained about the male characters in Orange Is the New Black. The series portrayed men without any sugar coating and heroisation - they were shown as cowards posturing as alphas, misogynists, homophobes, rapist, opportunistic idiots, etc. yet I found all of these characters as reminiscent of men I knew in real life. That was actually refreshingly realistic. Men are used to being spoiled by heroic portrayals, seeing themselves as 'good guys' but in reality all men have flaws, and a lot of the time men downright suck. There is no 'good guy/ bad guy' dichotomy, just men who consider themselves better than they actually are.
Don't forget that they like to use the word "woke" (derogatory) to describe anything that doesn't cater to them to dismiss its value. They really are so delicate.
@@foxesofautumn Like glass 🙄🤦🏽♀️
THIS is my entire issue with the mindset that radical feminist have, you treat all men like they are inherently misogynistic, sexist and probably rapists and act like they should be ashamed of being born as a certain gender which may I remind you, is sexist. You people seem to be nearly as bad as the ones who claim there getting an abortion if their child isn’t a girl
Stop pretending you don't get the point Ciaran
Love the ending shot with the dialogue, the look of 'yeah you' right to the audience.
Please make more videos like this! It's so good!
I feel pretty bad for the guys who can't see that a confident, empowered woman with agency can be a sexy thing. It says something that they feel a need to be in an aggressively dominant position and are uncomfortable when they're not.
I mean, you can’t tell someone what they can and can’t find sexy. The issue arises when they try to put those preferences onto other things.
That's bullshit.
Right?! This may be off topic a little, but I've seen a lot of men online saying their girlfriend/wife needs to be obedient and submissive, but wouldn't that just be boring? I kinda feel like having someone who never disagrees with you or never has their own opinion around would just be a chore...
@@Steph-bx6yu it's a power fantasy. Most men who favor "weak" women have self esteem issues. They are wishing for a woman who's only purpose is to empower them, because they lack that power in real life.
I thinks that there's nothing that's more satisfying then a partner that is my equal.
@@Steph-bx6yu
What?? Where is this coming from??
I've never see men say that.
Margo Robbie is an incredible actress and it sucks that she was so sexualized in suicide squad she even said in an interview that she was very uncomfortable in how little she had to wear and that she wasn’t going to do that again if they wanted her to play Harley again I’m glad birds of prey was much different.
I haven't seen either movie but I heard from a guy I know who says birds of prey is so much better. Not trying to defend men, just letting you know there are some good ones out there...
And the boots, i remember watching suicide squad and sighing so hard when i saw those boots, sooooo unrealistic, who jumps onnthose ???? Who male figh scenes on those ???? Comics desing on women or superherous outfits are so trashy .... ewwww, only wonder woman look somehow awesome and thats cuz its tye least sexualized dc character, maybe cuz she is a demigod
@@tommj4365 I'm sorry but what are you talking about? She didn't say anywhere in the comment that "all men are like this". If I'd get a dollar everytime someone says "NoT Alllll mEn" I'd be rich! That being said we know that's not the case. In-fact I don't understand why so many people think it's only women who complain about objectifying women, a lot of guys don't think it's good either.
@@Minniechii "a lot of guys don't think it's good either" was my only point
@@tommj4365 Yes and that's good and all but irrelevant to this comment is my point.
i loved both versions but i love bop harley because through outfit changes you can also see her grow as a person and realize she doesn’t need to please anyone
i loved this video and it actually made me understand what the male gaze is so THANK U
Margot Robbie did mention she was not comfortable in her suicide squad outfit. This alone speaks for itself if you ask me. I believe ALL actors should feel safe and comfortable on set, men and women, but especially women.
‚But especially women‘ so here’s another sexist
Especially women? Fam neither men nor women's feelings are more valid or important than one another. Men have just as much of a right to comfort as women and vice versa.
There’s no especially women, just men and women, men are valid too
I Feel (and hope) that what she meant by "especially women" was that men already feel comfortable on set for the most part. There's less of an evolution needed for men to be comfortable on set, so the change has to be made "especially for women" so that in the end they're both equally comfortable. Not saying there are no occasions where men could be uncomfortable, Hollywood also has its loads of shirtless guys, but it's still less blatant and that's probably what Emily Clark meant. Not that women should be more comfortable on set than men, but that there's more work to be done on women's side.
@@Sims_it What a beautiful reconciliation, thank you for this comment. It's important not to inadvertently fight against those who are on the same side as oneself.
The clothes really hits different!! In SS her clothes are tight, and "artfully torn", it just seems uncomfortable, a literal costume, in BOP however, we get a crop top paired with loose, loud jacket, they're both crop tops, but the BOP's clothes have way more personality, and is not there solely to attract men, it seems way more like something a real person would wear on a daily life rather than just a costume
There’s also a nice parallel to her arc in that. In Suicide Squad she’s still all about impressing Joker, what she’s wearing is just a costume, where in Birds of Prey she’s becoming her own person.
They should have gave her the red and black pants in SS instead if them stupid ass shorts.
Sure she looks good but i didn't come to see a comic book movie so i could stare at half naked versions of characters.
I came to enjoy the story of the movie.
Well, to be fair most characters in superhero/villain movies wear costumes most of the time
this was a really well put together and executed analysis
This is the kind of videos that I want to double like if I can
Something I always noticed on movies about or with woman directed by man, is how when they present a woman they do close up of her legs, ass, boobs, always highlighting her body. While with men, they present objects that reflect their personality and how badass they are or something.
YESSS
WandaVision, Black Widow (coming up) and Wonder Woman.
Aquaman, Captain America, Thor and Superman are the pinnacles of male physical attractiveness, with plenty of shots showing that off in the movies. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know this issue is way worse for females, as they are characterised solely by their appearance way more often. I just wanted to point out that those shots can also make young guys feel self-conscious about themselves, just like it can for women too. This shouldn't be a male v female issue. We should work things out together, encouraging equality and not further segregation between the sexes by fighting each other.
@@1Chasg Also, another thing kinda off is how when it comes to those kinds of movies they’re usually for 12-16 year olds so kinda weird how they add so many half naked man on a movie that’s supposed to be for teens....
Femnazi
Remember girls and boys: if fans of a movie franchise complain and whine so much about a character not being sexy anymore, it only proves that the character didn’t have a good personality in the first place and/or was valued by viewers only for their sexiness.
LOOOOVE this breakdown.
a year too late but man this didnt feel like 7 minutes, more like a perfectly done 1 hour analysis
Now I want to watch birds of prey.
As a woman it is really frustrating to see so many women on screen only being there to please the desires of the male viewer and not as something for the women (and men of course)in the audience to identify with or to understand.
I really changed the way many women see themselves when all they see in media is an idealized, objectified and Characterless, voiceless representation of women
thinking more about this, also largely explains why I often dislike female characters in action movies or movies that are generally more"male" oriented. You know, that extra woman they had to fit into a group of men because otherwise the lack of female representation is too obvious... but as a woman watching you kind of just dislike this woman.. It's because she barely is a person and really is not there for the female viewer to relate to but for the male viewer to drool over.. Wish the world were different
@@gwencaster6485 As a man, it is frustrating to see people bash the "male gaze" as if there is something wrong with men being attracted to hot women. I think a lot of women think that there are scenes that are made for men and thus shouldn't be made since to them scenes should only have women in mind apparently. The women who complain about the "male gaze" never complain about attractive men in movies, of course, because it benefits women.
@@greywolf7577 it isn't about us complaining that it isn't for us.... we are complaining that it dehumanizing
@@greywolf7577 hot men are not dehumanized.... they have ideas, personalizes and other things besides their looks (hell some men BECOME hotter through their personality) that's why we don't "complain"
@@greywolf7577 You took that wrong, from a pansexual girl point of view let me tell you I am both atracked to men and women and I like to see them hot ofc but the appearance is not the problem in my opinion everybody feels different about costumes and looks in movies I personaly don't mind revealing clothes cuz I wear them too, well the problem is female characters are always so underrated in male action movies and idolazed, they don't have enough story and depth and also what is bothering me the most is that they are strong but not stronger than the male protagonist, they are always in the shadow of males, ik its hard to understand because you are a male and don't notice those things but I hope someday you will change your point of view and start to notice how media handles things
The male gaze: Gross, takes away so much character from the movie/show
The male gays: Valid as heck
Preach
Gay? Rather bit cringe.
@@largestink4414 ???
Gaze*
No it doesn't, & also it's not a real thing.
Harley Quinn's outfits
Suicide Squad: Stripper
Birds Of Prey: Homeless person
The Suicide Squad: Actually good
Facts
Harley is a sexualized character. Thats how she was conceieved originally. I guess thats why BoP failed
++++++++++
I went to see this movie with my dad, brothers, and uncle, and all throughout it I felt like it wasn’t made for my brothers or Dad or Uncle like usual, it was made for ME. It was made for me and my sister and my friends. It felt so good to finally see a movie that was made BY people like me, FOR people like me.
There was no instance where I rolled my eyes at how sexualized she was, at no point did I get uncomfortable sitting next to men and knowing they were looking at her sexually while I, someone like her, sat next to them. It was made for ME.
I loved it. Can’t praise this movie enough for being brave enough to entirely throw the male gaze to the side for their female viewers.
Thank you for wording it like this!! I was never ever awkward about simply watching a sex scene in a movie with my family, i was awkward knowing that certain scenes were there for men, such as my father to enjoy a woman's body while I sat watching with him 🤢 (for the record my dad is a fantastic feminist and is very aware of issues like the male gaze in films etc)
Yesss I love reading this!! 👏🏼
@@vmcintosh8956 exactly!! It’s such an uncomfortable and icky feeling to be sat by a family member while watching a scene that was clearly made for them to enjoy, no matter how aware or unaware they are of women’s issues. So glad your dad is so aware!
I grew up with mostly females and felt incredibly uncomfortable at a very young age as they commented and drooled on every hot guy in films, making me feel ugly as I never was as attractive... I know I'm likely an exception and this in no way comes close to what females feel in your position, but if it's even 1/100th of the feeling, then I sorta, maybe, tiny bit understand... at least I want to try to :( sorry...
@@tommj4365 that’s definitely what it feels like! Just a bit worse, since the female gaze in movies focuses on strength and power in men, and the male gaze focuses on vulnerability and a lack of power in women.
I remember a bunch of men were mad that harley was kicking ass against men twice her size and said it was unrealistic but said it was fine that a guy dressed up like a bat to fight crime.
I mean, there are differences. For one, Batman canonically has a 9-pack (thank you LEGO). But more seriously, as long as the costume actually looks intimidating, it’s believable that Batman can actually fight criminals effectively with fear. The reason it’s not believable that Harley can beat up people twice her size with mostly brute strength (combine with some acrobatics) but it is believable that superheroes exist in this universe is internal consistency. If superheroes exist, that’s fine as long as someone in that universe doesn’t deny something impossible because they don’t think the science works with it. A powerless (as in no superpowers) woman somehow having how strength than people with twice as much muscle mass brings into question the point of even having said muscle strength. This is actually a reason why I like Cara Dune in the Mandalorian. She has a lot of muscle, so it makes total sense when she can overpower similarly strong people, such as her arm wrestle with Mando. Sorry for the essay, it’s just that argument is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, even though the intent is good.
Yeah a woman with barely any muscle mass who knows acrobatics (nothing to do with fighting) and has basic fighting skills is the same as a male with peak physical strength who trains regularly, has a whole list of fighting styles he knows and has high tech gadgets to aid him with his body and skills, yeah a good comparison.
The point Is that this Is fiction lmao why are you coming with fAcTs about Batman when these are fictional characters? Do y'all really think DC cares about realism? Lmao
@@kenunot6106 Keeping somewhat realism in fiction is still important, would it be beliavable for you if Roman suddenly showcased the ability to shoot lasers from his eyes despite him not doing that the whole movie?
@@kenunot6106 internal consistency is different than realism
I love that Margot Robbie has been fighting for birds of prey and that version of Harley
I am shocked at the like/dislike ratio on this video. Over 1 million views and overwhelming likes? I feel like that wouldn't have been the case years ago. I love seeing that! Cheers to all the men watching, listening, and finally understanding. Please keep listening and having conversations with other men. We need more allies. (Also fantastic video, really well done for your first video essay! Glad I watched it :))
Just realized with your comment on her SS shirt labeling her as belonging to another man, the shirt she wears in most of BOP has her own name on it. Thus tying back in to Harley taking back control of her life and agency. I can’t wait for conventions to come back so I can wear that shirt for my own Harley cosplay.
Not to mention, she rips off the only signifier she has of the Joker - her J necklace - in like the first 10 minutes of the movie. They really said fuck the Joker lmao
@@m.k4447 so she never said fuck the joker in the comics?
@@GotoMaki4Micah No one said that you bitchbaby. I've seen your other comments and how you get offended at even the slightest thing is pathetic to say the least.
the SS shirt was cause of how obsessed she was with the Joker. For a while she felt like he was her only reason for anything but she grows and gets autonomy and I love how BOP portrays that.
@@GotoMaki4Micah shut the fuck up
This video made me realize that the makers of BoP probably added scenes that paralleled Suicide Squad on purpose to remove the male gaze perspective and take back control of the character.
Mad lads
“Take back control” is a bit much there. DC Comics will always have “control” over the character technically. The creators of BOP don’t own Harley. One movie won’t change that.
Another thing i find really neat about the introductory shot of BOP is that Harley is, seemingly very deliberately, walking on top of the line of the floor tiles, as if working on a fine line or doing a balancing act. If you choose to read into this image you can infer characteristics about Harley, as opposed to the Suicide Squad counterpart, where all the information we can get about the character being introduced is ''sexy''
That intro take comparison was well done
I remember growing up I had this one issue. As kids all girls wore shorts and crop tops and nobody ever said anything, it was considered cute. But the moment we reached puberty and still wore the same kind of clothes it started attracting looks, we were often criticized and often punished for it. A lot of girls were simply confused because although the changes in our bodies were visible we were way too young to understand how people viewed us. It took me a while to realize that it wasn't my body that changed so drastically as it was the gaze. It used to be adults looking at a child, now it's men looking at a woman. And the fact that we're still shamed for that really sux.
THIS. Why should the victims have to change their behaviour? Like it's their fault? Oh you were touched up, well you were wearing that top so what did you expect? SICK.
@@foxesofautumn ikr, do we shame theft victims for owning expensive items? No, so what's the logic???
YUP!
Ugh, when I was 12 I was outside just kicking my football wearing my favorite stretchy jeans because you could move in them, they were like tights. I didn't think about it but my body had started to change. And two guys came up to me and asked if I wanted to have sex....I'm sorry but I was clearly a kid?!?
What is wrong with their brains?!
huh in my life it was very diffrent, anyone could get away with breaking ayn physical barriers with clothes, but you couldn't put your hoodie up or else your the devil, whats more when i was younger it was seen as insane for a child to where those sorts of clothes and extremely creepy,
@@floragoralska4964 the sad thing is that some people actually do exactly that and it makes me sick
You can tell if a man is weak or not by just listening to his opinion about Birds of Prey
Yeah, like, it's perfectly fine to not like the movie. But if your only reasoning is 'fEmInIsM bAd' then you're a total loser lmao
Lmao factssss
@@GotoMaki4Micah Okay but the multiverse exists. So there is a version of Harley Quinn that left Joker, and that is a feminist. There is a version of Harley Quinn where their origin story doesn't involve Joker. There is a version of Harley where Joker is Harley! Multiverse allows for anything you think of to be real in one of the universes. Isn't there an official version where Batman is a vampire (not Bruce Wayne though)?
@@user-kg6pr1iv4i Yea, the comics for Batman did run a storyline involving him turning into a vampire.
@@GotoMaki4Micah you don’t read the comics and it shows Harley been over joker since forever..u tried tho
I just want to watch harley voice over anything. A robbery, a random birth, a house sale, anything.
Thank you so much for this. This explains it so much better than I could.
The whole thing about the costume not even being the biggest issue is so true, it's the way it's presented. Harley wore less revealing outfits in Birds of Prey but I'm pretty sure that she could wear the exact same things she wore in Suicide squad and still feel more like a person rather than an object, all because of the way she is presented/filmed in BOP.
Agreed, although I think the more pertinent 'male gaze' in Suicide Squad is not so much the scene discussed here as later during the film when it's raining most of the time. Harley has discarded her jacket by then, so the view is of her wet t-shirt clinging to her body. The other female member of the squad, Katana, is not presented in the same manner.
I might argue that, whilst the Suicide Squad costume is certainly male gazey, Harley herself is well aware of the effect it has on the men (and women too) watching her put her clothes on. She 'knows what boys like' as the song goes, and that can give her power over them. The same thing is true of the dancing scene from Suicide Squad. She begins by being partly obscured by the curtain, and far from being simply portrayed for the benefit of male viewers (although that factor certainly exists) she is also being (willingly?) used as bait and weapon to trap the gangster who's come to meet Joker, and who is subsequently killed by him.
The dancing scene in BoP is not quite the same, as the guy whose legs are broken when Harley jumps onto him, is not trying it on with her as claimed here. Quite the opposite. He's pissed that Harley tossed her drink over the woman he was trying to get with (perhaps that was why she did it.... to split them up) and tells her to shut up. Harley Quinn may be crazy, but there's very often a method to her madness.
@@ShanghaiRooster dude, this cliche it’s for the MALE GAZE. Just like how we are usually the most interesting character in the room because men are actually well written, but only women seem to be portray like this; poison ivy, cat women, black widow etc etc.
You get my point. Explaining the reason why she is being sexualize doesn’t change the fact that she is still being sexualize.
@@anymarcos2355 I have to disagree with you. The context is all. When you have ass shots in a film, or indeed some bare-chested male shots, those are usually done for the 'benefit/titillation' of people in the audience. They have nothing to do with the actual story.
The other side is demonstrated quite well by this scene from Fast & Furious 5 - th-cam.com/video/UjKf5df2qV4/w-d-xo.html. Sure, it's objectifying Gal Gadot, but in the context of what is happening during this scene, where she is using her feminine wiles to get close to the guy the team is targeting and complete the mission, I think that's fine. Her character is in control of what she is doing, unlike for example a lot of the gratuitous shots by Joss Whedon in his version of Justice League (2017), such as here th-cam.com/video/dNwahbgU2sU/w-d-xo.html (1:02) or the infamous Flash face plant.
The crazy thing is that yk it’s wrong when even kids find it uncomfortable. I remember my 7 year old brother at the time being like wtf at the scene where Harley is changing
i mean, i know that this scene was wrong for so many reasons but this movie is also rated PG13 - for 13+ people
@@Mariam-ou8kt yeah but kid shouldn't be watching this movie in the first place
@@Mariam-ou8kt I'd imagine being *_YOUNG_* has a lot to do with *_AGE_* ratings
Why the fuck was a 7 year old watching suicide squad?
@@jonnyorigan it was extremely popular and many kids watched it just like batman movies ect. Ect.
THIS is the quality content I am here for
She was doing everything for the joker in suicide squad, she was acting the way the joker wanted her to act because she was under his control because of the psychological reconditioning she endured from him so I feel like the way the movie was shot was appropriate because at that point in time she was just an object under the jokers control but then she broke up with him and became her own person in birds of prey.
Suicide Squad doesn't represent any of Harley supposed subjugation as bad, though. The camerawork suggests it's there to gawk at.
Her jacket used to read "property of the joker" in the first movie but in the second movie it reads "live fast die clown" and her shoulder tattoo used to also read "property of the joker" and now reads "property of no one" further showing how she's moved on from the joker and has become her own individual person.
@@Nemisis007 Yes, but the issue with this is that SS didn’t give much (or any) scenes that depicted that ‘ownership’ as bad. I agree that maybe some of that was a conscious choice, but it’s simply bad directing if they didn’t highlight that fact in some way (maybe in one of her more sensitive scenes?). It would’ve really added some dimensionality to her character in SS.
Thats a cool interpretation but I really, really, really, really, really doubt David "lets get cara delevigne to run naked in the woods for...reasons" Ayer was thinking when he wrote that. And I have an easier time believing that Cathy Yan just didn't like how harley looked/was presented in suicide squad and wanted to change that. I doubt it was some convoluted and obscure lore fuckery. Basically Ayer wanted to see Margot Robbie in some suggestive clothing and Yan thought that shit was lame so she changed it
@@M_J456 | ok.
"Maybe you should stop and think how the male gaze has altered your view of women" hit hard. Ooof. Excellent essay on BoP vs. SS using the Male Gaze.
I'm curious what the author thinks of things like Cuties or Sigourney Weaver wanting to be nude at the end of Aliens... those are maybe more complex or nuanced examples to explore? This video was so well done, I wanna hear more...
i hated suicide squad for that. they turned the joker and harley quinn’s abusive relationship into one big fetishization. like, i doubt couples would want to be like them if they kept it the same as the comic books.
To be fair to Ayer, I think that might’ve been WB’s doing. Apparently there were a lot of scenes of Joker’s abuse that were cut along with a whole arc of Harley leaving him to keep fighting with the Suicide Squad that got cut because the abuse made test audiences uncomfortable (which yeah, abuse should make you uncomfortable, that’s the fucking point).
in the comics it is an abusive relationship, always has been.
Wait...we want people to want to be like the Joker and Harley Quinn? Why? I mean shouldn't we allow for characters that display things that are not to be aspired to?
Dumbest comment I've ever read wtf. They're two killers and the joker has always been abusive to Harley...
But their relationship is a BDSM, daddy/LG. It’s not meant to be romantic or sweet. The Joker is basically Harleys addiction and true love. She’s driven crazy by this love. Look all round DC there’s lots of crazy dysfunctional love. Batman and Catwoman are even more crazier
Your closing line was 👏everything👏