To keep in mind: Cersei outright says to Tyrion that it was arranged for Robert's wine to be switched out for a much more potent kind then he was used to. Lancel and Tyrek gave him the swiched wineskins and he got a lot more drunk than usual. The boar did rip him appart, but him being incapacitated at the start of the fight was 100% arranged. I've listened to the audiobook again very recently and, the way it is paced, it seems Cersei, post having that conversation with Ned, arranged for Robert not to come back. It really seems that either by bird or by rider, there was communication, she admits to switching the wine and by the time Tyrion gets there, she giving herself a good pat on the back. Says the boar (wich Robert ordered served at a feast) tasted of triumph.
I still think it was luck tbh, but for a different reason. Let's be real, Cersei despises Robert and is eager for him to die so her son, and by proxy herself, can take over the rule. In Bran II her and Jaime are already talking about Robert's death and how the sooner it happens the better, and she also tried to kill him during the melee. Personally I believe she had been pulling this trick already for years and this just happened to be the time it worked.
I still think it was luck. She may have been pushing harder to have Robert to die, but we know she's tried multiple times to have Robert have an 'accidental' death. I'm not going to say that it was purely luck or anything, but she got lucky that it worked this time, even if she made a concentrated effort to increase her chances of success. But you made some very good observations.
Except that Robert already left for the hunt when Cersei and Ned had the conversation. The conversation with Ned wasn’t what tipped her off, Robert was already being poisoned. On top of that, it can’t be the conversation with Ned because in Cersei’s POV we get the info that it was Sansa tipping her off that made her put the plan into motion.
Robert is a mystery. He claims to hate the Lannisters yet he gives them more and more power. He has a loyal brother in Stannis who would have is back, still he treats him like the enemy. I hate that he dragged poor Ned into his mess and screw Caitlin for pushing Ed into accepting that horrible job. Thanks for another great podcast D&ME. 🥰
Loving these! Part of the dynamic between these two….. I’ve always had the vibe that Robert was in love with the idea of being married to Lyanna Stark rather than actually being in love with the girl herself as such. And Ned understood this, while Robert doesn’t process it that way in his mind.
Ned hates Jamie. Ned hates what Robert did and continues to have to do to become king Ned hates having to come south Ned hates Tywin for not picking s side earlier and for killing innocents when he did. How many would have been saved if Tywin openly declares for Robert sooner? Anyway, great job as always. Keep up the good work.
I thought at the end of the last "ned's not dumb" video, we were getting ready to discuss how ned didn't use his status as a lord to get a trial by combat and save his honor. Feels like backtracking with this one. Ned's a military expert i don't think anyone should question the steps he took or was willing to take as a fighter.
Plus Ned was injured in his combat with Jaime and his men earlier. Added with being in unsavoury and malnourishing conditions in the black cells, Ned would be in poor condition to defend his honour via 'trial by combat'.
Robert's the probable most misunderstood character in the books as people hate the man that destroyed "Romeo and Juliet" aka the emo and let's do something crazy girl. So many of his solo scenes with Ned show a man with vigor and spirit while the crown destoryed him. Especially these rereads the characters are just so different to me growing up and seeing the pov again. Like theon as sometimes in life you just laugh as you nothing else to do about it.
@@bubblegum1366 Arya is a child. Lyanna was a grown women in her day and age especially her who was betrothed to Robert at the time. Stop trying to justify her bad decisions with this day and age ages and even then she would still be wrong and rhegar would only look worse. So your choice is lyanna is blameless and rhegar is twice as bad or both are terrible. You lose either way. Lyanna is awful And knew exactly what she was doing same as Sansa ratting out her father's plan and cat releasing Jaime and everything bad she did. No excuse just because they are women or "young" as again Arya is smart enough to never do this ever as she is btw younger than them and smarter as well. Same as Dany who tries to look for ways to not blame rhegar to pin it on ellia.
@@ivanbluecool Actually by the standards of the universe Lyanna WAS a child. You don't become an adult I Westerosi society until you're 16, and she was 14. Barely older than Sansa who everyone in universe refers to as a child. Same with Robb and Jon when they were 14. I don't know why you brought her gender into it since I never mentioned it? Nobody excuses her because she's a girl they excuse her because she's a whole child. Arya knows better because of what she has been through for the last two years, what she has witnessed and what she had to do to survive. Same with Sansa, who also wouldn't fall for it because she's been burned enough times. But cut out the events of the story and take them directly from Winterfell and I guarantee they wouldn't because they had no context to do so. Cat is a grown ass woman and her dumbass choices have no excuse, but holding literal children to the same standard is ridiculous.
@@bubblegum1366 nope still wrong and badly at that. She like Sansa was betrothed around the same age and you only need to look at the books as other northern women younger than her had kids and families and that was completely fine so lyanna would not be excused regardless and 14 was the youngest someone could be to have kids back then so no she doesn't get any better as I explain it. Life expectancy was lower same with marriage age. Plus using guys as an example is flawed too as girls have a different age to be considered mature as guys do and that's what Ned sees and even he wants bran to grow up ealry by taking him to his first execution and that is a show of it to a younger generation. Basically she was dumb enough and knew exactly what she did and the war is on her head as much as rhegar. Killing her brother and dad was enough but many high Lord's sons died in the war and caused future trouble for Ned as well. And even if you don't believe any of this. She is still wrong as she broke a marriage vow aka a contract for both families to be binded together and she isn't excused from this either as history shows with dunk having to kill his old friend because of egg's son breaking his vow same way as lyanna did. People die and lyanna was the catalyst as much as rhegar. Also a hypocrite for her thinking Robert would not be loyal yet she goes to sleep with a married man and Robert fights an entire war for her.
Question? Why was Robert fostered in the Erie? He was the heir to Stormsend. Shouldn’t Stanis have been the one to be fostered with Jon Arryn? Ned was not the air to Winterfell
There is something that this chapter always triggers every time I hear it : the usurper and his dogs. This whole interaction on rereads makes me really question if Viserys would truly have been afraid of Robert. In A Dany chapter (I believe it was In Clash could have been Storm tho) she says Darry died of the ever convient "wasting sickness", Dany was young enough at that time to not truly understand what was happening and Viserys was smart enough to understand it more then likely was a poisoning. But all that leads back to the question would Tywin who just raised the Lannister banners in KL after taking the city let Rhaella and Viserys (Dany wasn't common knowledge at the time) actually live? I really don't think so and that makes me question Dany's birth (at least Rhaella's death circumstances), Viserys and the babes escape because as soon as Ned's outta town on his way to Storms End I don't see Tywin just saying "ok duces marry my daughter imma go back to Casterly Rock", his motivation was always the throne, the power, the status and image of house Lannister, and second was his never ending personal one-up war with Aerys. There is no way Tywin is letting any of Aerys children or wife survive they're arguably a bigger threat to the Lannister's and the rebels then Elia and Rhaegar's children were. Dragonstones what 3 days away from KL.... but Noone did anything till 9 months later? It makes very little sense none of this information is give even from Pycelle's one sided perspective. But that leads back to the Brave Companions, when they're introduced along with Tywin's Dogs, it actually makes me question how long has Tywin had the Bloody Mummers on retainer? When they're "called over" by Tywin it sounded that they have been dealing with each other longer then TWOT5K.
34:09 so they say that Jaime was 17 during the sack of King’s Landing? But he was 15 when he joined the Kingsguard during the tourney at Harrenhal so there you go another piece of evidence that the rebellion was in 284 and not in 283!
Interesting comment about Dawn. This reminded me about the fact that other readers have pointed out that The Others are described as pale white and descriptors like that. Could this be a hint that Dawn is made from Other tech (either instead of being made from a meteor, or because The Others also make their stuff from meteors)?
The exact quote about the wheelhouse Robert was flushed and exhilarated as Ned reined up beside her. “Gods,” he swore, laughing, “it feels good to get out and ride, the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad.” He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon. “That damnable wheelhouse, the way it creaks and groans, climbing every bump in the road as if it were a mountain…I promise you, if that wretched thing breaks another axle, I’m going to burn it and Cersei can walk!” Ned laughed. “I will gladly light the torch for you.”
While I'm not persuaded by N+A=J thus far, I try to keep an open mind because I'm willing to believe crazier things, so I can't rightly dismiss it just for being unconvinced to this point. In any case, one of the biggest impediments to the theory for me is Ned and Robert's dialogue here. Why lie to Robert about Jon's mother? Robert is the one person in the world who wouldn't judge Ned, no matter her identity or the circumstances surrounding Ned's relationship with her. To my mind, the only reason Ned would lie to Robert is if Ned wasn't the father and whoever Jon's actual parents are would upset him. Something else that gives me pause from this conversation is that Robert doesn't guess Ashara as a possibility for Jon's mother even though Robert was at Harrenhal when Ned and Ashara met, and with Ned during his time in the Eyrie when the secret dalliance supposedly occurred. Again, not saying it can't be true; I'm not chiding anyone who thinks it is; just sharing two tidbits from the conversation that prevent me from buying in. Great episode as always. Look forward to the next one💚🤚.
I found it odd that Robert asked Ned about Jon's mother by saying she was the dark haired, big eyed woman then remarked that Ned had never told him what she looked like. So where did he come up with that description?
Maybe "Robert's assassins" were not an imagination of Viserys. The king obviously let his courtiers run things, which may let them send attackers under his name without knowlegde. The Targaryens have other enemies aswell. Viserys could have wrongly identified them as he was scared and Robert's actions had killed the rest of his family.
Jon and the Martels came to an understanding that a long standing dynasty is far better than the rule of the power grabbing Lannisters. As it was evident during the reign of the last Targaryen king that Tywin aspired to be more than just influential in the ruling of the realm.
Maybe the North is the only Kingdom that over the years had kept the Barrows as an actual landmark.. You might be able to say better… But as the North is the only Kingdom where the Old Gods / First Men customs are still practiced in mass… Perhaps that is why the Barrows haven’t been disturbed. Whereas in the Southern Kingdoms.. Those traditions and customs would have died off over time and the barrows in this Kingdoms built over, forgotten, etc.. Just a thought…
Something interesting I found in this chapter “You think I should mistrust Lannister because he sat on my throne for a few moments?” He shook with laughter again. “Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy.” If SEVENTEEN makes Jaime “Scarce more than a boy” how does Ned let FOURTEEN year old JON join the watch?
Mary-Ellen is right. Ned doesn't just hate Tywin, he also hates Jaime. And Jaime knew it when Ned walked in the throne room after the sack of King's Landing. Jaime is an Oathbreaker to him. Of the 1 job he needed to do he did the opposite. You also don't reveal your plot, period. It was stupid regardless if Robert returned or not. They would have found some other way to catch or kill Ned. You don't need to fold so quickly Mary-Ellen. You were right on this.
Do you believe Doran had actually betrothed Arianne to Viserys? Arianne says her father is a calculated man and only picks a side if he knows 100% it's gonna win, but Viserys is pretty much a lost cause. He has no wealth, no armies, and Doran doesn't try to help him or Daenerys all these years. What was his plan? To wait for Viserys to make it on his own and if he managed to invade Westeros with a large army then support him, or would he marry Arianna to a landless pretender with no power?
Regarding your comments on the burrow lands, it could be speculated that there was a giant war in the reach which is why it is soo fertile, maybe the war of the dawn began in the reach with the army of the dead and white walkers slaughtering of the first men.
That annotation seems to point to at least one discrepancy in viserys' story. Given all the hints that dany is actually rhaegar and lyanna's daughter (dragon waking below winterfell, which where yall think they hid lyanna, rhaegar looking right at dany when he says there must be a third, etc.) i think this is george giving more hints that dany's backstory is not as clear as you think it is.
There could be barrows south of the neck I think the difference is these barrows are largely untouched by the Andels they have t been desecrated the north is described as being extremely wild and untamed
Ned hates Jaime not because he broke his vows, but because he did it at the most convenient moment for him and his house: I think Ned sees Jaime as a coward for not taking action before the Lannister army was at King's Landing This makes Jaime look opportunistic in Ned's eyes at best, and a planned coup organized by Tywin at worst.
If only Ned had actually went up to Jamie and at least say "yo, what the fucc happened here and why did you kill your king, ill try to understand." Then their needless distain for each other would at least be significantly less, along with Jamie's honor and reputation as "kingslayer". And they should have taken Rhegar as a prisoner to not only get Lyanna's location, but we'd know what he was gonna say before Bobby B smashed his chest in.
I've often wondered what would have happened if Jaime explained his actions to Ned. We know Ned would have helped him with the wildfire and I wonder if he would have had sympathy for Jaime. We know he values someone's character more than their image (look at his own) and seeing Jaime break his vows to save millions of lives would be something Ned could understand. I don't think they become friendly or anything. But their would be understanding and possibly even a mutual respect.
1. I can see Jaime and Ned drinking together if Ned somehow decided to ask Jaime... 2. It wasn't clearly described, as far as I know, but I got a vibe that the Battle of Trident was won in a way Jaime was hoping to win the Whispering Wood. Rebel forces were losing, but then Robert assembled every sword on a horse he could find, charged towards Rhaegar and killed him. After Rhaegar got killed, the loyalists basically fell apart and were beaten. So, taking Rhaegar prisoner wasn't really an option.
When Ned says "but you can't get your hands on this one" I can't help but think there is more to it. What if he actually helped get the Targaryen children out of Westeros? Or he might mean the R+L=J baby, whichever one that is.
Ned had another memory of lyanna saying "promise me, Ned" in this chapter but neither of you mentioned it. Is it because that idea just wasnt going anywhere or did you guys not catch it? Who am i kidding? You guys eyes are just as sharp as Jons so....whats up with him thinking that again here ya think?
To keep in mind: Cersei outright says to Tyrion that it was arranged for Robert's wine to be switched out for a much more potent kind then he was used to. Lancel and Tyrek gave him the swiched wineskins and he got a lot more drunk than usual. The boar did rip him appart, but him being incapacitated at the start of the fight was 100% arranged. I've listened to the audiobook again very recently and, the way it is paced, it seems Cersei, post having that conversation with Ned, arranged for Robert not to come back. It really seems that either by bird or by rider, there was communication, she admits to switching the wine and by the time Tyrion gets there, she giving herself a good pat on the back. Says the boar (wich Robert ordered served at a feast) tasted of triumph.
I still think it was luck tbh, but for a different reason. Let's be real, Cersei despises Robert and is eager for him to die so her son, and by proxy herself, can take over the rule. In Bran II her and Jaime are already talking about Robert's death and how the sooner it happens the better, and she also tried to kill him during the melee. Personally I believe she had been pulling this trick already for years and this just happened to be the time it worked.
I still think it was luck. She may have been pushing harder to have Robert to die, but we know she's tried multiple times to have Robert have an 'accidental' death. I'm not going to say that it was purely luck or anything, but she got lucky that it worked this time, even if she made a concentrated effort to increase her chances of success. But you made some very good observations.
Except that Robert already left for the hunt when Cersei and Ned had the conversation. The conversation with Ned wasn’t what tipped her off, Robert was already being poisoned.
On top of that, it can’t be the conversation with Ned because in Cersei’s POV we get the info that it was Sansa tipping her off that made her put the plan into motion.
Robert is a mystery. He claims to hate the Lannisters yet he gives them more and more power. He has a loyal brother in Stannis who would have is back, still he treats him like the enemy. I hate that he dragged poor Ned into his mess and screw Caitlin for pushing Ed into accepting that horrible job. Thanks for another great podcast D&ME. 🥰
Loving these!
Part of the dynamic between these two….. I’ve always had the vibe that Robert was in love with the idea of being married to Lyanna Stark rather than actually being in love with the girl herself as such. And Ned understood this, while Robert doesn’t process it that way in his mind.
Ned hates Jamie.
Ned hates what Robert did and continues to have to do to become king
Ned hates having to come south
Ned hates Tywin for not picking s side earlier and for killing innocents when he did.
How many would have been saved if Tywin openly declares for Robert sooner?
Anyway, great job as always. Keep up the good work.
Every year we need Ned more than ever but he is gone now. Did his best in the worst possible situation thrown on him many times in his life.
I thought at the end of the last "ned's not dumb" video, we were getting ready to discuss how ned didn't use his status as a lord to get a trial by combat and save his honor. Feels like backtracking with this one. Ned's a military expert i don't think anyone should question the steps he took or was willing to take as a fighter.
why would ned risk trial by combat when him going to the wall was arranged?
Plus Ned was injured in his combat with Jaime and his men earlier. Added with being in unsavoury and malnourishing conditions in the black cells, Ned would be in poor condition to defend his honour via 'trial by combat'.
10:33 In the south, the barrows were looted and destroyed, built on, by the Andals
Robert's the probable most misunderstood character in the books as people hate the man that destroyed "Romeo and Juliet" aka the emo and let's do something crazy girl. So many of his solo scenes with Ned show a man with vigor and spirit while the crown destoryed him.
Especially these rereads the characters are just so different to me growing up and seeing the pov again. Like theon as sometimes in life you just laugh as you nothing else to do about it.
By "let's do something crazy girl" you mean the literal child, right?
@@bubblegum1366 Arya is a child. Lyanna was a grown women in her day and age especially her who was betrothed to Robert at the time. Stop trying to justify her bad decisions with this day and age ages and even then she would still be wrong and rhegar would only look worse. So your choice is lyanna is blameless and rhegar is twice as bad or both are terrible. You lose either way.
Lyanna is awful And knew exactly what she was doing same as Sansa ratting out her father's plan and cat releasing Jaime and everything bad she did. No excuse just because they are women or "young" as again Arya is smart enough to never do this ever as she is btw younger than them and smarter as well. Same as Dany who tries to look for ways to not blame rhegar to pin it on ellia.
@@ivanbluecool Actually by the standards of the universe Lyanna WAS a child. You don't become an adult I Westerosi society until you're 16, and she was 14. Barely older than Sansa who everyone in universe refers to as a child. Same with Robb and Jon when they were 14. I don't know why you brought her gender into it since I never mentioned it? Nobody excuses her because she's a girl they excuse her because she's a whole child. Arya knows better because of what she has been through for the last two years, what she has witnessed and what she had to do to survive. Same with Sansa, who also wouldn't fall for it because she's been burned enough times. But cut out the events of the story and take them directly from Winterfell and I guarantee they wouldn't because they had no context to do so.
Cat is a grown ass woman and her dumbass choices have no excuse, but holding literal children to the same standard is ridiculous.
@@bubblegum1366 nope still wrong and badly at that. She like Sansa was betrothed around the same age and you only need to look at the books as other northern women younger than her had kids and families and that was completely fine so lyanna would not be excused regardless and 14 was the youngest someone could be to have kids back then so no she doesn't get any better as I explain it. Life expectancy was lower same with marriage age.
Plus using guys as an example is flawed too as girls have a different age to be considered mature as guys do and that's what Ned sees and even he wants bran to grow up ealry by taking him to his first execution and that is a show of it to a younger generation.
Basically she was dumb enough and knew exactly what she did and the war is on her head as much as rhegar. Killing her brother and dad was enough but many high Lord's sons died in the war and caused future trouble for Ned as well.
And even if you don't believe any of this. She is still wrong as she broke a marriage vow aka a contract for both families to be binded together and she isn't excused from this either as history shows with dunk having to kill his old friend because of egg's son breaking his vow same way as lyanna did. People die and lyanna was the catalyst as much as rhegar. Also a hypocrite for her thinking Robert would not be loyal yet she goes to sleep with a married man and Robert fights an entire war for her.
Question? Why was Robert fostered in the Erie? He was the heir to Stormsend. Shouldn’t Stanis have been the one to be fostered with Jon Arryn? Ned was not the air to Winterfell
Wow the conversation about the horrors of the past really hit home. Especially regarding current events
THANK YOU for doing this. I love chapter breakdowns and seeing how others interpret things and notice things I haven’t
There is something that this chapter always triggers every time I hear it : the usurper and his dogs. This whole interaction on rereads makes me really question if Viserys would truly have been afraid of Robert. In A Dany chapter (I believe it was In Clash could have been Storm tho) she says Darry died of the ever convient "wasting sickness", Dany was young enough at that time to not truly understand what was happening and Viserys was smart enough to understand it more then likely was a poisoning. But all that leads back to the question would Tywin who just raised the Lannister banners in KL after taking the city let Rhaella and Viserys (Dany wasn't common knowledge at the time) actually live? I really don't think so and that makes me question Dany's birth (at least Rhaella's death circumstances), Viserys and the babes escape because as soon as Ned's outta town on his way to Storms End I don't see Tywin just saying "ok duces marry my daughter imma go back to Casterly Rock", his motivation was always the throne, the power, the status and image of house Lannister, and second was his never ending personal one-up war with Aerys. There is no way Tywin is letting any of Aerys children or wife survive they're arguably a bigger threat to the Lannister's and the rebels then Elia and Rhaegar's children were. Dragonstones what 3 days away from KL.... but Noone did anything till 9 months later? It makes very little sense none of this information is give even from Pycelle's one sided perspective. But that leads back to the Brave Companions, when they're introduced along with Tywin's Dogs, it actually makes me question how long has Tywin had the Bloody Mummers on retainer? When they're "called over" by Tywin it sounded that they have been dealing with each other longer then TWOT5K.
34:09 so they say that Jaime was 17 during the sack of King’s Landing? But he was 15 when he joined the Kingsguard during the tourney at Harrenhal so there you go another piece of evidence that the rebellion was in 284 and not in 283!
Interesting comment about Dawn. This reminded me about the fact that other readers have pointed out that The Others are described as pale white and descriptors like that. Could this be a hint that Dawn is made from Other tech (either instead of being made from a meteor, or because The Others also make their stuff from meteors)?
I am loving this upload schedule: making my Mondays and Fridays many times easier
The exact quote about the wheelhouse
Robert was flushed and exhilarated as Ned reined up beside her. “Gods,” he swore, laughing, “it feels good to get out and ride, the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad.” He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon. “That damnable wheelhouse, the way it creaks and groans, climbing every bump in the road as if it were a mountain…I promise you, if that wretched thing breaks another axle, I’m going to burn it and Cersei can walk!”
Ned laughed. “I will gladly light the torch for you.”
valid point about robert and jaime
Thanks for always pushing out quality content.
Thank you ser and My Lady For the chapter Analysis
While I'm not persuaded by N+A=J thus far, I try to keep an open mind because I'm willing to believe crazier things, so I can't rightly dismiss it just for being unconvinced to this point. In any case, one of the biggest impediments to the theory for me is Ned and Robert's dialogue here. Why lie to Robert about Jon's mother? Robert is the one person in the world who wouldn't judge Ned, no matter her identity or the circumstances surrounding Ned's relationship with her. To my mind, the only reason Ned would lie to Robert is if Ned wasn't the father and whoever Jon's actual parents are would upset him. Something else that gives me pause from this conversation is that Robert doesn't guess Ashara as a possibility for Jon's mother even though Robert was at Harrenhal when Ned and Ashara met, and with Ned during his time in the Eyrie when the secret dalliance supposedly occurred.
Again, not saying it can't be true; I'm not chiding anyone who thinks it is; just sharing two tidbits from the conversation that prevent me from buying in. Great episode as always. Look forward to the next one💚🤚.
Wylla read backwards sounds like "alive"
I found it odd that Robert asked Ned about Jon's mother by saying she was the dark haired, big eyed woman then remarked that Ned had never told him what she looked like. So where did he come up with that description?
You guys are amazing thank you
lol! nice name!!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand why thank you
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand when is the next chapter coming out?
Maybe "Robert's assassins" were not an imagination of Viserys.
The king obviously let his courtiers run things, which may let them send attackers under his name without knowlegde. The Targaryens have other enemies aswell. Viserys could have wrongly identified them as he was scared and Robert's actions had killed the rest of his family.
Thanks again you guys!!!!!
The house with the red door is in tyrosh!!! The wine merchant to trys to poison Danny, says 'you are tyroshy' and Danny says '
Jon and the Martels came to an understanding that a long standing dynasty is far better than the rule of the power grabbing Lannisters. As it was evident during the reign of the last Targaryen king that Tywin aspired to be more than just influential in the ruling of the realm.
Maybe the North is the only Kingdom that over the years had kept the Barrows as an actual landmark..
You might be able to say better… But as the North is the only Kingdom where the Old Gods / First Men customs are still practiced in mass… Perhaps that is why the Barrows haven’t been disturbed.
Whereas in the Southern Kingdoms.. Those traditions and customs would have died off over time and the barrows in this Kingdoms built over, forgotten, etc..
Just a thought…
Thank you!
Something interesting I found in this chapter
“You think I should mistrust Lannister because he sat on my throne for a few moments?” He shook with laughter again. “Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy.”
If SEVENTEEN makes Jaime “Scarce more than a boy” how does Ned let FOURTEEN year old JON join the watch?
wow !! more nails in neds coffin in my book !!!
Mary-Ellen is right. Ned doesn't just hate Tywin, he also hates Jaime. And Jaime knew it when Ned walked in the throne room after the sack of King's Landing. Jaime is an Oathbreaker to him. Of the 1 job he needed to do he did the opposite.
You also don't reveal your plot, period. It was stupid regardless if Robert returned or not. They would have found some other way to catch or kill Ned.
You don't need to fold so quickly Mary-Ellen. You were right on this.
"Fair enough" - Dave 35:27
Do you believe Doran had actually betrothed Arianne to Viserys? Arianne says her father is a calculated man and only picks a side if he knows 100% it's gonna win, but Viserys is pretty much a lost cause. He has no wealth, no armies, and Doran doesn't try to help him or Daenerys all these years. What was his plan? To wait for Viserys to make it on his own and if he managed to invade Westeros with a large army then support him, or would he marry Arianna to a landless pretender with no power?
Thanks Dave and Mary Ellen. Did you guys happen to see the peaky blinders season premiere yet ? ( it was on television here yesterday)
not yet !!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhandenjoy
Regarding your comments on the burrow lands, it could be speculated that there was a giant war in the reach which is why it is soo fertile, maybe the war of the dawn began in the reach with the army of the dead and white walkers slaughtering of the first men.
That annotation seems to point to at least one discrepancy in viserys' story. Given all the hints that dany is actually rhaegar and lyanna's daughter (dragon waking below winterfell, which where yall think they hid lyanna, rhaegar looking right at dany when he says there must be a third, etc.) i think this is george giving more hints that dany's backstory is not as clear as you think it is.
There could be barrows south of the neck I think the difference is these barrows are largely untouched by the Andels they have t been desecrated the north is described as being extremely wild and untamed
Ned hates Jaime not because he broke his vows, but because he did it at the most convenient moment for him and his house: I think Ned sees Jaime as a coward for not taking action before the Lannister army was at King's Landing This makes Jaime look opportunistic in Ned's eyes at best, and a planned coup organized by Tywin at worst.
Dave please turn up your Mic! or stop whispering..love this series keep'em coming guys.
I think Jacobs had the right idea 💡 they want them to kill each other then take what's left
And make a big Rhoynish Restoration with introducing women's rights and social security!
Crazy thing is, King Robert is only in his mid-30s
What I don’t get about Jorah is that the nobility are seldom executed. It sets a bad precedent. They get exile or the wall.
If only Ned had actually went up to Jamie and at least say "yo, what the fucc happened here and why did you kill your king, ill try to understand." Then their needless distain for each other would at least be significantly less, along with Jamie's honor and reputation as "kingslayer". And they should have taken Rhegar as a prisoner to not only get Lyanna's location, but we'd know what he was gonna say before Bobby B smashed his chest in.
I've often wondered what would have happened if Jaime explained his actions to Ned. We know Ned would have helped him with the wildfire and I wonder if he would have had sympathy for Jaime. We know he values someone's character more than their image (look at his own) and seeing Jaime break his vows to save millions of lives would be something Ned could understand. I don't think they become friendly or anything. But their would be understanding and possibly even a mutual respect.
1. I can see Jaime and Ned drinking together if Ned somehow decided to ask Jaime...
2. It wasn't clearly described, as far as I know, but I got a vibe that the Battle of Trident was won in a way Jaime was hoping to win the Whispering Wood. Rebel forces were losing, but then Robert assembled every sword on a horse he could find, charged towards Rhaegar and killed him. After Rhaegar got killed, the loyalists basically fell apart and were beaten. So, taking Rhaegar prisoner wasn't really an option.
Robert knew of Viserys and Dani's whereabouts but didn't have them assassinated. How else would he know if it would've been easier?
Wouldn’t breaking his marriage vows by cheating also be in front of gods and men? Meaning he wouldn’t need new vows to be an issue
When Ned says "but you can't get your hands on this one" I can't help but think there is more to it. What if he actually helped get the Targaryen children out of Westeros? Or he might mean the R+L=J baby, whichever one that is.
Dracarys. 🐉🐲🐉
🙌
Dorne I mean
Ned had another memory of lyanna saying "promise me, Ned" in this chapter but neither of you mentioned it. Is it because that idea just wasnt going anywhere or did you guys not catch it? Who am i kidding? You guys eyes are just as sharp as Jons so....whats up with him thinking that again here ya think?
Thanks for breaking the story down for doofus's like myself lol
awww
OOTGH!!!!!!!
ned nooo :(
YOOOOOOOO
i like robert; but he's a bit of a puppet. surely having lannisters governing both east and west is a bad idea.