Funny thing is I was introduced to Meshuggah by a 90 yr old man. I was young and apparently stuff like that was too extreme for me but not a 90 yr old man. He loved it. Lol. I had to work my way up to it coming from Metallica and Megadeth.
With every video I find about Bleed, the mechanics of the song keep getting more and more complex. Now it's gotten to the point where even holding the pick makes a difference.
Man, thank you so much! I also suffered from the same fatigue like you described and was like: "What on earth am I doing wrong?" Very helpful! Thank you =)
I had the exact problem but I fixed it with a different solution. Just like you, I had sprained my index finger and I couldn't play for a few months. Your solution was to use your other fingers to support your pointer finger. My solution was to relax my hand. I basically had to rewire my brain to relax my grip when I play faster. The faster I picked, the more relaxed my grip would get. It was sooooo hard at first. It felt so natural to grip harder the faster I got. Now I had to do the opposite of what felt natural. I saw a video of Guthrie Govan talking about 32nd note strumming and he said that he can only do it while being super loose so I taught myself the same technique. Eventually I got used to it and now I can pick fast with no pain. I think it actually made me faster too. Its cool to see someone have a similar journey.
Indeed. To be honest, it seemed to me as if it's really the same thing except you're not closing it into a fist form but keeping it as a loose support? or I understood it wrong? You can indeed keep the grip a lot more relaxed since there's a big physical barrier holding it in place
I play the same way. I can't play fast unless my hand is good and relaxed. I had the same problem. I would hold the pick harder as I sped up. When I learned to relax my hand, my playing improved a lot, especially my sweeps.
Only thing there is it might make the tone a little less aggressive, you'll be hitting the strings a lot more gently. It's not wrong, I just don't know which way it's actually done
i had the same problem learning bleed, my solution was to just pummel through it without changing a thing and eventually building the gains whereby theres no stress anymore on the index joint lol jk i probably just relaxed the thumb side of the pick.. i guess
Your new way of holding a pick is my way of holding a pick since the first day I learned guitar with pick. It's amazing how people randomly have their own style of holding a pick. People's finger just have a tendency of how they hold the pick.
Same but I saw someone online playing like that before I even got a guitar so I deferred to that. Don’t really know anyone who holds the pick with their index uncurled
I've been playing that way since I began over 30 years ago and I never knew there was another way. The only difference is I keep my lower three fingers extended outwards instead of like a fist but they're all supporting my index finger unless I'm trying to play gently. I'm gonna try closing my fist when I play to see what changes.
Oh wow I've been playing metal rhythm for 20+ years and was trying to play this song for few months now, and got so frustrated with the same problem.. im so glad i found this video coz i never thought changing the way i pick can make such huge difference!! It literally changes everything. Thank you for this video and sharing the experince openly!
Bleed is one of my favorite songs man! The Wincent-Thomas Haake drum video came through my feed and I was hooked. I watched the video interview with Thomas and he said that it almost didn't make it on the album because it took him 6 months to learn the drums for it. The song took on a special meaning to me last November because my Mother had a brain bleed and I had never seen her in so much pain before. The lyrics became painfully clear. Unfortunately, she passed away In surgery the next day. So, bleed has a special meaning to me now. Not to get too morose but just wanted to share. Great video. Been enjoying your stuff. Keep it up.
Dude. Im left handed and play right hand guitar, and picking that fast has always been a struggle--my left hand runs circles around my right hand, even after 16 years of playing. I came across this video and literally not ONCE in my entire life have i ever even considered how i was holding my pick. I switched to the grip you showed and immediately i was picking faster and more accurately. Damn man im so glad i came across this video lol
I can't explain how much you helped me! I could not use pick for the life of me. I can play all the songs I know except the finger style!! This has changed my way of life man!
@@xanderraymondcharles seriously though you changed my playing forever! I have a 8 string on the way! When i get it would you like to see my progress? I wanna make TH-cam videos aswell but they don't get traction yet.
I played with my fist like that since I started playing guitar and everyone kept telling me it's wrong and that I look tense so I had to learn how to play with two fingers. I guess I'm going back to playing with a closed fist again lmao.
Dammmnnnn man. I just watched this video like 10 minutes ago because just like you I’ve been playing it “okay” style, tried it immediately after watching with “fist” style picking and literally nailed the rhythm. You are so awesome dude so glad you made this video
This is the way I have always naturally played. Its honestly difficult for me to play with the "OK sign". Everytime I try playing that way, my fingers naturally curl. Your totally right too when it comes to fatigue and having more strength with your picking hand. Alot more attack in your playing.
For anyone who try to learn this song this is a very good tip to change your picking hand into a fist. I usually play like hetfield with 2 finger grip but changed it only for this song and it works.
Dude right?! I’ve gotten the two intro riffs down and part of the verse and then I’m all fucked up hahah. It’s not hard to play just hard to memorize. It’s like simon says with the kick drum for 9 mins straight
I just recently memorized the Dancers riff "Confined, bereft of reason..." after trying on and off for a year. What made it click was looking at the different "layers" of the riff as individual parts (so what is the first of each six notes doing, what is the last of each six notes doing, what is the 3rd string doing, etc). That's where the patterns start to emerge. Great video btw
@@vamp2709 Wow, the hate is unnecessary. This guy had the fucking balls to put a video up while you're here being a Keyboard Warrior. You're bringing shame to real Metal and Suicidal fans. Go home troll...
Thank you! This was a lifesaver for me!!!:D I came across this tip a few times in the past, but never actually gave attention to it until now. Thank you!
Nice story :) I am not into this kind of metal yet, but I recently changed my picking technique in a way a bit similar to yours, and I was impressed at how I am now more in control, with less fatigue!
I learned to hold the pick from a video as well. It was a lesson by dave mustaine and he was holding the pick so just the bare minimum of the tip was visible. I thought "ok, that seems to be a great way to have more control and to play cleaner and faster. I should try this." So I did years ago. Still do. Holding it exactly the same way as you do. Palm mutes are also so much more comfortable like that. Can't even remember how to palm mute any other way that doesn't looks like it would hurt after 10 minutes. Look at the picking technique videos of those metal legends. It's really interesting and can make a huge step up on the playing. There are tons of interesting stuff in that term, including an analysis of the picking technique of Michael Angelo Batio, that makes shredding faster and more economical.
Hey, brother... great video! I'm definitely gonna start working on this technique. I've noticed that Jason Richardson seems to play with a similar picking technique, as well, and he talked about it when he was on with the Captain (Anderton's Music CO) last week. Thank you for your service, my friend!
@@Dylan_matkowsky how? Hertas are 2 16th notes with an 8th note behind, and those are hertas. Triplets are fitting two more notes in a bar. If you have quarter notes, you have 4 notes in a bar, triplets are 6 quarter notes in a bar. Learn your shit
learn the bass drum pattern on your hands before even attempting the feet. all of it is part of the 16th note grid. feel the pulse man, it's groovy af. once attempting it with the feet, lean back. don't put a ton of pressure on the pedals. Tomas Haake (Meshuggah's drummer) himself said he had to practice JUST the bass drum pattern for 6 months before it fell into place with the rest of the band. I've been going at it for a couple months myself, and it really is an extremely challenging song to keep that groove going. Meshuggah really are masters of groove, especially Haake.
I know exactly what your talking about man. I had the same scenario happen when I spent days trying to perfect The Escapist notion by the haarp machine, (the very first playthrough) I eventually got it down, but it changed my playing style, forever!!
Hey mike thanks so much for checking out the video. My website musictheoryformetal.com helps explain in more detail, and offers lessons with different examples and tunings. Thanks again!
I tried playing it in guitar center, I didn't even play it correctly, and I was still aching From that chugging. It changed your playing by needing wrist surgery since your muscles are broken.
Honestly, learning different songs/riffs from different bands can be immensely helpful for technique. Then you see when your technique falls apart or stays solid and you realize you may need to try out smth different.
As an intermidiate guitar player I've been playing with a closed palm for around a year now and I love it, its way more comfortable to play but to this day I find my pinky finger's tendens getting really tired from streching when I play a lot of hours in a week.
I play a 7 string esp ... Thats how I have played for years ... I use this similar method ... So more versital when making those ... My riiffing got way more intense and was able to come up with alot more material ... Glad I found this channel ... Thanks man keep on jamming
After my index finger hurt from gripping the pick to hard, and I had to pause playing for weeks, I also changed the way I hold my pick a few years ago. Before I held the pick with a more open hand and also ankered with the pinky on the guitar body below the highest string. I now support the index finger with the other fingers like you've illustrated. This a really valuable advice and I try to suggest it to other players when I can. Thank you for the video!
Great video! I think relaxing your picking hand is one of the biggest technical hurdles to overcome as a guitarist. There's a lot that isn't really intuitive about picking. People quite often begin guitar, get a teacher who tells them to simply do what "feels natural", and that will inform their approach to developing technique for many years, perhaps even their whole life. While this IS good advice, it also promotes a wishy-washy approach to some aspects of technique development. I've always tucked my other picking-hand fingers, but my picking hand developed a habit of really favoring my thumb and index to move the pick also. In some cases, this is beneficial: I can string-skip cleanly, and alternate pick arpeggios at moderate to fast speeds because jumping over the string feels "natural" to me. But, like many other people, I realized this was a very bad habit when trying to tremolo pick as your fingers flapping around quickly trick you into thinking that your picking hand is working harder than it is, and a lot of wrist-muscles are being under-utilized. So in spite of feeling "natural", it developed a motion that was ergonomically impossible to tremolo pick quickly with. Don't let feeling natural prevent you from trying to solve problems with your playing!
Makes a lot of sense to me. Put more fingers and force behind the pick to match the strength and stability of your thumb. I'm going to intergrate this for sure. Thanks
I feel like a song like that changes your playing no matter what. I already had the pick grip down, though I typically extend my bottom three fingers out in case I need to hybrid pick (not for this song obviously), but it really drew attention to how much I have a tendency to tighten my wrist when playing faster stuff. Might work for shorter bursts of speed, but when you keep that up for 7 minutes, it’s just not possible
3:11 , I stopped to write this. My shoulder is ruined and my neck is fractured. This makes it really hard to play, as you Ray are well aware of with your giant list of injuries. I Salute you btw. I'm hoping this will help get me to 180 bpm for a #SWOLA
This is the first thing my guitare teacher learn me, it was a game changer for me too, no more tension, relax playing. And to do an analogy, there is a lot of probability that Kirk hammett sometimes wrap his right hand fingers to add more weigh to his strokes like the close fist :)
I started using the same technique after Rob Chapman showed how he picks. Changed my life as well. It should be said that you don't necessarily have to make a fist. It's the curled index finger and straight thumb that's the important bit. Noice video, hopefully everyone takes your advice.
Late to the party but I learned to play using the same technique that you modified to. Except I read in a Guitar World on Metallica. The only difference is that I turn the pick so the tip of the pick points inward towards the palm of my hand. I find that it’s easier to play faster than when I have the tip exposed. Maybe try it out and see if that improves your speed as well. Great video
Since watching this vid like 2 years ago, I’ve been holding my pick like this. I started playing 3 years back and this helped me add consistency and speed to my playing.
You can also hold the plectrum with three fingers, sort of like you hold a pen, with the other two fingers as support. It takes a bit of the strain off the index finger. It’s sort of in between and increases precision a bit compared to making a full fist.
Late to the game on this video. Thank you so much. I come from the George Lynch school of the OK symbol picking style. I have an 8-string Meshuggah Ibanez on order. The "fist" pick hold is going into my arsenal and going to be practiced religiously. Thanks so much Ray!
Very observant you are fellow axe brother! I noticed Al DiMeola's right hand employs a similar technique on his Ovation acoustic days, the attack and speed! The "fist" technique is about balance either by wrist or elbow as fulcrum. You made me try it for these classic Meshuggah riffs. Thanks dude.
I'm going to take a moment and thank the one an only guy that gave me guitar lessons for my 1st month of my playing. After the first month I understood enough to quit the lessons thanks to him. Although I shouldn't have in hindsight. I could have gotten so much better if I hadn't gotten bored of the lessons. He told me to hold the pick like that from the beginning.
cool story on improving your technique bro! I went thru a very similar progression with the ok pick grip vs the fist style grip. Was doing the a ok grip for like 10 years... One day i was really thinking about what was holding back my playing the most, and realized a lot of it was technique issues. Part of my issues were too much strain in my picking hand, too much force put down on the neck with my fretting hand, and improper pick holding and pick strumming angles. Troy Grady ended up explaining what I had discovered about my playing not long after with cracking the code!
the same thing happened to me , and i find it by myself xD i was remembering the down picking of hetfield , and now i saw your video i am happy i am on the righ path 🙂 thank you
I've been using this picking technique for a really long time. I can't remember who I first heard it from, perhaps Mick Thompson or John Petrucci, but it was a serious game changer for me. The hardest part about bleed for me, other than the fact I don't own an 8 string, is the picking pattern. A triplet of down, up, down, followed by an upstroke. For years I tried to use down, up, down, down, like a traditional gallop, but it's too fatiguing. I only recently learned about how that song uses economy picking. Anyway, great video man, love the Strandberg! Looking at getting one myself.
I was having really tense forearm and wrist fatigue. so I was playing around with different positions, and this was actually my end result. good to know I'm not the only one that's doing it!
Better picking technique I think so too. Not for just Bleed but anything. Paul Gilbert is one of best alternate pickers, and holds pick like that. He talks about it in some video, showing in detail the exact same grip. I got lucky I guess, chose randomly to play with this grip from the start, and it stuck ever since. Although I think "pinch" grip can be used in relaxed manner too, excessive amount of force comes usually from trying to play faster than you can. Fast playing should always be somewhat relaxed, trying to up the speed too early leads into all kinds of tensions in the arm, trying to help with elbow etc... should all come from the relaxed wrist. But this grip has more support for the pick, it's just better grip overall
Rotating your forearm is much easier and not as tensed up as moving your entire hand up and down with your wrist ;) You can get even better if you meditate on your body tension, even small muscle parties play big roles. Back muscles, shoulder, triceps / biceps, shoulder blades, stomach muscles... loosen up your whole body and you'll get faster
Cool Man, I am going to try this know as I have the same problem with index finger pain. It would good to list all players that have this style. There are a lot of big names that do use this style, especially in Metal.(Perhaps a follow up video idea?)
Ayo , i haven't tried this technique yet , planning to wait for my first ever 7 and 8 string to arrive that i just ordered couple days ago , ( 7 string Jackson and 8 string Ibanez 😊 so hyped to try both of these for the first time) i don't got a pick in my hand at the moment, but even then i feel like im noticing a difference in hand motion strength trying to move my hand to the rhythm, you may have just found the secret code that alot of people should be talking about lol. Gonna sub just for that extra tidbit. Bought these 2 guitars cause I've been wanting to get into the heavier stuff for experimenting lol bleed by Meshuggah is one of the daunting challenges I plan to put on myself. Fingers crossed in the next couple months that i can keep up with some of the song
I can totally relate to this!! I actually changed the way I pick because the same thing happened to me the first time I went to a recording studio, and the producer taught me the exact same technique! And although it helped me a lot to have more grip and attack in my playing, the ultimate goal is to relax as much as you can (which is a hard thing to teach your brain)...if I knew that before I didn't get a tendinitis near my shoulder which is a real pain in the ass!
To be honest, how you hold the pick to play Bleed doesn’t matter. It’s really just a matter of relaxing your hand and picking each note with just enough momentum to slice through the string. It also helps to use Chris Broderick’s pick clip if you drop your pick trying to play this (though it’s a little alien feeling at first). I pick nearly the same way as your open hand style, and Bleed is the song I practice on my own 8 string to.
Ive been catching myself playing im that new style u do with the fist for the path three months and havent went back either sometimes i try and pull myself out of it but it feels so much better
I think it is a bit shameful how so many people feel they have to top one another. "Bleed" is not rhythmically simple. Just deciphering and learning the individual parts is challenging enough, never mind having to build up the endurance to complete the entire song. I did notice the "fist"-style picking Fredrik did in that tutorial, and it is nice to see someone pointing it out and bringing it to light. This video will help someone else overcome a hurdle in their playing; shouldn't that be all that really matters in the end? Great video. I enjoyed it. Just my thoughts.
Hey I really appreciate the kind words. Honestly I never expected this video to gain so much traction as well as so much hate. I just told my story of how I changed my picking style and it made it easier to play. I never said I'm so good or I can play better than you (the viewer). I was just trying to help. It's crazy how people will take their hate out on anything. But I 'd much rather it be me than someone else.
You made absolutely no assumption on your skill level being above or below anyone in particular. Even with such a neutral (proper) stance as you put forth, some still just have to hack things to pieces. With a mentality like that, it makes it a little easier to discard their validity. What concerns me is that such a generally negative attitude makes for such a discouraging environment, which may very well discourage an aspiring guitarist from trying to learn any further--and that's just a shame! =)
This video was very interesting for me in a way you probably wouldnt expect. As Fredrik is one of my favorite guitarist I watched a lot of his playing and once I picked up guitar myself I instantly just held the pick like he was. So I never really experienced the fatigue that you are talking about . But nonetheless, very interesting.
Luckily I learned proper picking technique before bleed came out, *still cant play it. Devin Townsend with his strapping young lad days, talking about string gauge and open c tuning. Showed his picks. Thick gauge triangle shaped ones that I haven't stopped using since. Feels nice and comfortable with this style of picking, the fist way.
When i did change my picking technique to a tucked fist i realised i suck at muting the higher strings with my fretting hand. Got to work on that now! Cheers
Funny you mention they way they hold the pick bc Martën Hagstrüm holds his pick the traditional ( " ok" ) way . Fredrik Thordëndal is the one that holds his pick the correct way. So really there's no right or wrong way to hold a pick. But it's just hard for people to transition to the "correct" way. I can alternate to both ways while playing, depending on certain parts. But at first it was hard to get use to. Now I do it without thinking about it. I guess it's all about preference and the angle of the pick. The correct way makes for cleaner and sharper attack on the strings.
Great points made, Ray; the pick position, its palm placement, and grip have got to be the most overlooked concepts of learning how to play the guitar (no matter how many strings, or genre). Your comments echo what Jason Richardson remarked during the winter NAMM 2018 during his interview - most people hold the pick wrong and expose themselves to huge fatigue-related & performance problems. If you haven’t done it already, check out the Cracking the Code series by Troy Grady - insanely good stuff - Troy has devoted his career to cracking the ultimate question, the understanding of how to hold & play with the darn thing :) Cheers!
Yeah, I always got worn out learning Metallica MOP songs (and a bit of Bleed, as well) and figured it just wasn't for me, either. I had been messing around with different picks, working on different angles to hold them for leads, etc. and came upon something close to the closed-fist approach you're using, with the other fingers curled up though behind the first finger still holding the pick the same as I always had, and it definitely has helped with thrash picking and even some lead work, though I think alternating to the traditional picking way helps me with some patterns. I'll definitely have to give your specific approach a try. It can be very enlightening to have been playing for decades and suddenly come upon something that changes a basic approach to playing that can still make a very positive difference. I'm glad you found that and it's working so well for you. 8)
I literally today wrote the comment praising Bleed for helping many musicians to fix their technique. lol) Including Tomas Haake himself as it turned out from his interview. So many comments about complexity of the song when the song is musically i'd say slightly below average but requires good technique and endurance to keep with the tempo.
I am going to get an 8 string once I get this rhythm part down. Boy it’s tough. I have played with a style that has changed over years but that has failed me when it came to Bleed.
ok, im an avid metal head and a drummer, but also of greek background, our cultural instrument a "bouzouki" is 8 strings, grouped in 4 pairs, ive been toying with it for a couple years, my first string instrument, have a friend teaching me and this new "revolutionary" pick grip of yours is the standard one we learn, funny
thx Ray! indeed patience is needed when learning Meshugga's songs, I think it took me about 2 weeks (more or less one hour per day) to be able to play the first and amazing riff from "in death is life" without a glitch! (though that one is more about learning the pattern than anything technique) I will work on bleed using the right wrist technique and slowly with a metronome.
What's the intro song bro?Thanks.
Hey man that’s a song I wrote it’s on my ep called starlit cavern. The song is called resurgence. The link is in the bio
th-cam.com/video/VM0MhMjmD7U/w-d-xo.html
@@xanderraymondcharles love that riff! 🤘
Thanks man!
Hear strong Keith Merrow influence in it
Funny thing is I was introduced to Meshuggah by a 90 yr old man. I was young and apparently stuff like that was too extreme for me but not a 90 yr old man. He loved it. Lol. I had to work my way up to it coming from Metallica and Megadeth.
That is actually awesome.
thats badass
🧢
Megadeth is my favorite band
I started with Metallica also haha
With every video I find about Bleed, the mechanics of the song keep getting more and more complex. Now it's gotten to the point where even holding the pick makes a difference.
Man, thank you so much! I also suffered from the same fatigue like you described and was like: "What on earth am I doing wrong?" Very helpful! Thank you =)
I had the exact problem but I fixed it with a different solution. Just like you, I had sprained my index finger and I couldn't play for a few months. Your solution was to use your other fingers to support your pointer finger. My solution was to relax my hand. I basically had to rewire my brain to relax my grip when I play faster. The faster I picked, the more relaxed my grip would get. It was sooooo hard at first. It felt so natural to grip harder the faster I got. Now I had to do the opposite of what felt natural. I saw a video of Guthrie Govan talking about 32nd note strumming and he said that he can only do it while being super loose so I taught myself the same technique. Eventually I got used to it and now I can pick fast with no pain. I think it actually made me faster too. Its cool to see someone have a similar journey.
Indeed. To be honest, it seemed to me as if it's really the same thing except you're not closing it into a fist form but keeping it as a loose support?
or I understood it wrong? You can indeed keep the grip a lot more relaxed since there's a big physical barrier holding it in place
I play the same way. I can't play fast unless my hand is good and relaxed. I had the same problem. I would hold the pick harder as I sped up. When I learned to relax my hand, my playing improved a lot, especially my sweeps.
Only thing there is it might make the tone a little less aggressive, you'll be hitting the strings a lot more gently. It's not wrong, I just don't know which way it's actually done
i had the same problem learning bleed, my solution was to just pummel through it without changing a thing and eventually building the gains whereby theres no stress anymore on the index joint lol jk i probably just relaxed the thumb side of the pick.. i guess
The abundance of "0's" in this vid is astonishing
You mean 5s?
"00000000000" is great because it serves both as tabs and lyrics.
Your new way of holding a pick is my way of holding a pick since the first day I learned guitar with pick.
It's amazing how people randomly have their own style of holding a pick. People's finger just have a tendency of how they hold the pick.
bayu mantari same here man. That’s how i started picking. But it’s really cool like u said. Different types of styles and what not!:)
Same but I saw someone online playing like that before I even got a guitar so I deferred to that. Don’t really know anyone who holds the pick with their index uncurled
Bad Word James hetfield holds the pick like a potato chip with three fingers
Dylan Doe that scares me
I've been playing that way since I began over 30 years ago and I never knew there was another way. The only difference is I keep my lower three fingers extended outwards instead of like a fist but they're all supporting my index finger unless I'm trying to play gently. I'm gonna try closing my fist when I play to see what changes.
Oh wow I've been playing metal rhythm for 20+ years and was trying to play this song for few months now, and got so frustrated with the same problem.. im so glad i found this video coz i never thought changing the way i pick can make such huge difference!! It literally changes everything. Thank you for this video and sharing the experince openly!
Bleed is one of my favorite songs man! The Wincent-Thomas Haake drum video came through my feed and I was hooked. I watched the video interview with Thomas and he said that it almost didn't make it on the album because it took him 6 months to learn the drums for it. The song took on a special meaning to me last November because my Mother had a brain bleed and I had never seen her in so much pain before. The lyrics became painfully clear. Unfortunately, she passed away In surgery the next day. So, bleed has a special meaning to me now. Not to get too morose but just wanted to share. Great video. Been enjoying your stuff. Keep it up.
Dude. Im left handed and play right hand guitar, and picking that fast has always been a struggle--my left hand runs circles around my right hand, even after 16 years of playing. I came across this video and literally not ONCE in my entire life have i ever even considered how i was holding my pick. I switched to the grip you showed and immediately i was picking faster and more accurately. Damn man im so glad i came across this video lol
I can't explain how much you helped me! I could not use pick for the life of me. I can play all the songs I know except the finger style!! This has changed my way of life man!
Thank you so much for your comment. This means so much to me knowing I helped someone get better!
@@xanderraymondcharles seriously though you changed my playing forever! I have a 8 string on the way! When i get it would you like to see my progress? I wanna make TH-cam videos aswell but they don't get traction yet.
@@xanderraymondcharles I already have a video up showing my progress lol
This is really true!! The fist really helps in playing effortlessly. I can relate bro!
I played with my fist like that since I started playing guitar and everyone kept telling me it's wrong and that I look tense so I had to learn how to play with two fingers. I guess I'm going back to playing with a closed fist again lmao.
Dude im 15 and this video already changed my life thank you so much for sharing this with everyone
Dammmnnnn man. I just watched this video like 10 minutes ago because just like you I’ve been playing it “okay” style, tried it immediately after watching with “fist” style picking and literally nailed the rhythm. You are so awesome dude so glad you made this video
Hell yeah zach! So glad you’re able to get it down!
Thats awesome bro! *FIST bump* \m/
Thanks Matt!
How many times does he say "Bleed by Meshuggah"?
If we was playing a drinking game we would all have alcohol poisoning..
Man not sure if you still get notifications for this vid but it honestly changed everything picking for me, couldn't be more grateful!
Yessir I am! Thank you Sean! I hope it helps you get this riff down! 🤘🏼
Honestly if I had an 8 string I would totally be at it, I'm mainly a bass player but even still it changed pick wise
This legitimately just helped me play Bleed better
That’s what I like to hear! Glad to help you out
This is the way I have always naturally played. Its honestly difficult for me to play with the "OK sign". Everytime I try playing that way, my fingers naturally curl. Your totally right too when it comes to fatigue and having more strength with your picking hand. Alot more attack in your playing.
I tried this out and now I can play wonderwall
For anyone who try to learn this song this is a very good tip to change your picking hand into a fist. I usually play like hetfield with 2 finger grip but changed it only for this song and it works.
Lemme tell you a song that's hard on a new level. Dancers to a discordant system by meshuggah. The patterns in that song are all over the place
Dude right?! I’ve gotten the two intro riffs down and part of the verse and then I’m all fucked up hahah. It’s not hard to play just hard to memorize. It’s like simon says with the kick drum for 9 mins straight
I just recently memorized the Dancers riff "Confined, bereft of reason..." after trying on and off for a year. What made it click was looking at the different "layers" of the riff as individual parts (so what is the first of each six notes doing, what is the last of each six notes doing, what is the 3rd string doing, etc). That's where the patterns start to emerge. Great video btw
The riff is basically the same, but its displaced one 8th note triplet. listen to any of their stuff and you'll see its this same pattern.
Amazing cover th-cam.com/video/MyckFsxeylE/w-d-xo.html
I assume you’ve never touched those higher strings
WAIT THOSE THINGS ARE STRINGS?! I ONLY THOUGHT THIS GUITAR HAD TWO STRINGS. MAN THIANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS EYE OPENING COMMENT
I bet Ive never touched the frets
What’s a meshuggah
I bet you use only plugins and never use a real amp
@@vamp2709 Wow, the hate is unnecessary. This guy had the fucking balls to put a video up while you're here being a Keyboard Warrior. You're bringing shame to real Metal and Suicidal fans.
Go home troll...
Thank you! This was a lifesaver for me!!!:D I came across this tip a few times in the past, but never actually gave attention to it until now. Thank you!
Nice story :) I am not into this kind of metal yet, but I recently changed my picking technique in a way a bit similar to yours, and I was impressed at how I am now more in control, with less fatigue!
I learned to hold the pick from a video as well. It was a lesson by dave mustaine and he was holding the pick so just the bare minimum of the tip was visible.
I thought "ok, that seems to be a great way to have more control and to play cleaner and faster. I should try this."
So I did years ago.
Still do.
Holding it exactly the same way as you do. Palm mutes are also so much more comfortable like that. Can't even remember how to palm mute any other way that doesn't looks like it would hurt after 10 minutes.
Look at the picking technique videos of those metal legends. It's really interesting and can make a huge step up on the playing. There are tons of interesting stuff in that term, including an analysis of the picking technique of Michael Angelo Batio, that makes shredding faster and more economical.
Hey, brother... great video! I'm definitely gonna start working on this technique. I've noticed that Jason Richardson seems to play with a similar picking technique, as well, and he talked about it when he was on with the Captain (Anderton's Music CO) last week. Thank you for your service, my friend!
Thanks so much Dave!
I love the people with out content leaving hate. Much love dude
My problem after learning Bleed is that I accidentally add triplets to more or less everything.
Those are hertas, not triplets
@@notoriusdrifter40 no herta on guitar
@@Dylan_matkowsky how? Hertas are 2 16th notes with an 8th note behind, and those are hertas. Triplets are fitting two more notes in a bar. If you have quarter notes, you have 4 notes in a bar, triplets are 6 quarter notes in a bar. Learn your shit
Only if this worked on drums
:'(
learn the bass drum pattern on your hands before even attempting the feet. all of it is part of the 16th note grid. feel the pulse man, it's groovy af. once attempting it with the feet, lean back. don't put a ton of pressure on the pedals. Tomas Haake (Meshuggah's drummer) himself said he had to practice JUST the bass drum pattern for 6 months before it fell into place with the rest of the band. I've been going at it for a couple months myself, and it really is an extremely challenging song to keep that groove going. Meshuggah really are masters of groove, especially Haake.
@@itssk1092 Yep. There are only 8 eight-bar patterns in the song - it's not that hard. Basically it's one big musical etude.
I know exactly what your talking about man. I had the same scenario happen when I spent days trying to perfect The Escapist notion by the haarp machine, (the very first playthrough) I eventually got it down, but it changed my playing style, forever!!
Hey what's up James? Thats crazy you had a smilier thing happen. it's pretty cool how certain songs makes us better players
Dude!!! Way helpful!! Ive been struggling with the same problem. This makes total sense! Thanks bro!
Wheres a good site for the tabs as well?
Hey mike thanks so much for checking out the video. My website musictheoryformetal.com helps explain in more detail, and offers lessons with different examples and tunings. Thanks again!
I tried playing it in guitar center, I didn't even play it correctly, and I was still aching From that chugging.
It changed your playing by needing wrist surgery since your muscles are broken.
it changed my playing because my arm literally fell off
lolololololololol
Honestly, learning different songs/riffs from different bands can be immensely helpful for technique. Then you see when your technique falls apart or stays solid and you realize you may need to try out smth different.
As an intermidiate guitar player I've been playing with a closed palm for around a year now and I love it, its way more comfortable to play but to this day I find my pinky finger's tendens getting really tired from streching when I play a lot of hours in a week.
I play a 7 string esp ... Thats how I have played for years ... I use this similar method ... So more versital when making those ... My riiffing got way more intense and was able to come up with alot more material ... Glad I found this channel ... Thanks man keep on jamming
After my index finger hurt from gripping the pick to hard, and I had to pause playing for weeks, I also changed the way I hold my pick a few years ago. Before I held the pick with a more open hand and also ankered with the pinky on the guitar body below the highest string. I now support the index finger with the other fingers like you've illustrated. This a really valuable advice and I try to suggest it to other players when I can. Thank you for the video!
Great advice!!! Very true. I stumbled on this technique myself while riffing, and it really works.
Man this just helped me out so much!! Thank you!
I learned to pick similarly by watching Dino from Fear Factory.
Same here. The verse riff in "What Will Become?" is another one which really took me a while to get tight on.
Great video! I think relaxing your picking hand is one of the biggest technical hurdles to overcome as a guitarist. There's a lot that isn't really intuitive about picking. People quite often begin guitar, get a teacher who tells them to simply do what "feels natural", and that will inform their approach to developing technique for many years, perhaps even their whole life.
While this IS good advice, it also promotes a wishy-washy approach to some aspects of technique development. I've always tucked my other picking-hand fingers, but my picking hand developed a habit of really favoring my thumb and index to move the pick also. In some cases, this is beneficial: I can string-skip cleanly, and alternate pick arpeggios at moderate to fast speeds because jumping over the string feels "natural" to me. But, like many other people, I realized this was a very bad habit when trying to tremolo pick as your fingers flapping around quickly trick you into thinking that your picking hand is working harder than it is, and a lot of wrist-muscles are being under-utilized. So in spite of feeling "natural", it developed a motion that was ergonomically impossible to tremolo pick quickly with. Don't let feeling natural prevent you from trying to solve problems with your playing!
Makes a lot of sense to me. Put more fingers and force behind the pick to match the strength and stability of your thumb. I'm going to intergrate this for sure. Thanks
I feel like a song like that changes your playing no matter what. I already had the pick grip down, though I typically extend my bottom three fingers out in case I need to hybrid pick (not for this song obviously), but it really drew attention to how much I have a tendency to tighten my wrist when playing faster stuff. Might work for shorter bursts of speed, but when you keep that up for 7 minutes, it’s just not possible
3:11 , I stopped to write this. My shoulder is ruined and my neck is fractured. This makes it really hard to play, as you Ray are well aware of with your giant list of injuries. I Salute you btw. I'm hoping this will help get me to 180 bpm for a #SWOLA
This is the first thing my guitare teacher learn me, it was a game changer for me too, no more tension, relax playing. And to do an analogy, there is a lot of probability that Kirk hammett sometimes wrap his right hand fingers to add more weigh to his strokes like the close fist :)
Wow, thanks for the tip on Picking it works for real!!!!!!!!!!!You are the Man Ray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started using the same technique after Rob Chapman showed how he picks. Changed my life as well. It should be said that you don't necessarily have to make a fist. It's the curled index finger and straight thumb that's the important bit. Noice video, hopefully everyone takes your advice.
Wow! Seriously it changes a lot! Thanks ;-)
Late to the party but I learned to play using the same technique that you modified to. Except I read in a Guitar World on Metallica. The only difference is that I turn the pick so the tip of the pick points inward towards the palm of my hand. I find that it’s easier to play faster than when I have the tip exposed. Maybe try it out and see if that improves your speed as well. Great video
Since watching this vid like 2 years ago, I’ve been holding my pick like this. I started playing 3 years back and this helped me add consistency and speed to my playing.
You can also hold the plectrum with three fingers, sort of like you hold a pen, with the other two fingers as support. It takes a bit of the strain off the index finger. It’s sort of in between and increases precision a bit compared to making a full fist.
I just got into playing a 7 less than a month ago after always telling myself I wasn’t gonna go there..
And I’m already considering ordering an 8 lol
Late to the game on this video. Thank you so much. I come from the George Lynch school of the OK symbol picking style. I have an 8-string Meshuggah Ibanez on order. The "fist" pick hold is going into my arsenal and going to be practiced religiously. Thanks so much Ray!
Very observant you are fellow axe brother! I noticed Al DiMeola's right hand employs a similar technique on his Ovation acoustic days, the attack and speed! The "fist" technique is about balance either by wrist or elbow as fulcrum. You made me try it for these classic Meshuggah riffs. Thanks dude.
I had the same problem and ultimately found the same solution
As a fellow guitarist always trying to learn new techniques to utilize in my own writing. Thank you for explaining this the way that you did.
It's true my picking also changed lol.i have to walk my picking fingers back in forth to get the timing right .
Cool video! This is something I’ve been struggling with. Thanks for the advice!
It helped me in a lot of ways tucking my fingers in...
I'm going to take a moment and thank the one an only guy that gave me guitar lessons for my 1st month of my playing. After the first month I understood enough to quit the lessons thanks to him. Although I shouldn't have in hindsight. I could have gotten so much better if I hadn't gotten bored of the lessons. He told me to hold the pick like that from the beginning.
cool story on improving your technique bro!
I went thru a very similar progression with the ok pick grip vs the fist style grip.
Was doing the a ok grip for like 10 years...
One day i was really thinking about what was holding back my playing the most, and realized a lot of it was technique issues.
Part of my issues were too much strain in my picking hand, too much force put down on the neck with my fretting hand, and improper pick holding and pick strumming angles.
Troy Grady ended up explaining what I had discovered about my playing not long after with cracking the code!
Really doesn’t fatigues the wrist.. great point noted bruh and thanks!!
Happy to help!
Im 16 and i want to learn this till summer and this is smth i needed to hear
the same thing happened to me , and i find it by myself xD i was remembering the down picking of hetfield , and now i saw your video i am happy i am on the righ path 🙂 thank you
I've been using this picking technique for a really long time. I can't remember who I first heard it from, perhaps Mick Thompson or John Petrucci, but it was a serious game changer for me. The hardest part about bleed for me, other than the fact I don't own an 8 string, is the picking pattern. A triplet of down, up, down, followed by an upstroke. For years I tried to use down, up, down, down, like a traditional gallop, but it's too fatiguing. I only recently learned about how that song uses economy picking. Anyway, great video man, love the Strandberg! Looking at getting one myself.
Love this THANKS MAN
I was having really tense forearm and wrist fatigue. so I was playing around with different positions, and this was actually my end result. good to know I'm not the only one that's doing it!
Better picking technique I think so too. Not for just Bleed but anything. Paul Gilbert is one of best alternate pickers, and holds pick like that. He talks about it in some video, showing in detail the exact same grip. I got lucky I guess, chose randomly to play with this grip from the start, and it stuck ever since. Although I think "pinch" grip can be used in relaxed manner too, excessive amount of force comes usually from trying to play faster than you can. Fast playing should always be somewhat relaxed, trying to up the speed too early leads into all kinds of tensions in the arm, trying to help with elbow etc... should all come from the relaxed wrist. But this grip has more support for the pick, it's just better grip overall
I've always held my pick that way only because it was more comfortable for me and allowed for more relaxed playing.
This video helped me a lot!
Thanks for the inspiration I got an 8 string to learn godless times by rings am gonna get some day
Rotating your forearm is much easier and not as tensed up as moving your entire hand up and down with your wrist ;)
You can get even better if you meditate on your body tension, even small muscle parties play big roles. Back muscles, shoulder, triceps / biceps, shoulder blades, stomach muscles... loosen up your whole body and you'll get faster
Cool Man, I am going to try this know as I have the same problem with index finger pain.
It would good to list all players that have this style. There are a lot of big names that do use this style, especially in Metal.(Perhaps a follow up video idea?)
Ayo , i haven't tried this technique yet , planning to wait for my first ever 7 and 8 string to arrive that i just ordered couple days ago , ( 7 string Jackson and 8 string Ibanez 😊 so hyped to try both of these for the first time) i don't got a pick in my hand at the moment, but even then i feel like im noticing a difference in hand motion strength trying to move my hand to the rhythm, you may have just found the secret code that alot of people should be talking about lol. Gonna sub just for that extra tidbit. Bought these 2 guitars cause I've been wanting to get into the heavier stuff for experimenting lol bleed by Meshuggah is one of the daunting challenges I plan to put on myself. Fingers crossed in the next couple months that i can keep up with some of the song
I can totally relate to this!! I actually changed the way I pick because the same thing happened to me the first time I went to a recording studio, and the producer taught me the exact same technique! And although it helped me a lot to have more grip and attack in my playing, the ultimate goal is to relax as much as you can (which is a hard thing to teach your brain)...if I knew that before I didn't get a tendinitis near my shoulder which is a real pain in the ass!
To be honest, how you hold the pick to play Bleed doesn’t matter. It’s really just a matter of relaxing your hand and picking each note with just enough momentum to slice through the string. It also helps to use Chris Broderick’s pick clip if you drop your pick trying to play this (though it’s a little alien feeling at first). I pick nearly the same way as your open hand style, and Bleed is the song I practice on my own 8 string to.
Ive been catching myself playing im that new style u do with the fist for the path three months and havent went back either sometimes i try and pull myself out of it but it feels so much better
this is amazing, thank you
I think it is a bit shameful how so many people feel they have to top one another. "Bleed" is not rhythmically simple. Just deciphering and learning the individual parts is challenging enough, never mind having to build up the endurance to complete the entire song. I did notice the "fist"-style picking Fredrik did in that tutorial, and it is nice to see someone pointing it out and bringing it to light. This video will help someone else overcome a hurdle in their playing; shouldn't that be all that really matters in the end? Great video. I enjoyed it. Just my thoughts.
Hey I really appreciate the kind words. Honestly I never expected this video to gain so much traction as well as so much hate. I just told my story of how I changed my picking style and it made it easier to play. I never said I'm so good or I can play better than you (the viewer). I was just trying to help. It's crazy how people will take their hate out on anything. But I 'd much rather it be me than someone else.
You made absolutely no assumption on your skill level being above or below anyone in particular. Even with such a neutral (proper) stance as you put forth, some still just have to hack things to pieces. With a mentality like that, it makes it a little easier to discard their validity. What concerns me is that such a generally negative attitude makes for such a discouraging environment, which may very well discourage an aspiring guitarist from trying to learn any further--and that's just a shame! =)
Congrats, after all years of playing 1 song taught the correct way to hold a pick.
This video was very interesting for me in a way you probably wouldnt expect. As Fredrik is one of my favorite guitarist I watched a lot of his playing and once I picked up guitar myself I instantly just held the pick like he was. So I never really experienced the fatigue that you are talking about . But nonetheless, very interesting.
Luckily I learned proper picking technique before bleed came out, *still cant play it. Devin Townsend with his strapping young lad days, talking about string gauge and open c tuning. Showed his picks. Thick gauge triangle shaped ones that I haven't stopped using since. Feels nice and comfortable with this style of picking, the fist way.
When i did change my picking technique to a tucked fist i realised i suck at muting the higher strings with my fretting hand. Got to work on that now! Cheers
Funny you mention they way they hold the pick bc Martën Hagstrüm holds his pick the traditional ( " ok" ) way . Fredrik Thordëndal is the one that holds his pick the correct way. So really there's no right or wrong way to hold a pick. But it's just hard for people to transition to the "correct" way. I can alternate to both ways while playing, depending on certain parts. But at first it was hard to get use to. Now I do it without thinking about it. I guess it's all about preference and the angle of the pick. The correct way makes for cleaner and sharper attack on the strings.
Great points made, Ray; the pick position, its palm placement, and grip have got to be the most overlooked concepts of learning how to play the guitar (no matter how many strings, or genre). Your comments echo what Jason Richardson remarked during the winter NAMM 2018 during his interview - most people hold the pick wrong and expose themselves to huge fatigue-related & performance problems. If you haven’t done it already, check out the Cracking the Code series by Troy Grady - insanely good stuff - Troy has devoted his career to cracking the ultimate question, the understanding of how to hold & play with the darn thing :) Cheers!
Im gonna learn it now thanks a lot for the motivation through this video ( testimony )
It's a good technique, mastery comes when you can switch between the different pick holding styles to accomplish the best sound for the riff.
Yes! I have also noticed that in my hands in very high-speed alternate picking. Thanks for the tip.
Yeah, I always got worn out learning Metallica MOP songs (and a bit of Bleed, as well) and figured it just wasn't for me, either. I had been messing around with different picks, working on different angles to hold them for leads, etc. and came upon something close to the closed-fist approach you're using, with the other fingers curled up though behind the first finger still holding the pick the same as I always had, and it definitely has helped with thrash picking and even some lead work, though I think alternating to the traditional picking way helps me with some patterns. I'll definitely have to give your specific approach a try. It can be very enlightening to have been playing for decades and suddenly come upon something that changes a basic approach to playing that can still make a very positive difference. I'm glad you found that and it's working so well for you. 8)
I use a similar picking technique but for faster bits I tend to use my pinky as an anchor right under the high e
I literally today wrote the comment praising Bleed for helping many musicians to fix their technique. lol) Including Tomas Haake himself as it turned out from his interview.
So many comments about complexity of the song when the song is musically i'd say slightly below average but requires good technique and endurance to keep with the tempo.
I am going to get an 8 string once I get this rhythm part down. Boy it’s tough. I have played with a style that has changed over years but that has failed me when it came to Bleed.
This was very helpful thank you so much!
Been holding my pick like this since I was fifteen I'm forty four now and have switched to larger/ thicker picks to help with fatigue.
ok, im an avid metal head and a drummer, but also of greek background, our cultural instrument a "bouzouki" is 8 strings, grouped in 4 pairs, ive been toying with it for a couple years, my first string instrument, have a friend teaching me and this new "revolutionary" pick grip of yours is the standard one we learn, funny
nice advice man. thanks!
Nice tip, thanks for sharing!
Thanks for checking it out Lewis!
I can keep it going with a traditional picking style and the meshuggah style. It does strain my hand a little bit towards the end.
thx so much I'll try it straight away when coming back home! been a while im trying to play this insane song...
Hey man good luck! It just takes patience
thx Ray! indeed patience is needed when learning Meshugga's songs, I think it took me about 2 weeks (more or less one hour per day) to be able to play the first and amazing riff from "in death is life" without a glitch! (though that one is more about learning the pattern than anything technique) I will work on bleed using the right wrist technique and slowly with a metronome.