You're not alone in saying Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen. I suspect she's also Marika's daughter and was even a part of the night of knives. Also, since she is, "bodiless," could she have been part of a similar ritual to the one that Ranni used to separate her spirit from her body? What if the Godslayer Greatsword is body of the gloam-eyed queen and Melina is the soul?
That's a very solid theory 👌 I never thought about the gods layer greatsword In that way but it actually makes total sense. The sword still exist after the gloam eyed queens defeat because it was created as a result of the ritual most likely done by Marika after maliketh defeats her maybe ?
It’s interesting to say but I feel when we try to get the great sword there’s no interaction or something melina would pop up to say something to you. I wish it would happen with her showing up after you get the weapon.
Melina also says she lost her purpose a long time ago, if she was destined death and her purpose was to bring death but that power was sealed it would make sense. I think all the clues are clearly pointing at her being the gloam eyed queen.
The purpose she's talking about in that dialogue is the purpose given to her by her mother in the Erdtree - and the purpose she rediscovers when you bring her back to Leyndell.
She also said she is burnt and bodiless. We know Maliketh’s blade burns as it kills. I think he killed (burned) her body, but Marika recovered her spirit and used her as a means to continue her mission.
@@joshuawinstead7621 She says she's choosing to be burnt for herself, because she has her own vision of the world she wants to emerge from that act. But the dialogue also strongly indicates that her mother's purpose for her was to burn the Erdtree - what's changing is not the act but the intended outcome.
So I have a theory about Torrent, though I'm surely not the first person to think of this. I think he was Marika's horse. And my reasoning behind this is as follows: 1. He's carrying Melina who's certainly connected to Marika in one way or another. 2. Torrent guides her to you, not the other way around, and he signifies to her that he finds you worthy by sniffing your hand meaning he's aware of the scent of one who is capable of becoming Elden Lord and really the only way he could know that is if he was in the presence of a former Elden Lord or Marika herself. 3 Ranni says she knew Torrent's former master and that person used the three wolf summons and we find Marika's shadow bound beast Maliketh in front of that statue with the three wolves almost as if it means something to him and that would only make sense if that statue was of Marika, maybe commemorating her use of the wolves to gain power? I know a lot of that is speculation, and this video isn't really about Torrent, but you mentioned him and idk it made me want to throw this theory out there.
The lone wolf ashes are more interesting than they seem. the wolves had once accepted a tarnished in their pack, the "lone wolf" of the ashes. the only tarnished who had any interest in becoming a wolf, who are said to be shadows of the Empyreans, is the Raging Wolf. he wanted to become the shadow of an Empyrean. the question is which Empyrean, answered by the fact that his weapon of choice is the God-slaying blade. If we go with that logic, if the old owner of torrent is Marika, and she used to own those ashes, that were associated to a man who wanted to become the shadow of the Gloam Eyed Queen. I can see Marika being the Queen.
@@Sinha010 There’s a couple things that back this up: 1. The spectral steed whistle is made of a delicate “goldwork”, not just gold, mirroring the Item Description on the Unalloyed Needle. I didn’t think much of it at first but after seeing the flame of frenzy ending, I’ve speculated that the material is Unalloyed Gold. This is backed by the fact that the whistle is still intact after the flame of frenzy is unleashed. We know that Miquella’s needle is made from the same material and has the properties to ward away the effects of the flame of frenzy and rot, which both originate from outer gods. 2. There is evidence that Miquella discovered something in the game known as the primeval current. Torrent is another name for “current.
That’s a interesting theory. Plus there’s connection of maiden riding horse that is in Celtic mythology and I feel it’s connected to marika/melina and torrent
The Frenzied Flame ending makes it so plain that Melina is the GEQ that it seems weird to entertain the idea that it is anyone else. The specifics of what that means are certainly up for speculation but I really don't think they were trying to be subtle with it.
I mean, instead of being Marika or her daughter, the queen COULD have been Marika's sister, one who possibly may have once been alongside Marika and been a candidate to hold or share the Elden Ring with Marika, before either she betrayed or was betrayed her self by Marika. Plus that does make the connection to the Nox still fit.
@@Thebrothersfolife I don't think it's days Morgott and Mohg are twins? But that made me think.. What if the GEQ is Marika's sister and, more scandalously, is an Omen like Morgott/Mohg? Makes it possible it runs in Merika's family? That would make sense why so little is said about the GEQ... After the Golden Order is formed, Omen became anathema. Would look bad if Merika's own sister was one.
@@Mortiel they’re 100% twins. It says it on one of their runes, they share the same tower to activate their runes (fun fact: if you defeat them both before restoring their runes they show up side by side) The only difference is that Morgott, though he was shunned by grace chose to try and appease the greater will, he exercised his horns and cast away his accursed blood. This blood is in his sword. Mohg on the other hand fully leaned into his accursed blood and met the Formless mother. Their relationship is paralleled by the twin omen boss fight on the way to their tower. And that’s a possibility, Marika’s sister being an omen. There’s not enough info about some of these characters and it’s kinda frustrating. Hoping for DLC someday.
@@Thebrothersfolife Good call out! I either didn't notice or forgot it says they are twins on Mohg's great rune. And yes, definitely not enough info. Just an amusing speculation.
Great vid. It’s fairly obvious that Marika is Melina who is the Gloam Eyed Queen and is also Ranni who is Rennala and Torrent and the turtle pope (he knows too much). She is also likely Gurranq, who is not Maliketh since you beat Maliketh and Gurranq says nothing of it. Both the spirit upgrade lady and Fia have the same shield as Ranni when you try to hit them, meaning they must also be one and the same. Mohg being in two places suggests that one is also an illusion, and only Ranni does that, so Ranni is also Mohg. Millicent is obviously Malenia without memories, so obviously the Malenia we fight is also Ranni/Melina/Marika. Rya having no clear mother is also clearly a reference to her being Melina, and Tanith being her mother and loving Rykard is a reference to Tanith being Marika as well. The game vaguely implies that Marika is Radagon as well, though that’s not as obvious and much more controversial. If you assume that, you must also assume that Radagon is Patches since both are in love with Tanith/Marika, and same for Hoarah Loux - we never see them together in the same place after all. Some would even claim Hoarah Loux is Godfrey but that’s going way too far, we never see Godfrey undressing into Hoarah Loux and their personalities don’t match.
I don't think you need to worry about 'going crazy' as long as you're still critiquing/questioning your own theories and asking for feedback, or otherwise open to alternate possibilities! It's only when someone starts warping their thinking around preserving a preconception - resisting or rejecting evidence that doesn't fit, or turning on anyone who disagrees - that something like ideas about the game can become something like a problem.
So many people quote the Godslayer Greatsword as being the source from which Godskin's channel the Black Flame, but I read it as Godskin's Black Flame can *also* be channeled from the sword, as in it's (presumably) a rare case where an object can channel the Black Flame by itself. Regarding Melina, I honestly think she was a Numen sword maiden from (and possibly former leader of) the same order that birthed the Black Knife Assassins. After all, the Black Knives they use only became that after the piece of Destined Death was stolen... Would it not make sense they wielded Blades of Calling before that? I do think Melina held a special station as the Kindling Maiden, which I think was actually a sort of spymaster/secret police captain, with one task being overseeing the post-war operations in the Forbidden Lands (kindling maiden being a code name that nods to the Fell Flame). This is based on her having seemingly the only Rold Lift Medallion to access the Forbidden Lands and the room where her Blade of Calling is found resembles the office of someone in authority but is hidden at the access point to the Forbidden Lands (allowing spies to report in without being seen entering the capital). Additionally, the corpse outside that office (a subordinate of hers) has clothing of what honestly sounds to me like a sort of assassin/spy/secret police.
> So many people quote the Godslayer Greatsword as being the source from which Godskin's channel the Black Flame, but I read it as Godskin's Black Flame can also be channeled from the sword, as in it's (presumably) a rare case where an object can channel the Black Flame by itself. Sure. I also think that's a strong possibility, but since its description is ambiguous, I think it's important to entertain the possibilities.
@@LastProtagonist That's true, I can definitely agree it's written vaguely and why people see it differently. It simply never really made much sense to me... Why would that sword be required (and only that sword) for a Godskin to channel Black Flame, no matter the distance/divides between the two? But let's be honest, that wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the lore... Radahn literally is blocking the orbit of galaxies worth of stars. Why couldn't a sword be an arcane conduit to the Rune of Death?
There's an interesting connection between the God Devouring Serpent, The Formless Mother, and The Gloam-Eyed Queen. Of note is that the godskin apostles wear extra layers of skin, similar to a snake shedding its skin, while also having snake like tails. The apostles are also able to stretch out their torsos and attack similar to the Man-Serpents. The Formless Mother connection comes from the Serpent Bow and Serpent arrow which make mention of a group of assassins known as the 'Formless Serpents' with not much else about them. It seems there's a connection between all three Outer Gods in some capacity, with the inhuman physiology being similar to the Crucible suggests that the Godskin also hold some connection the Crucible itself.
All were worshipped in the time of the Ancient Dragons when the Divine Towers were built. The Divine Towers are obviously connected to black flame as it seems to streak down through the air within them. The art on the walls within also seem to depict The Crucible, with a young Elden Beast in its branches. Pressure pads within are decorated with the sun, seemingly associating the sun with The Crucible and Divine Towers. The Ancient Dragons are said to have befriended Godwyn, who is strongly associated with Castle Sol and thus was likely associated with worship of the sun as well seeing as Sol literally means sun. Such dragons also use "primeval lightning", which is red-tinged gold just like the armor of the Crucible Knights and all associated with The Crucible in general. The Ancient Dragons also invented "communion", which is a form of blood sacrifice. An Ancient Dragon corpse can be found at every site of dragon communion, and one such site even exists in the land of Ancient Dragons, Farum Azula. Communion is the term used to refer to both dragon communion and Mohg's worship, and the seal which boosts dragon communion magic is also described as being a "Formless Drakeblood Seal". Thus, we can conclude that dragon communion is most likely an ancient form of Formless Mother worship invented by the Ancient Dragons (who also worshipped The Crucible). The Formless Mother seems to change its followers just as dragon communion and The Crucible does. Misbegotten / Crucible Knights have wings and horns just as The Formless Mother grants Mohg wings and his blood-soaked Albinauric followers horns. Unlike his brother, Mohg has very dark skin, perhaps like the skin of the Magma Wyrms seems to darken as they transform from communion. His wings are bird rather than dragon-like, but birds are strongly associated with dragons and there are many birds as well as statues of a bird diety in Farum Azula. Interestingly, Mohg and The Formless Mother have chosen the ruins of an Uhl palace to make home. Their followers worship the statues of the Uhl god just as they do Mohg, and that lost society also seemed to have worshipped the sun, as well as the rot and poison gods. Depictions of the sun can be found among the religious tablets of that lost society, and their strucures such as the Grand Cloister being populated by rot-kin suggest they also worshipped the scorpion Rot God. Rot is deeply tied to poison, and the Mushroom Crown item description states that both rot and poison were worshipped in a past society. Just as the defeated Great Scorpion served as the vessel of the Rot God, so does the God-Devouring Serpent for the God of Poison. It is likely that the Godskins are the product of The Gloam Eyed Queen (associated with birth) reproducing with the God-Devouring Serpent, just as in the foul rituals which produced the man-serpents. Being born of an empyrean mother, the Godskins are obviously stronger than any other of the Great Serpent's kin. The Serpent Arrow does not read that it resembles a snake, but rather a flying snake. As such, it is likely that the Formless Serpents were children of the God-Devouring Serpent who gained wings from communing with the Formless Mother, just as Mohg did. Them being direct children of the Formless Mother is impossible seeing as she is formless. Mohg requiring a consort of his own also clearly implies that the Formless Mother is not an entity who can fulfill such a role herself. The Coil Shield, which can be found in Mt. Gelmir, is a bronze sculpture of a poisonous snake which was used in gladitorial combat. Maliketh's arena (and Ancient Dragon architecture generally) is clearly of Greco-Roman inspiration and greatly resemlbes the colosseum. In my opinion, the picture being painted is clear. Just as the different factions of The Lands Between competed (even in times of peace) such as in the fight between Malenia and Godrick, there once was a society of cooperating cultures who competed in combat at the arenas spread throughout the map. Led by the Ancient Dragons (explaining the predominance of their architecture), each culture had their own god or gods who competed with one another, yet all were united in adopting Ancient Dragon worship of The Crucible and in their practice of blood sacrifice (Formless Mother worship).The Serpent Bow even specifically states that it is imbued with "pagan" magic, and, of course, paganism is a polytheistic religion of the Greco-Romans... Thus, we can infer that the fall of said many-god worshiping Ancient Dragon society is a commentary on the real world historical cultural shift towards monotheism and away from blood sacrifice. Godwyn likely learned of their Crucible worship and secret red lightning techniques (which is a metaphor for him being indoctrinated into Greco-Roman religion) and thus was killed. The worship of many gods being perhaps one of the most reviled of sins in monotheism.
@@davidgomez5032 This is a fantastic analysis. The ancient dragon cult of the capital could be seen to mimic monotheistic religions like christianity adopting pagan rituals and divorcing them of their context and cultural heritage in order to ease people into a new religion. > The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold. It seems like the Greater Will's meddling with forces of nature and trying to bully other outer gods out of the lands between is directly responsible for things becoming as dire as they are when we are revived by grace.
Another piece of evidence for there being an analogous relationship between Melina and Millicent is that they wear the same clothes-- the Traveller's set, I think, that can be found in the Haligtree, though Melina wears it with a cloak. That could be a coincidence, or just a convenient reuse of assets, but it feels very deliberate. I think it's intended to hint at parallels between their identities.
That reminds me. For the unused quick descriptions, the Traveler set in Elphael says "Arm wraps worn by Malenia," and the Japanese version says "メリナが身に着けていた腕帯" [Arm wraps worn by Melina]. Idk if there was a name swap, but I thought this was funny. Maybe there's something more to it after all
There's cut content from a very early version of the Malenia fight that hints in very early versions of the story Melina was originally Malenia in disguise (hence the costume and the Margit/Morgott-style Melina/Malenia name shenanigans). It seems they fully backed off of this idea, though.
I like the idea that Melina is the gloam eyed queen and her body, when defeated, was turned into the sword, a la Radagon. It all sort of fits together nicely. She says She’s burned and bodiless. Her body becoming a flaming sword makes sense. But no matter what, her being the daughter of Merika and an empyrean all makes the most sense.
It is interesting yes. She is also lost fragment to gloam eye queen. Maybe if there was a moment they added after you require the sword she would pop up in the interaction or cutscene
There's another possibility for Melina, admitedly a bit of a stretch, but I have a suspicion that Melina might actually either be the Erdtree, or a seed of the Erdtree of sorts, and that the Erdtree is her real mother. Since the Erdtree absorbs the souls of those who die, it wouldn't be too far off that Melina might have been created by the Erdtree using some of Marika's essence, post-shattering, but that's not even necessary. It would explain why she can play the role of a finger maiden without being one. Why she can transport you to the roundtable hold (if it's linked to the Erdtree). Why she can summon a manifestation of the Erdtree, and why she does it when she dies. Considering the Erdtree herself too had been stripped from her fate and frozen in time by the sealing of Destined Death, why she would think seeking Destined Death and restoring it was important. Also why she says she's now working out of her own will -- burning the Erdtree is not something her mother could wish for, but Melina can understand it's really the only way out for her. Also why she's so opposed to the Frenzied Flame, one thing is the Erdtree burning to let future offspring be born from its ashes -- its spirit would live on -- another is to melt it down so thoroughly that nothing can ever grow from its ashes again. If you burn the Erdtree with the Frenzied Flame, Melina dies in spirit, becoming one who lives in death, and her purple eye may signify she has made contact with Destined Death with the purpose to seek you and end you.
I think the comparison of godskin to Albinauric is just a matter of two flayed corpses. The godskins (the garment) is done almost out of respect for gods and acknowledgment of their position as "gods". An Albinauric's head being stripped from the rest of its body and turned into a mask is done in mockery. I don't think it's meant to go any further than that: two different instances of flaying.
I mean they talk about "the nobles who hunted the gods" It seems like the ultimate in subversion of their authority. Making someone into a literal object is like the ultimate expression of power over them, I feel they wear the skins like pelts, like a trophy of sorts. It feel contemptuous, like "look at me, so much more powerful than the gods I have rendered them down to a handsome tracksuit."
Yeah I don't think the Godskins are meant to be interpreted as respectful of the Gods. I mean they hunt them and wear their skin, I don't see that as very respectful lol
i think its possible that Marika herself is Melina in some way, and Radagon is actually some kind of highly advanced Mimic Tear-like creature. See "You have yet to become me", and the concept of "unalloyed gold", implying that Radagon is "alloyed gold", or gold with silver. Radagon is some kind of alchemical work undertaken by Marika to form a scapegoat for the Elden Beast, I think. The original sort of path that Ranni took, separating her soul and body. This sort of tracks with the Empyrean children if they're actually the children of Marika and Marika's mimic tear, as they all seem to have disabled or nonfunctional legs like the Albinaurics. Malenia uses prosthetic legs, Miquella seems to be entirely immobile in his child form and makes people carry him around, and Ranni's original body found on the roof of the Divine Tower has degenerated or atrophied legs. (I think it's worth considering that Ranni is actually the payoff for all the "cuckoo" symbolism in Raya Lucaria and the Carian manor. The cuckoo places its eggs in other nests for other birds to raise. It's likely that Ranni was given to Rennala around the same time as the egg of rebirth.)
Crazy how I haven’t seen anyone mention this possibility about all of Rennala’s children not being able to move of their own accord. Shame we don’t see Rylard’s original body either.
@@AutekMor yeah, thats the odd thing. i think its specifically just marika and radagons children who cant move their legs. so it makes me think ranni isnt actually rennalas daughter
This will be mostly unrelated, but it pertains to Ranni's quote "I will not be controlled by that thing". Everyone says shes referring to her two fingers, I thought it was obvious that she's referring to the Elden Beast directly inhabiting her body. Watch the opening cutscene of the final fight where Marika drops off the Rune Arc, and Radagon stand up and raises the hammer. The left half of his body is that black, malleable, shadowy substance, and then within his core harbors the elden ring, obviously broken at this point. Now follow that with the cutscene where you kill Radagon and the beast appears. The black shadowy substance dissipates, and the arm appears to mold Radagon into the sword. Just pause the cutscenes when you see Radagon brandish the ring and when the beast's arm emerges i think its almost unarguable that the the beast was harbored within Radagon/Marika. I thought the Elden Beast existing as a parasite was the consensus? Now consider everything you mentioned and everything omitted about Marika's ties to the Nox and the Eternal Cities. How many ways have the Nox tried to kill and banish the Elden Beast/Greater Will? Theyre creating weapons, synthetic races, developing puppetry, and there's a infant theory derived from the Moon of Nokstella claiming that The Nox summoned Astel(s) and the Fallingstars and this is why Radhan was holding back the stars. These purpose of their existence went from whatever it had been - to annihilating the Greater Will and its vessels. Here's one alternative to this where the Elden Beast doesn't choose Marika as its host out of spite or a part of their ongoing struggle for power:.... Was Marika, the Nox Empyrean, if selected by the Elden Beast to be it's new host, always a Nox "sleeper agent" or ticking time bomb? At one point you mentioned Carians possibly being Nox which I totally think has so much support and almost solidified by the portal to Nokstella in Renna's rise, keeping in mind that the Carians and the acadamy are not interchangable. The Carians (Nox) being persecuted (?) after Radagon's tenure now makes alot of sense. If Ranni the Carian is in some capacity Nox, then of course shes going to kill Radagon, her life's purpose is to annihilate the Greater Will, of course she "will not be controlled by that thing", and she's not going to make the same mistake as the former Nox empyrean Marika and allow the Elden Beast to claim her as its host.
This is such a compelling, thought-provoking video! My take is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is the previous form of Melina. After the Godslayers were defeated by Malekith, GEQ was captured and taken to the Erdtree. There, she was herself skinned, and the Rune of Death was "extracted" from her flesh. What was left over was then recast as Melina, and Marika there gave her the ultimate mission of burning the Erdtree. That's why Melina calls Marika her mother, but also says she doesn't have a mother. It's why she says she is 'burned' (her skin was burned to produce or 'distill' Destined Death), and bodiless (her flesh is literally gone). It's also why she only becomes the Gloam-Eyed Queen again in the Frenzied Flame ending. The Erdtree has been burned, and her mission fulfilled. By design, she's supposed to be dead... But she's not, because you beat her to it. Thus, she is free to retake Destined Death! I have more thoughts on Marika, but I'll leave those for later. Suffice to say, I don't think she's human. Or Numen.
I like this idea of Nox as being related to Carians and it does fit. It also fits for a couple other things: the ghostflame torch you find may be a more basic version of what would eventually become the black flame. That same ghostflame is seen with the deathrite birds (so maybe a relation between the twin god and gloam eyed and the godskins?). And I think you're on about those giants because another seat like that is found in Sellia and supposedly Radahn is protecting Sellia (where he went to school to study magic...which would make sense for him to go to his aunt's or another part of a relative's former kingdom to study magic). Maybe the meteor that winds up striking Mistwood forest was actually originally intended to bury Sellia like it did Nokstella, Nokron, and the Forgotten Eternal City, but Radahn in his last living act redirected that meteor to Mistwood. He was holding up Ranni's fate but I don't think this was an act of sabotage so much as it was just prophecy and prophecy loves to work off of coincidence more than being directly related to the actors' motives. But yeah, nox as relative to the carian kingdom makes sense.
I thought about the ghostflame angle before, but one thing which leads me to believe it's distinct from black flame is that the Ghostflame Torch inflicts the ice/frozen status effect, and the Godslayer's Blade & Godskin incantations do not
@@LastProtagonist Very true. I have trouble divorcing the two given the interwoven nature of the godskins with the carian royal family and the nox with the carians and maybe ranni ultimately serving their "lord of the night"...though maybe that's what your title becomes when you do ranni's ending, instead? Also just remembered the greatsword says that the black flame originates from it so back to that sword as maybe a transmuted former god? Crucibles are fiery things so maybe whatever god-human served the crucible god? Dunno, there's plenty gods to choose from. The fire monks even picked two different ones given the switch from fell fire god to whoever wielded the black flame (also: does that mean the black flame marched on the mountaintop of giants?)
Melina is the key to all Elden Ring lore. She the Gloam Eye Queen and True leader of the Black Knives first the chaos ending her Gloam eye Queen power activates to stop lord of chaos also. She the leader of the black knives btw when she helps you against Morgott her style is like Black Knives moveset. Also she a Demigod and the rebel of Marika family. I’m guessing she was Marika and Radagon third daughter because her other half is Ranni.
Here is a lore write up I did about Queen Marika being... The Gloam/Dusk-Eyed Queen. It really makes us work for it though and in true From fashion, uses other names and titles to throw us off a direct, linear understanding right away. - Red and black spike of death impales Marika and keeps her in place when we find her at the end. Only Maliketh wields this power and only he could even defeat a God like Marika. But he's so loyal to her, why would he? - Maliketh "defeated" the Dusk-Eyed Queen, we know Shadowbound hounds have to attack their former master if The Greater Will feels like the Empyrean is acting against It. We play through this reality with Ranni's quest and both she and Iji know Blaidd will go mad. How do they know this happens? They saw/heard of it happening to Maliketh and Marika already. - Beast Eye is a purple, scratched up eye. It's Marika's eye from being defeated and imprisoned by her Shadowbound. No other Queen or Empyrean is "defeated" but not slain, as the text implies there except Marika. And who but her purpose-made hound could even stop her, a God? - No other characters are named as Queen or Empyrean that aren't already accounted for/ruled out to be the DEQ (Dusk-Eyed Queen) and by that I mean Melina, she was given purpose by her mother at the foot of the Erdtree and that means she is a daughter of Marika, not old enough to be the DEQ but possesses traits of both Marika and Radagon. Eye color, hair color are passed down traits we see in game, well sure enough Melina shows us a purple/gloamy eye in one ending. Inherited trait from her mother, the Queen. - Duskborn ending sees Godwyn rise to ascendancy and sees Death restored, with him as the Prince of Death itself. These titles aren't meaningless. Duskborn? The "Prince" of Death? Well who would the Queen be? If Godwyn is Duskborn, and if he is a Prince, his mother would of course be associated with "Dusk" and be a Queen. And we know his mother is Queen Marika. - Fia is hooded with a black cloak and comes from some other land, she also helps create Godwyn's Duskborn ending and is Death-aligned. We see Marika wearing black hooded garb in a statue where also is holding the twins Miquella and Malenia. Her tattered clothing as we find her at the end is also black. She is also associated with the Nox/Numen race and the Black Knife Assassins that come from there as well. - Statues of Marika in her crucified pose all show her with a flowing black cloth that wraps behind her in almost the exact same shape as the Godslayer Greatsword, which was the weapon or ritual sword of the GEQ/DEQ. You have to pivot the camera a bit to get a good view but the shape is very similar. Coiled and then open, with one flap slightly longer than the other, same tip design on the Godslayer Greatsword. - Hewg prays to Queen Marika about his given task to craft a Godslaying weapon. Very interesting and specific task. Marika wants a God Slain. Godskins certainly take an interest in that. Who was their leader? A "defeated" Queen who was once an Empyrean. Marika. - Marika learned the secrets of the Golden Order and realized her children would "amount only to sacrifices" as she instructs them. She knew the Erdtree was a soul parasite and by sealing Death away, she weakens the Erdtree over time. She also had Godwyn buried at the roots of it, knowing that he would grow and overtake them, choking the Erdtree further. As he was, Godwyn was an "unwanted" child since he embodied the Golden Order and she was a prisoner to it. He would end up far more useful to her as a soulless demigod who becomes the Prince of Death, not a "leal hound of the Golden Order" as she laments that Radagon would also be later. She was likely opposed to the Erdtree and Greater Will/Fingers for a long time, weaving plots in secret until the Shattering.
The biggest evidence refuting Queen Marika being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, in my opinion, is the fact that Maliketh defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and wrested control of destined death from her. So Maliketh defeated Marika, then Marika plucked destined death, extracted it from the Elden Ring and told Maliketh to seal destined death inside of himself? Maybe, but ehhh.
@@trisbane4086 i agree with what you're saying, but this could very well be "false story" told to us. But I'd like to add something more: If the GEQ is not Marika, HOW the GEQ had the hold of Destined Death if all the runes seem to be hold only by Marika until the Shattering? I mean, the runes are all part of the Elden Ring, and Destined Death is one of them. Unless GEQ was the Mother of Marika and a god before her, it makes no sense GEQ having Destined Death as her power, as demigods all only got a hold of Runes after the Shattering.
@@Piratadoidao How does the Gloam-Eyed Queen hold Destined Death if the Elden Ring is inside Marika? That's a good question. Coincidentally, the Gloam-Eyed Queen would not be the first one to wield Destined Death outside of the Elden Ring. There is an example of someone doing this that we're acquainted with, and it's Maliketh. Follow my timeline of events. 1) The GEQ has Destined Death. 2) Maliketh defeats GEQ and wins Destined Death for Marika. 3) Marika creates her Golden Order when she plucks Destined Death, removes it from the Elden Ring, reshaping it, so that no longer can anyone truly die. 4) Marika entrusts Destined Death to Maliketh to lock it away: "Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him." 5) Much later, Ranni devises a plot (possibly with Marika herself?) to steal a fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh 6) Maliketh seals Destined Death within himself so that this never happens again. 7) The Night of Black Knives; Godwyn dies. 8) Marika shatters the Elden Ring. Therefore, the only way for Ranni to steal a fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh is if Maliketh possessed Destined Death outside of the Elden RIng. We don't have much information about the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but I posit that she predated Marika, who was her rival. The world isn't big enough for two queens of their eminence, so Marika likely usurped the GEQ. It's possible the GEQ was even the vessel for the Elden Ring before Marika. Although that's conjecture. What isn't conjecture is that Marika - or more accurately Radagon - snuffs out her opposition, like she did with the Fell God and his flame of ruin which has the capability to burn down the Erdtree.
@@trisbane4086 But I mean, the problem is how GEQ had Destined Death on 1)? The only reasoning that makes sense FOR ME, is that the Elden Ring was once held by the God who was once the Five Fingers (the god who Placidussax was the Elden Lord) with all the Runes. Then something similar to the Shattering occurred and then GEQ and Marika were chosen as Empyreans. Then Marika had her Rune (which seems opposite to Death, so I speculate it's Rune of Life) and GEQ had her Rune as well (Rune of Death). They were "demigods" - that would explain why there's mention of other demigods without souls and how Vyke could be Elden Lord even though he has no hold of the Runes we know - there were other demigods who were killed in times before Marika defeating GEQ and becoming the new god. They fought against each other for their Runes and Marika won with the help of Maliketh. GEQ probably didn't have a shadowbound beast as we see the Raging Wolf knight being said he wanted to become a shadowbound beast of an Empyrean and he holds a sword similar to the GEQ sword. So Marika defeated GEQ before she would become a god and they were fighting for their Runes. So Marika is not GEQ in this case, but her sister or something.
@@trisbane4086 I always asked myself how do Iji and Ranni know about the true nature of Blaidd? They must’ve seen it happen and the only other recorded Empyrean with a shadow in history is Marika. Enia mentions “Marika’s trespass” meaning this was the damning move that would’ve activated Maliketh as a sleeper agent for the GW, then it would make sense. Another question I always asked myself is just how Maliketh is able to possess or lock away the Rune of Death? He’s only a shadow bound, not a demigod. The best answer I could come up with is that he sealed Marika inside him, who actually was a vessel. His black blade looks like it’s made from Marika’s torn half of her body, leading up to her eye that I speculate is the origin of the stone covered Beast Eye/Gloam Eye he gives us(Melina’s Gloam eye is revealed to be at the same side of her face). This would also explain the diminishing power of the Godskins since they would’ve received their power from her, the Queen of Death, Godwyn being the “Prince” of death. Her corpse is presumably dead since it’s found impaled with a spear bearing traits similar to the power of Maliketh’s Black Blade and her other half sealed into Maliketh, leaving “The Beast Eye” that writhes being the only piece of her that’s still “alive” and possibly a source of the Godskins power, the other being the Godslayer’s Greatsword since it’s clearly stated and the fragment Ranni stole which could also explain the piece missing from the Black Blade(It has the same brilliance of the black flame and the best explanation for the red hue I could come up with is the red glow from Blaidd’s eyes when he activates his kill switch at the end of Ranni’s questline because she murdered her Two Fingers and she’s in our pocket as a miniature doll when we confront him).
The Gloam Eyed Queen is Rick, Soldier of God after being reborned by Rennala; It may sound contradictory, after all, Rick fights for God and the godskin apostles hunt demigods, but those considered demigods and gods (Marika/Radagon) are actually under the influence of the Greater Will, which is not a god but an outer god, which implies that the god that Rick/Gloam-Eyed Queen serves is the native god of The Lands Between; The Greater Will took control of The Lands Between, so led by Gloam-Eyed Queen/Rick, the godskin apostles hunted the demigods, offspring of Marika, to regain control of The Lands Between, they would eventually kill Marika, but then The Shattering happened and Marika was imprisoned, which implies that The Shattering happened because Marika was afraid of the Gloam Eyed Queen/Rick, she knew she would be imprisioned, but better imprisioned than dead (it worked, because the opening of the game explicity says that nobody knew were Marika was)... Rennala would totally help Gloam-Eyed Queen dethrone Marika and the Greater Will because of the whole Radagon thing.
It seems to me that Elden Ring calls a lot of attention to the idea that gods don't need bodies in order to interact with the world, but they do need bodies to truly change things within it. In that sense, an Empyrean, as a God-Person, would be a god clad in flesh. Malenia has Miquella's Needle in her body, much in the same way that Millicent has the Unalloyed Gold Needle in hers. These needles don't get rid of the Scarlet Rot, but they suppress it, and the Rot itself is actually the manifestation of an Outer God. They possess an interaction with the supernatural. The description for the Spectral Steed Whistle states, "A delicate goldwork ring. Can be used as a finger whistle." If you notice its picture, the ring itself is not actually complete, almost as if it was once something straight that was bent into a loop. This special gold ring is given to us by Melina, who is a spirit lacking her burnt body. In the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, when this golden ring is burnt away, Melina changes. Perhaps the Gloam Eyed Queen is another Outer God who is suppressed by the whistle itself, and it is tied up in Melina's soul since that's what's left of her. Of course, the change in her appearance could also signify that she's somehow reclaimed her body. Since, when she's in spirit form her cloudy eye is golden, while her special eye is shut.
I sort of think Ranni discarding her flesh was her way of avoiding destiny somehow, like being a living being allows the Outer Gods to influence to her fate. But as for Melina, I think her connection to Marika does seem deeper than a typical daughter, so something like what happened with Malenia and her daughters has always seemed likely to me. But at the same time, the lack of a connection between Radagon and Melina calls that into doubt, because if Marika and Radagon are supposed to have something of a yin/yang relationship, one wonders what that would mean for Melina if she was a piece of Marika.
The red hair ?? That's said to be a trait associated with radagon specifically . I mean outside of the giants only radagons offspring have that red hair . I could be wrong but that would make your theory make alot of sense .
I always thought of Melina as of royalty in a manner similar to Malenia, in that she's a bearer of some powerful but broken instance of strength. She's absolutely fascinating, but I don't see her as Marika or part of her in a literal sense. To me, she has to be bearer of death itself similar to Maliketh's blade, otherwise, she wouldn't be able to burn the Erdtree, as none of our powers could, and we're able to summon blackflame at the time (I'm well aware of it being game mechanics and all, but From soft is very careful in those instances, I think, and it entertains my imagination). Also, her promise to the Tarnished is quite haunting, in that it feels like the firekeeper telling us she'll burn the world. Melina to me can be seen as the Queen, as well as being related to the Nox, since she's quite ethereal. I also thought that she could've been a sister to Marika or something like that, but we don't know much about the past of Marika or even if there was another vessel for the Elden Ring before her. To add to it, the sword could bear the essence of the character but not them entirely, since we take the sword the Elden Beast uses, and Marika's body is still there so that we can repair the runes. So far, I've been looking into this as some substantial evidence. But I could absolutely be wrong.
The whole Marika+Radagon+Melina stuff is probably the most interesting and mysterious aspect of the lore imo, and I'm so curious to see what people discover, or if we'll get dlc that clarifies anything.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's simply taking inspiration from the Christian Trinity. So Melina is essentially the Holy Ghost. Not saying I believe this to be 100% true necessarily, but I saw your comment and I thought it.
In Celtic/Gaelic myth. Wolves are symbolic beasts of the Underworld. So is a female riding a horse, supposedly to guide the fallen heroes on battlefields to the afterlife. Often attended by Ravens... The Morrigan, Phantom queen. Who's gaze falls upon those destined to die. Who presides over three in one: War, Fate and Death.
Exact same story in Greek myth. Interestingly, when Romans fought the Celtics, they genuinely feared Celtic magic and druids. This is because they knew all Indo-European religions had common origins and much overlap, so believed that the Celtic gods were one and the same with their own. They believed that the highest of the Celtic gods was simply a Gaelic interpretation of their god Mercury.
If the Goslayers GS was a person at one time, I could def get behind that idea, esp since the god skin swaddling cloth’s item description would still be able to work. Like you said, the Elden Beast did it to Radagon and knowing that’s possible I can’t imagine that happening the very first time when we fight Elden Beast. Awesome vid dude
I believe that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is most likely Melina (and if you’re right about who SHE might be… Wow). Don’t know if you considered taking a look at the Beast Eye we get from Gurranq, but as its description mentions, it trembles when near Deathroot, the description of which tells us that it is a manifestation of Rune of Death, lost and spread across the Lands Between after Godwyn was murdered. What’s more, both the description of the Eye and the image of the Eye itself both confirm that the iris is a “murky violet” that writhes as if it is still alive, a color not dissimilar to the color of Melina’s unsealed eye in the wake of the burning of the Erdtree. And about that seal on her eye… A mark resembling/mirroring it can be seen on the opposite side (left-facing when looking at it) of the Beast Eye relative to Melina’s sealed eye (right-facing when we look at her). And, both seals resemble claw marks (the description of the Eye says as much), which denotes a connection to Maliketh/Gurranq. If Maliketh took the power of Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, perhaps he took possession of it by sealing both of her eyes, taking one for his own use (this could also potentially just be a consequence of taking Death from her somehow; just speculating since I don’t really know what the eye seal did to Melina exactly). On the other hand, it could be that the Beast Eye is actually the physical eye of Marika that she’s missing when we find her in the Erdtree. The Beast Eye states that it is made of stone, which seems to be what Marika’s body is made from now, or something like it. (Could also be the eye belonging to the socket that she has shut when we find her as well, since Melina’s right eye is white after the Erdtree is burned, as if the color has been taken from it. The direction of the claw mark on the Eye in the image may also just be an oversight if it’s supposed to be the left eye, too.) All this to say, it’s looking to me all the more certainly that Melina (and now, Marika, probably) is the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
While I think the violet connection is very interesting, it should also be noted that Grave Violets...are violet, and are related to death and ghostflame. If there were a more tangible connection as to why Eleonora was called the "Violet" bloody finger, I'd be more comfortable making these kind of connections, but I will admit, though I do remember reading the beast eye and it saying it had a violet pupil, I did forget about that in the context of making this video. Maybe it should've been included. Thanks for the comment
@@LastProtagonist That’s a fair point. I just think it’s made more compelling by the fact the Beast Eye bears a claw mark that looks roughly similar to the seal on Melina’s violet eye. Of course I can’t say it’s necessarily the same kind of mark as the one Melina has, but it looks similar enough that I believe the connection is there. On a bit of a side note about the violet color, the Beast Eye’s description says that it’s a “murky violet” color. When Melina’s post-Chaos ending model is closely examined (which Zullie the Witch does in her “Elden Ring’s most bizarre and beautiful faces” video), the violet eye is shown to have a cloudy spiral pattern to it. While I know it may be a stretch, perhaps that’s what the Beast Eye’s item description means when it describes the Eye’s color as “murky”? It may be more implausible by the fact that the cloudy spiral look isn’t present in the image of the Beast Eye, as far as I can see. However, the cloudiness of Melina’s eye does make it quite distinct, regardless of it’s color. I believe that’s what the Beast Eye could mean when it describes the color as a “murky violet”, but I’ll admit that it’s a bit of a stretch to assume so just based off of the look of a character model.
@@LastProtagonist Been thinking about this topic some more, and while I did have other things I wanted to bring up and theorize about, I forgot that Melina has an interaction with the player character after inheriting the Frenzied Flame. She says that if we intend to become the Lord of Chaos, “…I will kill you, as sure as night follows day.” Dusk/gloam/twilight is the beginning of night… She never explicitly SAYS “Gloam” or “Dusk”, but that’s gotta be more than a coincidence that she promises to kill us like the night (which dusk is the beginning of) kills the daytime.
Excellent video. With respect to demigods being the direct offspring of queen Marika. We know explicitly that Godfrey himself is a demigod. Godrick’s great rune says: The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage. So there’s at least one demigod who was not an offspring of queen Marika. We also know Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni were adopted demigods so they were only Marika’s offspring in a legal sense, not the literal sense. Even if you take the Radagon=Marika thing to have always been true that clearly wasn’t general knowledge and everyone still refers to them as demigods.
As far as the the Gloam Eyed Queen she can be the Norse goddess Nott or Greek goddess Nyx. I think the location called The Three Sisters at Caria Manor is a reference to the Greek goddess Moira or the Norse deities the Norns. But I know Miyazaki loves to incorporate Shintoism or Norse Mythology in his games. As well as other religions/mythologies. So I'd go with Norse before the others. The Erdtree is literally Yggdrasil that exist in the Lands between the Nine Realms. I also considered Rennala possibly being Chang'e at first. But regardless I thought this post might help you or anyone looking for more clarity on the Gloam Eyed Queen and to shed light on the Norns(the THREE weavers of fate). Edit: Destined Death to me sounds like time/fate. That's why i thought of The Norns(one of them utilized a needle). Dont forget I mentioned The Three Sisters location. Guess what?...We have Miquellas needle that can cheat FATE. As well as the Unalloyed Gold Needle that can FORESTALL Rot. Forestall meaning prevent or obstruct (an anticipated event or action) by taking action ahead of TIME.
Rennala is Hera, which we know due to her association with the Cuckoo. This makes Radagon Zeus, Radhan Ares, Ranni Eris and Rykard obviously Hephaestus given the association with Volcanoes. We know Miquella is Dionysus due to his association with the grapevines, hairstyles and large penises depicted on the walls in Elphael. Thus, it is likely that Marika is Demeter, explaining why grain is so prominent near the capital. Demeter was also called "Deo" which means two, but also means fingers, thus explaining why her religion worships the Two Fingers. All seem to take inspiration from several sources, but I can't pinpoint who Mohg, Morgott and Malenia would be in the Greek pantheon.
Interesting video as always. Firstly with regard to the identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen I think it is Melina because in addition to everything you brought up we have the Beast-Eye that Gurranq gives to detect Deathroot looks a lot like the eye Melina opens during the Frenzied Flame ending (this is hard to see in the cutscene but if you look at Zullie's video on Melina's model you'll see it clearly). It has also been pointed out that the marking over that eye sort of looks like a beast claw. Marika having once been the Queen of the Nox I think is very likely not only because of what you mentioned but also because of the Bubble spells used by the Claymen which mentions the Oracle Envoys so I think that Marika became a God in Nokron where we find the Mohgwyn Mausoleum (Claymen Spear also mention them having been in service of "the ancient dynasty") makes Mohg's line "Welcome to the birthplace of our dynasty ring a bit different." (May be the Truth mention at the same time as the Formless Mother.) We also find one of Radagon's Red Wolves in Nokron, he uses Celestial Dew to cleanse himself which is from the Eternal City and he gives Rennala an Egg that needs Larval Tears from the Eternal City to use properly.
Melina would no longer be an Empyrean as she is *bodiless* remember that Ranni specifically killed her Empyrean flesh to escape the destiny of the Greater Will
I think gloam eyed queen is definitely Marika who is also queen of the nox, and probably the god slayer great sword was made from her. Melina I’m less certain on but it looks to me like she’s either Marika before she became the vessel of the Elden Ring, or she’s one of or a composite of all of the burned unwanted children in the mausoleums. She specifically says she’s burned, the blade of calling says the user was a “kindling maiden”. Maybe it’s the case that Marika was sending children to the forge of the giants to burn the Erdtree but they all just burned to death instead. Real good video.
have you guys ever watched the sunset ingame? its beautiful, I like to look out from church of santa and watch the reflection on the sea. This is during dusk, and the colors you see are redish gold transitioning to the darker colors of night.Btw i wonder why the sun looks so drained of power, anyway, the golden gloam you can still see is fading but its quite the sight. Melina is cool i like her rose gold colored hair, like her parents mustve had gold and red hair or something. and the way her eyes transition from a faded gold to that glowing night effect is awesome. Her powers are interesting, like almost one parent could controll black flames and the other holy gold, but jokes on them she got both. Could be unrelated, but why are the crucified people turning into vampire bats, all guilty of something with this eternal darkness spell. And why are they crucified in the shape of of a rune engraved in marikas eyes.
There is nothing crazy about Marika being the gloam eyed queen and it seems pretty obvious to me that Melina is an aspect or creation of Marika. Her references to her mother seemed obvious. As for Marika being the queen, her relationship with maliketh, destined death, and her tiring of the golden order makes more sense. Consider that Godfrey was a wild barbarian warlord but was recruited abd given a PR makeover by the golden order so he could serve the purpose of winning wars for them as elden lord. Marika could similarly have been recruited and given a new name and identity and image. She had to have been someone beforehand and it's in line with how the golden order worked to recruit existing powers in the lands between for their new order. Marika abd maliketh fought each other over destined death, but the golden order made them work together for a purpose. Marika had no qualms betraying any of them when she was tired of being a puppet. It may even be her alter ego radagon was a result of her housing the elden ring and a threat to her existence. Like jekyll being replaced by Hyde.
Melina seems to be the most likely candidate for the GEQ. She recovers her gloam eye after we free the rune of death, promises to deliver us destined death in the ending in which she lives.
Is it possible the Gloam-Eyed Queen predates the Golden Order as a whole? We're told that Marika fought to establish the Order, and there's a lot of bread crumbs pointing to other (Outer) Gods having been active in the Lands Between. Could be that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was in service to the same Outer God as was the Twin-Bird mother of the Death Birds (possibly a death concept outer god). There was also the scorpion-esque avatar of the God of Rot. It makes me wonder if Marika and the Gloam-Eyed Queen, being Empyreans, might not have also been twins. One of Marika's earliest feats establishing the Golden Order might thus have been knocking the Gloam-Eyed Queen out of the race to become the "one god". With Destined Death with Maliketh, and the Godskin Apostles left leaderless, defeating the Fell God and the Fire Giants and all other contenders would have become much easier. But it's all very difficult to tell, since what Elden Ring needs most of all is a clearly defined timeline.
Weird note that I noticed: In Farum Azula you can see what looks to be an older version of the Elden Ring symbol, but instead of Radagon's crosshatch backing, seems to have tree roots, or something natural and organic at the bottom. The same symbol can also be found on the Crucible Knights armor. I honestly think that before Marika, the Gloam Eyed Queen was in charge of the Lands Between. Death was still a law of the land, things grew, died, recycled, etc. I think she was overthrown by Marika, and Marika -- knowing that the natural process of things would eventually result in her own death, destroyed it completely. Whatever way, I think the Gloamed Eyed Queen was betrayed.
I think it is one of the most complete videos on the topic, and indeed I agree Marika was the gloam eyed queen, and Melina is a new born of Marika, as Millicent is for Malenia. It is the simplest and pretty interpretation.
The Blade of Calling weapons were probably the weapons that Destined Death fragments were bound to. That’s why they don’t do the dd flame or black flame, it’s not altered…
Melina's dialogue at the Minor Erdtree Church suggests that the Age of the Erdtree began shortly after the war with the giants. It's also easy to assume the Golden Order was formed and Destined Death was confined around this time as well. So I think it goes: Age of Crucible -> War with Giants -> Age of Erdtree. The War with the Giants, along with the War with Ancient Dragons, are the oldest historical events mentioned explicitly in the Age of the Erdtree. Since everything we know about the Gloam-Eyed Queen comes from very out of the way places and no npc even mentions her, we can say she was around during the Age of the Crucible, before the giants or the formation of the Golden Order. This would place her WELL before the emergence of Radagon and the war with Liurnia. There are many oddities with the timeline, but I don't think this is one of them. Also, the Nox are clearly an offshoot culture of the Numen. We know this because the bloated ants gorging on corpses down river from the Eternal Cities drop Numen Runes. So the valiant gargoyles are creations of the Numen originally.
Thanks for this, Protagonist. I always thought the Gloam-Eyed Queen fought against Marika - both being Nox and both being chosen by the Greater Will to start the new age. Then Marika won. So she was an Empyrean but not from Marika’s ilk. Sort of how Placidusax was Elden Lord first. But why he wasn’t an Empyrean?? Different outer god? Can one be Elden Lord but serve a different outer god?
Because, like, Placidusax was the "Godfrey" of whatever god was running things at the time... Or maybe the "Radagon", with the missing heads being his "Marika".
Since the Elden Beast is the Elden Ring and was sent by the Greater Will, I'd say no, the Elden Ring is tied very closely to the Greater Will. It makes sense thematically too, since the Greater Will's thing is precisely imposing itself over the individual wills of everyone and everything, so tying the laws of life and reality with a physical manifestation of these laws is very much a "Greater Will" sort of thing. Most likely Placidusax was simply a previous Elden Lord, those are not Empyreans, they're the consorts of Empyreans.
@@AlriikRidesAgain that's a good theory. Cause he dead ass awaits the player character in a space that exist outside of time , even outside of farum azula , which appears to be stuck in time itself. But the encounter with the player is him testing if you have to power to truly become a lord maybe?
That's a good question tho, cause it's insinuated with rannis ending that the greater will had no control over the lands between but we don't know if ranni herself is I Control or if that moon itself might be the outter God.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here. Empyreans aren't selected to be Elden Lords, they're selected to be Gods. Marika, the host of the Elden Beast/Greater Will, is a god; not the Elden Lord. Placidusax was an Elden Lord, and his remembrance states he was waiting the return of his god (the role Marika fills to her Elden Lords). Godfrey and Radagon are Elden Lords to their Empyrean-God Marika, just as Placid is the Elden Lord to his unnamed Empyrean-God. Miquella, Melenia, and Ranni are all empyrean candidates to replace Marika as God, not Elden Lord. In Ranni's ending she becomes the new god, with us as her Elden Lord.
I think the finger slayer blade is a result of the night of black knives, godwyn being the key in this, ranni was behind the assassination of godwyn, she needed him to die in this manner so the finger slayer blade could manifest itself out of death from the half wheel wound of the centipede, ranni casting aside her rune and her flesh husk and taking the form of a doll, all in the plan to recant the greater will and the 2 fingers to usher in change over the lands between.
Always love watching your videos, thanks for continuing with Elden Ring! You completely changed Bloodborne and Souls for me, and I'm excited to see your takes on ER
I think the most likely theory is that GEQ was Marika's rival.Ranni talks about how only she,Miquella and Malenia could claim the title of Empryrean so it was before her,but she says in a way that it seems this was the first time they were considering a sucessor for Marika. So i believe the gloam eyed queen is very old,before the erdtree when it seemed there were more gods running around given that Godwyn was the first demigod to die.
I can see Marika being the Gloom-eyed Queen as a different title the same way Godfrey & Horah Loux are the same but what if Marika had taken in destined death into herself, lost to her shadow & cursed him w/ destined death the way she cursed the fire giants.Then it could be for this reason that Radagon returns & the 2 fingers unify them into 1 being.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Gloam-Eyed Queen was an aspect of Mericka, like Malina might be an aspect of her. I'm still a believer that Radagon was his own entity before merging with her. Malina was Mericka's agent (kinda like the Monkey King's hair power), so while Mericka remained under close observation, her agent was able to 'finish the job.' Its also likely that if the Golden Order was unstable by the time the tarnished shows up, it might have been even more unstable earlier.
21:26 made me realiseer the game uses separate stories to parallel the more ambiguous thoughts and connections in the game. Similar to fnaf using offshoot story books to bridge gaps in lore
I'm coming around on Melina being Marika. Specifically an aspect of Marika. Marika talks about Radagon as a sort of aspect of herself. Why then could she not have had more aspects? Or created more, as in the case of sealing away part of herself. Maybe the part of herself she sealed away is the part of herself embodied in Melina. Melina talking about her burned and broken body then could be pointing at Marika's broken body. "Burned" by what appears to be crystallized death impaling her side. Melina being created and cast off as an aspect of Marika might explain her pink hair. If she was created after Radagon became instantiated, maybe Melina is part Marika and part Radagon. So she wound up with a combination of blonde and red hair which became pink. Then there's the whole "daughter" issue. Daughter doesn't necessarily mean offspring. Daughter cells are the result of the division of a single parent cell. Marika being related to the Numen and Nox could mean that she has some capacity to divide herself ala meiosis/mitosis. When she says she was born at the foot of the Erdtree, she's talking about being split off from Marika/Radagon. So she could be the Gloam Eyed Queen and Marika at the same time. As her body is a division of Marika and her animating force is an aspect of Marika. This might even explain why Marika's body is broken. It's not really broken. Part of it was cast off in order to create Melina. Melina then is an agent of Marika's will in the deepest sense. That said. I think that maybe Melina's time away from Marika has resulted in her developing her own personality a bit. This is a theme which has been explored in practically every piece of media involving clones. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we might be seeing it here. As a final thought. If this is in fact the case, imagine the consequences for Ziostorm's fairly recent video relating a number of things in Elden Ring to mushrooms. Marika is, or at least can behave like, some kind of slime mold or maybe a mycelial network. This could mean that we might not just encounter more unknown children of Marika. We might encounter more Melinas.
I think Melina is to Ranni what Radagon is to Marika (two different personalities that share the same body.) The main evidence of this is their shared eye tattoo, which all but outright says that they are connected in some way. The second being that ranni and Marika are both empyreans. It is possible that empyreans are/have the ability to split spiritually. In the words of another commenter they are, "spiritual hermaphrodites." So when ranni killed her own body to start her grand plan, the two split as there is nothing keeping them together any more. All of this being said, it is likely that ranni and Melina are both the gloam eyed queen. As they both seem to have similar goals to her.
Here’s and interesting theory: The Gloam eyed Queen is Melina. She was subsumed by Marika much the same way as Radagon becomes Marika. In an attempt to fulfill her wishes, Marika releases Melina (what’s left of the Gloam eyed queen) to assist the tarnished in becoming lord.
Posting on an old video. Melina is likely the gloam eyed queen. Her body was destroyed when fighting Mal and since death was removed from the order her spirit was essentially reborn at the foot of the erdtree through the queen. Her gloam eye was sealed by the black flame hence the half scorpion mark.
Ok I'm going to say it now. I think Melina is Marikas first born. She then would be a peice of her. Then she would also be part of the elden ring. When the Erdtree want to remove and seal away destined death it would seal away Melina as well which she couldn't do as she was her daughter. So she told malaketh to take her great rune and seal it to protect her. So she hid her and gave her the potion of forgetfulness this is why the other demi gods don't know about her. Also very through video! Thanks for making it!
The GEQ is Marika herself. Or at least, she was once. A goddess devoted to the balance of life and death and the cycle that results. Allied to the Greater Will, but ultimately deceived as to it's purpose and subborned after the sealing of the Rune of Death. The most important bit of lore is the Radagon = Marika bit. Just about everything that the Golden Order attributes to "Marika" is actually the act of Radagon. Because once, Radagon was simply an offshoot of Marika (the same way Millicent is an offshoot/sister/daughter to Malenia). However, as Shabriri will be all to happy to tell you, division leads to distinction. While he began as simply a piece of Marika, at some point he (then still she) became her own being with her own will. And, unlike Marika, she was utterly devoted to The Greater Will. She betrayed her sister/mother/self and used Malekith to seal the Rune of Death, essentially dividing Marika once more and leaving her master of only life (Marika the Eternal). She then led the Golden Host to victory in the war on the Mountaintop, but was possibly cursed by the Fire Giants. Whether by that curse, Marika's influence or some aspect of distinction, transformed into the very male Radagon. Still essentially an aspect of Marika in power, but no longer able to deceive Marika's followers. And no longer able to call all the shots in the Golden Order. Think about it. Godfrey is sent warring, which suits him fine. But conveniently hides the fact that his wife has been effectively replaced by a doppelganger, and even more so that said double has become a man. Godfrey is then stripped of his grace and dispatched from The Lands Between, so that he can't uncover the truth. At which point Radagon, "summoned" by Marika has himself appointed as her second husband and Elden Lord. Which gives him cover to once again be in charge. The crux of the game is basically Radagon's grab for power, his attempt to truly usurp Marika's place as the supreme god of The Lands Between ("You have not yet become me."), and Marika's long form plot to undermine both him and The Greater Will. Melina is herself another offshoot of Marika. Her "daughter," if you will. Tasked by her mother with freeing Destined Death and restoring the balance of life and death to the Lands Between. You can actually think of Shabriri and Melina as similar in many ways. Neither has a true body. Both are representatives of a broken power that wishes to affect an outcome in the great war in the Lands Between. Shabriri serves the Frenzied Flame (and through it effectively the remains of the being once known as the One Great) while Melina is in service to Marika, or more accurately her previous self, the GEQ.
My theory is that Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the reason she lacks a body is because it was killed in her attempt to become a vessel for the Rune of Death, much like Marika was a vessel for the Elden Ring. The marking on her closed eye also looks avian, which ties her to (possibly) the Twinbird, tender of the Ghostflame, which is adjacent to Black Flame in that they're colorless flames which deliver death.
It frustrates me somewhat that people miss some details when it comes to the GEQ. "Confining Destined Death" in the first description you showed refers to queen Marika plucking the RoD from the Elden Ring which created the Golden Order. It was Marika who did this the first time (she plucked it from the Elden Ring itself in order to remove death from the lands between, and bound it in Maliketh), and the second time (when GEQ was defeated) it was Maliketh. From various item descriptions and dialogue: The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation… The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost. After a fragment of Death was stolen on that fateful night, Maliketh bound the blade within his own flesh, such that none might ever rob Death again Thus we have two instances of RoD being "outside" Maliketh, one in which it was inside of the Elden Ring, and thus just a fact of life, it couldn't have been used as such. And the second, which happened in between the Night of the Black Knives and the Shattering. Rogier refers to the Night happening long before the Shattering, so we know there was time for her to exist. The RoD was stolen by Ranni, and she used it to kill her own body. After that, whoever the GEQ was likely used it for her own ends, and ended up defeated by Maliketh, which explains how he got the RoD back in the first place *and* how the second sealing happened. A detail to add onto this is the fact that GEQ's followers, the Godskins, appear in every area relevant to the Carian siblings. GEQ's sword lies in Radahn's tower. I do not think that is a coincidence in the slightest. This also goes along with Melina being the GEQ (something I also believe in) because Melina and Ranni know each other. Given that Godwyn is also said to be the first dead demigod in history, it also wouldn't make sense for Godskins to exist before this event or even needed in a time when death was commonplace.
Ranni did not steal the Rune of Death (or Destined Death) , she stole a fragment of the Rune of Death from Maliketh -- only a fragment. And she used it in a ritual to divest from her body. Only after that did Maliketh seal Destined Death inside himself. The Gloam-Eyed Queen controlled Destined Death in its entirety. For me, it's very difficult to internalize when exactly all these events took place. We know that the Gloam-Eyed Queen controlled Destined Death; we know that Maliketh defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and took Destined Death from her (or did he even do that?); we know Marika plucked the Rune of Death out of the Elden Ring, and established her Golden Order, without death; except for Maliketh alone, who she needed as a vessel to house Destined Death. One important distinction to make is that Destined Death is just the finality of death, as in nothing comes after it, you are gone. It is the ability to die permanently. The Rune of Death, specifically, refers to Destined Death's place within the Elden Ring. The real crux of the timeline for me is this: was Destined Death already in the Elden Ring when the Gloam-Eyed Queen had possession, or "wielded" Destined Death? And if so, how would that work?
Melina leaves so many questions left unanswered. She seems to have not only control over and a connection with the erdtree, Marika, Torrent and the roundtable hold but also one with destined death since she threatens to be it's arbiter against you if you become lord of chaos. I want to say she is part of the ring itself and exists as some kind of unintended(or maybe even intended) side effect of the removal of death from the ring, guiding the player tarnished to restore the ring and bring death back to the lands between, fixing Marika's mistake. Problem is if she *is* death but it was sealed away by maliketh how does she exist? Something to do with Ranni and her stealing it possibly? Or maybe she is what's left after maliketh sealed it away?
Melina is both interesting and confusing. The fact that she is already depicted as burnt and scarred feels related to Ranni, whose physical body is burnt atop the tower where we find it. It could even be that Melina was sacrificed in another attempted Erdtree burning but the process failed and she was left bodiless. We do know that others like Vyke and Bernahl were faced with the choice of burning their Maiden's. Vyke chose not to, but Bernahl's Maiden did so willingly based on his armor description. Whose to say it wasn't Melina? But I'll admit his armor makes the potential timeline of the return of the Tarnished and their quest for Lordship rather confusing.
Gloam eyed Queen is our "Sun's first born" thematically speaking. Melina is 'imprisoned', if you will, by Marika, who is punishing her, likely for the black flame apostasy. She remains "burned and bodiless" because her real self is kept in the Erdtree. Marika uses her, or some form or aspect of her, as some kind of retainer/errand boy. The memory of the Gloam eyed queen is small anyways in the Lands Between, so I feel it isn't farfetched to say the crown had some hand in that. Melina had her status as a demigod revoked and her memory is long scrubbed from the minds of the people.
It’s difficult to say for sure since these are the theories that everyone admits may end up being true. There is just so little information to go on to reach a clear and definitive answer. The gods in this new game appears to take a variety of forms. What’s worse is there are 3 things specifically connected to death the Godskin Apostles’ Black Flame of Death, the Cold Black Flame of the Deathbirds, and event Deathroot because of it being the scattered pieces of the Rune of Death directly. It gets surprisingly complicated the more things you realize are connected in 1 way.
On one hand it seems like we're missing some crucial information we won't get until a DLC but on the other hand it would be in character for FS to just don't elaborate on that ever lol
I'm oddly thinking the Gloam Eyes Queen was Marika's twin sister. My only proof of such a claim is the fact that twins are a genetic trait as much as anything. Twins are more likely to have twins, than others, and Marika is known to have birthed two sets of twins.
Melina's knife is also a skinning knife, and bears the same shape as the fingerslayer blade. I suspect there's an element of truth in every connection you laid out. It's possible that the fingerslayer blade IS Melina's body (or the GEQ's body of you don't subscribe to that). Melina being a force in the world that represents death would align with Melina's motivations throughout the game, and it would explain how she is bodiless, if she was defeated by Maliketh and turned into that blade. Also, it would explain why the fingerslayer blade has the power to kill the Two Fingers at all; it was made from the corpse of someone who killed gods and wielded Destined Death.
I think the mask just means the flesh of an innocent albonuric is far less than that of a god who posed a legitimate challenge and could defend itself.
I like to think that ranni and Melina shared the same body. Similar to radagon and marika. While Melina, once split from ranni, became the gloam eyed queen. It could explain why Melina is "burned and bodyless", why both have those marks on their eye, what rannis great rune actually is and why ranni mentions only 3 empyrians. There are several other things that could be explained by that. I really hope that we get at least something that clarifies something about the lore in the DLC.
I like the idea of Marika having to split herself to separate the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. as the video tells, we only know that she did this separation but none is said about the cost of this action (and as it is not said a lot of people grant it for free). Maliketh would then defeat this entity : The gloam eyed queen. But after this the gloam eyed queen is dead/destroyed and thus I don't think she could be Melina. For Melina, the most reliable info is what she tells us : She is the "daughter" of Marika and Marika has given her a task. As Marika is kept prisoner within the tree, the only way to get out would be a non physical form : Melina. So she creates Melina (or splits herself once more) and Melina, as a pure spirit can leave the tree. She will then push us to destroy the tree and thus free Marika. A Marika who is willing to die if we believe hewg (he clearly tells Marika told him to forge a weapon able to kill gods) At the end of the Frenezied flame, Marika former body is no more, but the Rune of Death still exists. Melina is now really free, no more influenced by Marika. She simply claims the Rune of Death and become a NEW gloam eyed queen as we could define the gloam eyed queen as " a part of Marika imbued with the power of the rune of death". This makes more sense to me than Melina being exactly the same person as the former gloam eyed queen. No use to add, to much connections.
I really like the point about people being turned into weapons. My only issue is that Marika/Radogan's body is still there after the fight with the Elden Beast and that we create the Sacred Relic Sword out of the Elden Beast's remembrance, not from anything that we receive from Marika/Radogan. Perhaps the process is reversible?
Loved the video, really. You ponder about some of my favourite mysteries in the game. Thank you :) There is only one thing I dont agree with. I dont think "The Gloom eyed queen is a sword" is entirely its own posibility. I do see the conections you draw and they are great. I like how it comes together with the helix design and the sacred relic sword and knive. But if that is the case, it would only be a result of any of the other 4 possible candidates. As its very clear the sword, if that is the case, used to be a person. A sword can not be defeated by Maliketh for example, and the other 2 pieces (Sacred relic sword and knive) come from bodies. Its a very small detail but I think it matters, as then the question is "who's boddy left behind the sword"? Cheers!!
This is what I think happened Melina was Marikas daughter before she became a god which is why she was never mentioned. When Marika removed the rune of death Melina became the Gloam-eyed Queen turned on her was killed by Malekith and sealed away with the rune of death. She was then reborn when the rune of death was stolen during the night of the black knives.
I think the GEQ is also the snow crone that was ranni's secret mentor. It would make sense that she told Ranni how to kill her empyrean flesh and not her soul having previously held destined death, potentially the entire elden ring or it's primordial crucible form, and being an empyrean herself. We know placidusax was Elden Lord before the time of the erdtree and GEQ very well could have been his consort and host of the ER/crucible.
So for a general timeline: Marika shows up, Horah Loux pledges himself to her, and he defeats and then grafts Sarosh, king of beasts to himself and becomes Godfrey the Golden, establishing the Golden Lineage with his marriage to Marrika and beginning the Crucible Era, they immediately wage war on the fire giants. After winning they go to war with the Gloam Eyed Queen, seals destined death, invoking Radagon into existence, he then leads the war against Rays Lucaria, marries Renalla and the rest is pretty clear from there.
I think there might be some weight in the idea that The Gloam-Eyed Queen was a daughter of Marika as it was implied by the walking mausoleums that Marika had many children other than the ones we meet in-game however if they were weak or to die then they would be seen as sacrifices for the greater will.
To me, it's pretty obvious Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen. With her literally having a gloam eye in the Frenzied Flame ending, her having unique attack animations that resemble the black knife assassins, having red hair, and having the same naming convention of the children of Radagon and Marika. Seems like the player character is her new shadow, as she is technically still and empyrean
The Gloam-Eyed Queen was the title of a possible successor of Queen Marika. Marika had her killed by Maliketh because she was the head of a clan of god killers. Nobles and Apostles. Perhaps, hers (the Gloam-Eyed Queen’s) was a court composed of those who wanted the gods dead, to destroy Order and establish a new way of things. Melina means “droplet of honey”, the last drop of honeyed gold of the Erdtree. She is not an empyrean, perhaps she is just a baby Marika had with the soul of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. A god is not easily killed, the Flame of Frenzy was sealed away, as the one of Rot. The Gloam-Eyed Queen was perhaps again, sealed away and when Marika actually needed the gods to die, the Greater Will, then she freed her and maybe she lost her memory: “I lost my purpose long ago” Melina says. She lost her purpose, she was sealed away and all that remained was a simple girl who then, decided to be used as kindling to give the Lands Between another chance, to be repaired. Her hair doesn’t belong to either of her supposed parents. Melina is not Marika’s daughter in a real sense, she is just brought back from her sealed state as the Gloam-Eyed Queen. So, Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen and she is back to her original God Slaying Persona the moment a new god arises, the player character if they accept to become a vessel of the Flame of Frenzy.
You're not alone in saying Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen. I suspect she's also Marika's daughter and was even a part of the night of knives. Also, since she is, "bodiless," could she have been part of a similar ritual to the one that Ranni used to separate her spirit from her body? What if the Godslayer Greatsword is body of the gloam-eyed queen and Melina is the soul?
I think the ritual used on Melina was Maliketh slapping her around with the rune of death so hard that she lost her body.
That's a very solid theory 👌 I never thought about the gods layer greatsword In that way but it actually makes total sense. The sword still exist after the gloam eyed queens defeat because it was created as a result of the ritual most likely done by Marika after maliketh defeats her maybe ?
She is even called marikas daughter in the game files
Melina has been a theory since very early on. I still think it's the best theory
It’s interesting to say but I feel when we try to get the great sword there’s no interaction or something melina would pop up to say something to you. I wish it would happen with her showing up after you get the weapon.
Melina also says she lost her purpose a long time ago, if she was destined death and her purpose was to bring death but that power was sealed it would make sense. I think all the clues are clearly pointing at her being the gloam eyed queen.
The purpose she's talking about in that dialogue is the purpose given to her by her mother in the Erdtree - and the purpose she rediscovers when you bring her back to Leyndell.
She also said she is burnt and bodiless. We know Maliketh’s blade burns as it kills.
I think he killed (burned) her body, but Marika recovered her spirit and used her as a means to continue her mission.
@@thetrueconnoisseur She says she is acting on her own volition after Leyndell, saying she is acting outside of her mother's "designs."
@@joshuawinstead7621 She says she's choosing to be burnt for herself, because she has her own vision of the world she wants to emerge from that act. But the dialogue also strongly indicates that her mother's purpose for her was to burn the Erdtree - what's changing is not the act but the intended outcome.
I feel she is lost fragment to marika and she could be the recarnation of the gloam eyed queen.
So I have a theory about Torrent, though I'm surely not the first person to think of this. I think he was Marika's horse. And my reasoning behind this is as follows: 1. He's carrying Melina who's certainly connected to Marika in one way or another. 2. Torrent guides her to you, not the other way around, and he signifies to her that he finds you worthy by sniffing your hand meaning he's aware of the scent of one who is capable of becoming Elden Lord and really the only way he could know that is if he was in the presence of a former Elden Lord or Marika herself. 3 Ranni says she knew Torrent's former master and that person used the three wolf summons and we find Marika's shadow bound beast Maliketh in front of that statue with the three wolves almost as if it means something to him and that would only make sense if that statue was of Marika, maybe commemorating her use of the wolves to gain power? I know a lot of that is speculation, and this video isn't really about Torrent, but you mentioned him and idk it made me want to throw this theory out there.
@Damien Solomon I have a theory that torrent is a goat
@Damien Solomon oh i could see that
The lone wolf ashes are more interesting than they seem. the wolves had once accepted a tarnished in their pack, the "lone wolf" of the ashes. the only tarnished who had any interest in becoming a wolf, who are said to be shadows of the Empyreans, is the Raging Wolf. he wanted to become the shadow of an Empyrean. the question is which Empyrean, answered by the fact that his weapon of choice is the God-slaying blade.
If we go with that logic, if the old owner of torrent is Marika, and she used to own those ashes, that were associated to a man who wanted to become the shadow of the Gloam Eyed Queen. I can see Marika being the Queen.
@@Sinha010 There’s a couple things that back this up:
1. The spectral steed whistle is made of a delicate “goldwork”, not just gold, mirroring the Item Description on the Unalloyed Needle. I didn’t think much of it at first but after seeing the flame of frenzy ending, I’ve speculated that the material is Unalloyed Gold. This is backed by the fact that the whistle is still intact after the flame of frenzy is unleashed. We know that Miquella’s needle is made from the same material and has the properties to ward away the effects of the flame of frenzy and rot, which both originate from outer gods.
2. There is evidence that Miquella discovered something in the game known as the primeval current. Torrent is another name for “current.
That’s a interesting theory. Plus there’s connection of maiden riding horse that is in Celtic mythology and I feel it’s connected to marika/melina and torrent
The Frenzied Flame ending makes it so plain that Melina is the GEQ that it seems weird to entertain the idea that it is anyone else. The specifics of what that means are certainly up for speculation but I really don't think they were trying to be subtle with it.
I mean, instead of being Marika or her daughter, the queen COULD have been Marika's sister, one who possibly may have once been alongside Marika and been a candidate to hold or share the Elden Ring with Marika, before either she betrayed or was betrayed her self by Marika. Plus that does make the connection to the Nox still fit.
I like this plus it makes sense if she's Marika's twin sister because twins run in her family (Morgott x Mohg, Miquella x Malenia)
Marika is related to life
Gloam eye to death
Demigods embody runes of the elden ring
So did marika and gloam eye
@@Thebrothersfolife I don't think it's days Morgott and Mohg are twins?
But that made me think.. What if the GEQ is Marika's sister and, more scandalously, is an Omen like Morgott/Mohg? Makes it possible it runs in Merika's family?
That would make sense why so little is said about the GEQ... After the Golden Order is formed, Omen became anathema. Would look bad if Merika's own sister was one.
@@Mortiel they’re 100% twins. It says it on one of their runes, they share the same tower to activate their runes
(fun fact: if you defeat them both before restoring their runes they show up side by side)
The only difference is that Morgott, though he was shunned by grace chose to try and appease the greater will, he exercised his horns and cast away his accursed blood. This blood is in his sword.
Mohg on the other hand fully leaned into his accursed blood and met the Formless mother.
Their relationship is paralleled by the twin omen boss fight on the way to their tower.
And that’s a possibility, Marika’s sister being an omen. There’s not enough info about some of these characters and it’s kinda frustrating. Hoping for DLC someday.
@@Thebrothersfolife Good call out! I either didn't notice or forgot it says they are twins on Mohg's great rune.
And yes, definitely not enough info. Just an amusing speculation.
Great vid. It’s fairly obvious that Marika is Melina who is the Gloam Eyed Queen and is also Ranni who is Rennala and Torrent and the turtle pope (he knows too much). She is also likely Gurranq, who is not Maliketh since you beat Maliketh and Gurranq says nothing of it. Both the spirit upgrade lady and Fia have the same shield as Ranni when you try to hit them, meaning they must also be one and the same. Mohg being in two places suggests that one is also an illusion, and only Ranni does that, so Ranni is also Mohg. Millicent is obviously Malenia without memories, so obviously the Malenia we fight is also Ranni/Melina/Marika. Rya having no clear mother is also clearly a reference to her being Melina, and Tanith being her mother and loving Rykard is a reference to Tanith being Marika as well.
The game vaguely implies that Marika is Radagon as well, though that’s not as obvious and much more controversial. If you assume that, you must also assume that Radagon is Patches since both are in love with Tanith/Marika, and same for Hoarah Loux - we never see them together in the same place after all. Some would even claim Hoarah Loux is Godfrey but that’s going way too far, we never see Godfrey undressing into Hoarah Loux and their personalities don’t match.
I see no lie
They're all the same!! xD
this is flame of frenzy propaganda
I don't think you need to worry about 'going crazy' as long as you're still critiquing/questioning your own theories and asking for feedback, or otherwise open to alternate possibilities! It's only when someone starts warping their thinking around preserving a preconception - resisting or rejecting evidence that doesn't fit, or turning on anyone who disagrees - that something like ideas about the game can become something like a problem.
So many people quote the Godslayer Greatsword as being the source from which Godskin's channel the Black Flame, but I read it as Godskin's Black Flame can *also* be channeled from the sword, as in it's (presumably) a rare case where an object can channel the Black Flame by itself.
Regarding Melina, I honestly think she was a Numen sword maiden from (and possibly former leader of) the same order that birthed the Black Knife Assassins. After all, the Black Knives they use only became that after the piece of Destined Death was stolen... Would it not make sense they wielded Blades of Calling before that?
I do think Melina held a special station as the Kindling Maiden, which I think was actually a sort of spymaster/secret police captain, with one task being overseeing the post-war operations in the Forbidden Lands (kindling maiden being a code name that nods to the Fell Flame). This is based on her having seemingly the only Rold Lift Medallion to access the Forbidden Lands and the room where her Blade of Calling is found resembles the office of someone in authority but is hidden at the access point to the Forbidden Lands (allowing spies to report in without being seen entering the capital).
Additionally, the corpse outside that office (a subordinate of hers) has clothing of what honestly sounds to me like a sort of assassin/spy/secret police.
> So many people quote the Godslayer Greatsword as being the source from which Godskin's channel the Black Flame, but I read it as Godskin's Black Flame can also be channeled from the sword, as in it's (presumably) a rare case where an object can channel the Black Flame by itself.
Sure. I also think that's a strong possibility, but since its description is ambiguous, I think it's important to entertain the possibilities.
@@LastProtagonist That's true, I can definitely agree it's written vaguely and why people see it differently. It simply never really made much sense to me... Why would that sword be required (and only that sword) for a Godskin to channel Black Flame, no matter the distance/divides between the two?
But let's be honest, that wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the lore... Radahn literally is blocking the orbit of galaxies worth of stars. Why couldn't a sword be an arcane conduit to the Rune of Death?
There's an interesting connection between the God Devouring Serpent, The Formless Mother, and The Gloam-Eyed Queen. Of note is that the godskin apostles wear extra layers of skin, similar to a snake shedding its skin, while also having snake like tails. The apostles are also able to stretch out their torsos and attack similar to the Man-Serpents. The Formless Mother connection comes from the Serpent Bow and Serpent arrow which make mention of a group of assassins known as the 'Formless Serpents' with not much else about them. It seems there's a connection between all three Outer Gods in some capacity, with the inhuman physiology being similar to the Crucible suggests that the Godskin also hold some connection the Crucible itself.
All were worshipped in the time of the Ancient Dragons when the Divine Towers were built. The Divine Towers are obviously connected to black flame as it seems to streak down through the air within them. The art on the walls within also seem to depict The Crucible, with a young Elden Beast in its branches.
Pressure pads within are decorated with the sun, seemingly associating the sun with The Crucible and Divine Towers.
The Ancient Dragons are said to have befriended Godwyn, who is strongly associated with Castle Sol and thus was likely associated with worship of the sun as well seeing as Sol literally means sun. Such dragons also use "primeval lightning", which is red-tinged gold just like the armor of the Crucible Knights and all associated with The Crucible in general.
The Ancient Dragons also invented "communion", which is a form of blood sacrifice. An Ancient Dragon corpse can be found at every site of dragon communion, and one such site even exists in the land of Ancient Dragons, Farum Azula. Communion is the term used to refer to both dragon communion and Mohg's worship, and the seal which boosts dragon communion magic is also described as being a "Formless Drakeblood Seal". Thus, we can conclude that dragon communion is most likely an ancient form of Formless Mother worship invented by the Ancient Dragons (who also worshipped The Crucible).
The Formless Mother seems to change its followers just as dragon communion and The Crucible does. Misbegotten / Crucible Knights have wings and horns just as The Formless Mother grants Mohg wings and his blood-soaked Albinauric followers horns. Unlike his brother, Mohg has very dark skin, perhaps like the skin of the Magma Wyrms seems to darken as they transform from communion. His wings are bird rather than dragon-like, but birds are strongly associated with dragons and there are many birds as well as statues of a bird diety in Farum Azula.
Interestingly, Mohg and The Formless Mother have chosen the ruins of an Uhl palace to make home. Their followers worship the statues of the Uhl god just as they do Mohg, and that lost society also seemed to have worshipped the sun, as well as the rot and poison gods. Depictions of the sun can be found among the religious tablets of that lost society, and their strucures such as the Grand Cloister being populated by rot-kin suggest they also worshipped the scorpion Rot God. Rot is deeply tied to poison, and the Mushroom Crown item description states that both rot and poison were worshipped in a past society. Just as the defeated Great Scorpion served as the vessel of the Rot God, so does the God-Devouring Serpent for the God of Poison.
It is likely that the Godskins are the product of The Gloam Eyed Queen (associated with birth) reproducing with the God-Devouring Serpent, just as in the foul rituals which produced the man-serpents. Being born of an empyrean mother, the Godskins are obviously stronger than any other of the Great Serpent's kin.
The Serpent Arrow does not read that it resembles a snake, but rather a flying snake. As such, it is likely that the Formless Serpents were children of the God-Devouring Serpent who gained wings from communing with the Formless Mother, just as Mohg did. Them being direct children of the Formless Mother is impossible seeing as she is formless. Mohg requiring a consort of his own also clearly implies that the Formless Mother is not an entity who can fulfill such a role herself.
The Coil Shield, which can be found in Mt. Gelmir, is a bronze sculpture of a poisonous snake which was used in gladitorial combat. Maliketh's arena (and Ancient Dragon architecture generally) is clearly of Greco-Roman inspiration and greatly resemlbes the colosseum.
In my opinion, the picture being painted is clear. Just as the different factions of The Lands Between competed (even in times of peace) such as in the fight between Malenia and Godrick, there once was a society of cooperating cultures who competed in combat at the arenas spread throughout the map. Led by the Ancient Dragons (explaining the predominance of their architecture), each culture had their own god or gods who competed with one another, yet all were united in adopting Ancient Dragon worship of The Crucible and in their practice of blood sacrifice (Formless Mother worship).The Serpent Bow even specifically states that it is imbued with "pagan" magic, and, of course, paganism is a polytheistic religion of the Greco-Romans...
Thus, we can infer that the fall of said many-god worshiping Ancient Dragon society is a commentary on the real world historical cultural shift towards monotheism and away from blood sacrifice. Godwyn likely learned of their Crucible worship and secret red lightning techniques (which is a metaphor for him being indoctrinated into Greco-Roman religion) and thus was killed. The worship of many gods being perhaps one of the most reviled of sins in monotheism.
@@davidgomez5032 damn I like this
@@davidgomez5032 This is a fantastic analysis. The ancient dragon cult of the capital could be seen to mimic monotheistic religions like christianity adopting pagan rituals and divorcing them of their context and cultural heritage in order to ease people into a new religion.
> The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.
It seems like the Greater Will's meddling with forces of nature and trying to bully other outer gods out of the lands between is directly responsible for things becoming as dire as they are when we are revived by grace.
Great video as always my man, the Lore community is enriched by your insights.
Another piece of evidence for there being an analogous relationship between Melina and Millicent is that they wear the same clothes-- the Traveller's set, I think, that can be found in the Haligtree, though Melina wears it with a cloak. That could be a coincidence, or just a convenient reuse of assets, but it feels very deliberate. I think it's intended to hint at parallels between their identities.
That reminds me. For the unused quick descriptions, the Traveler set in Elphael says "Arm wraps worn by Malenia," and the Japanese version says "メリナが身に着けていた腕帯" [Arm wraps worn by Melina]. Idk if there was a name swap, but I thought this was funny. Maybe there's something more to it after all
@@LastProtagonist That's so interesting! Thanks for sharing that info.
There's cut content from a very early version of the Malenia fight that hints in very early versions of the story Melina was originally Malenia in disguise (hence the costume and the Margit/Morgott-style Melina/Malenia name shenanigans).
It seems they fully backed off of this idea, though.
I like the idea that Melina is the gloam eyed queen and her body, when defeated, was turned into the sword, a la Radagon. It all sort of fits together nicely. She says She’s burned and bodiless. Her body becoming a flaming sword makes sense.
But no matter what, her being the daughter of Merika and an empyrean all makes the most sense.
It is interesting yes. She is also lost fragment to gloam eye queen. Maybe if there was a moment they added after you require the sword she would pop up in the interaction or cutscene
There's another possibility for Melina, admitedly a bit of a stretch, but I have a suspicion that Melina might actually either be the Erdtree, or a seed of the Erdtree of sorts, and that the Erdtree is her real mother. Since the Erdtree absorbs the souls of those who die, it wouldn't be too far off that Melina might have been created by the Erdtree using some of Marika's essence, post-shattering, but that's not even necessary.
It would explain why she can play the role of a finger maiden without being one. Why she can transport you to the roundtable hold (if it's linked to the Erdtree). Why she can summon a manifestation of the Erdtree, and why she does it when she dies. Considering the Erdtree herself too had been stripped from her fate and frozen in time by the sealing of Destined Death, why she would think seeking Destined Death and restoring it was important. Also why she says she's now working out of her own will -- burning the Erdtree is not something her mother could wish for, but Melina can understand it's really the only way out for her.
Also why she's so opposed to the Frenzied Flame, one thing is the Erdtree burning to let future offspring be born from its ashes -- its spirit would live on -- another is to melt it down so thoroughly that nothing can ever grow from its ashes again. If you burn the Erdtree with the Frenzied Flame, Melina dies in spirit, becoming one who lives in death, and her purple eye may signify she has made contact with Destined Death with the purpose to seek you and end you.
I dont buy it. Its more plausible that she is the gloam eye queen.
I think the comparison of godskin to Albinauric is just a matter of two flayed corpses. The godskins (the garment) is done almost out of respect for gods and acknowledgment of their position as "gods". An Albinauric's head being stripped from the rest of its body and turned into a mask is done in mockery. I don't think it's meant to go any further than that: two different instances of flaying.
I mean they talk about "the nobles who hunted the gods" It seems like the ultimate in subversion of their authority. Making someone into a literal object is like the ultimate expression of power over them, I feel they wear the skins like pelts, like a trophy of sorts. It feel contemptuous, like "look at me, so much more powerful than the gods I have rendered them down to a handsome tracksuit."
Yeah I don't think the Godskins are meant to be interpreted as respectful of the Gods. I mean they hunt them and wear their skin, I don't see that as very respectful lol
damn must be my birthday, I love these videos. scoot over vadi, this guy is a real lore master.
it IS my birthday, and I also love these videos!
i think its possible that Marika herself is Melina in some way, and Radagon is actually some kind of highly advanced Mimic Tear-like creature. See "You have yet to become me", and the concept of "unalloyed gold", implying that Radagon is "alloyed gold", or gold with silver. Radagon is some kind of alchemical work undertaken by Marika to form a scapegoat for the Elden Beast, I think. The original sort of path that Ranni took, separating her soul and body. This sort of tracks with the Empyrean children if they're actually the children of Marika and Marika's mimic tear, as they all seem to have disabled or nonfunctional legs like the Albinaurics. Malenia uses prosthetic legs, Miquella seems to be entirely immobile in his child form and makes people carry him around, and Ranni's original body found on the roof of the Divine Tower has degenerated or atrophied legs. (I think it's worth considering that Ranni is actually the payoff for all the "cuckoo" symbolism in Raya Lucaria and the Carian manor. The cuckoo places its eggs in other nests for other birds to raise. It's likely that Ranni was given to Rennala around the same time as the egg of rebirth.)
Crazy how I haven’t seen anyone mention this possibility about all of Rennala’s children not being able to move of their own accord. Shame we don’t see Rylard’s original body either.
Just checked the cinematic and can see Radhan move his foot as he leans to gravity magic his sword into his hands. ;(
@@AutekMor yeah, thats the odd thing. i think its specifically just marika and radagons children who cant move their legs. so it makes me think ranni isnt actually rennalas daughter
This will be mostly unrelated, but it pertains to Ranni's quote "I will not be controlled by that thing". Everyone says shes referring to her two fingers, I thought it was obvious that she's referring to the Elden Beast directly inhabiting her body.
Watch the opening cutscene of the final fight where Marika drops off the Rune Arc, and Radagon stand up and raises the hammer. The left half of his body is that black, malleable, shadowy substance, and then within his core harbors the elden ring, obviously broken at this point.
Now follow that with the cutscene where you kill Radagon and the beast appears. The black shadowy substance dissipates, and the arm appears to mold Radagon into the sword. Just pause the cutscenes when you see Radagon brandish the ring and when the beast's arm emerges i think its almost unarguable that the the beast was harbored within Radagon/Marika. I thought the Elden Beast existing as a parasite was the consensus?
Now consider everything you mentioned and everything omitted about Marika's ties to the Nox and the Eternal Cities. How many ways have the Nox tried to kill and banish the Elden Beast/Greater Will? Theyre creating weapons, synthetic races, developing puppetry, and there's a infant theory derived from the Moon of Nokstella claiming that The Nox summoned Astel(s) and the Fallingstars and this is why Radhan was holding back the stars. These purpose of their existence went from whatever it had been - to annihilating the Greater Will and its vessels.
Here's one alternative to this where the Elden Beast doesn't choose Marika as its host out of spite or a part of their ongoing struggle for power:.... Was Marika, the Nox Empyrean, if selected by the Elden Beast to be it's new host, always a Nox "sleeper agent" or ticking time bomb?
At one point you mentioned Carians possibly being Nox which I totally think has so much support and almost solidified by the portal to Nokstella in Renna's rise, keeping in mind that the Carians and the acadamy are not interchangable. The Carians (Nox) being persecuted (?) after Radagon's tenure now makes alot of sense. If Ranni the Carian is in some capacity Nox, then of course shes going to kill Radagon, her life's purpose is to annihilate the Greater Will, of course she "will not be controlled by that thing", and she's not going to make the same mistake as the former Nox empyrean Marika and allow the Elden Beast to claim her as its host.
Oooh, new LP video on Elden Ring lore. Noice. Thank you so much for your work!
This is such a compelling, thought-provoking video!
My take is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is the previous form of Melina. After the Godslayers were defeated by Malekith, GEQ was captured and taken to the Erdtree. There, she was herself skinned, and the Rune of Death was "extracted" from her flesh. What was left over was then recast as Melina, and Marika there gave her the ultimate mission of burning the Erdtree.
That's why Melina calls Marika her mother, but also says she doesn't have a mother. It's why she says she is 'burned' (her skin was burned to produce or 'distill' Destined Death), and bodiless (her flesh is literally gone).
It's also why she only becomes the Gloam-Eyed Queen again in the Frenzied Flame ending. The Erdtree has been burned, and her mission fulfilled. By design, she's supposed to be dead... But she's not, because you beat her to it. Thus, she is free to retake Destined Death!
I have more thoughts on Marika, but I'll leave those for later. Suffice to say, I don't think she's human.
Or Numen.
Very interesting
I like this idea of Nox as being related to Carians and it does fit. It also fits for a couple other things: the ghostflame torch you find may be a more basic version of what would eventually become the black flame. That same ghostflame is seen with the deathrite birds (so maybe a relation between the twin god and gloam eyed and the godskins?). And I think you're on about those giants because another seat like that is found in Sellia and supposedly Radahn is protecting Sellia (where he went to school to study magic...which would make sense for him to go to his aunt's or another part of a relative's former kingdom to study magic). Maybe the meteor that winds up striking Mistwood forest was actually originally intended to bury Sellia like it did Nokstella, Nokron, and the Forgotten Eternal City, but Radahn in his last living act redirected that meteor to Mistwood. He was holding up Ranni's fate but I don't think this was an act of sabotage so much as it was just prophecy and prophecy loves to work off of coincidence more than being directly related to the actors' motives. But yeah, nox as relative to the carian kingdom makes sense.
I thought about the ghostflame angle before, but one thing which leads me to believe it's distinct from black flame is that the Ghostflame Torch inflicts the ice/frozen status effect, and the Godslayer's Blade & Godskin incantations do not
@@LastProtagonist Very true. I have trouble divorcing the two given the interwoven nature of the godskins with the carian royal family and the nox with the carians and maybe ranni ultimately serving their "lord of the night"...though maybe that's what your title becomes when you do ranni's ending, instead?
Also just remembered the greatsword says that the black flame originates from it so back to that sword as maybe a transmuted former god? Crucibles are fiery things so maybe whatever god-human served the crucible god? Dunno, there's plenty gods to choose from. The fire monks even picked two different ones given the switch from fell fire god to whoever wielded the black flame (also: does that mean the black flame marched on the mountaintop of giants?)
Melina is the key to all Elden Ring lore. She the Gloam Eye Queen and True leader of the Black Knives first the chaos ending her Gloam eye Queen power activates to stop lord of chaos also. She the leader of the black knives btw when she helps you against Morgott her style is like Black Knives moveset. Also she a Demigod and the rebel of Marika family. I’m guessing she was Marika and Radagon third daughter because her other half is Ranni.
Here is a lore write up I did about Queen Marika being... The Gloam/Dusk-Eyed Queen.
It really makes us work for it though and in true From fashion, uses other names and titles to throw us off a direct, linear understanding right away.
- Red and black spike of death impales Marika and keeps her in place when we find her at the end. Only Maliketh wields this power and only he could even defeat a God like Marika. But he's so loyal to her, why would he?
- Maliketh "defeated" the Dusk-Eyed Queen, we know Shadowbound hounds have to attack their former master if The Greater Will feels like the Empyrean is acting against It. We play through this reality with Ranni's quest and both she and Iji know Blaidd will go mad. How do they know this happens? They saw/heard of it happening to Maliketh and Marika already.
- Beast Eye is a purple, scratched up eye. It's Marika's eye from being defeated and imprisoned by her Shadowbound. No other Queen or Empyrean is "defeated" but not slain, as the text implies there except Marika. And who but her purpose-made hound could even stop her, a God?
- No other characters are named as Queen or Empyrean that aren't already accounted for/ruled out to be the DEQ (Dusk-Eyed Queen) and by that I mean Melina, she was given purpose by her mother at the foot of the Erdtree and that means she is a daughter of Marika, not old enough to be the DEQ but possesses traits of both Marika and Radagon. Eye color, hair color are passed down traits we see in game, well sure enough Melina shows us a purple/gloamy eye in one ending. Inherited trait from her mother, the Queen.
- Duskborn ending sees Godwyn rise to ascendancy and sees Death restored, with him as the Prince of Death itself. These titles aren't meaningless. Duskborn? The "Prince" of Death? Well who would the Queen be? If Godwyn is Duskborn, and if he is a Prince, his mother would of course be associated with "Dusk" and be a Queen. And we know his mother is Queen Marika.
- Fia is hooded with a black cloak and comes from some other land, she also helps create Godwyn's Duskborn ending and is Death-aligned. We see Marika wearing black hooded garb in a statue where also is holding the twins Miquella and Malenia. Her tattered clothing as we find her at the end is also black. She is also associated with the Nox/Numen race and the Black Knife Assassins that come from there as well.
- Statues of Marika in her crucified pose all show her with a flowing black cloth that wraps behind her in almost the exact same shape as the Godslayer Greatsword, which was the weapon or ritual sword of the GEQ/DEQ. You have to pivot the camera a bit to get a good view but the shape is very similar. Coiled and then open, with one flap slightly longer than the other, same tip design on the Godslayer Greatsword.
- Hewg prays to Queen Marika about his given task to craft a Godslaying weapon. Very interesting and specific task. Marika wants a God Slain. Godskins certainly take an interest in that. Who was their leader? A "defeated" Queen who was once an Empyrean. Marika.
- Marika learned the secrets of the Golden Order and realized her children would "amount only to sacrifices" as she instructs them. She knew the Erdtree was a soul parasite and by sealing Death away, she weakens the Erdtree over time. She also had Godwyn buried at the roots of it, knowing that he would grow and overtake them, choking the Erdtree further. As he was, Godwyn was an "unwanted" child since he embodied the Golden Order and she was a prisoner to it. He would end up far more useful to her as a soulless demigod who becomes the Prince of Death, not a "leal hound of the Golden Order" as she laments that Radagon would also be later. She was likely opposed to the Erdtree and Greater Will/Fingers for a long time, weaving plots in secret until the Shattering.
The biggest evidence refuting Queen Marika being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, in my opinion, is the fact that Maliketh defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and wrested control of destined death from her. So Maliketh defeated Marika, then Marika plucked destined death, extracted it from the Elden Ring and told Maliketh to seal destined death inside of himself? Maybe, but ehhh.
@@trisbane4086 i agree with what you're saying, but this could very well be "false story" told to us.
But I'd like to add something more: If the GEQ is not Marika, HOW the GEQ had the hold of Destined Death if all the runes seem to be hold only by Marika until the Shattering?
I mean, the runes are all part of the Elden Ring, and Destined Death is one of them. Unless GEQ was the Mother of Marika and a god before her, it makes no sense GEQ having Destined Death as her power, as demigods all only got a hold of Runes after the Shattering.
@@Piratadoidao How does the Gloam-Eyed Queen hold Destined Death if the Elden Ring is inside Marika? That's a good question. Coincidentally, the Gloam-Eyed Queen would not be the first one to wield Destined Death outside of the Elden Ring. There is an example of someone doing this that we're acquainted with, and it's Maliketh.
Follow my timeline of events.
1) The GEQ has Destined Death.
2) Maliketh defeats GEQ and wins Destined Death for Marika.
3) Marika creates her Golden Order when she plucks Destined Death, removes it from the Elden Ring, reshaping it, so that no longer can anyone truly die.
4) Marika entrusts Destined Death to Maliketh to lock it away: "Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."
5) Much later, Ranni devises a plot (possibly with Marika herself?) to steal a fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh
6) Maliketh seals Destined Death within himself so that this never happens again.
7) The Night of Black Knives; Godwyn dies.
8) Marika shatters the Elden Ring.
Therefore, the only way for Ranni to steal a fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh is if Maliketh possessed Destined Death outside of the Elden RIng.
We don't have much information about the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but I posit that she predated Marika, who was her rival. The world isn't big enough for two queens of their eminence, so Marika likely usurped the GEQ. It's possible the GEQ was even the vessel for the Elden Ring before Marika. Although that's conjecture. What isn't conjecture is that Marika - or more accurately Radagon - snuffs out her opposition, like she did with the Fell God and his flame of ruin which has the capability to burn down the Erdtree.
@@trisbane4086 But I mean, the problem is how GEQ had Destined Death on 1)?
The only reasoning that makes sense FOR ME, is that the Elden Ring was once held by the God who was once the Five Fingers (the god who Placidussax was the Elden Lord) with all the Runes.
Then something similar to the Shattering occurred and then GEQ and Marika were chosen as Empyreans.
Then Marika had her Rune (which seems opposite to Death, so I speculate it's Rune of Life) and GEQ had her Rune as well (Rune of Death).
They were "demigods" - that would explain why there's mention of other demigods without souls and how Vyke could be Elden Lord even though he has no hold of the Runes we know - there were other demigods who were killed in times before Marika defeating GEQ and becoming the new god.
They fought against each other for their Runes and Marika won with the help of Maliketh. GEQ probably didn't have a shadowbound beast as we see the Raging Wolf knight being said he wanted to become a shadowbound beast of an Empyrean and he holds a sword similar to the GEQ sword.
So Marika defeated GEQ before she would become a god and they were fighting for their Runes. So Marika is not GEQ in this case, but her sister or something.
@@trisbane4086 I always asked myself how do Iji and Ranni know about the true nature of Blaidd? They must’ve seen it happen and the only other recorded Empyrean with a shadow in history is Marika. Enia mentions “Marika’s trespass” meaning this was the damning move that would’ve activated Maliketh as a sleeper agent for the GW, then it would make sense. Another question I always asked myself is just how Maliketh is able to possess or lock away the Rune of Death? He’s only a shadow bound, not a demigod. The best answer I could come up with is that he sealed Marika inside him, who actually was a vessel. His black blade looks like it’s made from Marika’s torn half of her body, leading up to her eye that I speculate is the origin of the stone covered Beast Eye/Gloam Eye he gives us(Melina’s Gloam eye is revealed to be at the same side of her face). This would also explain the diminishing power of the Godskins since they would’ve received their power from her, the Queen of Death, Godwyn being the “Prince” of death. Her corpse is presumably dead since it’s found impaled with a spear bearing traits similar to the power of Maliketh’s Black Blade and her other half sealed into Maliketh, leaving “The Beast Eye” that writhes being the only piece of her that’s still “alive” and possibly a source of the Godskins power, the other being the Godslayer’s Greatsword since it’s clearly stated and the fragment Ranni stole which could also explain the piece missing from the Black Blade(It has the same brilliance of the black flame and the best explanation for the red hue I could come up with is the red glow from Blaidd’s eyes when he activates his kill switch at the end of Ranni’s questline because she murdered her Two Fingers and she’s in our pocket as a miniature doll when we confront him).
The Gloam Eyed Queen is Rick, Soldier of God after being reborned by Rennala; It may sound contradictory, after all, Rick fights for God and the godskin apostles hunt demigods, but those considered demigods and gods (Marika/Radagon) are actually under the influence of the Greater Will, which is not a god but an outer god, which implies that the god that Rick/Gloam-Eyed Queen serves is the native god of The Lands Between; The Greater Will took control of The Lands Between, so led by Gloam-Eyed Queen/Rick, the godskin apostles hunted the demigods, offspring of Marika, to regain control of The Lands Between, they would eventually kill Marika, but then The Shattering happened and Marika was imprisoned, which implies that The Shattering happened because Marika was afraid of the Gloam Eyed Queen/Rick, she knew she would be imprisioned, but better imprisioned than dead (it worked, because the opening of the game explicity says that nobody knew were Marika was)... Rennala would totally help Gloam-Eyed Queen dethrone Marika and the Greater Will because of the whole Radagon thing.
My man you made me look up who tf Rick, Soldier of God was. what good memelore I've missed.
It seems to me that Elden Ring calls a lot of attention to the idea that gods don't need bodies in order to interact with the world, but they do need bodies to truly change things within it. In that sense, an Empyrean, as a God-Person, would be a god clad in flesh.
Malenia has Miquella's Needle in her body, much in the same way that Millicent has the Unalloyed Gold Needle in hers. These needles don't get rid of the Scarlet Rot, but they suppress it, and the Rot itself is actually the manifestation of an Outer God. They possess an interaction with the supernatural.
The description for the Spectral Steed Whistle states, "A delicate goldwork ring. Can be used as a finger whistle." If you notice its picture, the ring itself is not actually complete, almost as if it was once something straight that was bent into a loop. This special gold ring is given to us by Melina, who is a spirit lacking her burnt body.
In the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, when this golden ring is burnt away, Melina changes.
Perhaps the Gloam Eyed Queen is another Outer God who is suppressed by the whistle itself, and it is tied up in Melina's soul since that's what's left of her.
Of course, the change in her appearance could also signify that she's somehow reclaimed her body. Since, when she's in spirit form her cloudy eye is golden, while her special eye is shut.
This was awesome, dude! Very well done! I really liked the idea of the GEQ being the sword, that was super cool! =D
Cool but not an original theory im sure mad luigi or endymion mentioned it at the start
I'm fascinated by the idea it's the sword.
Great video!!
I sort of think Ranni discarding her flesh was her way of avoiding destiny somehow, like being a living being allows the Outer Gods to influence to her fate. But as for Melina, I think her connection to Marika does seem deeper than a typical daughter, so something like what happened with Malenia and her daughters has always seemed likely to me. But at the same time, the lack of a connection between Radagon and Melina calls that into doubt, because if Marika and Radagon are supposed to have something of a yin/yang relationship, one wonders what that would mean for Melina if she was a piece of Marika.
The red hair ?? That's said to be a trait associated with radagon specifically . I mean outside of the giants only radagons offspring have that red hair . I could be wrong but that would make your theory make alot of sense .
I always thought of Melina as of royalty in a manner similar to Malenia, in that she's a bearer of some powerful but broken instance of strength. She's absolutely fascinating, but I don't see her as Marika or part of her in a literal sense. To me, she has to be bearer of death itself similar to Maliketh's blade, otherwise, she wouldn't be able to burn the Erdtree, as none of our powers could, and we're able to summon blackflame at the time (I'm well aware of it being game mechanics and all, but From soft is very careful in those instances, I think, and it entertains my imagination). Also, her promise to the Tarnished is quite haunting, in that it feels like the firekeeper telling us she'll burn the world. Melina to me can be seen as the Queen, as well as being related to the Nox, since she's quite ethereal. I also thought that she could've been a sister to Marika or something like that, but we don't know much about the past of Marika or even if there was another vessel for the Elden Ring before her. To add to it, the sword could bear the essence of the character but not them entirely, since we take the sword the Elden Beast uses, and Marika's body is still there so that we can repair the runes. So far, I've been looking into this as some substantial evidence. But I could absolutely be wrong.
The whole Marika+Radagon+Melina stuff is probably the most interesting and mysterious aspect of the lore imo, and I'm so curious to see what people discover, or if we'll get dlc that clarifies anything.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's simply taking inspiration from the Christian Trinity. So Melina is essentially the Holy Ghost. Not saying I believe this to be 100% true necessarily, but I saw your comment and I thought it.
Gotta hand it to you. This is the best video on TH-cam on the gloom eyed queen. Very convincing theorys imo.
In Celtic/Gaelic myth. Wolves are symbolic beasts of the Underworld. So is a female riding a horse, supposedly to guide the fallen heroes on battlefields to the afterlife.
Often attended by Ravens...
The Morrigan, Phantom queen. Who's gaze falls upon those destined to die. Who presides over three in one: War, Fate and Death.
Exact same story in Greek myth.
Interestingly, when Romans fought the Celtics, they genuinely feared Celtic magic and druids. This is because they knew all Indo-European religions had common origins and much overlap, so believed that the Celtic gods were one and the same with their own. They believed that the highest of the Celtic gods was simply a Gaelic interpretation of their god Mercury.
If the Goslayers GS was a person at one time, I could def get behind that idea, esp since the god skin swaddling cloth’s item description would still be able to work. Like you said, the Elden Beast did it to Radagon and knowing that’s possible I can’t imagine that happening the very first time when we fight Elden Beast. Awesome vid dude
I believe that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is most likely Melina (and if you’re right about who SHE might be… Wow). Don’t know if you considered taking a look at the Beast Eye we get from Gurranq, but as its description mentions, it trembles when near Deathroot, the description of which tells us that it is a manifestation of Rune of Death, lost and spread across the Lands Between after Godwyn was murdered. What’s more, both the description of the Eye and the image of the Eye itself both confirm that the iris is a “murky violet” that writhes as if it is still alive, a color not dissimilar to the color of Melina’s unsealed eye in the wake of the burning of the Erdtree. And about that seal on her eye… A mark resembling/mirroring it can be seen on the opposite side (left-facing when looking at it) of the Beast Eye relative to Melina’s sealed eye (right-facing when we look at her). And, both seals resemble claw marks (the description of the Eye says as much), which denotes a connection to Maliketh/Gurranq. If Maliketh took the power of Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, perhaps he took possession of it by sealing both of her eyes, taking one for his own use (this could also potentially just be a consequence of taking Death from her somehow; just speculating since I don’t really know what the eye seal did to Melina exactly). On the other hand, it could be that the Beast Eye is actually the physical eye of Marika that she’s missing when we find her in the Erdtree. The Beast Eye states that it is made of stone, which seems to be what Marika’s body is made from now, or something like it. (Could also be the eye belonging to the socket that she has shut when we find her as well, since Melina’s right eye is white after the Erdtree is burned, as if the color has been taken from it. The direction of the claw mark on the Eye in the image may also just be an oversight if it’s supposed to be the left eye, too.)
All this to say, it’s looking to me all the more certainly that Melina (and now, Marika, probably) is the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
While I think the violet connection is very interesting, it should also be noted that Grave Violets...are violet, and are related to death and ghostflame. If there were a more tangible connection as to why Eleonora was called the "Violet" bloody finger, I'd be more comfortable making these kind of connections, but I will admit, though I do remember reading the beast eye and it saying it had a violet pupil, I did forget about that in the context of making this video. Maybe it should've been included. Thanks for the comment
@@LastProtagonist That’s a fair point. I just think it’s made more compelling by the fact the Beast Eye bears a claw mark that looks roughly similar to the seal on Melina’s violet eye. Of course I can’t say it’s necessarily the same kind of mark as the one Melina has, but it looks similar enough that I believe the connection is there.
On a bit of a side note about the violet color, the Beast Eye’s description says that it’s a “murky violet” color. When Melina’s post-Chaos ending model is closely examined (which Zullie the Witch does in her “Elden Ring’s most bizarre and beautiful faces” video), the violet eye is shown to have a cloudy spiral pattern to it. While I know it may be a stretch, perhaps that’s what the Beast Eye’s item description means when it describes the Eye’s color as “murky”? It may be more implausible by the fact that the cloudy spiral look isn’t present in the image of the Beast Eye, as far as I can see. However, the cloudiness of Melina’s eye does make it quite distinct, regardless of it’s color. I believe that’s what the Beast Eye could mean when it describes the color as a “murky violet”, but I’ll admit that it’s a bit of a stretch to assume so just based off of the look of a character model.
@@LastProtagonist By the way, I should’ve said so before, but this was a great video! Your lore content is great stuff.
@@LastProtagonist Been thinking about this topic some more, and while I did have other things I wanted to bring up and theorize about, I forgot that Melina has an interaction with the player character after inheriting the Frenzied Flame. She says that if we intend to become the Lord of Chaos, “…I will kill you, as sure as night follows day.” Dusk/gloam/twilight is the beginning of night… She never explicitly SAYS “Gloam” or “Dusk”, but that’s gotta be more than a coincidence that she promises to kill us like the night (which dusk is the beginning of) kills the daytime.
Excellent video. With respect to demigods being the direct offspring of queen Marika. We know explicitly that Godfrey himself is a demigod. Godrick’s great rune says:
The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage.
So there’s at least one demigod who was not an offspring of queen Marika.
We also know Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni were adopted demigods so they were only Marika’s offspring in a legal sense, not the literal sense. Even if you take the Radagon=Marika thing to have always been true that clearly wasn’t general knowledge and everyone still refers to them as demigods.
As far as the the Gloam Eyed Queen she can be the Norse goddess Nott or Greek goddess Nyx.
I think the location called The Three Sisters at Caria Manor is a reference to the Greek goddess Moira or the Norse deities the Norns.
But I know Miyazaki loves to incorporate Shintoism or Norse Mythology in his games. As well as other religions/mythologies. So I'd go with Norse before the others.
The Erdtree is literally Yggdrasil that exist in the Lands between the Nine Realms.
I also considered Rennala possibly being Chang'e at first. But regardless I thought this post might help you or anyone looking for more clarity on the Gloam Eyed Queen and to shed light on the Norns(the THREE weavers of fate).
Edit: Destined Death to me sounds like time/fate. That's why i thought of The Norns(one of them utilized a needle). Dont forget I mentioned The Three Sisters location.
Guess what?...We have Miquellas needle that can cheat FATE. As well as the Unalloyed Gold Needle that can FORESTALL Rot. Forestall meaning prevent or obstruct (an anticipated event or action) by taking action ahead of TIME.
Rennala is Hera, which we know due to her association with the Cuckoo. This makes Radagon Zeus, Radhan Ares, Ranni Eris and Rykard obviously Hephaestus given the association with Volcanoes. We know Miquella is Dionysus due to his association with the grapevines, hairstyles and large penises depicted on the walls in Elphael. Thus, it is likely that Marika is Demeter, explaining why grain is so prominent near the capital. Demeter was also called "Deo" which means two, but also means fingers, thus explaining why her religion worships the Two Fingers.
All seem to take inspiration from several sources, but I can't pinpoint who Mohg, Morgott and Malenia would be in the Greek pantheon.
Interesting video as always.
Firstly with regard to the identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen I think it is Melina because in addition to everything you brought up we have the Beast-Eye that Gurranq gives to detect Deathroot looks a lot like the eye Melina opens during the Frenzied Flame ending (this is hard to see in the cutscene but if you look at Zullie's video on Melina's model you'll see it clearly). It has also been pointed out that the marking over that eye sort of looks like a beast claw.
Marika having once been the Queen of the Nox I think is very likely not only because of what you mentioned but also because of the Bubble spells used by the Claymen which mentions the Oracle Envoys so I think that Marika became a God in Nokron where we find the Mohgwyn Mausoleum (Claymen Spear also mention them having been in service of "the ancient dynasty") makes Mohg's line "Welcome to the birthplace of our dynasty ring a bit different." (May be the Truth mention at the same time as the Formless Mother.)
We also find one of Radagon's Red Wolves in Nokron, he uses Celestial Dew to cleanse himself which is from the Eternal City and he gives Rennala an Egg that needs Larval Tears from the Eternal City to use properly.
Melina would no longer be an Empyrean as she is *bodiless* remember that Ranni specifically killed her Empyrean flesh to escape the destiny of the Greater Will
I think gloam eyed queen is definitely Marika who is also queen of the nox, and probably the god slayer great sword was made from her.
Melina I’m less certain on but it looks to me like she’s either Marika before she became the vessel of the Elden Ring, or she’s one of or a composite of all of the burned unwanted children in the mausoleums. She specifically says she’s burned, the blade of calling says the user was a “kindling maiden”. Maybe it’s the case that Marika was sending children to the forge of the giants to burn the Erdtree but they all just burned to death instead.
Real good video.
have you guys ever watched the sunset ingame? its beautiful, I like to look out from church of santa and watch the reflection on the sea. This is during dusk, and the colors you see are redish gold transitioning to the darker colors of night.Btw i wonder why the sun looks so drained of power, anyway, the golden gloam you can still see is fading but its quite the sight. Melina is cool i like her rose gold colored hair, like her parents mustve had gold and red hair or something. and the way her eyes transition from a faded gold to that glowing night effect is awesome. Her powers are interesting, like almost one parent could controll black flames and the other holy gold, but jokes on them she got both. Could be unrelated, but why are the crucified people turning into vampire bats, all guilty of something with this eternal darkness spell. And why are they crucified in the shape of of a rune engraved in marikas eyes.
There is nothing crazy about Marika being the gloam eyed queen and it seems pretty obvious to me that Melina is an aspect or creation of Marika. Her references to her mother seemed obvious.
As for Marika being the queen, her relationship with maliketh, destined death, and her tiring of the golden order makes more sense. Consider that Godfrey was a wild barbarian warlord but was recruited abd given a PR makeover by the golden order so he could serve the purpose of winning wars for them as elden lord. Marika could similarly have been recruited and given a new name and identity and image. She had to have been someone beforehand and it's in line with how the golden order worked to recruit existing powers in the lands between for their new order. Marika abd maliketh fought each other over destined death, but the golden order made them work together for a purpose. Marika had no qualms betraying any of them when she was tired of being a puppet. It may even be her alter ego radagon was a result of her housing the elden ring and a threat to her existence. Like jekyll being replaced by Hyde.
I'm no lore hound and don't expect anyone to care but this is some of the most in depth Elden Lore I've listened to
Melina seems to be the most likely candidate for the GEQ.
She recovers her gloam eye after we free the rune of death, promises to deliver us destined death in the ending in which she lives.
I really hope we get future content on the Gloam-Eyed Queen, she's just so interesting to me.
Is it possible the Gloam-Eyed Queen predates the Golden Order as a whole? We're told that Marika fought to establish the Order, and there's a lot of bread crumbs pointing to other (Outer) Gods having been active in the Lands Between. Could be that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was in service to the same Outer God as was the Twin-Bird mother of the Death Birds (possibly a death concept outer god). There was also the scorpion-esque avatar of the God of Rot.
It makes me wonder if Marika and the Gloam-Eyed Queen, being Empyreans, might not have also been twins. One of Marika's earliest feats establishing the Golden Order might thus have been knocking the Gloam-Eyed Queen out of the race to become the "one god".
With Destined Death with Maliketh, and the Godskin Apostles left leaderless, defeating the Fell God and the Fire Giants and all other contenders would have become much easier.
But it's all very difficult to tell, since what Elden Ring needs most of all is a clearly defined timeline.
The golden order was established after the rune of death was shattered. So yes she predates the golden order
Weird note that I noticed: In Farum Azula you can see what looks to be an older version of the Elden Ring symbol, but instead of Radagon's crosshatch backing, seems to have tree roots, or something natural and organic at the bottom. The same symbol can also be found on the Crucible Knights armor. I honestly think that before Marika, the Gloam Eyed Queen was in charge of the Lands Between. Death was still a law of the land, things grew, died, recycled, etc. I think she was overthrown by Marika, and Marika -- knowing that the natural process of things would eventually result in her own death, destroyed it completely. Whatever way, I think the Gloamed Eyed Queen was betrayed.
I think it is one of the most complete videos on the topic, and indeed I agree Marika was the gloam eyed queen, and Melina is a new born of Marika, as Millicent is for Malenia. It is the simplest and pretty interpretation.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen was defeated and put into a sword. This is an amazing theory that I now subscribe to.
Bob the Hollow has gone to town on the 'Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen' theory and pushed it as far as it will go.
The Blade of Calling weapons were probably the weapons that Destined Death fragments were bound to. That’s why they don’t do the dd flame or black flame, it’s not altered…
Melina's dialogue at the Minor Erdtree Church suggests that the Age of the Erdtree began shortly after the war with the giants. It's also easy to assume the Golden Order was formed and Destined Death was confined around this time as well.
So I think it goes:
Age of Crucible -> War with Giants -> Age of Erdtree.
The War with the Giants, along with the War with Ancient Dragons, are the oldest historical events mentioned explicitly in the Age of the Erdtree. Since everything we know about the Gloam-Eyed Queen comes from very out of the way places and no npc even mentions her, we can say she was around during the Age of the Crucible, before the giants or the formation of the Golden Order. This would place her WELL before the emergence of Radagon and the war with Liurnia.
There are many oddities with the timeline, but I don't think this is one of them.
Also, the Nox are clearly an offshoot culture of the Numen. We know this because the bloated ants gorging on corpses down river from the Eternal Cities drop Numen Runes. So the valiant gargoyles are creations of the Numen originally.
That would be cool if the godslayer greatsword was previously the GEQ. That would still work with the gods kin swaddling cloth. Great vid
12:00. The bell dinged right at the perfect time lol
Thanks for this, Protagonist. I always thought the Gloam-Eyed Queen fought against Marika - both being Nox and both being chosen by the Greater Will to start the new age. Then Marika won. So she was an Empyrean but not from Marika’s ilk. Sort of how Placidusax was Elden Lord first. But why he wasn’t an Empyrean?? Different outer god? Can one be Elden Lord but serve a different outer god?
Because, like, Placidusax was the "Godfrey" of whatever god was running things at the time... Or maybe the "Radagon", with the missing heads being his "Marika".
Since the Elden Beast is the Elden Ring and was sent by the Greater Will, I'd say no, the Elden Ring is tied very closely to the Greater Will. It makes sense thematically too, since the Greater Will's thing is precisely imposing itself over the individual wills of everyone and everything, so tying the laws of life and reality with a physical manifestation of these laws is very much a "Greater Will" sort of thing.
Most likely Placidusax was simply a previous Elden Lord, those are not Empyreans, they're the consorts of Empyreans.
@@AlriikRidesAgain that's a good theory. Cause he dead ass awaits the player character in a space that exist outside of time , even outside of farum azula , which appears to be stuck in time itself. But the encounter with the player is him testing if you have to power to truly become a lord maybe?
That's a good question tho, cause it's insinuated with rannis ending that the greater will had no control over the lands between but we don't know if ranni herself is I Control or if that moon itself might be the outter God.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here. Empyreans aren't selected to be Elden Lords, they're selected to be Gods. Marika, the host of the Elden Beast/Greater Will, is a god; not the Elden Lord. Placidusax was an Elden Lord, and his remembrance states he was waiting the return of his god (the role Marika fills to her Elden Lords). Godfrey and Radagon are Elden Lords to their Empyrean-God Marika, just as Placid is the Elden Lord to his unnamed Empyrean-God. Miquella, Melenia, and Ranni are all empyrean candidates to replace Marika as God, not Elden Lord. In Ranni's ending she becomes the new god, with us as her Elden Lord.
It would be so cool to fight the Gloam-Eyed Queen in the DLC. We'd finally get to see who it is
I think the finger slayer blade is a result of the night of black knives, godwyn being the key in this, ranni was behind the assassination of godwyn, she needed him to die in this manner so the finger slayer blade could manifest itself out of death from the half wheel wound of the centipede, ranni casting aside her rune and her flesh husk and taking the form of a doll, all in the plan to recant the greater will and the 2 fingers to usher in change over the lands between.
Always love watching your videos, thanks for continuing with Elden Ring! You completely changed Bloodborne and Souls for me, and I'm excited to see your takes on ER
I think the most likely theory is that GEQ was Marika's rival.Ranni talks about how only she,Miquella and Malenia could claim the title of Empryrean so it was before her,but she says in a way that it seems this was the first time they were considering a sucessor for Marika.
So i believe the gloam eyed queen is very old,before the erdtree when it seemed there were more gods running around given that Godwyn was the first demigod to die.
I can see Marika being the Gloom-eyed Queen as a different title the same way Godfrey & Horah Loux are the same but what if Marika had taken in destined death into herself, lost to her shadow & cursed him w/ destined death the way she cursed the fire giants.Then it could be for this reason that Radagon returns & the 2 fingers unify them into 1 being.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Gloam-Eyed Queen was an aspect of Mericka, like Malina might be an aspect of her. I'm still a believer that Radagon was his own entity before merging with her. Malina was Mericka's agent (kinda like the Monkey King's hair power), so while Mericka remained under close observation, her agent was able to 'finish the job.' Its also likely that if the Golden Order was unstable by the time the tarnished shows up, it might have been even more unstable earlier.
21:26 made me realiseer the game uses separate stories to parallel the more ambiguous thoughts and connections in the game. Similar to fnaf using offshoot story books to bridge gaps in lore
Excited for this, thank you
I have also come across that she may also be the witch that taught Ranni.
I'm coming around on Melina being Marika. Specifically an aspect of Marika.
Marika talks about Radagon as a sort of aspect of herself. Why then could she not have had more aspects? Or created more, as in the case of sealing away part of herself. Maybe the part of herself she sealed away is the part of herself embodied in Melina.
Melina talking about her burned and broken body then could be pointing at Marika's broken body. "Burned" by what appears to be crystallized death impaling her side.
Melina being created and cast off as an aspect of Marika might explain her pink hair. If she was created after Radagon became instantiated, maybe Melina is part Marika and part Radagon. So she wound up with a combination of blonde and red hair which became pink.
Then there's the whole "daughter" issue. Daughter doesn't necessarily mean offspring.
Daughter cells are the result of the division of a single parent cell. Marika being related to the Numen and Nox could mean that she has some capacity to divide herself ala meiosis/mitosis.
When she says she was born at the foot of the Erdtree, she's talking about being split off from Marika/Radagon.
So she could be the Gloam Eyed Queen and Marika at the same time. As her body is a division of Marika and her animating force is an aspect of Marika.
This might even explain why Marika's body is broken. It's not really broken. Part of it was cast off in order to create Melina. Melina then is an agent of Marika's will in the deepest sense.
That said. I think that maybe Melina's time away from Marika has resulted in her developing her own personality a bit. This is a theme which has been explored in practically every piece of media involving clones. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we might be seeing it here.
As a final thought. If this is in fact the case, imagine the consequences for Ziostorm's fairly recent video relating a number of things in Elden Ring to mushrooms.
Marika is, or at least can behave like, some kind of slime mold or maybe a mycelial network.
This could mean that we might not just encounter more unknown children of Marika. We might encounter more Melinas.
I think Melina is to Ranni what Radagon is to Marika (two different personalities that share the same body.)
The main evidence of this is their shared eye tattoo, which all but outright says that they are connected in some way. The second being that ranni and Marika are both empyreans. It is possible that empyreans are/have the ability to split spiritually. In the words of another commenter they are, "spiritual hermaphrodites."
So when ranni killed her own body to start her grand plan, the two split as there is nothing keeping them together any more. All of this being said, it is likely that ranni and Melina are both the gloam eyed queen. As they both seem to have similar goals to her.
The lore in this game is incredible...
Smoughtown sent me. Subbed. I enjoy how you present your research.
Here’s and interesting theory: The Gloam eyed Queen is Melina. She was subsumed by Marika much the same way as Radagon becomes Marika. In an attempt to fulfill her wishes, Marika releases Melina (what’s left of the Gloam eyed queen) to assist the tarnished in becoming lord.
Posting on an old video. Melina is likely the gloam eyed queen. Her body was destroyed when fighting Mal and since death was removed from the order her spirit was essentially reborn at the foot of the erdtree through the queen. Her gloam eye was sealed by the black flame hence the half scorpion mark.
22:57 Still rankles me to this day to know that Filianore was originally going to be Gwyn's wife at some point.
Ok I'm going to say it now. I think Melina is Marikas first born. She then would be a peice of her. Then she would also be part of the elden ring. When the Erdtree want to remove and seal away destined death it would seal away Melina as well which she couldn't do as she was her daughter. So she told malaketh to take her great rune and seal it to protect her. So she hid her and gave her the potion of forgetfulness this is why the other demi gods don't know about her. Also very through video! Thanks for making it!
The GEQ is Marika herself. Or at least, she was once. A goddess devoted to the balance of life and death and the cycle that results. Allied to the Greater Will, but ultimately deceived as to it's purpose and subborned after the sealing of the Rune of Death. The most important bit of lore is the Radagon = Marika bit. Just about everything that the Golden Order attributes to "Marika" is actually the act of Radagon. Because once, Radagon was simply an offshoot of Marika (the same way Millicent is an offshoot/sister/daughter to Malenia). However, as Shabriri will be all to happy to tell you, division leads to distinction. While he began as simply a piece of Marika, at some point he (then still she) became her own being with her own will. And, unlike Marika, she was utterly devoted to The Greater Will. She betrayed her sister/mother/self and used Malekith to seal the Rune of Death, essentially dividing Marika once more and leaving her master of only life (Marika the Eternal). She then led the Golden Host to victory in the war on the Mountaintop, but was possibly cursed by the Fire Giants. Whether by that curse, Marika's influence or some aspect of distinction, transformed into the very male Radagon. Still essentially an aspect of Marika in power, but no longer able to deceive Marika's followers. And no longer able to call all the shots in the Golden Order.
Think about it. Godfrey is sent warring, which suits him fine. But conveniently hides the fact that his wife has been effectively replaced by a doppelganger, and even more so that said double has become a man. Godfrey is then stripped of his grace and dispatched from The Lands Between, so that he can't uncover the truth. At which point Radagon, "summoned" by Marika has himself appointed as her second husband and Elden Lord. Which gives him cover to once again be in charge.
The crux of the game is basically Radagon's grab for power, his attempt to truly usurp Marika's place as the supreme god of The Lands Between ("You have not yet become me."), and Marika's long form plot to undermine both him and The Greater Will. Melina is herself another offshoot of Marika. Her "daughter," if you will. Tasked by her mother with freeing Destined Death and restoring the balance of life and death to the Lands Between.
You can actually think of Shabriri and Melina as similar in many ways. Neither has a true body. Both are representatives of a broken power that wishes to affect an outcome in the great war in the Lands Between. Shabriri serves the Frenzied Flame (and through it effectively the remains of the being once known as the One Great) while Melina is in service to Marika, or more accurately her previous self, the GEQ.
My theory is that Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the reason she lacks a body is because it was killed in her attempt to become a vessel for the Rune of Death, much like Marika was a vessel for the Elden Ring. The marking on her closed eye also looks avian, which ties her to (possibly) the Twinbird, tender of the Ghostflame, which is adjacent to Black Flame in that they're colorless flames which deliver death.
The Velka of Elden Ring
Damn 9 pm I’ll be at work :/ I’ll watch this later though!
The giants found on the thrones are probably the same giant skeletons you see lodged into mountains in various areas.
It frustrates me somewhat that people miss some details when it comes to the GEQ. "Confining Destined Death" in the first description you showed refers to queen Marika plucking the RoD from the Elden Ring which created the Golden Order. It was Marika who did this the first time (she plucked it from the Elden Ring itself in order to remove death from the lands between, and bound it in Maliketh), and the second time (when GEQ was defeated) it was Maliketh. From various item descriptions and dialogue:
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation…
The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death.
The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost.
After a fragment of Death was stolen on that fateful night, Maliketh bound the blade within his own flesh, such that none might ever rob Death again
Thus we have two instances of RoD being "outside" Maliketh, one in which it was inside of the Elden Ring, and thus just a fact of life, it couldn't have been used as such.
And the second, which happened in between the Night of the Black Knives and the Shattering.
Rogier refers to the Night happening long before the Shattering, so we know there was time for her to exist. The RoD was stolen by Ranni, and she used it to kill her own body. After that, whoever the GEQ was likely used it for her own ends, and ended up defeated by Maliketh, which explains how he got the RoD back in the first place *and* how the second sealing happened. A detail to add onto this is the fact that GEQ's followers, the Godskins, appear in every area relevant to the Carian siblings. GEQ's sword lies in Radahn's tower. I do not think that is a coincidence in the slightest. This also goes along with Melina being the GEQ (something I also believe in) because Melina and Ranni know each other.
Given that Godwyn is also said to be the first dead demigod in history, it also wouldn't make sense for Godskins to exist before this event or even needed in a time when death was commonplace.
Ranni did not steal the Rune of Death (or Destined Death) , she stole a fragment of the Rune of Death from Maliketh -- only a fragment. And she used it in a ritual to divest from her body. Only after that did Maliketh seal Destined Death inside himself. The Gloam-Eyed Queen controlled Destined Death in its entirety.
For me, it's very difficult to internalize when exactly all these events took place. We know that the Gloam-Eyed Queen controlled Destined Death; we know that Maliketh defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and took Destined Death from her (or did he even do that?); we know Marika plucked the Rune of Death out of the Elden Ring, and established her Golden Order, without death; except for Maliketh alone, who she needed as a vessel to house Destined Death.
One important distinction to make is that Destined Death is just the finality of death, as in nothing comes after it, you are gone. It is the ability to die permanently. The Rune of Death, specifically, refers to Destined Death's place within the Elden Ring.
The real crux of the timeline for me is this: was Destined Death already in the Elden Ring when the Gloam-Eyed Queen had possession, or "wielded" Destined Death? And if so, how would that work?
Melina leaves so many questions left unanswered. She seems to have not only control over and a connection with the erdtree, Marika, Torrent and the roundtable hold but also one with destined death since she threatens to be it's arbiter against you if you become lord of chaos. I want to say she is part of the ring itself and exists as some kind of unintended(or maybe even intended) side effect of the removal of death from the ring, guiding the player tarnished to restore the ring and bring death back to the lands between, fixing Marika's mistake. Problem is if she *is* death but it was sealed away by maliketh how does she exist? Something to do with Ranni and her stealing it possibly? Or maybe she is what's left after maliketh sealed it away?
I imagine Melina has a similar relationship to Marika in the same way Millicent is related to Melania
Melina is both interesting and confusing. The fact that she is already depicted as burnt and scarred feels related to Ranni, whose physical body is burnt atop the tower where we find it. It could even be that Melina was sacrificed in another attempted Erdtree burning but the process failed and she was left bodiless. We do know that others like Vyke and Bernahl were faced with the choice of burning their Maiden's. Vyke chose not to, but Bernahl's Maiden did so willingly based on his armor description. Whose to say it wasn't Melina? But I'll admit his armor makes the potential timeline of the return of the Tarnished and their quest for Lordship rather confusing.
Gloam eyed Queen is our "Sun's first born" thematically speaking. Melina is 'imprisoned', if you will, by Marika, who is punishing her, likely for the black flame apostasy. She remains "burned and bodiless" because her real self is kept in the Erdtree. Marika uses her, or some form or aspect of her, as some kind of retainer/errand boy. The memory of the Gloam eyed queen is small anyways in the Lands Between, so I feel it isn't farfetched to say the crown had some hand in that. Melina had her status as a demigod revoked and her memory is long scrubbed from the minds of the people.
It’s difficult to say for sure since these are the theories that everyone admits may end up being true. There is just so little information to go on to reach a clear and definitive answer. The gods in this new game appears to take a variety of forms. What’s worse is there are 3 things specifically connected to death the Godskin Apostles’ Black Flame of Death, the Cold Black Flame of the Deathbirds, and event Deathroot because of it being the scattered pieces of the Rune of Death directly. It gets surprisingly complicated the more things you realize are connected in 1 way.
You're right man, Melina IS Marika and one of them is the Gloam Eyed Queen
On one hand it seems like we're missing some crucial information we won't get until a DLC but on the other hand it would be in character for FS to just don't elaborate on that ever lol
In the translated godskin ost video they speak of golden skin. So to me it seems that they went after and skinned demigods from the golden lineage.
I'm oddly thinking the Gloam Eyes Queen was Marika's twin sister. My only proof of such a claim is the fact that twins are a genetic trait as much as anything. Twins are more likely to have twins, than others, and Marika is known to have birthed two sets of twins.
So Merika committed the same kind of sin as Gwyn in DS universe. The unnatural extending of an age.
Melina's knife is also a skinning knife, and bears the same shape as the fingerslayer blade. I suspect there's an element of truth in every connection you laid out. It's possible that the fingerslayer blade IS Melina's body (or the GEQ's body of you don't subscribe to that). Melina being a force in the world that represents death would align with Melina's motivations throughout the game, and it would explain how she is bodiless, if she was defeated by Maliketh and turned into that blade. Also, it would explain why the fingerslayer blade has the power to kill the Two Fingers at all; it was made from the corpse of someone who killed gods and wielded Destined Death.
I think the mask just means the flesh of an innocent albonuric is far less than that of a god who posed a legitimate challenge and could defend itself.
I like to think that ranni and Melina shared the same body. Similar to radagon and marika.
While Melina, once split from ranni, became the gloam eyed queen.
It could explain why Melina is "burned and bodyless", why both have those marks on their eye, what rannis great rune actually is and why ranni mentions only 3 empyrians.
There are several other things that could be explained by that.
I really hope that we get at least something that clarifies something about the lore in the DLC.
I like the idea of Marika having to split herself to separate the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. as the video tells, we only know that she did this separation but none is said about the cost of this action (and as it is not said a lot of people grant it for free).
Maliketh would then defeat this entity : The gloam eyed queen.
But after this the gloam eyed queen is dead/destroyed and thus I don't think she could be Melina.
For Melina, the most reliable info is what she tells us : She is the "daughter" of Marika and Marika has given her a task. As Marika is kept prisoner within the tree, the only way to get out would be a non physical form : Melina. So she creates Melina (or splits herself once more) and Melina, as a pure spirit can leave the tree.
She will then push us to destroy the tree and thus free Marika. A Marika who is willing to die if we believe hewg (he clearly tells Marika told him to forge a weapon able to kill gods)
At the end of the Frenezied flame, Marika former body is no more, but the Rune of Death still exists. Melina is now really free, no more influenced by Marika. She simply claims the Rune of Death and become a NEW gloam eyed queen as we could define the gloam eyed queen as " a part of Marika imbued with the power of the rune of death".
This makes more sense to me than Melina being exactly the same person as the former gloam eyed queen. No use to add, to much connections.
SmoughTown sent me here. You just got a new subscriber my friend :)
I really like the point about people being turned into weapons. My only issue is that Marika/Radogan's body is still there after the fight with the Elden Beast and that we create the Sacred Relic Sword out of the Elden Beast's remembrance, not from anything that we receive from Marika/Radogan.
Perhaps the process is reversible?
I believe Miquella is St. Trina and he/she was previously the gloam eyed queen.
Loved the video, really. You ponder about some of my favourite mysteries in the game. Thank you :)
There is only one thing I dont agree with. I dont think "The Gloom eyed queen is a sword" is entirely its own posibility. I do see the conections you draw and they are great. I like how it comes together with the helix design and the sacred relic sword and knive. But if that is the case, it would only be a result of any of the other 4 possible candidates. As its very clear the sword, if that is the case, used to be a person. A sword can not be defeated by Maliketh for example, and the other 2 pieces (Sacred relic sword and knive) come from bodies. Its a very small detail but I think it matters, as then the question is "who's boddy left behind the sword"?
Cheers!!
This is what I think happened Melina was Marikas daughter before she became a god which is why she was never mentioned. When Marika removed the rune of death Melina became the Gloam-eyed Queen turned on her was killed by Malekith and sealed away with the rune of death. She was then reborn when the rune of death was stolen during the night of the black knives.
I think the GEQ is also the snow crone that was ranni's secret mentor. It would make sense that she told Ranni how to kill her empyrean flesh and not her soul having previously held destined death, potentially the entire elden ring or it's primordial crucible form, and being an empyrean herself. We know placidusax was Elden Lord before the time of the erdtree and GEQ very well could have been his consort and host of the ER/crucible.
So for a general timeline:
Marika shows up, Horah Loux pledges himself to her, and he defeats and then grafts Sarosh, king of beasts to himself and becomes Godfrey the Golden, establishing the Golden Lineage with his marriage to Marrika and beginning the Crucible Era,
they immediately wage war on the fire giants. After winning they go to war with the Gloam Eyed Queen, seals destined death, invoking Radagon into existence, he then leads the war against Rays Lucaria, marries Renalla and the rest is pretty clear from there.
I think there might be some weight in the idea that The Gloam-Eyed Queen was a daughter of Marika as it was implied by the walking mausoleums that Marika had many children other than the ones we meet in-game however if they were weak or to die then they would be seen as sacrifices for the greater will.
To me, it's pretty obvious Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen. With her literally having a gloam eye in the Frenzied Flame ending, her having unique attack animations that resemble the black knife assassins, having red hair, and having the same naming convention of the children of Radagon and Marika. Seems like the player character is her new shadow, as she is technically still and empyrean
The Gloam-Eyed Queen was the title of a possible successor of Queen Marika. Marika had her killed by Maliketh because she was the head of a clan of god killers. Nobles and Apostles.
Perhaps, hers (the Gloam-Eyed Queen’s) was a court composed of those who wanted the gods dead, to destroy Order and establish a new way of things.
Melina means “droplet of honey”, the last drop of honeyed gold of the Erdtree.
She is not an empyrean, perhaps she is just a baby Marika had with the soul of the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
A god is not easily killed, the Flame of Frenzy was sealed away, as the one of Rot. The Gloam-Eyed Queen was perhaps again, sealed away and when Marika actually needed the gods to die, the Greater Will, then she freed her and maybe she lost her memory: “I lost my purpose long ago” Melina says.
She lost her purpose, she was sealed away and all that remained was a simple girl who then, decided to be used as kindling to give the Lands Between another chance, to be repaired.
Her hair doesn’t belong to either of her supposed parents. Melina is not Marika’s daughter in a real sense, she is just brought back from her sealed state as the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
So, Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen and she is back to her original God Slaying Persona the moment a new god arises, the player character if they accept to become a vessel of the Flame of Frenzy.