The Shocking REAL Reason to Trust the Bible! (Greg Koukl / Eric Hovind response)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2023
- The Bible is a collection of books that claim to be the “Word of God.” Would such an EXTRAORDINARY claim have to be backed by EXTRAORDINARY evidence? Do we see any evidence today? Has God Himself actually communicated to mankind through the mouthpiece of human beings? We join Eric Hovind and Greg Koukl for a fascinating look at Scripture as they discuss the Bible and answer the question, “Do we really have the ‘Word of God’?”
Do We Really Have the "Word of God"? | Eric Hovind & Greg Koukl
• Do We Really Have the ...
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The moment I was told that I was asking too many questions about what I thought didn’t make sense in the Bible, as a kid, my journey to unbelief began. Truth should never fear or retreat from inquiry, genuine or not. Religion constantly defaults to faith, which a white flag in the face of skepticism.
Well said!
oh yeah when I was a kid I was always told I would understand when I was dead lolll
Ah, *ECPS YUP!! Ur KeeERECT* !! er,... STAND STRONG!!! If you have *EVIDENCE* U *don;t NEED FAITH* !!
"Faith" is to *BELIEVE* what you *DO NOT* SEE: the *"reward"* of this *"faith"* is
to *"SEE"* what you *BELIEVE.* +(W‽T‽F‽ "DUH")+ - St. Augustine of Hippo
-----------------
+( )+ = EMPHASIS ADDED
‽ = an Interrobang (used for interrogatory exclamations; or, exclamatory interrogatives)
This is exactly what happened to me. My mum couldn't answer my questions, so she gave me a Bible. Then I showed her what it read, and she took it away from me and said, Just have faith!
Even IF questions were somehow "harmful" to truth or time, truth would always be able to answer them honestly. Also, the lack of time would be self-evident to all participants. It would not be conveniently arbitrated by a faction of the participants that obviously just doesn't want to keep thinking about the issues or providing any answers/facts/truths. How do the atheist speakers have lifetimes upon lifetimes to discuss these issues both philosophically and pragmatically, while the various religious bibliolaters do NOT? Why must the religious rely on psychological manipulation such as mantra-hypnosis, boring-reading-hypnosis, fear-induced-hypnosis, non-evidenced belief in order to believe (faith), etc etc.?
If the Bible were from a perfect, Omnipotent god, it could overcome the HIGHEST bar! That apologists keep *lowering* the bar shows how human the book truly is.
I think the point is that God is the entity that matters most and even the very documentation of God's dealings with creation takes second place (however corroborative) to those actual personal dealings.
The moment we stop expecting the bible to be an encyclopedic explanation of God and creation in anything like scientific terms is the moment that God can begin being personal. Then God can guide us back to the bible afterwards and we can get the point.
This is how Christianity witnessed in its early apostolic days. It cared who God was and to that end brought forth many benevolent miracles (and a few disciplinary ones). It studied scriptures too, but this was far from keeping its nose in books all the time.
The Bible HAS overcome the “Highest Bar”. We have made over 100 Archaeological discoveries that corroborate the Bible’s Narrative.
@@mickey9179 archaeology has shown that the narrative of the exodus from Egypt literally did not occur. The Hebrews simply were not enslaved in Egypt at the time claimed. Geology has shown that a global flood never happened and is impossible. A paltry 100 discoveries is the equivalent of discovering the United States and claiming that the Marvel Comics universe is real, because the bulk of stories occur there.
@@mickey9179 what about the ones that are explicitly shown to be wrong? Such as the one above mentioned by Vishanti?
@@SeekingTheLoveThatGodMeans7648 so..stop expecting the bible to be realistic and then we can all make believe it's true?
That's what you're saying, right?
Apologist at 2:36 "I just sidestep the whole thing."
Skeptic: Yes, yes you do.
& Everything else they twist.
Easy to sidestep if you lower the bar
Koukl always has the best Freudian slips. I remember one time he said he likes to 'deflect' when talking about evidence for God.
Like a used car salesman leaning against the door that pops open by itself.
Fact: If you have to believe the conclusion before you can accept the evidence then it’s not evidence. You’re just rationalizing your conclusion.
Your thinking is easy to understand concerning the bible. Most people do not know God nor do they want too. Jesus said that the world hates him and would hate his followers. The Bible was not written for the world but only for those who will believe on Him and believe on the bible by faith to learn about God and what God reveals about man, how He wants his followers to live and to grow and mature. People who try to read and discern its teachings without coming to Christ can never understand and follow its teachings. They love their sinful ways and do not want to yield their life to God. The majority of the world hates God and christianity and the bible. The world is following the ways of the devil and this present world will go the way the bible says it will. Sin is engulfed the people and they are doing their best to get rid of God by its words and actions and their will be persecution coming to all believes. They will also try to remove God's word or promote the water down versions to get the truth from people. This present government that we have is promoting every way away from God and law and order and praising the lawless and sexually perverted. God will allow so much and some individuals will be taken out by God and soon Jesus will take his people out of this crooked world and then you will experience what a world without God will be like. Then in a short time later every person will knell before Jesus because He will be their judge at the judgement to come. Every person will then believe but those who rejected God while they lived will spent an eternity in the lake of fire. You cannot prevent what God has declared so your unbelieving thinking will nit save you nut only make matters worst for you when you die. Remember, you chose the way you live and believe, fueled and shaped by your rejection of the only person who could forgive you and offer you eternal life.
@user-yr3ty6je7g Small tip: If you want people to listen, don't preach at them. Try having a conversation.
No one who disagrees with your particular version of religion is going to be convinced by throwing out buzzwords in a sermon.
@@user-yr3ty6je7gif the world is crooked that’s how your god intended it to be, remember you say it’s designed. You say that people hate god and Christianity, as if somehow us fighting the claim and trying to get rid of it would make it any less true if it were true. The simple reasoning is that there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that there even is a god, much less to conclude that the god of Christianity exists. Personal experiences are bad because there is no way for anyone else to evaluate your claim, I’ve had many experiences where I thought “wow that’s magical” only to find out there’s a perfectly natural explanation. So maybe you had an experience with god and it makes you believe, that’s great, but what about everyone else?
It may be the case that you prayed for rain and your prayers were answered, or maybe it just rains from time to time. What is the method we use to accurately be able to tell the difference? Nobody hates god, if anybody seems that way it’s because they were lied to about his existence and his character
@@user-yr3ty6je7gI live a good life with good friends and we all love eachother. No god needed. Being a good Christian has nothing to do with love. It's all about believing in Jesus. That's it.
@@user-yr3ty6je7gsince God predestined people to believe in him, so is not the fault of unbelievers to unbelieve.
Also, how is "people will hate his followers" claim true? Christians have hated everyone else for a 1500 years at minimum. Including non believers and people from other religions.
As a child brought up in a very religious household, I just assumed that there was irrefutable proof of the historicity of the bible. All the people I looked up to in my life believed, and they were intelligent grown ups. It confused me how other religions could exist in defiance of this mountain of evidence. I was shocked on discovering all the evidence was theological word games and a smattering of documentary evidence.
Yes, me too. The power of childhood indoctrination is immense. Thankfully, I woke up from those false beliefs many years ago, and life has been so much better than holding crazy beliefs.
I was in the same boat, and so was shocked at how weak the evidence and rational really is...and I've been studying harder than I ever did while I was a believer, ever since.
Get ready for:
"You were never a reeeaaall christian"
"The proof is in the presence of the spooky holy ghost in your heart. First you must believe that you believe that you believe. Then you will believe"
"I would urge you to reeealllly open your heart to jesus. You obvious didn't, god isn't a vending machine you know!"
*glad to "hear" IT!!!!!*
Ibid. *SEE ECPS above
40,000 to 50,000 Religiousgroups Can't *ALL BE the ONE "True CHURCHES"* ...
............................... *BUT THEY can *ALL BE WRONG*
godless blessings to you!! (Remember when you give a godless blessing...
... *THERE are NO strings attached!!)* !!
Hehe. Don't it just suck when you realise all those people you trusted for years were just brainwashing you. Makes you feel so good don't it!
I've always loved the 'bible is a coherent story' argument. Yeah, after we excluded all these books writings and stories that disagreed with the others, then what remains all agrees! It's a miracle!
And it STILL is full of contradictions, so they didn’t even do a good job.
Yeah and the story where god told Balem not to curse Israel but then to curse Israel but then sent an angel to kill him for going to curse Israel and then having a donkey tell Balem about the angel so Balem went home but then god told Balem to go curse Israel but then didn't let him curse Israel.
Makes sense right?
@@Dock284Yes. It makes perfect sense for a schizophrenic mind.
@@katarinatibai8396I often think some Bible writers might have had conditions like this, there’s some absolutely insane stuff in there
I just love that the Low Bar Bill clip comes up in every video... sooooo appropriate it's painful.
And yet funny every damn time. Doesn't get old.
Boy, every time we see Low Bar Bill, I start giggling. He really blew the leg off of his credibility with that one statement, innit?
What credibility?
Billy Craig, living proof that they'll just give anyone a doctorate.
@@tjenadonn6158😂 "...and I said yes,god loves li'l Billy Craig"
- Lil Billy Craig
It baffles me that educated Christians, dedicated to apologetics, can claim that prophecy confirms Christianity. Studying Biblical prophecy is one of the primary causes of my _deconversion._ Every time I looked into prophecy as a Christian, the cognitive dissonance felt like a jack-hammer on my brain.
You probably didn’t have an incentive to decide that prophecy confirms Christianity. Apologists may have a financial benefit, or a cultural influence. It’s hard to have an opinion that undermines your job or position.
Sunk cost.
Originally I thought prophecy was a strong piece of evidence until you actually READ the prophecies and realized none of them in the New Testament are genuine. It's all made up.
Biblical prophecies are like Nostradamus prophesies. They can both be twisted into anything
@@undrwatropium3724 Well, the _destruction of Tyre_ one seems fairly solid in that respect. Of course, that means we know it failed.
Back in my teen years in the 90s I asked my youth pastor tough questions when I was doubting my faith. Eventually he gave up and told me to only read the Bible, and nothing else, And eventually I'll believe what the Bible says. Lol OK dude.
If you are an atheist you should be doubting your atheism and reject it outright.
Worst advice ever. Reading the Bible is the biggest route out of the Church. Whenever the answer is "read the Bible" or "go to seminary and learn about it* then you're setting them up to fail and leave the Church.
The road to atheism is littered with Bibles
@@TheMahayanist How would they know? They haven't done it themselves. (Usually.)
I was born in 1953 as the son of an anti-theïstic father and a atheïstic mother. I didn't even know what a bible was till I was 10-12 YO. Later my older sister married a moderate christian.
After my divorce I visited them more often and found out that my niece is close to extremist in her christianity. I watched several atheïst channels who explained the bible for atheïsts. After reading Exodus I realised what a lucky guy I was growing up as an atheïst.
Thanks for all your work, Paul. As a former Christian who studied for the ministry, I so much appreciate your precise well stated rebuttals. You are a breath of fresh air. You're the best. I love it when you play Craigs "one chance in a million" clip. I laugh out loud. I bet he wishes he never said it. Now he has to own it. Play it every chance you can . I love it.
Pascal's Wager is worsened exponentially into Perterson's Waffle (or what better w-word you can think of).
As very lax german catholic, I never thought much about that, but now that I learned that already Martin Luther said the true faith needs no evidence, and US christians openly saying it is better to believe without evidence (probably best to believe AGAINST the evidence) it is pretty much over for me.
It is pretty clear, there is an industry that sells its product, and that his warm gut feelings and laziness is virtue.
Believe that what I say is the irrefutable truth, then you are in possession of the truth. You OWN it, no one else has it. No need to know what it is you have.
The perfect word of the perfect God does its work in miraculous ways. Your faulty own words just spoil this perfection. No need to think what it means, no need to find arguments. Just blurt out Bible quotes, that is the best.
Is it not great to be told that you are perfect when you do not think anymore?
And of course for the warm gut feeling it is also good to claim all is bad, all is horrible - but when you follow the slogan (that the cult leader tells you), then all is perfect, you are saved, you have booked your place in Heaven, which is like life on earth, but ALWAYS happy. Everything happens as here, but all is good, You will meet all the people you love and want to be with, none of them will be in Hell - or you do not care about those.
Because you own the truth, you are always right. Only your way is the right way, all others are wrong. You are Chosen by an omniscient omnipotent entitiy, the whole universe was created with the SOLE purpose to house YOU, the entity is obsessed by you, watches you 24/7, reads your every thought, even in your sleep - you MUST be something extraordinary, the closest to divininity (you are made in the divine entity's image) you can be on this world as God is outside of space and time.
So your judgement is the best jusdgement on earth, guided by the perfect God, so infallible as he is, you have all right to feel superior over anybody because of that backing.
No need to do anything, you are the best you can get, and the world and your life is the best it can get.
So it is OK when you are ruthlessly enriching yourself and treat people like sh*t, it is OK for God, so it is OK for man.
But with the same approach it is also so that you are complacent with how it is, do not despair on things that simply went bad, where without your guilt it really comes down on you. No problem, that is God's will, and for that you will be rewarded with eternal happiness in Heaven.
As long as you stay within it, the circular logic is self-contained and compelling, keeps itself alive.
It is all really easy. You get a real reward for the total submission - total vanity.
The funniest thing is that the more abstruse the slogan, the bette it is in principle. The leap into faith is bigger, but if you find enough willing to do it, it has only advantages. The binding to the product is only closer, the withdrawal from reality, from other sources of information is only more extreme.
This believing in a slogan as irrefutable truth is for me the core functionality of a cult. Way more at the bottom than a cult leader.
With that flat earth is a cult, Trumpism is a cult, climate change denial is a cult, more guns make us safer is a cult, fascism is a cult, christian creationism is a cult - and even the ultra fans of a sports club that rather beat up the other fans than admitting their club is not the best are a cult.
Does that make halfway sense? I think I am pretty far down at the core, the root reason why people believe. Or where do you think I am wrong? Where have I jumped into self-delusion, self-complacency (thinking my babble makes sense)?
I’m feeling a Dumb and Dumber moment coming on🤔🤔🤣🤣
@@Larry30102 Yep. Any time you get two apologists together pretending they have rational evidential justification for make believe.. two clowns.
The other, rather chilling, clip from WLC, shows him talking about the Israelites being commanded to murder the Canaanite children. He actually says that this was "In fact, the kindest thing for them, in that they would go straight to heaven. This would be unlikely had they grown up to become adults." Putting aside the fact that this is not consistent with Old Testament theology regarding the afterlife, we have to wonder how far WLC is willing to go with this perverse notion. Does he think that the children in Muslim countries would be better off slaughtered, or the babies of atheist parents should be culled? This is the horrifying, yet logical extension, to what he said. Whatever, just don't ever accept his offer to babysit your child!
It's weird that none of them seem to grasp that "The Bible is the literal Word of God" _as an argument for the existence of God_ is a circular argument. Like, if your argument for God is "Look at this book, God wrote it" then all you're doing is begging the question. That's a problem long before you even get to the content of the book being contradictory, and yet neither of them recognises that their instinctive go-to is fallacious. So it's kinda sad that the only thing that apparently will get them off that fallacy is "Well, it complicates things too much for me if I say that".
Also Eric busting out Romans 1 towards the end as an arse-cover for when the very bad apologetics they've laid out fail to be convincing really shows how little he has - _the standard that Paul laid out in Romans 1 was insufficient to convince Paul himself to convert._ Romans 1 is demonstrably disingenuous just within the context of that one author, let alone applied elsewhere.
My response to a "look at the trees!" is "That proves I am God. What, do you think nobody made the trees grow? Someone did. I am someone, therefore I made the trees.".
Oddly though the argument is the same as theirs, they don't accept me as God. Blasphhemers. They merely want to be their own God!
I find it amusing how many of Greg's points for the validity of Christianity can also be applied to virtually every other religion in history. Yet somehow I doubt that he'd find his own points convincing if they were applied to those other religions. 🤔
And to every other comic book hero
It should have been called ‘The Babble’ and the first four words should be ‘once upon a time….’ 😳
The first chapter should be;
"The characters and events portrayed in this book are completely fictional and any reference to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental"
Douglas Adams.
@@sulas548 or better still…
“Religion is the venereal disease of mankind.”
Henri de Montherlant
The first words should have been "WARNING, restricted audiences, 18+ ONLY"
From Red Dwarf
Good evening. Here is the news on Friday, the 27th of Geldof. Archaeologists near Mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is presently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitious and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental." The page has been universally condemned by church leaders.
And it came to pass.
Expecting the world of a perfect God to be perfectly written is too high a bar? Okay then. Apparently school teachers have a higher expectation of their students than Koukl has of God.
Of course they do, unlike God, students exist.
Students don’t have the luxury of insisting that contradictions/vagueness is only there to test your faith in their abilities.
The image of a kid trying to pull that off in a school assignment is hilarious ;D
Yeah for teachers, if you want well indoctrinated kids you have to go to a private or home education, that's where the undereducated & easily influenced by conspiracies basically come from.
Greg is now the second member of the Low Bar Club.
It’s so funny how I’m agreeing with what Koukl says for the first five minutes or so… yet he somehow mangles the evidence into the conclusion that the Bible is divine. Faith is a hell of a drug.
FAITH IS ALSO .... * HYPNOTIC !* Whenyou talk to people about religion and they make excuses, cannot explain conflicting statements, are unable to explain a simple contradiction in their argument; THEN, then you can tell at least religiously speaking if they claim to be a Christian; before you politely leave just explain to them they are a victim of hypno Christianity! Don't try to argue with them, it's probably too late!
OF course, like Greg, I don't bother with complications, I just go to the core, whether God exists, and God doesn't exist, so can't have a son, can't inspire, let alone WRITE, a book. So the bible is false.
For some reason Greg wouldn't accept that.
"You don't need extraordinary evidence. You need adequate evidence". Mmm... I wonder what kind of evidence would be adequate for an extraordinary claim... Gee... Let me think... I got it! Extraordinary evidence! 😂😂😂
I'll accept I need adequate evidence, but I get to decide what is or isn't adequate to convince me.
Yes, "extraordinary" like independent double-blind replicated studies that are reproducible by anyone regardless of prior belief. Since most people believe that miracles still occur today, all they'd need is an objective criteria for miracles and a hypothesis about what religious practice is related.
@@exceptionallyaverage3075 Yeah. The problem with the word "adequate" is that it's not an absolute. Something is adequate TO something else. Ergo, if that "something else" is an EXTRAORDINARY claim, he who makes the claim will necessarily need an EXTRAORDINARY evidence. It's really simple. So saying "not extraordinary, but adequate" is just another sophism to reject simple logic 🙂
@@wolfeddie That's not adequate to convince me.
@@exceptionallyaverage3075 😂
I don’t understand how Eric can say atheist don’t accept evidence when his whole young earth creationist view is ignoring evidence.
Atheists and other not-believers of 1 partucular thing that is culturally founded can't explain their motivation for it if there's nothing else they believe instead.
Anti-religion is anti-determinism are anti-intellectual practices. This guy is just a easy target for the score...
That's easy to explain: stop thinking that this is about truth or science. It is not. This debate is a political debate about power, ethics and order in society. This is about where the money goes,especially in mega polarized USA. Don't ever think these debates are about truth for these churches. That is the distraction.
$
It’s sad that they want those things so badly they will publicly claim the things they claim about the universe with zero shame or embarrassment
Is this Eric Trump?
I'm not broken and don't feel broken. I have my flaws but I live the best and most honest life I can.
I've done it for 49 yrs without any religion.
I dont fear anyone or thing except myself.
Were I to ask you have you ever lied? Ever used God's name in vain? Ever coveted (wanted something that belonged to someone else)? Ever stolen anything? Ever looked at someone who is not your spouse with lust in your heart?--how would you answer?
I have to answer those questions with a resounding 'YES.' My conscience tells me that I have done those things. God calls these things sin--the breaking of his law, and the judgment for sin is death. All of mankind has the same problem: For all have sinned: and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23); we all face judgment as a result: For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23b).
God loves us and would rescue us from his own wrath by giving his Son, Jesus Christ, to be our Savior. Jesus bore our sins in his own body upon the tree that we might be forgiven (see 1 Peter 2:24). He died, was buried, and rose again the third day (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). We must trust in Jesus and the work that he did to satisfy God's justice on our behalf in order to be saved. John 3:16 says, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To be broken is to be a sinner; all men are found to be so. Agree with God in his word and your own conscience that you are a sinner, and turn to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins which only he can provide (see Acts 4:12).
I hear you, OP. The only time I ever felt "broken" was when I was a believer and thought that even the slightest negative/anti-social/un-godly thought meant I was a worthless evil wretch and that I had to beg for forgiveness that I "didn't deserve". I was a nervous, anxious self-hating wreck despite being an over-the-top goody-two-shoes kid.
Now that I'm out of religion, I don't feel broken. I feel human. I'm imperfect, and that's ok, as long as I'm trying my best to make the world around me a better place. There's nothing to be ashamed of, as long as I keep trying my best, and make up for any harm I do.
@@sm8johnthreesixteen do you think God is omniscient?
@@sm8johnthreesixteenthere isn't any reason to think that sin is a real thing. It is just a word glommed on to things that people do, some of which are actually bad, for the purpose of trying to add some sort of significance to doing something wrong beyond the fact that doing the wrong thing doesn't align with reality.
I just don't understand how they can't see when they're begging the question or special pleading. They know these concepts but, can't apply it to their own arguments and thinking...
It's a real shame our brains were jury rigged by evolution... I often wonder what our thousand years from now descendants will look back at us and think this about what we think now.
"The only possible reason you are not convinced by my arguments is that something's wrong with you" is such an arrogant and unproductive position.
"Not sure I would've worded the questions that way" might be the most honest thing Eric has ever said in his life. They're neither self-serving nor leading questions and they were clearly written by someone with measurable amounts of intelligence. It's easy to see how none of those criteria match Eric.
Of course, like with any honest thing to come from a _Hovind,_ it's accidental and unintentionally honest, because if anything is synonymous with that family, it's _irredeemable criminal beyond accepted human limitation_ but also 'dishonest' as well.
As the meme goes, "Harsh but fair!"
TBF, I don't think Eric has actually done anything criminal. I think he learned from his dad's mistakes and is careful to stay on the right side of the law (and pay his taxes). Does that make him a good and honest person? Duck no. He will happily manipulate ppl every way he can until he gets to claim the victory - legally ofc, which unfortunately does leave a lot of options still on the table.
@@SadisticSenpai61 There's a very wide gap between "not a criminal" and "not convicted". Eric is absolutely a fraud, and he's only got his little con going because his dear old dad shifted that property to him before he went to jail to try to hide it from being seized with everyone else, something that really never should've been allowed to take place.
No, they're both criminals. Eric's just not smart enough to be as big league as his estranged mental defective. He's running games of Find The Lady on street corners while his dad was kidnapping children and beating up his wallet-wives. Eric's just not worth the time to jail; if he went, every other church owner would have to join him, and as desirable as that outcome would be, the USA isn't smart enough to do that.
That "low bar" Bill clip will NEVER get old for me.
😅
So good
Where was it?
Maybe I'm an outlier here but I was die hard all in it for Jesus for roughly 20 years. In that time in church I can't remember seeing or hearing ANYONE who came to believe due to evidence. Not a single instance. There was absolutely zero critical thought for 99% of the people who decided to accept christ. Myself included. I took it all on face value and that the people around me who loved me so much (and I them) wouldn't and couldn't be lying to me or telling me something they themselves had never double checked and given scrutiny. Like Paul my heart broke when I started learning how things really are. Especially when I started encountering all of the dishonest cringe worthy apologetics (I'm looking at your dad as exhibit A Eric) proffered by so many.
I don't think that's unusual, probably more the norm. If you're like me it was just how I was brought up (that and being told 'you need to keep the faith' ) and when you seriously start questioning it all falls apart.
I'm imagining a scene in a library. All around, wall to wall, is legendary literature seeking to place the identity and values of a particular people in narrative context. You walk past the Iliad and the Odyssey. A hum begins to fill the silence, which builds into a drone. Taking a moment to listen, you hear the chorus of thousands of oral traditions filling the air. A whisper gallery of tales given around campfires to the beat of drums swirls around you. You walk past the Bhagavad Gita, the writings of Confucius, the Quran, the writings of Zoroaster, and a thousand nameless more...
Just when you're wondering at how remarkable it is that humans always seek to place themselves and what is important to them in narrative context... you're pondering the timeless power of story that transcends time and culture, a bull in the china shop that is Greg Koukl bursts into the room, races straight toward the Bible sitting on the floor and exclaims suddenly:
Oh my God it's a miracle! How could a unique book like this possibly exist and survive to reach us!?
I never really believed in a God, but I remember sort of having a feeling that I 'wanted' to believe in something greater in my late teens. When I started actually investigating in my early twenties I remember feeling a bit scared to actually read the Bible because I'd heard of the transformative experiences people described, and I didn't want to become one of those crazy religious people. But I eventually realised that this was a cowardly approach if I wanted to actually know the truth, so I started reading it. It'd didn't take long for me to be left with a sense of 'this is it?' as the OT was clearly just a mythologised history of the Hebrew people from a nomadic tribe up to being a full kingdom.
I didn't and still don't understand what people see in the book that leaves them thinking it is some supernatural message.
I'm right there with you.
I suspect several of them don't read it at all, some of them "read" it, they will see the meaning they want it to say rather than the one that is written down on it's pages, lastly, there is a few who will read it, but will either willingly or unconsciously ignore the parts that doesn't work for them.
I can't think of how one can end with the answer "God is real" when reading those writings.
I grew up in fundamentalist christianity and never felt any sort of power in the bible. Sometimes nice words that I tried to encourage myself with, sure.
But of course that didn't jive with the narrative about the word of god being powerful and living, so I didn't even admit to myself for the longest time that it had always felt lifeless.
i invited jesus into my heart as a kid. i have it in writing. i wonder why he never moved in...
My deconversion journey began as a teenager and member of the World Wide Church of God cult.
I asked my father why would primitive peoples who never heard of god have to hell he replied that they would be resurected and be given the choice of believing or dying again.
I found this ridiculous. I also refused to believe in original sin. No culture in modern times holds the child responsible for the crimes of a parent. I then progressed to beliving that sin is not a real thing.
It still took me years to escape the religious ideas i was taught.
10 years later, i am a full unabashed atheist and i only make one claim, the god described in the bible is a monster and cannot exist as depicted.
Paulogia has been a huge part of my complete apostacy! Thank you!
So all the people who didn't know about Jesus were resurrected after Jesus died?
Kind of devalues the whole concept of resurrections, doesn't it? God's just handing out rebirths these days apparently.
"the god described in the bible is a monster [...]" --- I said this exact thing to my very religious aunt and got the biggest :O face. IMO, Christianity would have been an easier sell if they had written it more like 'we're under new management.' Jesus came along & said, God went *a bit* overboard so I convinced him to take a step back and let me run the show, so now we don't have to do all that icky genocide, slavery, mutilation things. Y'know, like how they convinced the gentile men that they didn't have to cut off their delicate bits and Christians dont have to keep kosher. To which she replied, "I know God is real because I heard his voice when I was 3." And.. that's that. There's the whole argument in a nutshell. Who am I to disagree with something you imagined when you were 3?
Sin is a real thing; it is just the length of the line opposite the angle divided by the hypotenuse.
I wonder, how they explain, why something like the story of the tower of babel is not "recorded" in every culture....not even in just "one" not directly influenced, remote culture.
It's also directly in conflict with everything we know about the development of languages over time so there's that too. 😂
It's also directly in conflict with everything we know. Full stop. That's the Bible in a nutshell.
There is one common idea that pops up, not in every culture, but in many of them, and that is that for whatever reason, people split up and lived in different places, and by the time they met again, they spoke different languages. That is, opposite to the biblical story, the dispersion was the cause of the languages, the languages were not the cause of the dispersion. But even where the languages were the cause of the diversion, the causes for the different languages were radically different, such as eating hummingbird eggs.
@@KaiHenningsenWhat's this about hummingbird eggs?
"If there's one chance in a million that people get tortured forever, sign me up! I sooo want to believe that!"
-definitely not a psychopath
If there is a 1 in a million chance that it's correct, it's worth believing.
Thank you for helping me confirm that my .............believing that there actually is A Galaxy Far, Far Away and Star Wars does actually exist 🙃
Star Wars has a 1 in a million chance, Christianity has not a chance.
There is a better than one chance in a million that the Bible is incorrect, but let's all ignore that! 😅
@RocketboyX .....as told unto me by the Prophet Han el Solo.....
Never tell me the Odds!!!
May all the Force be upon us✊️
Only the stories told before Disney took over Lucasfilm reflect the real history of the Star Wars galaxy! There's not a one-in-a-trillion chance that the post-Disney Star Wars chronology is the real thing! I mean, if I can't believe in Jaxxon, the green, humanoid, carnivorous rabbit introduced in the Marvel Comics series in the 1970s, I can't believe in anything!
@Mike McKean ....ahhh an oldest testimony padawan!
Good, good let the true force flow through you it must....✊️
The fact that every major religion has a holy book from their god says it all doesn't it?
True, and you can add that globally, Christianity accepts several “Bibles”. Oddly, that’s something none of these apologists mention. “The Bible” in their view is the one they use, and they generally ignore the fact that other Christian traditions have different collections of scripture.
it's all about beliefs in this case
God sacrificed himself to himself in order to save us from himself, after getting Satan's approval of the transaction.
sounds legit
🤤
What's this about getting Satan's approval?
It’s always fun watching Greg try to make a case for anything!
It's interesting listening to Koukl's explanations and just hearing all the stuck points my therapist has been working with me to recognize and work my way through. "I am a bad person." "I'm not worthy of..." "I'm evil." "It's my fault." "There's something wrong with me."
He's constantly amazed when I tell him that I did have those thoughts because that's what the version of Christianity I grew up in teaches is true of everyone. Original Sin is one hell of a toxic theology.
The argument is like people who want you to watch a TV show that they love, but they have to admit the first few episodes are not very good. That’s fine for a TV show because the episodes are often distinct and may not contribute to a long story arc. It doesn’t work with a book that is supposed to be the unified message of a god.
I was asked by a pastor, “What gives you the right to question God?” Very much a “How dare you!?” Statement. Pretty much cemented my opinion that people believe in the fantasy simply because they were told to and want to. No critical thinking applied. All of the apologist arguments end up the same way. No evidence, no good reason, just do what you are told.
Best answer to this is: "I'm questioning you. You are not god."
Ask them who are they to defend God?😂
"They probably believe in it for a good reason they haven't thought about."
...wow...
Because as we all know, good ideas come from never critically thinking about a thing.
Is it me, or has your avatar been hitting the gym lately?
This is a really good video, Paul. Man, your scripted content is some of the best counter-apologetics on the internet (good graphics too - it really helps maintain interest). Keep up the terrific work.
thank you!
I want them to explain all those who deconverted because of the bible.
"They didn't believe without good evidence hard enough." ~ bibliolatrists of ANY religion.
I guess they just weren't True Christians 😀
How is 'a man writes that a prophecy from a revered story (which he knows well) happens in his life' good evidence? There is such an obvious flaw in this argument. I know Paul mentions this, but it is such a massive problem that I think it just needs to be constantly repeated.
I like these episodes 1000x better than the live
Same! I love Paul, but his liveshows aren't doing it for me. I'm very glad he does the scripted ones too still.
@@roeliethegoat Also same. 🙂
“Lower the bar” the only way to remain a believer.
The gaps get smaller and the bar gets lower.
The line of reasonable belief has been crossed long ago.
Wow... Paul, I have never heard anyone describe Greg Koukls approach to apologetics so succinctly before: "Apparently Greg can define himself into being correct." More than any other apologist I've ever heard, GK's Tactic (pun absolutely intended) is to play word games with his interlocutor... or rather, his imagined interlocutor. Come to think of it, I've never seen him interact with a non-Christian. I guess it's really easy to sell yourself as a confident debater if you can make your opponent as easily convinced as you want.
You should listen to his radio show and call in and make him look like a fool if you can.
@@Justas399He accomplishes that very nicely by himself.
@@Justas399 what a waste of time. Hopping on here to promote Low Bar Koukl radio show. How sad.
@@JosephKano Why don't you call his show and make a fool of him?
Kookyl never seemed like a serious apologist to me, so I've sort of always had that sentiment.
My former GF was a God Believing Christian (her father was a Presbyterian minister) and one year for my birthday she gave me a bible and insisted that I read it. I tried, I really did. But after the first few books which I already was vaguely familiar with via pop culture it just became a bunch of words. I "read" it but absorbed nothing and eventually gave up. When she first gave it to me we read the Song of Solomon aloud together at her insistence. I didn't even comprehend that it was supposed to be erotic.
She had given me a Messianic version of the bible because my father came from a Jewish background and had been raised Jewish so she thought it would be a better fit for me. But I had not been raised Jewish or much of anything else. She just couldn't fathom someone who basically had no religious upbringing at all. The extent of my Jewishness started and ended with Hanukah.
Things must have been weird and awkward at time!
@@Mangaka-ml6xo At all times. I was young and dumb (now I'm old and dumb) and she was emotionally manipulative if not abusive.
@@jb888888888 Oh, that sucks, sorry to hear that. Hopefully you found the right one for you now, and if not, good luck! 👍👍
I'm genuinely sorry it was a negative time in your life, but the thought of some teenagers awkwardly reading Song of Solomon, as if it were erotica, is fucking hilarious.
@@mattscorscer3448 I was in my early or mid 20s at the time, she was...older than that. Sorry to burst your bubble.
I don't think Greg understands just how wholly unconvincing his propositions are. Or maybe he does and the whole point is to comfort the believer. This isn't me rejecting a mountain of evidence because I'm dead set against it. This evidence is just simply inadequate. It's not only not a slam dunk it's a half-hearted, failed free-throw attempt. I have a hard time believing how anyone can be convinced by this unless the person presenting it has willfully left out information in order to make the case stronger
“…comfort the believer.” Ding ding ding! That’s it in a nutshell. The goal of apologetics isn’t recruiting. It’s retention.
He doesn't care, it's only about reassuring his flock 🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑
The letters of Paul are the literal words of Paul. QED
(edit: most of them, except for the ones that are attributed to Paul but written by other people)
I find funny that some of the 'letters' of paul were not written by paul, almost as funny as some of the 'eyewitness' testimonies we have of that time were not given by eyewitness.
@@Julian0101 I always wondered who witnessed Jesus talking to God on the cross, or during his forty days in the wilderness, or any other time he was supposed to be alone. How can you have an eyewitness report when are no eyewitnesses?
@@mikemckean1005 or who witnessed the virgin birth? Or even circulated the story. Let’s admit that the events took place as described and the holy spirit impregnated Mary. Still, are we supposed to believe that Mary (or Joseph) told their friends and neighbors that Jesus wasn’t Joseph’s son? Idk if I had bragged about my child being fathered by god when cheating was a stoning offense.
@@pansepot1490 don't forget about that Roman governor wasn't alive during Jesus supposed time on earth.
It started out so well... and then it turned into the typical apologetic, "What we need isn't to provide evidence. What we need is to redefine what 'evidence' means."
Those look like Dead Sea Scrolls fragments in the animated background behind @Paulogia.
When you are me, you start to see Dead Sea Scrolls fragments everywhere.
Ohh. You're THAT Kipp Davis. 🙂
Just got out of the shower. Talk about great timing. These are the only kinds of clowns I find entertaining.
Actually I kind of agree with his middle finger analogy. Frequently I find that the best answer to many questions of all sizes is a resounding “fuck you and the horse you rode in on!”
Or in Jesus' case, the two donkeys he rode in on.
@@oscargordon I was going to say that! 😀
You're really getting a lot of mileage out of that low bar bill clip aren't ya Paul? 😂
Good. It's an important quote. Also, it is not a lie but a direct quote for which the context is internally contained.
My daughter asked how we knew god was real so I gave her the finger?
I heard "thumbs up" meant "use the sword [to kill]" in Roman colosseum. And "thumbs down" meant "put the sword down this show is over, no need to kill the loser."
@@letsomethingshine this is what I learned too.
Don’t read the Bible from the beginning that will lose people.
Start this book in the middle.
Yep bingo. Read NIV from the Matthew on. Christian. Then went back and read OT winced a few times still Christian. Accepted the James White "We treat the Bible like any other book, and we demonstrate it is like no other book." Ok. Let's start at In the beginning. Yeah. Not a Christian after that.
I love that you have now been doing this so long, and so well, that all you now have to do is reference yourself.
You my friend, are indeed, an expert.
Love your channel, so much; thanks for all you do!
Well, there is something called "standards of evidence". There has been some thought put into what evidence should be sufficient and what shouldn't.
I LOVE that x-ianity is dying - Grow that "recorded by humans" category!
We need to get those numbers up!! Those are ROOKIE NUMBERS!!!
It seems to be accelerating, as they jump into more and more absurd egos to carry the message forward…. Creating fractured communities. I like to ask evangelicals where they are on the Trump spectrum Antichrist on one end and messiah on the other.
oh noooooh. where is the jingle/intro i love so much?? when unusing it, please link the tune, i miss it.
and thanks for the content. btw. ^^
This is exactly what my Bishop told me when I left Christianity after reading the Bible. "The Bible seems to have problems because God intended it to be like this. It's our job to keep seeking him so that he can reveal himself through his word."
I asked him "Do you believe in Greek Mythology or the Quran?", he said "no. And I told him "Christianity and the Bible is no different".
They sure kind of gloss over the fact of the crusades, where Christian slaughtered other religions, because of what their books said
Don't forget what happened after the Arian Controversy and the subsequent Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that made Nicean Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire while encouraging strict enforcement throughout the empire.
God wills it.
They tend to cavalierly reply that those weren't "true Christians." It's all just a game of Shift the Goalposts.
@@S_Drake as we all know, the only true Christians are the ones that make me look good /s
@@lynniewood haha Exactly 😀
You know the second you decide that you cannot bring up the bible is the inerrant word of god because it brings an avalanche of inconvenient questions from people.
Maybe just maybe your beliefs need to be reevaluated.
When Cristians say things like “God explains everything”, the first think I think of is that they really mean “God explains anything”. And that’s the core problem.
Btw, nice use of the recent Rick and Marty writing episode.
I think there’s no video, just a black screen, but maybe it’s just a bug on my phone.
Just a bug, cause I can see it properly.
Close out all apps. It should fix it.
No, just god working in mysterious ways, or is the devil, mmm...hard to tell really!
"Maybe they're not gonna be convinced; but that doesn't mean our evidence isn't adequate." It LITERALLY does though; does Greg not know what adequate means?
I feel like he doesn't know what a lot of things mean.
Congrats on 111k! Way to go!
You know, the odd thing I think of when Christians mention lowering the bar, or how God has to remain hidden and unknowable in more direct means, etc...
... is that he kind of reminded me of someone my brother dated for a bit too long. Where she'd always go: "Well you're just supposed to KNOW what I want and how to do it, I shouldn't have to tell you" and such. Like that weird sort of relationship that was a bit toxic in that he was supposed to just do everything and expect everything and act perfectly... in a complete absence of information.
This was great Paul. Really appreciate your careful analysis of these topics. In particular, your evolutionary perspective, if I can call it that (e.g. the way humans evolved as story tellers). Humans telling stories is the story of humans.
29:01 That's the thing about Christian apologetics. They may talk about converting nonbelievers, but they're really about keeping the believers they already have. Thus they can expect the people who matter to them to have low standards for evidence.
lol. i've heard of dual standards, but koukl seems to have a standard foe every occasion. and he wonders why people are quitting god.
He suppresses logic in self-righteousness.
The point of an explanation is clarification. As a ten-year old I began to inquire, "yes, but HOW did god do it?" and was stonewalled. I wouldn't say I ever believed, but I certainly began moving in the opposite direction at around that time.
The bible has changed lives... all those natives in America... South America... Australia... Asia... India etc. Waving the bible whilst conquering the heathens!
I would argue that Star Wars episodes 8 & 9 are very much like the New Testament in that even though they knew the stories they had to build on they still didn't get it right.
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y
I have one of those t-shirts! Love it!!! Keep up the great work Paul :)
You have the choices to avoid the truth. And when you find the truth, you have the choice to not believe. You have the choice to not know.
As is demonstrated, the skeptics don't even discuss the science anymore.
Well I have zero expectations for God to do anything so...they are right I don't need expectations when there isn't anything to expect...great job undoing your point
'Oh, and don't bother discussing any of this with those who might not believe it' 1st Peter 3:15.
Isn't that the whole bloody point of them? To "spread the word"? This guy talks fast because he doesn't want anyone having a chance to question his crazy stories.
*despite
I'm so done with all those pretend rational people who claim to voluntarily lower the epistemic bar in order to believe whatever ridiculous beliefs they want. This is so intellectually dishonest, it's beyond the pale.
LOVE the edit on the “extraordinary claims . . . “!
when i was a kid I read a book religiously, over and over. it changed my life, it saved my life, it taught me how to be a better person and that standing up for what is right isn't always easy. that unity is important for strength, and friendship is vital to happiness. and when i say saved my life, i mean it in the most literal sense.
i, of course, am speaking of Harry Potter. it had *much* more influence on who I became than the bible, and I grew up in church reading it and fervently believing in it.
how is the effects Harry Potter had on me and millions of other people any different to the bible?
(my opinions of the author do not apply here)
@2:01
Woow, somwbody got a major degree in blablalogy!
I know of a woman who changed her whole life around because of Tieria Erde from Gundam 00. She gave an interview where she explains how the example of this entirely fictional character- whose designer is living and has left written attestation as to how he was create d- inspired her to become active, improve her health, make friends, and eventually even get a good job.
Until then, she was a borderline shut-in, with precious little in terms of prospects. She was, by her own admission, miserable.
Granted, this is one example but there are many others.
*Excellent work Paul.*
We appreciate the time you put into these vids.
As a rule, I *take notes* on all of your videos.
I only need 3 fingers: emperical evidence, repetable test, valid & sound argument.
“66 books” is only accepted by some; more by others
There are different canons indeed. The Book of Maccabees says that indulgences are O.K. a Jewish general gathers money to pay for prayers and rituals to help his dead non-Jewish soldiers hopefully have a higher chance of being accepted by Yahweh who "loveD" male child genital mutilation
called circumcision which Jesus had and if his body was magical was his circumcision skin magical?
@@letsomethingshine The Foreskin of Jesus would be a most potent relic indeed. I mean, the all-powerful creator of the universe does seem suspiciously preoccupied with penises. I mean, everyone knows that boobs are the center of the universe, and the bible rarely mentions them. Come on... a bunch of goat herders and fishermen not talking about boobs? That's enough to make you question the authenticity of the bible right there.
Correct...73 in Roman Catholicism, 100 (!!) in the Ethiopian Orthodox Churches.
The gospel writers often say that Jesus did something specifically to fulfill prophecy, even if Jesus existed, and even if he did those things, if he knew about the prophecy and specifically did things to make himself match up with the prophecy... that isn't very impressive.
I never possessed the patience to be able to discuss the Bible with Christian’s. How Paul hangs there is amazing.
I wrote a 2 minute play about the moment I became a non-believer. It was called "The Last Prayer" and I wrote I because of the no true Scotsman fallacy thrown at me about my previous beliefs
"If there is one chance in a million that this is true, it is worth believing." How is that different from Pascal's Wager?
If you apply that logic then you'd also have to believe in every religion! (bound to be safe then, cover all bases!)
It's so funny how apologetics have migrated from "Gospel Truth" to "Minimal Facts" to "Don't talk about this, or that, or this other thing, until they've uncritically presupposed that everything in the holy book is god-breathed". As a medical professional, and avid player of Plague, Inc, I recognize this all too well as the flailing desperation of trading lethality for infectivity. And I know that it leads to vaccination.
Video game does a thing, therefore real-life mirror?
..And your a med professional?
@Lunth-yl2mk
It’s called drawing a parallel, and if you have an issue with that then I can’t wait to hear what your take is on the use of parables in any given religious text
Moreover, “trading lethality for infectivity” is observed in all kinds of real-world pathogens that have to lower lethality via mutations to increase infectivity because that’s how such a pathogen more easily spreads to viable hosts. That was OP’s point
it's amazing how many of eric hovind's arguments boil down to appeals to authority and no true scotsmen fallacies.
Thumbs up... in the Roman Arena did not mean 'Let him live.' It meant 'kill him.' Very common misconception about the gladiatorial games.
Greg Koukl counters, "You don't need extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims. You need ADEQUATE evidence." He is wrong. Evidently he has forgotten the relevant passages from David Hume. What is required is ADEQUATELY EXTRAORDINARY evidence. Koukl has affirmed that the evidence and the claims should be of the same quality, but Sagan has already said that.
I look forward to anyone bringing any of these terrible arguments to me. As a person trained in both the presentation of evidence and history, these are so much fun to knock down.
Paul, that clip of WLC never ceases to blow my mind.
If you only quoted him, even with my deep respect for your integrity, I would be skeptical that such a respected apologist would say such a thing.
I didn’t feel broken and guilty until I went to children’s church camp and was told I was broken, guilty and I would burn in hell.
The Holy Spirit ghosted me.
Or..”A book with the word”God”in it!”👀
Very methodical. Excellent.
I took Spanish in high school. The moment I realized just how imperfect translation is even between two very well known common languages was the moment I started questioning the validity of the Bible.
I believed (for a time) that man had just corrupted the word of God rather than that the Bible was fallible. That slowly eroded later.
Realizing the implications when changing the translation of just one word (tsela = whole & equal side rather than “rib”) profoundly affected my view of the entire text and it’s accuracy. I no longer trusted the version of the holy word I was being told was God’s word and it opened up many avenues for my own research and discovery.
I could then explore in greater detail the point of view of the writers and translators to see how that may have impacted the way the story was written. I sought unadulterated truth. I slowly realized that I couldn’t find it in scripture.