A good quick way of retrobriting the keys without sunlight (good for those of us in the UK) is to get some "Super Star Crystal Clear Peroxide", it's cheap. You then pop the keys (after cleaning them) in a large saucepan and fill with the Peroxide and water 50-50 solution and boil at 70c for about 4 hours. After 4 hours, or more if they're really yellow, you should have some keys that now look new. One of my C64c machines had almost banana-coloured keys, and after 4 hours of the above method they now look almost white. And the plastic feels just as strong, not brittle or weak.
Sooooo much love :) Thank you mate. Great times back in the day. Lovely made video. Enjoyed it. I still have to find my time to get my Amiga back on the road again. Your Amiga Restoration videos are as well very lovely made and well done. Keep these videos coming :)
Perifractic hehe well if I get a breadbin I'd happily make a series on that. Stick around though I'm just putting a new studio space together and then I have some real treats lined up
After all these years, the C64 is still my favorite computer :-) I bought two of the PixelWizard cases, a breadbin-grey to house my 1982 326298 board, and an SX-64 style for the Reloaded-MK2 that's my daily driver now. They both look fantastic! Question- can you link the product page for those handsome heat sinks? I'm using smaller 10-11mm square sinks in tandem as I've seen Jan do, but I really like the look and fit of yours.
I think I'd be inclined to wear an NBC suit when cleaning the keyboard as there is a whole load of gunk and whatnot that makes my soul shiver inside my body.. hahaha!
go faster stripes, love it. i heard that in edd china's voice. hahaha. you and him are similar in that you both have that perfect brit way of explaining things and making it ejoyable as well as educational. long live the cave!
I'm not sure if i'm seeing things, but i'm pretty sure you put the spacebar spring on the P key. It's slightly longer, to keep the spacebar feeling like the other keys.
It's funny though. Compared to some U.S. garage sale, Goodwill, or eBay finds, that thing appears almost mint perfect. (No smoke film, barely discolored, no scrapes, no gouges, no soda spills, no build-up of hand oil shmoo, or who knows what?) I'd think the 8-bit Guy would be amazed to find one in that condition. But in this video it's still nowhere near good enough.
pauljs75 perfection is always the goal! In all honesty I don't expect people to hold their machines to high standards so long as they work safely, but in showing what is possible people can make more informed decisions on what they fancy doing to their own C64s.
+Kjaer6792 he is indeed! I visit many systems and it always helps to have someone on board who has such intimate knowledge of a system to give something extra
I guess, when you consider how old these PSU's are (even 5 years ago when this video was released) the Power Supplies have done pretty well. Even when Commodore was at their peak, I doubt they designed the C64 to still be operating almost 40 years later. The Power Supply you have seems to have a pretty decent heat sink, and without all that resin it should actually last pretty well
Great video! Do you have access to the 1541 Ultimate II or Turbo Chameleon 64 cartridges? The are really the ultimate C64 flash carts from a compatibility and feature set standpoint. I have the 1541 Ultimate II and it's fantastic. Much, much more compatible (especially with demos) than the SD2IEC solutions.
Larry Bundy Jr I have indeed and The8BitGuy has some good videos on that method. I find good old sunshine works best but there won't be any of that here soon.
Synthematix tbh, I have heard more than a few horror stories of some cases becoming extremely brittle after Retrobrighting, but I've yet to try it myself. The methods that 8-bit Guy used seem best (like the "B-Blonde" gel, or clear liquid "developer" peroxide.) The main problem with the harsher treatments is that it removes the emollients from the plastics, hence the brittleness. But, from all the vids and articles I've seen in recent years, it seems that as long as you don't over do it, it's generally OK?
The new-new cases look ideal. I just wish they were a tiny bit cheaper, but I'm more than aware of the time and money that goes into producing them, especially using the original moulds. It's currently €59 for the off-white C64C case, and to be fair, I've seen smaller project boxes costing more than that. lol
There's also the option to keep using the old PSU for the 9VAC line and use, say a PSP PSU, for the 5VDC line which is the one that kills the C64 when it breaks anyway. All you need is a simple y-cable that is even sold online. Thank you for the superb mini-series, RMC!
This is basically the same idea what Jan Beta used in his lazy DIY c64 PSU build. However, buying a y-cable online and a PSP PSU is I guess even lazier :) but definitely not as nice as Jan's solution.
If you want to be REALLY lazy, you can bodge one together from a pair of modern wall warts, one that produces 9V AC @ 1 ampere and one that produces 5V DC @ 2 amperes. Or buy a Commodore 128 power supply (which was a switching PSU, unlike the C64's PSU, so it doesn't generate as much waste heat), hack the square 5-pin DIN connector off, and replace it with a round 7-pin C64 DIN connector.
Great video :) I had C64c bought new in 1989 and it had similar power supply as Jan Beta shows in his part of the video. Right after warranty expired, it started blowing the fuse and as it's not serviceable, we had to buy a new one.
If you do cleaning a lot, invest on a 1L ultrasonic cleaner. Just pour in some dish soap and tap water (~5%, for oil and grease removal) and put your keys and springs in. Run it for few seconds to minutes (without heat if possible), then pour in deionized or distilled water then run it again to prevent corrosion and salt residue. Then keys and springs come squeaky clean!
Penurious Sierra It would be useful but I do like to show accesible methods where possible to encourage others to try it. We all have a toothbrush! I'd like to give one a go some time though. Thanks!
RetroManCave Thanks! Of course, not everyone has them on hand, so it should be noted that "If you have one, try this method, but it's okay if you don't have one" Also another tip, if your circuit seems to malfunction for no reason (no broken traces, chips are all fine, no rogue components, etc) use rubbing alcohol and toothbrush to wash the flux and contacts. If you have 99% variant, you may use soak-and-scrub method, provided that denaturing agent does not include solvents like acetone or toluene. (Sanitary products do not contain such agents and isopropanol usually does not include them) For my Yamaha synth repair, the original board was absolutely caked in flux for some reason (I guess they just dipped the bottom of the board in flux then tossed it into solder pot) and board turned into sticky mess when I tried to clean the contacts, so I used alcohol to dissolve away all the permanent marker markings and flux that covered the entire board away and finished it by rinsing it in the distilled water, blowing the water off with air duster and putting it in a drying chamber made with cheap plastic container with lids made to accept low-heat air from hair dryer.
Thank you as always for watching. You can support the cave with Patreon here: www.patreon.com/RetroManCave Eagle eyed viewers spotted the slightly longer space bar spring was under the "P" key! This has now been re-homed to the correct position. You guys don't miss a thing!
Haha, I was thinking more hydraulic suspension.... this is the Man Cave after all :-) Wishing you and everyone on the channel a great 2018 and every success, can't wait to see what the year brings.
MadPete thanks Pete I'm looking forward to it as well, just as soon as everything is setup this week I'll slot into a nice regular schedule and see where the youtube adventure goes next
...That little SD card reader that you put down with the Epyx cart is *adorable*. :-) Great how they styled it after the 1541 case (thought part of me wonders...you have a Datasette and a 1541, but no 1571?)
Would it be possible to build pcb's like the commodore 64 and sell / buy them as a kit where you only have to solder the components on? There are things like the SID that aren't available anymore, but I'm sure there are solutions for that. They reversed engineerd the TB-303 bass synthesizer so why can't it be done with the C64 ?
Wow never knew the power supply was so fragile. Mines still works perfectly after nearly 30 years. Guess I must have a Swiss watch C64. Cassette deck has seen better days though - only loads some games when it feels like it.
I have a C64C with a broken key, I can remove the broken plastic but I need to replace the plunger will a plunger from an earlier C64 keyboard work in the C64C
Your keys scrubbing montage disturbs me on some level as i am currently using exactly same toothbrush (down to the colour scheme)... to clean my teeth :P
Just wondering if this was meant to have "part 2" in the title? I'm guessing by the current title that it could be for a good reason? :p Yes, the C64 power bricks do tend to fail a lot. I'm sure the potting is trapping the heat in the case too, because the 5 Volt regs are usually pretty hefty, so would normally be overrated for the current draw and dissipation. The best "C64 saver" circuits by far are the solid state ones btw (with a MOSFET instead of a relay or simple fuse, which don't react anywhere near fast enough.) I believe that the devices from Mr bwack are full solid state, so that's good. There are also some C64 savers that let you use a standard wall wart or 12V power brick, but it is a bit of a challenge to generate the isolated 9V AC output from DC. Those designs should also include reverse-polarity protection as well though, as it would make it possible to plug in the wrong PSU. Again, the better C64 Saver circuits actually include that protection as an inherent thing. You just need to find the good ones. ;)
My recently acquired 64c has a metal heatshield that makes contact with the CPU, SID and VIC-II - and each contact point has thermal compound applied. Is mine a common variation?
is there a shop I can go to for c64 parts? I want to replace all the capacitors and such, basically all the things that should be replaced. also is the good site that acts as a walkthrough for that sort of thing?
+onedeadsaint here's a place in the UK or you can simply read the ratings on your caps and use an electronics supplier. www.retroleum.co.uk/c64-capacitors
RetroManCave thank you very much, sir. do you recommend any good sites for walkthroughs on checking and replacing parts. I have a c64 that I bought a few months back and I'm looking to fix it up. the person I bought it from said powered on, but I haven't done that myself cause I knew about the power issues. thanks, again! love the channel
Capacitors and the like are bog-standard components found in pretty much everything made in many decades. You don't need any kind of specialist suppliers for stuff like that. But you might need to look a bit harder if you need to replace something like the SID chip or even the CPU. Technically WDC still manufactures brand new 65c02, and the 16 bit 65c802 and 65c816 chips, but while those are great for messing around with, I don't think they can be used as direct replacements of chips in older systems. (maybe in theory, but I suspect it would require quite a lot of work to adapt it. Even just the fact that the modern chips can run at up to 14 mhz might be an issue.) Really though, if you need to replace anything like that, you're probably well outside the realms of basic restoration, and into either major repairs, or heavy modifications of your system...
+RetroManCave You can get replacement keys, but usually these are taken off salvaged units and have some yellowing. As for *new* keys, there was an indiegogo project about two years ago, but I don't know if they're ever going to do another production run (it cost 30,000 euro for the first run; they were selling them for about 21 euro per set, plus shipping). I suppose you could go to the website linked below and try to contact them to see if they still have any replacement sets in the original color (or plans to do another production run): phase5.eu/contact-us/ Oh, related to an earlier comment about the Commodore 64 label not matching, these guys do *not* have the license to reproduce the original Commodore logo, so you can't get a new key that is an exact match for the Commodore key either. You'll have to settle for the retro-brighted one.
But what will you do with the original case? Why not clean that and retrobright it so as to keep the computer more original? It's not like the original case was damaged right? Just needed some TLC.
gnarlin good question, we found in part one (and the donor also advised) that it's not the original case. I therefore used it as a license to take this approach without feeling bad about it. I'll restore the old case to save a future system, perhaps one with major cosmetic damage.
I was about to suggest that myself..fix it up in your spare time, and keep it around as a spare. I miss my old C64C..and never did get around to trying out the 128, since the one I had showed up around the same time as my Amiga, and I used that instead, since it could do things better online.
As someone who old enough to remember what beige boxes like the C64 used to look like - beige - I'm suspicious the retro brighting process takes out way too much colour.
Jonathan Pearce I too am sensitive to (and old enough to remember first hand) originality. Retrobrite reverses chemical reaction, from my experience it has never taken a plastic beyond the original shade. Perhaps that's the science of it or perhaps that's the weak British sunshine. I do understand though the division in opinions and try to remain faithful to the origins of the machines I work with as you'll find in my other restorations.
RetroManCave I suppose there are always photographs which can be used as objective reference. Maybe I just remember 80s being more brown than they were :)
There is also Ray Carlsen, who builds reproduction PSUs and sells them, among other useful hardware. I've seen other replacement PSUs elsewhere, but I don't know if any of them are any good. personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/ There's also some repair resources there, so it's a useful site to have.
That spring under "P" key should go under spacebar :) Also, let me know if you want brand new springs - I'll send you a package :) I've recently created a batch and these and are available through www.retro-cloud.eu :)
Can someone please make photo of components of that power supply? I got it damaged the way it is explained in this video, - it began giving overvoltage of 5.5 volts (this became known to me at the proper time and C64 did not get damage). But I find no list of components of this particular power supply. Especially I would like to know the amount of electrolytic capacitors it has. Somehow I forgot which ones exactly mine had.
Yes indeed another viewer has spotted this. I can't say it feels any different but I'll swap them around as that's where it's meant to be! Well spotted!
I'm having trouble myself. I found one on ebay from an Australian seller but I can't vouch for it until it arrives. There are also PSU's for sale in Poland with over voltage protection etc. Have an ebay search for c64 power saver or psu
Building up an icomp.de C64 Reloaded MKII board in one of the old Kickstarter 64C cases. Next step is to make a new Cherry MX keyboard for it, but until then I thought I'd clean up a classic keyboard for testing. They're really depressing keyboards compared to modern systems!
Hotplate Labs very nice! Yes Commodore keyboards are mostly poor save for a few mechanical oddities like a limited run in the A500. The Acorn Electron keyboard is fantastic in comparison and often coverted to a USB keyboard
This might have been said already - too many comments to check - but don't use that two-sided tape to adhere the heatsinks to the chips. Unless it's specifically stated that it's thermal tape (and if that's the case then ignore this whole comment), you're impeding heat transfer rather than enhancing it. Rather, use proper thermal epoxy (or mix some two-part epoxy with thermal goop for PC heatsinks - you can find the correct quantities if you search for DIY thermal epoxy).
This was - as always - very good and informative video. What bugs the me most (being from central "eastern" Europe) is that during my childhood, we were still a communist country, ripped away from the rest of the western Europe. Therefore, as much as I love these Commodore 64 videos, it bears no memories for me. Most of us had different types of 8bit computers, like Didaktik (which was a ZX Spectrum clone). I was around for model M which was visually already very different from ZX (and when the the rest of the western world was already beginning to rock their x86es), and that model is connected to my childhood memories by a steel chain. Right at the edge of the so-called velvet revolution Skalica made the last and very pointless attempt to move a little closer to its competition attaching a 3.5" drive to model M, which was called Didaktik Compact. They'd call it " a gate to a world of professional computers". If only, if only... It of course never took off. It's pity there's nobody like you doing videos about those forgotten computers. I'd love to restore one, but I can do only "monkey see, monkey do" repairs, 'cause I'm completely incompetent, so no go for me on that :D
I'd love to get my hands on some eastern European tech but it's hard to come by here. Perhaps some of Bazza's videos would bring back some nostalgia, such as this: th-cam.com/video/lokKpr4lux0/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, I'll give it a chance. If you really are interested in our eastern stuff, I believe I can be of some assistance here later on. I'll get back to you as soon as I'll find one model M that does not look like "kakatuti" since it will be your first (and for many viewers too). They came painted in grey, but never mind that, they can still get yellow plus they peel. I will also try to find a piece with a working power supply, or at least a power supply (a challenge for you). And mainly - a piece that will be a little less costly than a combined value of both my kidneys :D When they work, they can get a little un-cheap. Then you'll be probably faced with sticky keys (meaning when you press them, you're done for and you have to disassemble the whole thing) and some other delightful quirks. You'll need an analog tape recorder (separate diskette drives cost like a whole diamond mine if you can find one, which you can't), a TV and some programs. I myself have none, so I can at least look for a game on tape or so. It should be compatible with ZX stuff most of the time too, but not always. So let me know if you're into it. I'll contact you for an address and send it your way then.
If it's still got the same edge connector as the Sinclair machines (or, even if all the signals are still present), in theory it may work with the various DIV sd card devices, which is a great way to shortcut the whole tape/floppy malarkey.
There is some kind of connector, but since I'm not skilled in electronics, I have no idea what it is and what it is capable of. I've been told that it will not be compatible with anything. Even joysticks have to be proprietary and made for Didaktik, nothing else will work - unless of course you're good at modding, which I'm not :D
Great vid as always! Wish there was a way to pull the original case sticker and transfer it to the new case. Perhaps I'm just to anal about that sort of thing.
You know when Han Solo gets encased in carbon freeze, yeah? Well this is nothing like that. ;p As an aside, one argument against retrobrite (btw the new case seems a good idea) is it affects the provenance/patina. #rbneo
+ObsoletePowerCorrupts it's a point of contention for many that's for sure. With this C64 I wasn't too concerned about mixing it up with a new case as the old one was not the original to the board. I watched a restoration of a 60s Lamborghini recently and it was highly praised for having the original paint, but of course it was stored under cover and looked after its entire life. Very few systems are cared for in the same way. I do love restoring systems back to their original shade, but also wish their was a better way of doing it. Oh well, in this instance I can enjoy the new case and keep the old safely near by.
I think, seeing as a c64 gets called a "breadbin" (well some do), a person can safely say to their breadbin " _consider yourself part of the furniture_ ". That means a "patina" pertains to its "provenance", rather than it being a beat-up motor. In fact, some people build computers into actual desks. Discuss. #WuvJoy
The case looks very authentic but they should have gone the extra mile and replicate the label. I wonder why it looks like that, maybe some weird post-Commodore licensing problem?
+Amerigo Costa I think you're right. The Commodore trademark is, as of 16 December 2013, officially owned by a company called "C= Holdings" (formerly Commodore International B.V.) Their trademark specifically includes the hardware, which probably includes the labels. If so, you could not replicate the label without first paying a licensing fee and being licensed by C= Holdings. (The trademark does *not* include apparel, so if you want to print T-shirts with the Commodore logo on them, go right ahead.) EDIT: Confirmed. The label is almost certainly part of the trademark. I was checking to see if RMC could get new keys to go with that new case, and I found some... but the guys who made them said that they didn't have the license to make a new Commodore key that was an exact match for the original Commodore logo. If they can't print keys with the Commodore logo, it's a pretty safe assumption that you can't make an exact match of the label without paying for a production license from C= Holdings.
Yes, it's thermal tape meant for small heat-sinks. As long as you use good quality thermal tape you should be OK. 3M brand is one of the best. Sometimes heat-sinks come with cheap tape. Never use that stuff.
Yep, the proper 3M stuff is great. But, be aware of the fake "3M" branded stuff too. It's common to see that stuff when ordering pre-taped heatsinks from China etc., and I haven't yet looked into ways of identifying the fake stuff. btw, the black anodised heatsinks genuinely dissipate the heat better. :p Some people will argue that machines usually worked OK without heatsinks for over 30 years, but if you really care about preserving them for longer, then I can't see the harm in spending a bit extra on a few heatsinks for the hotter chips. What often kills chips is actually the thermal cycling (and I don't mean riding a bicycle while wearing a jumper. lol) The expansion and contraction of the chip package and leadframe can eventually cause the wire bonds to break. The silicon chips themselves are normally very robust unless supplied too much voltage, or zapped by ESD (like the C64 CIA chips, if you touch the joystick port pins). The chips can still have problems with things like moisture ingress though.
I just can't understand why you have to input a load command to load a disk. Even the much older Apple ][ didn't have to do that, so it is impossible to justify.
"Even the much older Apple ][ didn't have to do that"... *only* if you specified an autoboot program when you formatted the disk. For example, if you formatted the disk with INIT HELLO it would look for a program called HELLO when you turned on the computer. Of course, HELLO could just be a program that doesn't actually *do* anything, in which case you still have to LOAD (or BLOAD) programs like normal. On the Commodore, the disk drive was a "smart" drive... it's literally a computer by itself, with its own RAM, ROM, and CPU. For a long time, *nobody else* had smart drives like that... you either needed a special interface card or you had to load the disk operating system into the computer's RAM (or both). So the autoboot function was built into the interface card or the disk operating system. Commodore's disk operating system was built into the disk drive, not into the computer. And *that* is why it doesn't have an autoboot feature. The benefit is that you get to use *all* the computer's RAM. You don't have to reserve part of your RAM for the disk drive to use.
My dad had an Apple ][. All of the program disks booted automatically. The Atari 1050 disk drive would also boot automatically with every disk, and it was a 'smart' drive. Interesting information, though.
As for the Apple II: Of course they did. I just mentioned the whole INIT {name} thing, right? It would automatically format a blank disk, and then save the BASIC program in memory to the disk. When you turned on the computer, the first thing it did was check to see if there was a program with the name you specified. If there was, it would load and run it automatically. Of course, this only worked for Applesoft BASIC programs; if you wanted it to automatically run a machine language program instead, you had to use a sector editor and directly change the contents of track $00, sector $0D, byte $42 from $00 to $14 (this tells it to use BRUN instead of RUN). As for the Atari 1050 drive being 'smart'... that's true, but you *still* had to load DOS into the system RAM, which is why you couldn't use a disk drive unless you had at least 48k of RAM. You probably didn't notice, because by the time the Atari 800 reached the market, the price of RAM had started to drop, so eventually *all* Atari computers shipped with 48k already installed. The only reason you *wouldn't* have 48k is if you got a computer that was manufactured in the first year or so. Not only that, but because Atari DOS used 128 bytes per sector (instead of 256 bytes per sector like *everyone else* did), the older Atari 810 disk drive only held 90k per disk, compared to Commodore's 170k per disk or Apple's 140k. The 1050 supported Enhanced Density disks, which had a limit of 130k. Out of that 90k (or 130k), about 38k was eaten by DOS.SYS, DUP.SYS, RAMDISK.COM and MEM.SAV, leaving you with just 51.5k (or 91.5k). You could delete MEM.SAV for more space, *if* you didn't mind losing the program you were typing *every time* you used the DOS menu (or bypass the DOS menu and use XIO commands like XIO 253,#1,0,0,"D1:" which would format a blank disk.)
SpearM75503 I own an Atari 800XL with an Atari 1050 disk drive. I never had to load the disk operating system; all I had to do was turn it on. Perhaps it was different with earlier models, but my dad owned a couple of those and I don't recall having to load the disk operating system. I am not saying that I don't like the Commodore 64 (in fact, I happen to like it very much), but having to type in a load command is not very user friendly for first-time users who didn't happen to have a manual.
Infinitecanadian On the Atari 800XL, if you have the Atari BASIC cartridge plugged in, the first thing the Atari does whem you turn it on is to check the first drive in the chain (D1) for a disk with DOS on it. The computer only knows enough about the hard drive to load the first few sectors, which is the "bootstrap" for loading DOS.SYS. If you're trying to use Atari BASIC, and your first disk (D1:) does not have DOS.SYS on it, the computer displays the message "Error: No DOS" and then just sits there and does nothing. The reason you don't remember having to load the disk operating system is because it does it automatically. Oh, and by the way, the Atari also did not automatically copy the DOS files to a freshly formatted disk. You had to type DOS (which actually loads DUP.SYS), use Option P from the utility menu to format a blank disk, and then use Option H to write the DOS files to it. You mean to tell me you've *never* seen this screen? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_DOS#/media/File:Ataridos-2.5.PNG
"Go faster Stripes" and "Spoiler" on the C64 is a must do. Doubles your Megahertzing.
I appreciate the humor. Its why I keep watching.
How about some of Homers Speed Holes? ;D
A good quick way of retrobriting the keys without sunlight (good for those of us in the UK) is to get some "Super Star Crystal Clear Peroxide", it's cheap. You then pop the keys (after cleaning them) in a large saucepan and fill with the Peroxide and water 50-50 solution and boil at 70c for about 4 hours. After 4 hours, or more if they're really yellow, you should have some keys that now look new.
One of my C64c machines had almost banana-coloured keys, and after 4 hours of the above method they now look almost white. And the plastic feels just as strong, not brittle or weak.
DKTronics70 excellent idea thanks
Sooooo much love :) Thank you mate. Great times back in the day. Lovely made video. Enjoyed it. I still have to find my time to get my Amiga back on the road again. Your Amiga Restoration videos are as well very lovely made and well done. Keep these videos coming :)
+Sascha Henken thanks for watching! I have big plans for 2018 so stay tuned for a whole new level of sweeping retro shots and camera angles
Can you make nothing but C64 restoration videos? Strangely compulsive! Lovely work. 😁
Perifractic hehe well if I get a breadbin I'd happily make a series on that. Stick around though I'm just putting a new studio space together and then I have some real treats lined up
RetroManCave Consider me stuck around. Happy Christmas from California. 🎄🕹️
Perifractic Happy Christmas sir!
Just found two C64's in my mums loft. I am going to need this video..
After all these years, the C64 is still my favorite computer :-) I bought two of the PixelWizard cases, a breadbin-grey to house my 1982 326298 board, and an SX-64 style for the Reloaded-MK2 that's my daily driver now. They both look fantastic!
Question- can you link the product page for those handsome heat sinks? I'm using smaller 10-11mm square sinks in tandem as I've seen Jan do, but I really like the look and fit of yours.
I think I'd be inclined to wear an NBC suit when cleaning the keyboard as there is a whole load of gunk and whatnot that makes my soul shiver inside my body.. hahaha!
reggiep75 oh that's nothing compared the the gravy we cleaned off the Electron in a recent series. It's why I use Mrs RMC's toothbrush.
There is no such thing as too many cleaning montage :)
Another great video and can't wait to see part 3
go faster stripes, love it. i heard that in edd china's voice. hahaha. you and him are similar in that you both have that perfect brit way of explaining things and making it ejoyable as well as educational. long live the cave!
I'm not sure if i'm seeing things, but i'm pretty sure you put the spacebar spring on the P key. It's slightly longer, to keep the spacebar feeling like the other keys.
D.E.C. Tech I'll check that thanks!
It's funny though. Compared to some U.S. garage sale, Goodwill, or eBay finds, that thing appears almost mint perfect. (No smoke film, barely discolored, no scrapes, no gouges, no soda spills, no build-up of hand oil shmoo, or who knows what?) I'd think the 8-bit Guy would be amazed to find one in that condition. But in this video it's still nowhere near good enough.
pauljs75 perfection is always the goal! In all honesty I don't expect people to hold their machines to high standards so long as they work safely, but in showing what is possible people can make more informed decisions on what they fancy doing to their own C64s.
Jan Beta is a great addition to the videoes!
+Kjaer6792 he is indeed! I visit many systems and it always helps to have someone on board who has such intimate knowledge of a system to give something extra
I guess, when you consider how old these PSU's are (even 5 years ago when this video was released) the Power Supplies have done pretty well. Even when Commodore was at their peak, I doubt they designed the C64 to still be operating almost 40 years later.
The Power Supply you have seems to have a pretty decent heat sink, and without all that resin it should actually last pretty well
The potting was done to AID cooling? I cant imagine how it would cool better than air would.
I am perfectly fine with the re-chipping montages, keep 'em coming. Thanks for the video
+Steve Martino noted! Thank for watching
Great video! Do you have access to the 1541 Ultimate II or Turbo Chameleon 64 cartridges? The are really the ultimate C64 flash carts from a compatibility and feature set standpoint. I have the 1541 Ultimate II and it's fantastic. Much, much more compatible (especially with demos) than the SD2IEC solutions.
Todd's Nerd Cave great to see you here Todd. I don't have those but will take a look into them thanks!
Have you ever thought of using an ozone generator for retrobrite-ing? It's quite good for fiddly bits, or parts that can't get wet.
Larry Bundy Jr I have indeed and The8BitGuy has some good videos on that method. I find good old sunshine works best but there won't be any of that here soon.
#BeingBritishProblems :P
retrobriting works but it makes the plastic brittle in time thats why i dont bother, just respray
Synthematix
tbh, I have heard more than a few horror stories of some cases becoming extremely brittle after Retrobrighting, but I've yet to try it myself.
The methods that 8-bit Guy used seem best (like the "B-Blonde" gel, or clear liquid "developer" peroxide.)
The main problem with the harsher treatments is that it removes the emollients from the plastics, hence the brittleness.
But, from all the vids and articles I've seen in recent years, it seems that as long as you don't over do it, it's generally OK?
The new-new cases look ideal.
I just wish they were a tiny bit cheaper, but I'm more than aware of the time and money that goes into producing them, especially using the original moulds.
It's currently €59 for the off-white C64C case, and to be fair, I've seen smaller project boxes costing more than that. lol
I continue to enjoy this video series, and really like the crossover with Jan Beta. I look forward to more. Oh, and Merry Christmas, by the way! 🎅
+MindFlareRetro Merry Christmas sir!
There's also the option to keep using the old PSU for the 9VAC line and use, say a PSP PSU, for the 5VDC line which is the one that kills the C64 when it breaks anyway. All you need is a simple y-cable that is even sold online. Thank you for the superb mini-series, RMC!
+Csaba Sánta interesting idea thank you!
This is basically the same idea what Jan Beta used in his lazy DIY c64 PSU build. However, buying a y-cable online and a PSP PSU is I guess even lazier :) but definitely not as nice as Jan's solution.
You say Lazy as if it's a bad thing ;)
On the contrary, cheaper too ;)
If you want to be REALLY lazy, you can bodge one together from a pair of modern wall warts, one that produces 9V AC @ 1 ampere and one that produces 5V DC @ 2 amperes. Or buy a Commodore 128 power supply (which was a switching PSU, unlike the C64's PSU, so it doesn't generate as much waste heat), hack the square 5-pin DIN connector off, and replace it with a round 7-pin C64 DIN connector.
Great video :) I had C64c bought new in 1989 and it had similar power supply as Jan Beta shows in his part of the video. Right after warranty expired, it started blowing the fuse and as it's not serviceable, we had to buy a new one.
+Mr JSV thanks! Yes I'm sure somebody somewhere thought it was a good idea at the time! At least it fried your fuses and not your C64.
If you do cleaning a lot, invest on a 1L ultrasonic cleaner. Just pour in some dish soap and tap water (~5%, for oil and grease removal) and put your keys and springs in. Run it for few seconds to minutes (without heat if possible), then pour in deionized or distilled water then run it again to prevent corrosion and salt residue. Then keys and springs come squeaky clean!
Penurious Sierra It would be useful but I do like to show accesible methods where possible to encourage others to try it. We all have a toothbrush! I'd like to give one a go some time though. Thanks!
RetroManCave
Thanks! Of course, not everyone has them on hand, so it should be noted that "If you have one, try this method, but it's okay if you don't have one"
Also another tip, if your circuit seems to malfunction for no reason (no broken traces, chips are all fine, no rogue components, etc) use rubbing alcohol and toothbrush to wash the flux and contacts. If you have 99% variant, you may use soak-and-scrub method, provided that denaturing agent does not include solvents like acetone or toluene. (Sanitary products do not contain such agents and isopropanol usually does not include them)
For my Yamaha synth repair, the original board was absolutely caked in flux for some reason (I guess they just dipped the bottom of the board in flux then tossed it into solder pot) and board turned into sticky mess when I tried to clean the contacts, so I used alcohol to dissolve away all the permanent marker markings and flux that covered the entire board away and finished it by rinsing it in the distilled water, blowing the water off with air duster and putting it in a drying chamber made with cheap plastic container with lids made to accept low-heat air from hair dryer.
No, No, No - don't use your OWN toothbrush! Use someone else's. What the eye don't see, the heart don't grieve over :)
Great video RMC...may the sun shine on your retrobriteing...
+Rob Simpson thank you Rob we sure need some sun!
Good vid there RMC quality as standard. Love the new case and yes GET THEM KEYS RETROBRITED as soon as possible.....Kim 😋
+P Star yes maam!
Thank you as always for watching. You can support the cave with Patreon here: www.patreon.com/RetroManCave
Eagle eyed viewers spotted the slightly longer space bar spring was under the "P" key! This has now been re-homed to the correct position. You guys don't miss a thing!
Needed 14 new keyboard springs myself, but ended up making my own - no one selling in volume.
So much love here, and such a huge amount of effort.
2:26 FULL BRIDGE RECTIFIER!!
She canne' take it captain!
daoneTM I'd love to see retro man cave do a collab with electroboom!
[ Mehdi intensifies ]
Another fantastic vid, can't wait for part 3 I'm toying with buying one of theses or a spectrum what one would you recommend.
Kind regards Gary
garybetts11 thanks! If you have no nostalgic allegiance I would go C64 personally. Although the Spectrum Next looks like fun.
Got me by the intro, one of the best on the C64, Supremacy by Jeroen Tel :)
Take the guts outside the old one and fit your own inside the old shell.
Very enjoyable as always, looking forward to part 3, the spoiler, and go faster stripe ;-)
MadPete maybe we should lower it as well?
Haha, I was thinking more hydraulic suspension.... this is the Man Cave after all :-) Wishing you and everyone on the channel a great 2018 and every success, can't wait to see what the year brings.
MadPete thanks Pete I'm looking forward to it as well, just as soon as everything is setup this week I'll slot into a nice regular schedule and see where the youtube adventure goes next
...That little SD card reader that you put down with the Epyx cart is *adorable*. :-) Great how they styled it after the 1541 case (thought part of me wonders...you have a Datasette and a 1541, but no 1571?)
Since those are key*caps* on the keyboard we still got a re'cap' montage. :D
you are going to go straight to paradise
My wife thinks I'm weird watching and enjoying your videos.
+Cobrajellyfish leave her. Immediately. 👍
Would it be possible to build pcb's like the commodore 64 and sell / buy them as a kit where you only have to solder the components on? There are things like the SID that aren't available anymore, but I'm sure there are solutions for that. They reversed engineerd the TB-303 bass synthesizer so why can't it be done with the C64 ?
When doing the spoiler, don’t forget the ground-effects package too! 😜
+Dark Winter Do you think we have enough speed to warrant the stage 2 aero package?
All you need is to add some stickers. Each sticker adds 5 HP!
RetroManCave - Couldn’t hurt. I’m pretty sure your C128 should be equipped with a Stage 3 package, though... 😎
Wow never knew the power supply was so fragile. Mines still works perfectly after nearly 30 years. Guess I must have a Swiss watch C64. Cassette deck has seen better days though - only loads some games when it feels like it.
Still worth voltage testing your PSU regularly or getting a "saver" device for it. Overvoltage can be a silent killer.
I have a C64C with a broken key, I can remove the broken plastic but I need to replace the plunger will a plunger from an earlier C64 keyboard work in the C64C
Your keys scrubbing montage disturbs me on some level as i am currently using exactly same toothbrush (down to the colour scheme)... to clean my teeth :P
Don't worry, I put it back in your bathroom when I finished with it :D
That's it! I'm buying new brush :P
Just wondering if this was meant to have "part 2" in the title?
I'm guessing by the current title that it could be for a good reason? :p
Yes, the C64 power bricks do tend to fail a lot.
I'm sure the potting is trapping the heat in the case too, because the 5 Volt regs are usually pretty hefty, so would normally be overrated for the current draw and dissipation.
The best "C64 saver" circuits by far are the solid state ones btw (with a MOSFET instead of a relay or simple fuse, which don't react anywhere near fast enough.)
I believe that the devices from Mr bwack are full solid state, so that's good.
There are also some C64 savers that let you use a standard wall wart or 12V power brick, but it is a bit of a challenge to generate the isolated 9V AC output from DC.
Those designs should also include reverse-polarity protection as well though, as it would make it possible to plug in the wrong PSU.
Again, the better C64 Saver circuits actually include that protection as an inherent thing. You just need to find the good ones. ;)
My recently acquired 64c has a metal heatshield that makes contact with the CPU, SID and VIC-II - and each contact point has thermal compound applied. Is mine a common variation?
Have a Merry Christmas!! 💪🎅👍
Great video, and looking forward to the next one.
is there a shop I can go to for c64 parts?
I want to replace all the capacitors and such, basically all the things that should be replaced. also is the good site that acts as a walkthrough for that sort of thing?
+onedeadsaint here's a place in the UK or you can simply read the ratings on your caps and use an electronics supplier. www.retroleum.co.uk/c64-capacitors
RetroManCave thank you very much, sir. do you recommend any good sites for walkthroughs on checking and replacing parts. I have a c64 that I bought a few months back and I'm looking to fix it up. the person I bought it from said powered on, but I haven't done that myself cause I knew about the power issues. thanks, again! love the channel
onedeadsaint perhaps this will help from msmadlemon th-cam.com/video/Yj07tNj2EzU/w-d-xo.html or also be sure to check Jan Betas channel
RetroManCave just started checking out jans channel from your link in the description and I will now check out this new link. thank you very much!
Capacitors and the like are bog-standard components found in pretty much everything made in many decades.
You don't need any kind of specialist suppliers for stuff like that.
But you might need to look a bit harder if you need to replace something like the SID chip or even the CPU.
Technically WDC still manufactures brand new 65c02, and the 16 bit 65c802 and 65c816 chips, but while those are great for messing around with, I don't think they can be used as direct replacements of chips in older systems. (maybe in theory, but I suspect it would require quite a lot of work to adapt it. Even just the fact that the modern chips can run at up to 14 mhz might be an issue.)
Really though, if you need to replace anything like that, you're probably well outside the realms of basic restoration, and into either major repairs, or heavy modifications of your system...
Is it ok to put heat sinks smaller than the chip? Will it improve situation or make it worse when it comes to heat?
The SD-Card reader looks cute
Did you replace the the cap under the shield on the rf modulator?
@RetroManCave, where can I find/buy one of those key cap pulling tools?
Here you go www.amazon.co.uk/Filco-Black-Key-Puller/dp/B003047ZW4
Jeezus, that cartridge loud enough for ya? :p Almost blindingly bright, that green.
ChozoSR388 hah you certainly don't see many fluorescent green carts that's true
Hey guys, late to the party, but where can I buy these particular heatsinks please?
Here you go www.retroleum.co.uk/c64-repairs-and-mods 👌
You've used a music by Mordi. Cool! :)
If you got a brand new case, might as well go for brand new keys too for complete package.
+failing@commenting Why not, but can you buy brand new C64 keys?
I don't know, to be honest.
+RetroManCave You can get replacement keys, but usually these are taken off salvaged units and have some yellowing. As for *new* keys, there was an indiegogo project about two years ago, but I don't know if they're ever going to do another production run (it cost 30,000 euro for the first run; they were selling them for about 21 euro per set, plus shipping). I suppose you could go to the website linked below and try to contact them to see if they still have any replacement sets in the original color (or plans to do another production run):
phase5.eu/contact-us/
Oh, related to an earlier comment about the Commodore 64 label not matching, these guys do *not* have the license to reproduce the original Commodore logo, so you can't get a new key that is an exact match for the Commodore key either. You'll have to settle for the retro-brighted one.
But what will you do with the original case? Why not clean that and retrobright it so as to keep the computer more original? It's not like the original case was damaged right? Just needed some TLC.
gnarlin good question, we found in part one (and the donor also advised) that it's not the original case. I therefore used it as a license to take this approach without feeling bad about it. I'll restore the old case to save a future system, perhaps one with major cosmetic damage.
I was about to suggest that myself..fix it up in your spare time, and keep it around as a spare. I miss my old C64C..and never did get around to trying out the 128, since the one I had showed up around the same time as my Amiga, and I used that instead, since it could do things better online.
I've replaced the linear regulator in a couple of c64/c16 PSU with buck voltage regulators, they run a hell of alot cooler than the LM7805.
To solder on old board, use always flux
As someone who old enough to remember what beige boxes like the C64 used to look like - beige - I'm suspicious the retro brighting process takes out way too much colour.
Jonathan Pearce I too am sensitive to (and old enough to remember first hand) originality. Retrobrite reverses chemical reaction, from my experience it has never taken a plastic beyond the original shade. Perhaps that's the science of it or perhaps that's the weak British sunshine. I do understand though the division in opinions and try to remain faithful to the origins of the machines I work with as you'll find in my other restorations.
RetroManCave I suppose there are always photographs which can be used as objective reference. Maybe I just remember 80s being more brown than they were :)
Mighty C64 Mods!
There is also Ray Carlsen, who builds reproduction PSUs and sells them, among other useful hardware. I've seen other replacement PSUs elsewhere, but I don't know if any of them are any good. personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/ There's also some repair resources there, so it's a useful site to have.
That spring under "P" key should go under spacebar :) Also, let me know if you want brand new springs - I'll send you a package :) I've recently created a batch and these and are available through www.retro-cloud.eu :)
Can someone please make photo of components of that power supply?
I got it damaged the way it is explained in this video, - it began giving overvoltage of 5.5 volts (this became known to me at the proper time and C64 did not get damage).
But I find no list of components of this particular power supply.
Especially I would like to know the amount of electrolytic capacitors it has.
Somehow I forgot which ones exactly mine had.
I broke the epoxy to get up to its content (well, that was trashy a bit, but the components did not get smashed).
What are you using to pull keys off and where can I get it? Thanks.
A "key cap puller" and on Amazon for about £2
There is one spring that is larger then the others, it's supposed to go under the spacebar. In your video it seems to go under the letter P ;-)
Yes indeed another viewer has spotted this. I can't say it feels any different but I'll swap them around as that's where it's meant to be! Well spotted!
I suppose that you could wire in a fuse to protect the computer if you really had to.
Where can you buy the cable saver? (somewhere in Europe)
I'm having trouble myself. I found one on ebay from an Australian seller but I can't vouch for it until it arrives. There are also PSU's for sale in Poland with over voltage protection etc. Have an ebay search for c64 power saver or psu
Ok thx! Merry Christmas ;-)
Great video as always.
cheers Mr Mongoose, thanks for watching
I don't know quite why but the badge on the new case not matching the old label is driving me crazy!
+Tamitha Tindall me too :) I'll be trying to fix that with hot air. Finishing touches :D
It looked like you put the longer Spacebar spring on the P key!
You are correct and it has been spotted by previous commentators - The spring is now where it belongs :D.
Amazing! I only spotted this because I made literally the exact same mistake ~ 24 hours before you posted this video :)
Hotplate Labs hehe easily done! What have you been working on?
Building up an icomp.de C64 Reloaded MKII board in one of the old Kickstarter 64C cases. Next step is to make a new Cherry MX keyboard for it, but until then I thought I'd clean up a classic keyboard for testing. They're really depressing keyboards compared to modern systems!
Hotplate Labs very nice! Yes Commodore keyboards are mostly poor save for a few mechanical oddities like a limited run in the A500. The Acorn Electron keyboard is fantastic in comparison and often coverted to a USB keyboard
This might have been said already - too many comments to check - but don't use that two-sided tape to adhere the heatsinks to the chips. Unless it's specifically stated that it's thermal tape (and if that's the case then ignore this whole comment), you're impeding heat transfer rather than enhancing it. Rather, use proper thermal epoxy (or mix some two-part epoxy with thermal goop for PC heatsinks - you can find the correct quantities if you search for DIY thermal epoxy).
fallingwater it is indeed 3M thermal tape specifically for the purpose but thanks for checking and for your suggestion
This was - as always - very good and informative video. What bugs the me most (being from central "eastern" Europe) is that during my childhood, we were still a communist country, ripped away from the rest of the western Europe. Therefore, as much as I love these Commodore 64 videos, it bears no memories for me. Most of us had different types of 8bit computers, like Didaktik (which was a ZX Spectrum clone). I was around for model M which was visually already very different from ZX (and when the the rest of the western world was already beginning to rock their x86es), and that model is connected to my childhood memories by a steel chain. Right at the edge of the so-called velvet revolution Skalica made the last and very pointless attempt to move a little closer to its competition attaching a 3.5" drive to model M, which was called Didaktik Compact. They'd call it " a gate to a world of professional computers". If only, if only... It of course never took off. It's pity there's nobody like you doing videos about those forgotten computers. I'd love to restore one, but I can do only "monkey see, monkey do" repairs, 'cause I'm completely incompetent, so no go for me on that :D
I'd love to get my hands on some eastern European tech but it's hard to come by here. Perhaps some of Bazza's videos would bring back some nostalgia, such as this: th-cam.com/video/lokKpr4lux0/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, I'll give it a chance. If you really are interested in our eastern stuff, I believe I can be of some assistance here later on. I'll get back to you as soon as I'll find one model M that does not look like "kakatuti" since it will be your first (and for many viewers too). They came painted in grey, but never mind that, they can still get yellow plus they peel. I will also try to find a piece with a working power supply, or at least a power supply (a challenge for you). And mainly - a piece that will be a little less costly than a combined value of both my kidneys :D When they work, they can get a little un-cheap. Then you'll be probably faced with sticky keys (meaning when you press them, you're done for and you have to disassemble the whole thing) and some other delightful quirks. You'll need an analog tape recorder (separate diskette drives cost like a whole diamond mine if you can find one, which you can't), a TV and some programs. I myself have none, so I can at least look for a game on tape or so. It should be compatible with ZX stuff most of the time too, but not always. So let me know if you're into it. I'll contact you for an address and send it your way then.
If it's still got the same edge connector as the Sinclair machines (or, even if all the signals are still present), in theory it may work with the various DIV sd card devices, which is a great way to shortcut the whole tape/floppy malarkey.
Edman amazing! If you drop me an email on retromancave at gmail I can provide my address!
There is some kind of connector, but since I'm not skilled in electronics, I have no idea what it is and what it is capable of. I've been told that it will not be compatible with anything. Even joysticks have to be proprietary and made for Didaktik, nothing else will work - unless of course you're good at modding, which I'm not :D
Funny what TH-cam decided to show me as a video title... A Restoration (almost) Trash :D
+Edman hah that's some unfortunate snipping
Great vid as always! Wish there was a way to pull the original case sticker and transfer it to the new case. Perhaps I'm just to anal about that sort of thing.
Mentat001 yes that annoys me too. I wonder if a little heat might lift it. If it does I'll put it in pt3
Awesome video as always 👍
You might have wanted to swap the logos though C64 Vs C64 Personal Computer it's different I think.
You know when Han Solo gets encased in carbon freeze, yeah? Well this is nothing like that. ;p
As an aside, one argument against retrobrite (btw the new case seems a good idea) is it affects the provenance/patina. #rbneo
Also, this: th-cam.com/video/vK1e5k9O3jg/w-d-xo.html
+ObsoletePowerCorrupts it's a point of contention for many that's for sure. With this C64 I wasn't too concerned about mixing it up with a new case as the old one was not the original to the board. I watched a restoration of a 60s Lamborghini recently and it was highly praised for having the original paint, but of course it was stored under cover and looked after its entire life. Very few systems are cared for in the same way. I do love restoring systems back to their original shade, but also wish their was a better way of doing it. Oh well, in this instance I can enjoy the new case and keep the old safely near by.
I think, seeing as a c64 gets called a "breadbin" (well some do), a person can safely say to their breadbin " _consider yourself part of the furniture_ ". That means a "patina" pertains to its "provenance", rather than it being a beat-up motor. In fact, some people build computers into actual desks. Discuss. #WuvJoy
That was disturbing!
Did you read the description? :)
Great vid, thanks!
Anyone else getting deja-vu from this?
Good video..thanks
You Git! You needz to paint it red to make it go FASTAAA! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! ;) #scnr
8bitguy had a c64 dying because of the PSU overvoltage
The case looks very authentic but they should have gone the extra mile and replicate the label. I wonder why it looks like that, maybe some weird post-Commodore licensing problem?
+Amerigo Costa I'm thinking you're right on that one. I am going to try a little hot air to unstick the old label in pt3
+Amerigo Costa I think you're right. The Commodore trademark is, as of 16 December 2013, officially owned by a company called "C= Holdings" (formerly Commodore International B.V.) Their trademark specifically includes the hardware, which probably includes the labels. If so, you could not replicate the label without first paying a licensing fee and being licensed by C= Holdings.
(The trademark does *not* include apparel, so if you want to print T-shirts with the Commodore logo on them, go right ahead.)
EDIT: Confirmed. The label is almost certainly part of the trademark. I was checking to see if RMC could get new keys to go with that new case, and I found some... but the guys who made them said that they didn't have the license to make a new Commodore key that was an exact match for the original Commodore logo. If they can't print keys with the Commodore logo, it's a pretty safe assumption that you can't make an exact match of the label without paying for a production license from C= Holdings.
Nice
Can you please play music on the floppy drive?
+soupisgdfood Do you have any requests?
RetroManCave I don’t know what’s available, just that its possible.
isnt it more the Sam Coupe that needs the spoilers. :/
1531 > 1530
Was that an actually tupperware bowl?!
+The Chris hey this is a RETRO man cave after all. More tupperware I say.
My gran just called....... She wants her bowls back!
Tape between chips and the heat-sinks??? Really? Is it special tape?
+chongtak it's 3M thermally conductive tape designed precisely for this use.
Yes, it's thermal tape meant for small heat-sinks. As long as you use good quality thermal tape you should be OK. 3M brand is one of the best. Sometimes heat-sinks come with cheap tape. Never use that stuff.
Yep, the proper 3M stuff is great.
But, be aware of the fake "3M" branded stuff too.
It's common to see that stuff when ordering pre-taped heatsinks from China etc., and I haven't yet looked into ways of identifying the fake stuff.
btw, the black anodised heatsinks genuinely dissipate the heat better. :p
Some people will argue that machines usually worked OK without heatsinks for over 30 years, but if you really care about preserving them for longer, then I can't see the harm in spending a bit extra on a few heatsinks for the hotter chips.
What often kills chips is actually the thermal cycling (and I don't mean riding a bicycle while wearing a jumper. lol)
The expansion and contraction of the chip package and leadframe can eventually cause the wire bonds to break.
The silicon chips themselves are normally very robust unless supplied too much voltage, or zapped by ESD (like the C64 CIA chips, if you touch the joystick port pins).
The chips can still have problems with things like moisture ingress though.
I need to stop saying "stuff" so much. lol
That's very cool, thank you for the information.
I just can't understand why you have to input a load command to load a disk. Even the much older Apple ][ didn't have to do that, so it is impossible to justify.
"Even the much older Apple ][ didn't have to do that"... *only* if you specified an autoboot program when you formatted the disk. For example, if you formatted the disk with INIT HELLO it would look for a program called HELLO when you turned on the computer.
Of course, HELLO could just be a program that doesn't actually *do* anything, in which case you still have to LOAD (or BLOAD) programs like normal.
On the Commodore, the disk drive was a "smart" drive... it's literally a computer by itself, with its own RAM, ROM, and CPU. For a long time, *nobody else* had smart drives like that... you either needed a special interface card or you had to load the disk operating system into the computer's RAM (or both). So the autoboot function was built into the interface card or the disk operating system.
Commodore's disk operating system was built into the disk drive, not into the computer. And *that* is why it doesn't have an autoboot feature. The benefit is that you get to use *all* the computer's RAM. You don't have to reserve part of your RAM for the disk drive to use.
My dad had an Apple ][. All of the program disks booted automatically. The Atari 1050 disk drive would also boot automatically with every disk, and it was a 'smart' drive. Interesting information, though.
As for the Apple II: Of course they did. I just mentioned the whole INIT {name} thing, right? It would automatically format a blank disk, and then save the BASIC program in memory to the disk. When you turned on the computer, the first thing it did was check to see if there was a program with the name you specified. If there was, it would load and run it automatically. Of course, this only worked for Applesoft BASIC programs; if you wanted it to automatically run a machine language program instead, you had to use a sector editor and directly change the contents of track $00, sector $0D, byte $42 from $00 to $14 (this tells it to use BRUN instead of RUN).
As for the Atari 1050 drive being 'smart'... that's true, but you *still* had to load DOS into the system RAM, which is why you couldn't use a disk drive unless you had at least 48k of RAM. You probably didn't notice, because by the time the Atari 800 reached the market, the price of RAM had started to drop, so eventually *all* Atari computers shipped with 48k already installed. The only reason you *wouldn't* have 48k is if you got a computer that was manufactured in the first year or so.
Not only that, but because Atari DOS used 128 bytes per sector (instead of 256 bytes per sector like *everyone else* did), the older Atari 810 disk drive only held 90k per disk, compared to Commodore's 170k per disk or Apple's 140k. The 1050 supported Enhanced Density disks, which had a limit of 130k. Out of that 90k (or 130k), about 38k was eaten by DOS.SYS, DUP.SYS, RAMDISK.COM and MEM.SAV, leaving you with just 51.5k (or 91.5k). You could delete MEM.SAV for more space, *if* you didn't mind losing the program you were typing *every time* you used the DOS menu (or bypass the DOS menu and use XIO commands like XIO 253,#1,0,0,"D1:" which would format a blank disk.)
SpearM75503 I own an Atari 800XL with an Atari 1050 disk drive. I never had to load the disk operating system; all I had to do was turn it on. Perhaps it was different with earlier models, but my dad owned a couple of those and I don't recall having to load the disk operating system. I am not saying that I don't like the Commodore 64 (in fact, I happen to like it very much), but having to type in a load command is not very user friendly for first-time users who didn't happen to have a manual.
Infinitecanadian On the Atari 800XL, if you have the Atari BASIC cartridge plugged in, the first thing the Atari does whem you turn it on is to check the first drive in the chain (D1) for a disk with DOS on it. The computer only knows enough about the hard drive to load the first few sectors, which is the "bootstrap" for loading DOS.SYS.
If you're trying to use Atari BASIC, and your first disk (D1:) does not have DOS.SYS on it, the computer displays the message "Error: No DOS" and then just sits there and does nothing. The reason you don't remember having to load the disk operating system is because it does it automatically.
Oh, and by the way, the Atari also did not automatically copy the DOS files to a freshly formatted disk. You had to type DOS (which actually loads DUP.SYS), use Option P from the utility menu to format a blank disk, and then use Option H to write the DOS files to it. You mean to tell me you've *never* seen this screen? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_DOS#/media/File:Ataridos-2.5.PNG
Woah im early!