You know, this one actually holds some water. My first guess was shapeshifters (like all the green-blue things secretly being shapeshifters which could also work with gothic horror tropes), but this certainly works better.
A slight shift from wizard schools to something more akin to Hermetic Orders and Secret Socieites inspired by real world esoteric societies of the Rennisance would work so well for the plane of innistrad it's not even funny.
@ErikratKhandnalie If you're looking for a fun Blue card from Innistrad I like to build around my I suggest Mind's Dilation. It's so cheesy and expensive, but I love it
I think that WIzards is too constrained by the top down gothic horror idea to really explore this archetype much further, but I do think it could work very well if properly executed.
@@RedBobcatGamesA thought occurs: what happens when you mix a gothic setting with cosmic horror and thalassophobia? You get Innsmouth. We already had the sea, the gothic, and the horror, but now Emrakul is here too. Maybe Her presence can draw the existing Deep Ones to the surface like a rising tide. Tide is a lunar phenomenon, after all... In short: I think the idea of a mysterious seaside town with people who aren't quite human and don't take kindly to outsiders is definitely gothic enough to fit just fine, and the hermetic and arcane traditions that tune into the vast and unfathomable ocean is a great way to flavor blue and green magic. Young adults given in ritual marriage to Dagon, who teaches them the secrets of the ocean in Her school under the waves.
This actually makes me think that it may have been a lovecraftian cosmic horror thing instead. Think of scholars at Miskatonic University trying to unravel the mysteries of the necronomicon. Pirates encountering unknowable horrors out at sea. And all in that New England setting.
We still don't know where Kasmina is from, and a pirate wizard from the eternity's worst plane would have a pretty compelling motivation to try and take over the multiverse. Also her magic turns people into frogs.
Dude I think you're right. It's not much, but her staff looks just like a basic swamp from innistrad. If you compare [WAR 056] Japanese to [SOI 291] by Andreas Rocha, it looks like the same stick. It looks similar in any of her other arts as well, but the Japanese alternate of Kasmina is the closest.
@pvt.dicksimmons2225 Oh wow, yeah those are Crypotolith's created by Nahiri to summon Emrakul. These have power over the Eldrazi, and were shaped by the UG occultists of Innistrad during SOI. This... this lines up!
I conjecture that the reason it was "lost" is because in Shadow's block, the GU theme was Emrakul, look at Coax from the Blind Eternities, Drag Under, Eldritch Evolution, & Grapple with the Past; or that of the 10 cards with emerge 4 are blue, 3 are green, & the only gold one is GU, or that the one spell that Emrakul herself casts in the story, Imprisoned in the Moon, is blue
This is a really interesting analysis, but I want to take it further by offering the gothic component: They're not just Pirate Wizards, they're Thelemic Pirate Wizards. Most of what forms the gothic horror genre today was invented by 18th and 19th century novellists romanticising the sense of mysterious history linked to gothic architecture of the middle ages. This formed part of a wider cultural fascination with the old at the time, that saw nobility become interested in all manner of historical myths, including witchcraft, divination, tarot, and esotericism. Esotericism, including alchemy, is aesthetically quite closely tied to gothic fiction, although it never made it into gothic literature back then. As fantasy genres developed, esotericism became wizardry and ended up cleansed of its eerieness and mythology, replaced by the shiny new enlightened rationality approach. The gothic element lost from literature remained in new-age religions that took inspiration from esotericism, chief and coolest amongst those being Thelema, which these days is often referenced in fantasy works. Thelema has also sometimes been described as the mirrored twin of witchcraft. In other words: There are four basic types of magic in western fantasy tradition, tied to the four basic worldviews of importance across the West at the time: Christianity, Paganism, Enlightened Thinking, and Esotericism. Christianity and Paganism are already strongly associated with the middle ages and earlier, so fit right into gothic no questions asked, the latter becoming "witchcraft". Enlightened Thinking is directly at odds with the gothic, which embraces emotion and uncertainty, so the wizards who treat magic as a science feel out of place in gothic horror, unless they're Frankenstein-style mad scientists who are able to retain an emotional aspect by basically being bad at science. Then there's esotericism, which loves the archaic and the mysterious, but attempts to approach it from an analytical perspective. They're occultists, people who study the imaginary as if it were real, people who are fascinated by mythology not because they wish to worship anything but because they wish to understand everything. Those are your gothic wizards. And they were definitely the first ones to embrace the Eldrazi when they showed up.
@@RedBobcatGames You could easily describe the ones that weren't changed as "occultists/warlocks who finally saw an Elder god from beyond dimensions manifest itself in their realm". They could very well be emboldened by this validation of their beliefs and be trying to find a way to free Emrakul or otherwise once again open the way.
@@RedBobcatGames As a bonus thing, look at Emerge, the Eldrazi mechanic in EMN. 2 Black cards, 3 Green Cards, 4 Blue, and one Blue/Green Card. That and a load of other Eldrazi cards seem primarily associated with Blue and Green during the invasion, which makes me think that those who were associated with these wizards were absorbed into Emrakul's Presence.
The Planeswalkers guides to Innistrad mention that Nephalia sailors, smuglers, and fishers have their own style of magic to navigate the seas while Plane Shift: Innistrad mentions that a PC wizard can be an “Avacynian Archmage”. So lore wise, it makes sense that the plane would have magic schools to train new sailors and church wizards.
Pirates aren't even that tonally inconsistent when you consider that a lot of gothic horror does take place near the sea and in this sense has overlap with Lovecraftian horror which innistrad has as well and it also has eldritch horror.
@@RedBobcatGames The allusion to Lovecraft works on a ton of levels too, obviously the main one being Nephalia's coastal cults. I know Krothuss is Blue/Black, but it seems to be implied that there's more than just him under the sea, and colour pie wise, seeking the knowledge of a primeval order is incredibly Blue/Green. Obviously it could feel a bit like a retread of Shadow Over Innistrad but I think the wizards being functional cultists by virtue of their pursuit of information "humanity isn't meant to know" would make it different enough than a huge cataclysm. That being said, them butting up against the growing worship of the harvest deities could also be a cool angle.
It seems we even have a name for these wizards. The Skifsang as mentioned on Chant of the Skifsang. The flavor text reads “The skifsang, seafarers of Nephalia, craft spells like other sailors craft nets-making them strong enough to snare even the deadliest catch.” So yeah pirate wizards basically. Would be interesting to see them touch on in a future set.
I should note that the Innistrad wizards (including the archmages mentioned) are actually part of the church - they’re in blue, green, and red because those are the secondary colors of the three archangels. The thing that makes them distinct from other spellcasters is that they're from bloodlines that have been blessed by the archangels in question. It's possible that the reason they were forgotten on our 3rd visit to the plane was because of the death of 2/3 of the archangels
During Eldritch Moon, Innistrad did have a Blue/Green faction: Eldrazi, and the Cultists that Worshipped them. The Eldrazi probably won't be able to take that role again, but perhaps Horrors could fill their role?
Would love to see cultists returned again (though maybe without the actual eldarzi). Imo the children of the corn stuff is probably the coolest bit of midnight hunt, maybe after a time skip innestrad comes to forget the trevails and a sect who worship the moon and her Kin 'emerge'.
I would LOVE to get a 5 colour Emerge commander at some point. I'd run all the emerge Eldrazi (of course) but those Eldrazi Werewolves and those meld cards too. It would be terrible, but I'd love it
@@RedBobcatGames Honestly, considering how Horrors are usually linked to the ocean, the two concepts could be melded (heh) together. Imagine a group of Pirate Wizards who study the strange creatures of the deep in order to further their understanding of magic.
This is where I was in the first 5 mins but the vid is very persuasive, like we've heard how they workshopped Innistrad and just wrote spooky things in a brainstorm and theres no way Eldritch Horror didn't come up and when they went back they certainly explored that theme. They probably sidelined it a bit because that was a LONG time ago and they were admittedly cashing in on Twilight, The Walking Dead etc. prime zombie/vampire/werewolf media age of OG Innistrad. When that zeitgeist had passed, and return to Innistrad the Eldritch(read: Eldrazi) Horror was definitely more leaned into straight up being the narrative arc of the new Gatewatch and Ugin and everything. Both makes sense, because we never got an answer, we get to chose one, and choose your own ending Horror, that's a genre too.
This lines up with an idea I had for a re-re-re-visit to Innistrad which takes place several decades into the future and Innistrad has become the scientific romanticism plane (think Jules Verne and H.G. Wells) with an ocean horror story. The basic premise is that Liesa and SIgarda unite the various human factions into a single group against the Phyrexians. Together with groups like the necro alchemists experimenting with the fallen corpses of phyrexians humanity rapidly advanced the technological development of the plane. Innistrad in this story is one where the humans are finally the dominant force of the plane with technology pushing back the horrors of the plane. However, the antagonist faction are a group of secretive green-blue mystics led by an Aleister Crowley like figure who worship something from within the deep of Innistrad's oceans.
Runo Stromkirk would force his way into that group if he's still about. I honestly wish I understood what his card from DBL was about. Did he... turn into his god? Or, did he die when he summoned it? Or are both sides of his card just representing two beings and they fact it transforms means nothing? Very confusing. They did the same thing with an Ludevic card
@@RedBobcatGames I think Runo is like Extus and Awaken the Blood Avatar. And like poor Extus, Runo summoned his kraken god which then proceeded to eat him.
@@RedBobcatGames If we're talking about the Crimson Vow one, on the black and white alt art you can see a tiny little Runo floating in front of Krothuss. Seems to confirm that he's summoning rather than actually transforming.
@donniejefferson9554 Well look at that. Thank you! Of course, now I've gone from being confused about these cards to REALLY disliking them. If you want two different creatures, just print two different cards. Now in a game of commander, you can never have both on the battlefield at once. Infuriating!
WB is absolutely NOT for the benefit of humanity no matter what Sorin tells anybody or himself. It’s about maintaining the status quo. WB cards in Innistrad give while also taking. Everything has a cost and often that comes is the life of someone. As for Sorin, everything he does is to soothe his ego, encourage sympathy or to engender a situation in which all parties treat him favorably. The only time he does anything for anybody else it is solely driven by a desire to make “management” of the plane easier for him so that he may have more time to feel sorry for himself.
@@RedBobcatGames I have long thought that she was a storyline character that got benched and was temporarily forgotten until they needed to fill out the lineup of Short Story Focus characters. She honestly feels more like a Commander product tie-in than anything else.
Exactly, Sorin is the type of person whose bold and radical solutions to problems also happen to be the one that inconveniences their lifestyle as little as possible
I have many many thoughts on Sorin, and am planning on doing a video on them at some point. But A. the video will be like 2 hours long, and B. I'm not sure i'm the best person to discuss it. If ever I collab with another MtG youtuber watch this space haha
@@RedBobcatGames @silvermyr might be a good choice if you want to discuss the personalities or morality of characters based on flavour text, tertiary material and the implications of mechanical effects. He’s well into this kinda stuff.😅
I really like this theory, and I think it has legs. I don't think it's quite as specific as "pirate wizards", but rather the more a pessimistic, practical side of wizardry on such a dire plane. They don't have the luxury to be just a university, a place of pure learning, so they focus their efforts on more in-the-moment styles of education and goals. And if you've graduated with a suite of very powerful survival skills? Why not become a pirate, an explorer, or use what you know to better your life directly. I like the reading of it's wizardry as a trade. Pragmatic wizards. Which does mean you get wizard pirates.
Oh that's a very cool idea. And "pirate" is just a subset of these wizards. That would also explain why some of them become Alchemists in the forest. Yeah, this works
it is also worth remembering that "soulbond" mechanic was slightly pushed into blue green. later on, clues fell into that blue green slot. i think it has always been the "mysteries" color pair. thats why tamiyo was in those colors as a researcher.
This was my thought as well. UG feels very much like the culmination of the mysteries within Innistrad. The things that aren't necessarily horrors, but that we don't fully understand on the plane. Hence why a lot of the green blue cards seem so muddled when it comes to creature type, because they are more closely tied to a theme rather than a tribe.
@@Timmir00Something I remember thinking about as "where could Innistrad go after Emrakul" involved a single line from I think the original guide to the plane: Innistrad used to have elves, but they went extinct. And how is *that* even possible? Just dying on Innistrad is next to impossible, let alone vanishing without a trace. I imagine the moon shifting and opening up clearings in the Ulvenwald that are suddenly possible to find on purpose, long earthen barrows surrounded by unknown runes, full of eerily-preserved bodies that are not merely dead but *inanimate* in a way that makes them immune to necromancy. Guarded by... not spirits, exactly, but the elves' mindless memories of themselves, speaking no language and thinking no thoughts and obliterating intruders with powerful magic they seem to cast purely on instinct. Tones of the Green Children of Woolpit, and Arthur Machen's "The White People", and kodama, and the Bloodborne bath messengers, and more subtly of alien abductions and "The Stone Tape". I feel like that fits in nicely with UG and the theme of mysteries and occult explorers.
Innistrad having Earthsea-style wizards actually makes sense to me.That series has some fun dark bits (like the Nameless Ones) and I could definitely see pirate-wizards as a archetype.
Your video makes so much sense. UG can be Knowledge (Blue) tempered by Wisdom (Green), by scholarly study (Blue) in harmony with the world around us (Green). On a dark world like Innistrad, UG sages who learn and live quietly (as opposed to all the ruckus and trouble of UB and UR mages) does seem to complete the circle of human thaumaturgy of that plane. It's only at first glance that it seems ill-fitting with the setting but, hey, we can take their going under everyone's radar as living up to what their color pair is about. I like it!
Thank you, as I said at first glance it seems out of place. But when you stop and think about it, I think it all works nicely. Good comment, thank you again
I think the main issue blue green on innistrad has is that it's very similar to the identity of blue green in eventide, where it gets to be extremely philosophical in its depth of understanding and veneration of the natural world, working through metaphor and mysticism, revelling in the power of old stories and archives and the like, and I'd honestly love to see it return in innistrad since it does fit, that sort of enigmatic arcane knowledge makes for an excellent way to tackle things, that sort of maddening knowledge, peering into the abyss of the earth or the sea and finding amazing power hidden beneath, leaning harder into that would be great.
Yeah, having spoken to a bunch of people in the comments I'm now starting think a lot of those cultists that worshipped Emrakul were probably those wizards I mentioned here
@@RedBobcatGames she is a well of untapped power after all, I'm sure if we do get focus on them it'll be as proper culty wizards and scholars fallen to her sway even at the distance the moon puts between them. it's some classic "dug too greedy and too deeply" type stuff maybe give us some mutant fish people or something, really hammer it home
Super interesting, and I now wish they'd done more with this idea! The wild mystics of Innistrad. But now I want to try and do SOMETHING with the idea; I think the Simic Gandalf would fit the idea of an explorer wizard, but then we're in big spells territory... It's him or Radagast, but he's all about the birds and beasts of the plane.
An additional bit of support, not necessarily in line with the wizard theme, but certainly in line with blue/green being associated with sailors and seafaring is Suspicious Stowaway/Seafaring Werewolf, the only blue/green werewolf in the game.
Yes. This is actually one of the cards that first got me thinking up this theory. But that was when these sets first released and I am so annoyed at myself for having forgotten to include it here
Pirate Wizard Scholars actually feels like a pretty natural consequence of one plane whole heartedly embracing religion and death but forgetting about most other arcane arts.
OHHH yeah that's a good one! That's a REALLY good one. I totally missed that, and Insect Token Creatures are green too! Awww man, the videos already out now!
UG makes me think (extremely superficially) shipwreck in the middle of the woods, and doesn't *that* feel like a surreal horror mystery premise a la Twin Peaks?
Interesting theory but I think you may be wrong. All the blue cards you talked about for wizards completely fall into what blue/red does and it doesn't tie much into green due to that. Instead, I think you missed the concept of what blue/green is. All 9 of the other color pairs are tangible, we know what they are. Blue/Green is the unknown and the fear that comes from it. Don't go out into the woods at night, you don't know what's out there. Be careful of water, you don't know what lurks in it. At it's core, it's a fear everyone has but hard to put a finger on. If you look at the cards that fall into those categories, it starts to make more sense. And it's also why Eldrazi was in blue/green cause they are an unknown.
I've seen a couple of people say this in the comments and you know what, I think you're on to something. For me, I'd have liked it if they have defined this undefinable aspect a bit more, maybe with cards that tie it all together somehow, or an enchantment literally called "The Unknown" or something. As it stands, I look at all the frogs and spiders and stuff and just sort of scratch my head
@@RedBobcatGames Again, it's something hard to make tangible but the theme is there. There is a fear of certain things like frogs and spiders that don't exactly fall into any of the other tropes being explored by the other colors. This is more psychological horror in nature, phobias and fears as well as the things that will get you if you don't listen to your gut. Dreamroot Cascade's flavor text is basically what the pair is about.
I think we can still marry the two concepts here. If green/blue is the unknown, then by extension, anything that's not a mindless creature is something that explores the unknown. Green/Blue humans are indeed Wizards, Pirates, and Wizard Pirates because they explore this unknown, whether it be across the land, the sea, or in the mind. They are those drawn to the unknown, thereby making the unknown ever more enticing.
I think they should lean into the unknown horrors vibe by making the creature type of UG... Horrors. Ooze horrors, frog horrors, etc. They already have several, but they messed up by making the signpost uncommon a spider that makes insects because that stepped on the toes of BG identity in those sets. Also as someone that tried to draft UG several times in both those sets it was a rough archetype to play lol
my idea, following old universal movie monsters, was that the lost creature type could have been the creature from the black lagoon. UG seems to fit pretty well
Oh that's a good shout. I'm surprised actually because I don't think we've seen any references to the Creature from the Black Lagoon in any of those sets. Weird, seems like an obvvious pick
Yes, it's mostly blue. But there are some cards with green like Sheltering Word, Memorie's Journey, Alchemist's Refuge and Rain of Thorns that seem to imply they're part of some unseen G/U archetype. It's the rest of the green cards that are missing mostly
...I just wrote a whole thesis in a different post about what I imagined about the elves! Short version: Going extinct sounds incredibly difficult on a plane where coming back to life is easy, and I imagine the last remnants of the elves being mindless illusions that somehow use runic magic instinctively, reminiscent of alien abductions and fairy rings and kodama, still guarding their barrow-tombs in the Ulvenwald where they so permanently obliterated their spirits as to make their corpses resurrection-proof.
I think a fun fit for innistrad for blue green would be an archetype surrounding Dr. Jeckl and Mr. Hyde as a link to simics normal advancement and a more "primitive" and not religious way for humans to fight the unnatural beasts of Innistrad
We actually already had one in Civilized Scholar, but it was blue red. Which I was always okay with. Made sense Hyde would be a rage monster. But you're right, there's room to explore the trope in blue green too and perhaps more interestingly done aswell
You have good evidence that there are wizards on Innistrad and that deserves to be explored more. But the evidence that they're simic is pretty poor. What you showed was almost entirely blue with hardly any green wizardry.
Very true. I guess the evidence comes from a few cards like that Alchemist's refuge and the odd green spell like rain of thorns and sheltering word. But it's not much admittedly
Its such a forgotten thing about innistrad that the DnD document for Innistrad doesn't even mention these wizards but it mentions all the others "Wizards are often Avacynian archmages, but can also take up more sinister vocations-ghoul-callers, skaberen, necro-alchemists, mad scientists, and cultists."
Green-Blue is quintessential wizard to me. My favorite deck I have is Blue-Green Wizards focusing around drawing. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased as I started collecting around Strixhaven.
@@RedBobcatGames I looked for her, and she is actually named Avabruk Caretaker. In hindsight, it was a bit silly of me to specify green werewolf in a deck where thats a whole faction. The main win condition was either Triskadecaphile or win with the amount of advantage because of ramp and draw. She was there to help prolong the game if I needed her, but actually finding the card irl was an ordeal because apparently I took her out and put her in a box (mentally) labelled, "reconsider in case of regret". I totally forgot that box existed.
As much as i love the idea of "Pirate wizard school", I'm personally not really convinced. I actually do see a theme in the simic cards: Nature magic. Grolnok and Slogurk are just really big animals, and Altered Ego is just an extreme version of those animal that make themselves look like something more dangerous. Innistrad is a very hostile place, so it makes sense that the nature there has to be more extreme to survive. Even something like Lashweed lurker is just an Eldrazi-corrupted version of some animal. In opposition to golgari, which seems to be more inherently hostile and sinister, simic is neutral nature. Golgari is a snaping turtle that bites of your foot. Simic is the poisonous frog that accidentally kills you because it happened to land on your hand. As for cards like Alchemist's Refuge, and Galvanic alchemist, they are about using nature as a conduit for magic. Rain of Thorns and Trackers Insight is just someone using the magic of the forest.
I think wizards would be a good bet. I think every plane has wizards, but it’s important to realize it may not be as developed in certain planes (such as planes where wizards are probably thwarted quite regularly due to werewolves, vampires, and hordes of zombies.)
In canon the seas there don't have mist and fog, but instead thousands of spirits floating above their sunk ships and that's just such a cool idea, I can't believe the cards have never really touched upon it
Ultimately the problem with having wizards as a tribe theme on Innistrad is that the tribes of innistrad are all races: humans, werewolves, vampires, zombies, wizards don't really fit in there. Most if not all the wizards are humans, and rather than being part of some secret simic tribe they're made to fill in the blue portion of 5C humans. To be clear, I'd love if wotc appreciated this aspect of the plane more. Imagine how fun it would be if you had simic wizaeds that you could splash either black or red into, but i don't think it's all that realistic at this point. Personally I think they'd just be better off finding something new in Simic to find on innistrad, maybe by exploring a new continent on the plane. All the same, this was a fun thought exercise. Much appreciated!
I could see it being the sort of antithesis of the blue/black themed magic-science. Lots of unnatural, frankenstein-esque experiementation happens in those colours, but blue/green seem to kinda just be...creatures? So instead of teaching stitchers to make horrible abominations, the UG wizards are out in their bog cabins teaching people how to care for the slimes and why you shouldn't feed the frogs (seriously, whats wrong with the frogs on innistrad?). I want to say its more natural and holistic magic, but i'm not sure if those are really the right words to use.
No I get you, that makes sense. There's honestly not a massive amount of overlap between the alchemist style cabin in the woods cards, and the sea faring wizard cards. BUT that is a direction I'd like to see them explore, and I think being one with the creatures of nature works perfecly with that too. Captain of the Mists already sort of had that implication by working with the elements. I can see it
@@RedBobcatGames Your idea of a school would make a lot of sense, though. Maybe the alchemists and magic pirates have the same education, but use it for different purposes? I mean, alchemists and sailors are both masters of their elements. They'd have to learn somewhere.
I was thinking it's obviously Cosmic Horror for the first 5 mins but the vid is very persuasive, like we've heard how they workshopped Innistrad and just wrote spooky things in a brainstorm and theres no way Eldritch Horror didn't come up and when they went back they certainly explored that theme. They probably sidelined it a bit because that was a LONG time ago and they were admittedly cashing in on Twilight, The Walking Dead etc. prime zombie/vampire/werewolf media age of OG Innistrad. When that zeitgeist had passed, and return to Innistrad the Eldritch(read: Eldrazi) Horror was definitely more leaned into straight up being the narrative arc of the new Gatewatch and Ugin and everything. Both makes sense, because we never got an answer, we get to chose one, and choose your own ending Horror, that's a genre too.
I think its similar to the Dark Sun problem for WotC; the Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic setting where the start of the story is the world being destroyed. However as players played in the setting and writers wrote books in the setting, there were those that began to push the timeline of the story into a point where it was no longer post-apocalypse, because the characters eventually repaired the damage to the world and defeated the entire appeal of the setting to begin with. After a point, there was an editorial rule that froze undoing the damage or moving the world's timeline too far. Having a band of highly competent mages would inevitably lead someone on the creative team to start solving the eternal horror aspect of Innstrad, because a school of pirate-wizard-adventurers would eventually start picking at the fabric of their reality. One would either ignite a spark or become a Planeswalker's companion. The mystery needs to stay a mystery, and I think that's why they're there, but not there.
Well we could play into that. Maybe they a secret cult? There are lots of occulists on Innistrad, but they all worship the Eldrazi or Demons. Maybe we make these ones worship those sea monsters Runo Stromkirk is always going on about. OR we could make them not very good haha. Like the Skifsang, have all their magic be about controlling boats and not great at killing vampires or whatever? That would certainly give them more of a "exploring the unknown" vibe, which could lead to a lot of horror stories indeed
@@RedBobcatGames I can totally see working that into their identity as UG. They're in possession of the truth, but are either too secretive or too powerless to do anything anyway, so they're a non-entity in planar politics. You can fight monsters until one kills you, or you can live a relatively sane and profitable life as a mage-smuggler. A smart mage would leave the vampires and werewolves alone. It also makes for a funny foil to the Simic.
You know, normally I get information from these sorts of videos that I already pretty much realized.. kudos, this was an original and well presented take. I now really want to see more of the pirate wizards of innistrad.
I think U/G could be a cool Horror tribal (kindred?) theme with a transform mechanic like werewolves so green could support transform more generally in draft.
I think you have a great point, whether the mages are linked to a great school, secret orders, or even just aristocratic houses, they're definitely present and powerful. The issue is, with everything that's happened, including the apocalypse, wizards haven't printed a single legend or notable group, which doesn't make much sense, but it feels like they're unlikely to change at this point.
Yeah, I think if we do go back to Innistrad we'd be more likely to see like a pirate fish man / creature from the black lagoon type than an actual wizard. But that could still work though
(Trying not to spoil the video here)I think having this faction could tie a few loos ends in Innistrad flavor wise. We don't have a faction that embodies the phycological horror, or an eldric abomination sides of the plane. Perhaps this faction could embody a Lovcraftian side of the plane, folks living on the edge of sanity dealing with forces that defy comprehension.
Interesting! I've been running Innistrad as a D&D campaign for a few years now and you're right, something is missing. I usually run it as "arcane magic is forbidden, and those who practice it are hunted by the Inquisition." These archmages almost feel like Rogue Traders from *Warhammer 40K* - powerful and connected enough to flaunt the rules everyone else must follow. Thanks for this! This is really helpful for my game!
No worries. Check out the card Chant of the Skifsang if you're looking for inspiration too. That also seems to imply the existence of seafaring wizards
a group of sea faring divination wizards plumbing the deepest depths and the artic ice for Eldritch Horrors feels like it could be very fitting for both a relatively low magic horror plane and Magic lore as a whole. youve got your Cthulhus and Marit Lages right there
Does sound right. But I do also just enjoy the "monsters" that are in UG, like Grolnok and Slogurk. Monsters that don't do things with the dead like the ones in BG. Also clues had a lot of synergy in UG, though only on our second visit.
See I think these can go hand in hand though, if the alchemists that are referenced are studying, or working with those strange eldritch creatures. Same can go for all the sea monsters we see too
As one who started his collection on a box of Avacyn Restored commons, this makes all the wizardy cards make sense, and I hadn’t even noticed the paradoxically invisible presence of wizardry on Innistrad
The idea of more traditional wizards in gothic horror actually seems narratively cohesive when you imagine something like a younger person stumbling across an ancient family book in the attic and studying magic or getting jumped in the woods by monsters and being saved by a reclusive man who lives outside of town. There's also the angle of Sypha and the speakers from castlevania. Also, with how twisted and strange the leylines are on innistrad, wizards who have to train each other or do adventuring/exploring to find and study the leylines so they can actually do powerful magic seem like a cool idea to me.
Holy cow, just came across your channel and I am so happy to see this kind of in-depth look into Innistrad. It is my fav plane by far and I have an Innistrad Cube (with every card that depicts Innistrad being eligible for it) and I just love everything about Innistrad ngl. This theory definitely holds some water.
I loved this so so much! I really appreciate your perspective and how you tied flavor to color to lore and back again. I wonder what other mysteries like this are out there!
Fantastic theory about my favourite plane- what a treat. Also I think it is notable too that many of the cards shown were either At The Shore or Literally Manipulating Water, and I feel that just as many things on Innistrad have a special relationship to the moon, it's likely Innistrad Wizards have a special relationship with the tide and waves- which is traditionally a Blue-Green concept in MtG. Which would also make sense of their magic weakening in the events of Midnight hunt- not strictly because Avacyn is missing, but because Eldritch Moon left the moon... well, Eldritch.
I saw a post talking about this today, saying the now extinct elves of innistrad used to take up this archetype, a more arcane version of the simic, studying nature and developing spells.
Love this idea. The idea of combining a wizard school with a pirate crew (as well as a secret society or esoteric order for some gothic horror colour) works really well.
I never really thought about it because I had a Blue Green Soulbond deck back in Avacyn Restored that made use of the Flash from Alchemist's refuge. You've made a good case though.
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Alchemist Wizard Detectives, but I don't think they really focused on the theme clearly. Delver of Secrets is a perfect example of this.
Though your interpretation of blue green works to, using the "deeper"/"older"/"truer" nature of the plane and driving individuals forward with "study"/"teaching"/"learning" of that nature. I just think that blue green is just so stuck in the simic thoughtset that some party whether designers, writers, or players will revolt at trying something different (basically make creature, make creature more interesting, and have some kind of defense for it in your hand).
There's room to explore a bunch of aspects. I hope we see something fresh if we ever return to the plane. (And by "fresh" I mean Pirate Wizards because I just love that idea so much haha)
Pre-Shadows and how it pivoted Innistrad to cosmic horror fully, an old pitch I had was introducing Moonfolk (distinct from Kamigawa's soratami) as inhuman abductors, blending faefolk stories with alien abductions and tying them to the weird moon. A representation of the fear of the alien. Which I think would fit in the green-blue space.
Oh that's cool. There's that card from Midnight Hunt which shows a baby being swapped with a changling in the crib that would suit this sort of vibe very well
"thats a hell of a mystery no one thought was a mystery and didnt even really need solving but damn if it didnt just get solved so nice work" -Dave Strider
This is a question I’ve sought to answer before and it’s nice to see such a spotlight cast on it! I wish they’d kept up the green blue clue theme that was somewhat present in shadows, it’d mesh so well with the idea of wizards and researchers, hoping to advance Innistrad beyond the backwater dark ages setting, setting out into the seas and forests to discover and catalogue the old magic, rather than being consumed by it like the bg or rg archetypes
See, I'm totally on board. But I'd also love to see horror from other cultures explored too. I'm envisioning a new set, still on Innistrad but using the enemy colour pairs to do 5 brand new archetypes, one of which is the pirate wizards, and the rest are things like evil Djinn or Rakshasa or something?
For what it's worth, green blue did have an identity in one innistrad set: In Eldritch Moon, the eldrazi are most represented in green and blue cards, with more emerge cards in green and blue, and the only two color emerge card in Simic
@@RedBobcatGames Someone else mentioned that UG could be Secret Societies, which have significant overlap with Eldritch Cultists during the events of Eldritch Moon, while also being your idea of formal wizard schools, since Secret Societies were teachers of occult magiks. Probably not pirates tho lol
@@RedBobcatGames huh, I'm not sure why but my reply isn't showing up anymore uhh...summary in case it doesn't come back: UG could represent Secret Societies, which can be both occult wizards and eldritch cults
Regarding Nephalia: I am pretty sure that Naphalia is the Blue Black location of the plane. The art on Nephalia Academy is where "Rooftop Storm" takes place with Stitcher Geralf. We also have Nephalia Drownyard. We do have flavor text of Hadaken, alchemist of Nephalia on the card Thunderbolt which says, “My next aerial design will use less metal.” there is also a U/R producing land called Stormcarved Coast which says, "Frequent, violent storms shape the Nephalia coastline, sculpting cliffs and caves where monsters often lurk." If I had to bet, the Nephalia Academy is mostly where Ghoulcallers and alchemists learn. Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia is quotd many times nd evnetually got his own card. Heartless Summoning quotes another ghoulcaller of Nephalia, Enslow. The card Equestrian Skill states, "From the jagged peaks of Stensia, to the tangled woods of Kessig, to the bogs of Nephalia, the Gavony Riders prepare for all terrain." The bogs of Nephalia. Geistcatcher's Rig says, "The rigs were outlawed except in Nephalia, where malign spirits are as plentiful as crazed inventors." So, again, I feel that - with Soul Sperator as an example - we probably have alchemists, Ghoulcallers, and Geistcatchers [Ghostbusters] at Nephalia - NOT a Wizard school.
Oh sure, but then like I say the card for Nephalia Academy isn't the right colours anyway. It was more of a passing though, which I think you've just proven to be incorrect
Something to add about pirate wizards and gothic horror is the terror of the unknown depths. Many monsters and nightmares can lurk just beneath the surface of the water. Perhaps some of their studies and adventures could have some learning or attempting to harness that which lurks below. A Moby Dick with magic and extra horror would be neat to see on the plane
I'm absolutely surprised you didn't mention the most iconic wizard from the first set, Snapcaster mage. Which also shared the flash theme with alchemist refuge.
Yeah, I did go back and forth on that. See, I think he might be a geistmage because his arm contraption with the goo in it looks a bit like those ghostbuster vacuum things we see from other geistmages on the plane. But also, maybe that goo is the same stuff from the card "Alchemist's Vial" in Magic Origins, which is supposedly set on Innistrad. So it's really hard to say
"Witch" probably carries a Rakdos connotation, but that's what made me notice the lean toward flying, animation, frogs, and fog. The educational institution as mentors or folklore doesn't make it less blue.
i thought the theme was going to be mystery, with all the strange creatures and weird spells in the colors but this makes more sense and also is much more thematically satisfactory. Also secret pirate wizards hiding from us as players is sick
Innistrad as a plane always focused on 5 main creature types in the Ally colors. WG - Humans, GR - Werewolves, RB - Vampires, UB - Zombies, and UW - Spirits Mechanically speaking, these are the only creature archetypes that exist and they have always existed in every Innistrad set. You mentioned WR being the strength and vengeance of man, WB being contradictions, BG being the dangers of the wild, and UR being mad scientists (I would argue more about the mad pursuit of knowledge). As you described, they are more so about an underlying concept or theme rather than a type or creature (except for how you described UR of course but that is tangential). In this sense, Green Blue is about the circle of life or forces of nature and doesn't need a binding creature type. Every set in the plane had a GU self mill archetype (exception EMN?). Every signpost either had flashback or an ability that scaled with your graveyard size. I just wanted to focus on the signposts, plenty of rare GU cards *and* mono colored cards also have the same synergies. From a flavor perspective, GU has a similar range of creatures as all of the other enemy colors. Amongst even UR cards, they have as many horrors as they do wizards. GU in general has 'natural' creatures: insects, spiders, oozes, plants, horrors, & frogs. Wurms and fungus are prevalent in monocolor. These creatures make sense because they are all part of the Innistrad food chain. Plants grow, insects and spiders will eat them, wurms will eat those, die and decompose and oozes and funguses will convert those dead bodies into nutrients for the plants and farmers to continue the cycle. And as for self mill being better in UB, not to be contrarian, but absolutely not. First, Green has had a significant graveyard package in each innistrad set (exception EMN?), and second, UG did self mill in a mechanically distinct way to UB. GU cards cared about the quantity of cards in your graveyard, whereas UB had you exile them as additional cost to cast spells, reminiscent of how the stitchers make zombie collages. Even in the original innistrad, the top meta draft deck was a GU self mill deck, splashing black for the flashback of spider spawning. For every BU Geralf card, there is a G eccentric farmer type card that will fill your graveyard in much the same way. Saying "if I want a deck that self mills, this probably isn't it" isn't the correct analysis from a mechanical perspective. The problem with pirate wizards is that except for the lands, every single card shown was blue. The idea of the pirate wizards isn't a blue green thing, it is just blue. The alchemists work as a theme for two colors because they are effectively blue wizards turned mad scientists, thus warranting red. They still use magic and if you subtract the madness & aggressive experimenting, you are left with simply wizards... to include every single card you referenced as evidence. Wizards are fine as a blue theme, it isn't out of place because that's what they've always been, and even continue to be in Innistrad The only connection green has is that there was a land in a forest, and there was another land by the sea in the hinterlands... green probably because it was next to a forest. TL;DR Green Blue on Innistrad has an incredibly unique identity that is even more consistent than all of the other enemy color pairs across the sets. Mechanically, it is an archetype that uses creatures and card selection spells that both fill your graveyard, and scale off of it passively (In a distinct way separate from blue black). Flavorfully, it represents the forces of nature, and the cycle of life/rebirth. It's creatures encompasses all creatures in the food chain, the creatures in the identity grow, get eaten, die, decompose, and grow again. *Green Blue on Innistrad was never missing anything, and even if it was, it wouldn't be GU pirate wizards.* Edit: I made it more condensed, and also p.s. nice video I liked it
Tbh, I don’t think you quite managed to prove the connection between this wizard culture on Innistrad and the Green-Blue color pair. Specifically the green half of the pair. It feels like you might as well just argue that wizards are just a general theme in Blue (on Innistrad as on other planes). It feels like a stretch to try to tie Green into it.
The connections are thin, but they are there. Alchemist's refuge, Sheltering Word and Rain of Thorns all lean that way. Like I say, it's not much, but if you look you can find it
Now you have me thinking about how fun it would be to explore the seas of Innistrad in a set. There could be a spin on The Bermuda Triangle. The creatures of the deep that Runo Stormkirk works with could have a spotlight. Mother. Loving. Cthulhu. Why hasn't this been done before?
Right? And there's already a few giant sea monsters on the plane. Mid had that multi-armed lobster thing. Creature from the Ice is a classic. I think you're right and it would be interesting to explore
Honestly, Vilespawn Spider milling in UG reminds me of the Dark Ascension preconstructed decks, where one was a Simic self mill with the intent of getting a 10/10 Zombie Treefolk onto the field that cost 1 generic mana less for every creature in your graveyard. All of the green spells with flashback in the deck had blue in their flashback costs as well. So while Vilespawn Spider feels out of place in the newer sets on Innistrad, I think it would have fit nicely back when Dark Ascension released.
The only issue is that nobody wants to see a new inistrad set after the disaster that was crimson vow and midnight hunt, so this probably wont get explored.
You know, this one actually holds some water. My first guess was shapeshifters (like all the green-blue things secretly being shapeshifters which could also work with gothic horror tropes), but this certainly works better.
Who says they aren't shapeshifters too? How would you ever know?
@@RedBobcatGames dun dun dun
@@RedBobcatGames Damn, shapeshifting pirate wizards huh? Now that's a set I can get behind.
A slight shift from wizard schools to something more akin to Hermetic Orders and Secret Socieites inspired by real world esoteric societies of the Rennisance would work so well for the plane of innistrad it's not even funny.
Very true. There's a bunch of cultists on the plane, but they're all demon worshippers. We could do so much more
Hermetic orders is exactly the concept I was trying to think of but couldn't place!
This would finally get me to play blue
@ErikratKhandnalie If you're looking for a fun Blue card from Innistrad I like to build around my I suggest Mind's Dilation. It's so cheesy and expensive, but I love it
Agreed. Occultism would fit well with the rest of the plane
Pirate Wizards fighting Vampire Aristocrats and Druidic Werewolves sounds TOO good to ignore.
Right? I want them to go back again to Innistrad just for this alone
I think that WIzards is too constrained by the top down gothic horror idea to really explore this archetype much further, but I do think it could work very well if properly executed.
How about adventuring piratre wizards who fight sea monsters and dig up treasure?
@@silphonym maybe its all those guys stuck in Maine looking for Cthulhu
Does it also have zombie ninjas?
This is probably the most positive wizards video ive seen in months and its still about things they cut or were too scared to try
Ha! I do create them on occasion
Yeah modern wizards hasn't done a lot of good stuff recently.
They're not all bad, but they do certainly seem to live in the shadow of Harsbro these days
this would neatly fit into the whole "foggy coastal town in (new) england with mysteries and disappearances" trope and im fully on board
Right? I'd love to see it explored more. Hopefully we'll go back to the plane at some point
@@RedBobcatGamesA thought occurs: what happens when you mix a gothic setting with cosmic horror and thalassophobia? You get Innsmouth.
We already had the sea, the gothic, and the horror, but now Emrakul is here too. Maybe Her presence can draw the existing Deep Ones to the surface like a rising tide. Tide is a lunar phenomenon, after all...
In short: I think the idea of a mysterious seaside town with people who aren't quite human and don't take kindly to outsiders is definitely gothic enough to fit just fine, and the hermetic and arcane traditions that tune into the vast and unfathomable ocean is a great way to flavor blue and green magic. Young adults given in ritual marriage to Dagon, who teaches them the secrets of the ocean in Her school under the waves.
@NXTangl See? That all sounds great. I think this idea has legs
This actually makes me think that it may have been a lovecraftian cosmic horror thing instead. Think of scholars at Miskatonic University trying to unravel the mysteries of the necronomicon. Pirates encountering unknowable horrors out at sea. And all in that New England setting.
@@NXTangllol I saw your comment right after posting mine. Totally agree!
We still don't know where Kasmina is from, and a pirate wizard from the eternity's worst plane would have a pretty compelling motivation to try and take over the multiverse. Also her magic turns people into frogs.
Well, damn. Because now if this isn't the case I'm going to be disappointed
Really makes Galvanic Alchemist look like her now that you bring that up lol. Her art in stryxhaven even has her surrounded by owls.
Kasmina is trying to take over the multiverse...? Get it girlboss!
Dude I think you're right. It's not much, but her staff looks just like a basic swamp from innistrad. If you compare [WAR 056] Japanese to [SOI 291] by Andreas Rocha, it looks like the same stick. It looks similar in any of her other arts as well, but the Japanese alternate of Kasmina is the closest.
@pvt.dicksimmons2225 Oh wow, yeah those are Crypotolith's created by Nahiri to summon Emrakul. These have power over the Eldrazi, and were shaped by the UG occultists of Innistrad during SOI. This... this lines up!
I think a card that neatly supports this theory is Suspicious Stowaway//Seafaring Werewolf, which is to say, I'm very on board with this theory
How did I miss this? This card was literally one of the cards that got me originally thinking about this... and I didn't include it in the video...
I conjecture that the reason it was "lost" is because in Shadow's block, the GU theme was Emrakul, look at Coax from the Blind Eternities, Drag Under, Eldritch Evolution, & Grapple with the Past; or that of the 10 cards with emerge 4 are blue, 3 are green, & the only gold one is GU, or that the one spell that Emrakul herself casts in the story, Imprisoned in the Moon, is blue
Very true. Perhaps all those missing wizards became the cultists we see?
Just like Bloodborne!
This is a really interesting analysis, but I want to take it further by offering the gothic component: They're not just Pirate Wizards, they're Thelemic Pirate Wizards.
Most of what forms the gothic horror genre today was invented by 18th and 19th century novellists romanticising the sense of mysterious history linked to gothic architecture of the middle ages. This formed part of a wider cultural fascination with the old at the time, that saw nobility become interested in all manner of historical myths, including witchcraft, divination, tarot, and esotericism. Esotericism, including alchemy, is aesthetically quite closely tied to gothic fiction, although it never made it into gothic literature back then. As fantasy genres developed, esotericism became wizardry and ended up cleansed of its eerieness and mythology, replaced by the shiny new enlightened rationality approach. The gothic element lost from literature remained in new-age religions that took inspiration from esotericism, chief and coolest amongst those being Thelema, which these days is often referenced in fantasy works. Thelema has also sometimes been described as the mirrored twin of witchcraft.
In other words: There are four basic types of magic in western fantasy tradition, tied to the four basic worldviews of importance across the West at the time: Christianity, Paganism, Enlightened Thinking, and Esotericism. Christianity and Paganism are already strongly associated with the middle ages and earlier, so fit right into gothic no questions asked, the latter becoming "witchcraft". Enlightened Thinking is directly at odds with the gothic, which embraces emotion and uncertainty, so the wizards who treat magic as a science feel out of place in gothic horror, unless they're Frankenstein-style mad scientists who are able to retain an emotional aspect by basically being bad at science. Then there's esotericism, which loves the archaic and the mysterious, but attempts to approach it from an analytical perspective. They're occultists, people who study the imaginary as if it were real, people who are fascinated by mythology not because they wish to worship anything but because they wish to understand everything. Those are your gothic wizards. And they were definitely the first ones to embrace the Eldrazi when they showed up.
Oh boy, maybe that's why we don't see many of them in the later sets then? They all got mushed up into one by Emrakul. It's a good theory, I like it!
@@RedBobcatGames You could easily describe the ones that weren't changed as "occultists/warlocks who finally saw an Elder god from beyond dimensions manifest itself in their realm". They could very well be emboldened by this validation of their beliefs and be trying to find a way to free Emrakul or otherwise once again open the way.
@mawtaus And now from Modern Horizons we see that she's out of the moon... You could be on to something
You are the coolest!!!
@@RedBobcatGames As a bonus thing, look at Emerge, the Eldrazi mechanic in EMN. 2 Black cards, 3 Green Cards, 4 Blue, and one Blue/Green Card. That and a load of other Eldrazi cards seem primarily associated with Blue and Green during the invasion, which makes me think that those who were associated with these wizards were absorbed into Emrakul's Presence.
The Planeswalkers guides to Innistrad mention that Nephalia sailors, smuglers, and fishers have their own style of magic to navigate the seas while Plane Shift: Innistrad mentions that a PC wizard can be an “Avacynian Archmage”. So lore wise, it makes sense that the plane would have magic schools to train new sailors and church wizards.
Slam dunk! I love it! I'm taking this as proof! Thank you for the comment!
Pirates aren't even that tonally inconsistent when you consider that a lot of gothic horror does take place near the sea and in this sense has overlap with Lovecraftian horror which innistrad has as well and it also has eldritch horror.
Very true. I think had I framed this as "Occultists" rather than "Wizards" it would have felt a lot more natural from the off
@@RedBobcatGames The allusion to Lovecraft works on a ton of levels too, obviously the main one being Nephalia's coastal cults. I know Krothuss is Blue/Black, but it seems to be implied that there's more than just him under the sea, and colour pie wise, seeking the knowledge of a primeval order is incredibly Blue/Green.
Obviously it could feel a bit like a retread of Shadow Over Innistrad but I think the wizards being functional cultists by virtue of their pursuit of information "humanity isn't meant to know" would make it different enough than a huge cataclysm. That being said, them butting up against the growing worship of the harvest deities could also be a cool angle.
Oh yeah, that could be fun to see actually. And would give us space to print a bunch more magic users in Green for both groups
It seems we even have a name for these wizards. The Skifsang as mentioned on Chant of the Skifsang. The flavor text reads “The skifsang, seafarers of Nephalia, craft spells like other sailors craft nets-making them strong enough to snare even the deadliest catch.” So yeah pirate wizards basically. Would be interesting to see them touch on in a future set.
Can't believe I didn't spot this and make the connection! It 100% should have been in the video
Innistrad: The Tide of the Skifsang
I should note that the Innistrad wizards (including the archmages mentioned) are actually part of the church - they’re in blue, green, and red because those are the secondary colors of the three archangels. The thing that makes them distinct from other spellcasters is that they're from bloodlines that have been blessed by the archangels in question. It's possible that the reason they were forgotten on our 3rd visit to the plane was because of the death of 2/3 of the archangels
Oh that's interesting. Think we'll see a bunch of Black mana wizards now that Liesa is back?
@@RedBobcatGames Unsure what the future of Innistrad holds, tbh
Yeah. I'm hoping that Remaster that's been annoucned does well and reignites interest and passion in the plane
During Eldritch Moon, Innistrad did have a Blue/Green faction: Eldrazi, and the Cultists that Worshipped them.
The Eldrazi probably won't be able to take that role again, but perhaps Horrors could fill their role?
Yeah that's fair. Though I feel like cultists are only a stones throw away from pirate wizards tbf
Would love to see cultists returned again (though maybe without the actual eldarzi). Imo the children of the corn stuff is probably the coolest bit of midnight hunt, maybe after a time skip innestrad comes to forget the trevails and a sect who worship the moon and her Kin 'emerge'.
I would LOVE to get a 5 colour Emerge commander at some point. I'd run all the emerge Eldrazi (of course) but those Eldrazi Werewolves and those meld cards too. It would be terrible, but I'd love it
@@RedBobcatGames
Honestly, considering how Horrors are usually linked to the ocean, the two concepts could be melded (heh) together.
Imagine a group of Pirate Wizards who study the strange creatures of the deep in order to further their understanding of magic.
This is where I was in the first 5 mins but the vid is very persuasive, like we've heard how they workshopped Innistrad and just wrote spooky things in a brainstorm and theres no way Eldritch Horror didn't come up and when they went back they certainly explored that theme. They probably sidelined it a bit because that was a LONG time ago and they were admittedly cashing in on Twilight, The Walking Dead etc. prime zombie/vampire/werewolf media age of OG Innistrad. When that zeitgeist had passed, and return to Innistrad the Eldritch(read: Eldrazi) Horror was definitely more leaned into straight up being the narrative arc of the new Gatewatch and Ugin and everything.
Both makes sense, because we never got an answer, we get to chose one, and choose your own ending Horror, that's a genre too.
This lines up with an idea I had for a re-re-re-visit to Innistrad which takes place several decades into the future and Innistrad has become the scientific romanticism plane (think Jules Verne and H.G. Wells) with an ocean horror story. The basic premise is that Liesa and SIgarda unite the various human factions into a single group against the Phyrexians. Together with groups like the necro alchemists experimenting with the fallen corpses of phyrexians humanity rapidly advanced the technological development of the plane. Innistrad in this story is one where the humans are finally the dominant force of the plane with technology pushing back the horrors of the plane. However, the antagonist faction are a group of secretive green-blue mystics led by an Aleister Crowley like figure who worship something from within the deep of Innistrad's oceans.
Runo Stromkirk would force his way into that group if he's still about. I honestly wish I understood what his card from DBL was about. Did he... turn into his god? Or, did he die when he summoned it? Or are both sides of his card just representing two beings and they fact it transforms means nothing? Very confusing. They did the same thing with an Ludevic card
@@RedBobcatGames I think Runo is like Extus and Awaken the Blood Avatar. And like poor Extus, Runo summoned his kraken god which then proceeded to eat him.
@@imaginarymatter I'm on board with that explanation haha
@@RedBobcatGames If we're talking about the Crimson Vow one, on the black and white alt art you can see a tiny little Runo floating in front of Krothuss. Seems to confirm that he's summoning rather than actually transforming.
@donniejefferson9554 Well look at that. Thank you! Of course, now I've gone from being confused about these cards to REALLY disliking them. If you want two different creatures, just print two different cards. Now in a game of commander, you can never have both on the battlefield at once. Infuriating!
WB is absolutely NOT for the benefit of humanity no matter what Sorin tells anybody or himself.
It’s about maintaining the status quo. WB cards in Innistrad give while also taking. Everything has a cost and often that comes is the life of someone.
As for Sorin, everything he does is to soothe his ego, encourage sympathy or to engender a situation in which all parties treat him favorably.
The only time he does anything for anybody else it is solely driven by a desire to make “management” of the plane easier for him so that he may have more time to feel sorry for himself.
what about Liesa?
@@RedBobcatGames I have long thought that she was a storyline character that got benched and was temporarily forgotten until they needed to fill out the lineup of Short Story Focus characters. She honestly feels more like a Commander product tie-in than anything else.
Exactly, Sorin is the type of person whose bold and radical solutions to problems also happen to be the one that inconveniences their lifestyle as little as possible
I have many many thoughts on Sorin, and am planning on doing a video on them at some point. But A. the video will be like 2 hours long, and B. I'm not sure i'm the best person to discuss it. If ever I collab with another MtG youtuber watch this space haha
@@RedBobcatGames @silvermyr might be a good choice if you want to discuss the personalities or morality of characters based on flavour text, tertiary material and the implications of mechanical effects.
He’s well into this kinda stuff.😅
I really like this theory, and I think it has legs. I don't think it's quite as specific as "pirate wizards", but rather the more a pessimistic, practical side of wizardry on such a dire plane. They don't have the luxury to be just a university, a place of pure learning, so they focus their efforts on more in-the-moment styles of education and goals. And if you've graduated with a suite of very powerful survival skills? Why not become a pirate, an explorer, or use what you know to better your life directly.
I like the reading of it's wizardry as a trade. Pragmatic wizards. Which does mean you get wizard pirates.
Oh that's a very cool idea. And "pirate" is just a subset of these wizards. That would also explain why some of them become Alchemists in the forest. Yeah, this works
“Cool as hell” is pretty much all the reasoning I need to overlook “tonally inconsistent”. Frick yeah dude!
The rule of cool, and I really love the idea of pirate wizards!
Thats basically the reasoning for dragons on Innistrad lol
@Lucarioguild7 Yeah true, I do love them
it is also worth remembering that "soulbond" mechanic was slightly pushed into blue green. later on, clues fell into that blue green slot. i think it has always been the "mysteries" color pair. thats why tamiyo was in those colors as a researcher.
Very true. I feel like perhaps there could be some cross over there. Maybe all those pirate wizards became cultists of Emrakul?
This was my thought as well. UG feels very much like the culmination of the mysteries within Innistrad. The things that aren't necessarily horrors, but that we don't fully understand on the plane. Hence why a lot of the green blue cards seem so muddled when it comes to creature type, because they are more closely tied to a theme rather than a tribe.
@@Timmir00Something I remember thinking about as "where could Innistrad go after Emrakul" involved a single line from I think the original guide to the plane: Innistrad used to have elves, but they went extinct.
And how is *that* even possible? Just dying on Innistrad is next to impossible, let alone vanishing without a trace. I imagine the moon shifting and opening up clearings in the Ulvenwald that are suddenly possible to find on purpose, long earthen barrows surrounded by unknown runes, full of eerily-preserved bodies that are not merely dead but *inanimate* in a way that makes them immune to necromancy. Guarded by... not spirits, exactly, but the elves' mindless memories of themselves, speaking no language and thinking no thoughts and obliterating intruders with powerful magic they seem to cast purely on instinct. Tones of the Green Children of Woolpit, and Arthur Machen's "The White People", and kodama, and the Bloodborne bath messengers, and more subtly of alien abductions and "The Stone Tape".
I feel like that fits in nicely with UG and the theme of mysteries and occult explorers.
Innistrad having Earthsea-style wizards actually makes sense to me.That series has some fun dark bits (like the Nameless Ones) and I could definitely see pirate-wizards as a archetype.
I'm unfamiliar with Earthsea, but after a brief google I think I'll have to add it to my reading list. Thanks for the recommendation
Your video makes so much sense. UG can be Knowledge (Blue) tempered by Wisdom (Green), by scholarly study (Blue) in harmony with the world around us (Green). On a dark world like Innistrad, UG sages who learn and live quietly (as opposed to all the ruckus and trouble of UB and UR mages) does seem to complete the circle of human thaumaturgy of that plane. It's only at first glance that it seems ill-fitting with the setting but, hey, we can take their going under everyone's radar as living up to what their color pair is about. I like it!
Thank you, as I said at first glance it seems out of place. But when you stop and think about it, I think it all works nicely. Good comment, thank you again
That's it, you've convinced me. Wizard Pirates indeed need to be on Innistrad next time we visit.
Right? Tell me about it! I'd love to see it explored
I think the main issue blue green on innistrad has is that it's very similar to the identity of blue green in eventide, where it gets to be extremely philosophical in its depth of understanding and veneration of the natural world, working through metaphor and mysticism, revelling in the power of old stories and archives and the like, and I'd honestly love to see it return in innistrad since it does fit, that sort of enigmatic arcane knowledge makes for an excellent way to tackle things, that sort of maddening knowledge, peering into the abyss of the earth or the sea and finding amazing power hidden beneath, leaning harder into that would be great.
Yeah, having spoken to a bunch of people in the comments I'm now starting think a lot of those cultists that worshipped Emrakul were probably those wizards I mentioned here
@@RedBobcatGames she is a well of untapped power after all, I'm sure if we do get focus on them it'll be as proper culty wizards and scholars fallen to her sway even at the distance the moon puts between them. it's some classic "dug too greedy and too deeply" type stuff
maybe give us some mutant fish people or something, really hammer it home
Yeeessss I love it, I can totally see that working
Super interesting, and I now wish they'd done more with this idea! The wild mystics of Innistrad.
But now I want to try and do SOMETHING with the idea; I think the Simic Gandalf would fit the idea of an explorer wizard, but then we're in big spells territory... It's him or Radagast, but he's all about the birds and beasts of the plane.
Throw in some boat vehicles with crew and I'm sold haha
An additional bit of support, not necessarily in line with the wizard theme, but certainly in line with blue/green being associated with sailors and seafaring is Suspicious Stowaway/Seafaring Werewolf, the only blue/green werewolf in the game.
Yes. This is actually one of the cards that first got me thinking up this theory. But that was when these sets first released and I am so annoyed at myself for having forgotten to include it here
This is why we need the original Innistrad style guide
Yeah, things seems to have gotten a bit... weird on the plane recently. I'm really not sure why there was a wedding set. Very odd
Pirate Wizard Scholars actually feels like a pretty natural consequence of one plane whole heartedly embracing religion and death but forgetting about most other arcane arts.
Totally. I'd love to see it explored more
Don't forget the docent of perfection, one wizard who went too far, and turned his students into insects as well.
OHHH yeah that's a good one! That's a REALLY good one. I totally missed that, and Insect Token Creatures are green too! Awww man, the videos already out now!
The missing third set to innistrad 3: midnight hunt, crimson vow, and arcane shipwreck
YES! I WANT IT!
UG makes me think (extremely superficially) shipwreck in the middle of the woods, and doesn't *that* feel like a surreal horror mystery premise a la Twin Peaks?
Interesting theory but I think you may be wrong. All the blue cards you talked about for wizards completely fall into what blue/red does and it doesn't tie much into green due to that. Instead, I think you missed the concept of what blue/green is. All 9 of the other color pairs are tangible, we know what they are. Blue/Green is the unknown and the fear that comes from it. Don't go out into the woods at night, you don't know what's out there. Be careful of water, you don't know what lurks in it. At it's core, it's a fear everyone has but hard to put a finger on. If you look at the cards that fall into those categories, it starts to make more sense. And it's also why Eldrazi was in blue/green cause they are an unknown.
I've seen a couple of people say this in the comments and you know what, I think you're on to something. For me, I'd have liked it if they have defined this undefinable aspect a bit more, maybe with cards that tie it all together somehow, or an enchantment literally called "The Unknown" or something. As it stands, I look at all the frogs and spiders and stuff and just sort of scratch my head
@@RedBobcatGames Again, it's something hard to make tangible but the theme is there. There is a fear of certain things like frogs and spiders that don't exactly fall into any of the other tropes being explored by the other colors. This is more psychological horror in nature, phobias and fears as well as the things that will get you if you don't listen to your gut.
Dreamroot Cascade's flavor text is basically what the pair is about.
I think we can still marry the two concepts here. If green/blue is the unknown, then by extension, anything that's not a mindless creature is something that explores the unknown. Green/Blue humans are indeed Wizards, Pirates, and Wizard Pirates because they explore this unknown, whether it be across the land, the sea, or in the mind. They are those drawn to the unknown, thereby making the unknown ever more enticing.
I think they should lean into the unknown horrors vibe by making the creature type of UG... Horrors. Ooze horrors, frog horrors, etc. They already have several, but they messed up by making the signpost uncommon a spider that makes insects because that stepped on the toes of BG identity in those sets. Also as someone that tried to draft UG several times in both those sets it was a rough archetype to play lol
But where do you go to learn about the unknown? Why school of course.
A strong school of wizards would’ve been a great inclusion for the more cosmic horror elements seen in the later sets. Miskatonic university anyone?!
I'm both glad and very surprised that it's not just me that thinks this would work
Innistrad was SCREAMING for people to build Sultai Graveyard, but it was ruined by the sets surrounding it.
Yeah, I can see that. It's a shame too. I feel like Innsmouth style Fish Men are the most obvious picks for the colour pair way back in the day
my idea, following old universal movie monsters, was that the lost creature type could have been the creature from the black lagoon. UG seems to fit pretty well
Oh that's a good shout. I'm surprised actually because I don't think we've seen any references to the Creature from the Black Lagoon in any of those sets. Weird, seems like an obvvious pick
The only one I can find is whatever thing is represented on Artful Dodge. Some type of amphibian monstrosity
Ohh yeah. I always thought that was like a weird zombie, but looking at it you're right. Look at the eyes and weird gill frill things
I love youtube reccomended sometimes because a channel with less than 5k subscribers pumps out one of the best video's i';ve seen in quite some time
Ayyy, well that's a massive compliment. Thank you!
*hate *worst
I'm not sure why Green is involved.
Every card except two sorceries were blue, and wizards and pirates are both blue classes
Yes, it's mostly blue. But there are some cards with green like Sheltering Word, Memorie's Journey, Alchemist's Refuge and Rain of Thorns that seem to imply they're part of some unseen G/U archetype. It's the rest of the green cards that are missing mostly
"seafaring adventurer wizard pirates" is an insanely cool take on green/blue and now i feel so robbed
Haha, right?! Take Captain of the Mists, expand out from there. I'd love to see it!
One of the most famous and powerful cards from INNISTRAD is a mono blue insect…
Are you saying Delver is a pirate? I would be totally on board with that
Now I'm gonna head canon the missing blue green creatures as once being the now extinct elves on the plane
Maybe they were the ones who created the symbols humans now use but barely scratch the surface of.
Oh this fun, I like this
...I just wrote a whole thesis in a different post about what I imagined about the elves!
Short version: Going extinct sounds incredibly difficult on a plane where coming back to life is easy, and I imagine the last remnants of the elves being mindless illusions that somehow use runic magic instinctively, reminiscent of alien abductions and fairy rings and kodama, still guarding their barrow-tombs in the Ulvenwald where they so permanently obliterated their spirits as to make their corpses resurrection-proof.
@noatrope That sounds sick as hell
You spent so long setting up the reveal for what you thought the archetype should be, that I thought for sure it was going to be "eggs."
Ha! I might have to redo this entire video
I thought you were gonna talk about how devils basically disappeared but I guess they’re technically still there
If these wizards are part of a secret underground sect or something, I can see Elves still being part of it
2:21 well, im NEVER inspired by anything with blue on it,
So you’re not alone.
I mean to be honest that Captain of the Mists was basically the whole reason for this video haha
I think a fun fit for innistrad for blue green would be an archetype surrounding Dr. Jeckl and Mr. Hyde as a link to simics normal advancement and a more "primitive" and not religious way for humans to fight the unnatural beasts of Innistrad
We actually already had one in Civilized Scholar, but it was blue red. Which I was always okay with. Made sense Hyde would be a rage monster. But you're right, there's room to explore the trope in blue green too and perhaps more interestingly done aswell
You have good evidence that there are wizards on Innistrad and that deserves to be explored more. But the evidence that they're simic is pretty poor. What you showed was almost entirely blue with hardly any green wizardry.
Very true. I guess the evidence comes from a few cards like that Alchemist's refuge and the odd green spell like rain of thorns and sheltering word. But it's not much admittedly
Its such a forgotten thing about innistrad that the DnD document for Innistrad doesn't even mention these wizards but it mentions all the others "Wizards are often Avacynian archmages, but can also take up more sinister vocations-ghoul-callers, skaberen, necro-alchemists, mad scientists, and cultists."
I guess at a stretch they could come under the "cultists" umbrella? But I feel like we're doing a lot of leg work there
Maybe the return to return return to innistrad can explore some new parts of the plane once it comes around.
We have to survive the Remaster first. I think that's this year?
@@RedBobcatGames oh geez
“Wizards.”
Oh. I was thinking faeries.
I mean... why not Faerie wizards? That could still work honestly
I like all the Red Bobcat's videos
Thank you!
Me too!
Green-Blue is quintessential wizard to me. My favorite deck I have is Blue-Green Wizards focusing around drawing. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased as I started collecting around Strixhaven.
Well hey, who's to say a couple of those attending Strixhaven didn't start off in Innistrad?
@@RedBobcatGames I don't know about Strixhaven, but that mythic green werewolf lady from Midnight Hunt is a surprisingly important part of the deck.
I suspect you're talking about Arlinn, and she's a big part of the story too. I really like her character
@@RedBobcatGames I looked for her, and she is actually named Avabruk Caretaker. In hindsight, it was a bit silly of me to specify green werewolf in a deck where thats a whole faction. The main win condition was either Triskadecaphile or win with the amount of advantage because of ramp and draw. She was there to help prolong the game if I needed her, but actually finding the card irl was an ordeal because apparently I took her out and put her in a box (mentally) labelled, "reconsider in case of regret". I totally forgot that box existed.
Well! I'm glad I helped you remember it(?). Also, I love that card. I love all the werewolves tbh
As much as i love the idea of "Pirate wizard school", I'm personally not really convinced.
I actually do see a theme in the simic cards: Nature magic.
Grolnok and Slogurk are just really big animals, and Altered Ego is just an extreme version of those animal that make themselves look like something more dangerous. Innistrad is a very hostile place, so it makes sense that the nature there has to be more extreme to survive. Even something like Lashweed lurker is just an Eldrazi-corrupted version of some animal. In opposition to golgari, which seems to be more inherently hostile and sinister, simic is neutral nature. Golgari is a snaping turtle that bites of your foot. Simic is the poisonous frog that accidentally kills you because it happened to land on your hand.
As for cards like Alchemist's Refuge, and Galvanic alchemist, they are about using nature as a conduit for magic. Rain of Thorns and Trackers Insight is just someone using the magic of the forest.
That's interesting. So you're saying Innistrad shapeshifters are basically cameleons? That's interesting, and actually quite terrifying
I think wizards would be a good bet. I think every plane has wizards, but it’s important to realize it may not be as developed in certain planes (such as planes where wizards are probably thwarted quite regularly due to werewolves, vampires, and hordes of zombies.)
Yeah, exactly. In fact that could be a good reason why they've turned to the sea
Innistrad never really resonated with me, but i gotta say, a school of wizard pirates would be epic
In canon the seas there don't have mist and fog, but instead thousands of spirits floating above their sunk ships and that's just such a cool idea, I can't believe the cards have never really touched upon it
Ultimately the problem with having wizards as a tribe theme on Innistrad is that the tribes of innistrad are all races: humans, werewolves, vampires, zombies, wizards don't really fit in there. Most if not all the wizards are humans, and rather than being part of some secret simic tribe they're made to fill in the blue portion of 5C humans.
To be clear, I'd love if wotc appreciated this aspect of the plane more. Imagine how fun it would be if you had simic wizaeds that you could splash either black or red into, but i don't think it's all that realistic at this point. Personally I think they'd just be better off finding something new in Simic to find on innistrad, maybe by exploring a new continent on the plane.
All the same, this was a fun thought exercise. Much appreciated!
Well you're welcome! And thank you for the comment
Pirate wizards would be the first time I'd be on board with pirates
Pun intened? Haha
Well… I’m sold!! 🎉
There’s some real wizard shit happening on Innistrad
Yes! If enough people want it, maybe they'll actually make it happen if we ever go back to the plane?
I could see it being the sort of antithesis of the blue/black themed magic-science. Lots of unnatural, frankenstein-esque experiementation happens in those colours, but blue/green seem to kinda just be...creatures? So instead of teaching stitchers to make horrible abominations, the UG wizards are out in their bog cabins teaching people how to care for the slimes and why you shouldn't feed the frogs (seriously, whats wrong with the frogs on innistrad?). I want to say its more natural and holistic magic, but i'm not sure if those are really the right words to use.
No I get you, that makes sense. There's honestly not a massive amount of overlap between the alchemist style cabin in the woods cards, and the sea faring wizard cards. BUT that is a direction I'd like to see them explore, and I think being one with the creatures of nature works perfecly with that too. Captain of the Mists already sort of had that implication by working with the elements. I can see it
@@RedBobcatGames Your idea of a school would make a lot of sense, though. Maybe the alchemists and magic pirates have the same education, but use it for different purposes? I mean, alchemists and sailors are both masters of their elements. They'd have to learn somewhere.
@@PhoenicopterusR Yeah, especially if the pirates are all bending the nature to their wills. Like you say, they have to learn that somewhere
I was thinking it's obviously Cosmic Horror for the first 5 mins but the vid is very persuasive, like we've heard how they workshopped Innistrad and just wrote spooky things in a brainstorm and theres no way Eldritch Horror didn't come up and when they went back they certainly explored that theme. They probably sidelined it a bit because that was a LONG time ago and they were admittedly cashing in on Twilight, The Walking Dead etc. prime zombie/vampire/werewolf media age of OG Innistrad. When that zeitgeist had passed, and return to Innistrad the Eldritch(read: Eldrazi) Horror was definitely more leaned into straight up being the narrative arc of the new Gatewatch and Ugin and everything.
Both makes sense, because we never got an answer, we get to chose one, and choose your own ending Horror, that's a genre too.
Very true, and I think you're right about how the timeline of events lines up as well. All interesting thoughts
Coast Wizards
Oh my god, how did I not make that connection?!
Wizards of the Coast, even.
This is one of the best and consistent "What If" type videos for MTG I've seen in a long, long time!
Oh, well thank you very much!
nah you're just rambling (jk great video now i want more wizards on innistrad)
Ha, I think you may be right though!
I think its similar to the Dark Sun problem for WotC; the Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic setting where the start of the story is the world being destroyed. However as players played in the setting and writers wrote books in the setting, there were those that began to push the timeline of the story into a point where it was no longer post-apocalypse, because the characters eventually repaired the damage to the world and defeated the entire appeal of the setting to begin with. After a point, there was an editorial rule that froze undoing the damage or moving the world's timeline too far.
Having a band of highly competent mages would inevitably lead someone on the creative team to start solving the eternal horror aspect of Innstrad, because a school of pirate-wizard-adventurers would eventually start picking at the fabric of their reality. One would either ignite a spark or become a Planeswalker's companion. The mystery needs to stay a mystery, and I think that's why they're there, but not there.
Well we could play into that. Maybe they a secret cult? There are lots of occulists on Innistrad, but they all worship the Eldrazi or Demons. Maybe we make these ones worship those sea monsters Runo Stromkirk is always going on about. OR we could make them not very good haha. Like the Skifsang, have all their magic be about controlling boats and not great at killing vampires or whatever? That would certainly give them more of a "exploring the unknown" vibe, which could lead to a lot of horror stories indeed
@@RedBobcatGames I can totally see working that into their identity as UG. They're in possession of the truth, but are either too secretive or too powerless to do anything anyway, so they're a non-entity in planar politics. You can fight monsters until one kills you, or you can live a relatively sane and profitable life as a mage-smuggler. A smart mage would leave the vampires and werewolves alone. It also makes for a funny foil to the Simic.
The more comments I read from you guys the more I want this whole theory to be true haha
You know, normally I get information from these sorts of videos that I already pretty much realized.. kudos, this was an original and well presented take. I now really want to see more of the pirate wizards of innistrad.
Well thank you very much
I think U/G could be a cool Horror tribal (kindred?) theme with a transform mechanic like werewolves so green could support transform more generally in draft.
That would work with all the Shapeshifters on the plane, certainly
@@RedBobcatGames what I like most about your idea is how it brings the idea of Humans appearing in all colors full circle. Great stuff.
@@geoffnaggie961 Thank you!
Theory: The dragons are an invasive species from a continent the seafaring wizards discovered.
Oh yeah, that's a sick idea. I love it!
I think you have a great point, whether the mages are linked to a great school, secret orders, or even just aristocratic houses, they're definitely present and powerful.
The issue is, with everything that's happened, including the apocalypse, wizards haven't printed a single legend or notable group, which doesn't make much sense, but it feels like they're unlikely to change at this point.
Yeah, I think if we do go back to Innistrad we'd be more likely to see like a pirate fish man / creature from the black lagoon type than an actual wizard. But that could still work though
(Trying not to spoil the video here)I think having this faction could tie a few loos ends in Innistrad flavor wise. We don't have a faction that embodies the phycological horror, or an eldric abomination sides of the plane. Perhaps this faction could embody a Lovcraftian side of the plane, folks living on the edge of sanity dealing with forces that defy comprehension.
Yeesss, I love it. Some real lovecraftian sea monster horror themes. Great stuff
Interesting! I've been running Innistrad as a D&D campaign for a few years now and you're right, something is missing.
I usually run it as "arcane magic is forbidden, and those who practice it are hunted by the Inquisition." These archmages almost feel like Rogue Traders from *Warhammer 40K* - powerful and connected enough to flaunt the rules everyone else must follow.
Thanks for this! This is really helpful for my game!
No worries. Check out the card Chant of the Skifsang if you're looking for inspiration too. That also seems to imply the existence of seafaring wizards
a group of sea faring divination wizards plumbing the deepest depths and the artic ice for Eldritch Horrors feels like it could be very fitting for both a relatively low magic horror plane and Magic lore as a whole.
youve got your Cthulhus and Marit Lages right there
Right? I'd love to see it. Plus, do we know what plane Marit Lage is from canonically? Could it actually be Innistrad?
Does sound right. But I do also just enjoy the "monsters" that are in UG, like Grolnok and Slogurk. Monsters that don't do things with the dead like the ones in BG. Also clues had a lot of synergy in UG, though only on our second visit.
See I think these can go hand in hand though, if the alchemists that are referenced are studying, or working with those strange eldritch creatures. Same can go for all the sea monsters we see too
As one who started his collection on a box of Avacyn Restored commons, this makes all the wizardy cards make sense, and I hadn’t even noticed the paradoxically invisible presence of wizardry on Innistrad
Right? So many cards make reference to it, but the "it" is never revealed.
The idea of more traditional wizards in gothic horror actually seems narratively cohesive when you imagine something like a younger person stumbling across an ancient family book in the attic and studying magic or getting jumped in the woods by monsters and being saved by a reclusive man who lives outside of town. There's also the angle of Sypha and the speakers from castlevania.
Also, with how twisted and strange the leylines are on innistrad, wizards who have to train each other or do adventuring/exploring to find and study the leylines so they can actually do powerful magic seem like a cool idea to me.
Yeah, I hope we actually see it explored as a concept if we ever go back to the plane
Holy cow, just came across your channel and I am so happy to see this kind of in-depth look into Innistrad. It is my fav plane by far and I have an Innistrad Cube (with every card that depicts Innistrad being eligible for it) and I just love everything about Innistrad ngl. This theory definitely holds some water.
Oh well welcome, and thank you very much. I also love Innistrad. I really have to fight the urge to not make videos about it back to back haha
This is awesome. Excellent idea! Makes me want to build a cube to explore it. Your description of the archetypes at the start in sublime.
Oh why thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed, and thank you again for such a nice comment
I loved this so so much! I really appreciate your perspective and how you tied flavor to color to lore and back again. I wonder what other mysteries like this are out there!
Give me time, I'm sure I'll cook something else up
Fantastic theory about my favourite plane- what a treat. Also I think it is notable too that many of the cards shown were either At The Shore or Literally Manipulating Water, and I feel that just as many things on Innistrad have a special relationship to the moon, it's likely Innistrad Wizards have a special relationship with the tide and waves- which is traditionally a Blue-Green concept in MtG. Which would also make sense of their magic weakening in the events of Midnight hunt- not strictly because Avacyn is missing, but because Eldritch Moon left the moon... well, Eldritch.
Exactly! I've had the odd comment telling me the themes don't fit for the colours, but I just don't see it. I think it works!
I saw a post talking about this today, saying the now extinct elves of innistrad used to take up this archetype, a more arcane version of the simic, studying nature and developing spells.
You did? Where? Is this theory picking up traction? I'd love to hear what people from WotC think about it
Love this idea. The idea of combining a wizard school with a pirate crew (as well as a secret society or esoteric order for some gothic horror colour) works really well.
Thank you very much
I never really thought about it because I had a Blue Green Soulbond deck back in Avacyn Restored that made use of the Flash from Alchemist's refuge. You've made a good case though.
I always loved Soulbond. I have a whole commander deck about it. It's terrible haha
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Alchemist Wizard Detectives, but I don't think they really focused on the theme clearly. Delver of Secrets is a perfect example of this.
Yeah, true. Though the word "Detective" leaves a bad taste in my mouth after seeing what happened in Karlov Manor
Though your interpretation of blue green works to, using the "deeper"/"older"/"truer" nature of the plane and driving individuals forward with "study"/"teaching"/"learning" of that nature. I just think that blue green is just so stuck in the simic thoughtset that some party whether designers, writers, or players will revolt at trying something different (basically make creature, make creature more interesting, and have some kind of defense for it in your hand).
There's room to explore a bunch of aspects. I hope we see something fresh if we ever return to the plane. (And by "fresh" I mean Pirate Wizards because I just love that idea so much haha)
Pre-Shadows and how it pivoted Innistrad to cosmic horror fully, an old pitch I had was introducing Moonfolk (distinct from Kamigawa's soratami) as inhuman abductors, blending faefolk stories with alien abductions and tying them to the weird moon. A representation of the fear of the alien. Which I think would fit in the green-blue space.
Oh that's cool. There's that card from Midnight Hunt which shows a baby being swapped with a changling in the crib that would suit this sort of vibe very well
"thats a hell of a mystery no one thought was a mystery and didnt even really need solving
but damn if it didnt just get solved so nice work" -Dave Strider
Ha, thank you!
blue and green usually has a lot of nature, i too would think of alchemist, druids, and classical wizards all being blue/green
Yeah exactly, I think it works!
This is a question I’ve sought to answer before and it’s nice to see such a spotlight cast on it! I wish they’d kept up the green blue clue theme that was somewhat present in shadows, it’d mesh so well with the idea of wizards and researchers, hoping to advance Innistrad beyond the backwater dark ages setting, setting out into the seas and forests to discover and catalogue the old magic, rather than being consumed by it like the bg or rg archetypes
See, I'm totally on board. But I'd also love to see horror from other cultures explored too. I'm envisioning a new set, still on Innistrad but using the enemy colour pairs to do 5 brand new archetypes, one of which is the pirate wizards, and the rest are things like evil Djinn or Rakshasa or something?
Never seen your videos before.
But this has convinced me to subscribe and watch more.
Oh cool, thank you and welcome!
That color combination really had the more diverse themes and mechanics across the 7 sets.
Yeah, it was all over the place. I liked a lot of the cards, but I think I'd also liked to have seen so more direction
For what it's worth, green blue did have an identity in one innistrad set:
In Eldritch Moon, the eldrazi are most represented in green and blue cards, with more emerge cards in green and blue, and the only two color emerge card in Simic
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps all these wizards I've spotted were the cultists that worshipped the Eldrazi
@@RedBobcatGames Someone else mentioned that UG could be Secret Societies, which have significant overlap with Eldritch Cultists during the events of Eldritch Moon, while also being your idea of formal wizard schools, since Secret Societies were teachers of occult magiks.
Probably not pirates tho lol
Oh I dunno. Anyone can be a pirate if they try hard enough haha
@@RedBobcatGames huh, I'm not sure why but my reply isn't showing up anymore
uhh...summary in case it doesn't come back: UG could represent Secret Societies, which can be both occult wizards and eldritch cults
Yeah, spot on. I just hope they take to the ocean to battle those giant Innistrad sea monsters whilst being secret and culty!
Regarding Nephalia:
I am pretty sure that Naphalia is the Blue Black location of the plane. The art on Nephalia Academy is where "Rooftop Storm" takes place with Stitcher Geralf. We also have Nephalia Drownyard.
We do have flavor text of Hadaken, alchemist of Nephalia on the card Thunderbolt which says, “My next aerial design will use less metal.”
there is also a U/R producing land called Stormcarved Coast which says, "Frequent, violent storms shape the Nephalia coastline, sculpting cliffs and caves where monsters often lurk."
If I had to bet, the Nephalia Academy is mostly where Ghoulcallers and alchemists learn.
Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia is quotd many times nd evnetually got his own card.
Heartless Summoning quotes another ghoulcaller of Nephalia, Enslow.
The card Equestrian Skill states, "From the jagged peaks of Stensia, to the tangled woods of Kessig, to the bogs of Nephalia, the Gavony Riders prepare for all terrain." The bogs of Nephalia.
Geistcatcher's Rig says, "The rigs were outlawed except in Nephalia, where malign spirits are as plentiful as crazed inventors." So, again, I feel that - with Soul Sperator as an example - we probably have alchemists, Ghoulcallers, and Geistcatchers [Ghostbusters] at Nephalia - NOT a Wizard school.
Oh sure, but then like I say the card for Nephalia Academy isn't the right colours anyway. It was more of a passing though, which I think you've just proven to be incorrect
Something to add about pirate wizards and gothic horror is the terror of the unknown depths. Many monsters and nightmares can lurk just beneath the surface of the water. Perhaps some of their studies and adventures could have some learning or attempting to harness that which lurks below. A Moby Dick with magic and extra horror would be neat to see on the plane
Yeah, we already see a bunch of sea monsters on the plane (and people that worship them) so I think this totally tracks
Instead of traditional wizards they could be made to be more like witchers or monster hunters
Witch hunters would work very well actually. And I've been thinking "occultists" would probably be the best fit
I'm absolutely surprised you didn't mention the most iconic wizard from the first set, Snapcaster mage. Which also shared the flash theme with alchemist refuge.
Yeah, I did go back and forth on that. See, I think he might be a geistmage because his arm contraption with the goo in it looks a bit like those ghostbuster vacuum things we see from other geistmages on the plane. But also, maybe that goo is the same stuff from the card "Alchemist's Vial" in Magic Origins, which is supposedly set on Innistrad. So it's really hard to say
"Witch" probably carries a Rakdos connotation, but that's what made me notice the lean toward flying, animation, frogs, and fog. The educational institution as mentors or folklore doesn't make it less blue.
Fair point
i thought the theme was going to be mystery, with all the strange creatures and weird spells in the colors but this makes more sense and also is much more thematically satisfactory. Also secret pirate wizards hiding from us as players is sick
Right? I love it! Plus it opens up the idea of what's beyond the shores of Innistrad! Horrors from across the sea!
Innistrad as a plane always focused on 5 main creature types in the Ally colors. WG - Humans, GR - Werewolves, RB - Vampires, UB - Zombies, and UW - Spirits
Mechanically speaking, these are the only creature archetypes that exist and they have always existed in every Innistrad set. You mentioned WR being the strength and vengeance of man, WB being contradictions, BG being the dangers of the wild, and UR being mad scientists (I would argue more about the mad pursuit of knowledge). As you described, they are more so about an underlying concept or theme rather than a type or creature (except for how you described UR of course but that is tangential). In this sense, Green Blue is about the circle of life or forces of nature and doesn't need a binding creature type.
Every set in the plane had a GU self mill archetype (exception EMN?). Every signpost either had flashback or an ability that scaled with your graveyard size. I just wanted to focus on the signposts, plenty of rare GU cards *and* mono colored cards also have the same synergies.
From a flavor perspective, GU has a similar range of creatures as all of the other enemy colors. Amongst even UR cards, they have as many horrors as they do wizards. GU in general has 'natural' creatures: insects, spiders, oozes, plants, horrors, & frogs. Wurms and fungus are prevalent in monocolor. These creatures make sense because they are all part of the Innistrad food chain. Plants grow, insects and spiders will eat them, wurms will eat those, die and decompose and oozes and funguses will convert those dead bodies into nutrients for the plants and farmers to continue the cycle.
And as for self mill being better in UB, not to be contrarian, but absolutely not. First, Green has had a significant graveyard package in each innistrad set (exception EMN?), and second, UG did self mill in a mechanically distinct way to UB. GU cards cared about the quantity of cards in your graveyard, whereas UB had you exile them as additional cost to cast spells, reminiscent of how the stitchers make zombie collages.
Even in the original innistrad, the top meta draft deck was a GU self mill deck, splashing black for the flashback of spider spawning. For every BU Geralf card, there is a G eccentric farmer type card that will fill your graveyard in much the same way. Saying "if I want a deck that self mills, this probably isn't it" isn't the correct analysis from a mechanical perspective.
The problem with pirate wizards is that except for the lands, every single card shown was blue. The idea of the pirate wizards isn't a blue green thing, it is just blue. The alchemists work as a theme for two colors because they are effectively blue wizards turned mad scientists, thus warranting red. They still use magic and if you subtract the madness & aggressive experimenting, you are left with simply wizards... to include every single card you referenced as evidence. Wizards are fine as a blue theme, it isn't out of place because that's what they've always been, and even continue to be in Innistrad The only connection green has is that there was a land in a forest, and there was another land by the sea in the hinterlands... green probably because it was next to a forest.
TL;DR
Green Blue on Innistrad has an incredibly unique identity that is even more consistent than all of the other enemy color pairs across the sets. Mechanically, it is an archetype that uses creatures and card selection spells that both fill your graveyard, and scale off of it passively (In a distinct way separate from blue black). Flavorfully, it represents the forces of nature, and the cycle of life/rebirth. It's creatures encompasses all creatures in the food chain, the creatures in the identity grow, get eaten, die, decompose, and grow again. *Green Blue on Innistrad was never missing anything, and even if it was, it wouldn't be GU pirate wizards.*
Edit: I made it more condensed, and also p.s. nice video I liked it
But it could be though, and think about how much fun that would be!
Tbh, I don’t think you quite managed to prove the connection between this wizard culture on Innistrad and the Green-Blue color pair. Specifically the green half of the pair.
It feels like you might as well just argue that wizards are just a general theme in Blue (on Innistrad as on other planes). It feels like a stretch to try to tie Green into it.
The connections are thin, but they are there. Alchemist's refuge, Sheltering Word and Rain of Thorns all lean that way. Like I say, it's not much, but if you look you can find it
I see it know all the ug cards are traditional wizards experiments. Also sailing its a major theme in some classic victorian horror stories.
There's a bucnh of sea monsters depicted on Innistrad. Someone has to deal with them otherwise they'd overrun the place!
Now you have me thinking about how fun it would be to explore the seas of Innistrad in a set. There could be a spin on The Bermuda Triangle. The creatures of the deep that Runo Stormkirk works with could have a spotlight. Mother. Loving. Cthulhu. Why hasn't this been done before?
Right? And there's already a few giant sea monsters on the plane. Mid had that multi-armed lobster thing. Creature from the Ice is a classic. I think you're right and it would be interesting to explore
Honestly, Vilespawn Spider milling in UG reminds me of the Dark Ascension preconstructed decks, where one was a Simic self mill with the intent of getting a 10/10 Zombie Treefolk onto the field that cost 1 generic mana less for every creature in your graveyard. All of the green spells with flashback in the deck had blue in their flashback costs as well. So while Vilespawn Spider feels out of place in the newer sets on Innistrad, I think it would have fit nicely back when Dark Ascension released.
Well that's something at least. I've always thought of it as a bit of an odd duck
Nephalia is a coast on Innistrad where they like to mill and recur or reanimate cards from (underwater) graves, and smuggle things.
Yeah, probably an acedemy for necromancers and stitchers then I'd imagine
My first thought was wizards turning themselves into creatures to explain the weird creatures, but I love your idea too
I mean, your idea still works. Would explain the shapeshifters and cards like Delver of Secrets
The only issue is that nobody wants to see a new inistrad set after the disaster that was crimson vow and midnight hunt, so this probably wont get explored.
Yeah, I'm hoping that the upcoming Innistrad Remastered does well enough to reignite some passion for the plane