As many of you rightfully noted in the comments, this is Moeller's technique. This came as a surprise to me, as I've mostly played by George L. Stone's "Stick Control", "Accents and Rebounds" and then Joe Morello's "Advanced Studies", all of which I highly recommend if you didn't know about them already. However, I think the Moeller's technique, which deals with a three stroke cycle, is only a part of the video. To me at least, the Moeller's technique comes into play at faster speeds, where rebound can dictate the consequential movement of the stick, using the leftover energy produced by the first hit. But in my experience of teaching mostly complete beginners - people who've never held a stick before - Moeller's technique could only be applied once you've developed your wrist motion and learned to unlock it without losing grip of the fulcrum. Hence, I wanted to break down in detail the initial stroke itself, by showing the importance of the hidden upstroke involved. Advanced players might not find this useful because they have developed their sense of rebound and resonance, as well as control over their wrists so long ago, that it becomes natural to them and they assume everyone should be able to pick it up. In my opinion, technique cannot be claimed, rather it can be discovered, as it all comes down to where physics and the laws of motion coincide with the limitations and capabilities of the human body. Let me know your thoughts in the comments. Cheers and thanks for watching!
You're absolutely right. A technique is not the property of someone but rather created by the need of a person. There have been many times in a lot of different arts and sports were people have been using a certain technique that came to them naturally and discovered later that the technique they're using has already a name and was used by someone first and they had absolutely no idea.
This video helped my doubles almost immediately! I would love for you to show some techniques that help with fluidity around the kit :) I am your fan from now on and my biggest learning resource as your explanations dive deep and focus on details. As we all know the Devil is in the details and you've helped me so much already and I've only watched 3 videos and found out I'll need to re learn my singles first then move onto doubles. Also Kick pedal video was amazing !! Keep doing the great job !!
I’m coming back to drumming after a 20 year break. My left hand is awful, just awful. Working through my rudiments and building my hands back up along with limb independence. This is a phenomenal refresher on the double stroke roll. Thank you so much.
Bro, you're **LITERALLY** telling my story. It's actually embarrassing how much atrophy I've experienced in my left hand. The stick is constantly slipping out of my pinch because my "drumstick" muscles (both sides of the thumb at the hand) is non existent anymore. I'm super pissed at myself but not letting it stop me from getting back. It's gonna take a solid year of pad practice to get anywhere close to where I was in my 20's. I've also got tons of motivation now as my son (11yrs old) is now playing and taking lessons. We'll do it together!
@@akrause2004, it get better. I had the same issue, extreme weakness especially in my left hand. Problems dropping the stick while trying to maintain a loose grip. You really have to slow yourself down and build it back up. I have four kids, mortgage, the whole midlife deal so practice time is sparing. I’ve still been able to get a good amount of confidence back with only four hours or so of practice a week while also trying to explore some new ideas. Just enjoy being back on a kit. My wife had to remind me that I’m not going pro and this is supposed to be fun. 😂
I’ve been paying for online drum lessons and this right here is the BEST explanation I’ve seen so far for doubles. And totally FREE! Thanks so much for sharing this with the public. Excellent teacher 👍🏽
Listen man you have really got something here. I have never been successful at the double stroke but I am still a decent drummer. This explanation and technique is the best I have ever seen. Thank you for making this video.
I’ve never had this explained to me better. This is the best example and explanation I’ve ever seen… and I teach drums for a living. Thank you so much.
Very well done this method has proven to be one of the best, I'm re learning it after many years of not playing the drums.. I appreciate I appreciate people putting things like this on TH-cam it really helps a lot of us out thanks again
Having never had actual drum lessons, I've struggled with double-strokes the 20-ish years I've been playing in terms of getting them powerful and even. Until right now I never once heard about inverting it and accenting the "double" to dupe being even. That's brilliant and I am only 39 seconds into this video. And I guess about 5 minutes away from running off to my kit.
It takes some time but once you get it it’s for life. Just remember to pinch with the fingers while keeping the wrist open and you should be fine. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like the technique of this double stroke roll and it's application to beginners. It seems exaggerated but it fully explains how it works and how to get it faster with complete control.
I would like to congratulate you on making a 5 minute video that is only 5:35 long. Too many of these instructional videos have 3 minutes of useful content but are 8-12 minutes long. Oh, and thanks for a great video. Can't wait to start working on this!
TOP OF THE LINE MAN !! (This is for beginners !! Unlike a few other beginner videos I saw). You are amazing but man, the way you explain things in detail, the very best videos on single and double stroke from 50 that I watched so far !! THANK YOU for demystifying it !
@Drum Ape keep 'em coming Mr Ape, I loved the one on how to improve high hat sound ! Simply amazing watching how clear and humble you explain things !! Very grateful with your help, support and time dedicated to the videos. 20 yr guitar player with 2 weeks of drumming at 53yo haha
Very Good Tutorial on stick control. I'm 69 years old, returning to playing drums after a 50 year Hiatus for FUN and a Hobby in Retirement. I am simply grateful to keep the beat and offer some enhancements to fills while playing MY MUSIC (Old , Basic Rock ). Took lessons (maybe 10 or so ) back in 1966. I play by ear and do not read music , other than basic drum measures. I do need to practice more to attain at least half this speed..... THX again. Be safe all and Enjoy the Drums...
Hi Aldo, thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you saying that because a lot of people said it was Moeller haha. I encourage you to dig deeper into reading more complex drum notation as well as other styles like latin and fusion as that would surely make you a better drummer. Keep rocking!
Great in depth instruction. My best explanation is "bounce it twice on each hand". Stick control and height. Muscle memory. Practice, practice, practice.
@@DrumApe I play my doubles by using the push-pull technique. As I go faster, my wrist motion lessens and my arm motion increases slightly. I move my arm slightly forward/down to initial the first bounce. I then use my fingers to bring the sticks in for the second bounce. Is that correct?
Great video. Mentioning that many don't relax their wrist after the second stroke was a good observation I believe that's exactly what's keeping me below 160 bpm, been at that barrier for awhile now.
I think so too, if а muscle is constantly contracted it gets strained and becomes numb, loosing all feeling and control. It can take it, but for short bursts. Cheers
I bet the the 6 people who disliked this video use French grip (thumbs up), and could not use this technique. Incredible break down... THANK YOU for this!
Wow - this is truly awesome. My double strokes are terrible, but your method here is so easy to understand and very logical. I can't wait to start shedding tomorrow! Thank you so much!
As a new drummer I’m practicing very hard at learning these techniques. I practice at least an hour every day, but I feel like I’ve hit a wall. This is the best video I’ve seen so far at showing the exact technique. Can’t wait to try it out!
@@DrumApe thanks for the reply! Quick question. Actually, two. My shin muscles get sore after about 20 mins of playing. Am I hitting the pedal wrong? Also, what two crash cymbals would you recommend for a rock music? I have a 16” fast crash and an 18” fast crash, but they don’t sound great playing (or trying to play) classic rock.
Hi Brian, yes you might be overdoing it, or if you started playing more recently it might just be stress on the muscle, but if it gets unbearable you should see a doctor or stop. But try to unlock the ankle and not use too much force and you should be fine. Rock crash and projection crashes are best for rock and heavier stuff, some brilliant crashes also. Fast crashes are thinner so not very loud. Cheers
@@DrumApe okay thanks! Yeah it’s just muscle soreness, just wasn’t sure if it’s normal or not. I imagine if I keep playing, that muscle will get in shape.
Thank you, this is the best video I’ve found. Right now I just bought a drum pad and I’m looking for exercises to practice. Sadly, I broke my thumb and have a cast. but I’m excited to take it off so I could start practicing
Wow this is so well explained, it made so much sense to me. I cannot wait until I get home later and start doing this - thank you SO much I love your videos 👍🏻
Hey this is the video if anyone here wants to master double stroke or anything else for that matter. I watched other videos but this one is for me. Recommended to anyone .
I'm about a month or 2 into doing doubles practice like this almost every day for 20 minutes or more and finally getting some good doubles! For some reason my weak hand (left) "Learned" how to unlock and snap the wrist over years of doing little doubles here and there on the snare, but my strong hand (right) just did NOT want to let the wrist unlock to get the "pop" needed to get these doubles to work. I have finally powered through this issue though! It really does pay to take it slow and work your way up.
So well explained! Thank you. As a beginner I've watched so many videos on techniques I should be practicing and the more I investigate, the murkier it gets. This video has really given me a clear exercise to focus on where I can see the benefit. Thank you. You mentioned push pull technique is similar but needs to be explained in a different video. Would you consider making a video on this too!? :-)
I’m so glad this video helped you, so nice of you to say. Push pull technique should definitely be a topic for a future video, although I don’t feel I’m proficient enough with that particular technique, at least not as good as some other people’s videos I’ve seen on TH-cam. But I’ll think about it, thanks for your comment.
OMG! That was very very useful for me!! Thank you so much for sharing this with us🙂 Actually I can able to understand clearly... After seeing this video instantly SUBSCRIBED🙂🙂🙂
You sir, just got a sub. Thanks for the great video! I've been playing for over 20 years and keep trying to improve my basics, this is a great exercise to add to the arsenal! Cheers!
You can also do double stroke roll using rebound. Rebound is when you drop something solid on for example a table it jumps few times and the jump height decreases and decrease and you may also see it jumping faster when the jump is lower until until it's stable and doesn't jump again, depending on the material, it can be strong or weak, if you drop something like a stick on a table it will keep jumping and jumping until it stopped it's now standing on the table, so a hard material gives efficient rebound, so if you drop a stick on a pillow or a couch you don't get much rebound since both couch and pillow are soft, but when you play on a concrete, wood, metal or anything that is hard and solid you get a great rebound.
So frustrating after 12 years to have to re-learn this! I removed my fingers from the sticks when i used rebound and god now i feel like I'm starting over but i am damn sure it's worth it Great tips!
Hi sjeggy6, I agree it can be frustrating and take a long time to develop, but once you do you should be able to integrate this into your playing and should notice general improvement to your endurance and groove. Cheers!
@@DrumApe it's going a lot faster than expected! 2 weeks in and I'm already getting up to speed but rediscovering a rebound feel and upping left hand strength... Man hahaha What is the biggest shame I'd that i went to a music school and graduated from it and in all that time my tutor never pointed it out to me when she taught me rebounds! But not holding the sticks when bouncing really limits the potential of rebound
This is great! Your explaination using the stick at shoulder height is a lot like the amazing JoJo Meyer's in Secret Weapons of the Modern Drummer. I feel like I'm finally getting a handle on this technique after watching your video and the old Jim Chapin doubles video, but I seem to always hit a wall at about 100bpm and cant make this go any faster. Guess i have to just keep working at it.
Thank you so much for your kind words, I am really happy people find this useful. Regarding the brick wall - I'd say there's a tempo at which there's a cross over point, where you have to switch to a different technique, as using the wrists becomes cumbersome at faster speeds. This particular video's aim is to reveal the importance of the upstrokes between the hits in getting the doubles to sound even. Let me know if I can help further and good luck!
@@pdxfunk Yes it's fingers but also you need to control the bounce the wrist have larger muscles than the fingers this is why you have to change to the fingers when you feel the wrist are starting to struggle.
@pdxfunk Yes definitely you need to switch to palm and fingers, but there's a catch - the fulcrum needs to remain solid and static, while the other fingers, like pinky and ring fingers, need to open and close respectively. The whole point is to harvest the bounce the stick wants to do all the while keeping the fulcrum static. I always tell my students, to think of each hit as something that happens upwards, not downwards. This way you're actually using the inertia of the stick, rather than absorbing it. It's really hard to explain in a comment, I hope this does justice.
@@DrumApe Thank you for the explanation. I think this makes sense. I will have to keep working at it! I definitely think I am getting the idea of the subtle hand drop that starts the tap at higher speed. Slowing your zoomed in video down on TH-cam is helpful for this! In the end, nothing beats practice though.. Sometimes when working on something, if I just come back again the next day, it comes easier! Thanks again for your help. I wish I had had a teacher like you when I was learning drums as a kid!!
u have a right grip, no hole between thumb and index.. but it still works? is it fine to not have the space? bcus i find it more easier not to have the space, what do you think?
I keep having this issue where my second tap dominates the first and I feel as if I'm using too much power in it. Makes it more difficult to make it sound relatively smooth when I speed it up a little. Anyone got any advice to combat this?
It's not easy to comment without seeing you play... but, it sounds like the main solution is to keep going, practice more and increase the tempo gradually... bc as you get faster and faster, it's nearly impossible to play the second tap louder... thus why the 2 notes start to sound more even. I also have an exercise that I made up for myself and students where you play 4 rights, then 4 lefts... for a while or just a couple of measures... then switch to 3 strokes per hand... and then switch to 2 strokes per hand. I also do (4, 2, 3, 2). The idea behind the exercise is to not think of doubles as a bounce... but get you to think of 2 strokes with one hand like 2 separate single strokes... the same as you would if you played 8 or 4 or 3 strokes on the right hand. For some reason we cheat the energy we put behind the 2nd stroke and make it lighter. So, lot so exercises get invented to combat this issue. All the best
A lot of the extra mechanics of the motion of a rebound stroke are natural. Get out of the way of the stick and practice individual double strokes without the roll and all of these motions will come naturally without feeling forced. This is why Buddy Rich always recommended the Rebound Stroke to all drummers of different skill levels.
I see a lot of Moeller technique influence here. I make it clear to my students that there are a few possible ways in matched grip to explore getting a double bounce stroke. The more popular way is to allow a second rebound by simply bringing the wrists back to neutral (extension) after a primary wrist stroke (flexion). Another way (like you said) is to use primarily the fingers in an open/close technique. I can see your approach in this video helping your students to free up their wrists--which is highly beneficial to getting that "ah ha" moment for doubles. However, in my experience it's easier not to teach beginners Moeller technique for doubles for a few reasons. 1) Inverted doubles are harder to play than regular doubles. 2) most beginner students will change the inverted accent to the first note especially at faster tempos creating uneven doubles. 3) The modern long roll changes technique at faster tempos and incorporates the fingers for the second stroke. However, the long roll (da da ma ma) written out in Sanford Moeller's book (Moeller book) doesn't mention anything about recruiting the fingers for the second note at faster tempos--yet most drummers that learn the long roll via modern day Moeller will utilize their fingers for the second note at fast tempos. Great for experienced players but not so easily absorbed by inexperienced students. BTW -this is just IMO/IME :) I also give you respect. Lot's of great nuggets and technique/approach shown in this video, Cheers!
Hi David, thanks for your extensive comment - I always appreciate structured constructive criticism. I’m seeing a pattern in the comments regarding my using of Moeller technique. This came as a surprise to me as I’ve mostly played Stick Control, Accents and Rebounds by George L. Stone and then Master Studies by Morello. Stone’s approach was always developing each wrist individually first and then putting both together. So it may well be that I’m having an “identity crisis” as far as my technique goes, but to be honest I’ve never believed that one technique could be the answer to everything. Rather, I’ve always tried to follow general guidelines to conforming to laws of mechanics and resonance (I have some physics and math background) - being friends with the laws of motion and not trying to fight them. From my point of view most people try to play with their hands, when they should be playing with the sticks. Hence their struggles with bounce. I think a lot of drummers and teachers have developed a natural feel for the bounce and assume this would come naturally to everyone else. But since I mostly deal with complete beginners - people who have never held a drumstick - I came to realise that they need a different perspective to make sense of rebound and resonance. This is why I focused on the upstokes - in an attempt to jump start the transition from arm and hand to the wrist and the fulcrum and finally the stick, as the biggest issue has always been, that when people try to relax and unlock the wrist, they also let go of the fulcrum. I don’t have a claim to any kind of technique, be it Moeller or not - I just want to help people by showing them the importance of the upstroke. Cheers.
@@DrumApe You're welcome! Moeller is associated with the upstroke/whip motion so I think purely from a historical perspective it's useful for students to understand that's what you are teaching them. Important to note that Sanford Moeller didn't invent this technique--he was simply the first to write a book about it and thus with the help of his student Jim Chapin the drum community adopted his last name for this technique. I totally agree with you that technique should be approached from a holistic view point and that all of the lineages of natural drumming technique have crossover. No identity crisis here but perhaps simply a little crises of the semantics since George L. Stone's technique was similar and perhaps more detailed than Moeller's but since Moeller was a little older his book (I believe) was the first to document the technique. I have a good article from vintage PAS that discusses history of Moeller, Stone and Gladstone. I can email it to you if you're interested.
@@DavidOLessons Interesting stuff. Well, turns out that while Stone and Moeller were contemporaries, Stone's Stick Control was published in 1936 while Moeller's "Instructor in Art of Snare Drumming" was released in 1927. Stone's father also was a drum educator and they had a school in Boston. So I guess both Stone and Moeller were first influenced by the Civil War soldier drummers and by their ability to produce high volumes for long without tiring. As Moeller's name is associated with the whip motion I guess any whip motion would inevitably be Moeller's technique. Either way, I think technique cannot be claimed, rather it can be discovered, as it all comes down to where physics and the laws of motion coincide with the limitations and capabilities of the human body.
@@DrumApe The roots of Moeller technique go back to Europe and I too think we need a better name for this technique, since like you said no individual can claim. On a side note I do think the drumming community would benefit from a standard set of clear principles that would enable an individual's technique to be discovered. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Cheers!
Thanks for the great tutorial, you have it sounding really smooth, strong & consistent. I was wondering if you could give some insight as to the different angle of your practice pad vs the snare drum in this vid? eg. pad sloping away from you & snare sloping toward you?
Hi Happy30yrs, yes that a great question actually. For years now I've been practicing stick control and other exercises standing up. Mostly has to do with this particular stand I got - the DW Go Anywhere. I found that it's easier on my back in general and also I conduct all my lessons this way - me and the student warm up standing up, then move on to the drum kit, where we obviously sit down. The angle of the practice pad works best sloping away from me as I am taller than the stand and this way the angle at which the stick hits the pad is minimal and therefore gives me the best rebound, but most importantly - keeps my wrists straight (at the time of the hit) and prevents my students' wrists from collapsing down, as many beginners I've seen do. Your hand is strongest when your wrist is straight and lowers the chance you might hurt yourself in the long run. So - better rebound and safety.
@@DrumApe Thanks for the explanation. I've been quite interested in this lately after noticing one of my favorite drummers Jose Pasillas (Incubus) adopting the snare drum (seated at his kit) sloping away from him. He plays matched grip. The only time I had seen this before was Steve Smith's set up & I assumed it was similar to the slope you would see traditional grip players using at times, to get the right angle for rebound & rim shots etc. The older I get, technique/safety & longevity play a big part in my continued journey of enjoying drumming. It's always fascinating learning new things.
If you are proficient with the double stroke roll should it be faster than singles? The problem is I have no bloody use for a double stroke roll until that is possible.
Hi Alan! Actually I think it's best if you practice doubles and singles at the same speed. Let's say 16 hits singles followed by 16 hits doubles. Then 8 hits singles, 8 hits doubles. Then 4 hits singles, 4 hits doubles. This is a concept from Stick Control and is genius, because it allows you to switch from one to the other, making the integration in your regular playing possible. Also, I think technically you should be able to reach higher speed using doubles, but in my experience and for real life applications, I think it's best to be able to reach the same speed with either sticking. I might make a video on this thanks for the idea!
Hi Stev, unfortunately no, as I've never developed the Traditional Grip. However, far better drummers than me have made tutorials on this. If you haven't seen them, I suggest Dave Weckl, Joe Morello and of course - Jim Chapin. Good luck!
Drumnoob here, what did you mean with the sentence about the inverted double stroke roll? Do I need to stress the second hit of every double stroke to make it sound even or do I need to play a inverted roll do make it even? Or both? Won't the normal double stroke roll not sound even if I speed it up? It feels rather unintuitive to me to accent the second stroke.
Hi Beatnous, stressing the secong hit of a double stroke occurs naturally in inverted double stroke roll. I think that is why it's the best way to practice. But the real secret is the upstroke between each hit as that's how the roll happens. You should practice all forms of double stroke regardless though, it's just something you have to do so much that it becomes natural to you. Hope that helps, cheers!
@@DrumApe Thanks for your answer. So if I play a normal double roll and stress the second stroke I might get a similar outcome to using a whipping motion when I play the roll accenting the first stroke?
Hi gkcook63, I'm really not the person to ask about drum line. To my understanding these sticks are much heavier and robust. Maybe look at thomann.de (if in EU) they have pretty much everything. Good luck!
I just sent you the exercises via email. Not sure why the link didn't work, sorry about that. The files are jpegs so they should easily open with lots of applications.
As many of you rightfully noted in the comments, this is Moeller's technique. This came as a surprise to me, as I've mostly played by George L. Stone's "Stick Control", "Accents and Rebounds" and then Joe Morello's "Advanced Studies", all of which I highly recommend if you didn't know about them already.
However, I think the Moeller's technique, which deals with a three stroke cycle, is only a part of the video. To me at least, the Moeller's technique comes into play at faster speeds, where rebound can dictate the consequential movement of the stick, using the leftover energy produced by the first hit. But in my experience of teaching mostly complete beginners - people who've never held a stick before - Moeller's technique could only be applied once you've developed your wrist motion and learned to unlock it without losing grip of the fulcrum. Hence, I wanted to break down in detail the initial stroke itself, by showing the importance of the hidden upstroke involved. Advanced players might not find this useful because they have developed their sense of rebound and resonance, as well as control over their wrists so long ago, that it becomes natural to them and they assume everyone should be able to pick it up.
In my opinion, technique cannot be claimed, rather it can be discovered, as it all comes down to where physics and the laws of motion coincide with the limitations and capabilities of the human body. Let me know your thoughts in the comments. Cheers and thanks for watching!
You're absolutely right. A technique is not the property of someone but rather created by the need of a person. There have been many times in a lot of different arts and sports were people have been using a certain technique that came to them naturally and discovered later that the technique they're using has already a name and was used by someone first and they had absolutely no idea.
There are a lot of ways to play on the upstroke and the downstroke, and there were a lot of drummers before Moeller wrote his books.
@@Sol_Badguy_GG José Luis Quintana “Changuito” has stated that technique comes to you naturally with slow practice and time
@@onebadhombre7158 I don't know who that is but technique comes to you when you need it.
George L Stone's stick control was my go to book I learned my rudiments from.
Never saw such a comprehensive explanation like this one on the subject. This is a treasure. Tk you so much.
Thanks for your kind words, means a lot.
This video helped my doubles almost immediately! I would love for you to show some techniques that help with fluidity around the kit :) I am your fan from now on and my biggest learning resource as your explanations dive deep and focus on details. As we all know the Devil is in the details and you've helped me so much already and I've only watched 3 videos and found out I'll need to re learn my singles first then move onto doubles. Also Kick pedal video was amazing !! Keep doing the great job !!
I’m coming back to drumming after a 20 year break. My left hand is awful, just awful. Working through my rudiments and building my hands back up along with limb independence. This is a phenomenal refresher on the double stroke roll. Thank you so much.
Welcome back!
Bro, you're **LITERALLY** telling my story. It's actually embarrassing how much atrophy I've experienced in my left hand. The stick is constantly slipping out of my pinch because my "drumstick" muscles (both sides of the thumb at the hand) is non existent anymore. I'm super pissed at myself but not letting it stop me from getting back. It's gonna take a solid year of pad practice to get anywhere close to where I was in my 20's.
I've also got tons of motivation now as my son (11yrs old) is now playing and taking lessons. We'll do it together!
So glad, let me know if I can help
@@akrause2004, it get better. I had the same issue, extreme weakness especially in my left hand. Problems dropping the stick while trying to maintain a loose grip. You really have to slow yourself down and build it back up. I have four kids, mortgage, the whole midlife deal so practice time is sparing. I’ve still been able to get a good amount of confidence back with only four hours or so of practice a week while also trying to explore some new ideas. Just enjoy being back on a kit. My wife had to remind me that I’m not going pro and this is supposed to be fun. 😂
In the same boat as you!
I’ve been paying for online drum lessons and this right here is the BEST explanation I’ve seen so far for doubles. And totally FREE! Thanks so much for sharing this with the public. Excellent teacher 👍🏽
Wow! Thanks for the kind words!
FINALLY! This explanation for double strokes, is by FAR, the best one out there! I know, because I’ve seen ‘em ALL! So thank You for this video!
Wow thanks Richard, that really means a great deal to me!
Listen man you have really got something here. I have never been successful at the double stroke but I am still a decent drummer. This explanation and technique is the best I have ever seen. Thank you for making this video.
Thanks Uhhhchris?, that really puts a smile on my face! Good luck and cheers!
Best double-stroke roll tutorial I've ever seen.
Best comment I’ve had in awhile
@@DrumApe I mean it! can't wait to watch the rest of your videos, now that I've found this gem!
I’ve never had this explained to me better. This is the best example and explanation I’ve ever seen… and I teach drums for a living.
Thank you so much.
Thanks Zachary, that means a lot to me.
Very well done this method has proven to be one of the best, I'm re learning it after many years of not playing the drums.. I appreciate I appreciate people putting things like this on TH-cam it really helps a lot of us out thanks again
You are welcome, Mike Ingman!
Having never had actual drum lessons, I've struggled with double-strokes the 20-ish years I've been playing in terms of getting them powerful and even. Until right now I never once heard about inverting it and accenting the "double" to dupe being even. That's brilliant and I am only 39 seconds into this video. And I guess about 5 minutes away from running off to my kit.
It takes some time but once you get it it’s for life. Just remember to pinch with the fingers while keeping the wrist open and you should be fine. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like the technique of this double stroke roll and it's application to beginners. It seems exaggerated but it fully explains how it works and how to get it faster with complete control.
So glad you said that, thanks!
I would like to congratulate you on making a 5 minute video that is only 5:35 long. Too many of these instructional videos have 3 minutes of useful content but are 8-12 minutes long. Oh, and thanks for a great video. Can't wait to start working on this!
Hi Matt, thanks! This one turned out very compact and complete at the same time.. thanks for watching!
This is the most comprehensive I have seen the technique explained. I will use the example terminaology with my students. Thank you! "STAY LOOSE" :)
TOP OF THE LINE MAN !! (This is for beginners !! Unlike a few other beginner videos I saw). You are amazing but man, the way you explain things in detail, the very best videos on single and double stroke from 50 that I watched so far !! THANK YOU for demystifying it !
Hey Dominique, thanks so much for your kind words! I am very glad you found this useful, thanks for watching!
@Drum Ape keep 'em coming Mr Ape, I loved the one on how to improve high hat sound ! Simply amazing watching how clear and humble you explain things !! Very grateful with your help, support and time dedicated to the videos. 20 yr guitar player with 2 weeks of drumming at 53yo haha
Very Good Tutorial on stick control. I'm 69 years old, returning to playing drums after a 50 year Hiatus for FUN and a Hobby in Retirement. I am simply grateful to keep the beat and offer some enhancements to fills while playing MY MUSIC (Old , Basic Rock ). Took lessons (maybe 10 or so ) back in 1966. I play by ear and do not read music , other than basic drum measures. I do need to practice more to attain at least half this speed..... THX again. Be safe all and Enjoy the Drums...
Hi Aldo, thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you saying that because a lot of people said it was Moeller haha. I encourage you to dig deeper into reading more complex drum notation as well as other styles like latin and fusion as that would surely make you a better drummer. Keep rocking!
Great in depth instruction. My best explanation is "bounce it twice on each hand". Stick control and height. Muscle memory. Practice, practice, practice.
That's about as detailed as I've seen. Very well spoken and just plain professional if u ask me. Thank you Drum Ape
Thanks Kevin, really appreciate that!
This is one of the best doubles videos ever!!! Thanks!
Hi One Bad Hombre, thanks for the great comment! I am very glad you thought so. Cheers!
@@DrumApe I play my doubles by using the push-pull technique. As I go faster, my wrist motion lessens and my arm motion increases slightly. I move my arm slightly forward/down to initial the first bounce. I then use my fingers to bring the sticks in for the second bounce. Is that correct?
Great video. Mentioning that many don't relax their wrist after the second stroke was a good observation I believe that's exactly what's keeping me below 160 bpm, been at that barrier for awhile now.
I think so too, if а muscle is constantly contracted it gets strained and becomes numb, loosing all feeling and control. It can take it, but for short bursts. Cheers
Wow what a great and thorough explanation of technique. I subscribed instantly. Thanks
Thanks, Nick! I appreciate that!
I bet the the 6 people who disliked this video use French grip (thumbs up), and could not use this technique.
Incredible break down... THANK YOU for this!
Hope I didn’t disappoint them too much lol.. thanks for watching!
Wow - this is truly awesome. My double strokes are terrible, but your method here is so easy to understand and very logical. I can't wait to start shedding tomorrow! Thank you so much!
Hi Kenny, it makes me so happy to hear this. Don't rush it, give it time and consider stretching before and after practice sessions. Good luck!
As a new drummer I’m practicing very hard at learning these techniques. I practice at least an hour every day, but I feel like I’ve hit a wall. This is the best video I’ve seen so far at showing the exact technique. Can’t wait to try it out!
Hi Brian, that is way cool I am so glad to hear this, let me know how it goes!
@@DrumApe thanks for the reply! Quick question. Actually, two. My shin muscles get sore after about 20 mins of playing. Am I hitting the pedal wrong? Also, what two crash cymbals would you recommend for a rock music? I have a 16” fast crash and an 18” fast crash, but they don’t sound great playing (or trying to play) classic rock.
Hi Brian, yes you might be overdoing it, or if you started playing more recently it might just be stress on the muscle, but if it gets unbearable you should see a doctor or stop. But try to unlock the ankle and not use too much force and you should be fine.
Rock crash and projection crashes are best for rock and heavier stuff, some brilliant crashes also. Fast crashes are thinner so not very loud. Cheers
@@DrumApe okay thanks! Yeah it’s just muscle soreness, just wasn’t sure if it’s normal or not. I imagine if I keep playing, that muscle will get in shape.
Hi Brian, yes with time it will be stronger. Just don’t rush it.
Better known as the Moeller stroke 😁
Explained by the greatest... The one and only, DrumApe 💙💛💙
Aaand you’re back! Thanks Subie Gal!
@@DrumApe glad to see you back too 💙💛💙
Thank you, this is the best video I’ve found. Right now I just bought a drum pad and I’m looking for exercises to practice. Sadly, I broke my thumb and have a cast. but I’m excited to take it off so I could start practicing
So sorry for your thumb.. When the cast goes off, take your time and slowly build it up.
Wow this is so well explained, it made so much sense to me. I cannot wait until I get home later and start doing this - thank you SO much I love your videos 👍🏻
Amazing words Martin, thanks
Great explanation to someone still trying to get it tighter. Thanks man. Keep up the good tutorials for us !
Hi Joe Wallman, thanks for saying that, keep working on it. I got ideas for a couple more videos so shouldn’t be too long. Cheers
Hey this is the video if anyone here wants to master double stroke or anything else for that matter.
I watched other videos but this one is for me.
Recommended to anyone .
I could practice these for 5 years and still suck at drumming. Thank goodness there’s folks out there who know what the hell they’re doing 🙏🙏🙏
Outstanding demonstration and tutorial. Thank you!
Hey Jace Van Riper, thanks a lot!
What a great video. Never saw an explanation like this. Thank you so much!!!
Hi Tim, thanks for saying that. Cheers!
I'm about a month or 2 into doing doubles practice like this almost every day for 20 minutes or more and finally getting some good doubles! For some reason my weak hand (left) "Learned" how to unlock and snap the wrist over years of doing little doubles here and there on the snare, but my strong hand (right) just did NOT want to let the wrist unlock to get the "pop" needed to get these doubles to work. I have finally powered through this issue though! It really does pay to take it slow and work your way up.
Absolutely. Just keep at it.
@@DrumApe for sure! And I know I've said it before but this video is the best on TH-cam for this topic! Cheers man!
So well explained! Thank you. As a beginner I've watched so many videos on techniques I should be practicing and the more I investigate, the murkier it gets. This video has really given me a clear exercise to focus on where I can see the benefit. Thank you.
You mentioned push pull technique is similar but needs to be explained in a different video. Would you consider making a video on this too!? :-)
I’m so glad this video helped you, so nice of you to say.
Push pull technique should definitely be a topic for a future video, although I don’t feel I’m proficient enough with that particular technique, at least not as good as some other people’s videos I’ve seen on TH-cam. But I’ll think about it, thanks for your comment.
Excellent tutorial mate..thanks for the great technique 👍
Instantly subscribed! If I do decide to get deeper into drumming I’m buying lessons here.
Very kind of you, thanks! Let me know when you do.
OMG! That was very very useful for me!! Thank you so much for sharing this with us🙂 Actually I can able to understand clearly... After seeing this video instantly SUBSCRIBED🙂🙂🙂
Hi Kartheeban, I am so glad you liked it and very kind of you to say so.
😊😊Actually I can very clearly able to understand what u are saying!!
AGAIN THANK YOU BROTHER!! 😊
Exactly what I was looking for! Thank to nail on the explanation
Very happy to hear this, thanks Zammis.
You sir, just got a sub.
Thanks for the great video! I've been playing for over 20 years and keep trying to improve my basics, this is a great exercise to add to the arsenal! Cheers!
Very precise method of explaining skills
Thank you, G.J. I appreciate it!
You a really helpful,
I like the way you explain the subject.
If you keep on doing this, you will have alot of subscribers.❤God bless❤
Thank you, Peniel Lupain, that's very kind of you.
really great demo,all the details are there.
Hi Vincent, many thanks!
Thank you for sharing! Liked/Subscribed/Shared...Happy Drumming 😃
Thanks a lot! This video was really helpful for me in learning to play double stroke as I was struggling with it!
Hi Gloria, so glad to hear this! Thanks for saying something :)
Great breakdown. Subscribed.
This is the holy grail 🙌🏻
Just wow! Thank you very much. I wish I saw this vid like 20 years earlier haha
Never too late my friend, we’re all in the same boat :)
You can also do double stroke roll using rebound. Rebound is when you drop something solid on for example a table it jumps few times and the jump height decreases and decrease and you may also see it jumping faster when the jump is lower until until it's stable and doesn't jump again, depending on the material, it can be strong or weak, if you drop something like a stick on a table it will keep jumping and jumping until it stopped it's now standing on the table, so a hard material gives efficient rebound, so if you drop a stick on a pillow or a couch you don't get much rebound since both couch and pillow are soft, but when you play on a concrete, wood, metal or anything that is hard and solid you get a great rebound.
😂 you’re trolling me
Thanks brother! You demonstrate it very well so I can understand it🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏❤️
So glad to hear this, thanks Boo Bizzy!
Excellent video
So frustrating after 12 years to have to re-learn this! I removed my fingers from the sticks when i used rebound and god now i feel like I'm starting over but i am damn sure it's worth it
Great tips!
Hi sjeggy6, I agree it can be frustrating and take a long time to develop, but once you do you should be able to integrate this into your playing and should notice general improvement to your endurance and groove. Cheers!
@@DrumApe it's going a lot faster than expected! 2 weeks in and I'm already getting up to speed but rediscovering a rebound feel and upping left hand strength... Man hahaha
What is the biggest shame I'd that i went to a music school and graduated from it and in all that time my tutor never pointed it out to me when she taught me rebounds! But not holding the sticks when bouncing really limits the potential of rebound
Sounds great man, in a couple of months you’ll be flying
For me it's helped thinking in "paradiddles" but accenting certain parts. Like this: parAdiDLE. Or, easier to think, one AND two AND.
It’s a pretty good idea
This is great! Your explaination using the stick at shoulder height is a lot like the amazing JoJo Meyer's in Secret Weapons of the Modern Drummer. I feel like I'm finally getting a handle on this technique after watching your video and the old Jim Chapin doubles video, but I seem to always hit a wall at about 100bpm and cant make this go any faster. Guess i have to just keep working at it.
Thank you so much for your kind words, I am really happy people find this useful. Regarding the brick wall - I'd say there's a tempo at which there's a cross over point, where you have to switch to a different technique, as using the wrists becomes cumbersome at faster speeds. This particular video's aim is to reveal the importance of the upstrokes between the hits in getting the doubles to sound even. Let me know if I can help further and good luck!
@@DrumApe I see. I think I understand this. When going to faster speeds, would you say it is more palm and fingers instead of wrist then?
@@pdxfunk Yes it's fingers but also you need to control the bounce the wrist have larger muscles than the fingers this is why you have to change to the fingers when you feel the wrist are starting to struggle.
@pdxfunk Yes definitely you need to switch to palm and fingers, but there's a catch - the fulcrum needs to remain solid and static, while the other fingers, like pinky and ring fingers, need to open and close respectively. The whole point is to harvest the bounce the stick wants to do all the while keeping the fulcrum static. I always tell my students, to think of each hit as something that happens upwards, not downwards. This way you're actually using the inertia of the stick, rather than absorbing it. It's really hard to explain in a comment, I hope this does justice.
@@DrumApe Thank you for the explanation. I think this makes sense. I will have to keep working at it! I definitely think I am getting the idea of the subtle hand drop that starts the tap at higher speed. Slowing your zoomed in video down on TH-cam is helpful for this! In the end, nothing beats practice though.. Sometimes when working on something, if I just come back again the next day, it comes easier! Thanks again for your help. I wish I had had a teacher like you when I was learning drums as a kid!!
This has been such a help, especially with my left hand, what practice pad are you using ?
Hi Vapeoren, I’m using a DW practice pad “tree”. Had it for a long time. Pretty sure there are other alternatives by now.
u have a right grip, no hole between thumb and index.. but it still works? is it fine to not have the space? bcus i find it more easier not to have the space, what do you think?
อธิบายได้เคลียร์มาก very good
ขอบคุณมาก!
Such a perfect advice❤️👍
Hi Jakonish, thanks!
This really helps me
Superb video, thanks
So nice of you.
Thanks
A melhor videoaula de todos os tempos...
O melhor comentário de todos os tempos!
Subscribed. Amazing breakdown.
good quality video. thank you
Excellent explanation 🤩
Hi Sandun thanks!
I keep having this issue where my second tap dominates the first and I feel as if I'm using too much power in it. Makes it more difficult to make it sound relatively smooth when I speed it up a little. Anyone got any advice to combat this?
It's not easy to comment without seeing you play... but, it sounds like the main solution is to keep going, practice more and increase the tempo gradually... bc as you get faster and faster, it's nearly impossible to play the second tap louder... thus why the 2 notes start to sound more even. I also have an exercise that I made up for myself and students where you play 4 rights, then 4 lefts... for a while or just a couple of measures... then switch to 3 strokes per hand... and then switch to 2 strokes per hand. I also do (4, 2, 3, 2). The idea behind the exercise is to not think of doubles as a bounce... but get you to think of 2 strokes with one hand like 2 separate single strokes... the same as you would if you played 8 or 4 or 3 strokes on the right hand. For some reason we cheat the energy we put behind the 2nd stroke and make it lighter. So, lot so exercises get invented to combat this issue. All the best
Thanks for your great video!
Very helpful! 🥁👍
Hi Dusty, I am so glad you think so! Thanks!
A lot of the extra mechanics of the motion of a rebound stroke are natural. Get out of the way of the stick and practice individual double strokes without the roll and all of these motions will come naturally without feeling forced. This is why Buddy Rich always recommended the Rebound Stroke to all drummers of different skill levels.
Great explanation
Thanks MrFatdaz!
I see a lot of Moeller technique influence here. I make it clear to my students that there are a few possible ways in matched grip to explore getting a double bounce stroke. The more popular way is to allow a second rebound by simply bringing the wrists back to neutral (extension) after a primary wrist stroke (flexion). Another way (like you said) is to use primarily the fingers in an open/close technique. I can see your approach in this video helping your students to free up their wrists--which is highly beneficial to getting that "ah ha" moment for doubles. However, in my experience it's easier not to teach beginners Moeller technique for doubles for a few reasons. 1) Inverted doubles are harder to play than regular doubles. 2) most beginner students will change the inverted accent to the first note especially at faster tempos creating uneven doubles. 3) The modern long roll changes technique at faster tempos and incorporates the fingers for the second stroke. However, the long roll (da da ma ma) written out in Sanford Moeller's book (Moeller book) doesn't mention anything about recruiting the fingers for the second note at faster tempos--yet most drummers that learn the long roll via modern day Moeller will utilize their fingers for the second note at fast tempos. Great for experienced players but not so easily absorbed by inexperienced students. BTW -this is just IMO/IME :) I also give you respect. Lot's of great nuggets and technique/approach shown in this video, Cheers!
Hi David, thanks for your extensive comment - I always appreciate structured constructive criticism. I’m seeing a pattern in the comments regarding my using of Moeller technique. This came as a surprise to me as I’ve mostly played Stick Control, Accents and Rebounds by George L. Stone and then Master Studies by Morello. Stone’s approach was always developing each wrist individually first and then putting both together. So it may well be that I’m having an “identity crisis” as far as my technique goes, but to be honest I’ve never believed that one technique could be the answer to everything. Rather, I’ve always tried to follow general guidelines to conforming to laws of mechanics and resonance (I have some physics and math background) - being friends with the laws of motion and not trying to fight them.
From my point of view most people try to play with their hands, when they should be playing with the sticks. Hence their struggles with bounce.
I think a lot of drummers and teachers have developed a natural feel for the bounce and assume this would come naturally to everyone else. But since I mostly deal with complete beginners - people who have never held a drumstick - I came to realise that they need a different perspective to make sense of rebound and resonance. This is why I focused on the upstokes - in an attempt to jump start the transition from arm and hand to the wrist and the fulcrum and finally the stick, as the biggest issue has always been, that when people try to relax and unlock the wrist, they also let go of the fulcrum.
I don’t have a claim to any kind of technique, be it Moeller or not - I just want to help people by showing them the importance of the upstroke. Cheers.
@@DrumApe You're welcome! Moeller is associated with the upstroke/whip motion so I think purely from a historical perspective it's useful for students to understand that's what you are teaching them. Important to note that Sanford Moeller didn't invent this technique--he was simply the first to write a book about it and thus with the help of his student Jim Chapin the drum community adopted his last name for this technique. I totally agree with you that technique should be approached from a holistic view point and that all of the lineages of natural drumming technique have crossover. No identity crisis here but perhaps simply a little crises of the semantics since George L. Stone's technique was similar and perhaps more detailed than Moeller's but since Moeller was a little older his book (I believe) was the first to document the technique. I have a good article from vintage PAS that discusses history of Moeller, Stone and Gladstone. I can email it to you if you're interested.
@@DavidOLessons Interesting stuff. Well, turns out that while Stone and Moeller were contemporaries, Stone's Stick Control was published in 1936 while Moeller's "Instructor in Art of Snare Drumming" was released in 1927. Stone's father also was a drum educator and they had a school in Boston. So I guess both Stone and Moeller were first influenced by the Civil War soldier drummers and by their ability to produce high volumes for long without tiring. As Moeller's name is associated with the whip motion I guess any whip motion would inevitably be Moeller's technique. Either way, I think technique cannot be claimed, rather it can be discovered, as it all comes down to where physics and the laws of motion coincide with the limitations and capabilities of the human body.
@@DrumApe The roots of Moeller technique go back to Europe and I too think we need a better name for this technique, since like you said no individual can claim. On a side note I do think the drumming community would benefit from a standard set of clear principles that would enable an individual's technique to be discovered. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Cheers!
This was awesome. Cheers!!
Hey Jess Vera, thanks a lot! Cheers :)
Thanks for the great tutorial, you have it sounding really smooth, strong & consistent.
I was wondering if you could give some insight as to the different angle of your practice pad vs the snare drum in this vid? eg. pad sloping away from you & snare sloping toward you?
Hi Happy30yrs, yes that a great question actually. For years now I've been practicing stick control and other exercises standing up. Mostly has to do with this particular stand I got - the DW Go Anywhere. I found that it's easier on my back in general and also I conduct all my lessons this way - me and the student warm up standing up, then move on to the drum kit, where we obviously sit down. The angle of the practice pad works best sloping away from me as I am taller than the stand and this way the angle at which the stick hits the pad is minimal and therefore gives me the best rebound, but most importantly - keeps my wrists straight (at the time of the hit) and prevents my students' wrists from collapsing down, as many beginners I've seen do. Your hand is strongest when your wrist is straight and lowers the chance you might hurt yourself in the long run. So - better rebound and safety.
@@DrumApe Thanks for the explanation. I've been quite interested in this lately after noticing one of my favorite drummers Jose Pasillas (Incubus) adopting the snare drum (seated at his kit) sloping away from him. He plays matched grip. The only time I had seen this before was Steve Smith's set up & I assumed it was similar to the slope you would see traditional grip players using at times, to get the right angle for rebound & rim shots etc.
The older I get, technique/safety & longevity play a big part in my continued journey of enjoying drumming. It's always fascinating learning new things.
Great vid dude, did you ever make the second part hinted in the video?
Hi deathruddles, this video is actually the second part to another video about double stroke roll I made. It comes up as a card during this one.
@@DrumApe ah sweet, so you cover how to do the wrist finger bounce for faster doubles in that vid?
@@deathruddlesdeathruddles5438 It's about how to make diddles, or double strokes, also a bit about fingers:
th-cam.com/video/nV7YpFJRuKU/w-d-xo.html
@@DrumApe fantastic dude! Really struggling with doubles/diddles! That vid looks perfect. Thanks for the content!
Great video!
Hi Kevin, thanks!
Great breakdown!
Hi Makhach, thanks for saying that!
If you are proficient with the double stroke roll should it be faster than singles? The problem is I have no bloody use for a double stroke roll until that is possible.
Hi Alan! Actually I think it's best if you practice doubles and singles at the same speed. Let's say 16 hits singles followed by 16 hits doubles. Then 8 hits singles, 8 hits doubles. Then 4 hits singles, 4 hits doubles. This is a concept from Stick Control and is genius, because it allows you to switch from one to the other, making the integration in your regular playing possible. Also, I think technically you should be able to reach higher speed using doubles, but in my experience and for real life applications, I think it's best to be able to reach the same speed with either sticking. I might make a video on this thanks for the idea!
Great lesson! 😍
Thanks Juliane :))
Well said!!!
Only valuable if there's someone to say it to :) thanks for watching and stay safe
Thanks for this bro
Hi Jey, you're welcome.
This is great. Thanks👍👏🏽
So glad you liked it!
Could you make a traditional grip double stroke roll tutorial?
Hi Stev, unfortunately no, as I've never developed the Traditional Grip. However, far better drummers than me have made tutorials on this. If you haven't seen them, I suggest Dave Weckl, Joe Morello and of course - Jim Chapin. Good luck!
Drumnoob here, what did you mean with the sentence about the inverted double stroke roll? Do I need to stress the second hit of every double stroke to make it sound even or do I need to play a inverted roll do make it even? Or both? Won't the normal double stroke roll not sound even if I speed it up?
It feels rather unintuitive to me to accent the second stroke.
Hi Beatnous, stressing the secong hit of a double stroke occurs naturally in inverted double stroke roll. I think that is why it's the best way to practice. But the real secret is the upstroke between each hit as that's how the roll happens. You should practice all forms of double stroke regardless though, it's just something you have to do so much that it becomes natural to you. Hope that helps, cheers!
@@DrumApe Thanks for your answer. So if I play a normal double roll and stress the second stroke I might get a similar outcome to using a whipping motion when I play the roll accenting the first stroke?
Yes pretty much. It’s the same motion really. Only difference is the relation of the accent and the on or off beats.
@@DrumApe Thank you very much, really appreciate your effort.
What size/brand of stick do you recommend for drum line
Hi gkcook63, I'm really not the person to ask about drum line. To my understanding these sticks are much heavier and robust. Maybe look at thomann.de (if in EU) they have pretty much everything. Good luck!
Wow thanks
Very Nice!
This is great!!!! Now how about the Single Stroke Roll???
Oh a challenge! I have to see if I can do a well enough job. Lots of videos on the subject, need to find something everyone’s missed :)
A detail Lesson awesome
Hi Bum Tube, thanks!
wow this is so informative
I made a donation, received the link, but was unable to open it. ??
Getting on it right away
I just sent you the exercises via email. Not sure why the link didn't work, sorry about that. The files are jpegs so they should easily open with lots of applications.
@@DrumApe All set, thanks Georgi!!!!
Great Video !!!!
Damn... subbed.
Sleep on it was good advice because the subconscious mind resets everything at night, provided you hit it hard the next day, for 45 minutes.
Sir, how many days should you exercise?
Depends.. as many as you can
Nice!
Hi Joe F, thanks!
Nice clean, concise, well written and edited video!
But please don't ask me to like it or give you money before I've even seen it. :v
Superb 👆🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻 i like it
Thanks Govinda Halade!
Tank sir
You're welcome, Chathura
Cool video
Thanks, Abaris!
EXCELLENT BEAUTIFUL AMAZING SUBLIME INMORTAL 🎼 🥁 🎶 🎵
awesome. liked and subbed
Thanks T Lonto, I appreciate that!
Brilliant
So kind of you
Phenomenal instruction!
I appreciate that, thanks!